Australians at War Film Archive

Well I was born at Cumnock, and I spent most of my early days there, in fact was sent to boarding

school here in Orange, at the age of 8 to what is now Kinross, and was then Wolaroi. And I spent 3 years there, and then went down to Kings School at Parramatta. And then here at the University and then I joined up. That’s it very briefly.

Well I didn’t go to the public school there cause my parents thought that boarding school would probably be better. I think it’s good to get us away, give my mother a break. I had an elder brother, who was only 15 months older than I was. And that was great playing together and doing things together. And I suppose it’s just usual country life. Bit of shooting, hunting and I was

very keen always on tennis I played a fair bit of tennis, and as you say the recall is not there yet.

Well we had our own property, and my father ran that, with the assistance, at that stage I think he had two men. As time went on they dwindled, and now my son runs it without anybody,

or he and his wife do it all. They get, there’s so much contract labour nowadays, that you manage that way.

Well I didn’t really notice the Depression, I can just remember tramps coming round and my mother giving them a hand-out of some sort, and but there was always a interest to us to know why people

had to walk round begging. And I can remember one chap, who whether he thought that my mother hadn’t given him enough, he told her very convincingly that I’d be just the right age for the next war, he was right.

Well I don’t know if we really appreciated the significance of it. It wasn’t so much that they were begging, we just sort of assumed that it was their natural right that they could walk round and ask for food on their way, cause they had no other means of transport, walking.

I thought so.

There’s the telephone.

Well it was certainly a wrench in those days to be taken out of your

home and left behind at school. But they did come in pretty regularly, we were only 40 miles away and I think they come in at last once a week to see us, so we got by. And there were quite a few of our friends doing the same thing from properties around about. So I suppose we had them to commiserate with and do things with.

I think we were nearly, not far past the cubby house stage. And I can remember building a cubby house on the school grounds, I don’t know whether that was appreciated, but we had a bit of fun doing it. We were just a bit too young to play much active sport, I think the 2nd year I can remember an athletics carnival. But I wasn’t in, there weren’t any football teams or cricket teams, there weren’t enough of us, I think there were only 15 children

in the prep school at that stage.

I think every summer, friends started to get away to the beach for a break, probably a fortnight or 3 weeks I think. And we’d go down to Cronulla or Collaroy something like that. But apart from that it was life on the land,

that we enjoyed and horses and just enjoying our own company and making fun as it came along.

I think actually playing tennis was one of my

greatest outlets. My brother was a terrible keen shot, he used to go up hunting rabbits and digging out rabbits. I quite liked that but I wasn’t as avid as he was. And I think I was probably a bit of a nuisance, I was the younger brother. I liked bike riding, I used to ride around the district quite a bit. We had people lived out, Baldry, I think that was about 10 miles away, and I

occasionally rode out to see them and back again. It’s a bit hard to remember off hand, if I’d have written them down I could have probably told you.

Totally different outlook. One was fairly relaxed and down there it was, the discipline was

fairly strict for a young fellow, and cause you were compulsively put into teams to play sport, which was great. And sport became a big part of your school life. And I suppose the education part of it, I can’t compare one to the other except that from such a small class we had at Wolaroi, down there probably 20 or 30 in a

class.

Well at Kings school they had a monitor system. And the senior boys were responsible for the discipline and an individual could make your life a bit unpleasant if he wanted to, and so I suppose that was

where the discipline came in. The Masters were all fairly much in the background. I don’t think their discipline worried us much.

I don’t think we knew it, I just think we thought it was, my parents had been there before me. We just thought that I suppose that,

not our right but it was going to happen anyway and that’s all we considered.

Well you had to play cricket in the cricket season and rugby in the rugby season, and I enjoyed them both. There were a few other side sports that came along later

that you didn’t have to play, for instance squash, well it wasn’t squash it was a thing called sides. I don’t know whether you know that as concrete quoits, a bit like squash. Swimming was another activity you had to participate in, athletics I think they expected you to run even if you couldn’t. I think that’s about the

extent of the sport.

Yes well as you got older, the cadets I think were only started, I’ve forgotten the years now, would be about 2 year that you went into the cadets, and then you gradually worked your way up into, if you were lucky enough you became an officer in the cadets.

It was very good discipline and it set me, was a help to us when we joined the services, we were just that much ahead of the others that hadn’t had any army training or drills. At the time we could have done without them, but they did prove useful.

Well there was a

bit of rifle shooting, and we went on camps. I remember we went into the scrub down there at Narrabeen and I think we joined in with other schools at that camp, if I remember correctly, and they’d send you out on exercises to find your way back again through the scrub. Different sporting competitions while they were

there. I remember 2 or 3 chaps from other schools that I remained friendly with, for quite a long time afterwards.

Well just that Kings school was a cadet school, it had its own cadet force and always had. I don’t think

all the other GPS [Greater Public Schools] schools had their Cadets. They possibly did when the war started, they might have started them then. But I think we were the only school that had its own uniform. You wore a uniform all the time. I can’t think why else they had it except from a discipline point of view.

Well my father was in World War I, he was at Gallipoli, and he was wounded. And although he would never talk unless you directly asked him, I suppose we learnt a bit from that. My mother’s two brothers were in the, one was in the army

he was a Brigadier, and the other one was flying he was an observer in an aircraft, and he was actually shot through the elbow. I suppose from ground fire I’m not sure. He was, virtually responsible I suppose for me going into the air force. He would talk about it a bit, he loved flying. He actually then had a parachute factory later on in life, which kept up

his connection with flying.

Well there again he didn’t talk as much about his own exploits, as about sort of general things that went on. I don’t think he talked so much about his own flying as with the politics behind flying, which was a little above my head anyway. But

he knew some of the people who had been in charge of the air force, and I think he had disagreements with them. And he was partly responsible for the Air Force Association, that they formed, I think during this last war Wand it’s gone on now. We have a branch here in Orange that, is that chap, the last one you interviewed, not last one but Alfred he’s the Patron.

I think it was possibly much as we expected. A lot of nervous tension, that was a bit later on. Learning to fly was just great fun

and you were fairly much hand fed, and it was just a great thrill to get into an aircraft and be above the ground I suppose. That was where you started to meet so many people and enjoy their company.

Well I’d have been at school, and I think then we were lead to believe it’d all be over very quickly and it wouldn’t involve us. I just can remember the reports of different victories or defeats that came back to school and we’d feel fairly apprehensive. And then people that we knew

their deaths would be reported back at the school, that was a bit frightening, ’cause we knew then it wasn’t going to be all fun, it was a danger added to it.

I think we all wanted to be part of it. I don’t know whether secretly behind it you were hoping it might be finished and you wouldn’t have to go. Everyone wanted to be part of it, and they hoped I think that you could get into the service of your choice, and some of them couldn’t get into the air force and went and joined the navy or the army. And quite a few of the chaps that went into the army

got out of that and got back into the air force. I think they thought the life was going to be a bit more fun.

I can’t really remember, I just remember going, I think enrolling depot in Sydney. I think I met

the fellow in front of me and I think we stayed in contact for many years, cause we were put in alphabetical order, and his name was Perry and mine was Reynolds so we were close together and we said hello to each other.

Well they wouldn’t have stopped us,

although the only restriction that they put on me was that I was doing dentistry, and but if I passed they liked me to go ahead and finish my dentistry and to graduate. I think this was a way of trying to stop me joining the services. And I didn’t pass all subjects, I had to carry one subject and that gave me the let-out to join the air force. But my mother particularly

was very worried about it, she had two brothers in the First World War and a husband. Although they came back, Dad was slightly wounded, she was apprehensive.

No I think they really took it for granted that that’s

what I would do. I was too young to join when I left school, hence the year at university. And I used to see a lot of the uncles who had flown, and I think he just took it for granted that I’d join up. And when I went to England he gave me quite a few contacts to see over there, and that was a big help.

No I think we went down to Bradfield Park, which is, what’s the suburb it’s near, Lindfield. And

we caught a bus and went in and I think that Iwas a bit apprehensive, knowing just what you were going to find in there. But there was no flying with Bradfield Park, it was purely training, drills and then basic instruction. And I managed to get quite a good bit of fun out at Bradfield Park, we used to duck out at night and go through the fence and go to people we knew. And I think they probably knew we were doing it, as long as we weren’t

getting up to too much trouble there wasn’t much done about it.

I had an uncle that lived in the area, we’d go and see him. I was too young those days to have a particular girlfriend to go and see.

I think very quickly, being on your own you looked for someone to share your experience with and to do things with. A bit like coming home at night, if you came back and there was someone that you knew particularly well, you could discuss what had gone on, have your mess with them, perhaps duck out through the

fence with them and go to a picture or something like that. Not sure but it was very important to met up with someone that was your own type. Most of the boys that had been to similar schools and you might’ve met them before playing rugby against them. There didn’t seem to be any problem in getting to know people.

I’m just trying to think, there was this John Perry…..

and a couple of others that went to the same school that I did. And I can’t think of their names, who were there……if I’d written down prior to this I’d probably could’ve thought of a few, but I didn’t keep a diary at that stage, so I haven’t got any recall,

who in particular they were.

You had to have a certain standard if I remember correctly. At least the Intermediate Certificate. And I think most of us had probably done the Leaving Certificate, so it was no problem. But I think they would take you even if you

hadn’t completed the Leaving Certificate and it was a big help. There was quite a lot of school work, in navigation…… and I can’t remember all the subjects, but mathematical subjects mostly.

Well I think everybody wanted to be a pilot,

and it was just a matter of which aircraft, probably all wanted to be fighter ppilots. Then some were restricted because of their physique that they couldn’t be pilots, and they probably wanted them to be navigators, it was the second most important thing. And then you probably wouldn’t’ think anymore about what you’re going to be until you were classified

to be a bomber ppilot or a fighter ppilot. And if you were classified to be a, twin engine or bomber ppilot you probably wouldn’t decide whether you were going to be a gunner or a bomb aimer, and you’d wait for them then to post you off to wherever they thought you should go. They being the authorities.

Well the one thing is you’re in solo charge, was your own responsibility, and of course the thrill of it and the speed. I think although you had to fly in formations and those sort of things, it was probably being an individual that appealed to most people.

My brother was a fighter pilot, so I naturally wanted to be one too, but it didn’t work out that way.

Anyway that’s going back a long way. He never discouraged me, he

enjoyed the life. And I think he probably gave me quite a lot of useful hints of how to, what to expect and what not to expect, and what you could get away with, what you couldn’t.

Hmm, well it wasn’t all that hard for me, I’d

been a boarder at boarding school and then I had a year at university, which I was at a college, so the living part of it wasn’t that much different. We were used to being taught by Masters and therefore the discipline came into it. I think the hardest thing is possibly where you had someone who was

over zealous and we thought they were perhaps expecting too much of us and you’d resent that a bit.

I’m not sure how to answer that except that….

in the perfection of what you did, it’s the drilling and you’d think that you were probably fairly persistent at it and they would expect some more. But this is I think just the mentality of the, someone in charge if you they want to push the students as far as they could get them.

Very well, from a drill point of view, we were already probably as good as drillers as those that had been in the air force for 6 months or more. And therefore, and the education side of it was fairly easy for us, we were able to cope with the maths side of it.

No there was no trouble in that regard at all.

I think we all wanted to go to England and then go from there. But there was an Air Training Scheme and that you could do part of your training in Canada and then go on to England. And I think we all thought that

that would be good. But I wasn’t in the course that went to Canada, and we went from Bradfield Park to Narromine, which was close to home and that suited me fine. My brother had been there and that’s where they decided whether you’d be a twin engine or a fighter pilot. And my brother went down to Uranquinty on fighters and I went to Point Cook, on twin engines,

and that suited me quite well in Melbourne. I had relatives down there that I could go and see there, and seemed a very pleasant spot, nice fellows.

I don’t think he particularly wanted to go and fight in England he wanted just to see England. If you had to be in the air force, which was what we wanted to be,

you might as well go to the best place. England seemed to be the optimum for seeing things. I think we’d probably hoped that the worst of the war was over by the time we got there.

I’d been bought up very much as an Empire

person, and that meant a lot. And we tend to think of ourselves as English and then Australian, ah Australian and then English, and so the logical thing to do was to fight for them.

The first flight I probably can’t remember too much. You went up with an instructor, and he just showed you a few things, but the exciting and perhaps a bit frightening part was the first time you went solo. And this is what we all aimed at, there’d be a big smirch on your reputation if you couldn’t go solo, and so the thrill of the

whole air force was when that instructor got out and said “Right you’re on your own”. You took it off and flew round and came back in again all in one piece. And then as you went on the different aircraft the same thing would happen, you would be given a flight with your instructor and then when he thought you were proficient he’d say right you’re off on your own, and that really was an exciting moment.

I’m not too sure about this, but I think 6 hours is about the minimum, and I think if you went up to about 10 they decided you weren’t suitable for being a pilot. The difficulty there was it depended on your instructor a lot, was to how

soon you went off. Afterwards I felt that I was being very slow getting off, I think I got up to 9 hours and hadn’t been sent solo. And I realised then by talking around that I had a very nervous instructor and he was being super cautious. But eventually I was sent off solo, and then I got to the other aircraft, down at Point Cook on the Airspeed Oxfords I had no trouble at all,

I was one of the minimum hours to go solo. So that gave me a certain amount of encouragement, I felt that the other instructor had just been a bit too cautious.

Well there must be fear there, but I think the excitement and the adrenalin

overcome it. You’re so pleased to be given the opportunity to do it, to prove that you can do it.

Um, there was some, I don’t know how many, they didn’t seem to think that any

abnormal number when we were training. But yes I can remember accidents on every instance of training, for one reason or another. One chap I can remember he stupidly, he was too big, and he got his foot caught, and he did get out of it, but I mean that was how an accident could have happened, he was being instructed and his foot jammed

underneath the rudder control. I rather think he might have been in the air force with a little bit of persuasion from higher up, ’cause he certainly wasn’t physically the right shape. But he wanted to be a pilot.

I don’t think there was any real stand up. Not sure about height, I think you had to be a certain height, and just generally fairly physically fit. They made sure you were fit. There was quite a lot of physical training as part of the course, and swimming. You’d go out, when we were at Bradfield we used to go out and have a swim across the river. All things that we enjoyed doing, but they were

part of the making sure you were fit.

Well they were all geared around things that you needed to do for flying. At that stage you sort of had basic navigation, ’cause you weren’t quite sure, what part you were going to

play. And even if we were a fighter pilot, you had to be able to navigate probably more so than the navigator for a Bomber, ’cause you didn’t have the time at your disposal. But weather played a big part in flying so you had to study the weather. You didn’t do anything with languages ’cause

we didn’t know where we were going. But it was just sort of a basic education as far as I can remember.

Well you’d got to Bradfield Park because the elementary, what did they call it…. Elementary Flying Training School that was Narromine.

Bradfield Park was just, I suppose that was where we were tested to see what we were suitable for. And from there you’d probably…. that’s would be right because from there the pilots went to Narromine and the air gunners went elsewhere, so it would be fairly soon on in your training that you’re classified.

Well one of great relief, because that’s what you aimed at. You’d probably had some mate who’d already got their selection as a pilot. I think that’s all just relief and I don’t think it would have mattered much if we have been made a navigator or bomb aimer, obviously the pilot was the main aim.

Well they were Tiger Moths, which were two open cockpits, one behind the other. And the instructor was in one,

and you had a little communication chute between you, and they were noisy and you had to swing the propeller to start them. The instructor if I can remember correctly would be sitting in his cockpit with the switches and he’d signal to you, and you would pull the propeller down and that would,

I suppose ignite the fuel and your engine would start. We had to make sure that the aircraft had the chocks in front of the wheels otherwise it might’ve rolled forward onto…. But most of that started pretty well, I can only remember one case where there was a bit of a problem. We were out on what they called the Satellite Aerodrome, they had paddocks that they’d taken over

from different farmers, ’cause you couldn’t all fly from the main ’drome and you’d go out to these Satellite ’dromes to fly. And out there this day and one of the pilots, he was about to take off and he swung his aircraft down and it would have hit a tree if he’d gone any further, so he had to get out and I think I was waiting to go up next. So we had to drag the aircraft back and then re-start it. And

we were very keen for it to start that time otherwise we would have been in trouble for having had to stop and engine anyway, with the possibility of running into a tree wouldn’t have been good.

Wonderful very insubstantial I suppose. You were exposed to the elements, you didn’t feel all that safe. And you had a

harness on and if you got to a stage of acrobatics, it was just the harness between you and falling out, and that took a little bit of getting used to. But it was a great experience, with the wind flowing past and the noise.

