Australians at War Film Archive

I was born on the 23rd January, 1923 in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland. My father was a smallholder, small farming area. He died when I was seven and my mother was left with six children.

That was during the early part of the Depression and the resulting era, so we lost the farm and then we had a move to other accommodation. I went to school, the local school, the parochial school and then to Christian Brothers in Omagh, which is the capital of County Tyrone.

From there, we went to Belfast on account of there was more work available in that area. Then in 1937 we moved to England because at that particular time the Depression was easing everywhere and there was plenty of employment in the Midlands. I lived in Birmingham from 1937

to 1939 and in 1939 my brother and sister who’d come to Australia in 1930, wrote and said would one more of us come out. So I put my hand up, being the adventurous kind and I arrived in Sydney on the 1st of June, 1939. My uncle,

who was a Gallipoli man and served in France too and was wounded three times, he had a small hotel in Sydney, The Prince Alfred. I stayed there for a week and then went to Canberra and my brother was in the butchering business which I started off with and I stayed in Canberra from 1939 until I turned eighteen and then I enlisted in the

AIF [Australian Imperial Force], which was on the 23rd May, 1939. In that time, I spent nine weeks at Tamworth. We went first as reinforcements there to the 8th Division and then in the September we were transferred to Infantry Reinforcements for the 2/4th Battalion and proceeded to the Middle East on the

3rd of September, 1939. On arrival in the Middle East we had completed our infantry training and one Sunday morning after we had come back from church, a very dapper major and his offsider came along and wanted to know was anybody interested in transferring to the artillery because the artillery regiments were being changed from two batteries to three and they needed

extra trained personnel. So I jumped the fence and joined the 2/5th Field Regiment at a place called Nu Surat, which is now the centre of most of the trouble in the Gaza Strip and then on the 7th December, 1941 the Japanese came into the war and instead of us going up to the desert to relieve 9th Division,

we were redirected home to Australia. We left Quastina, that’s a small place near Jericho in Palestine and proceeded to Suez where we got on a ship called the New Amsterdam, which was the equivalent to the Queen Mary or Queen Elizabeth and it had never carried passengers before and it belonged to the Dutch government. We went from there to Bombay,

but they were very hesitant about taking it any further south so we got on another small ship to Colombo for seven days and then we sailed one morning, the Orcades, three or four other ships, but I can’t recall the names, sailing for Java, but then they suddenly realised after we’d been out 24 hours that people like us,

artillery regiments, our guns were on another ship in northern India, so what’s the good of sacrificing these people. So next morning we saw the light again and it was back in Colombo. But we unloaded three units who were taken prisoner a fortnight later. Then, by the good grace of John Curtin [Prime Minister Australia] he refused to send the division to Burma and we came home to Australia and arrived in

late March and from there we were in Adelaide for three weeks and from there we went to Tenterfield. From Tenterfield to Kilcoy which was then part of the Brisbane Line, which most people have heard about it. It was supposed to be the rest of Australia and that was to defend the lower part of Australia.

And on 20th of August we got movement orders and it was for a place called Fall River, which was the secret name for Milne Bay and we arrived there two days before the Japanese invasion. From there we went into action possibly two nights after the Japs

landed. On the third night, two of our officers, Athol Bird and Brian Gilhooley were with the forward battalion which was the 2/10th at a place called KB Mission and it was complete chaos. Nobody knew who was who or what was what and Bird and Gilhooley were killed and fortunately the signallers and their assistants who were with them they escaped

by getting into the water and walking two mile back along the beach. And after that where the Japs attacked in force. They attacked Number 3 strip two nights later and we counted the dead the next morning and there was 54 that we could see of and that was the start of the retreat for the Japanese but they fought all the way right back to the days of the evacuation

so so much how tough the fighting was that one of the 2/9th Battalion corporals, John French, he won the VC [Victoria Cross] at a place called Ahioma, which was close to where the Japanese landed. It was only a short eleven day campaign, but the Australians lost 284 and I think the

Japanese were supposed to be around 800. Then the balance of the regiment which was still at Kilcoy, they came up to Port Moresby and then down to Milne Bay and 55 Battery which was the third battery in the regiment they were sent to the Buna/Salamaua campaign and they were there for the next 4 months

and 10 Battery they had a short engagement at a place called Goodenough Island. They went there with the 2/12th Battalion and then from there, the regiment was reformed again at Moresby, and were left to rot from April ’43

to January ’44 working on roads and unloading ships at Port Moresby. It was a very devastating time for that part of the unit. We were a highly trained technical unit and here we were doing labourers’ work. Then in January ’44, they came around; they were forming a group called the Naval Bombardment Group which was

army signallers and officers to go with the landings of invasions to direct the fire of the naval ships by the army people so they didn’t kill a lot of us. I volunteered to go to the school down at Flinders Naval Base simply because there was a chance of getting back to Australia. Two days later the whole regiment moved and they all went on

leave and four of us we had spent six weeks at Flinders Naval Depot, which was an experience that I will never forget. It was, they accepted us very very well, but we decided, the four of us that we didn’t want to leave the regiment so we arranged not to qualify. I came back to the regiment then in 1944. They were at Petrie which was outside Brisbane prior to our

going to the Atherton Tablelands and the battery commander, a delightful man called Tom Brown, called me and he says “Gunner McGirr, what’s this, you’ve failed the course.” I said “Sir I didn’t want to leave the regiment.” Completely forgiven. From there we went to the Atherton Tablelands, which if you haven’t been there, go there. It’s one of the most beautiful parts of the world. And in that area there were at one time

I suppose 150,000 – 200,000. It was the training area because there was no diseases, no malaria or anything. It was just living like kings and as fit as a rabbit and then in June ’45 7th Division was moved down to Townsville and the next thing we were

on the ships going to Morotai, which was the jumping off place for the Borneo landings. On the 1st July we landed at Balikpapan which was a short sharp campaign not easy, the Japanese fought very very well and we lost I think 5 killed and 11 wounded, which is high for an artillery regiment.

Then in mid July we heard various rumours of a big bomb has been dropped in Japan. On the 8th August, 1945 the bomb was dropped at Hiroshima. Two days later the one at Nagasaki. Then on the 14th, the war

finished. They came around looking for volunteers to go to Japan for the Occupation Forces, British Commonwealth Occupation Force. Half a dozen of us then decided that instead of rushing home and getting caught up in the heavy traffic of discharge and everything. I went to Japan for a year. Which was very very very educational. The Japanese didn’t resent us in any way. There was

no bad feelings. They were living pretty roughly and part of the occupation force’s job was to repatriate the 2.5 million Japanese that were in China who had never been defeated. Ujina is the port for Hiroshima and that’s the port that they came back through, but they just were disarmed of course. No problems with

it, just given the numbers and sent them back to where they came from and that was it. I went up with the first lot to Japan and came back with the first lot. And when I came back I went back to Canberra for a few months but Canberra was not the place for me. I then, a friend of mine had gone to New Guinea to work for a gold mining company and he had written to me and

recommended that I come up there. I went there in 1948 and stayed there from ’48 to ’61. I was married there and my daughter was born there. They were great times. Bulolo, the place we were in was what was known as “a company town”. It was owned by the company, the stores and everything was owned by the company and in 1961

we decided to come back to Australia because independence was looming and didn’t take place for another 14 years but we decided to come back to Australia and I came back to Australia and went in the motor business with a firm called Capitol Motors. We were the importers of Nissan Datsun to New South Wales. My function in the company was

getting the cars cleared from the waterfront which I spent most of my time, to the dealers. I was there for 23 years and then Nissan Motor Company resumed their distributorship and one of the directors in Melbourne said “Charles would you like to come with us?” and I was with Nissan Motor Company for 5 years. Including in that

time was a trip to Japan for 5 weeks to visit the factory and you could see the difference from 1948 til 1969. It was really remarkable. Then I retired at 65 and I have been retired for 14 years and I’ve really enjoyed it. I am President of the Regimental Association simply because I’m the youngest

one that’s still surviving and out of approximately 2,800 members, the original 800, plus the reinforcements coming, there’s 128 of us left. Which is the normal thing. Its just natural attrition. And we have a very strong regimental association.

On Anzac Day we have a luncheon in one of the leading hotels now which we invite the families to and this year we had 95. That’s grandsons, widows, and what have you. But we hope that – well we can’t hope much longer – that in another two or three years that some of the young people will take over the executive part of the Association.

Well in that part of

Northern Ireland, it’s predominantly a Catholic area, but our neighbours were Methodists and Presbyterians, there was never in my memory any anti one religion one way or the other. At the harvest time everybody helped the people next door and you’ve probably heard of it, it’s three years

this August, that big bomb explosion in a place called Omagh, well Omagh’s the capital of it and I know the place where it went off. I can imagine it now, just sitting looking at you,

because I went to school there. There was no sectarian anti-this, anti-that, like it evolved later,

and I hope it's finished now for all times. But, that part of Ireland is very, very productive. County Tyrone. People know that on the small farms, have three or four motor cars, where they used to have a horse and cart. Because the European Community and their beef production, their beef is one of the best in the world. And it's ...

I've been back three times, but I have ... it's .. they say, it's not a family, it's a tribe. I've got cousins by the scores, but they're all doing well, they've all got good jobs, well educated, and the whole things come through hard work. And the Irish economy at the moment, particularly ... they've got a net ...

instead of exporting labour, they're bringing people in, they're bringing north Africans in to do factory jobs. There's very strict rules, they can only stay for twelve months.

Well, my ... I can remember ... I was seven when my father died. I can, you know, just remember him.

My mother was a very tenacious, hard-working woman. When he died, she was left with big problems, financially, and looking after a large family. But I can remember a very happy childhood, very happy childhood.

Oh, a big struggle, a big struggle. She was a very tenacious woman.

Adversity, yes.

A good, a good ... she was a great money manager. When we moved to England, within three years she had bought two houses, and was paying them off, which was something in those days. I mean, a house in those days was probably two hundred thousand ... ah, two hundred pounds.

It was, shall we say, particularly in the cities like Belfast. Belfast had an industry, Harland & Wolff, the shipbuilders. They were reasonably well off with shall we say. The depression in Ireland and England and everywhere was was just as hard or maybe worse than here.

Oh yes, extremely.

Well, there was my eldest sisters, two of them, they couldn't get jobs. My eldest brother, he was a teacher, couldn't get a job. This was just the ... the... the same thing applied here. You know, it was ... I think it was the whole situation that was worldwide, like in America and the

food queues, and that sort of thing.

He had got sick very quickly and he died of cancer of the liver in about matter of about six months. Just went like that. And I can remember ... we were too young to go to his funeral and that, but I can remember him quite well, he was ... hard working man. That's just one of those things that happened. He was sixty,

which these days is young to be falling off the perch, shall we say. But no, the Depression had a lasting effect on everybody I think. My family and families that I know and families when I came out here and heard what they had ... struggling through. But that's about it, something that what we hope will never happen again,

because the social systems in those days, there was no ... there was no dole, there was no widow's pension, there was none of that. That's when you ... were left, you were left, and that was it.

I had ... there was eight in the family. There was four boys and four girls. Two came out here in 1930, they're both dead and gone now of course, they would have been in their 90's now.

And it was a big family, but big families in those days survived ... as best you could.

I was the second youngest. I was the second youngest, and there's three of us left now. A brother and sister in England and me here.

Well, the little parochial

school, you know, was very, very good and then when I went to Christian Brothers, they had a reputation of hardness, and toughness. But they got the best out of everybody. It's ... good. In those times, you had to leave school when you were fourteen, to try and get a job to keep the fires burning, sort of thing. I left school when I was fourteen, with what you would call here, now, the QC sort of thing...

Oh well, I mean they had the strap that you got if you didn't behave. But, I mean, they were hard tough blokes. My teacher was a fellow who played soccer for Ireland, had been in China for ten years. Brother Hamil, but he was hard and tough, but if you didn't do ... you got

the strap ... and plenty of it. You've heard of the Christian Brothers strap, haven't you?

No, they could have it that wide, or that wide. But it was down in their gown, it was down the side. When they reached for that, you knew you were in trouble.

Yeah, just in a pocket down the side of the black ... type of robe they'd wear, but they were

good teachers.

Misbehaving. Not doing what you're told. But it was a marvelous education system.

Well to be thinking ahead, thinking ahead and try to forsee what's going to happen.

But I, I appreciated my education by the Christian Brothers because you knew if you didn't obey the rules, you were in trouble.

Well ... I suppose ... not a great deal, because I was working in England for eighteen months in a

factory, in a factory job, and then when I came to Australia, you didn't ... education didn't matter in the butchering business, because it was ... keeping the books and things like that. But it helped me later in my time in the Army, to absorb things, like I became a signaller when I joined the ... the artillery, and in technical units, if you had a bit of education,

you survived better than others. But...

Oh yes, I should have. When I came back after the war I was unsettled when I came back. I should have gone in for, you know, a profession, but I had the knowledge up here to do it. But I suppose laziness got me. When I went to New Guinea, I had been only there two and a half years,

I went there as a general hand, completely ignorant of any mining techniques or anything. Within two and a half years, I was acting dredge master, and I continued ... and all the time I was with Bulolo gold dregding. I was dredgemaster at one time on every dredge that was there, which was a huge responsibility. And the mechanical knowledge that I gained

there ... I had a job to go to in South America. Some of my fellows that I worked with, they went down there ... one's still there. Malaysia they were just breaking their neck to get people like us. Then I decided that I had enough of mining and came back and got into the motor business which was very rewarding act.

I ... no. No. We used to see ... we used to see at Omah, Omah was a garrison town which the Royal Irish Rifles was the depot battalion, and we used to see all these fellas marching to church of a Sunday and various things. But I had my two uncles Mick and Barney. Barney come out here in 1910,

and Mick in 1912. Barney was wounded twice in Gallipoli, and twice in France, and he was discharged back to Australia in 1917. He was a TPI ever since, since then. And Mick, Mick joined up later, and they were both home on leave at my mother's ... our place, in 1917, both of them.

Mick, he was in the 33rd Battalion which was a country NSW battalion. And Barney was in the regiment of the 3rd Battalion. And Mick didn't want to go back because he said he had a feeling that he wouldn't survive, and he was killed on Easter Sunday, 1918, at a place called Agincourt. But that was the only thing that I can remember anything

about except Omah being a garrison town. And my dear grandmother, Mick, Mick being killed, he was next of kin, and she got the Australian war pension. And I can always remember on pension days, she used to always get a bag of lollies for us. But that was the ... and that was the only mention of the World War I. Uncle Barney, he never ... occasionally if you spoke to him about it,

and he still had a wound in his thigh, till the day he died, that had to be dressed every three or four weeks. And he ... you know, when I enlisted, he said, "Ah well" he said, "You know, you just have to do the best you can", he said. But he never discussed it. You'd have to sort of drag it out of him, anything about Gallipoli,

or France.

Oh, everywhere, everywhere. I was talking to Paul Cullen, Paul, he's 94 now, and he was out riding his horse the day before Anzac Day, he's got a property down at Araluen. Marvelous man. He was CO of the 2nd/1st battalion.

And he's now one of the, he and Fred Chilton, Sir Frederick Chilton, they are two of the oldest of our division that are still alive. Sir Frederick didn't turn up on Anzac Day, he's not very well. But I spoke to Sir Thomas Daly. Sir Thomas was the chief of the General Staff for five years, I think. And he was a battalion commander in the landing at Balikpapan. Very, very good soldier, and

he's ninety-two, ninety-two this week, I think, and still switched on. Very, very smart man.

Yeah well, l my uncle as I said, you had to drag everything out of him, no he didn't want to discuss it, you know, about Gallipoli and France.

And several others, another ... who gave my wife away on our wedding day, Bill Davis, Bill rose from private to commanding the battalion. And the only thing that Bill ever spoke about was the time he was gassed in 1918. He said, that was the worst part. And he died when he was about seventy-three, seventy-four, and that was

from the result of that. His breathing actually never recovered. A lot of them ... it's very hard to ... you've sort of got to ask them and question them, and you sort of feel a little bit embarrassed about doing it. But Bill was an outstanding man and I still keep in touch with his son, as a matter of fact, who's a little bit older than me. But the the effect of the

World War I here in Australia and everywhere was terrible. There was an article on T.V. last night ... the anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic. Seventy-seven thousand people died in that, forty odd thousand English and Irish, and what have you, and thirty-seven

thousand Germans. When you think of that and most of those Germans that were killed were the submariners, the U-boat blokes. That was on last night, it was very interesting.

The World War II, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It'll pick up, yeah.

First job after leaving school was in England, in what was known then as Imperial Chemical Industries, and that was eight and sixpence a week for a five day week, and if you got Saturday work it was an extra three shillings. Then I left to come to Australia.

Making tubes ... and war was, you know, imminent, and they were producing ... all-sized tubes for various naval ships, and all that sort of thing.

Copper, copper and brass mostly. That was an interesting time, it wasn't a job that I would have stayed in any length of time, but it was interesting, it was interesting.

Well my brother Pat, who had taken over the butchering business in Canberra in 1935, and was in business for fifty six years in that same place. And he decided that there was enough business for him to bring another one of us over. And I was always the one that put my hand up first, so here I am. Canberra in those days

had a population of seven and a half thousand people, you knew everybody had a motor car, and you knew all the policemen, and you knew the whole lot. You knew everybody.

It was actually. And when I went back, if you enlisted in Canberra, you had first go at any of the jobs that were going. Property ... I drew a house ... do you know Canberra at all? Do you know the Rex Hotel as you drive in?

I drew a block of land opposite that ... and you never own land in Canberra, it's all leasehold. And I didn't even pay the five pound twelve for the takeup of it ... no, I'm off. Canberra was not for me.

After being around the world, and here, there and everywhere. It was too parochial too ... too small. I go back there occasionally, and have a look. I think it's one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

It's laid out beautifully and my brother had a big family, there was eight of them. Three of four of them are still there, and couple of others scattered around the world. But Canberra was not for me.

Well, it was a shock because, it said, you know, it was small, and the only source of life was the picture show or the pub, and I didn't drink in those days, I didn't drink until

I was twenty-two, twenty-three. Well you know, it was quite ... tough and hard ... it was boring, shall we say. There was a dance once a week at the Albert Hall which wouldn't happen now of course, which we all used to go to. Entertainment was very, very limited. But entertainment in those days ... it's different to what it is now. People didn't expect what they expect now.

