Australians at War Film Archive

I was born on the 3rd of January 1931 in a house, in, Newport, Victoria. We went to live in Hawthorn when I was 18 months old and from there, I joined the army. But, I went to school at,

Glenferrie State School, number 1508. And, I became dux of the school there and I always wanted to get into electronics and, I went to Swinburne Technical College as it was named then, and did electrical engineering. But, I gave that away, and I got an itch for wanting to join the army.

And, when I left school, I went to Yallourn where the State Electricity Commission was, and I got a job down there digging trenches. Because I was a skinny kid. And, I would have had to build my body up enough to join the army. Which I duly did after six months and, then joined the army. And, when I come home, came home, my mother was living in, Parkdale, Victoria

and, strangely enough my wife was born in the next street, which I wouldn’t have known anything about obviously. And from there I remained in the army anyhow for sixteen years. And, is there anything else you want to know?

Right. I was posted to Japan on at the end of my recruit training at Puckapunyal in Victoria. And I went to Japan in November, with, a few other guys and we were part of the Commonwealth Occupation Force. I was posted immediately I hit Japan to, Tokyo, to the British Commonwealth Sub-Area

Tokyo, it was called I think. And there I stayed as, a clerk, until the Korean War started in June ’50. And, they called for volunteers throughout different areas of Japan, because our Battalion 3 RAR [3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment] was stationed at Hiro, down south near Kure in, Hiroshima. And,

I volunteered and so did another guy, and we were the only two I’m pretty sure from Tokyo that, volunteered. And, we went down and joined 3 Battalion in, July August, I think it was, July or August I’m not sure which. Because we sailed in late September for Korea. And I was allocated to the Signal Platoon because,

this mate of mine was an ex-World War II guy and he said, “I think we’ll go in the sigs.” because he was a sig before and I said, “Yeah okay,” and, I said, “That interests me.” And, about two and a half weeks before, we were due to sail I was unloading Second World War equipment from a truck, and it was very musty and smelly and I had an attack of asthma.

So I was put in hospital, in Japan, in Kure, at the, BCOF [British Commonwealth Occupation Force] Base Hospital for two weeks. And then one Sunday morning a nurse came and slapped me on the backside and said, “Come on up you get, you’re going to Korea with the Battalion.” I said, “Good,” so, that was that. And I went back and joined the Battalion but we did training, up at a place called Haramura. Now Haramura was out of,

earshot of, Kure and Hiro, and it was a mountainous area and, it was quite similar in fact to Korea because Korea was nothing but mountains, hills and mountains. And, we did some training there and then back to Japan, back to, sorry, to Hiro. We left on the 27th of September,

and got on board the U.S., ship, U.S.S., what was it called? The Aiken Victory. A-I-K-E-N Victory. And, as a Battalion en masse, the whole lot of us. We said goodbye to people who were down on the wharf and blah blah blah and there was one lady who was in charge of the Red Cross at Hiro, at the hospital. And I heard her yell out,

“There’s George!” And I looked … (interruption)

Yes and, Miss Lorna Robinson her name was. She was in charge of Red Cross at the British Commonwealth Occupation Force Hospital. And, she was waving and I was up on deck somewhere waving to her. And, I met her again when I was evacuated back to Japan. But, that’s another story I guess. And so we went off to

Korea, in darkness at night. We landed the next morning at, Pusan, which is the main sea port of Kor- of Korea. There was an American band marching up and down on the wharf playing Saint Louis Blues. There were, young, Korean girls in their national dress which is very pretty indeed. And, our commanding officer, late commanding officer, Colonel

Charlie Green was down on the wharf. He’d come on board the ship to meet us. And, at the time, Pusan was the filthiest and smelliest place I have ever, been to. It was awful. But of course now it’s high-rise and you name it, it’s all, all modern. And that’s where the, United Nations cemetery is now. Pusan, yeah. And from there we went up to Taegu,

because at the time, the North Koreans had come down in their advance South, and they were in the, area of what was called the Pusan perimeter. Which, the northerly, point was, Taegu, which has had a change of name too, they change their names so often. And,

then MacArthur had already made a, beach landing, an amphibious landing at, Inchon, which is the international airport site now in Korea. And, cornered them and, then we went on and on and on and on, right up through North Korea up to just nearly, to the Yalu River, which is the river separating China from North

Korea and Russia. And, then China came into it and ‘bang’, we were, not chased out, we, had a withdrawal. But some of us said “It’s not a withdrawal we’re advancing in the other direction.” But I can tell you lots of, lots of things about going through North Korea.