Well not until you got a bit more

proficient. I think the course was divided into two halves, and I can’t remember how long we were there, probably a couple of months I think. And probably the second month you’d be onto the more experienced flying, doing cross-countries. We flew to different places round NSW, we actually landed here in Orange and Mudgee, and at that

stage you were probably getting up to do aerobatics such as they were. They were fairly elementary I think, I don’t think there was anything, no slow rolls, but or were there, no I think it was loops and that’s about the end of it.

I didn’t know about that.

I know there were some foolish pilots who used to shoot up their friends. I think they felt that they were being friendly and giving them a cheap thrill. But there’s a couple of instances where chaps I knew were killed being stupid. One particular chap, I think sort of in front of the family that he was trying to show off to.

But details I can’t remember I can just vaguely remember where it was, I wouldn’t like to mention there names anyway.

It’s never going to happen to me. That’s the attitude you take, and

I think you were sad for the person but it doesn’t really worry you that much. I think that’s the only attitude you can take.

Then again I didn’t see many, apart from the one I was involved in.

I think I saw a collision once, and that was frightening, ’cause it was in the distance and we didn’t know whether they got out of it, we found out later, but that was frightening and worrying. There was one chap taking off and someone landed on top of him. And the reason I’m not all that worried, I think they must’ve

both got out of it.

There again you didn’t have to prepare yourself, except I suppose mentally. The transition was all,

catered for by the air force, they made sure the transition was easy, and didn’t seem to be any problem at all. Again you go up with an instructor, and possibly the first time you went up with him, you thought how can I manage these, they’re so different. I think, I suppose everyone’s got a sort of natural ability and it’s just a matter of them finding it. I think anyone could be a

pilot if they wanted to be, there’s no doubt.

I was going to say noise, but that’s not necessarily so, ’cause the Tiger Moth being out on the open it was fairly rowdy, and not quite so manoeuvrable. The Oxford that we were

flying Airspeed Oxford they were fairly manoeuvrable, but the other aircraft that you were sent onto on twins was called an Avro Anson, and they were so more cumbersome, and I think the difference in flying the Tiger Moth and then getting on to them might have been quite noticeable. But the Oxford was fairly manoeuvrable and didn’t seem

to be a bother. You were able to fly them reasonably easy, but by the same token they weren’t as safe as the Anson, I suppose because they were a bit faster and you had to treat them a bit more circumspecting.

Oh yes, definitely. It was one of the aims that you’d missed out on,

but it would only be a personal disappointment, I mean you knew that you had to do whatever you were told to do. And when I say fighter pilot, I should have said single engine pilot, I suppose, cause there were Twin Engine fighter pilots, the Mosquito for instance. So that wasn’t lost to me I still thought oh well perhaps I could fly one of those or, there were other aircraft like a Baltimore,

that were fast and manoeuvrable, and would have been in keeping with the glamour, that we were looking for. But once you’d been told that you were going onto bombers well then that was, you had to get used to the idea then that it was going to be a heavy aircraft that’s not so manoeuvrable.

Don’t know if they thought about me being a good bomber pilot. Later on I was assessed after having flown different aircraft, and I always got a fairly good assessment, and I think it’s how you get on with your crew,

they probably give you a rating, if anyone wants to find out they would ask the crew “What do you think of your pilot?” And responsibility I think, the fact that you’re going to look after an aircraft and the people in it. They seemed to be able to assess that, and the single engine then, may have been picked for a different reason, they might have been more carefree and

perhaps not quite so responsible.

Not a bit, no, that’s a slight on our ability to the extent that they thought we were more suited to be bombers rather than fighter. But then I think, I know that some of the fighter pilots, who I don’t think would have been good bomber

pilots, they weren’t pacient enough for one thing. But whatever was decreed we had to follow, make the most of it.

Well unless you were

scrubbed, was the term that we used, if you were told you were no longer able to work. You really didn’t have an option, you joined up and you had to do what you were told. I don’t know of anyone that said “I can’t go on with this”, perhaps there were and they might have been put into a different category,

on ground staff or something else. But their records wouldn’t have been made public, not that I know of anyway. There were others their nerves gave way and they were sent home from service areas, particularly in the Middle East and that sort of thing. And whether they were made known to the public, I wouldn’t think so. But I’m just reading a book now by Bobby Gibbs, do you know?

Well in that he refers to a couple of chaps who could have been sent home as LMF, I think they call it, Lack of Moral Fibre. But that would have been devastating if that had happened to you and yet something perhaps you couldn’t have helped.

No again I think I was excited and they were fairly easy to fly, they were manoeuvrable. But we’d been warned not to do too much with them, they were aerobatic, and they had the reputation that if you got them into a spin they were very difficult to get out of.

And you heard of the stories of people that had got out of it, but I’m not sure that they were accurate. And you could side-step them, that’s what just what it sounds like, and I know one day I came around at the Oxford that I had and I side-stepped it to lose height and get down. And

when I got out of the aircraft there was a bit of plastic lying on the floor of the aircraft. And I thought I don’t remember that being there when I got it, and then I realised I had blown one of the side windows in, just through the air, so obviously I pretty well didn’t do the proper step, or I’d over-extended the aircraft.

No ’cause I was back on down and safe. I suppose I reported it and we’d have said that had just fallen out. And there are lots of things that you did in the air force that you think of afterwards that you worry about a bit. I can remember one day, not long after I’d gone solo, I was on the ground, gunning up the engine,

and the door at the side somebody knocked on it, and you open the door and it was a ground staff fellow, and he said, “I want to go over to one of the Satellite ’dromes will you take me over?”, and I said “Oh yeah hop in”. And so I took him over and someone told me after that the repercussions of that if I’d have had an accident could have been tremendous, ’cause he was an unauthorised personnel. I wasn’t a qualified pilot at that stage, but you just don’t think of those things, it was good

fun to be asked to drive someone somewhere, or to fly someone somewhere.

Youth?

Well I think your reactions are so much better the younger you are. And possibly you haven’t got family ties at that stage so you’d don’t have the worries that an older

person would. So youth must be a great help.

No not that I can recall. An uncle, this same uncle that I told you, had got me

a Irving [?] suit, which was a fleecy lined suit, and they were very sought after. And I didn’t like to go up without that, but that was just a, it wasn’t a nervous thing so much as just he’d given it to me and I liked to have it with me, and it was warm too.

Well as far as I can remember they were quite comfortable. I’m not sure what heating they had in them, but I think it was in the summer we were flying, so it would have been heat rather than cold that we were worried about.

And the engines themselves I don’t think they ever overheated or had those problems. And I don’t think they frosted up, which was, or iced up, which that could have been a problem in the middle of winter.

I expect we followed it with the news. I don’t think we wanted to know too

much about it, we had our own lives to look after and we’d, our careers had sort of forged for us by the air force. That was enough and just hoped the war would end in a favourable way for us. I don’t think any of us were heroes in any sense, we just hoped that

we could be there, but we also, still be there at the end of it.

Well you could get into Melbourne and there were theatres. And I had a friend I used to met at one of the hotels in Melbourne, we’d have a couple of drinks

before we went to stay at the relatives. And I think we’d got to theatres, oh we went swimming. We used to like to go to the surf, when we were in Sydney, which I thought Melbourne didn’t have so much of the surf, but we would go swimming. Much the same as you do nowadays I think. We spent a bit of

time in the pubs meeting the other air force fellows. I can vividly remember one fellow who eventually taught me to drink. His name was Curly Schofields, he came from Bourke his family run a pub out at Bourke, and he was just the sort of person a young man needed to be taught the ways of life.

Don’t think he survived, he was killed.

Well what to drink and what not to drink I think. And possibly which woman to avoid, I can’t remember those details but…..Mostly how to get on with people I think, that was not to take people too

seriously otherwise you could get yourself into a brawl very easily. And he had a great attitude on life, that anything that wasn’t important you just let it slide by, but anything that was really important well then you get stuck into that and see if you can sort it out.

Well each area that you went into there was usually one or two characters, I suppose you’d call them. I think we were a bit too occupied

and a bit too busy to create any trouble. I can’t think of any particular person who got into serious trouble. Later on in flying, I’ll mention an incident where we could have got into a lot of trouble, by disobedience. But then again we were having fun and disobeyed the rules.

What?

What did I think of that?

Well that would have been at Point Cook,

when we graduated there. We got our wings at Point Cook and that was probably the proudest thing we could do. The first sign that you were going to be a pilot, and you also got your rank at that stage, whether you were going to be an officer or a sergeant. Terrific relief, the fact that were going overseas, was just

part of the sequence of events that if you got your wings well then you’re going to be, and graduating on twin engines as we did, that we’d probably have to England to fly. Well the thoughts of being away from home I suppose, but I think they were clouded by the excitement of getting away, and going overseas.

Oh yeah, no they were very good

in that regard.

Well I went back to the property, and I suppose I helped on the farm I suppose, doing things that I enjoyed doing. And I think there were a couple of parties, I think that my mother had a party and we probably played tennis. I can really remember my brother’s

final leave more than mine, that’s because he was killed and you know the memory came back to me. My own I can’t really remember much at all.

Well just friends gave this party and they had 2 or 3 air force fellows there,

they knew of, that had done well in the air force, and I think, we were all in awe of these two blokes and I sort of felt this is what my brother’s going to do. Was proud for him, I can just sort of remember at the table and it was laid out and these fellows being there, I can’t remember the exact details.

I think we got on the boat in Sydney and went around to Melbourne, I don’t think we called at Perth though. I think being on a troop ship was probably the more worrying part of the whole of the service, because you felt so vulnerable.

There’d been the odd ship that had been sunk, and I think we were on a pretty fast ship, the Stirling Castle I think it was. It had been a cruise ship and it was fairly fast, so it didn’t have an escort, it went on its own, they thought its speed was safer than being held up. And apart from the fact that life on the cruise ship was great fun,

there was always that little feeling there that there could be a submarine about.

Well the usual sport deck, I suppose the games we’d play, and we played a lot of cards. There was quite a lot of drama on the troop ships, the rumour went round that one of the officers broke up the

gambling school, and there were a nasty crowd of individuals in this, I think they were South Africans were on board, some South Africans I don’t know how that happened, but they weren’t a very pleasant lot. And the rumour went round that this sergeant who broke up the gambling school was never seen again. But I believe that sort of rumour went round a lot of troop ships. I hope it’s not right.

Oh at that age, quite comfortable. Bunks one above the other, which weren’t all that comfortable. The food was the, possibly the biggest problem, it was fairly basic and you can imagine having to cater for that number of men, it got a bit monotonous. I think if I

remember correctly we got to know one of the stewards and he used to hand us out an officer’s dinner every now and again, which helped considerably. When I say stewards, that’d have been a low ranked army bloke of some sort.

sergeant pilot.

Well I suppose the fear was kept in your mind because you had drills very regularly. And so you knew there was a possibility, otherwise you especially wouldn’t be doing the drills. Well that kept it in your mind,

I don’t think anyone, there was no fear shown by anyone, I think it was just a personal thing that you had that worry. And I think being cooped up on a ship you felt more vulnerable than you would in the air.

Well much the same as a passenger ship now days. You had to put your lifebelt on and

get there within a certain time when alarm whistle went. And I think they had lifeboats there, they’d lower and you had to be ready to get into one, that’s all I can remember of it. But I think it was partly to keep you fit, you know you had to get out there quickly and then they’d probably give you a

few exercises while you were there. Just part of air force life I suppose rather than shipboard life.

We were supposed to be below deck I think at night-time. But I know

when it got hot, some of us used to go out and sleep up on deck, which was alright except that, again this comes a bit later, but coming home we came through the Panama Canal and a friend and I did that, and I think that’s where I got malaria. But apart from that the shipboard life was great.

Durban in South Africa. And we again had, we went into a camp, so you didn’t stay on the ship, and it was great. You could get into Durban very easily and we had a great time there. Just sightseeing, swimming and people were very good to us, I can remember we went to a hotel for lunch,

three of us air force fellows, and a family at a table not far away, sent the waiter over to take our order and that he would pay for it. I think we kept in touch with them for a very short time, for a little while. And I had some relatives in Durban or a family connection and I went to see them a bit, which whiled away the

time. But like all troops on ships, some of them misbehaved a bit there and the local police, I think some of them were jailed, possibly all harmless fun we think now, they thought it was over the odds.

Well we hadn’t seen the colour problem before until we got there, and that really took a bit of getting used to. I think we accepted it as their way of life in South Africa, we weren’t all that sympathetic as we should have been. When they were on trains, well the crowding was

unbelievable, their methods of transport and I think at that stage they weren’t allowed, they were only allowed on their own train, and they weren’t allowed probably on the trams, had to leave that for whites. And it was just the sort of thing we had to adjust to, you were probably getting lectures before you went to shore, on how to behave.

Yes we went up the West Coast of Africa and we called in at Freetown, and that would be the worst place to live in the world that I know of. Boiling hot, mosquitos and we stayed on the ship, we weren’t allowed ashore and I don’t think we’d have wanted to go ashore. The only relief

there is, the little boats that came out selling goods and you’d throw your money over in them, and they’d either flung it up or some of them had a rope that they’d get it up to you. And I can’t think what we bought now, I think baskets or something like that, that we could send home.

Hmm. I’m not sure, but however we picked up a whole lot of, in Durban we picked up I think some Free French and I think those poor creatures got off at Freetown. I think we had some army on as well and the ship was full, but I’m not quite sure what the,

20,000 seems to come to mind, but that sounds an awful lot. I probably got it in my diary but I couldn’t tell you.

Not much, you didn’t really try to mix with the other people. The Free French obviously because we didn’t speak French.

And they seemed to be, an incessant lot, where I think they’d been forced into service and whatever they were doing and they were being sent somewhere they didn’t want to go. There again we were only looking after ourselves and we were having a great old time.

I played a lot of cards, and there was a bit of gambling as I say, but anyone that was wise stayed clear of that. We started a, little gambling school of card game, I don’t know whether it was (UNCLEAR) one of those games and one chap one night, one of our friends said, “Do you know, were just taking each other’s money” he said. “This is silly” he said, “Its causing ill feeling,

the chap that loses is unhappy” he said. “I think it’d be better if we cut it out”, and we did, and he was very wise. And it was moving to a situation where we were getting annoyed with each other. But we played a lot of sport there was a lot of basketball type things, what do they call it, deck quoits, oh deck quoits, wasn’t so much of that, but deck tennis and that was great I played a lot of that.

I think they had films, they did, I think you had to queue up for that, and if it was your turn you didn’t miss it no matter how bad the film was.

We went out, again I think without escort, I’m not sure we might’ve picked up a convoy then.

And we went out and around Ireland, and came back in at Grenoch at Scotland, and that’s where we disembarked. And that was an entirely different scene too, the weather was something we hadn’t seen the dullness of it all, and the thousands of birds that seemed to be wheeling round.

We weren’t there for very long, we went almost straight on to the troop train, went right through England right down to Brighton.

Well that was pretty exciting because we were billeted in one of the best hotels in Brighton, that used to be the resort of the wealthy, in peace

time. I can’t think of what the hotel was now, and the hotel Brighton ’cause the food was not the standard it used to be, but the accommodation was good. And there were lots of things to do there, there was an ice skating rink, theatres. I met two of my old school friends, I got photos of them there, one was a,

no they were both navigators but I ran into them there and spent quite a bit of time together. But while we were at that hotel, the buzz bombs were going over. And that was a little bit worrying, the alarm would go off every now and again and you were supposed to go down into cellars of the hotel. ’Cause there was a woman that used to broadcast for Germans, for t Germany,

and I can’t think of the name of this now. But she used to put over these comments we know the Australians are at Brighton we’re going to bomb the hotel soon, isn’t that silly I can’t remember her name now, but she was obviously just doing it for the German Broadcasting Station to frighten the life out of us. Brighton was a great town, there was the

Glass Palace there, that Henry the 8th had built I think, that was something that we had a look at. Oh and we used to ride bikes up and down the coast, we’d go down to Hove I think was the next town and that was fun. And we did a bit of training, physical training, I think we had a few lectures.

It had been cleared away pretty well, it wasn’t as frightening that you might have imagined. Nothing like London was, and even that had been cleared away, a lot by the time we went up there. There again I suppose we’d read so much about

it, and seen it that you were prepared for it. And the people seemed to be living a sort of normal lives. We went to dances and met some of the locals, they didn’t seem to be all that frightened or worried, but I suppose they had been.

Strangely enough there were little coffee shops and that sort of thing that you’d go and have a morning coffee and that made life seem as if it was normal. There weren’t many tourists, I suppose that’s to be expected but the place would be full of tourists if was peace time. There were quite a lot of

people who were keeping watch on the coast, you used to see quite a lot of that, they had a name which I can’t remember now. And we talked to them occasionally, and they’d probably fill us in on what had happened, and what had been shot down and what hadn’t been shot down.