I mean, if people haven't got a T.V. program in their hand, they're in trouble ...

Ah yes, yes. And Rugby League was pretty strong, and Rugby Union, and Soccer, and the various sports. But as for entertaining, for entertainment, it was only the Friday night dance at the Albert Hall. The three pubs ...

you know, they were well patronized, and the two picture shows. But that was all, there was nothing else.

Oh yes, yes, you know, as naturally you would in those times, yes. But nothing said ... when I went away, there was nobody to ... I didn't have to write to anybody because, when you're eighteen and running around, ... different, probably different now. Didn't deem it necessary, shall we say. You know, the girls

that you dance with and everything, and the girl ..... there were the various accommodations for the girls, like Gorman House was one which was ... girls only, public servants. The Hotel Acton which was ... men and women. But you see, a lot of people went to Canberra for employment, because the employment was there for say,

girls with stenography and typing skills, and the young blokes, I mean for anybody wanted to go in the public service that was the place. It wasn't easy to get in, it was hard to get in, you had to have the leaving and you had to pass various exams.

Well, I thought it was a marvellous country, because my uncle had a little small hotel which was in the grounds of the RPA [Royal Prince Alfred] Hospital. The old girl that owned it, she wouldn’t sell it and they built part of the hospital around it.

They had to wait for her estate to be wound up and everything. He had that for 25 years. In 1940 they decided to retire for 6 weeks and moved into a nice unit at Petersham which in those days was exorbitant rent – 2 pound 10s a week – but the old fellow who owned it, when he died he left it to Legacy and Legacy own it now, its opposite the Petersham

RSL [Returned and Services League] and I thought it was because one of their clients at the hotel was one of the leading trotting drivers in Sydney and he arrived at the wharf to pick me up in a big purple Buick, which in those days, was the motor car. I thought what a great country this is and I knew Harry for years until he died. But I thought Australia was a

marvellous country and the whole freedom of it and everything. People had been through a tough time, a very hard time and it was like light at the end of the tunnel. I was greatly impressed with… didn’t particularly like Canberra… but every 4 or 5 weeks we would go to Sydney and that sort of thing. Sydney in

those days was a wonderful city, still is and always will be. Generally, I thought who would want to live anywhere else and I say that today. I’ve been away 8 or 10 times and I always come back and said what a wonderful town.

Well, I’ve been back 3

times. You get back, you have your discussion with all your cousins and what have you and after a week you’re looking to leave because you’ve come to this different type of life, their life. It’s still nice and pleasant mind you and they are all very well off and everything, but you’ve lost the whole trend of the way they

live. That’s just it and I’ve always said that and I say it to my 2 grandsons, one’s 19 and one’s 16. I said when you go away, you’ll come back and say what did I go away for; and I say that today. When I was driving, we have driven to Cairns 3 times, all around, but not to the West but there’s so much to see

in our own country. Unfortunately it has been spoilt by various ways, but it will survive.

It was a Sunday evening and we were sitting – we had a big flat above the shop in Civic Centre. You know Civic Centre, with all the colonnades and everything – its still there, it will be there forever.

And Bob Menzies [Prime Minister Australia] came on and he told us that from now we were at war with Germany. England had declared war and that was on the 3rd September, 1939. And then of course everything leaped on from there. We had the meat contract for Duntroon Military College – we had that before the war. Then it enlarged of course, Pat’s business

enlarged. Then we started various Air Force Training Schemes. We had the contract for that. We had the contract for the RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force] station at Canberra. So it was a very very busy time. A lot of hard work. 12 hours a day mostly. But that’s where I was on a Sunday night the 3rd September when I heard Bob Menzies say war has been declared.

Not really, no. I had just turned 17 and then in January, 1940 we had 8 employees in the business and 3 of them were of military age. So they brought in what they called

UT’s, Universal Trainees. You went into camp for 3 months and then you were on the reserve and 3 of our fellows went in and half a dozen people that I knew. We all seemed to enjoy it. Then later on if they didn’t enlist in various things they were called up in the general call-up in

December 1941. In that area of the 3rd Battalion, that came from the Canberra, Goulburn, Moss Vale area. They were one of the first into the Owen Stanleys. Colonel Paul, Colonel Dick Paul. He was a man from the First World War. Poor old Dick, he was in his late 50s and he only lasted 3 or 4 weeks and then a fellow called Cameron took over. The

3rd Battalion did a very very good job. I knew quite a few of them in it. Quite a few of the young fellows became officers in it. Then after the Owen Stanleys it was disbanded and they were sent to the various units.

A friend of mine, George O’Sullivan, who’s dead and gone now. George was a barman at the pub and

he said “I’m going to join up.” And I said “When are we going?” I’d just turned 18. I put my age up to 21 because you had to be, otherwise you had to get somebody to sign it you see, and I wasn’t going to embarrass my brother by asking him to sign it. I signed it myself. So we enlisted on 3rd May 1941. Then George and I got split up in the Middle East.

He went off into the Owen Stanleys and survived. He was 2/1st Battalion and I was just about ready to go to the landing at Balikpapan when I got a letter from him, he’d been badly wounded at Wewak. We came back and George had got a bullet through the shoulder, one through his thigh and he went back. He was

at Parliament House. He got a job there. He finished up the Head Usher in the Senate. When I used to go to Canberra if I wanted to go to Parliament House in the [(UNCLEAR)] Department. George died last year.

Well, he knew how old I was and I thought why put it on him. I can put my age up 3 years.

I’m big enough and strong enough to do it. That was the only reason. He would have signed it I would say.

I didn’t even ask him. I just told him. I said I’m putting my age up to 21.

Oh yes, you see you weren’t allowed to go overseas until you were 20.

Oh, yes. It was an adventure. The Syrian campaign hadn’t started. The first desert campaign had finished. There was no problems.

Well, the reason actually possibly was that the rest of the country and the world were involved in the war and I wasn’t opposed to war and having two uncles in the First World War, I thought well, why not. There’s no reason behind it. I was never anti-war. Unfortunately war is a necessary thing at times

to solve the immediate problems.

Oh, possibly a little bit. Not, I was never a great royalist or anything.

Oh yes, the Empire. I thought if you want to live in a country, you should be prepared to do your bit for it. I thought Australia was a marvellous country and still do.

Australia, mostly. Australia. The Brits had their own problems with Dunkirk and that just being over.

No. None at all. Not that we knew of. We were, but we didn’t know it.

Oh yes.

But I only escaped going to Singapore to Malaysia by one morning at Tamworth, all those with previously military training, two steps forward. They were on the ship 2 days later. I think out of 14 of those 1 survived. It’s just the luck of the draw sort of thing.

Well, actually at the time there was no thoughts, cause there was only the Middle East involved. The first lot had gone to Malaysia, or Singapore, what ever you like to call it. But nobody had any thoughts of where they were going. It was just go where you were told.

Possibly yes.

But at that particular time they didn’t need anybody.

Well I’d seen a little bit of it before. With all the big Nuremberg war rallies and what have you and I remember – there was an article on it the other day I think – Britain accepted

ten thousand Jewish children. And a few of them had arrived in the Birmingham area I remember them being at a school that was close to us. Every time you turned on the radio, there was no TV in those days of course, it was the big Nuremberg rallies. Hitler spruiking and all his henchmen and everything.

Yes. He wasn’t going to stop.

I wrote to her and told her that I was possibly going to the Middle East. She said oh well, hope for the best.

I had two brothers in the services over there too. One was in the Air Sea Rescue bringing back shot down pilots. My brother Dan he was in the… I forget what he was in….

We had a preliminary examination in Canberra by a Dr Louis Nott who was a well-known character in the area. He was a doctor in the First World War, a marvellous man. When Canberra went Federal he was the first Labor Party member for the Canberra seat. When I went to Louis, he knew who I was, he said, “Charles,

good luck, I wish I was going with you.” We came down to Sydney, Moore Park. 5 days in the showground getting kitted out and that, and then to Tamworth. Tamworth in early June was starting to get very cold. It gets cold up there. All our preliminary training took place up there. rifle

drill, firing a rifle for the first time. There was about 30,000 troops in that area. Which was very difficult for the local people and we weren’t allowed in pubs or anything because the beer was semi-rationed and the publicans kept it for the locals, which was fair enough.

Tamworth wasn’t as big as it is now. Having all those troops dropped on you in a heap and there’s problems when you have groups of men. There’s always louts among them causing trouble. And the Tamworth people were absolutely marvellous, but it’s a big blow to a town, it’s good for the economy too;

we were getting 5 shillings a day and it was all spent in Tamworth.

I suppose maybe upsetting their ways in having drunks in the street and all that sort of thing, which is very difficult to avoid. The only form of transport from Manila Road Camp to Tamworth was feet.

There was a few, yes, there was a few. The camp followers were all there, they’d come around. As for entertainment, there was no, like we had later in the war – like mobile cinemas coming round – there was none of that. If you were lucky to get a seat in the pictures you did and if you didn’t you didn’t.

No. They were just local girls from around the place and that. Not that I had anything to do with them but a few of the boys had. No it was a period of, not difficult, but sort of finding your friends and finding the people that were going to be your friends for the next 4 or 5 years.

George and I enlisted together and we were all the ways through until I transferred to the artillery and he said, “No I’m staying in the infantry.” and then other people that I met there who carried on with us. Five of them were killed in the Owen Stanleys and a couple later on

and its sort of hard to sort of say actually what you’ve, what you decided then. But then word came that we were off the next day – only 24 hours notice. Train to Darling Harbour, Darling Harbour to the Queen Mary at Kirribilli, sail the next morning.

Making friends – the people you were going to remain friendly with. You see there were plenty of fellows you met but you couldn’t care if you met them the next day. In our little group that left Moore Park, there was 2 fellows in their 50s but they’d put their age back to 35.

They went right through to Palestine and that and there were other people that we were not interested in. I was made a corporal 6 weeks after I was in, which an 18 year old telling blokes of 40 what to do, you had to be careful how you handled it you see.

Yes.

At Tamworth, after I’d been there

a month there was a selection to do an NCOs [Non Commissioned Officer] became a corporal 3 weeks later. Acting corporal. They used to call us “salt water NCOs”. As soon as you got to Palestine, you reverted back to a private.

No. A Saltwater NCO.

You’re only there until you get off the ship. That was a very interesting thing. Palestine was a marvellous place.

Oh yes. I became very proficient at it actually. I finished 3rd out of 1,100 in Palestine in rifle shooting and 4th on the Bren gun.

Oh yes. In Tamworth, no, just learning how to maintain a rifle and we had two actual shoots at the rifle range.

Yes. You’re either are or you’re not.

I had a rifle before the war, shooting rabbits and that possibly contributed to my able to handle it.

Oh heavens yes. Some fellows never learnt to shoot.

No. I mean they could pull the trigger, but they could never hit anything. But I mean you couldn’t have everybody as experts.

Dismantling it and knowing how to change the barrel.

You had to change the barrel every so often because it got too hot and you’d burn it you see. Warp it and that. You had to know that. Taking it to pieces and putting it back together. You could do it blindfolded once you became perfect.

The Bren gun had a semi-circular 20 cartridges on the top and you just pulled it down and

pull the cocking lever back and you put it on single shot or automatic. Beautiful gun, beautiful. Made in Czechoslovakia.

Actually we were all waiting in Palestine after we’d finished our Infantry training. As I say, waiting to go to various

Battalions. Could be some of them in Tobruk or Syria. And then I had the opportunity to transfer to the artillery. So I transferred to the artillery and became an artillery signaller, which gave me an income of 9 and 6 pence a week instead of 6 and 6 pence. For a Group 2 you got an extra 3 shillings.

Yes.

Let’s put it this way. You were young and fit and long route marches didn’t matter as long as you had your boots worn in. Some fellows suffered badly from rubbed feet and that sort of thing, but I never had any problems like that.

As I say, you had youth on your side, which was a marvellous contributing fact.

Oh yes. Yes. The only training you could have was weapons training. Bren gun and rifle and route marching to get you fit. Formations and things like that they didn’t come till later until you joined a battalion or a regiment.

Oh you go out at 9 o’clock in the morning and back at 5 in the afternoon. Probably 15, 20 miles. On the road sometime and across peoples’ paddocks the next. Across the Peel River to the other side.

Just a rifle and a

haversack. No great heaps of clothing, because you were coming back to sleep that night.

Well, yes in lines. Every so often there was a corporal or sergeant to tell you what to do and where to go and everything.

We sailed on 3rd September

but the 29th we were going somewhere. We didn’t know where – we had an idea, the Middle East. Then on a train to Darling Harbour and then from Darling Harbour to Kirribilli.

A week prior to that we’d been given final leave. That’s what they call it, final leave,

which is 3 days and then when you got back from that I told my sister and brother that we wouldn’t be back again. Then it was supposed to be the big secret in Sydney, but how could it be a secret in Sydney with the 2 largest liners in the world sitting alongside each other – one at Chowder Bay

and the one at Kirribilli. Various boats came up with flags on, names on it, but hoping for the best. My sister and aunt and another friend, they came down to see, but you couldn’t see anything. 4,500 people looking over the rail of a ship.

Little boats around. “Is Bill Jones on board this ship?” that sort of thing.

Signs. Yes. There were quite a lot of them. At that particular time the security wasn’t as vital as it was later on. The Elizabeth sailed first and we sailed second with the Canberra picked us up outside. When we got down to the Bight, it was the roughest seas in 100 years. They were breaking over the 2 big ships. They were

actually disappearing. The Canberra lost 4 lifeboats between there and Perth. I can say I was seasick on the Queen Mary.

Well the big waves that go along – breaking up over the top of it. Those waves would have been about 40 or 50 feet high. It was one of the roughest times ever. But of course those

big ships they travelled at 27 knots during the day and 32 at night. They didn’t need an escort because there was nothing that could keep up with them. The only thing you were told was if you fall overboard….bye bye! They won’t stop for you.

Oh yes. We knew where we were going – the Middle East. We were going to Perth to pick

up a couple of thousand in Perth.

Excellent, marvellous. They had a canteen at which you could get a tin of, a mess tin full of Tooheys beer. I didn’t drink beer. I didn’t drink at all in those days. It was very good. There was a limited about of beer had been sold to them, otherwise you couldn’t put up with a shipload of drunks.

The food and everything was good. We were in a cabin. The cabin we were in was a 2-berth cabin that had been made into a 4, which was extreme luxury. They hadn’t panelled her out yet. You see later on they put panels over all the woodwork so it wouldn’t get damaged. But some of the woodwork, the picture show, all of that was still going. Magnificent.

It was a luxury trip because in those days she carried 4,500. When she was going from New York to Southampton, she was carrying 25,000.

Well yes. The Americans had to get a lot of troops across quickly and that’s the way they did it.

It was 4 days across, 1-day discharge, 1 day loading stores, back again and another 25,000.

From here to Perth, to Fremantle actually. From Fremantle to Trincomaleee northern part of what was then Colombo [now Sri Lanka] That was a refuelling station in the north, then direct from there to Suez non-stop.

19 days was the full trip. As I said they travelled at 27 during the day and 32 at night.

No. Not ashore at all. But the training routine was very very good.

Well twice around the top deck was a mile and a half. So you’d do that 2 or 3 times a day. Each unit did that so many times. It kept you fit.

No. The only bleak thing was an outbreak of mumps, which was a bit difficult.

Oh about 40 odd.

With grown ups it’s a serious complaint.

No. I had it as a child, so that’s one of the things you are immune to if you had it as a child. But it was a very pleasant trip.

Lectures mostly because it’s a bit difficult when you’ve got that amount of people. But you see the Americans, what they used to do, they kept

the kitchens going 24 hours a day and there was a continual circle of people going through the kitchens. Continual circle of people sleeping, others awake. It’s only four days you see.

On the Mary and Elizabeth. You see they possibly transported a couple of hundred thousand troops across then when America came into the war.

Oh yes. We could go to bed and get up in the morning, but when we were on American ships later in the war when we went from Townsville to Morotai, they worked the same way.

Yes. Arrival in Palestine. We got off the ship at

Port Tewfik across the canal to El Kantara then onto the trains across the Sinai to Gaza. Arrived there at 3am and into 6 man tents. It was tough and hard but comfortable. Reasonably comfortable. The food early in the piece wasn’t too bad, it

got a bit hairy later on.

No fresh meat. Bully beef, tinned bacon that sort of thing. Tinned vegetables. But we survived, we were young you see.

Food was short. There was a shortage of food around the world. The night before we left Quastina to come home,

we got a feed of the local mutton. It was a real bonus. But generally the food was good. When we got back to Australia of course that was all different.

They came in,

there was American stuff came in that we had in the landings on Borneo that you could rejuvenate sort of thing. But the old bully beef and biscuits, that was the old standby.

Anywhere. See feeding the people in New Guinea was a big problem too because there was very little grown there and

everything had to be brought up from Australia.

Well training in Palestine was night and day. Night operations because the 9th were in Tobruk and they were going out and hunting up people at night and we were trained for that sort of thing.

Going out in the dark and counting so many steps in that area, and so many in the other area and that should take you to a spot that was where they wanted you to go.

Yes. Counting out steps. Feeling your way in the dark and it was dark too. Then there was, we didn’t have any mortar training cause mortar training was only when you got to the Battalions

and Bren gun and rifle. When we got to the artillery we had training on the guns first then when we got near Beersheba, you’ve hear of Beersheba, that was the big artillery range and each gun had 5 rounds to fire and that

was your introduction to heavy weapons. Then they decided whether you were going to be a gunner or a signaller. That’s how it went. But the training in Palestine was hard and tough. The chief instructor, Sir Horace Robinson, Red Robbie, and he used to come around every other day and tell us what he was going to do and everything. He said “I’ll make soldiers out of all of you

if it’s the last thing I do.” And he did. One of the bonuses of it was an afternoon march down to Gaza beach and the sand was quite deep, hard on the legs. Swim there and then have breakfast the next morning and then march back. Great training, absolutely great training.

Well he was a real bouncy, not like a general you would expect to be, very brisk mover and a great trainer. He had the 19th Brigade, they took Bardia. He was the Brigadier in charge of that, then he was sent down to train the reinforcements.