Okay, mm.

Well, we were up, at Pakchon, we went to Pakchon and, Chongju. Chongju was where our commanding officer was killed. And, the American, I’m not sure

which division it was but, might have been the 24th Division, which we were attached to, had to withdraw, and, there had to be a rearguard action. And the rearguard action, to allow the Division to get through, was done by our brigade, Commonwealth, 27th Commonwealth Brigade, comprising the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders and the Middlesex Regiment. Bit of a pun there on the Middlesex.

We’d always say, “Huh, they’re not men they’re not women, what are they? Middlesex.” And, we had to fight the rearguard action and last out, was, 3 Battalion, our Battalion. And amassed on the border and in Korea, and they’d been there a little while just waiting the mongrels, were the Chinese, anything up to 800,000 of them. And we were a Battalion of about 7 to 800. Yeah.

So we scooted off through there and, back to Pakchon and then it eventually, snow set in and, back we went, down through, into South Korea and down because they followed down the Chinese and they overtook Seoul. Seoul, once again. And it was about the third time it had been occupied. Originally, the North Koreans marched and took it within two days.

Then we, the United Nations troops, took it back. Then the Chinese overtook it and then later it was taken back again by us. Yeah. So, that rearguard action was, something that upset a lot of guys but, it was okay because we got out okay. Yeah. Hm.

I came home in 1952, February 1952. Strangely enough on a British troop ship. Which was called the Devonshire, and it was manned by Royal Air Force guys, the crew. Royal Air Force guys on a on a British ship yeah. And the

lackeys were, Lascars, Indian, or, I think they were Indian anyhow, labourers. So that took a couple of weeks and it was quite pleasant coming home, on that. Lying on the decks and, what have you. And, we pulled in at Manus Island, north of New Guinea, where there were a lot Japanese prisoners, incarcerated and, you’d see them, the natives

there had orange hair. Yeah they used to dye it with coconut oil or something. And, then home to Sydney. And, off the ship in Sydney. I’ve got a photo actually of, that my mother kept from the newspaper. And, then, home to Melbourne, on the train from Sydney. Hm.

Sixteen years.

Yeah, well. When I came home, I was posted to, Kapooka, to the Recruit Training Battalion there as a clerk. And a Corporal clerk. And I went to do a secretarial course or clerk’s, senior clerk’s course,

at Puckapunyal and I qualified in that. Which qualified me to become a senior clerk. And, from there I was posted to Tasmania and made Sergeant, with the, it was a CMF [Citizen Military Forces] unit in those days, it was called CMF. Citizens’ Military Forces. And, I quite enjoyed that. I was there about 12 months and then I got posted back to Puckapunyal

as an instructor, of clerical, work. Then, I was posted, oh gosh look I can’t remember them all. I was posted 29 times. All over the place. But included in the, postings was one to Maralinga, the atomic range. Hm. I was there for 12 months and, it was quite interesting. Yeah. Saw four detonations.

One from 20 miles. You had to turn around, you could feel the heat on the back of the neck. And you weren’t allowed to watch the flash you know, as the fireball goes up. That was the first one and then the remaining three were a mile and a half away. What’s that? Two K’s? Something like that. And, oh it’s awesome, to turn around. You get the countdown, 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1,

zero, turn, and you could turn around and have a look and just then you see the fireball coming up from the mushroom. And Ground Zero, because they were aluminium towers, they were completely disintegrated or melted, you know, and fused in with the sand to form a skating rink. But you couldn’t go there. You, that was Ground Zero, you had to be a boffin, scientist to go there but, we weren’t too keen on

going there anyhow. And, not too far away from that Ground Zero there was a large centurion tank, used in the tests and it had been blown over by the blast. Ohh. And, at night there was one, detonated and it could be seen from a radius of 600 miles. Yeah. So anyhow after that I just got, I moved around and around and around and,

then, Vietnam came up and, I was to go to Vietnam and I was medically examined and downgraded as unfit for tropical service because of, dermatitis which I collected in Korea. And, then they had a witch-hunt in the army and I was downgraded to Class 4 and discharged on medical grounds as, unfit for further military service. Later,

actually in about 1990 I was made TPI, which is Totally and Permanently Incapacitated. And, that was that. All right? Hm.