When you first heard it, you thought gee they know everything about us, and then you realise it was a fairly paltry bit of news anyway. I don’t know how she got the news but it was pretty logical that we had to be billet somewhere and it was probably going to be in these empty hotels.

There were three or four big hotels along the waterfront and they were all full of troops that were being billeted waiting to go somewhere.

No, while we were in Brighton we were sent away on a leave. I think they called it a disembarkation leave

and we had a club that would get the names of people who were willing to have Service people for a weekend or a week. And they did a tremendous job, they allotted us out to all these different people, and a very good friend and I said we’d go together, and we went up to Scotland and stayed with a Bank Manager in a town called

Sterling. And he was wonderful to us. Fed us well and looked after us, and that was great, and he‘s still about that fellow, I hadn’t though of him he still lives down at Cronulla. But the Bank Manager he’d have died long since he was elderly then when we were there. We did pick up with one other fellow that we didn’t really want his company.

He asked could he come with us. It rather spoiled it for us, cause he didn’t have our interests, he wasn’t a sporting sort of a person, he preferred to go to the films than go and watch a game of rugby or something like that.

Yes

He got a Land Army girl,

and she was as good as a man, she was very strong and terribly loyal and she helped him nearly all the war. Then she met a local man, property owner, married him and they stayed there for many years. She died about 5 years ago up in Newcastle. But he managed with her, and he’d get help, the neighbours all bucked in and helped each other.

What when I came home do you mean?

Oh yes, yes no she lived in the house with us actually. Very straight forward sort of a person. My mother didn’t mind having her in the house at all, she helped, used to do her own laundry and washing up and that sort of thing, and

helped Dad with the work outside. There was Land Army, was an institution that you could apply to, and he was lucky that he got this very good girl.

Well I think he’s brother was on the property next door, it had been a big estate and Dad bought part of it. So having his brother and his family there life went on much the same I suppose.

But this Land Army girl her name was Minerva. Between them they managed and got everything done, I think he cut down on the unnecessary work.

I think I was but only for a very little while, and I think that was bought on by what we ate and drank rather than by the rolling boat. I think we had a bit of a party in Melbourne on the way through.

Yes we were just looking at it then, and

it was a real league of Nations, there were people from every country on board. And there was one English Solider who’d been on a charge of some sort and he was in custody, and one of the Australian Air force chaps that I knew quite well had been ordered to look after him as a Guard. And about 2 days later this bloke disappeared, never to be seen again. So we don’t quite know whether he jumped over on purpose or whether he

escaped and is still in the hull of the ship, not sure. But those incidences, a bit like the gambling one I told you about earlier. That sort of thing did happen.

I think we

did but only very briefly, there were enough of our own group to occupy most of our time. And we’d play cards amongst ourselves, and sport amongst ourselves, and I don’t think we’d have had a great deal in common with the others, apart from the language difficulties. The Englishmen didn’t seem to want to talk to us. I don’t think they were

aircrew, I think the English people were soldiers on board, so they probably had a different outlook to us all together.

Well I suppose

basically in Australia we had a very nice uniform, much more attractive than the English one. ’Cause their material wasn’t as good as ours. And the fact that you wore wings, I think showed to the world that you were a qualified pilot, and that meant quite a bit to you, you’d passed you exams and you’d been able to pass the training, qualify. And I think it was just applied in what you’d achieved and then flying

had always been rather glamorous hadn’t it, I mean there wasn’t that much flying done in those days.

Well I was just reading in that little diary that we used to go to dances, local dances, and to the ice skating rink, and it was very easy to get a girl to talk to. I got quite friendly with one girl, and I think I went back to her home, whether that was the uniform or not, I’m not sure. She was a good skater.

And I should think that all my friends had much the same experience with the girls there.

Well the air force that I ran across the morale was very high. Later on the air force out here had its problems. I’m just reading this book of Bobby Gibbs, given that he explained a revolt, that actually concerned me a bit in that my brother was involved. But I think generally the

attitude was good, no one was fishing to resign. Except this incident in the book that he tells me about and that was coming right from the top. I can mention it now I suppose the incident was these men felt that they were being sent out on trips that were of no value. That the Japanese were confined in certain areas and they were still being, out bagged for being sent out to bomb them and they were losing aircraft

because of weather and other reasons, and it was all unnecessary. And these five very top pilots, might have been more than that, threatened to resign. When they put their application in to resign their CO [Commanding Officer] at the time, well he’d be more than just the CO he’d be the Master of the air force, got legal advice and said that they couldn’t resign their commissions, that once you sign up for war that’s it you’re part of the

services, and you’ve got to stick with it. It was resolved, they didn’t resign in the end, I think they’d made their point.

Well at the time they kept Darwin very quite. I don’t think we ever got the full picture, and we were lead to believe, or I believe that it wasn’t the real threat, that it was more of a token attack by the Japanese. But obviously as things have turned out now, we weren’t told the truth, or we weren’t told the whole story, I don’t say it wasn’t the truth.

Things are repeating themselves aren’t they?

Yeah.

Well

I wasn’t compelled, it was a matter of joining the air force and going where they sent you. That was, purely that you had no choice. The only choice, some had, was that they went up into the RMO’s[Regimental Medical Officers] in the army and got a transfer to the air force. I know of a couple of fellows who did that. Or ones that went to the Middle East and then got out of the army and went into the air force, but I don’t know

how they managed that or under what circumstances they did it.

I don’t think we were aware of the threat, I think that was the whole thing. It was played down

and I say we just did as we were told. But possibly underlying it all we felt that we should have stayed here, but we didn’t get the opportunity to have a say in that. The only thing that I had any say at, was that when I was flying in Italy, my brother was killed out here in the Islands. My father applied for me

to come home, partly because I think there was a property to be looked after eventually, and he’d lost his eldest son. But I was sent home, but I think that was only because the war had reached a stage that they thought I wasn’t necessary in the Middle East anymore, in Italy, and they agreed to his request. Everybody was surprised that that did happen. And he

didn’t have any real influence that would have caused that, he didn’t know any politicians or anything else, it was just a straight out application. ’Cause when I passed it onto my CO and I said “My father has requested me to come home”, and I said “I don’t want to leave my crew at the moment we’re getting on well”, and he said, “Oh don’t worry about it”, he said “It will never happen”, and within two or three weeks I got a call to say I could go home. And typical air force

I went home via England and it took me 6 months.

I’m not sure that we expected much at all, there wasn’t much publicity given to it. Films were about all we had to go by, and

they were overdone, particularly if they were American. But I think we dismissed them as being not the real situation. Funnily enough to watch a film, I get more frightened than being in the aircraft itself. It just seemed that much more frightening when it was filmed than it was in real life. Perhaps because you were active and doing something. But that

is a feeling that was made very clear to me, that I can remember being in a theatre and thinking geez this is nerve-racking. And then I thought to myself well I’ve done that why am I worried.

Yes I think that we thought that the Japanese were more barbaric than the Germans in that point of view we’d be better off. But I think it was just the same old thing it’s not going to happen to me and you just put it out of your mind.

When we say the Japanese are more barbaric than the Germans were, one of my good school mates was shot down in a bomber. And he survived but his, three or four of his crew were killed by people on the ground, ’cause they thought they’d been, these are people that have been bombing us,

and he himself was saved by one of the local Security Police who just happened along at that moment and said, “You can’t do this sort of thing, you’ve got to…” took him into custody. So he was put in as a prisoner of war, but if it had been left to the people there, they were so angry that they virtually murdered these other fellows. I don’t suppose there’s much difference to what the Japanese did, and would they be any

different to the Australians.

Yes we did a refresher course.

I can’t quite remember at what stage of the career, whether we went there from Brighton but we went to Fairfax, which was a little aerodrome, it was known as the Kings ’Drome. And prior to the war he probably had a own pilot aircraft there. And we just did a refresher course on Tiger Moths, and it was wonderful fun. And at that time the buzz bombs were going over again, and one of our

friends, we were put on gun duty, they had gun emplacements around the ’drome. And we used to have to take our turn on duty, and one of our groups swears that he shot down a buzz bomb. But buzz bombs came over a certain distance and then their motor cut out and they would glide a certain distance and then bomb whatever was underneath it. We think it was just coincidence that as he fired this

machine gun on the edge of the ’drome, that the engine happened to cut out on the buzz bomb. He thought he’d done it.

I think we had to pull down our machine gun, see how it worked and put it together. Rifles of course we had to drill

with a rifle, but we weren’t every likely to use a rifle. We carried a small arms gun on some of our flights, but I don’t think I did while I was in Italy. I did in the Middle East, I used to carry small arms revolver. So we didn’t get a great deal of

weaponry training at all. We do a bit of shooting range work, but that was possibly as much for entertainment as teach us how to fire.

No, no, I didn’t do anything like that. But the thought was there that if you were taken prisoner you might have something to protect. But I think that would get you into more trouble than otherwise, if they saw that you were armed, they’d feel more at liberty to knock you about I think. And I don’t think a knife would,

it might help you at night-time I suppose, if it was your only means of escape. No we didn’t carry any weapons like that.

I think being shot down in a burning aircraft would’ve been the worst. But again you took the attitude it’s not going to happen to me. Apart from the training side of it with knowing what to do in a case like that, you tried not to think about it.

You would be well versed in how to get out with your parachute and, I can’t think of what other training we had. I actually was in an aircraft that crashed and we had to get out before it caught fire. But that seemed to be automatic at the time. I was first out, I don’t know whether that was because of the training or self

preservation, or I was just nearest the exit. I hope that’s what it was.

Yes well this goes back to training in the Middle East. We were training to fly Wellington Bombers, and I had an English instructor with me. And part of my crew, I don’t think we had the full crew

just enough to…. Engineer and perhaps a navigator. And the aircraft rolled, they’d been in service for a long while, and they were what we described as clapped out, they were finished, and they were being replaced by Liberators, and until that time they were using them for training. And this particular engine, this particular aircraft the engine caught fire and the

instructor he decided he’d do a forced landing on a Satellite ’Drome, which had a runway but no facilities. And it was a mistake in that there was, it was hard surface and it ignited the bit of petrol. The aircraft happen to be a cookie kite, which it was made to carry one very big bomb

underneath, rather than a whole rack of smaller bombs. And to carry that extra big bomb they had another tank of fuel, a petrol tank underneath the aircraft. And as he did his forced landing this tank ruptured and caught fire, had it been an ordinary aircraft that just had racks in, this wouldn’t have happened. See there was a bit of fuel left in this tank, and he did quite a good job of the landing,

but when we got down getting out was the problem.

At the time not so frightening, ’cause your so wrapped up in looking after yourself and finding out what’s going on. Afterwards the frightening thing was that we knew one burke hadn’t got out, and

your mind goes over could I have done anymore or what was happening. And that’s where I think I had to write to his parents and I did write, that was one of the nastier sides of it. But shortly after that we went over and got Liberators

instead of the Wellingtons and they phased out the Wellington. But a new Wellington was an excellent aircraft. It was just that these had exceeded their serviceable hours.

Yeah.

Well that was when we were doing this refresher course at Fairfax, which is the ex King ’Drome. And there were three of us particularly good friends, and we were sent up just to stay in an area and practice our flying.

And we got out of the way a bit and we flew over, nearer to London, and when we got there we discovered we were right in the middle of the blimps or the little balloons that were protecting London. And so we realised we were in no man’s land as far as we were concerned, so we did a hasty retreat and went back again. And that afternoon we went up again and this time we were to do aerobatics and just

general flying, which we did and we did a mock dog fight amongst the service. And again we realised that we’d gone out of the designated area, and so we broke that up and went back to the aerodrome. And when we got back to the aerodrome, there was a message for us to report to the CO and they said, “Oh my goodness someone from London has reported us for flying over that area”, which was very dangerous and pretty

stupid to do. So we went into the CO and he said, “I believe you people have been flying out of the area?”, and we thought thank goodness that’s all he’s caught us for, no one has reported us for flying over London. And we said, “Oh I suppose we did”, and he said, “You three friends?” and we looked at each other and said, “No”, it’s a silly thing to own up to or not, are we all going to get into trouble together. So we said “Well yes as a matter of fact we are good friends”, and he said, “Well that’s good ’cause”, he said

“Mr so and so from down the road, whose a very wealthy merchant from London would like you to come to dinner”. So the three of us had a lovely night out and admired the CO’s tact, I mean he’d frightened us enough without having to punish us, and one of the nicest highlights.

I think it’s the same thing that goes on now even with school children. It’s the fear of being caught or the excitement of nearly being caught you do things. I don’t think we’d have done anything that we thought was foolish dangerous, till we realised we were right

out of our area, then we realised that we’d overstepped the mark. But that wasn’t going to hurt anybody that prank, I don’t think. Perhaps the dog fighting we might’ve hurt each other, but again just the dare-devil element that interested us.

Oh well I suppose you just get behind the other bloke and

fly as close to him as you can before he can move out of the road. But very basic and very amateurish, but I suppose tested our flying a bit to try and get out of his line of fire, if he’d had a gun.

Well that was the only flying we did from this little area in Fairfax and the weather was beautiful, I think when we were there. Or if it was bad they wouldn’t send us up because we were only getting experience, it wasn’t as if it was necessary. But when we got out to Italy, we arrived in the middle of winter and there was snow everywhere and the airfield became boggy, you’d bog your trucks going down. And if you got of the runway you could bog

your aircraft. That was unpleasant and I think that one or two aircraft didn’t find their way back because of the nasty weather. In fact that was probably much more a danger than enemy fire, either from aircraft or from the ground, it was the weather that was the problem.

Well where we were involved with the Brits, very well. We didn’t have a great deal to do with the run of the mill Englishman, the sort of average Englishman. But one little instance that really did impress us,

this friend John Perry and I went on a bit of a trip one weekend and I think we went to Manchester. And we’d missed our bus and missed our train, and we, I think we were waiting for a bus and we started to talk to a very modest type of English solider who was a private and obviously didn’t have much means. And after we’d been talking to him for a little while, he said, “Where were we

going that night?” and we said, “Well we don’t really know, we had to try and get accommodation somewhere probably in a YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association] or something like that”, he said, “Oh no you don’t you’ll come back and you’ll stay at my place tonight”, and we said, “Oh that’s very nice of you, but don’t bother”. And when we went back his house was so small that he had to take the washing off the line, it was over the dining room table, for us to go to sit down to eat.

The house was, as modest as you could get, and yet this bloke insisted that we went back and shared it with him. And I thought that was one of the nicest things that could have happened between the allies, I suppose you’d call it.

We did see a lot in London. Obviously there were vacant blocks and that sort of thing. But they’d tidy it up so well that it didn’t impress you as much as it would have if you’d been

there soon after it. Rationing was very hard for the English people but we didn’t notice it so much. I can remember going up, someone said, “I’ve got this little restaurant that serves steak”, and we went how wonderful and we all ploughed along and had a really good feed. And we asked someone afterwards, “How can they possibly sell steak when nobody else has got it?” And he said, “Oh that’s horse meat”. It was delicious.

So they made do with whatever they could find, I don’t know whether that was legal or not, I doubt if it was. We didn’t suffer food-wise, we had plenty to eat, perhaps not what we would have chosen but. Not as bad as in Italy, where at one particular camp

in an old hotel again I think, and in the mornings the local women would queue up with their pannikin, after our scraps, even our leftover porridge. And I mean that really brings it home, how some people had to live when the war affected their food supply.

Yeh, oh yes probably a Flight Sergeant though.

Well it was an automatic rank once you became a pilot and you became in charge of a crew. And then when I was on operations in Italy,

we’d only done a couple and the CO of the squadron said, “Would you accept a Commission if you were offered one?”. I thought that was a funny question, I said, “Yes of course I would why not?” and he said “You Australians are funny blokes”, he said, “Some of you won’t accept a Commission”, and I said, “Well I’d rather like the perks that go with it”. So not long after that it was gazetted and came through before I left the squadron.

No that’s alright I was going to say that none of my crew were commissioned, the odd occasion was that a sergeant pilot could have been captain of the crew and he could have had an officer navigator, just they’d set up a crew that way. Which was a bit difficult because the pilot is the captain of the aircraft, and so if you had a senior officer under him it

could have been a bit embarrassing.

Yeah. I think we went to Cairo, Alexandria I suppose we landed and

then went onto Cairo, and then from Cairo we were posted to a place called Qastina. And that’s where we learnt to fly Wellingtons. And that was where I had this crash, with the instructor and one of the crew didn’t get out. And then once we’d qualified there we were sent up as a crew up into Italy.