Because evidently, prior to that a lot of the COs [Commanding Officer] said that the quality of the reinforcements they were getting were poorly trained.

I suppose his attitude and his expertise. He was a Light Horseman in the First World War. His involvement directly with people, down to sergeants and corporals.

He made a statement and he saw it was carried out.

Oh yes. He’d have sergeants and lieutenants paraded before him that weren’t doing their job – do it or else. But everybody respected him down to the lowest private.

He had. Because he was there amongst you all the time. You’d see him every other day. The car would pull up and he’d be there watching and looking and he knew what he was looking at. Yes. Red Robbie. There was a surplus of reinforcements in Palestine then and when the

6th and 7th came home a lot of those fellows were brought back with them. Along went to 9 Div – they’d just come out of Tobruk.

In Palestine.

Well in the Gaza Strip area.

Well. I don't think it's improved any. Heaps of garbage in street and everything. We weren't allowed into the place, not that anybody would want to go, but the areas were stark in that area. Nothing grew. We were at a place called

well it was Diasanede, Beit Jurja, the whole strip right up nearly up to Tel Aviv actually and it's poor, very poor country and it's country that the Light Horse took part in the big campaigns in the First World War. All through that southern area right down right down to Bathsheba.

and this time there's a big a large cemetery with about seventeen hundred at Gaza itself from the First World War and there was also two Australian General Hospitals in the area and that's you know casualties from the various campaigns they were the base hospitals that they were sent to but it it's country that I don't know why anybody wants it now but it it's

their homeland I guess and you see we this problem is not something that's new. When we used to get about once every maybe seven or eight weeks a patrol the Palestine police, which were white English people, they would call on us for a section of maybe ten people to go and if they were going to raid somewhere to for arms and things like that

and the tents that we were in were English design Indian pattern that was the name E-P-I-P and there were six people in the tent. A ridge pole up the centre which at night your rifle was put there and a chain through the trigger guards and they were locked up and the senior man in the tent had the key and the bolts for the rifles

were locked up in the safe in the Quartermaster's store because they were known to come in, lift the pole up, steal the rifles and go and nobody would know because you know a rifle was gold to them, absolute gold. Both sides, Arabs and Jews.

No, no, no but it had it had happened previously and then they tightened everything up so that

they couldn't they couldn't do it.

Very you had very little to do with them. The kids the kids used to come 'round when you'd go and empty your scraps and that and pick you know grab the scraps that you'd thrown out and thing and I mean they were doing it pretty tough, the Arabs the Arab kids.

Well I suppose you could if you when you had five pounds saved up in your pay book

you could go on leave to Haifa, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem but you had to have five pound in your book and that I was I was I had two lots of leave to Tel Aviv and Tel Aviv, you know where the bomb went off the other day on the seafront, well there you know what they call at the seafront you know it's just a the all the restaurants and everything there, the road there and then the wall and the sea. Nothing that you think it nothing like Manly.

Well there wasn't much to do those that wanted to visit the brothels could. There was no restrictions there and mostly just getting a bit good food and what entertainment there was, which was very very little. I mean all the wealthy Jews they had it all tied up and but it beautiful city in Jerusalem. Jerusalem's a beautiful city.

I mean you could go to Jerusalem for a month and you wouldn't see everything. I was there when '42, '42 yes and that was the that was the coldest winter in Europe for a thousand years I think. There was even snow in Jerusalem that year and it snowed in Jerusalem this Christmas too so that's how long ago that's how the time in between.

Oh yes. You visited all the places the Holy Sepulchre and Mount of Olives, Way of the Cross. Very interesting actually. There was no problems in those days. Everybody you know welcomed you because you were spending money. Oh no, there was no problem there.

Oh

good and plenty because they had a quite a cattle industry there then and you know and it was reasonably cheap and that sort of thing.

I mean you couldn't go to the expensive places but there were places for the for the servicemen that served a good meal and plenty of it.

Well then there's bacon and eggs was the eggs were the were the big thing and

if it was a non-Jewish one well you could get bacon and eggs or you know the spaghetti and that sort of thing but it was for the price it was I suppose as good as any.

Ah yes. They used to come around to the we had a picture show on and big open air

picture shows and each and each training area and a and a big hall and the Palestine Symphony they used to come once a month. The best you know all the ones that had been kicked out of Europe and that. Couldn't remember their names now of course but those of us that had a little bit of feeling for classical music it was very very enjoyable I can assure you.

Oh yes. There were no amateurs in it. They were all professionals that had been kicked out of Europe and what have you.

It was. As I say I don't remember their names now or anything but they would have been the top boys at the time.

Well as a signaller an artillery signaller is primarily the job is you're when you're in any action at all you're up with the forward infantry company because you're their eyes, what they're going to attack maybe that night or next morning or something and it's hard work because

when you leave the gun position you put the end of a wire there and then you've got ten or twelve wheels of wire that you've got to carry and they're pretty heavy and as the infantry move forward you go with them and there's an officer and his assistant and about ten sigs in what they call each OP party, Observation Post party, and

when they run into any resistance you dive in a hole the same as everybody else and hope for the best but sometimes if it's a if you're the the sig that's out in the open the enemy'll try to knock you off because they know that you're the … communications back to the guns.

Oh no no no. You're with you're with the officer, the troop

commander and his assistant and there'd be seven or eight other sigs. Ten maybe. It all depends how much line you were laying out.

Oh yes with the forward company. You're right up there.

Anything that happens well you've got to be there because you're their eyes for anything that you've got to tell back to the guns to where to fire it.

Yes.

Oh well when I went to the artillery then we were trained on we didn't they didn't have twenty five pounders then on the artillery training regiments. They had a gun from the First World War. A gun called the four 4.5 Howitzer which was a very very very practical gun

and

Oh weigh about two ton, short barrel because the short barrel Howitzer means that the when the gun's fired it goes up and then down you see, that's a Howitzer, and we had a shoot at Asaloots [?] which is out from Bathsheba in southern Palestine now that's

where they grow practically all the fruit and vegetables for the European community and we trained on that there and we each gun was allowed five rounds and that was it, that's the only training I had on them but that was then of course as we when we joined the regiment we were equipped with the latest twenty-five pounders which is a marvellous gun.

Even saw one some of them used in the Iraqi war. Still going.

Yeah yeah no yeah well the you've seen them from the various parks around the place? Have a look next time. There's one at Manly. There's they're all over Australia.

The they just neutralise them and they're all stuck in the parks now.

Well it was very mobile.

Easy to handle. It's there were a gun crew of six. A sergeant, a bombardier and four others, and very dismountable, could be dropped hooked up and away in a matter of minutes whereas the First World War stuff was a bit well it they had iron wheels and all that sort of thing but the twenty-five pounder gun How gun Howitzer was one of the real and

things in the war. Every regiment in the British army and all the Canadians, Australians and that, that's what they had.

Well you either had charge one, two or three depending on what range you had from and that was from 9,000 to 13,000.

The shell went in first and then the whichever charge you were using, whichever range. That went in next, close the breech and the gun layer he's the fellow that sits on the seat, he's the bloke all the degrees and everything where it's gonna go and then fires. Very noisy. That's why now all of us artillery blokes we all get a pension for being deaf. That that's true.

Every every anybody that served in artillery

regiment automatic ten percent pension for deafness.

Oh if you apply for it.

Well no. Never. I was never a gunner. I was a signaller.

I was either back from the guns, listen to the stuff coming from up there or up there and I most

of my time was spent up there with the infantry.

Well you had to learn Morse Code before you got your three shillings a day extra and you had to be proficient in that and knowing how to operate the a couple of wireless sets we hard we had which were not they were when you think of mobile phones these days they were useless well they were useless in the in the jungle

because they once you got a canopy overhead you couldn't hear anything but in weapons training too you didn't when you were carrying the wire you also had to carry your rifle so that was part of that but there was no special training except and that and keeping fit.

A roll the rolls that we carry were if I can remember five hundred yards on each roll. This is the stretch stretching my memory and now and a hundredweight in weight.

A hundredweight. You have to you you'll have to

convert that to kilos.

A hundredweight.

Yeah eight stone [(UNCLEAR)] a hundredweight I think it was. It was not easy to carry and you had a bar through it and you one on each side but and but then when you ran out of that one you just dropped the bar out of it and joined it up to the next one and away you went with the next the longer you further you

went the less the load became.

Well no no not if there was not if the enemy were in front of you, and fighting.

Oh yes

Later on it was all retrievable. It was all retrievable. I remember once at Milne Bay a friend of mine he's a doctor, well he's a retired doctor now.

He was bringing it back and the Japs had cut it and pulled it in to the scrub on the side of the track hoping that our blokes would go after it so they would have killed them then, you see but we killed them first.

No there was there was there was only two

two sets that were available to infantry or artillery and they had a range possibly of half a mile and if there was any canopy up top it just blacked it out and you see the you know the modern with the satellites and everything how simple it is now.

Trees right.

Scrub and that.

Mm.

No the wireless connections were very very

very very poor. It was mostly relied on voice over the telephone, and signal wire.

Oh I suppose to be proficient about three or four weeks. I still remember it. Wouldn't be wouldn't be as quick now but

Leave no well we when the Jap … the Japanese came in the war on the 7th of December. We were due to go to Syria on the 14th of December. Then when the Japanese came in everything changed and 7th Division which was I was part of they were withdrawn from

from Syria down to Palestine, to Jericho actually, and that's where I joined the regiment. Just after Christmas 1941 and then the 6th division were the same. They came down and 9 Div, [9th Division] who had who had been in Tobruk, they went up to Syria 'cause Syria still had to still be protected because the threat from Iraq. You see Iraq was pro-German

and the British occupied it and Iraq and Iran that threat was still there because it was the Germans might have come down through Turkey you see and then from there on our way home. We didn't know where we were going when we when we were coming down. We got to Ismailia and El Kantara and across once we knew we were going south.

We knew that the we weren't going to the desert and the big POW [Prisoner of War] camps were on both sides. There was about eighty thousand Italians and about oh I suppose maybe out three or four thousand Germans and the Germans were all standing up saying "Oh Rommel's got you blokes. You're all running away." 'Cause we were coming down on the train and the old Italians

they didn't say anything. They were just glad to be out of the war see. That's another thing too that when we got to the Middle East the first camp we went into for and up to Palestine, all the staff, cooks and the cleaners and everything were all Italian POWs 'cause they'd surrendered twelve months previously. They were glad to be out of the war.

Oh yes they were all right.

You know. They were they were glad to be out of the war. They didn't want to be in it in the first place.

Oh very well, very well. They sent a lot of them a lot of them came here actually and a lot of them worked on properties here and a lot of them came back but you see they didn't when the first Syr … Syrian Lib … Libyan campaign they were just happy to surrender. They didn't want to fight.

Yes.

Yeah they were as we were going down the canal to you get on the ship at Suez the Germans were the Italians were on the left and the Germans on the right and the Germans were up all like "Heil Hitler" and "Rommel's got you blokes on the run" and all that. Good speaking English.

It was interesting actually. Bit of a laugh.

No. No. No, no. No.

It was frustrating. It was frustrating, it was frustrating but the training that we got has served us well later on. Served us very well later on. We were the best

tra … when we got to New Guinea and that. What we learnt there stood by us for the next four or five years.

Mhm.

The New Amsterdam first of all to Bombay and then Bombay on the Nevarsa [Nevada?] which was a ship that had been a British troop ship in the First World War.

Had been sunk by German submarines in just south of Suez. They got her up and she was a dreadful ship, a coal burner and you ate where you slept, hammocks it was, and convoys like that the convoy speed

is geared to the slowest ship 'cause you can't leave the slower one behind and at that particular time the [HMAS] Sydney had just been sunk and you know we were stuck out in the middle of the Indian Ocean wallowing around, but we got home alright.

Yes. Yes.

Just had a look around that but there was no food. The Indians were short of food and the there was no you

couldn't get a meal or anything. I'd been to Bombay before and you sort of you know it was not a not a place that you'd want to go to.

Too many Indians. Too many Indians. Too many people. Too many people.

Oh yes the Indians were alri … well not really, not really. We there was a big soiree on in the Bombay Town Hall and we went in

to have a look and they got up on the stage oh there would have been about a thousand Chi Chi’s and full Indians and they said that "Until the Australians leave there'll be no more music played."

Oh yes I was there actually.

No the I think it was the Bombay Town Hall.

An enormous big place.

Yes they were dancing and everything you see and we want to go and have a look and

Well I suppose they thought we were inferior.

No no, no. No. No. Oh no.

Oh they did yes. They did they did they did and there were you know there's you know lads in every in every organisation.

Oh yes we all left. We just thought "So what?" We were sailing the next morning so it didn't matter.

No. No. No.

Yes went to Colombo.

We were there for we were there for five days just sitting there.

We weren't allowed ashore because Colombo, it's a beautiful city I've been there three or four times since. You can't sort of release twenty or thirty thousand people there because of you know it's not they're not geared for it. They're not geared for it and then as I said we sailed for Java and fortunately twenty four hours later we turned around and came back

after dropping off the 2nd Pioneers, the 2/3rd Machine Gunners and 2/6th Field Company. Some of them didn't even have rifles. They were taken prisoner a fortnight later.

And there was no good dumping us there because we had nothing. We never even had a rifle.

No oh no we

We came we came to Adelaide pardon me,

Adelaide and then from Adelaide to Tenterfield. Three weeks in Tenterfield and then to Kilcoy the Brisbane line, which the whole 7 Division was the only thing between Brisbane and the Japanese and beautiful area that Brisbane Valley. I've been back there a few times. It's all nice and green and then from there to Milne Bay.

We arrived three days before the Japanese landing and on from there to here.

Well we arrived they landed on the 24th, 24th, 25 of August 1942.

We'd arrived three days previously and it's an incessant rain there. We'd get about four inches of rain every afternoon and we you know there was a bit of chaos nobody knew what was doing and then we heard that there was a Japanese landing under underway and 2/10th Battalion was and 61st Militia Battalion were the two ones that were in the area that they landed in and

the first couple of nights were very very very disorganised. We had we lost two officers at in the landing and then

Well when the they were at a place called Cavia [?] Mission and the 2/10th Battalion which was one of our battalions from South Australia had been in Tobruk for eleven months.

There was no communication and it was dark. Nobody knew where anybody was and the first Japanese came through and split up from where our officers were and battalion headquarters and Athol Bird was killed and then Brian Gilhooley a couple of minutes later and the party who was with them, that's their assistants and their signallers, they they

bolted then and into the water and walked got a mile and a half into the sea and along they got back that way including two of them who were badly wounded and they they're still alive today one of them, and then after that it was our turn then and we just kept pushing 'em back, pushing 'em back 'til they evacuated ten days later. It was it wasn't a long campaign but it was very hard and very tough and the conditions were atrocious

absolutely atrocious.

Eleven days. We were the first to turn the Japanese anywhere in the world.

Well there

Well there the first the first action was that I was involved in was on the fourth night.

The Japanese attacked Number 3 air strip and we were on the other side and next morning counted ninety-odd dead I think and they they'd dragged about fifty or sixty away and then from then on it was a matter of day by day pushing them back five or six hundred yards, forming a perimeter, belting hell out of them that night and then next morning

moving on again move along until they got to just past Cavia [?] Mission where the original landing came in and the Japs made a very very heavy stand there. John French got the VC that night and another bloke should have too, a fellow called Merv Ball, and then it just petered out after that. We just

rounded up the stragglers and they withdrew. I think they got about six or seven hundred away but by then we had air superiority and everything and there was you know no problems but if they had have taken Milne Bay, Moresby would have fallen shortly after.

Yep.

Now well

I saw next morning and there wasn't a mark on him. He'd been I think blown up by a grenade or something but there was no bullet wounds on him and he looked quite peaceful as a matter of fact. We moved on then and his some of the 2/9th Battalion buried him there. I've been back to his place where he won his VC. I'll show you the picture of it after.

He was a barber from a little place called Crows Nest in Queensland. Just an ordinary bloke like the rest of us but that was short, it was only eleven days the whole campaign, and the Australians lost three hundred and eighty killed and wounded about two hundred-odd.

Well there was a bit of a hold up we were oh we were back about six hundred yards or so. There was a bit of a hold up and he decided to take 'em on his own and he wiped out about a couple of machine gun nests but he did there was no bullet wound. He must have just got he must have got I think it was a grenade that exploded near killed him but

that that was the about three days later they withdrew but they've got a nice memorial to him at Ca … just past Cavia [?] Mission.

Our blokes yes.

Yes. Yep.

No no, no. I was I was back on the at the gun position and I heard the message come through that Bird and Gilhooley had been killed. Then we sort of lost all communication because there was no phones, there was no lines or anything you see.

Oh well

I mean they were both very very popular blokes. Johnny Firth you'll see tomorrow he's… Johnny was a personal friend of theirs. Johnny he was the 2IC [second in command] of A troop and he and the troop commander are the only two ones left alive of the whole battery, Norm Pinkler and him. You'll like John he's a very nice good bloke.

Oh yes.

It was my first time yes. It doesn't it doesn't really it doesn't it's I suppose you think there "Lucky it's not me" but there's no good dwelling on it. There's no good you know there's you're frightened don't anybody that says they're not frightened they're loonies but no it's not something you like

but it's not you can't dwell on it.

Don't realise it 'til it's all over. You know. You don't realise 'til it's all over. It's everything happens so quickly. You hear whiz things whizzing past and that you don't even know what they are but fortunately

see the Japanese had no artillery. They didn't land any but they did bring in three nights in a row two cruisers to belt hell out of us. You know they put the lights on the on the Manunda, the hospital ship. Told her to move out of the way 'cause they were going to sink the ship behind. I'll show you a photograph of the ship that sunk and he sunk the ship behind and let the

Manunda carry on.