Am I getting ahead of you?

My childhood.

All right.

Well Hawthorn was, wonderful. And, oh, I was so sentimental about Hawthorn and, right from an early age, with my mates from school primary school we’d go to the football every Saturday and watch Hawthorn. And in those years they couldn’t win a match.

I think they went for about 50 or 60 games matches without winning one. And, it it was great. I was always a skinny kid and I did have asthma, when I was younger. But when I was 14 it somehow seemed to leave me. And I was pretty right after that, until that time in Japan. And it came back on me. Hm. And then it came back on me again in Korea

because, the dust, all the roads were dirt roads and, this is not too nice but I’ll tell you if you want me to. The North Koreans used human excrement for fertiliser on their rice paddy fields. And they would build it up, and, keep it in their yard or area. And, in the summertime with the hot winds and what have you, it

would mix with the dust and, it was nothing to swallow some of that and that’s how I came to get asthma very badly, after thereafter. But, I was pretty right I suppose as a kid and played a bit of football and, enjoyed it. My father, was a very sick man and he died, at

46 I think. Thereabouts, or 44. No he must have been about 46 I think. He died with pneumonia. And he died, on New Year’s Day. I was 12 and he was buried on my 13th birthday which was two days later. Hm. So my mother, worked hard and, we got by and,

I’m one of five. I had two brothers and two sisters and I was the youngest. My eldest brother and the other brother were both in during the Second World War. The eldest, or the elder of the two, he, he went right through the Middle East, New Guinea twice and Borneo. And the other brother, I think he went through New Guinea and Borneo. But Ken, the eldest brother, he was my inspiration

for joining the army. He, went missing off the Kokoda Track, for six months in the jungle. He and another guy and they were found eventually by natives and cared for. And, he, he was just a skeleton when he came out of that of course. But the natives helped fatten him up a bit. And that was, the Second 14th Battalion which was commonly called the Ghost

Battalion. And, very well known Battalion too you know. I think that might have been my inspiration. He might have been my inspiration. And the fact that Max the other brother was in the army too. Yeah. So, I thought I’ll do the hat trick. And I don’t think Mum was too happy about it. She said, “I’ve been through the war with two and, now you’re wanting to join the army.” But there was no war on then. It was just a trip to Japan.

And, what I thought might be a holiday. But, of course the Korean War broke out while we were in Japan. And, I wasn’t home to console Mum. And, but you know we talked about it when I came home but not in great detail or in depth. Mm.

Yes I remember it very clearly. I, at the time, would have been eight.

And we were sitting in the lounge room, listening to the radio, to a serial on a Sunday night.

Oh, gosh. Might have been, The Phantom Drummer or, or something, I’m blowed if I know. And, they interrupted it for a special announcement and it was the Prime Minister, Robert Menzies. He said, “It is my melancholy duty to inform you, that Germany has declared war on Poland blah blah… and as a

consequence, Britain has now declared war on Germany as as a consequence, we in Australia are also at war with Germany…” I remember that very very clearly. Of course after that they, all the troops started joining up. But my, my brother Ken he, he was already in the militia. And, that was part time, you know. But, he joined the army and went to the Middle

East, hmm.

I just don’t remember, actually. The reaction well I suppose there was a lot of , “Oh no, not another war.” Oh no, because, you see, ’39, 1939, was only, 21 years after the other one. And then Korea was five years later.

And then five years, or six years after that, came Vietnam. They haven’t stopped since.

Yeah.