They were very good aircraft. They were only two engines so they didn’t have the capacity that a Lancaster had. We found they were very manoeuvrable and they carried a very good bomb load, for that two engines. They were more efficient really

than the Liberator, and I can only compare them with a Liberator ’cause I flew the Wellington and the Liberator, I never flew a Lancaster or a Halifax. I think the Halifax, the Liberator, I’ll get in right in a minute, the Lancaster was probably the most efficient of all, but we found those two were satisfactory. I think we were a bit sorry that the Wellington was phased out.

I think it was phased out more on availability of aircraft that the Americans could supply more Liberators rather than the fact that they were better aircraft than the Wellington. By that time I think they were probably concentrating on pursuit aircraft from England to mop up the war.

Airspeed Oxfords.

Not too difficult except that the aircraft were no longer in their prime. And we had that example of one, the engine cut out all together

and some of them were a little bit hard to fly with their, Oh I think they’d just been knocked about and they were old and they weren’t as manoeuvrable as they might have been. But I didn’t take long to convert, whatever the timing was we were well within it.

No I think that by the time we got on the Wellingtons all their vices had been ironed out or their pilot’s had complained so much that they’d done something with them. They were terribly strong construction the Wellington, they were I think they called it a geodetic construction. And the framework was very strong with them, it could stand a lot of

ill-treatment and minor accidents.

I think they were quite easy to handle, there again we didn’t try and make them do anything that they shouldn’t have done. We found that the Liberator was a bulky aircraft and rather cumbersome. But I flew one day with an Australian who was a bit hairy

scary and happy go lucky, and he threw it all over the sky. I was surprised how manoeuvrable they were, if you really pushed them about. Something I don’t think I’d have been game to do.

No, you did ask me did I get sea sick, but no not air sick, I don’t think I was ever air sick. If I was I’m pretty sure it would have been self inflicted, but not from air, but from what’d I

eaten or had to drink beforehand.

Well I can guarantee that yeah.

Funnily enough I thought back

to the fact that my father had been there in the First World War. Great survivors, so why couldn’t we. We were put on a luggage party about six Australians, which meant that we went with the luggage from the boat up to Castina, while the others all went by train. And that was a good experience, and we saw a bit of a native life that way.

Was a bit disturbing to see how they, what they had to cope with. I suppose they were used to it. I wondered how much we’d have to do there, live in tents. When we got there they were brick huts that they’d made. And I can remember that vividly because they had a staircase in the front of them, to

each hut, and there were three of us put into this one hut. And one of the fellows, I think he’d had too much to drink, fell down the brick stairs and broke his arm, and we didn’t see him again. Nothing to do with the accommodation.

I’m just trying to think myself where we went to. I think we back into Cairo, at least once. We weren’t at Palestine at this Castina all that length of time. I think we went into Port Said, that was probably the biggest town nearby, and there wasn’t really a great deal doing in Port Said. There was a lot of swimming on the canal, and that was good.

I think, I read there in the diary that we went to one of the sports clubs and played a bit of tennis and golf, at the Smooha Club, I think that was in Alexandria. So we amused ourselves.

Yes did that. The highlight of our trip to the pyramids was that you could ride a camel, or if you had the extra few ‘Ackers’ I think was the money thing there. You could get an Arab horse and ride round it. My friend and I thought that was really getting back to home, if we could ride a horse. And it was a very nice horse, ‘Ackers’, so I rode round the pyramids on this

chestnut horse. I think we didn’t bother with the camel. I’ve got a photo I think it’s in there of us standing on the sphinx knees, just to prove that I’d been there. The taxi drivers that took you out to the pyramids from Cairo, were a breed unto themselves.

I think they only had an accelerator and a horn, and they used both to the full extent.

Well there were a few basic words that you were taught, malesh, meant I think don’t worry, mafeesh – that’s enough, you’d use these in various

intonations and make yourself understood. Some of the natives weren’t all that friendly, I remember one case a little urchin wanted to sell me, I can’t think what it was, chickens perhaps, and I refused and pushed him away which is a mistake, and he drew a pen knife on me. But I don’t think he’d have

used it, but it was a rude awakening to the attitude that they had.

There was bit, I think we all played up a bit and did things that were perhaps not the best of behaviour.

But I don’t think we ever did anything that would have been criminal offence. I can remember one of the minor things we did just to annoy people, we were on the edge of the Nile watching women doing their washing in the Nile, and we threw stones at them, at the washing, not at the people themselves but splashed all their washing. And you know I think that wasn’t very

nice, but quite fun to see their reaction. Was hardly fanatic behaviour.

Oh quite.

I can’t say that I ever heard of it being denigrated or bad, nothing like the army. The army apparently before we got to South Africa had wrecked Cape Town, and so that reputation went ahead of them. And I think we were warned to be very careful how we behaved.

But in the Middle East I’m not sure what the opinion was there.

Oh I think it probably was. But I can’t give any,

I think the army misbehaved didn’t they, they were rough and that sort of thing. I can’t really, perhaps we were too naïve.

Yeah.

Well I think we had a fair idea where we were going. We were sort of following the war up through Europe and it was going through Italy, and they’d taken all the bottom half of Italy by the time we were posted. And they were moving up into the bottom of Europe, so we were sent to Foggia, which is about

half way up Italy, on the eastern coast opposite Naples. And we were bombing targets right in the North of Italy and Yugoslavia, well we weren’t bombing Yugoslavia so much as doing supply drops. But I think we were pretty well knew where we were going, where we were being trained for and that was this Foggia.

That’s right.

Not much, except that they’d been through the desert and they’d gone into Italy with a good reputation. They were Wellingtons up until then, I think they were Wellingtons right up to the time that we took on the Liberators. There were quite a few

other aircraft flew from Foggia, the Americans had a, well they called it a wing or a squadron or something there, ’cause we could hear them take off in bad weather. And often sometimes we’d hear them flying around, ’cause the weather had closed in. Whether they had to go further south I’m not sure what the outcome was. But as I said before the weather was so

stinking at Foggia, if you got bad weather. It was at the foot of the Manfredonia Mountains, which is sort of a spur that runs out, and it was tricky because the wind would blow over the mountain and tend to suck you down, if you didn’t give enough leeway between the top of the mountain and where you were flying. But it was

a tactical spot to be in if you could put up with the mud and the slush.

Well very well, but I don’t think there was ever any fuss made, they just show you where, said, “You can have that tent”, and we shared it with a chap

who’d been flying there for sometime. This particular friend of mine that I’d been with for quite a while, so he and I had this tent and it was equipped with its own little stove, they all had their own little stoves, they called the pooper cookers. They used to get diesel fuel onto the hot plate and so they’d sort of go like a steam engine, very efficient heat but very dangerous. There was I suppose a tent got burnt

down regularly and you’d have to get another tent, and get some belongings together again.

Oh didn’t seem to worry us. We made the tent as comfortable as we could, we’d got oil heater, and I think we could draw as many blankets as we wanted to. And the mess that we went to for our meals was a farmer’s house, that had

been designed by Mussolini as a whole rural scheme these were dotted all over the countryside and I think he put farmers into each one to look after that bit of land. And so they’d converted one of those into this mess for us and alongside the house was the stable, and that was so the animals and the people would share each other’s warmth. And that was

quite a comfortable mess. And it had a bar and we drank, the staple drink was I think Vermouth, ’cause I don’t think we could get beer, so it was rather a light Italian wine, it wasn’t as light as it might have been. I know some of the Australians that got very drunk on it.

There was an upstairs to that house, I think that the chap who ran the mess lived above it, I can remember and all the unfortunates had were tents. And the next farmhouse down was the officer’s mess and apart from the mud and cold

we were quite happy there.

Well we found a crew back in the OTU [Operational Training Unit] in Palestine and at that stage we

knew we were going to fly Wellingtons and we were told to look around this aerodrome where they had the different crew all doing their training to, and we used to lectures with them at certain stages. And we had to find our own crew, and as I say I was terribly lucky, this navigator an Englishman came and said could he fly with us. And we had a bomb aimer who was a ex policeman in England,

I think I saw him in the mess he had a jovial attitude. He flew with us, I still hear from him, he comes out here, he’s got a son that lives out here. The wireless op that we had originally he was in that accident with us and he got a bit burnt, so we got a new, they gave us another one,

which was really a rather lucky thing, he was a much more balanced sort of a fellow the second one, the earlier one had been a bit…..We think that he might’ve jumped out before the aircraft came to a, skidded to a halt. And had he waited a bit longer he might’ve got out without a scratch. So we went with our full crew from the Operation Training Unit, where we’d been doing trips together anyway, the bombing trips and that sort of thing.

And so we arrived in the squadron supposedly full trained.

Well I think the main thing was to get on with it, basically you didn’t know a great deal about their abilities except that I knew that navigator was good, I’d watch his results.

The others you had to have someone you could rely on and who was interested in the crew and just not himself. And I think that fellow that was hurt, that pulled out, he wouldn’t have been a good crew member. Unfortunately the little fellow that didn’t get out of the aircraft he was a delightful fellow, he did tend to drink a bit,

but it would never have affected what he was doing. Just trying to think of the other crew, oh the rear gunner, he was a very casual easy going sort of a fellow, and I think he’d been good, I don’t think he ever had to fire his guns in anger. He would have been quite accurate I know that.

Well I don’t think you’d have been allowed to get as far as

flying operationally if you hadn’t been efficient and qualified. I mean at each stage you’re tested and first of all you’ve got to go solo on that aircraft and then you get assessed at the end of each different part of your training. And that log book its got a, the CO’s assessment of you and I think it goes from average up to above average and proficient.

Different terms like that that you’d got so that I don’t think any of the crew ever asked to see your log book, to see if they’d fly with you, it was there if they wanted to. I must have been thought of as fairly well trained because the CO and I both did our conversion together. So he flew with me so he must have

had a bit of confidence that our crew was alright, ’cause he came up to get his experience. And on another occasion there was a new pilot come on to the squadron, usually they had to do a trip, one bombing exercise with an experienced pilot, and it was my first trip and he came with me. So there again we thought I was privileged that they would think enough of

our crew to train a new one. And we messed together, you know we’d have drinks together and stay together as a group pretty well. One of the other people when we got on to the squadron, when you came back from a trip there was, the lorry driver would come out and meet you, and take you back for a de-briefing.

And these were usually Englishman ground staff without any rank, but they were characters and one particular fellow, an Irishman Hatti O’Connor, we got terribly friendly with, and when we landed and pulled up the aircraft he would always be there unfailing ready to take us up. We said to him you know one day, “How do you happen to know when we’re coming in?” and he said, “Oh I

follow it, and quite frankly” he said, “I hide until you’re down and come and get you”. Which is a lovely thought that he’d be there. I don’t know what the other aircraft would have thought if they’d have known that he was available and could have picked them up before us. But these are the sort of friends that you make as you go along and you appreciate.

You are you report any defects as your flying and any of the crew that have got a defect report it to you and you give that to the Ground crew. But you don’t physically see that it’s done, you just report it and then assume that it’s right next time. Mostly you flew the same aircraft, ’cause you were used to it.

You got fond of that aircraft, and you would rather hope that it would have a hole in it when it came back so that you could point to it, and they knew the action we worked in.

I’d have to look in the log book to tell you.

There again I think it was

a matter of whether you’re proficient or not before they’d let you go solo. And probably if you’re proficient in two or three hours they’d let you go. Others who might be having trouble they might keep them flying for ten or eleven. I don’t think at that stage you’d have been scrubbed, because they’d put too much money into training you.

I didn’t, mostly you’d get on well together. You had a sense of fun really that wouldn’t panic. You couldn’t get a chap who was too serious or they’d tended to go the other way, they’d

well panic in emergency. Navigator you’re looking for a bloke who was really proficient and the fact that we got such a delightful fellow was a bonus. And he came from a very, sedate English background, his father ran one of the Smith paper shops, I don’t know whether you W H Smith I think they were, and he hadn’t been about

much this fellow, we had to shepherd him a bit, keep him away from problems. We went to the lower area of Algeria while we were there just to have a look, he didn’t want to go, and you had to persuade him that life was such that you want to know what it’s all about. I don’t know whether he appreciated it but he did come.

And as I told you the bomb aimer had this great sense of fun, and he would accept anything that you told him without querying that. When you’re bombing you’ve got to have the aircraft steady and his in charge at that stage, and he tells you left or right or straight ahead. And if for any reason

I wanted to disagree with him, because I thought there was flack close by he would accept it very readily. Some bomb aimers wouldn’t, they wanted to get their job done and that was it. But he had a wonderful attitude of loyalty and also efficiency. But he was a bit naughty he wasn’t allowed to come on one trip with us, cause he’d failed his bombing exercise that day.

We had to do a little bit of bombing in between trips just to keep your hand in. I don’t think it was lack of ability on his part it was lack of attention to detail I would think. But he comes out here to Australia as I said and I see a bit of him. The only one that I would know where they were now.

They were small bombs that would explode, but they didn’t have any filling that could do much damage. And we’d take those out and they’d have a target in the desert somewhere and you’d fly over and see how close you could get.

I don’t know what they were made of now, they were just like miniature bombs that didn’t have any armoury in them. I suppose if you were underneath them they’d do you some damage, but the, well the native wouldn’t go near a bombing range anyway, they’d soon realise what it was being used for.

Castina, yeah

Well this one wasn’t going down so much that it had to do a forced landing. One engine had cut out and the other one I think

had caught fire, I can’t remember what it was. But he decided that he’d do this forced landing and he did it on this strip that was on a airfield that was close by. And as soon as you’re down and soon as it’s stopped moving you get out as quickly as you can in case the petrol explodes or the rest of it catches fire. And being second pilot seat,

I think I was just in front of the door, and I could jump out. One thing I had to careful was I didn’t jump into a spinning propeller and you know on the floor down to the wing. I must have been aware of that ’cause I didn’t. But the others were all out very quickly and I had time to run round the aircraft, and I can remember this vividly, before the last person was out.

And when he got out we all sort of said, “Well where’s so and so?” this was the bomb aimer who didn’t get out. We rather hoped that he was hit on the head, there’s a dome in the middle of the aircraft that he stood in to look round and it swung and we’d like to think that hit him and knocked him out.

Yes I think it would be being burnt. Oh and if you came down at sea you had a fair chance of having a Mae West [Life Vest] and being picked up. I suppose if you pranged on land that was the end of it. But burning would be my greatest fear.

It was improving even while we were there. The bomb sites had improved tremendously, so bombing became more accurate.

I can’t give you the actual details but I think while we were there they took out one sort of bomb site from the Wellington and put another one in, that made it a lot easier. And of course the American aircraft they had all their own apparatus that they’d put in, it was probably the best that you could get, ’cause they’d didn’t spare money for those

sort of details. And they had their own engines in the aircraft, and it was an interesting thing, there was 3 different sorts of engine, placed in this one aircraft. Ford made one, I think Consolidated who made the aircraft they made another, and Packard I think it was made the other one.

And I can’t remember in which order it is now, and I’m not going to say in case I get held a bit. One was good, one was alright and the other one was hopeless, and if you happen to get one of the aircraft that had the hopeless engine in it worried it until you got back again. And that particular company just didn’t make a good engine, although it would have been made

to the right design.

Well the ground staff would know. And I don’t know whether they warned us prior to take-off so we could be extra careful or whether we may never have known. I’m not sure now but I know there was the three and one was good and one wasn’t. Whether they told us prior to taking off I’m not sure,

might have been better if they didn’t and assumed we had a good one. I think that then it would have been the cause of some of their loss of this particular aircraft not being much good, or engine not being much good. I got the names there in one of those books too, what make it is but I won’t give you that.

No the Wellington was English, very much so, Duke of Wellington and all that. Liberator sounds American too, it was American. And it was a four engine aircraft, big and bulky, I think we flew it with a crew of seven and the

Americans flew it with a crew of ten. But to be quite fair to them a lot of their work was done in the daytime so they needed extra bombers, which the RAF [Royal Air Force] obviously didn’t think were necessary so we just had the seven.

No that was the Liberators. The Wellingtons were clapped out by that stage we didn’t know whether they were going to bad on that particular flight or not. But I think the one that clapped out on us had obviously gone longer than it should have done, and was ready to pack it in.

Well I can’t

remember the date, but after we’d done a few trips and they decided to change over to the Liberator. And we were given a couple of South Africans, I think you saw their picture in that album, and they flew with us over to Algeria and then when we got there they flew us back in the Liberator. And when we got back I think we did a couple of circuits and bumps until we felt we could fly

them, and that was our conversion.

No.

Started off on Wellingtons yes. There’s a badge in one of those books that I’ve got there that details all the different trips that they did, the different areas that they bombed and where they’d been through the

desert and then up into Italy. It had quite a proud record and there’s a couple of men here in Orange that were from 104 as ground staff for a long while.