No not at that particular time but two nights later when we were pushing them back after the attack on the air strip, I was stayed behind because all my feet swoll …

had swollen up and Ross Frang, that was the captain, he said "McGirr." he said "You stay here." he said "And come up the next morning." and the place he left me was at a place called the Gama River and little did we know that in the bush when we went through that day was three hundred Japs. They must have seen us going through and they attacked us there that night and it was just

on dusk and they started coming across the track and I can remember hitting one you know with a couple of shots and that we counted about oh seventy-odd dead the next morning and including the boss, the captain, the lieutenant commander he was dead and I was thinking when I saw him the next morning. He had all these medals and sword and everything and I was going to go out and get them and I thought "No, there might be a sniper around." and there was and they killed

the blokes that went out to get them. Yeah he was I can't I can't think of his name. His name's in the in the war history but no that was the first time that I had actually defended myself and well you know it was just a bit of chaos and out of the people that were at the Gama River there's only three of us left out of about two hundred-odd. All the rest are gone

That night?

That night we had about I think twenty seven killed and about thirty-odd wounded. There was nearly half and half but it was you know it was one of those not organised things. We didn't know they were behind us and they didn't know that we were on this side of the river when they went to go through.

That was the heaviest yes, that one was because next morning when I

got up to the rest of the troop I said Frank said "What happened back there?" he said. I said "Well sir" I said " There was they were on the other side of the track" I said "They must have watched us come through" and then we buried Athol Bird and Brian Gilhooley. They'd been killed three nights previously. Not a very nice sight then after you know the heat and that

but it's something you've got to do.

No no. Things like that you see what you do is, you take one of the identity disc off, leave them one on and then the war graves come along maybe a month later and dig them up and put them in a proper cemetery. Not a very nice job but that's part of their business.

Oh you could probably say a Hail Mary or a something but Brian Gilhooley was an old Joey’s [St Joseph’s College] boy but oh no it's I mean it's your own personal feeling. You have the we you know there's plenty

of professionals the various ministers, padres. We had they had two of them up there with the forward companies. A Catholic and a whatever the other one is, Anglican or Presbyterian or what.

Right

Good.

That was the Sat … the night after the Japanese attacked Number 3 strip and when we crossed the strip the next morning there was still sporadic fire coming from various places and amongst the dead were people who weren't dead ready to kill us. They killed

one fellow and of course they were dispatched pretty quickly.

Pretending in amongst the bodies and...Oh my glasses off, yes. Righto. Go back to the start?

Yeah well the next morning the night after the action at Number 3 strip

when we crossed the next morning there were there were in amongst the dead Japanese some who were partially wounded, three of four of them, and they killed oh I can't think of his name now, a lieutenant of the 2/12th, and they were hastily dispatched of course but as we pressed on during that next morning there was sporadic fire from everywhere around the place you know but they were still they were retreating but they

were still wanted to take their toll so when we got to the second river, which is the Gama River, which is about a three quarters of a mile this side of Cavia [?] Mission, there was headquarter company of 2/12th B company and a company of the 25th Militia Battalion

and what the idea was that we were going to consolidate that there that night but just on dusk we didn't know that there was two to three hundred Japanese, pardon me, in the in the bush on the left hand side of the track and just on dusk when we were just settling in and getting our holes dug they attacked, in force, and

I was with a fellow called oh I can't think of his name. McLean, “Abo” McLean they used to call him because he was a bit dark, from the 2/12th, he came from Hobart. I was in a hole with him and next thing we saw these Japanese coming across the track and we the order was given to “stand to”. Well stand to means look after yourself and I can remember shooting at this bloke and hitting him but he kept

on coming right over the top of us and he was dead behind us the next morning and that was my first time actually where I'd sort of engaged an enemy physically close to and that went on all night. They were com … coming through our lines and next morning we counted about oh I think about seventy or seventy-odd dead

and I think the battalion lost about fourteen because one party had been across the creek getting water and they were sort of isolated there and they were copping fire from us and the Japanese because they were just in that in that particular firing line and that went on all night and we had the happiness of knowing that we knocked off the lieutenant commander

that was see all the Japanese troops at Milne Bay were Marines. There were no soldiers. They were all Marines. Highly trained, some of them six foot, five foot ten, no little bandy legged fellas with glasses and that the lieutenant commander, who was the CO of that particular unit, he was amongst the dead and that was my first

actual incident of actually firing at the enemy and them firing directly at me and that that saved that little skirmish that night shortened that campaign by three or four days.

It was terrifying but you didn't have time to think you just sort of hoped for yourself and you could hear them screaming out you know "Me friend."

Oh yeah "Me friend, me friend" you know. “Bang” you you're my friend alright.

Yeah "Me friend" yes. The ones that you know had limited you know limited English language but that little skirmish that night Major Gate … Captain [Richard] Gategood said to me about a week later, I saw him at before they went around to Buna, he said "That cut the that saved the

the action by cut the action." he said "By about three days." because he said "They would have behind us all the way and we would have been in the middle." he said and that was it but that was my first time of actual contact with the enemy

And it it's frightening but you only think about it when you're alive the next day.

Well we said "It's been and done and gone. We won’t you know it's no good you can't live in the past like that particularly in that sort of thing otherwise you go loony.

No none at all. None at all. None whatsoever. I mean it's

kill or be killed. That's what it amounts to.

Yep.

No. No not really no not not on any of the lines of that. I mean they were there

available to you. They were terrific blokes. Roy Wood and I keep in touch with him now. He had his ninety first birthday last week.

No no. You never thought of that.

No. No. That never came into that never entered into anything like that, no.

No it was that afternoon the afternoon that happened they'd cut the line and took pulled both ends into the scrub you see.

Well no no I actually wasn't there but

The story was like from the other sigs with me with us the actually sig Brian Nolan well he was thought he said "No don't go in there." he said 'cause the pull the ends into the scrub and they were sitting on the other end waiting to kill whoever came in you see so the infantry sent a patrol 'round the back of them

and killed them but that's oh yes they were the cutting the lines was 'cause they where they were knew. The Japanese were very well trained. See these fellas had been in China and you knew they knew all the short cuts and everything. They were very well trained.

Excellent. Excellent. You know they did terrible things to our fellows in Malaya in Singapore and Malaysia but

they were you know like when you were confronting them they just they were battling to survive just like you were but the aftermath of things when you seen that we'd the next day we found three fellas from the 61st Battalion who had been caught and butchered and tied up and cut up and everything. Tied to a tree but that that was their

that was their failing they couldn't they couldn't help themselves with that.

Well I was only one of twenty or thirty that saw them you know. They were just you know they the tree was there just past the track and these fellows were tied up to it and bayoneted and cut up and that sort of thing. They'd been taken prisoner oh maybe

four or five days previously. See that's what they used to do instead of letting them go they just used to kill them.

‘Tis. It's something that sort of sticks in your memory but as a fighting man there there was noth … the Jap was as brave as anybody. I mean it's it was the old saying on his side 'kill or be killed.'

Oh it's when you think of it after and you said "There but for the grace of God go I" so it's not very nice to see but it's one of the hazards of that type of, any type of jungle warfare they're different to open warfare where you can take prisoners and send them back to a camp somewhere but no it's jungle warfare

that was nothing like that and the jungle now is when I was up there seven years it's still as thick as it was then, it is now.

I don't think so you see. The Jap we our whole campaign at Milne Bay we only got prisoner. One. Only one. Oh there was another fella

too. He was a pilot who'd been shot down and the natives brought him in but this one I don't know what happened how he got it but he was he was taken prisoner and the last time I saw him he was on the deck of the [HMAS] Arunta going back to Townsville but they their policy was no surrender and they'd you know they'd they that was their way of their way of thinking. The way they were taught.

Well that's the only one I we I didn't I just saw him when they brought him in and you know they just they got rid of him as quick as they could back to Australia.

Yes.

Oh yes I was gonna that that commander he had his sword and the Japanese swords were worth a lot of money and all his medals and everything on. I thought "No" he was only from here to the wall away from me but you know bushes and that in between but oh no,

and I think I forget who got the stuff out of and Captain Gategood said "Anybody who goes out there" he said "They're at their own risk." It was just coming on daylight but that was a brief quick action and as they say as they said it cut three days off the whole campaign.

No, no no no. You didn't have time oh you'd you if you got a flag off them and things like that. Every Japanese soldier had his flag wrapped 'round him but there were there were minor things. There was nothing of value amongst them. Like us, you didn't carry any jewels or money or anything and their arms were you know about as limited as ours. There was a rifle and bayonet. They didn't have submachine guns as we know it. They didn't have the

submachine gun or the Owen gun later. Their basic weapon was the heavy machine gun and the rifle.

Oh yes that was yes you see and also I didn't see it but there was talks of them cutting pieces off bodies at Buna and Sanananda and they've actually found them you know eating them. You know, cannibalism. I suppose when you were hungry you'd have to wouldn't you?

Well as I say four inches of rain every day. It was the highest concentration of the malaria parasite mosquito in the world. I believe still is too

and you were wet all the time and if you were one thing you had to do make sure you had to change your socks every two or three days because if you didn't the skin would come all the skin would come off your feet and you know you as for changing your clothes well that was impossible 'cause you were wet all the time and everything. It was I say but then again you had youth

on your side. You had youth on your side but there were times in that campaign where we had laughs too. Back from where the action was taking place there was a rumour went through that the Japs had broken through further up so the canteen and storehouse for all the whole

troops in the area was blown up so the Japs couldn't get it but it the information was all wrong but that happening we had some of our battery headquarters fellows near that, near the canteen. We didn't have to buy an ounce of tobacco for the next two years because we got the lot. Two ounce tins of caps and tobacco and they purloined

it, no questions asked, and there was even a few cases of beer that somebody got and drank that wasn't didn't interest me but that's one little aside of that campaign.

Yeah we deserved it and that that kept that kept us in tobacco until 1944. It was two ounce round tins of caps and seal. Good roll your own tobacco.

No no no. Everybody knew about it. Everybody knew about it and you ask Johnny Firth about it, he'll tell you. Everybody knew about it. It was one of the little good things in that little campaign and the other one was when the cruiser came in and he moved the Manoora away, the hospital ship, the Manunda, he sunk the ship behind

it. A ship called the Anchun which later on they drew up on her and she had all Chinese crew and of course they panicked, jumped onto the wharf and started running through. The our lines luckily they weren't killed because we they blokes who were there didn't know whether they were Japs or what. That's

that's one little aside and that that night our A troop was in the direct line of the ship and they were at the back of it and we had five wounded, you know badly wounded, because they because there were six inch shells were lobbing amongst them. Luckily nobody was killed but that's one little aside of the Milne Bay campaign and I think everybody knows about it and

it made up for some of the things that happened but as I say it was eleven days of hard yakka, hard fighting, and they fought every bit of the way the Japanese. They didn't they didn't run away or anything. They were there to do a job and they tried to do it but if Milne Bay had have fallen and that was by the good grace of I think it was old Tom Blamey [General Blamey]

that he sent the 18th Brigade, which was us, from the Middle East to there before the Japs arrived otherwise the militia battalions that were there they weren't trained. They weren't they were the young fellas you know. Some of them were older than most of us but the experienced people there saved the saved the day.

Mm.

Well it was one of the supply ships you see the Annui, no the Anchun. The China navigation they were Chinese coastal ships and she'd come in the afternoon and was being unloaded and then that night the cruiser this Japanese cruiser with the destroyer support came in and

the Manunda was loading wounded and he signalled he was the Manunda was between the cruiser and the ship he wanted to sink tied up at the wharf. He said "Move away" the whatever they signal the lamps you know. "I want to sink the ship behind you" and when she got out of the way he sunk it with three rounds and the fourth round

over carried and landed amongst our fellows and wounded five but the Chinese of course naturally they bailed they bailed out and then you know the it was you can just imagine the chaos. They're running up the road and nobody knew who they were Chinese or they were Orientals so luckily none of them were killed.

She was sunk and went I'll show you a photograph of it after. Went over on her side

and she was there 'til 1944. Then she was brought right side up and sent back to Australia and she became the Cardross. James Patrick and Company, they brought her. I'll show you a photograph of that after. I've got it there.

Mm.

Oh well you see they were my little group were known as “B troop sigs”. There was eleven of us

that's right. There's only there's only two of us left now. All the rest are gone. We were the strongest little group in that regiment. Do anything for anybody and even to this day, Harry Camplin is the treasurer of my of our association and I'm president and we've been still friends for that for sixty oh sixty three years. It is, that's how it goes.

It's a bond a bondship that's you can't describe it actually. Good good friends and watched all our families grow up and everything. Here we are.

It is and other people that you met fleetingly they disappear out of your life and you never hear of them again or you don't maybe you don't want to.

Of course we had to depend on each other to survive. Like our little group and the gun crews were the same. The six blokes on the guns, six here, everybody was in their own little group and the whole lot encompassed was very very strong and comradeship and support and everything

but that that's what holds a volunteers in there were no conscripts now you know a volunteers unit together.

Sorry go on.

Yeah yeah like I say we the I'm not saying I'm not talking down the militia battalions but a lot of them were like the 55th, 53rd. They were

eighteen year olds conscripted a fortnight ago. Two weeks later they were at Woolloomooloo on their way to New Guinea. Didn't know each other didn't know who they were and everything and they turned out marvellous. That battalion went right through it was a militia battalion, Sydney battalion, 55th, 53rd they went through, did magnificently. I still keep in touch with some of them.

Well we you didn't harp on it. You didn't you didn't dwell on it. You didn't dwell it. There were we had a couple of two or three people that after the show at when we got back to Moresby had nervous breakdowns and you know taken away in straitjackets and that

discharged and that you know but that's completely in the minority. No you just go on and hope for the best.

Oh no no, they were they were members of the members of the same troop but no no I can't mention any names of course. They're both dead now anyway now and it doesn't matter but the that was one of the things and they were you wouldn't

have you would never know what caused it. Never know what caused it.

No. No. You see you never had the concentrated thing as they say the you know in the First World War where they were locked up twenty years after the war because the breakdown came and they just couldn't resolve it because you see

they were under fire for three and four weeks or months at a time you know and every day, every day, every day up to your knees in mud and everything in France and that. I've been to Fr- I've been to all over the French battlefields and you would wonder how anybody could survive in those conditions and yet they did. Some peop- people came back and the same things. Like

the fellows who were in Tobruk. Some of them were there for eleven months, which was hell on earth. Not wet or anything but dry and dreadful and they you know they survived and came out and others fell by the wayside but I don't know I suppose it's how you sort of accept it. That's the only way I can think of it but there was no strain in the Second World War like the

the terrible times at Gallipoli or in France. When you were when you see all that beautiful French countryside you wondered. No wonder it's nice there's two and a half million people buried there.

Yes my feet.

Oh well just for no reason at all my feet my feet all became swollen

and I could you know I had to take my boots off put 'em around my neck but it was just something that happened. I went to the aid post the next day and they give me a shot of adrenalin and I was right.

I couldn't put my boots on couldn't put my boots on but twenty four hours later I was right.

No I was fortunate

that way. Out of a hundred and sixty of us eighty per cent got malaria at Milne Bay and it was a card home if you got it because there was no there wasn't the facilities there to treat you. You got five weeks a trip home on the hospital ship. Fortnight in hospital. Three weeks recreation. Back to the regiment and

as I say there was only well I never that was in 1942 I was at that I was at a school in Melbourne in 19- 1944 and I was on Spencer Street Station waiting to come home to Sydney. I had forty eight leave forty eight days leave due to me. Next thing I woke up in Heidelberg Hospital. Malaria. After all that time. So I was in there for

a for a fortnight. Back to Sydney. Then we went to outside Brisbane to a place called Petrie-Strathpine area. Malaria again. Hospital for a fortnight. Never had anything sin- since and some people it just kept recurring on them.

Well you get sick. Dreadfully sick. Terrible temperature, sweating and headaches and that and that and in those early days there was no

prophylactic to keep it away. Atebrin, which was the yellow tablet, didn't come in 'til mid '43 and you used to have to take one of those every day and that that pro kept it in check I think but the see the malaria there was none up in the mountains, none in the Owen Stanleys, because it was too high up for them but once you go down the other side seventy per cent casualties in some of the

units. From malaria and you there was no treatment. They just had to keep hoping in the swamp to survive but that was seventy per cent casualties of the infantry battalions in the Buna-Sanananda area and as I say Milne Bay out of out of the hundred and sixty-odd of us there would have been about ten of us that didn't get some form of malaria. See

there's two forms of malaria, the BT which is the normal one. MT which is the destroy it can kill you and there's a particularly virulent one I know that nothing takes anything. No nothing helps it.

Well you had to take it but you see a lot yeah there would have been one there may have been one or two. You see you when we went when we went

to New Guinea first we were in shorts Middle East dress, which they ate you alive at night. Then when the long pants come in you had to have your sleeves down and what have you and a mosquito net if you had one get under it but no nobody would nobody that had malaria would want to have it again.

Yeah short pants and khakis. No jungle

greens. Jungle greens didn't come out until January '43.

Oh yes. We were one of the best equipped armies in the world. All our stuff was tops. We had that thing foisted on us called the Tommy gun, which was an American Thompson submachine gun, but it was of doubtful

character and then when Owen invented his it was a miracle.

We had it from day one 'til day finish. Best rifle in the world. Simple, easy to clean and accurate to the extreme.

Accurate to the extreme. It was probably you know it you could it could be roughly handled and still come out all right.

It was a bit long and heavy to carry but so were the Japs' too, theirs was longer.

Oh it's about comes up to about here on your shoulder. It's a five magazine which you just push the magazine down like that that, that loads it, then there's a bolt to put the first one in. It's a

a bolt operated rifle. Not an automatic. Nothing automatic about it but as I say it's it it'll take plenty of hard work and still as good as the day I had arrived my first issue of rifle had been manufactured in 1916 'cause you see they put them all way in grease and that and you know preservative. There was

most of the issue before the Lithgow small arms factory got going they're all the 6th, 7th, and 8th and 9th Div most of their rifles were original from the First World War. So that's how good they are.

Well it was simple. It was

piece of metal that big with an open butt on it. There was no butt on it and you just put fifteen bullets in the in the in the thing I think it was fifteen. Fifteen or twenty. Fifteen, yes. Pushed it down on top, pulled the cocking handle back and away it was. You could fire one or fire the lot in a couple of seconds. It was you know it was simple.

The fellow who the fellow who invented it, Owen, he was in the army and then they discharged him and he went to BHP [Broken Hill Proprietary – mining company] and designed it and got it manufactured and he got nothing out it. He got nothing.