I think we flew over. Possibility in Liberators cause there were a few about at that time. We flew from Castina, which was in the Palestine over to Italy. I can’t really remember by going by boat so we must have flown over.

Strange I haven’t got that recorded, yes I would I have it in my log book they’d be a if it was flying out.

Just to settle in I think, I think they said to me, “There’s your tent, that’s where you’ve got to live” and was to try and make it

habitable. Luckily we had an Australian as I said who was already there in the tent and he put in quite a few conveniences. I think he even got a little garden growing. I don’t know how long it was, I think we didn’t fly for a little while because of the weather. That was possibly one of the unpleasant thing about Foggia was that you’d be rostered for a bombing

flight, but cancelled perhaps two or three times in a row because the weather was too cold further up and you know you wanted to get on and get on with it. I can remember another day, I think it was in Wellingtons, we went out ready to take off, and you taxi up to the end of the aerodrome and the last check they do is to check your tyres.

And this particular day they signalled and did that, meant we couldn’t go because one of the tyres was no good, might’ve burst on landing. And that’s infuriating I mean you don’t want to go on the trip particularly anyway, but once you got that far its infuriating not to continue with it.

I think we hung round in that sergeants mess and that was probably, no it wasn’t no it was a hut down nearer to where you flew. They had an Operations Hut and you’d hang round near there and they’d put up a list of who was flying and what time they were going off. And I think you just had to report there

pretty frequently. There was a town nearby that Foggia, that if you weren’t flying you could go in there, I think it had a theatre. I don’t think it had a swimming pool, no it would have been too cold for that. But the only thing to do was go to this theatre, it was a theatre that they put on shows, you know the English Army had an entertaining group that would go

round, oh and there was boxing there too, cause we went and watched some boxing one night. Apart from that there wasn’t much to do, so they sent us on leave pretty frequently and we went over to the other side of Italy to the West Coast. It was tremendous entertainment over there and good accommodation, and the water was warm,

and I think we were probably there for a week or ten days and then back onto the aerodrome.

Well mostly theatres, it was an area where they’d been opera theatres. And I don’t think we went to the opera there we went up to Naples, it wasn’t far from Naples and we went to the opera in Naples. And bike riding, you could hire bikes and ride up and down the

coast. We weren’t far from Capri, I didn’t actually get out to Capri but there was a grotto similar to the one on Capri just near where we were staying and wonderful swimming and clear water. And we took a little boat and sailed out a couple of times. But we were never at a loss for something to do.

Yes well I think the idea is to forget about that task while you’re on leave, and this is how you survive and it doesn’t worry you. I think if you kept it on your mind and you slept out in the tent all the time waiting to go up, it probably would get to you. I think all the

films you see about war time in England are they were continually going up to London weren’t they.

Oh yeh.

It was after we’d finished the OTU at Castina, then we went to Alexandria to a staging camp there, to wait to see when

we would go up to Foggia. I think we knew by that time that we were going to Foggia. And we hung round there until a plane was available, and we flew in a Dakota. We went via North Africa, I think Benghazi and Malta, landed at Malta and flew across to Naples. And we got into a cattle truck, it was just literally a cattle truck, and that took us from the west

coast over the east coast to Foggia. That was the trip.

Not a great deal except that the allies were gradually pushing the Germans up through Italy and there’d been very severe fighting. I just can’t think of the name of the mountain in the middle now, one of the fiercest

battles. And we eventually won that one. When we were there in Naples and I don’t know about Foggia, but you could still smell the bodies, that had been in the rumble and they hadn’t been able to get out. So you know we were close enough to what had been action.

We didn’t know a great deal about it, and it didn’t play on our mind. We knew the odds weren’t good, but by the time we were getting there those odds had swung round. I had a neighbour near us who went over and flew in England on

Halifaxes and I think he was the only one of seven in his particular lot that got back. But that was because of the radar wasn’t it? The Germans had a radar spot, I think in Denmark and they were able to pass onto their own fighter exactly when the British were coming over and they just shot them out of the sky. When the British Intelligence got onto that, they swung the whole thing round.

Well we had a identification lecture pretty frequently on the German aircraft and how to identify them. And they kept that up to date pretty well. And probably one of the most interesting lessons of the lot. And which ones were the very efficient

German aircraft, but I don’t think we could dwell on it for too long.

Well they had you know pretty good gunner, if you had a good gunner you would weave a bit if you had a chance of avoiding a fighter aircraft.

We didn’t, I was just reading in that diary, we saw a few fighters but we were never actually in combat with one thank goodness.

Foggia.

I was just reading about that,

the weather was so bad that when we got there, there wasn’t a great deal of flying. I think the second day we were there we went up on a supply dropping, which was pretty good experience. I think, yes when we got there the squadron had lost quite a few aircraft, mainly from bad weather.

Well it was just winter and snow storms. I suppose storms generally and they’d lose their way or fly into mountains, fair bit of hilly terrain. And then as I mentioned before the… Foggia was at the bottom of the Manfredonia Mountains and they rose very

sharply and you had to be aware of where they were in relation to where you were going.

Well actually didn’t seem to be good, but quite a lot of our proposed flights were stopped, so they must have been getting good information through when it was too dangerous.

Yeh.

Well all I can remember we were dropping food supplies to the Yugoslavia, what do they call there sort of rebels that had broken away and were harassing the Germans. And there were spots where they could pick up these supply drops. That

was not a very dangerous mission, except that for the weather and you had to try and get their supplies when they wanted them rather than when the weather was good enough. Or was it Tito I think wasn’t it, it was his troops that we were supporting.

It wasn’t a dramatic supply drop as some are that you go down low and you have to protect the goods your dropping, we were able to drop them from a fairly decent height and I think they were on parachutes so they weren’t knocked about. We were just given an area that they had to be dropped in and the navigator would direct us to it, the bomb aimer would tell us when to let them go. I was a bit like a

bombing expedition yeh. And then turn around and come home again, hope the weather hadn’t closed in.

I think the average was about five hours. I’d have to have a look at my log book again to be sure of that. But I think that’s it from Foggia up into Southern Europe I think it would have

been a good five hour trip. The marshalling yards were our targets mostly rail heads and that sort of thing.

Well you’d be waiting for the call to say the raid was on, and then you’d down to the

briefing hut and an officer in charge of operations would tell you where you were going, what sort of a operation it would be, what sort of opposition you could expect in the way of aircraft or ground attack. And I think they gave you the course that you were supposed to go in on so that you wouldn’t be crossing over.

When you had all that you’d go into your aircraft and they’d signal you out one by one and you’d taxi up to the end of the runway and then they did another brief check there of how your tyres were and just a general run round your aircraft to see that it was visibly alright. And then you’d run your motors up and if everything was alright you’d take off,

in turn one after each other. We weren’t all that close cause there was a bit of time I think, and you go up to a certain height and circle there until everybody had taken off, and then you’d fly in more or less in formation, and go to the spot that you were going to fly to. And if the weather was good well it was fairly straight forward then, the bomb aimer would take you in on the course, tell you to

keep it steady and he’d drop his bomb. But I was just reading there I think it was only on our second trip, we went over and we couldn’t find the target because of cloud and I hung round for twenty minutes and we still didn’t get an opening. And we bought back and I think we’d been told at that stage to bring our bomb loads back because they were running short of ammunition, so you couldn’t drop them in the sea. So that was a bit nerve-racking

landing with a load of bombs on. And the crew would be apprehensive and quick to tell you to take it easy, watch out.

Oh quite often, the weather would close in and you wouldn’t see the target. I think we got quite a bit of key loss that day for

having hung round. Any sensible person would have said, “We can’t see it we’re off home”. And that was alright I think it was on one of those trips I frightened the life out of the crew. I had the automatic pilot on and it wasn’t working terribly well and the nose came up and the air speed dropped back and I threw the nose forward very quickly, and that has the effect of throwing the petrol to the top of the tank,

and so your motor is starved of petrol. And one cut out, the way to correct it you just put the nose down and you build up speed and with all good fortune the motor will pick up again. But I wasn’t forgiven for that, they crew used to remind me of the time that I frightened the life out of them. Those are the sort of things that you remember.

Oh the crew would yeah.

Oh well absolutely essential. If you haven’t got confidence in them, you’d be frightened all the time. Particularly your navigator, he’s got to avoid all the obstacles, get you there on time. With him

I had every confidence, I suppose if you haven’t got confidence in your navigator you’d have to try and follow somebody else.

Well not letting the motor cuts for one thing. I suppose

just doing reasonable landings when you came back, that they’d know you were competent. Oh and making decisions when they were necessary. You had to treat them a little like a class too, keep them quite when it was necessary to be quite so they didn’t block up the radio. Bully them a little bit I suppose, which they probably

appreciated.

Well it was all taken in good part and then it was just telling them to shut up or something. But being the pilot you’re automatically the captain so they accept it. I often wondered how the 35 year old New Zealander felt about it, but he never showed any animosity.

No, I can’t say, I didn’t have any ill feeling or bad moments. But as a person I think the tension was there occasionally on a trip if the weather was bad or we were, there was a bit of flack about or something like that, well you could sense the tension.

You could tell when the bomb aimer said “Right bombs away” and then he’d make some rude remark you know let’s get the hell out of here.

No I can’t say I did. I think it wouldn’t ever be allowed to last, I think that if a pilot was having trouble with one crew member he’d go straight to the CO of the squadron and have it altered. I think everyone appreciated that and they give him another crew or sort it out someway.

Well very good, the only different nationalities that we had were English and of course I suppose Irish and Scots, Welsh, but I call them all British and Australian and New Zealanders, they were the only three nationalities, that were on our squadron. You know I think the Poles, but they kept on their own squadron, they didn’t mix.

And I don’t know who else there would have been, oh the Canadians of course but we didn’t have any Canadians. Whether they’d stopped the training scheme by that time I’m not quite sure, but there weren’t any.

Well that I don’t know. See we didn’t, our lot certainly didn’t because we were all trained together right from fairly early stage. But as I say the Poles they flew on their own, I think there might have been some of the fighter pilots flew within these squadrons that I’m not sure. I think the system for the lot of us

was the same so you couldn’t be…you had to follow.

I think we had to have silence at certain stages in case it was picked up. And when, you wanted to keep it as free as you can so that the gunners

could tell you if there was I think any other aircraft or flack nearby. So virtually there was no chatter as such. And I think we were all quite happy to abide by that.

Well you couldn’t see behind you, so you relied on the gunner. I think the mid upper gunner he,

if we had one, he could tell you what was going on. And the bomb aimer of course could see underneath. I think the pilot just had to rely on what he could see forwards.

No I can’t say there was. I think we were a bit worried about that chap that was burnt, when we thought he might come back with us. We wondered how he would be but it didn’t eventuate. I think they let him go on long service leave and then came back later. But no we didn’t have that many trips. I mean I wasn’t there for tour after tour like some of them were.

Oh I suppose most of it you wouldn’t be occupied you’d just be keeping it on the course that the navigator would hold you on. He’d soon let you know if you deviated. And had to maintain your correct height, some of the automatic pilots

in the early days weren’t too good, so you couldn’t let the automatic pilot take over, you had to do a lot of personal flying. You couldn’t shut your eyes and go sleep, but I suppose you weren’t concentrating terrible hard, except for the take off, over the target and then when you’re landing. The rest of the time was fairly free.

I think the pilot once you got into your seat you stayed there until you got out again. I don’t think there was any moving. The bomb aimer could move about a bit if I remember, he could get down into position or he could come back up onto the flight deck. So I suppose the

navigator could have moved about a bit to. He probably had to move about a bit because he had a, not a theota lobe but he could get shots of the stars to see exactly where he was. So he’d have had to get out of his desk or whatever it was to do that. The bomb aimer of course, Rear Gunner of course he just, once he was in there he stayed there.

The other Gunners whether they could move about a bit, I think they probably could of moved about.

Well as I say we did see some fighters, so I take it they would have attacked some of our crew. I just

read in that diary when we came back from one of those leaves, we’d lost a few aircraft, whether they’d been shot down by fighter pilots I don’t know, fighter planes, or by their ground fire. The flack would have been more likely to get them. There was some points that we had to fly over to get to Northern Italy into Southern Europe, that were fairly heavily defended.

So there would have been quite a lot of anti aircraft fire there, if it strayed over there. And it was one of the navigator’s duties was to see it didn’t.

Well not a great deal really in terms of something like the European targets, but we would see enough explosions to

make you feel a little bit disconcerted. And I think the aircraft would be thrown about a bit, but I don’t think they had to be terribly close to do that. I think probably most of it was in your imagination.

Well we really didn’t know until you got back and looked at the photographs, the bomb aimer

took a photograph. And they were pinned up in the mess next day and you’d go and you could tell from that whether you had a successful trip or not. And I think we did quite well on several trips, it looked as if we’d hit the target, quite a few others hadn’t been able to. And I’m reading in that story of my friends,

he had a cookie which was the big bomb, and he said he could see it explode. And the explosion was really quite horrific, but I can’t remember ever having seen a bomb, I think I did on the daylight we were bombing a bridge and you see the stick of them going one after the other. But I can’t really remember.

We didn’t know, they were extensively military targets and you just have to hope that you weren’t bombing civilians.

None of our targets were just purely civilian, they were all railway stations or bridges or something like that. But no doubt the bombs might’ve strayed, you just have to pretend that they didn’t and live with it.

There again I think you’ve just got to convince yourself that it’s a military target, and the authorities have told you to bomb on a certain spot, that’s it. I think if you got too involved in it and didn’t want to drop those bombs, you’d have to be cashed out of the air force with that lack of moral fibre business.

No and only that one of the marshalling yard we knew was fairly well protected with anti-aircraft fire. We would all have preferred not have done that one, but that was as far as it went.

Well you can take a sort of amount of evasive action, by changing your course a little bit, until you’re getting onto your bombing run, then you’ve got to keep it as steady as you can. And the bomb aimer then has got to be the one with a strong presence of mind, he wants to get a good bombing result and I suppose he also wants to get home safe, so he’s got to make up his

mind when you can start taking evasive action I guess. I suppose it’s down to the pilot to make the final decision, but you do it on the bomb aimers say so. And of course you see if he doesn’t’ get a good bombing result he gets cross.

No I don’t think there was much you could see at all. I think you could see what you imagined were guns going off and you could see the, well I suppose the explosion as the shell left the gun, but they probably wouldn’t be aimed at you, they’d be aimed somewhere else.

Well I can’t really remember but I’m pretty sure that

we could feel the effects of the shells exploding and turbulence, but they still could have been quite a long way from you to do that. And I think they created a smoky atmosphere, you know when they went off there was a smoke and you’d fly through that. But no I can’t have any heroics about being close and nearly shot down.

Well over the target you had to really concentrate to keep it straight and level, so that the bomb aimer could sight up. That was fairly difficult, apart from that the aircraft was easy to keep straight and level. I mean if you had a really good automatic pilot and you went over a target you could put him on and he’d

probably hold it better than you would.

Well I think we only did that once. That was a real no no, you know you had to do it the first time if you could. I know of one time we went round again,

the bomb aimer just couldn’t get it straight cause he blamed me and I blamed him when we got back.

Well you had to go to de-briefing, that lorry would come and pick you up that I was telling you about with the Irish driver. And he’d take you into the de-briefing

hut and I think you got debriefed individually. There were officers there behind a desk and you run through it with them and they’d tell you whether they thought it was successful or not. Then I think you’d go back to the mess and have a couple of quick drinks.

Well I don’t think they’d have the photos there, until a bit later. At the de-briefing I still think, with the photos that you took and just what they told you about the effects of it, it was really why you were there, whether you’d been successful in

staging your part of the war or not. I suppose the briefing was the more important part, telling you how to do it and how to get there.

The bomb aimer certainly would have gone and the pilot. I think the whole crew went, I think they were interested to know how they got on. And I don’t think it took very long, I think it was, they could cover it pretty quickly for you. And I’ve got an idea we might‘ve even had a briefing, another briefing the next day when the photos were all compared and

they could assess what damage had been done.

I wonder what they would be saying to each other. I think they’d say to me don’t hang round, and tell the navigator whatever he did don’t get near that particular spot. All in good humour but with a certain amount of feeling behind it I would think. The poor unfortunate rear gunner he didn’t have much say in what we did, he was just there to defend us and

so forth, so the de-briefing didn’t concern him much.

Oh I suppose the rear gunner, cause there isolated on the back there. Nothing much to protect him except his own ability to shoot straight. It would have to be him, I don’t know about the,

I think we had a mid upper gunner but he was right back into the aircraft so he’d have been pretty right.

Oh yeah. Lot’s of gruesome jokes about being rear gunner. How you, you know if you can’t do anything else you can be a rear gunner. But that was a nasty bit of it, I think it was, well as you say everyone appreciated what their position was and just hoped that he could protect you when aircraft did chase you. As I say mine was a 35 year old New Zealander, so we

knew that he wasn’t going to give his life away too cheaply, I think he was married and he had a family to go back to.

’Cause I think you usually only discussed that with probably your best mate or someone that you knew

pretty closely. I don’t think you’d talk about your family much in a group environment. Possibly because everyone’s family was so diverse. Some probably didn’t have wives and might not have even had girlfriends, I don’t know the family background of a lot of them. It’s something you tried to keep a bit separate from really and

when that bomb aimer that was lost, you’ve then got to become involved with his family, or somebody has and suddenly you don’t like doing so, and you don’t even talk about it.

Tremendously

strong, mostly as a crew, then I suppose as a flight, which is a small group of the aircraft, then pride in what the squadron had done would be another bonding part of it. But mostly just the crew, I think you bonded to them, cause you’ve had each other’s safety

in their hands. I think that also the CO of the squadron you put a lot of trust in him. If he was reliable descent sort of a bloke you had a great deal of appreciation of him being there.

Well I suppose in the way that he organised your living quarters, your leaves, what leave he gave you, he wouldn’t let you fly too long. A CO that could tell that the

crew were happy amongst themselves, and would do something about it if they weren’t. All those sort of things, the CO had a lot of responsibility in looking after your welfare as well as organising the war side of it, the flying side. You wonder a bit about their own background if there

a bloke from the land in Australia you’d probably had a bit more faith in them, cause there one of your sort you thought.

Oh they would have had to have it, before they’d be made the CO.

I think each person went up through the different grades and different ranks until you got to the top. You might have someone fairly high up in the squadron who wasn’t a flyer, navigation officer or something like that but he’d have had to have experience in that job. You couldn’t get it just on paper ability.

I don’t think we’d have been at all happy of the situation. It couldn’t happen that way anyway, I mean you’ve got to have the experience before you get the rank. And

I think the rank nearly in every case goes on seniority of service and ability. I don’t think you can get there just on passing exams, or anything like that.

No I don’t think so. Perhaps the officer’s mess being different from the sergeant’s mess and the sergeant's mess being different from the airman’s mess. That had to be handled fairly carefully or there could be a bit of dissatisfaction, if one got better food than the other.

But that never seemed to be an issue in our case. And you could always get an interview with the CO who was willing to talk to you.

Well again because you earned the rank I suppose and you know the divi system, and I don’t think it was a good one but I

don’t know whether you could have fitted everyone into the same mess I don’t think you could have. I mean I don’t think you could have been as democratic as to have them all in the one mess.

I’d have called it happy.

Not having been with it from its inception, not that anybody was I suppose. We knew that it had built up a good reputation and we didn’t want to smudge that. But each new CO probably gave it a character of its own, so it’s a bit hard to bung that all into the one description of it. But I would have said very happy and we organised a football team

while were there, rugby team and played against another squadron. And there was loyalty to our team from the squadron so I suppose you could say it was a happy and united organisation.

You know there wasn’t a great opportunity, because they stayed in their officer’s mess, this was until I became an officer, and were in the sergeant’s mess and that’s where you did most of your fraternity. I think he would come and address us every now and again. And I know I went to see him on a couple of occasion,

one when I was told I could go home and I went to him to tell him that I’d got this and he said, “Oh yes we’ve been notified but don’t worry about it its not likely to happen” and two days later it came through that I could go home. He was a Western Australian but a delightful bloke, I don’t know what happened to him afterwards, but I would say he was successful

in whatever he did, he was that sort of a person.

I think we had the opportunity but didn’t take it. I don’t

think we wanted to be involved, except in the good news. We probably discussed that and said isn’t that great. And things were getting good by the time we got there, they were moving up through Italy and I think they were pushing the Germans out of France by that time too. Everything was going quite well.

Perhaps we were remiss not to have taken more interest, I think you lived every day for the day as it came and that was it.

Yes some of our trips were at night. We spent quite a lot of time on night flying training, flying by instruments, landing by flare path. I suppose we were really trained more for night flying bombing than daytime.

Perhaps they thought, you know we could have been flying for England and most of it was at night time. The Americans like to fly in the daytime, they used to go over in great big groups of aircraft and heavily fortified.

Well yes I suppose it was much the same as I did before, you’d get de-briefed, go down to the de-briefing hut, not de-briefing the briefing hut. They’d tell you what your target was for the night, what you’re likely to meet in the way of opposition and what the weather was likely to be.

Well it was much easier in the daytime, you could see where you were going. But night time didn’t seem to be all that much more difficult, you had a good flare path to take off with. Provided the weather was reasonable when you got there you had a flare path you could land on. I

think the aircraft often flew better at night, the engine seemed to like the atmosphere better. Bit like a motor car I think it runs a bit better at night I think. Didn’t seem to matter with the ground staff they were always available whenever you took off or went on. I suppose the biggest danger about night time is the other aircraft that are in the airspace with

you, that you know in the daytime you can see them, at night time there not so easy to see. But I think that answers it, I’d have probably rather fly at daytime but I’m not sure that it was any safer, I think it would probably be safer at night, in the point of view of enemy opposition.

We’d go off much the same time, we’d be over the target much the same time, you’d almost got there as an individual, you didn’t have to stay in formation. The Americans I think they used to stay in formation so that they were harder to shoot down, particularly the ones in the middle.

I don’t know that they did that at night time, but daytime certainly. And they nearly had to do that for protection over Europe otherwise they would have been shot out of the sky by the fighters. But where they had that big ring of fire round them it’s just hard for the fighters to come in and knock them down. They had so many gunners on each flight, that it gave them protection and fire-power

which was much greater than we thought necessary. On the Wellington we only had five altogether, and I think on the Liberator we had seven, and I think the Americans had up to twelve on their aircraft. So the aircraft was glistening with guns.

Well we were just told that, but I think only two of us went I think the, might have been three, the navigator and the wireless op and the pilot, and we flew with two South Africans, the pilot and the second pilot,

in Liberators from Italy over to Algiers where they obviously had these aircraft. And we stayed there for a couple of days, I’m not quite sure why perhaps they had to still service the aircraft and get them ready. But I know we had a good look round Algiers and spent a bit of time there. And then we bought these South

Africans back in, no wait a minute they flew us back, we flew them over in the clapped out Wellingtons that’s right, and they flew us back in the new Liberators. And I thought we’d landed at Malta, but we couldn’t have done because I think I only went to Malta once and that was on the way up to Foggia from the Middle East. And as I say the

South Africans were bits of larrikins, that was an interesting trip.

Yes. There was some very low areas in Algiers, I read in that same diary that we were told not to go

abroad without at least three of us, and not to go at night time at all. I suppose that was foot pads and that sort of thing, the natives you know that were roaming the streets. I think the nightclubs were pretty low life, and I think we went to one of those. They had dancers there with very

little clothing on, all the enticements you can imagine, which was all and experience, we’d heard about it.

You’ve heard of the sort of night life and didn’t think it existed, it’s a shock but I think young and naïve you were probably more frightened of the outside world and its problems, so you behaved yourself more so than the sophisticated

person. As I think I said my navigator was shy and very well behaved and he was with us so we didn’t venture terribly much.

Yes.

Oh yes we knew that they were there and what, we’d heard the stories of the depravities that they went on with, though we didn’t see any of them. The night club I say we went to was as raw as you can get I suppose without being,

they couldn’t close it down for what they did, but nearly bad enough. I’m not sure who would have been in control of the night club, I suppose the, who owned Algiers at that stage, the French didn’t they? So I suppose they were in charge of the behaviour. We had to be a little bit careful too that we had to fly home at fairly short notice,

and so you had to be on deck fairly early in the morning in case that was the day they wanted us to fly home, or fly back to Foggia.

Oh yes I think so, I think we were

in a different era and in those days you did behave yourself. Nowadays they’d probably be a bit more broadminded, I think you behaved yourself only be it from the health point of view, I think you were warned of the possibility and I think they were in evidence then, different sort to now

there weren’t so many drugs involved I don’t think. Was easier to avoid it than to, and to hear about it, than to experience.

No we had a few parties in the mess but no not to that extent. I saw there were some men that collapsed and you’d wonder how they could possibly cope the next day, but the group I was with, I think possibly as you just said we came from more estranged

background and there was enough of us of that persuasion to all want to set an example to the others or to, not to be the one that would besmirch the family name.

Yes their language was colourful.

I don’t know how, what their behaviour at night in Algiers, we didn’t, oh we went to one that very nasty night club, because we wanted numbers. But apart from that we didn’t see what they did. And they were sober enough they were certainly capable of flying.

No they had their own squadron in Foggia on that aerodrome flying Liberators, that’s why they took us over, or we took them over and they flew us back ’cause they knew the aircraft. But we must have had some trained airman on Liberators because we didn’t get South Africans to teach us when we got back. So

we must have had somebody who had already been flying Liberators. But not much, I mean as I say you only had a few hours and the CO said, “Right you can go” that was that. So they must have been an easy aircraft to fly.

Well we were in a wing, we were 62 Wing

or something, which was made up of two squadrons, 40 and 104 and they were extensively English squadrons, but they had a lot of Australian pilots on them. And when we converted to Liberators the remaining Wellingtons went over to 40 Squadron, and I think they converted there once they got onto 40 Squadron. My very good friend he took his crew

across and he became 40 instead of 104. And earlier when we were there that was how rivalry between those two and we had football matches between them. We knew a few of the Australians on 40 and it was a good way to meet them. One lives here in Wellington actually I think he’s still about.

No, I think we might’ve boasted that we’d bombed a certain target better than they had but, I don’t think we’d have known really for a fact. We’d meet them, I think occasionally there was a party of some sort that both

squadrons would be at or some of the flyers and we’d probably tease each other then but it was friendly enough. I think we all had the one thought that the sooner we got home the better.

Yeah.

It is a bit hard except you’ve got two swapping levers in the Wellington, one for each engine, in the Liberator you had four and I think that you got your engineer in the Liberator, who was one of the extra crew and I think he helped you with the

throttle, to open them up. And you had to synchronise your motors once you took off ’cause they could get out of synchronisation and you’d get vibration and a lot of noise, and I think the engineer would synchronise the motors for you, whereas in the Wellington you did it all yourself. So there’d have been another two sets of

indicators on the dashboard to for the extra engines that you’ve got, so you had to keep an eye on those. This is going back a long while.

He sat alongside you as a sort of second pilot, whereas on the Wellingtons I think the bomb aimer sat there except when he was actually over the target.

That’s going back, I’m pretty sure that’s right. Yes I’ve got a diagram in there I should have looked at it.

Hmm.

Oh very much so, yes that was one of the clues to good flying was to have your engine synchronised so there wasn’t vibration and you’d get the maximum power with synchronised engines. So you’d

listen for it and that would give you a clue if there was something amiss. There were quite a few little things that could, not little things but things that could go wrong. For instance this friend of mine who’s written this diary of his life as it is, he was flying back and an engine cut out, and he couldn’t

see any real reason for it having cut out on his instrument board. And just as the second one started to falter, he realised that he had extra tanks on and the flight engineer or bomb aimer, I’m not sure whose job it was, had forgotten to turn onto the surplus tanks, so he was virtually running out of petrol. So there was a panic and they turned them on and

he was able to put the nose down and build up speed and they caught up and away he went again. But he wasn’t forgiven by his crew either. But that sounds simple, oh you know why would you forget to turn a tap on, but you run through your cockpit drill and you can become automatic, you can say brakes something or rather, petrol and think oh yes I’ve done petrol and go on again, and in

actual fact you haven’t done the physical thing of turning it on, you’ve just checked that the taps there. And another thing you could do to when you’re coming in to land, you had to check that you’re brakes weren’t on and again you could put your hand on and think oh yeah brakes right, and you hadn’t actually released them, and you’d land with an awful thump. And then that would remind you, if you didn’t go up on your nose.

Oh yes that was one of the things you had to learn by heart was your checklist, you had to do a check before takeoff and before landing.

I can’t think what else you did but you’d run through them and they were listed there alphabetically, but I was saying that the human mind let’s you down because you check each one but you forget to do the thing. You think right brakes I’ve done that, haven’t actually done it. I suppose it was like turning an oven on, you know think oh there’s the switch but you don’t turn it. Sound silly but that’s

humanity I suppose.

Oh yes I think it was all good natured. I think it would have done anything that really looked like it harmed their livelihood, well then they’d be a bit sour about it. But I never got that, they all enjoyed the fact

that they could rib you about something that had been done, then get your own back. You know with the bomb aimer if he teased you at all you’d then say well if it hadn’t been for you we’d have bombed the first time round, we wouldn’t have had to go back over the target. Or the navigator, not that he made many mistakes, you could say well we’d have been home a lot earlier if you hadn’t got lost.

It all keeps the thing on a light note where I suppose lightness isn’t expected.

No not really. There was an automatic pilot I think I told you they were faulty at times, and you could rely on them and find that you were gradually getting off course and you’d have to correct it. But that wasn’t a major thing, I think you’re thinking of a breakdown in the electric

system or something like that. No I can’t think of ever having to do that.

Oh safer because they were new aircraft, and you had four engines instead of two so you could fly reasonably well on three. Whereas flying

on one with a Wellington was a bit tricky. I was frightened of the Liberator when we first flew it because I heard it was so cumbersome and if you stalled it it would be very hard to correct it. Then I flew with this mad Australia who threw it all over the sky and I realised then that they really were quite manoeuvrable. And

the day before I left the squadron I gave it a bit of a try out myself and found out they were quite a manoeuvrable aircraft. You couldn’t do any acrobatics or anything like that but you could turn them quickly and put them into steep dives and that sort of thing, and pull them out without too much trouble. I don’t know why we weren’t taught those things.

Getting everyone back I suppose. But no the pleasure of it, it’s a sensation isn’t it? You’re in charge of a monster and you have a very comfortable flight with it, and its doing what you want it to do.

I don’t know, it’s a feeling of freedom I think that you get when you’re in the air. I suppose safety almost, no one can touch you while your there, they can sort of call you up on the radio and tell you what you’re doing wrong I suppose.

With the Liberator? Well yes they weren’t designed for aerobatics.

No that wasn’t when I was flying, but no it was the Wellington that I cut the motors out by letting the nose get up a bit high, and then I did perfectly the right thing, I put the nose down but I put it down too quickly, I can’t think of the word now, but the pressure forced the petrol up

and both engines were starved. But I didn’t do anything really wrong, except that I did it too quickly.

Possibly did but I can’t remember. I can probably look in the book, they had initials and the famous G for George in our squadron this friend of mine he had a particular pet aircraft that he used to fly I think it was V for Victor. But no I don’t think that we gave ours, unless it was

just whatever the letter had to be, you might’ve given it a name for that occasion. I didn’t fly in any one aircraft enough to get fond of it or attached to it. I have an idea there was a Wellington that we all hated, because it was rough, but that’s a different thing isn’t

it not wanting the aircraft. I think we used to shudder a bit when if you were rostered onto this particular aircraft. And I think it was safe enough it was just rough flying aircraft, possibly been knocked about.

Yes well reading through that diary again we said we were doing the right thing and we invited

these two lorry drivers into the sergeant’s mess one night. And that was a failure because he was Irish and he picked a fight, and I think I was asked not to do it again. But that was just the character and he’d probably had a bit of resentment towards NCOs anyway. I can’t think where else we fraternised.

There were dances in the different towns that we could have gone to but he’d have had his group and we’d have had ours. Not so much from any distinction, but just the people you went with, I’d say g’day to him when I got there. I don’t think we fraternised, well we wouldn’t have had much in common except the fact that he drove us to and

from the aircraft. Oh that’s right the same chap used to take us to the pictures and that was illegal. If we wanted to go to the pictures we’d say to him, you know, “How busy are you tonight?”, and he said, “Oh I think I can manage it”, he’d drive us into town, well if there’d been a call on his vehicle and hadn’t been there he could have got into serious trouble. But that’s the sort of thing you do for mates. I think we gave him presents at different times,

possibly a bit of flying gear or something, flying gloves or something like that that he wouldn’t have got otherwise, and he appreciated it.

I think yes, I don’t think it would have happened with the English. I think it’s just instilled in them that you stick to your own rank.

Sorrento

yes, yes I did. That was when we were on leave from the squadron, we had leave is suppose, not a stress leave, but after you’d flown for a certain while they gave you leave. And we went over to Sorrento. We stayed first of all in a big hotel on the waterfront that was absolutely full of troops and nothing personal about it.