Oh he did, yes. It was a lovely. Dangerous if you didn't know how to dangerous if you didn't look after it and

but it was a terrific bit of machinery. Our fellas had it in the Korean War and the Americans thought it was great.

Well there was there was nothing. Oh we had a Two-Up school of course that's all. Everybody

played Two-up but the there as far as entertainment there was a very very good little concert party at Milne Bay. They used to come 'round with a piano on the back of a truck and great entertainers all from Melbourne. See the concert parties were then starting to be formed. There were groups of seven or eight people, comedians, trumpeters, piano players and that but they were marvellous and you see

we didn't we didn't get any pictures at Milne Bay because it was too wet you couldn't you know have open air shows whereas at Moresby there was the big one every Sunday twice a week you know ten or twelve thousand people there, and of course the Americans had a bit of entertaining. We saw Artie Shaw and Joey Brown, they came to Milne Bay and who else was

it? Somebody else. I just can't think remember now and they the Americans had well organised concert parties but the concert parties later on became a big thing in entertaining the troops. Very very good. Frank Coughlan, he used to be the have the orchestra at the Trocadero here in Sydney. He had one a big band, it was absolutely marvellous. 'Cause big bands in those days were the go. Not the electric guitars and all that.

Well there wasn't actually we had a bit of card playing and that sort of thing but noth- nothing much really. You just had to do the best you could.

Mm, well

Not really, no 'cause it I don't suppose the conditions were

ready for it I suppose. No we were pretty well and of course when we got to Moresby we resurrected the rugby league and soccer and that. Playing on ground like the footpath out there but you were fit and young and you got a lump of skin off. You healed up in a couple of days. Didn't matter. See we had in our regimental team we had Eric Lewis, who went to England in the '38

team, Charlie Hazelton. Charlie went to the [(UNCLEAR)] team when he was eighteen and we had a couple of other top Union players and all that. We had the best team at Moresby. We just we used to beat them one after the other but as I say Moresby was not a very good period. Dry, terrible place and we were out of our depth. We weren't doing the job we were supposed to do

but that that's war time. That's a time of boredom and a time of busyness I suppose.

Righto.

Righto.

Yes yes yeah sure.

Well it was very very important because sometimes, maybe later on, if you're not close to somebody and you get into a bit of trouble with a an engagement with the enemy, if you haven't got the confidence above you it's a bit difficult and

you rely on each other, particularly in the jobs we were in like signallers particularly, because you were unsupervised mostly and you had to rely on your particular fellow who you were with. The other fellow on the end of carrying the wire. You had to rely on him. It was very important. Very important altogether and then when you were in situations where morale was a bit low during our time at

Moresby a lot of friendships and mateship came into you know supporting everybody. We had a couple of nervous breakdowns but it was just one of those things that maybe they were you know difficult finding it difficult to cope with what was happening.

Yes for no particular

reason. We were sort of well pretty well fed. We were up at a place called Koitake which is in the foothills of the Owen Stanleys and it was that was the big rubber growing areas and they you know the conditions were good and that you know and the food was good and we had two in our troop actually, in B troop, break down during the night and the next morning taken away in a straitjacket sort of thing.

No. One fellow he'd he was a university graduate and but terrific bloke. I can't mention any names of course. He's dead and gone now but he but after he was an original of the unit too and probably after two or three years amongst the tribe out amongst the rank and file it sort of got to him. He was a terrific bloke but just had this breakdown at eight o'clock one night and

had to restrain him and the next morning they took him away in a straitjacket and the other fellow was the same. He did the same sort of thing happened for no we didn't know any reason why this particular bloke because he was you know just an ordinary educated similar education to most of us but that sort of thing that's the only way I can think of it or explain it.

Oh no these well these were you know has violent wanting to knock everybody's head off and that. Had to be restrained and that sort of thing and the second one he was pretty quiet. He just went away.

Well when the 55 Battery finished the Buna Sanananda campaign they were sent back over to Moresby

and they had a lot of sickness of course and they had about they lost about seven killed and five or six wounded and the rest of the regiment by this time we had assembled at Milne Bay after the Milne Bay campaign and the [(UNCLEAR)] wanted the quick win at Goodenough Island then they all came back there and that particular time at that time at Milne Bay the Japs were very very active in the air. They used to come over every night, twenty or thirty air craft, and

on the 23rd of April 1943 out of the out of the blue about sixty came across this particular day and you know you could see them quite clearly they and they sunk three ships and the Kittyhawk squadron they had the time of their life with them. They shot half a dozen down I think but that that was the last big sort of air attacks was in the April '43

and then it tapered off and then a week later we the whole regiment reassembled at Moresby at a place called Eddy Avenue, which was named after the Eddy Avenue here, and we were there from then 'til January '44. Not doing any particular thing because there well there was one detachment, the 2/12th Field Regiment, which was a 9th Division regiment,

were in the Finschhafen campaign and they ran were running out of sigs because of the conditions. It was very very hard country there. So they took thirty of our fellows over to Finschhafen to give them a hand. Unfortunately two of our two of our blokes were killed. It was just one of those things that happen and they were there for about six weeks and then they came back and back to the regiment and back to Australia but Moresby itself

was you know a terrible place. There was a few Japanese raids every couple of times a week but nothing that you'd worry about. You wouldn't even get in a slit trench. Wouldn't even wake you and entertainment then was reasonably good. There was the picture shows and the concert parties and you could go swimming at in the fresh water rivers there and we were then detailed

for about three weeks working on the roads, pick and shovel. It wasn't received very well and there was very little work done believe me because we resented it strongly. I mean been trained as technical people and next thing they give you a pick and shovel to work on the roads and then that that was a very bleak time in the in the history of the regiment, that eight months, and then

January '44 we come back to Australia, which was a a light at the end of the tunnel.

Well everybody was when I came back from there I was nine stone two. Everybody you know you were down to your minimum weight and that and there was no as later on in various places there was an issue of grog beer and that but that never happened at Moresby and the food was as I say reasonably good.

Well just the conditions. The country itself. See we in the early days we lost weight at Milne Bay and things like that, and the blokes at Buna and then Moresby was not a place where you'd put it on but when we got back to Australia I was ten stone in a matter of when we got up to the Atherton Tables Tablelands.

Living like kings.

Quite a bit of malaria that had been had and

it was repeating itself and a lot of ear trouble from swimming in the fresh water and a bug used to get in and bite on your ear drum and then it would bite you and die in there and then you'd have to get pluck it out. Believe me it was painful. Very painful. I had about six goes of it and in those days penicillin of course was something new and it wasn't. I think the first time they used

penicillin was on wounded people was in the Ramu Valley. That was in mid-'43 the penicillin was unknown then and like the same thing in the Middle East. Big outbreaks of dysentery which were happening in Palestine every other day because of the poor water and the only the only treatment they had then was Epsom salts and black tea

and then the miracle happened, sulpha drugs came along and if you got diarrhoea or it was mostly dysentery you had twelve of these big things that big to eat and that it cured it all right but the news were none of these they all appeared during the penicillins and sulpha drugs they appeared because the penicillin I think it was only first used in 1943.

There was none when they were up in the mountains, in the Owen Stanleys and that.

Scrub typhus. We had I think about six people that had them. They were the fellas mostly over at San- Buna Sanananda. As for around Moresby, no

because scrub typhus is the thing bites you. It gets in your skin and then if you haven't the opportunity to wash every day, which a lot of them didn't have, that was a problem you see at Moresby well you had plenty of water and everything and conditions were reasonable pardon me reasonably good but scrub typhus in the in the places in the Ramu and the Markham Valley, Finschhafen, and later on was

very very very serious. A lot of people died from it.

It was soul destroying. That's the only way I can describe it and anybody who spent that time there will tell you the same thing. Officers, NCOs, gunners, signallers, cooks, everybody was down in the dumps.

Oh well we did. You were just joined in with everybody else.

Oh well you know. Done the best you could. Played a bit of football and you well you just did the best you could.

Not really. No. We just said "Well we're here and how are you gonna get out of it?"

Nobody seemed to know. There was rumours that we were

going back to Australia next thing and next thing we were going to Lae and the landing at Lae but I mean that was an impractical thing because they already had the there the 9 Div and 7 Div the other 7 Div regiment there to take part in that action and nowadays days it was a very grim time amongst a our army career shall we say

but we survived. Came back and we got back and had average it was an average of thirty days leave. I had forty eight up my sleeve and you know get back and a bit of good food and see people that you knew and everything so we were back to square one again.

Well the Atherton Tablelands

is a beautiful place. A most beautiful part of the world. I've been back I've been back there three times since. Driven up from Sydney here and lush climate, you need a blanket every night practically. The only time in was the wet season which was in January, February and when I say a wet season, everything stopped 'cause you know the rains are very heavy. None of the camps were down on flat ground.

They were all on the sides of hills because that was the only way you could we were at a place called Curai [Coorain?], which is about eight mile from Atherton, and the two big hospitals were at Tolga and all spread around the area. 9 Div was at Herbert and 6 Div was at Decla [?] and we were down the other end but that's how many troops were up there besides the

supporting troops like Transport and Ordinance and three or four militia brigades. There was a there would have been in that area two hundred thousand people.

The hard work. The hard work. The hard things and we had an artillery range. You've heard of a place called Mooreeba? It was out the back of Rayburn. We would you know that was purely for

artillery operations and we would have a live shoot, maybe four or five hundred rounds, every month at a place called Kamalo [?] it was, and good training and we absorbed then a lot of reinforcements because the people who had

bad malaria and those things they were border B class well they could no longer ser no longer serve with the unit and we would have absorbed on the Tablelands maybe three fifty, four hundred blokes. New blokes. Reinforcements. All top people you know. Young fellows, eighteen and that, coming in and other fellows who had been with other units coming in. You see a lot of the militia units were broken up, particularly the infantry ones, and they were sent to

6 Div battalions or 7 Div battalions. They all turned out well.

Well there was plenty of route marches. Plenty of op- plenty of exercises as they call them lasting away from your sleeping bed for a week you know doing it tough and doing it training us for what was going to happen.

It was a marvellous time of our lives and the there was quite a bit of attrition through fellows who were sick and that that broke down on route you know border B class and what have you through malaria and through various things that happened to them in the in the time they were in New Guinea but no it was it was a anybody that complained about the Atherton Tablelands they weren't alive and unfortunately it was so far away

that leave except leave compassionate leave if you had a problem at home or something there was no such thing as leave because the logistics of getting them from Cairns say to Melbourne were too expensive, too costly.

Oh it was. It was. Everybody was fit you know at cricket and you know it was marvellous and the food was good

and you know the we had fresh meat everyday and we had we talk about the army cooks but all our army cooks were top people. Good cooks.

Oh yes. Well you see that area's given to it.

Well around that particular area, the whole Tablelands area, there was

similar bush conditions to some of the places in New Guinea and going there and going through that bush cutting your way through and that, not damaging any farmers' properties or anything like that, but no the conditions for training in the Atherton Tablelands for jungle warfare were outstanding and then you see 7 Div was the first airborne division. They did the land the

the landing at Nadzab. They dropped the American parachute battalion first and then our fellows went in after and the whole thing there wasn't there was about ten angry Japs with fifty or sixty miles of [(UNCLEAR)]. You know it was a big big publicity thing.

Mm.

Well you'd go out for a week with your pack you know limited things. Your one blanket and what have you and you would live under similar conditions that was going to happen when you went that had happened in New Guinea and was going to happen again when you went to Borneo or the Philippines. Borneo. Infantry moving forward, artillery sigs with them, digging in of a

night in a hole in the ground. Hoping it didn't rain and it didn't fill it up and conditions that were similar to we had at Milne Bay and the fellows went over the top at the Owen Stanleys and Finschhafen and thing it was making it make sure that everybody was fit for the next operation. As I say we were fit because the people who had suffered illnesses and that were

border B class and they were sent back to base jobs you see but it was actually the conditions was similar to what we had before and what we were going to have later.

No we there were various rumours. The rumours it was proposed that we were 7 and

9 Div were going to be part of the invasion of the Philippines but Macarthur I think decided no, he didn't want the Australians because you see there'd be a problem this way. He'd have to have a supply line for Australian equipment and a supply line for his own, which is logical thinking for a man in his position. So then they decided that 7 Div 7 and 9 Div would secure Borneo. It was 9 Div did the North

Borneo landings and we did the complete landing at Balikpapan and that was that then that was securing the Netherlands Indies oil. Make sure that we got our share of it, you see. So that that that's how that's how that worked out but there was various rumours that and when the time came the I'll show you his photograph after, Sir Ivan Dougherty was the

brigade commander, of the 21 Brigade, and they were called in and next thing we three days later we were down to Townsville on our way to Morotai.

Oh yes that was that that was in January 1944 at Moresby. The only reason that the three of us volunteered was a chance to get out of New Guinea

but what happened was after we were got our notice that we were moving on a certain day, the regiment moved two days before us so we come back all on the same ship and while they went on thirty days leave, Maurie McIvor, Nobby Lloyd and myself we went to Flinders but it was a it was a you know this year you had that terrible bushfires down there? Well that year was worse than that and

you know part of our job was two or three days fighting bushfires because the you couldn't get in or out and the Mornington Peninsula is a very very heavy bushfire area but we enjoyed it and

No we'd been there about three weeks

And it was a it was an experience and when I got when we finished we knew we didn't pass. We could have passed it, it wasn't that hard.

Well if you pass you're finished with the regiment. You went to another part of the you went to a naval bombardment group.

To get out of Port Moresby. It's as simple as that and when I got back to the regiment

Just

advancement on the type of work we'd be doing. No laying lines or anything but naval radio work and that sort of thing and getting their way of how it was going to work because what happened how it worked, the naval bombardment group, that gentleman up there in that photograph there he was he went into it and stayed there. He's dead and gone now, Lionel, and

there was a captain, an army captain and his two assistants and four sigs went ashore with the infantry, right? And back on the ship there was another army captain and he was in complete con- charge of any support that was coming from that ship to that area there because what would what had happened before, no fault of the navy's, they didn't know

where people were and they would you know drop the odd big one amongst us you see. It happened in Balikpapan the same thing too but there it was you know this was to for the people on the shore, the army people, to control the fire that was supporting from the ships and they were from cruisers and destroyers, not little ships it was big ones, you know six inch shells that you've gotta be very careful on how you handle them

but you know that was the that was the reason that when I got back to the regiment the battery commander called me in and he said "Now Gunner McGirr" he says "What's this story about you and McIvor not finishing your time?" I said "Sir, we didn't want to leave the regiment". He said "March him out, thanks very much" but

Oh well I would have gone then to probably back to Flinders. Stayed there 'til I 'til I was

allocated to a group a naval bombardment group.

Oh no no

To the navy.

You could be on the ship or you could be on the there was the shore fire control party, that was the people that went ashore, and the bombardment liaison group, which stayed on the ship and the CO of it he was a full colonel was originally our 2IC, old Daddy Watshorn.

No it was a very it was a very interesting time. Lionel there, that Lionel Nicks, he went with them and he did he did three landings in Borneo and three in the Philippines, with the Americans actually.

Oh well, friends. Comrades again. Mateship.

Well it was a it was a time when you know everybody was down in the dumps and we manufactured our wood made tennis rackets out of pieces of wood and had to get a great tennis thing going. You couldn't buy proper tennis rackets and things like that. Playing football every day and you were that fit and that you know that that was our a morale builder but as I say it

was a bad time and everybody

By mateship.

Oh taking part and all that, oh yes. Yes. There was blokes played football and tennis and that that never knew what it was before.

Yes. Yeah. Mm.

Oh it's hard to say. It really is hard to say. I couldn't put a put a

a a word to it. No I couldn't. I couldn't answer that. Every day was the same. There was no change in any day. Every day was the same so you had to make do the best you could.

Mm. Mm.

Oh they would be. They would have been but we

were a very very very close regiment. All the the people who were in it that the originals who enlisted in 1940 and were at Ingleburn and then at Bathurst. We're having a thing at I'll show when we get finished this I'll show you. I just got it the other day. When the regiments finally got together they went to Bathurst for six weeks. That's where they went to the Middle East from

and the big march through Katoomba and all that sort of thing and you know. It was quite it was quite a an eff- an event at the time.

Oh no no I wasn't in the army then. No that was in 1940 yeah. I was still in the butchering business in Canberra but I'll show you a a photograph of the plaque that's been put there I think in September, mm.

Yeah.

Oh no. That's what I said there was no the logistics of getting people on leave was impossible because there was there was too many people up there. There was two hundred thousand people up there and the only form of transport was the Queensland railways and I mean they were flat out feeding us. You know getting the food up there.

Well

Oh yes it's a marvel and the people were marvellous people. They were great people the people on the Tablelands and also you've got two extinct volcano lakes up there, Lake Eacham and Lake Barrine. Well Lake Eacham it was rationed you Sunday was our day to go there to swim. Not Barrine, because Barrine was where the corps commander and all his staff lived

but they were same type have you been have you seen those lakes?

Oh go up and see them. They're marvellous. Water, you could drink it. You there's no fish or anything in it because it's and Lake Eacham they've never been able to reach the bottom but it's like the water out of the tap. Absolutely beautiful fresh water and that was oh all day it'd take you your tucker with us and that but that was rationed as to how many days

because as you can imagine fifty or sixty thousand people, you couldn't have them all at the one place at the one time. I've been back there three times. Oh it's marvellous. Beautiful.

No. There was ver- there was no up there around there was no women around at all

but they I used to go to the dances in Atherton. I got to know some of the local girls. They were all nice very nice people but there was nothing like that because the army had control. Do you follow what I mean?

Of the whole area and they didn't want those people there.

In Cairns, yes, there was there the registered brothels are still there in Cairns but they were of

limited oh I don't know I never got there but you know some of the blokes did but they were always supervised but there was no you know open slather and that they were all licensed. They they're still there as a matter of fact. I can't think of the name of the street now.

Yeah well by their own local authorities you know testing them for what have you and so forth.