Then we got into a little villa up on the side of the cliffs called Minerva, and it had a woman that ran it, we all knew as Mama, and she made the most beautiful soap. And from there we could go up to Capri or to the grottos or ride bikes up along the coast. And it was a wonderful leave. And there was an interesting place, it was highly

Catholic and they had these processions quite regularly, and they were most colourful. Quite good shops and we did get to know the people a little bit on those two things. And I can remember on one of the bike rides one of our fellows stopped

to talk to this rather strange looking man, and he turned out to be the village idiot, so every village has its idiot. I don’t know how much of an idiot he was but he certainly was on a different wave length. We found that interesting if not amusing.

When we’d done a few trips on the squadron, we hadn’t done many because I was surprised at the time, I had hoped to get a commission at the end of my tour, but it came a good deal quicker than I thought. And it came through, it didn’t come through while I was on the squadron, it didn’t come through until I

was back in Cairo on the way home, and I was able to get all my kit and officer’s things in Cairo. But in the meantime I think I had a pass I could use the officer’s mess. Which I only because I knew someone, ’cause it was a bit embarrassing to walk in without your officer’s (UNCLEAR).

Yes, they didn’t do a great deal of flying after that, I just notice in that, a friend of mine how much he did afterwards, and it wasn’t a great deal. And I came back thinking I was going to get back quickly and we got to Cairo I think it was

and they said, “Oh you’d be quicker to go home via England, we’ll get you on a boat going home to England” and that boat went for ages, so it took me quite a long while to get home.

Exactly, how’d you know.

Well just met this chap, an Australian,

can’t think why he was going back through England but he was. And he knew England fairly well and he was able to get us a flat in Soho I think it was. You went downstairs to it and he had a heavy girlfriend, a steady girlfriend I should say. I saw him every now and again when I got back here, but I’ve lost track of him since. Funnily enough he was a Max

the same as I am, and that had its moments, we’d get confused for each other but that was a very pleasant stay in London. I had to do quite a few things on my own, ’cause he had his lady friend. And I can’t remember much else of what we did, we went and watched a fair bit of sport,

probably cricket on at the time, he was a keen cricketer.

I did go to Savoy Hotel, but not with an uncle. I didn’t have an uncle in London, he had a connection there. No I met these people and they were

going to the Savoy and asked me would I like to come to, and I said, “Oh yes,” and I bought the first round of drinks and that was the end of a week’s pay.

That was very competitive, not so much the fewest number of hours, but first of all that you should succeed,

and then the number of hours, and the less of course the better the pilot you thought you were. But you didn’t take into consideration, was which instructor you had. That’s my story anyway that’s why I took a little bit longer on one aircraft and the next two I got short cut. But you’re quite right it was competitive.

Yes there was a bit. If a chap went through very quickly and had a natural talent you’d soon get to hear of it, and you held him on a different plane. But it levelled out in the end, there was one chap that we all thought, we called him ‘Asap’, because he got through so quickly and he could get into an aircraft and fly it pretty well straight away. But he killed

himself out in the Middle East by flying according to his feelings, the expression we use - By the seat of his pants – and he got into trouble and instead of correcting it as you should if you’d followed the laws or the rules, he tried to get out by the seat of his pants. He got into a dive and it was a particular aircraft that you had to do almost the opposite to what you think you do, and see he followed his instincts and it killed him.

So that’s one of the incidences where being an ace didn’t help, whereas being a thoughtful person would have possibly got him out.

Yes well I don’t think I was ever on powerful

enough or a fast enough aircraft to come across those forces. And luckily I didn’t get into the situation with the aircraft I was flying, that I was going so fast that it had G forces. On the old Tiger Moth, when you were strapped in, and you did a roll you were virtually hanging upside down by your straps. Well that was a physical sensation, but you just remedied that by turning yourself

over.

Well it was quite good fun. I mean everyone had to do it, but I’m sure you did a slow roll in a Tiger Moth.

I didn’t know of any, but I think we might have had one or two who just faded out, and we assumed it was for physical reasons, or health or something. And it could have been that they just mentally couldn’t stand it anymore and the air force were kind enough not to

make public the reason that they were put out.

Not a great deal, I suppose a big heavy aircraft if you’ve got to pull it out of a dive there’s a certain amount of physical strain on that. But one that you shouldn’t be able to cope with.

No I think you know girls are quite able to cope with flying with nearly all aircrafts so there can’t be any physical strain that the average person can’t handle.

I don’t think I ever got into a situation where we were flying continuously

day after day. You had enough pilots and crew or the weather held us up that we didn’t get physically tired. Although, again I read in that diary where we did ask the CO if we could go on leave at one stage. And I didn’t think we’d done that much flying, but we must’ve felt a bit fatigued for some reason or another. And I think it was probably the weather, that just the pressure of being ready to

fly and not being able to got us down a bit. Either that or we just wanted a holiday.

Well you’d know that you wouldn’t be called on again that day. So that you could go into the nearest town and have a look round or

play sport if there was anything available or just play cards I suppose, that was the alternative occupation.

We didn’t get very much contact. Where we went to stay in that hotel

at Sorrento the lady that ran that was very descent to us and seemed to be quite happy for us to be there. But I did make a note in that diary that the Italians in the south of Italy only, seemed to be one of the dirtiest races I’d ever come across. It might have been a bit unkind because they were so hungry and they’d lost their dignity by that time, you know they were accepting

our scraps of food, and we’d never seen that, so I could have misjudged them.

I think so but again you see we were flying from behind the front and we didn’t come across the people as such except in

that town where we were billeted. And I don’t think they liked us much, but they just blamed us for the situation they were in. I think they disliked the Germans even more, but it’s like Iraq now isn’t it? Someone’s going to get the blame for the situation their in.

There was in food, you know they’d grow things and sell it at an exorbitant price and I suppose that’s a form of black marketing. See drugs as far as I know weren’t prevalent in those days so they weren’t being sold. I think if you’d had alcohol

to sell you could have sold it, but I don’t think we could have got hold of much alcohol. ’Cause we drank their wine, it was our sort of staple drink.

Well the exotic dishes I don’t think were available, but we used to buy eggs from the people on the land, and vegetables

to supplement with. We had our own little stove in that tent that I was telling you about, and we’d cook the eggs there and that was a bit of a treat. But being in poverty part of Italy we didn’t come across the good cuisine and that sort of thing. We probably did if we went up to Rome, and I did go up to Rome, we went to Naples and possibly ate fairly well there

but I can’t remember that.

No, no I don’t. ’Cause in England was a different thing. A lot of them made relationships

there and one fellow married a girl and brought her back that I can remember. Well the only other countries I was involved in were the Middle East and I suppose that was too much of a culture difference for them to intermingle. And I don’t remember any of them getting to know Italian girls. Actually when we were in Jerusalem we met a very cultured family and got to know

them quite well, I wouldn’t say we formed a relationship, but we got friendly with this family. I suppose they were much the same intellect we were and they were good company.

Reading the diary again I’m not sure now that it

wasn’t New Year, but it was the same year and we were billeted in a very big old building that might have been a factory. And it was a naffi, do you now what that means? It’s a place where the troops are supplied with food and you can go and buy drinks and that sort of thing. And they had this big New Year’s Eve party there, that we all went to, and ran into quite a lot of Australians that we hadn’t seen ’cause they

were either passing through or they’d come in from the unit to this party. And it was right on an autobahn, which is what you know the very high fast traffic, and some of the Australians got a bit under the weather and walked out onto the autobahn. And we understood at the time that one or two were killed, but we’ve never been able to quite verify it, I hope it wasn’t true but there was enough alcohol that night, where it came from

I don’t know, but it could have been the case. Other than that it was a good party.

I think it would have been yes. ’Cause I’d been to school and then to University.

Possibly I got home from the air force out here for Christmas, I can’t really remember.

I seem to remember being in bed when the news came, so I think someone must have heard in the headquarters of the squadron, and came down and told me. My sort of first reaction was I know it’s not true, last I heard he was alright. And they send it to you in two different telegrams, the first one is

missing in action, then I think the next one is missing believed killed. I suppose that’s to soften the blow a bit. Then of course your first reactions to try and get in contact with your parents, which I don’t think I was able to, I don’t think there was any telephones in those days. And so the next communication was to confirm it and from then on my father made an effort to get me home.

Well I flew at the same training ground that he did at Narromine. And I sort of knew what he’d done there, and then he went down to Uranquinty on singles, single engine and I went to Point Cook on twin engines, so we lost contact a bit there.

Then I knew where he’d gone, he went up into the islands flying Kitty Hawks and I went over the Europe, so we knew what we were doing, and we wrote every now and again, but I wouldn’t say that we were very good correspondents.

Well it was barely a

campaign. He was flying from Morotai and the target was Japanese who were virtually isolated on a peninsula, they couldn’t have got off so they could’ve stayed there until the end of the war. And the air force high command was sending out our flyers on these ridiculous missions, and

to the extent that five or six of the top flyers including Killer Cornwall and Bobby Gibb threatened to resign. It was all a political thing, the Australians wanted to keep command and to keep command they had to prove that they were doing a lot of flying and a lot of good work. Where, in actual fact they were wasting lives. And my brother was sent out on, to staff these Japanese on this peninsula,

he was hit by rifle fire which was a thousand to one chance anyway. And I believe it was his death that sparked this possible revolt of these six seniors, oh John Wattie was another one, he was a well know pilot. But when they found out that once your in the forces you can’t resign your, can’t resign from it your there and you’ve got to do as your told. But I think it had some effect

and the targets weren’t as stupid from then on. That’s not much consolation to my brother or his parents.

They were trying to console me if anything, and I suppose I was trying to console them. We were each

trying to buck the other up. But I suppose you know it’s a possibility so you’re prepared in case it came along, then you don’t want to believe it when it does. You know it changes their whole lives around, I wasn’t going on the land I was going to be a dentist, and I came home to the property.

I don’t know, I don’t think that they were a terribly eloquent bunch, that they could have said much but “Gee mate I’m sorry”, but they did express the feeling very clearly that they were sorry that I was going, it was going to bust the crew up. ’Cause were getting near the end of the war over there and the job wouldn’t have lasted for much longer,

would have been nice to have finished as a crew, and I hope I made that clear to them. I’m sure I did because two of them we’ve kept in contact right through until one died this year. We’d exchange Christmas cards ever since. And I actually went to his wedding, I happened to be in England when he got married, just after the war. That’s another story, a couple of friends from home

hadn’t been overseas and they decided they’d like to go. I said, “Well I’d like to go back”, so we went. But I don’t think my father was too pleased but….

No when this news came through about my brother and then I think my father told me

that he had applied for me to go home on compassionate grounds I think we call it. And so I went to the CO and said, “You will probably hear this, I’d like you to know it’s not my doing. I’m very happy where I am and I don’t really think it’s necessary for me to go home,” and the CO said to me, “Don’t worry about it it won’t happen” he said “I’ve not heard of anyone being sent home on that sort of compassionate grounds” and I said, “Well

I’m not concerned I can put up with it and I’d like to stay here with the crew”. And about two days time word did come through that I could go home.

Well I think the war was virtually over at that time. Particularly in this European part, and that I wasn’t really needed, and I think also the fact that we had a property and I could probably do more good

working on the land, than I could staying over here. I don’t think any, I can’t think of any political influence that was brought to burn, my mother’s brother was, had a bit of influence in the air force cause he’d been a pilot himself, but he said he didn’t pull any strings. I think it must have been just the timing which I was grateful for in a way

and then disappointed in another.

Oh on the way home? Well not really because my crew was out in Italy so there was nowhere I could join up with over there.

And I knew I was going home I suppose, it was just a matter of filling in time till I got there. I met a few people and enjoyed myself.

I think that we were very competitive actually, I think our pay compared to the English we were probably better off. I thought I could live on what we got quite comfortably, but the Savoy’s a different scene altogether. If you go in there you know that you’ve got to pay. And I suppose I was foolish to offer to buy drinks.

But I don’t think they’d have expected me to, I had to money so it was there.

Well I think they knew the war was virtually over and that we were going to be the victors, so it was pretty

cheerful. There was obviously sadness in the areas that had been completely devastated, you could still get that feeling. But generally speaking it was a feeling of victory.

Only to the extent I suppose that I’d done

all I’d been asked to do. Nothing heroic, I suppose we did the jobs that we’d been asked to do satisfactorily and just hoped that they were of some value, in knocking out railway yards, dropping supplies and that sort of thing, must have been of some value. But I don’t think the war would have been lost or won without me.

I think we watched a bit of cricket. And I’d met a few people in England before we gone out to the Middle East, I think I took up with them

again. There was no romance if that’s what you think, although I had met a couple of families and a couple of girls involved. I just think this one particular chap who had a steady girlfriend then, he and I did an awful lot together,

and what it was I can’t really think, apart from theatres and pictures. I don’t think we played any sport ourselves unless it might have been a bit of squash, that’s all I can think of.

That’s a good question. I read a little bit, at one stage I even tried to learn French, only in that I bought a book that was written in French and tried to get my way through it. I’m not an intellectual I wouldn’t have studied anything I don’t think, art or

paintings. No I think sport was probably a great release. I’m competitive and that can get rid of a fair few of your frustrations and so on.

I think I’d already got the nod that I was coming home but was another

linking up with transport on the way home and I think I had to wait for a ship. We were staying in this unit in Soho or Chelsea, I’m not sure which, and they probably contacted me there and told me to report at such and such a time, on the dock at Southampton I suppose it was. And I caught the ship and just came home.

After the VE Day, the VE Day was, I think we were in London at the time.

Yes I think I do. I can’t remember what we did to celebrate. I don’t think it was

as ecstatic in London as it obviously was out here. I can’t remember great excitement in the streets, but I’d have to check on that. The buzz bombs and that sort of thing, I can remember those coming and finishing. Then the great waves of aircraft stopped by the time

I came home. No I can’t remember quite where I was on the VE Day now. I know, no that was my 21st birthday I had on board ship in the harbour at, oh dear what’s the fortress just below Spain?

Oh there’s been an awful lot of trouble over as to who owned it.

Gibraltar. So I was I the harbour there on the 21st birthday I can remember that.

Played sport on the ship and had a few drinks that was the limit, I probably wrote a letter home.

Oh well, I had a girl that I’d left behind, I used to write to her, wrote to my mother regularly, occasionally to my brother. I don’t know if I ever wrote to my sister, she was too young. A few of the

older people, an uncle I think I used to correspond with him, and there was a lady that I used to go and stay with from school, whose son was a friend of mine, and she used to love to write and to get letters, so occasionally I’d write to her. She, that was her good deed for the war, I think it was to cheer me up. And I’m afraid the attitude I took was ‘oh, not another letter’.

I’ve got to answer. That’s about all I think.

Oh we do think so much of you boys how wonderful you are flying aeroplanes and that sort of guff, about boosting our confidence more than anything. She was a very nice person I shouldn’t decry but I didn’t have much to say to her on return, that was the trouble.

I had an aunt in Melbourne that I had stayed with when we were at Point Cook, it was sort of my home, and I used to correspond with them, or with her quite a lot.

Well from my father it would be what the weather was like and he sold some sheep and whether the crops were going to be any good.

And then sort of the social events from my mother, who’d married who, what was going on. They were very good at hiding the truth, you know another cousin was killed in the desert and they didn’t tell me about that until I got home, things like that.

Yes there was and right at the very last moment a terrible sense of frustration ’cause we were on a troop ship and it came into Darling Harbour I think it was, and the Duke of Gloucester was suppose to come and welcome us home,

and he was an hour late. And he’d been given an awful razz and we were so furious, we could see our relatives on the wharf and here was this bloke who we didn’t think a great deal of at the time, keeping us waiting. But I suppose we were delighted to be home and as soon as I got home,

well nearly as soon as I got home, I got critically ill. No one seemed to know what the matter was and a doctor here in Orange I think found out I’d picked up chronic malaria coming through the Panama Canal, and it’s the malaria that you only get once it doesn’t recur, but it can kill you. And they thought it was meningitis so they treated me for that. I had quite a while

being ill before it was diagnosed and treated. So I think the pleasure of being home probably I didn’t notice very much.

I can’t remember much of it except that there again it was so hot that we spent a lot of our time on deck, hence I think being bitten by mosquitos

and getting this malaria. I’d never been through that part of the world before and it was very intriguing. And then we sailed down to Wellington New Zealand, and I don’t think we did anything on the way down, you sailed as direct as you could. And I think we were without escort because it was an ex passenger liner that could go fairly fast.

We had a day or two leave in Wellington and then came on home, fairly uneventful.

Well the way it was built, I mean the problems they had to solve there and I had no idea how long it was, how it had extended. And living alongside it must have been

terribly dangerous for the people that lived there. I mean if I was on a boat and I got malaria what would they get living there. I suppose they became immune to the mosquitoes, but it seemed to be hot, seemed to be illness in the air, I don’t know whether I imagined that. And the people were anything but friendly. They were non-

committal I suppose they didn’t ever wave to us or show any emotion that we were coming through on a troop ship, probably wasn’t their war I suppose.