Oh yes

and Townsville was the same but

Well as I say the Brisbane line, the Brisbane line was a bit of a farce actually. They were going to abandon everything north of I think Mackay, Cairns, Townsville and as I say you could buy houses in Townsville for fifty pounds

and people were evacuated south for I don't know whether it was forcibly or voluntary or not I don't know but I mean a lot of the older type of people wouldn't have wouldn't have left anyway, and the Brisbane line was the 18th Brigade at Kilcoy, that was us, the 25th brigade at Woodford, which was about fifteen mile away and the 21st Brigade

was on the coast. Well they're all linked up and they had an artillery regiment to each one. Well that farce lasted for we arrived there in the March, March, April we arrived there in the May. That went through 'til we left to go to New Guinea and then it all just disappeared but the Brisbane line was a fact known that they were going to abandon the north part of Australia 'cause they couldn't defend it.

That's right. That was us. That was us and then the next lot you had would have been Toowoomba, Warwick and those places.

Oh heavens no. Heavens no. We used to send [(UNCLEAR)] there's a bit of a word going on now whether there was five hundred Japs were going to land in Western Australia. There's a bit in the paper about it just now and that was all farcical. They could have landed and they could have eaten them

because there were two armour divisions, two infantry divisions, of ours, in that northern area. The Japs couldn't have landed. The Japs knew that. That was only just a bit of a diversion and a bit of a joke.

Oh well I never knew we never knew anything about it. When we left the Brisbane area we went straight up to the Curai [?], the Atherton Tablelands. We got to Gordonvale,

by the train, that's there near up the Gillies Highway by road and that was you know with the I the defence of Townsville then was most probably been three or four ack ack [anti aircraft gun] regiments and a few infantry because there was there was nothing else there were diddling for people to do there because the situation in New Guinea was getting grimmer and grimmer and that's how it happened.

I as it turned out now the Japs that were there, there was plenty of them there was about I think there was fourteen thousand landed altogether in the whole area but you see they dug in holes and half of them were filled up to here with water

and the people who'd fought them there you had to dig them out at the end of the day and they wouldn't surrender but we could have left them, pulled all our people out instead of letting them die with malaria and scrub typhus and just pattern bombed them out of it like we had we were building up a lot of aircraft there and I mean the Americans’ Fortresses and Liberators and you know that that big airports air strips in Moresby. There was fifty or sixty of them lined

up in one together and you know the the Japs weren't going to reinforce it. There's a as a matter of fact there's a bit in the Reveille [ex service magazine] this week the part that saved the northern part of New Guinea was the Battle of the Bismarck Sea. You've heard of that. Well there's an article in about 30 Squadron and 8 Squadron there today. They just they machine-gunned them in the water and everything you know they well they had to.

They sunk the sunk the transports and shot the rest and I knew a couple of the pilots in that squad. I still know one of them and that but you see that Gona business now I'll tell you the battle for Gona itself the 2/7th Cav [Cavalry] Regiment, they went to the Middle East. They were garrisoned Cyprus. When we came home

there were had Bren carriers and that sort of thing but there was no work for them you see so they'd de-horsed them as they called it in the old days and took them over to Gona and I think there was only thirty three that came out of there alive. I mean a lot of them were wounded but it just decimated them and I'll tell you who was the CO. Remember Charles Moses used to be with them. He was the CO then. He was like [(UNCLEAR)]. The CO was killed

and he was sent up from Australia to take it up.

He's a retired major general. Well he's talking about an Anzac Day. He said "Charles" he said "You could go back" he said "'Til day one" he said. "What was necessary?" he said.

Well he was involved

right in it. He was CO of 2/1st Battalion and I think when he when he left Popondetta to fly back over to Moresby I think it was seventy eight out of eight hundred. That was his regiments. Some of them were down to I think the 39th were down to thirty five.

That's all. The rest were

evacuated sick or killed or wounded and it didn't you know that Buna Sanananda was the hardest of all that New Guinea campaigns. I mean our little one at Milne Bay was eleven days. It was only short. Hard but short but they were there for weeks. They were there for weeks. They were there from October, November, December, January. Four months. Four months of slogging.

We had two batteries there. When I saw when we our two troops there. 55 Battery but when I say that I say it with reserve because on the way up from Milne Bay to Buna two of our barges were sunk and lost all the guns and you can

a twenty-five pounder shell, that's what it means. Twenty-five pound and to carry the stuff up you it was one man to two shells. There was no transport. Everything was done by hand because there was no roads. It's well at Buna now when I was up there a few years ago was a beautiful road right to Popondetta but then the road actually to back to the track to Buna, Sanananda was the same as it was then.

The water's still there too but no I think a lot of those a lot of those campaigns they could have let well see well when they came when they got out of the Owen Stanleys General Horii sat down with his blokes and said "We've reached the end" and they started withdrawing the next day and 25th Brigade chased them. He was drowned crossing the Kabusi [?] River 'cause it it's the it's the country itself. It's the

dreadful country. I mean now Charlie Lynn like, he's a member of parliament he's got that opened again the thing and Charlie was up there for him, he went back to here actually organising them and gets paid for it and I said "Oh" I said "Charles" I said "You wouldn't know it now" I said "I was at Moresby-Kokoda seven years ago and you wouldn't." He said "Oh you wouldn't know it now" he said "Everything's all changed" and there's an in an interesting thing for you.

We flew in from Popondetta to Kokoda, which is only nine minutes flying, and that's when I went on that trip, and Graham Keller, Dr Keller, who was the chief physician he says "Charles" he says "When we get up there. Come up and have a look at the new hospital with me" he said and it was an eighty bed hospital, beautifully built and when we got to the when we landed a bloke pulls up in a jeep. A bloke I knew from Taree

who was a builder in Taree and these you know they volunteered to go up there and do this work and

Righto. Yeah.

Very small one. It was. What happened was the Japanese who were there had been in a convoy going to Milne Bay and the convoy had been split up and had sunk and about a hundred and fifty of them got to Goodenough which was that's the what they call the D' Entrecasteaux group Ferguson, Goodenough and there's another one.

I can't think of it at the moment and they were going to become there's quite a few quite a few good natives on Goodenough. They were going to become a problem so two companies of the 2/12th Battalion and Don, Charlie troop of our regiment they went there and cleaned 'em up in about four days.

Oh no no. No, no, no. 'Cause 10

Battery hadn't been involved in the fighting in Milne Bay so that was part of their show there and then Goodenough became the operational became the big operational fighter plane fighter cover for all the raids on Rabaul and all that. That was theirs. 75 Squadron was there, 76, 77. 77 was there for about nine months. A friend of mine was the CO and he he's still

a friend of mine. He came from that troop to New Guinea. That's a fella called Dick Creswell. He shot the first plane down over Darwin in 1942.

Yeah, yeah.

1st of July 1945. It was a very well planned operation.

To give you an idea what it must have looked on D Day in that convoy for when we left Morotai you couldn't see the start of it or the end of it. There was thirty two ships in the convoy and that was just one division been landed and we landed at right in where we landed at hedge past twenty which means that's twenty minutes after the first troops were bought, we landed right in the residential

area and you know it was a it was a beautifully built place 'cause Balikpapan was the refinery area for all the oil in Borneo. It was all pumped there, refined and sent out from there. The Japs had a little weak effort about lighting you heard about it in Iraq too. Drains full of oil and that but they only burned for a couple of minutes and all they created was a bit of smoke. Didn't do us any harm.

Yeah but in Iraq?

Oh it was it wasn't a deterrent and see they bombed solidly there for ten days every day in daylight and three days before we landed half the American fleet was there and as we were landing the cruisers and that were firing over the top of us and you know

there wasn't a live Jap within half a mile but when we got in about ten o'clock in the morning we ran into a place called Mount Malang and they'd been dug in there for four or five years and we were attached to 2/16th Battalion and I remember this very very well we'd

bedded down there for the night and it bloody well rained and the hole was full as usual and next morning they were we put down a barrage to sort of soften them up and a fella called Lance Armstrong, who was a platoon commander, in 2/16th he said "This is not gonna be easy." I heard him saying to Colonel Sublet the CO 'cause we were up with the forward company and

they he was killed and nine others taken his they had they had emplacements you know right deep in and the only way you could get 'em out was go and take 'em out with a bayonet and I think we killed about seventeen or eighteen that morning.

Yeah we were right there. I saw Lance's been carried out he died 'bout a couple of hours later. Fella from

Leeton he was.

I saw him when they were bringing him out. We were you know thirty or forty yards behind.

Oh well a rifle and a phone 'cause I was on the 'phone with our troop commander, Trevor McMakin and I was his sig and he was giving the stuff to me and I'm passing it back to the guns.

No no. No we didn't we never got to that this time because it was a different type it was that Borneo campaign it was the country was more open and that was that was the second morning that was the second yeah the second morning after we landed and then our troop that same day we were brought back and they made a they were gonna make

a 2/9th Battalion was making another landing and to secure the other side of the harbour and that's where we went with them. There was we weren't a great deal. We only had to sit looking at 'bout seven hundred Japs seeing that they didn't get away and we were out on a high feature above the with the platoon of 2/9th battalion and on the hour every hour at night they'd send over ten

parachute flares. That's so they could keep an eye on them. They were all about half a mile away so they weren't getting out during the night and we finished up taking their surrender there. They surrendered from there.

Oh they wanted they would have got out you see and there was a ship tied up there we're talking about fifteen hundred tonne and the 2/9th Battalion took it actually and one wag got over the side and wrote in big

big letters “HMAS 2/9th Battalion. Ours.”

Yes we landed at the name of the place that we landed was Kelandasan. We landed there and there was a bit of sporadic firing. Nothing startling or anything and there was this two Sydney Morning Herald reporters and

about half an hour before you know there was a bit of concentrated fire in a place close to you see and they were blokes they were blokes in their late thirties, early forties, Sydney Morning Herald and something, I can't remember now, and I said to them I said “Be careful going in there boys” I said “There's still a few angry ones in there.” Didn't take any notice. Five minutes later they were dead. That's written in the war history

that you know they were not taking notice of silly the soldiers. They were gonna go their own way. They were killed within seconds of each other, 'cause you get little patches like that, three or four, decided to stay and the only way you get them out is dig them out on the end of a bayonet you see and

Oh shot, yeah, and of course there was a sergeant, a 2/16th

commander, a bullet wound in the face and he said “There's about half a dozen of the bludgers in there” he said and they did they didn't take any notice and the CO of the field ambulance was had landed there and was just going in a beeline through the trees to where some of his blokes were and you wouldn't want to know a coconut tree fell on him and killed him. Colonel, I can't think of his name now, but little instances like that

you know they stick in your mind.

Well I was Captain McMakin was our troop commander and I was his sig, that means I was behind him with a telephone 'round my neck, and we were with the 2/16th Battalion, which was the one of the forward battalions, and we went right through with them for two days and then the action was

as I said when that little on the second morning that little sharp thing cost us about fifteen people. The platoon commander and about seven wounded and about eight killed.

Well that what I was telling you about you know they had they were dug in these holes in the side of the mountain and the only way you could go in there with flamethrowers or, and they had flamethrowers too,

was to dig 'em out.

Going in to the where they were dug in and killing 'em but they killed some of ours too.

No there was no Americans in the landing at Borneo, no.

Flamethrowers too they were using and digging them out. Shoot or killing them or what have you.

Oh yes, yes.

Oh well you know it it's the same old thing as if they were in the same position they'd kill us so it's kill or be killed sort of thing. See we had the enormous support of three very skilled regiments of artillery. We had

the sky covered, we had the sea covered you know but still there's that part of an operation that's got to be done right at the end with the infantry bloke going in to dig 'em out shall we say with a bayonet and blow 'em away.

Yeah

You can't imagine it. Well believe me that that's happened, that's happened lots of times since too. We had the same thing later on further up they used the flamethrower quite a bit. Not a very nice thing because then again the bloke using it he he's the target too.

They were just a thing on the back and a

nozzle thing that when you pressed the thing it fired a cartridge and shot a flame of oh about forty feet I suppose.

Yeah, mm.

Fuel

And he always had a couple of blokes very close to him 'cause he was always susceptible to get blown away shall we say but no the Balikpapan campaign lasted from the first

until the fourteenth but the last fortnight of the war we were all back to playing football and everything sort of thing

'Cause there was nothing you know there was nothing sort of happening. It was a very sharp, nasty campaign Balikpapan. Very nasty.

Never worried about.

Never thought about it. Never give it a thought. Never give it a thought. Never give it a thought because if you did it I don't know what would have happened to you.

I doubt it. I doubt it. All those hard infantry blokes no they they'd some of those fellas had been in in the Syrian campaign and they'd been in Tobruk. They'd been over the Owen Stanleys no no not at all.

No

the smell came later when they started to get a bit rotten. That's the terrible thing. When you used to go through places that where they'd murdered natives. We found a place where they'd butchered thirty three Filippinos and burnt and set the place alight and you know it was just teeming with maggots and what have you and they had no need to do that because they'd brought a lot a lot of people from Java were labourers too

and they gave them a dreadful time. No you sort of “There but for the grace of God go I.”

What?

Oh well it's you know heavy firing going on all the time and we'd just we'd put down hundred rounds of twenty five rounds per gun five minutes beforehand and I mean you don't get much time for silence after that

you know they're exploding four hundred yards five hundred yards in front of you. You don't the noise is pretty heavy but it was too close for air strikes because the feature was too high and if they hadda come in used air strikes they'd have probably killed half of us too you see.

Oh no.

Yes

well you see lat- later that day we were on a feature further would have been west, that's right, and we were with the battalion headquarters, a fella called Arthur Lee, and I was with the sig with Captain McMakin again and could see these the carrier

two carriers were further up and I said to Captain McMakin I said "Have they ordered an air strike?" He said "Not that I know of." I said "Well have a look at this will you?" and somebody had given the wrong coordinates. I dived in a concrete drain and there was about three or four wounded badly because the they were firing too far this side instead

of a hundred and fifty or three hundred yards on the other side but that happened that's that happened repeatedly. You had to be very careful with air strikes.

No it was very smooth. Absolutely planned to the nth degree. It was marvellous but we weren't short of anything. We had plenty of ammunition. We had plenty of air support. We had everything because

at that stage of the war you should have. The war had been going on for four and a half years.

Oh none. The planning at Milne Bay was just haphazard you know there was nothing well they didn't have time to plan. We landed the we landed on the 21st and the Japs landed on the 24th. It was very very chaotic, believe me and there was only for the grace of God that that

we had got there the time before like 18th Brigade because we were hard and experienced you see. There was only a militia brigade there which you they did a marvellous job later on. Marvellous job.

Do you know there was not a map of the area. Old ordinance maps of practically a hundred years previous and with

particularly with artillery support when you get your co-ordinates right the mapping of the area is very very important, as Johnny Firth would have probably told you. Johnny would know because he had one gun up the first night but no it was oh it and nothing wrong with the fellows who were running it. Major General I can't think of his name

Oh George he was a brigade commander. He lived over the back here. I was speaking to him the week before he died and oh he was a marvellous man. He was a marvellous man.

Big gut that big. But you know where he always was? Up there with the forward company. No tin hat. His cap on with his red braid on

and his stick. I never seen him with a revolver in his hand 'cause it was still in his belt but he had his guards with him of course. He was a marvellous man. Great man, George Wootton. He lives o- he lived over the back here. They just sold the place. His daughter Estelle sold the place three years ago.

There was three houses there. He his history was he was one of the first graduates from Duntroon. Then after the war they had, like he became a half colonel.

Yeah and he then he had to revert to what slipped out at rank was lieutenant. So he said "No I'll resign" and became a lawyer. Went to West Wyalong.

That's where all the family were brought up and you know how many were in the were in his family. No there was only three. One son was killed in Syria and Estelle lived at the back here in the old house. She married a fella called John Clancy oh many years ago. She had seventeen children. They had a furniture shop in Mosman. Do you know what the telegraphic

address was? Clancy Overflow. I think that's rather humorous don't you? I still see her. All the family's all gone now of course.

Yeah well I'll come back to that. I'll have to get the book.

Oh he's I know him well myself. There's a photograph of him too. Could you just stop for a second?

Yeah “Mud Guts”.

No he was marvellous man. Marvellous man.

The Balikpapan, Balikpapan campaign we landed on the first and on the fifth we were the 2/9th Battalion secured the other side of the harbour and

went right very heavy fighting on both sides up until about the war finished on the fourteenth of a month of very hard fighting because they had when the battalions moved up further up the coast to Sepanjang air strip and Mangar air

strip they had big heavy guns up on the hills and a very good friend of mine, his he got his commission in the Middle East, a fella called Bob Chapman. He came 'round to me at Morotai and said "Well" he said "I've got good news for you." I said "Congratulations on the captaincy Bob" or "Sir" I said. He said "My wife had a son today."

"Oh well" I said "that's marvellous." 'Cause we were old friends you see and he was then he got his captaincy and he was at one of the troops on near the bottom of the air strip and within five seconds he and four others were killed “Bang bang bang” and Frank Richardson, who was the CO, he was badly wounded and a very very personal friend of mine was Paul O'Neill. He was killed there

and just a little aside of that family, there were four of them in the services. One brother was shot down and killed over Germany, Bob was killed at Balikpapan and the other brother was taken prisoner in Malaysia and he died the week the war finished.

Oh big oh I was

fifty mile away at the time when I heard about it. He was he was well he was he went from our troop to the job that he took and he was you know really one of the boys. Terrific bloke.

"Why the good blokes?" He was a terrific man all the way through and you could you could talk to him and

see he was a very very good officer but it had an impact and particularly with his assistant, who was Paul O'Neill, like we were all gambling mates together and card players and two up and that and Paul was a real bit of a larrikin and they were killed the same shell killed them but it was a bit of a shock. As I say we were forty or fifty mile away from them but it was. That was one thing that

makes you sort of think you know but Balikpapan with that as I say there would there would have been no fire there would have been very little firing for the last fortnight. We were due to move to the oil fields further up and then that that night the word came through the war was over so then it was "Who cares?"

and it was it was a very short, sharp campaign. I think we lost five killed, which is you know big for an artillery regiment.

On the?

Not on the radio.

Yeah. All the time.

Yeah carry the phone and also

help to carry the next reel of wire and as I say our last job big job was watching the seven or eight hundred Japanese. We could even see them coming out of a morning, going to the toilet and everything, and there was a platoon of the 2/9th with us and I knew this fellow, Ted Gamble, he he'd got his commission after the Owen Stanleys and he said "No" he says "don't ever go with them" he says.