No. We were only there for the time it took to go through the rocks. Oh we might have been pulled up in Panama itself for half a day but

wasn’t time for any leave. And I can’t remember I think we sailed direct to Panama from England and then straight across to Wellington. And yes we did get off at Wellington I think we had a day in Wellington.

Well there was one very loud voice from the background when he arrived saying “Teddy wouldn’t have done that”, that was his brother Prince of Wales I think, and he was very popular with the Australians. And so this voice, “Teddy wouldn’t have done that, Teddy wouldn’t have kept us waiting”. And I think it was just general boos typical Australian,

he made a speech to us welcoming us home I don’t think anyone could hear what he said. He had a bit of a soft voice anyway, and we didn’t want to hear what he had to say.

Don’t think so, no I think I was too much of a Royalist to go to that extent, but I felt very angry with him.

I may have booed I’m not sure

Oh my parents were there, I think my sister was there, I think she got out of school to come down for the day. That would be all I think, perhaps that uncle that I used to see quite a lot of. Although I think we spent the night at his place before we

drove home so he may not have come to the boat.

I don’t think a great deal, I think this aunt and uncle had the other uncle and we probably had dinner that was probably the extent of it,

and its quite possible that I was already beginning to feel a bit strange, I don’t know how long the incubation is for malaria, but it was only a couple of days after I got home that I got so sick. But we drove home, they’d driven down, must have been able to give them warning that we were coming home. I don’t suppose they were lucky to get

torpedoed between New Zealand and Australia at that time.

Might have been a bit worried, no I don’t think we were at all worried I think the U-boats had virtually ceased by that time, they’d been corralled kept in the one area, and I don’t think there was much between Europe and American and American and

New Zealand, I think those seas were pretty clear by that time. It would have had to have been a U-boat out on its own trying to get revenge of some sort, but I don’t think there was any danger.

No, I was virtually on my own from the time they said you’ve got to go home. There was I think I reported to

somebody to get my uniform and things when I was commissioned, and I probably had to report to somebody in England but that was all. The rest of the time you just look after yourself.

Well it would be if you were going to do any more flying or be attached to a squadron, I mean you’d be under their eagle eye all the time, but

the fact that I’d been virtually dismissed from the air force and was coming home, I don’t think I was under their control at all.

Practically nothing, I think I made a note of it in my diary and I think I expressed my feelings at the time and I’ve since crossed it out, so I don’t know whether I got too sentimental or what it was. Just having a look through it now, I haven’t looked at it for ages.

No well there was no physical way I could show anything but just by writing.

Yes he was buried up in the islands there is a grave, which has been very hard to visit. I’ve been trying to get up there for years now but every time I think I’ve got somebody that’s going there, there’s another outbreak of violence.

It was Timor I think is the area he was buried at, there was an Australian war grave and it looked to be very well kept and I think there are a group that go over there from Darwin on Anzac Day. We went to Darwin some years ago and I made enquiries and they said that they wouldn’t advise anyone going there now, until it’s settled

down again.

No I don’t think so,

I think they possibly went to the local church, close to that time and the Minister probably said something. But I rather think that painting that I showed you is my father’s way of a memorial it’s something permanent and it was showing him doing what he felt was the right thing for his service.

That’s why I’m so delighted you know that I didn’t give it away, I was tempted to. But no, no that’s the only record. I have heard of people out our way, in fact my cousin, who was wounded but didn’t die from it, he died later and his wife put a little stone I think in the garden, and then promptly sold the property. So the people that live there now have got a white

memorial stone in the middle of their garden, which is not quite fair.

Well it’s very hard to remember anything concrete,

because there was no real dream attached to it, it was just this feeling of wanting to come back to reality and yet you kept going into sort of a vacuum and feeling terrible. And it’s one of the worst feelings I think I’ve ever had, cause you don’t know what’s wrong or why it’s happening. The doctor didn’t seem to know either, not the local doctor.

I don’t think he treated I think it was just one of those things that just passes and if it’s not fatal you right. I don’t know what meningitis would have been like, much the same symptoms I take it and there was a bit of that about.

I wouldn’t have been officially discharged until I got back here to Australia, and I think that was just paper work I don’t think I had to report anywhere. I think you became a reserve officer to

His Majesty’s Air Force and they sent you a piece of paper thank you very much, and that was it. And then I think that being on the reserve has ceased to exist now, for a while I think you were automatically on the reserves, now it doesn’t mean anything, oh except that they look after us with a gold card, which were very grateful.

Well I stayed at home for a little while and then as sort of part of my training for going on the land I went Jackerooing, and I was with a family at Wagga for six months.

And that was a little bit difficult in that the son who was running the place had just come home from school and I’d just come out from being an officer in the air force, and so I had to buckle down and do what I was told, and that was a bit difficult. But they were very good family to me and they had their own problems.

I was grateful for the amount they taught me.

No I can’t I’d have to, well I don’t think it’s even in the diary. And I have to find out what the dates of those were and check up and to see where I was.

Should have meant more to me shouldn’t it?

I suppose the pressure was there because there was nobody else to help my father, but he never put any verbal pressure on me. I think he just took it for granted I’d go home and he arranged for me to go Jackerooing with these people as a training. And he involved me in the sheep stud that he had there,

which I think was rather clever way of keeping me at home because I had the sheep stud to look after. And I lived with the family in the house for a number of years. No there wasn’t any real pressure I think I could have ducked out, he’d have been very disappointed if I had. I didn’t really want to go on the land and then later on I don’t think I really wanted to do dentistry

so. But one stage I went to England with a couple of mates afterwards and I forget which time it was. And I was offered a job over there by a fairly influential businessman, and I think that’s what I would have really like to have done. Oh that’s right it was on my way home this happened, because I told him no I can’t I’ve got to go home I’ve been given

word from the air force that I finished and I can go on home, and I’ve got something that I’ve got to do when I get there, so I can’t stay. But I think I would have like to have stayed there but, this was a very wealthy man who liked his sport. I think I would have enjoyed the life. I may have regretted it tremendously if I had stayed I might’ve just been a roustabout doing whatever he wanted. Quite an amusing little story,

when I was there with him he took me to dinner at the Dorchester with his wife. And it’s a hotel with a tiny little dance floor, as most of those hotels had. And he said, “Have a dance with my wife, she’s a very good dancer”, that wasn’t my problem I just wondered whether I could keep up with her. And we were dancing, and it was a fairly lively dance, and somebody swished past and knocked her feet from under her and I caught her and didn’t let her drop.

When we went back to the table he was so grateful that his wife hadn’t been embarrassed that I think that’s why he said to me, “Would you like to stay over here and work for me”. And that’s my story anyway.

Well I missed the companionship of the men. I went back to a small town and got myself involved in sport in the small town and local activities. But I did miss something, I missed that comradeship

of the fellows, there’s nothing really to take its place. I think I joined the Masonic lads and Legacy and they filled in part of the gap. That’s about all.

No,

I’d only been to one dinner where there was a port passing and I don’t think it was an air force dinner. No I can’t think of anything that is distinct to the air force that we do. Even here in the Air Force Association we meet once a month but we haven’t got any rituals. Oh we have a dinner to.

No I can’t really think of anything that is particularly air force. I was a member of a club called the Imperial Service Club that was for officers in various services, and it was to them that I offered this painting, cause I thought that would

be an appropriate place, they had a building in Sydney that they had club rooms in. And Susan and I went there to stay once and one of the committee men was so rude to us that I withdrew the offer of the painting, resigned from the Club. He still thought there was a war on I think and he was, he’d been a major in the army or something, and he treated us like privates.

Which he did me a very good service, actually I would have been terribly upset if I didn’t have the paining now.

I think it was a great venue for meeting people that you wouldn’t have otherwise. I mean if you go to university, which was probably the alternative, you would only get to meet perhaps two or three fellows that were doing the same

course you were doing, or playing the same sport. Whereas in the air force it was so diverse, looking through that album now my great regret is that there are names that keep cropping up that I obviously did quite a lot of, spent quite a lot of time with them, knew them well, and I’ve lost track of them. I regret now that I didn’t write down their address and write to them or keep in some sort of contact.

It was a great joy to me to get the Christmas card every near from my navigator and then to see my bomb aimer once a year. And then this other chap whose diary I’ve been reading how he did a similar line of action as I did, its great to keep in contact with him again.

And I suppose it gave you those opportunities that you wouldn’t have got in another sphere.

I think it probably makes you a

little bit more thoughtful about other people. You’ve got the attitude of caring for someone, when you’ve got a crew. I think having been a pilot and Captain of a crew as a great benefit and advantage, whereas if I’d have been a crew member I wouldn’t have had the same attachment. So I suppose it’s taught me to, well

almost take charge of a group of people. I don’t know whether that has helped me in other ways but every now and again I do a speech at a wedding or eulogy, and I think, thinking of the right things to say possibly come to bat from my experience in the air force.

You’re aware of people’s sentiments and their feelings and you make an effort to express it in the speech, and I just wonder whether that would have occurred to me if I hadn’t been thinking of a crew at one stage. Does that make sense?

Well I think the fact that our lives were bound to each other, if they’d made an error or I’d made an error we could have killed each other.

And I think that’s probably the greatest bond of all. I mean just generally being good friends I think was the other thing, perhaps see there’s two or three of the crew that I’ve lost touch with. And while we had an obligation to each other because we flew together their personalities and mine didn’t mean a great deal to

each other, whereas my navigator and my bomb aimer did. So it’s more than just being dependent on the other one for safety, it’s having a similar personality I suppose.

I think to understand what they had to do was essential. And the air force must’ve realised that because we did a basic training in all those bits. We probably could have taken over any one of them, had failed for any reason.

And understanding what they were doing I suppose that’s you didn’t harass your navigator. We’re lost! he was having trouble you’d give him time to get you out of it, ’cause you knew what the difficulties were he was having. I thank the air force for understanding I mean they knew what you needed to know and they taught us that. I was just looking a while ago at

some of the subjects we did there, there’s a whole list of subjects there, following astrology, different sorts of mathematics, air currents and that sort of thing. But all good general knowledge, I don’t know whether it helped us or not but I kept your brain alive anyway.

Well that’s a thought. ’Cause they didn’t have any training in actual flying. They did the other sort of basic subjects,

I think theirs was probably more the case of trust than mine was, they had to trust that I’d been properly taught and that I had the ability to carry it out. And that flows back onto them, I mean you get, you know if they do trust you and that there prepared to fly with you with a feeling of safety.

No I think that was one of the few occasions that I didn’t get a nickname. And I think it was just Max or Boss, I think they used to refer to the pilot as Boss

occasionally. I can’t think of any nicknames going through, and they were all just known by their Christian names.

No, he was Jack, and we’d just say it was Jack.

Vic was the, oh well I suppose Vic was a bit of a nickname, his surname was Vickery and we called him Vic, his real name was Alistair or something, it was rather highfalutin and didn’t suit him at all. Bit of a surprise to us when we found him, contacted him

years after the war and found out he was a policeman, because we always said he was a bit of a larrikin.

Oh that’s a hard one. I don’t know getting your wings was the, sort of the first aim, and I suppose that was perhaps the most impressive one.

Getting a commission fairly early was another one, but there was no particular moment to that. The CO of the squadron just came to me and asked me would I accept a commission, which surprised me. Apparently some Australians didn’t want to hold a commission then, and he was just testing the water before he put in a recommendation that I’d get a commission.

I suppose those were the two occasions, you’d achieved what you’d started out on.

Oh yes, never doubted that he was proud of what we’d done. I played it down I suppose and didn’t think about it much and kept in the background because it would have brought up a memory of my brother, you know must have been foremost in his mind, I’m sure that he’d

lost his eldest son and therefore I dodged round the issue.

Possibly much more important than I gave it credit for at the time. I didn’t particularly enjoy it, living in somebody else’s house and being treated as a Jackeroo which was a fairly lowly station in life. They were good to me and I met other people and that’s always good to go into another sphere, and the training was good for the job I was going to do when I got

home. At the time I didn’t feel that it was necessary but just a good idea.

I think it was always there in my upbringing and my father’s upbringing. His family were a bit stiff upper lip type I suppose, he never complained he never showed pain of any sort. In fact he must have been a bit hard to live with I think. That was his attitude.

Just a little story another story that (UNCLEAR) [was not part of?] the war but his outlook on life. When I was at school I did a bit of boxing and in my last year there I had won a couple of bouts and I said to my father, “Now I can either go in the weight two down which I’m pretty likely to win,

or I can go in the open, in the heavy weight”, and I said, “I don’t know how I’ll get on, now which would you like me to do?” and his answer was that I was only 10 stone 7 when I won the open. So it didn’t leave me any option did it? I think he’d won it at a very light weight so that’s what he expected me to do.

No I don’t think I ever thought of it as being a satisfaction. I suppose I was satisfied with I’d done all that was asked of me,

and I could have done more I expect, but I suppose that’s why I am now still involved in the Ex-Servicemen Associations, its just something that I started and I’m keeping on with. I’m the secretary of the little sub-branch at Cumnock even though I live in here for the RSL, and that’s I suppose just to

keep it going and for the ex-servicemen that are left.

Well until that fifty years’ anniversary nobody talked much about their service,

and then there just seemed to be an opening when the fifty years’ anniversary, ex-serviceman seemed to think well now’s the time we’re all going to talk and it’s not embarrassing or going around blowing our own trumpet if we talk about it. And there has been a lot of revealing, and what you’re doing is I suppose an extension of that which is great. I think whoever promoted that fifty years’ anniversary did us all a

service that made it a time that we could all say what we had done and what we felt.

Well I think must be for the children, the oncoming generation to see how we felt and what esteem we had for our

country that we’d put ourselves at this risk. And whether we’d expect them to do the same or not I don’t know, but if we show them what we done they can then make up their own mind.

I think first of all make up your own mind. If you think it’s justified, if you do well then go ahead and save your country, but if you think that it’s not justified

well then let your conscience tell you what to do, no one should think any worse of them. I think in our days there was a bit of it that we were expected rather than left to make up our own mind. That was probably easier for us, we knew that this was what was expected of us and we just do it. Whereas some others might’ve thought it

out very deeply and decided that they didn’t want to be a part of it, but then they turn up and be a part of it, they shouldn’t expect any help later on, I mean there not entitled to well handouts that are accrued due to the war.

Actually I think there was some people who resent the fact that were getting these gold cards now, and I can’t see that attitude, and not that they mightn’t be worthy of the same sort of treatment, but we’ve had the good fortune to have gone and come back and I think that it should be appreciated,

now I’m sermonising.

I’m a bit like you I’d don’t know whether your expressing the opinion, but I don’t like these blood and

guts speeches at Anzac Day. I don’t think there necessary but I think it’s a great occasion to tell people the great mateship that you can get out of a thing like a conflict where you all joining together. I think that’s probably what I got out of service more than anything else was the mateship and that

can go on until the rest of your life. You know if you look after your neighbours and your neighbours look after you, the world is not a bad place to be in. I think that’s all it is it’s just to keep friends together and to remember those mates that you had. It’s a way of saying you know you haven’t died in vain were still thinking about you. But it’s certainly not a case of we’ve done it

so you’ve got to do it too.

That’s alright. The schools are being very good in this regard, they’re fostering Anzac Day without the blood and guts but I think just as a way of showing respect for those that were there.

I think it’s, I don’t know about importance but it’s terribly helpful thing for the younger people to give them something to admire. If they can think that our ancestors were prepared

to, well put their lives at risk for the sake of this country, well then the country must be worth something. To give them an interest in the country and their surroundings and their fellows. I can’t think of anything else that would do it as well as Anzac Day.

What who should be responsible for ensuring the peace you mean?

Do you think that we’ve made a mess of it? That’s a thing I couldn’t answer that I don’t know whether it could have been done better. I think the Ex-Services Organisations have done their best to keep the government in line in that regard.

Well no not without getting into deep water here. But the Ex-Services Association have a meeting every year and they outline a policy and I think a lot of it has been very helpful to keep Australia

thinking the way it has. Obviously I’m a bit of a Royalist but I think if we lose our flag there’s going to be a backward step. I don’t say I’m against a republic but I just think the values that we had by being

servicemen are worth keeping and I think it’s the service organisations that are keeping these to the front or otherwise I think they’d all be lost. No I’m getting into deep water here but I’d have to think a bit more carefully.

No I think you’ve covered it all. I don’t want to give the impression that I am conceited about what has happened, but you’ve given

me the opportunity to speak about it and for that I’m grateful. That’s all it has been is to tell you what my impressions were. Thank you.