"You all we're doing is watching 'em" and I was a smoker then. You see you couldn't light a cigarette a night because you know you see we'd be waiting 'til on the hour you'd hear shot from the telephone to 'bout ten seconds later they'd burst overhead the parachute flares and you could light up and smoke and you'd

Oh they knew we were there alright. They knew we were there but I mean the we had the river between us

and they were you know another five or six hundred yards for in sort of holes in the ground and that.

Not tents. Oh no no no. I mean they were the

Yeah they were waiting yes and it if the time had have come if the war had’ve gone long and we had to go and hunt them out there would have been quite a few people

dead on both sides because the you know they had the advantage of where they were.

Well it to have given away your exact position you see. There was eighteen, twenty five of us all spread out over an area oh as twice as big as the backyard down there.

Oh yes see when like you know

Well an average day like say the first day we landed at Balikpapan we went through here and then up into this high feature which there was you know very little resistance from the night before but

I was with the troop commander, who's he's a captain. I was with him but two steps behind him all the time and he was liaising with the CO of the battalion he was with and everything, and all that sort of thing. You were there and as soon as you pulled up you plugged your phone in and spoke back to the gun position to make sure the line was through and as soon as you when you run

out of one reel of wire and hooked another one up to it you did the same thing again but you were there close to and well as close as you can get to the enemy fellas there because the forward company or the and the you you're always with the forward company. You're not far away from the enemy.

Well you know like that that when we pulled up that night I suppose they were a hundred and fifty yards away but the

attack that we that was planned that didn't take place 'til daylight the next morning and we sent over twenty four twenty five hundred rounds and then the infantry went in.

The planned the previous night for daylight the next day.

Oh no no. This is just this little fracas that we were in on the second day.

Mount Malang.

It was a high feature, quite a high feature, and that's where they were dug in there and we the we got through there by about twelve o'clock and then went on further along you know but they were resisting all the way.

Out on the end of a bayonet. Flamethrowers. Burnt out. There was about thirty of them I think when they counted the casualties out.

We lost I think three, three killed and eleven wounded or something like that. I can't remember the figures now.

In that particular campaign that was one of the basic things because they were all dug in you see. There was no sort of an open hole thing. They were dug into the into the side of the mountain and there was Japanese

civilians there too as we found out later because there were civilians working in the area and well they had to go where the army went.

Oh they died at the same time, yeah.

No. No didn't see didn't see any families there at all. There could have been but they might have been further up in the oil fields. They would have been further up at a place called Samboja where the actual drilling took place. Where the oil wells were.

Well it was practically open country. Until you got you know in a bit it was went down here. As open as that. The residential area, Kelandasan, the residential area, was like Marrickville except the houses were a different but it was a it was a you know large residential area. It, Balikpapan was

for the Dutch was the gem. That was the place. That was the best or one of the best oil fields in the world and all the houses and everything all the accommodation was beautifully built and the Japs when they moved and took it over they the when they took the Netherlands East Indies the Dutch didn't put up much of a resistance and they sort of got everything as it was.

Oh no

well when I say it wasn't it wasn't all intact because there'd been ten days air strikes on it before you see.

Um 'bout two thirds of it. Two thirds of it, yeah but the it was all it's practically open country like country you would say around oh the northern peninsula

yeah and then as you got further in then you got into the scrub and high grass and that but the two big air strips or the big air strip which was on the Mangar River that you know it was an enormous place big and you know very very well very well defended and no scrub around there.

Well we heard these rumours that President Truman was saying something about a bomb or something and we you know we didn't know what an atomic bomb was you know sort of thing and then on the 8th we heard it had been dropped and this I remember the CO saying "Well that's the end of the war" he said "That's the finish" and it finished on the

14th. They dropped the one on Nagasaki I think three days later and that was the end.

Oh yes it was sad and then we had a thing came up before that that if you had first served five years and two years overseas you were eligible to go home and be discharged and our first lot were due to go the day the war finished. No it was a

you know a time of rejoicing and said "Well that's that over. We're still alive and on with the show" sort of thing and the regiment was assembled then at as I say that at Mangar and it was a beautiful big river and we were building boats and sailing and everything. It was a pleasure actually.

Oh yes.

Yes we had an issue of beer. You

got a bottle of beer every day, which was you know something that they'd never had before. I didn't drink in those days and I gave mine away. So that was it but it it's suppose you look back on it it's something that happened and I'm still friends with people that I met sixty three years ago so

No no we were in tents.

Tents. Oh you can make a tent very comfortable. I lived in tents oh most of the time of the war. The only time I can ever remember being in huts was at Manila Road at Tamworth. There it was tents in the Middle East, it was tents in the regiment, tents in New Guinea, tents on the Tablelands, and you could make a tent very comfortable.

Very comfortable and then you see if we this is something that we never had stretchers as the Americans had but one bright thing about Moresby, we found a big American dump where they stored their stretchers. In the process of a fortnight we thieved a thousand, enough to put the whole regiment. I carried that stretcher to

Japan with me. Still with my number written on the legs and I left it when I left Japan but the Jap the Americans didn't worry. There was a bit of an enquiry on it. Nothing.

Well they came 'round looking for people to go to Japan so they particularly wanted some artillery men.

So 'bout I think eight of us volunteered and say "Righto" and they said "you're going to Japan in a field battery" which was a regular army they called it. It's still part of the establishment here. So we were in that for about six or eight days and then a message came 'round "Sorry boys we don't need you"

because all the sods that stayed back in Australia they give them first preference so that was that. So then Colonel Marsden from he was forming 65 Battalion. Old Drover Dick. Terrific man he was, he come 'round and asked did anybody want to go to 65 Battalion so I went there for a fortnight but it was back to the old square bashing you know basic

training again so we had the option. It was great to you know after being disciplined for five and a half years you could do what you liked so not for me I said "Go home" and then a very good friend of mine, we're still friendly today oh he was down on Anzac Day he got the job he was in my troop he was in B Troop with me he got the job as Brigade Sar- Major [Sergeant Major] in the 34th Brigade headquarters

so all of us that wanted to go we all got cushy jobs for the trip to Japan. I had a marvellous time in Japan.

An another old he was a doctor and a qualified engineer, John Merry, terrific man he was. He was the CO of the field ambulance. So he came round to see us and he and he said "Can you drive

Gunner McGirr?" I said "Yes sir." He said "How would you like to come to the field ambulance?" So I went to the field ambulance and I had eleven months holiday in Japan. I used to be his driver for awhile and we used to go everywhere and no guard duty or anything like that so that's how I finished my time in Japan and when I was leaving and he said "You wouldn't think of coming back McGirr would you?" I said "No sir" I said "I've had my time." He said

"Well there you go" but he was no no I got on well with everybody and could behave in the right manner.

Right.

Mhm.

Well it was received with great joy, I can tell you that. I can remember it and that we even fired off half a dozen without the shell up the barrel

just the cartridge just to celebrate, which wasn't the done thing of course but the battery commander at the time forgave us but no it was great joy because we realised then it was you know when we went to when we were going from Morotai down I remember a couple of saying "Oh this is another one of those unnecessary things because it'll be over in a few weeks" and that's how it turned out. It was received with great joy and

everybody to get back to what we were and back to family and everything was something that we all looked forward to.

Yes, later on when I went from Balikpapan to Morotai we had a compound of

oh we had them at Balikpapan too, we had a com- compound of about seven hundred that we were looking after but they were no trouble. They we had them out on working parties you didn't turn your back on them you kept your back with them to toward them but none of them were any problem. We had there in that compound a Catholic bishop, Japanese, who was down visiting the Catholics amongst the Japanese in Borneo when

we were finished. Bishop Yamaguchi and he was in with in with the officers and that and there was no problem no no problem whatsoever. They accepted it I mean we didn't frat- fraternise with them but we it was a “no no” but we had the about seven hundred and fifty of them there for looking after. We used to get their food and everything you know, deliver it to them and that and

no problem. They used to go fishing and you know they they'd go out fishing and Borneo waters are very very shallow in toward shore and they have these big fishing things go out and the tide comes up the fish go in then when the tide goes out they can't get out and they used to share their fish with us and everything but we never had any problems.

No no I didn't no. No, no, no but

I forget where he came from. I think he came from Yokohama he was visiting down there

Well they were probably as glad as we were that it was over because some of those fellows had been in the army ten and fifteen years in China, in Korea and then down to hard fighting

in the Pacific and they were glad it was over.

Oh yes, yeah.

Well one instance. I'm glad you asked me that. There was about two hundred we saved or released them actually two hundred Indians

who'd been taken prisoner in Singapore I think or somewhere up there and Malaysia and they'd been brought down there as labourers, slave labourers and one day there was people from the Military Police and that came along that these four Indians they lined them all up and picked out the ones that had given them the bad time and they were all tried as war criminals 'cause they killed a few of the

Indians. That was that was the only in incident I can remember of that sort of thing but that was quite prevalent in Morotai and Rabaul and all those places that they you know they picked out the ones that they weren't going back to Japan to be tried they were tried there and executed two days later. They're that's I went to a couple of the trials at Morotai. I can remember this Japanese doctor with

wavy hair, stuck in my mind, and he was found guilty and he was executed three days later.

Oh you know murdering people. See there was a cruel streak amongst them that they weren't all like it and even the blokes that were in Changi and all those places will tell you that. They weren't all mad butchers but they did

the justice in New Guinea and even up oh two years later in Rabaul they were still trying them and I knew the hangman. He became he was the Police Superintendent and Ron Hicks was his name and he executed about ninety. He was the official hangman but there was no going back to Japan to be tried or anything, they were tried on the spot and no no messing around. They knew the

ones they knew they knew they had the evidence there that that they'd done they'd done these things.

Well you heard the full story because these fellows who was accusing them and there were all our judges and you know majors

and colonels and a couple of civilian judges oh, what's his name? Athol, Athol Moffitt, he became a Justice here later on. He was the he was the prosecutor at one of those and he was a brilliant man but there was no messing around you know once they were sentenced to life imprisonment or the noose there were, none of them were shot, there was there was no

appeal there was no grounds for appealing which was a good thing actually. I it had two days in Japan at Tojo's trial. Went there for two days just you know to listen and see what was going on. That was a bit protracted and it went on for about five weeks but they hanged them all.

He was the Prime Minister. Terrible man. He influenced

oh the Emperor was a weak so and so. He influenced the Emperor. You've heard of Tojo haven't you? Mm.

Yeah. Well he was the Japanese Prime Minister from 19- 1941 'til the cessation of hostilities and then he was tried and six weeks later they strung him up. They strung up six of them and the part that they're going crook about now that those bodies were buried

or their ashes were buried away somewhere secret they still and the they've got them up since and taken them to Yakasuni Shrine, that's the war memorial, which is should never have been but yes, that that little episode was enlightening shall we say but the there was never any problem with the Japanese POWs that we got

at the end of the war. Not like the Cowra business they were said "Well we were taken prisoner and we're sorry for it" and they tried to escape so X amount were shot and killed. You knew about that didn't you? Cowra?

Oh yes.

Well there was plenty of timber around and everything and plenty of tent flies to make sails and that. Mangar River was a beautiful place. Plenty of fish in it and everything too. It was an ideal an ideal thing and we got a I think three bottles of beer a week you know it was it was life that we weren't used to. It was very very good but then the

joy wore off and everybody pardon me everybody wanted to get away get home. The war finished in August and by December everybody was home. We handed all our equipment over to the Netherlands Government and the regiment ceased to exist in December I think. December '45 yeah well about the same time that every everybody else was

No no you see everybody trickled away. There'd be a couple of hundred go this week and a couple of hundred the next and then there was the odds and sods left to look after the equipment 'til we handed it over to the Dutch which I suppose shouldn't have been done because they used it to kill Indonesians later and that's something over which we had no control.

Mhm.

Mm.

Well we'd heard various rumours that they they've got a big bomb somewhere you know you know it would finish everybody off and yeah there was rumours around that something was going to happen and there would be a little bit of filtering through on the news you know when you got it you know on the

radio and that but nobody really knew and when the when the bomb was dropped on the 8th at Hiroshima we said "That's it" and three days later the on Nagasaki and I've been to both places since and it was you know well they said you know there'll be no more no more fighting. Then on the 14th it was announced that Hirohito had

surrendered and that was us too.

No we heard it on the news and then it came out on routine orders saying that cessation hos- hos- hostilities had ceased at X at a particular time and that was it and to prepare ourselves for further duties like we'd be looking after POWs and what have you and then they wanted some volunteers to go over to Singapore to bring back our fellows

but there was that many volunteers you know nobody oh well three or four got over there. That was to help rehabilitate the 8th division and then they were they were repatriated to Australia mostly, the ones that were fit enough, by air from Singapore to Balikpapan and Balikpapan to I think Darwin and then home. They work they shot

they worked very quickly and got them all out.

I didn't come home.

I went straight to Japan.

Mm.

Well we were at Morotai for oh three months and the it was politics and you could then

give notice and retire, resign, and we lost half the occupation force because fellows were sick of waiting at a dreadful place Morotai, which is north of Balikpapan, and then the word came there were two ships had been allocated for the occupation force from Japan for to to take us to Japan and we embarked there at Morotai and nine days later we unloaded at Kirai which was snowing

and freezing in the middle of winter mind you this was February. The bomb was dropped the bomb was dropped in the August and we were there the end of January and it's the Japanese winter is a very severe one and of course going from the tropics up there everybody got cold sores and colds and everything but we survived and then it was then a matter of to do the job that we had to do which was to help with the repatriation

of these people from China then I went to Tokyo for five weeks which was a a an eye opener. Beautiful city, Tokyo. I've been back there twice since and then they asked us anybody wanted to stay on or go home so I just I went up with the first lot and came back with the first lot. We came back on the

Westralia and disembarked at Circular Quay.

Oh yes, we were all volunteers.

Oh I thought I'd like to go and have a look and just see what the place was like because I knew that coming back to Australia everybody would be rushing to get here, there and there was thousands and thousands of discharged every day and I thought get back when things have quietened

down and it turned out it was the right way and also they were when you were in Japan you didn't have to draw any money out of your pay book because you could always sell stuff to the populace that they were short of, sugar and cigarettes and what have you and so instead of coming home and spending all your money it was banking up all the time but Japan was it was a it was an eye opener. I mean we were the place we were

the unit billets were stuff that the Japanese army had but a mile and a half from Hiroshima at a place called Kaitachi and it's freezing in the winter and roasting in the summer but we were there in the November and we had all our beer stored up for Christmas and a big earthquake and when I say a big earthquake it was six point something

on the Richter scale. Big as the one in Turkey and all and the car park where all our trucks were the trucks were crashing into each other and that and backwards and forwards. That was my first experience of an earthquake. I was in a couple of minor ones in New Guinea later but I tell you what, it frightens you, and then as I say the all that sort of went away and I thought

"Oh this enough, I'm going home." Most of us did. I think there was about three signed up to go back and we arrived back here in February 1947.

Easy. I got myself a good job. I was driver the CO's driver for awhile, I was the an ambulance driver for awhile, which I enjoyed, and a little episode I can tell you I went to Tokyo

for five weeks as an ambulance driver and the Americans were very strict on speed limits and that and I was flying in with I'd picked up two cases of beer to at a little bit of shenanigans we had with this fellow and the next thing an American major pulled up alongside "Pull over driver." He said "You know you're exceeding the speed limit." "Sir" I said "I've got two cases on board."

See the thing? And he interpreted it as two injured people. He said "Follow me" so away he went and I just turned at the next street and took off. Well you see you've got to think when you're in those things you see.

Oh it was. That was a marvellous experience in Tokyo it was a beautiful city. Nearly destroyed nearly flattened but as I say once again the Japanese people

they didn't no resentment.

Excellent. Excellent. Everybody they sort of you know when I say they were ones that were a little bit difficult but it was their own fault. What they call the Nisei, the Americans who were born in America and there was three hundred and sixty thousand of them rounded up on the west coast and put in encampments it's the day war broke out

'cause the Americans weren't going to trust any of them. These people resented, but they had the opportunity of volunteering for the services and serving in Europe, which about sixty thousand of them did, but these ones that dragged their feet and that they as soon as soon as the war finished back to Japan. They were all our cooking staff, all our cleaners and everything were American-born Japanese and they were a bit nasty you know.

They resented what had happened to them but they had the opportunity go the other way and they didn't.

Oh resented like working for us. "Why should be working for you sods?" you know sort of thing for a mere a mere you know practically their food and a little bit of money and you know you could say to them "Oh well you had the chance and you didn't part of it." They deported about I think

out of that three hundred and sixty thousand they deported about two hundred thousand after the war. Straight up they no beg pardons. As soon as the war finished "You back to Japan."

Well we were camped I used to go to I used to go Hiroshima every day.

In August 1946

there was a an American nav- naval captain came to stay with us, his name was Captain Murphy, and I was allocated at his driver for the week. I used to take him to Hiroshima Hospital every morning and pick him up at four o'clock in the afternoon. He was studying the effect of the atomic bomb on the people after and he said "Would you like to come in Driver McGirr?" he said. I

said "Sir" I said "Yes just to have a look" and one day was enough for me and I said the you know then there were recovering but they were still burnt and terrible and that. I said "How many are here sir?" He said "Well" he said "there was about eleven hundred" he said "but it's down to about seven now." He was putting his report in as a physician on their condition twelve months later.

Oh you know completely skin

burnt off head everything, arms, fingers clawed up like that. Some of them survived. Some of them are surviving today. There was something in the paper about a photograph of one just recently of a one of the Hiroshima survivors or Nagasa- when I say Hiroshima and here's a funny thing for you they talk about you know the fall out from atomic stuff and this, that and the other thing. You know what our top dressing on our football field

was? Black sand from the river at Hiroshima. Black sand from the Hiro- Hiroshima River and that would have been nice and hot. We never thought of anything then. It was never discussed. The centre of where the bomb ex that building is still standing but there was no when we got there was no reconstruction and the Jesuits

were very strong in Japan. That was one of their places. They went to the they went to Japan in 1870 and outside Hiroshima there was a place our 2IC was a holy Raman and he and I used to go to mass up at this monastery about a mile and a half from where the bomb struck and they were all Spaniards. We used to take them up sugar and meat and all that sort of thing because they were doing it pretty tough

and one of the bosses there was a fellow called Pedro Arrupe. He later became the Black Pope. He finished up as the head Jesuit in Rome.

Oh yes. He was a very nice fellow. Very nice fellow. See as you know the Jesuits their educations are way up there. Before you can become to Jesuit you've got to have degrees in this,

that and the other thing.

Flattened. Flattened. It was there nothing there you know there was I think seventy two thousand people killed and X amount burnt and wounded and that but there was no reconstruction when we when we got there. They you know they were living in shacks and what the best they could. You've seen photographs of it haven't

you? Well that's as it was and where we were was about a mile and a half on the Kirai side where it did it didn't affect there at all and Kirai itself which was the head naval base for the whole of the Japanese fleet that was nearly as flattened as Hiroshima with conventional bombing but the Japanese were you know the

very resourceful people and that's why they where they are today. MacArthur loaned them eight hundred million, which they only paid off a couple of years ago and that started off the Japanese economy. They just got in like the Germans and said "Well this is what's happened. We've got to work." Not like the French and the British and that who wanted everybody to owe them a living and the the Germans and the Japs went way up ahead and left them all behind

and that that was it. It was just the tenacity of them. "We're defeated there's nothing we can do about it" but there was never any trouble with them attacking occupation people at all. You could go anywhere and the they no, they didn't bother you.

Well I've got to be kind and say something because I worked when I came down from New Guinea when I went to work

I worked with the Nissan Datsun and I went to Japan twice with the company and they treated us like kings, then I worked directly for Nissan for five years for a time and you never had to ask for an increase. You got your increase every six months. They were marvellous to work for. If you did your job that's all they were interested in.

Oh of course of course. I mean I was never involved in any of the horrors the fellows in Malaysia and Singapore and Frew but the there's no good my I know people now, a good friend of mine "Buy a Japanese car?" He was a prisoner for three and a half years. They had a bad bad time. He was in Bur-

Malaysia, on the railway, Borneo and then the last five months in Japan and he just can't say anything good about them. "Buy a Japanese car?" he said you know "would never think of it in my life." Oh no they're you can't carry when the sensible to think about you can't carry those resentments along of the Germans or anybody else.

It it's well the life still goes on and people have got to eat and people have to earn money so there there's not much you can do about it.

Well I we arrived there and we said "Well how are these sods going to treat us?" you know and

people said "Oh they'll turn their ba- you know as you drive past they'll turn their back" and you never saw that. No no they just had to get on with they had to get on with it because they had to get on it with because they had to eat. It was a big big food shortage in Japan for about two years after the war. They had to get everything back into production and then they started making motor cars.

Oh yes.

It was a black market. You see the exchange rate was forty eight Yen to the Pound but this way you could get two hundred. Oh no everybody did it. Top to bottom. Officers and everybody else.

You know the people coming 'round

always 'round the camps and that. See where we were there was a big a big area of residential area and blankets was the main thing they wanted because they couldn't get any blankets you see but you couldn't sell your blankets because you'd freeze yourself but we used to sell them sugar and things like that and they were craving for anything that was sweet because they'd been without it for years

and a lot of the blokes were getting a couple of thousand saccharine tablets selling up sent up from Australia and you could get ten Yen for each one.

Not really, no. A lot of the fellows you know took up with girls and that but I sort of no that's not my go. I don't want to marry any of them but I know a couple of fellows who went back

later on and married them in '48, '49 but and they're here now in Australia. Make good citizens but no, not really. I got to know a few people at in you know that we had dealings with and they were fair and honest you know. No romantic attachments or anything like that with them.

Well as you see those photographs there you could go up to the beer gardens. There was plenty of plenty of beer plenty of beer at a good price and we had a very close association with the Americans, particularly in the few weeks I was in Tokyo, and all their entertainment was PXs and everything was all open to us. You could go and buy cigarettes

you could go and buy anything, long as you had the money to pay for it, but no I didn't entertainment I suppose well some of them went chasing the girls but something that I would be outside my ambitions so I the do the best you can I suppose. I mean I was only there for a short

time. I only wanted to be there for a short time.

Mm.

Well I suppose. Contributed towards it. Contributed towards it but as I say when I

got in the motor business and a closer association with them I made some very good friends with the Japanese representatives down here for Nissan Motor Company. I still get a Chris- Christmas card from one of them and when I went to Japan '69 was it or '70 he took me to his home and entertained me and everything. Their home way of life is much different to ours. This

room would be their home. You go in take your shoes off, where you sit, there's no chairs or anything, and he was you know quite a manager well up on the managerial ranks. That's where you eat, that's where you sleep but you know it's different entirely different way that's why in Japan most of the businessmen if they do any entertainment you see them at the big nightclubs. No no I found it I found

them alright. I didn't find any big heads as we say amongst them and when I saw the meting out of justice in Borneo and New Guinea after the war and we didn't mess around that's they had to pay the price and they paid the price.

The first time. The only time. Let's see.

Just on twelve months. That included the trip up and trip back. When I went back in '70, '69. I forget whether it was '69 or '70 we were there for three weeks with you know complete the company took over the best hotels oh absolutely no no expense spared and

When I was working in the in the motor trade for Capitol Motors and every year they used to take X amount of the dealers and the Capitol Motors staff up there and I went up there I think it was the second or first the second lot, yeah. Few weeks of heaven. Everything you know laid on for you.

I was. I knew I had enough then. I knew I had enough. Came back to Sydney and got my discharge and went back to the butchering business which I only lasted about six months and that was it.

We came back on a lovely ship it was a naval ship then it was a

passenger ship on the Australian coast here the Westralia and I brought my aunt back a box a box of Japanese crockery and oh lovely stuff there was and those days you just you know there were no worries about customs and anything. All they were interested in, customs, was drugs or firearms. Everything else you just went through. It was a beautiful trip home it was

I think eleven days. Got to Circular Quay and my sister was there waiting for me and then we three days later we were thrown to the wolves. Discharged. No it was a it was a very interesting time of life. I don't regret any of it. None of it at all. I finished up with reasonable health

and have had ever since so

Oh well I I'd written to Mary and told her we were coming home on the Westralia. She was down at the wharf to meet me but oh it was great. Mary was always there to see me of and well you know after not the not the first time but afterwards and then out to

Addison Road Marrickville, discharged and away you go.

Well they give you a complete medical and anything that that you think is pensionable you tell them and then that that goes on your record for later and if it crops up again then you can apply for a pension.

No no no they all this business they talk about the Vietnam blokes. We never worried about that. Get home and get out. I mean we were never welcomed home. We marched through Sydney once and we marched through Brisbane once but that was publicity for Australia but this business about the about the Vietnamese blokes coming home and not getting welcomed and that. They were involved in a war that was unnecessary and should never have been

there in the first place. I'm sorry for them. There was fine young men killed there but see like the Vietnamese today? What about Cabramatta and that place? God strewth. This lady down here, Miss Tran, she's marvellous she's a her family were very very high up in the old Vietnamese society. She speaks about seven languages and we we're friendly with her. That's where you're parked now

but she's as I said to Renee I said "All the Vietnamese are not like that" I said. "We need these boat people like we need a hole in the head." I said "All we're getting there is the rubbish." That may sound racist but there's a lot of truth in it.

Well oh yes of course. Of course yes. I mean you find it very difficult to have sensible conversations with people that hadn't been in the services 'cause they weren't interested and you weren't interested in what they'd been doing. No no I it's it makes a thing on you and then you settle down. You realise that you've got to get back and do what you've got to do. Make a living and which I

escaped to New Guinea and did.

Well my early my early days when I came back you see I went away again and I didn't become involved in any of the reunions until '62, '63 because I was away all the time. Anzac Day I'd be I was in New Guinea

but I was a member of the RSL [Returned Services League] up there and a member of we had quite a strong association but I did didn't get involved in that until '63, '64 when I came back here and then after that we I used to go every Anzac Day and we used to have a couple of lunches a year and all the ladies used to come along which we've now discontinued because it's getting too hard to

to organise these things and our numbers have decreased alarmingly and then I think I've been President now for fourteen years and I enjoy it. I enjoy it I do. I really do enjoy it because I'm younger than most of them and I can still raise the effort to do a bit of organising. I've got very very good blokes supporting me in the paper work and that and we've got plenty of money in the till.

The Treasurer said to me the other day "We've got enough left for seventeen years' lunches." That's a thousand dollars a time. I said "Who's going to be around then?" No it's it is. It's lovely to see them all again and as I say I was rear class with Cutler he was a great man and I used to look after him the last ten, twelve years when he came on Anzac Day and

Right.

Well I met a friend of mine in Sydney and he said that he'd was going up there and he'd got this job and he told me where to go to get the job and I went 'round there and got the job the next day and went to New Guinea in May 1948, which the work entailed me mechanical dredging it is.

It's one of the cheapest way of mining alluvial gold in the world. These dredges were built by the Ober Dredge Company in Colorado and brought out to Australia and flown in from Malay with the largest piece of metal you can just imagine the old air craft B-52s J Junket

29s three and a half tonne, picking that up and taking it up and never lost anything and I got there and then I went progressed very rapidly up to a shift boss and within two and a half years I was a dredge master. I had a sat I sat for my ticket and got it, which was a bit of a resentment some of the people had been there since the 1930s but they were lacking in ambition.

Then in 1953 I took a trip back to England and prior to going it was very cold in Sydney and I went 'round to Ansett and said "Was there any trip? Can you give me something to get away from this freezing weather?" Hayman Island forty three days fares included and everything for seven days. So I took off, went up to Hayman Island and was there for five days and it was boring me to tears

so I decided to leave two days early and Renee arrived the day before I left and we met and had a drink and a yarn and so forth and then she knew a lot of people that I knew in New Guinea so when I came back we renewed our acquaintance and two days two day a year later we were married and by that time and then eighteen months later Ruth was born up there and we left there

in 1960 and I went to Lae for a year and a half. I'd been offered a good job as manager of the Lae Club but Ruth developed bad kidney disease and it that entailed that she couldn't live up there anymore so we came back to Australia and I got in the motor business and was there with Capitol Motors for twenty three years and five years with Nissan motor company and here I am.

Vastly. Vastly.

Well in the time in New Guinea during the war you know there was thousands and thousands and thousands the same as you and you know food was a bit scarce and conditions were a bit difficult then when I went back after the war

the it was known as a company town by there was no private people living in the town and the it was the best of everything. The best of meat, the best all the grog you wanted and any old thing you know, which is a typical of American company mining towns. There was as I say I stayed there for eleven years and enjoyed every bit of it but now with the new conditions for the independence and everything the place has just deteriorated.

Too way too incredible backward. A little village up the top where all the big mining was in the '20s and the '30s called Wo there's only six whites live there now. Everybody else has disappeared because of the conditions and the native people are no better off. They're worse off actually when than in when the heyday of mining

was.

Yeah yeah yeah that was only about eighteen months before I left.

Managing the club. Yeah I enjoyed it but Lae is a terribly hot place. Renee hated it. No no I'm right. No I'm right. I'm right. Oh yes.

Well they the they'd sent out a brochure and said "You're time spent in the services and you know you're eligible for this. Do you want to go?" My name must have come out of a hat. So I went on that. There was a hundred and seventy eight altogether and

they chartered a ship, a Russian ship, and the Prime Minister came to see us off and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs was on the trip, Con Sciacca, and the Opposition, Wilson Tuckey, he was the Opposition Minister, and it was marvellous. It went from here, Sydney, to Brisbane.

Had a big reception at Eagle Farm Racecourse then to Moresby and they put a big reception for us at the High Commissioner's residence. No expense spared. A pilgrimage to the foot of the Owen Stanleys at Owen's Corner. That was for the X amount of people and the rest of us went to Bomana War Cemetery and I found the graves of all my comrades and a few more that I knew

and there from there to Milne Bay and all over the old battle ground. Saw all the old things. It's a very modern village town now then from there to Oro Bay, Popondetta and we flew into Kokoda, had four hours there and had a look 'round the place and the local villagers you can see in there put on a big a big song and dance

for us and then we had a a the big meeting at Popondetta which fifteen thousand people attended and that's I read the ode there and I met a couple of old natives that that had been in Billoa before the war.

“They shall grow not old as we that are” you know “left grow old. Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn. With the going down of the sun

and in the morning we will remember them.” You've heard that haven't you? I said it quite well too by the way and then from there back to Cairns and then they flew us back to Sydney. It was a very very well organised. Cost you taxpayers nine million dollars but Con Sciacca said he said "We'll take that out of the petty cash tin."

Ah really

was but what everybody was disappointed in like people like myself who had worked there after the war to see the deterioration and everything that we left. Like Lae itself was a beautiful had big roads and everywhere. When we went back there's potholes in the main roads as big as that seat there and where it used to take twenty minutes to go to Nadzab now takes two and a half hours. That's the main airport. Everything's been allowed to deteriorate.

The mismanagement is incredible. I felt I felt a when I come back I said to Renee I said "I feel really sad." I said "All the places that we knew where we used to live in and it's all gone." It's you know this it's misappropriation of money and the old what they call the one talk business. That means one talk is "You a friend" that's pidgin for friend.

Money goes to the Governor of X amount province. He gives it to his friends and half the people get nothing. We give them three hundred and eighty million a year. Not repayable. Not repayable.

How it's deteriorated, yes.

Oh yes completely. To me you know well everything 'cause nothing's the same. It's everything everything's deteriorated or at Milne Bay everything's brought up to scratch because they built they built away from the old capital they've moved it about ten mile up the coast, which is a much better place,

but seeing all the old places seeing Kokoda and and Popondetta and Dobadura and those places again was a bit sad but that's the way of life.

Oh yes. When I when I sent the they sent my they send your

passport in and birth certificate, which I did. Two days later I got word that I wasn't an Australian citizen and I said I rang back and I said "Well what about the my passport?" They said "Oh that doesn't mean anything. You've never been officially your certificate you've never been given a certificate." I said "Well there'd be quite a few people like that" and she said "Yes about a million and a half." So she said "Don't worry" she says "take all this stuff and this

letter up to a fella called Marshall at Immigration at Chatswood." I was in and out in ten minutes with my certificate of citizenship, which normally costs a hundred and fifty five dollars. They paid for it or you taxpayers paid for it. They apologised but according to the law that is it and there'd be more people in Australia now the same way. More all the time.

Well we all thought it humorous, actually. We all thought it was humorous. Con Sciacca said to me he said "Oh Charles" he says "not you too." I said "Yes, me too." I said "Are you an Australian citizen?" He come out here when he was three but my as I say Renee's mother and father, my brother and sister weren't citizens. Oh according to according to these rules no.

Oh yes I was a bit angry at the time but I thought service fought for the country for six years and then with a with a pa- passport issued in 19- 1953 and this comes up but no they were adamant. They said there was sixty seven out of a hundred and eighty seven. Sixty seven who were in the same boat.

No no love. Oh

no no no. That's all gone now because you see well on Anzac Day there's only about three of us left that were in the fighting at Milne Bay, like Johnny Firth's one, and you don't you know all it's been discussed so many times over and over. It's all gone. Lads. Finished. It's finished. Something might come up and you'll have a bit of a laugh about it or thinking something but

no. You don't hark back to those things. Fortunately we've lived you know we've lived most of our life away from it so it's all over.

No no. No. Just mention mentioned things that had happened when something came you know came up on Anzac Day or something like that. The boys, they're interested you know.

"What did you do?" and "Where were you?" and so forth and so forth but no you don't you don't sort of live in the past. No good living in the past. It's gone.

Oh no no no I mean you could talk about episodes with anybody if anybody asked you questions before but I've got a good a very very good memory as you can see and I can remember back to various episodes but unless you're asked the question it's practically irrelevant now. We did our share at the time and

as volunteers, not as conscripts, so that's it.

Mhm.

Oh it's marvellous. Like we had fifty eight marched. Out of that fifty eight there was forty one that were actually like me. Men who had been in the unit. The rest were relations. Grandsons and

daughters and sons. We have a lot of them to march now. It's yes it's good people you know you'll hear people singing out from the crowd that know you and I saw Dick Smith even, you know Dick Smith? I saw Dick and his wife at the march just and the little kids running out to shake your hand and that but it it's the numbers have decreased to an enormous degree an enormous

degree and it won't change. Can't change. Now we've got the RSL are crying out for numbers. Well we've got these young fellas from Vietnam and Timor and now this Iraq war and one of the fellows who carried our banner is the son of one of our late members, George, he came down specially from Timor.

He's a he's a police a sergeant in the police here in New South Wales and he volunteered for the United Nations thing in Timor and he came down to they had to bring somebody back and he volunteered for the job. He arrived in the morning with all his United Nations beret on and his medals and everything and, Wayne Friend, and you know it there was a little write up in the paper about it. "Oh Charles" he said "I couldn't miss this"

he said and he was going back that night to Timor. They're up there for six months at a time. No it's it gives you a bit of you know thing and you know people are very receptive you know. They give you a hand here. There's people I know along the way that sit in a special spot and I give them a wave.

Well you can't live in the past. It's sort of gone and to keep the friends that we made then sixty three years ago and are still around that's a great asset. It is, it's lovely but as for living in the past and saying "We should have done this" and "We should have done that" what's the use now? It's too far gone.

I never regret serving and as I say we were volunteers. I never regret serving and never regret meeting the people that I met and some of them are still alive today and maybe for another few years.

I think it's very important. I think it's very important to let young people know

what some people did to like the First World War, the Boer War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War what they did for the benefit of this country generally because this is a great country and nothing will ever change my opinion in that way and it was an honour for me to serve my country and I think the young people that that are interested. My boys have read regimental history and

I think it's important that those lads should know. See my grandson, Liam, he does all the bugling for the Mosman RSL and he does ours in at the cenotaph on the day before Anzac Day and he loved it. We gave him a money for it but he did he said "That's not that's not important Grandpa" he said. "I just like doing it" and so there you go.

Not really but to impress on the young people in this country the twenty year olds and eighteen year olds that are growing up now that for them they're going to be maybe called upon to defend this country some time in the near not in the near in the distant future I hope,

but to have respect for the themselves and the country itself and for all those who served and those who lost their lives. That's about all I can say about that.

Good.

And it's been an extreme pleasure to have you both here. Thank you.

Good.