Oh. Maybe I’ve always had a little part of my brain, lying dormant, for

history. I was always mad on history. And, that may be it. Or on the other hand, with some of the war films and, Australians At war, they showed a flash of Menzies broadcasting that. And I’ve got a copy of that speech in, some of my history books there. But, I always remember that and when I read it I think back to, when it was

announced. On a, twiddle twiddle, radio. Mm.

I didn’t quite understand it, I think my father might have tried to,

tell me about it. But, I just, can’t remember too much more than that, speech. And, how it upset everyone in the room, of course. And the family.

In World War I, my father, was unfit for service. My mother would have been

17 when it started. I just don’t know, and, I had an uncle killed at Gallipoli. But, no I just can’t remember what their reaction might have been. Put it that way, in World War I.

Yeah I think it might have been, looking in the papers and, my brother Ken going off to the Middle East.

When he joined up?

Oh. The other brother, he wanted to join then. And he was too young. And Mum was always going crook at him and in the end

she signed the papers. And off he went. But he went to Darwin first of all. Which, wasn’t so bad. But bad enough I guess. I don’t know it’s, it’s a bit hard to remember everything from way back then but, quite a few little things that, give me a bit of a ‘ping’ now and then. Yeah. But during the Second World War he, my father

was working and then he got sick and then he died but that was, I think 1944, he died, which would have made him, 48. He was born in 1896, yeah he must have been 48 when he died. But, Mum was always out working and, my two sisters and myself would be, doing this and doing that in, around the home. And my brother’s

girlfriend at the time, who he ended up marrying, she would always come in on a Friday night and cook dinner for us. And, oh it was lovely. Of course the worse part was getting the news. I think Mum got a telegram about Ken, missing in action believed killed. And, of course that upset everything you know. And we got word from him that he alive before we did from the Government.

I’m just trying to picture this now. Forty-four, yeah I think Dad was alive. Yeah, I think. And of course this, this might have hit him pretty hard too, because he, he went downhill and he was working in a factory that was full of dust and muck and, yeah.

Yeah I think he was alive, then. And, ‘cause I can remember Ken coming home on leave, which might have been after that. No wait on. Ken was married in ’44, on the 1st of April. And, Dad died on the 1st of

January, in that year, I’m pretty sure. That’s how it worked out. So, I don’t know that he was alive when Ken came home. Unless he was alive when Ken came home, the first time from New Guinea. Yeah I’m a bit vague on, on those things.

Oh gosh yeah, yeah too

right.

Oh yeah. Yeah it was great stuff. Yeah my word. Mm. And, he, he would send me, little bits and pieces as a, present. Like he sent me an Egyptian hat from the Middle East and, oh, a belt, a few other things and I was quite proud to wear them to school you know I … mm.

Oh yeah, Mum had her, her card for, food rationing you know like so many teas so much coffee, so much butter and eggs and milk and all the rest of it. She had that. And, well from my, memory of it we never starved. We we,

we always, managed. Yeah. And, I found, and I’ve still got it somewhere, a card of hers where she’d been paying, so much a week towards her funeral. Yeah. Well it it, fizzled out, eventually and, it was never, kept up and knew nothing about it but when she died, we found it. Mm.

She was a very hard working woman.

She worked in a café in Swanston Street Melbourne, called The Criterion. And many artists used to go in there and have their meals and she was a waitress there. And one was an entertainer wrestler called, Chief

Little Wolf. Don’t know if you ever heard of him but he’s been dead for a long time. Although his daughter has been on TV as a singer. I can’t think of, what her right name was but she always put Little Wolf after her name. And he used to come in and order a pound of butter, so Mum tells us, told us. And sit down and, get through a pound of butter on a plate, that was his meal. Make his skin greasy you see so the other guys would slip on.

Hm. Chief Little Wolf. Don’t know if he even was an Indian I think that was a gimmick. Yeah.

Oh no. No. To get in there, had to get a tram and it would have cost about a penny then or something, tuppence, twopence. And, I don’t know whatever happened to the place. But it might have become a Tarax bar.

Remember a soft drink called Tarax? And you could go in there and get a big pot of ice cold, pineapple or something, for four pence. And I think that took over that particular café. Or it might be a café again now who knows? The way cafes, continue or, get bigger, better. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh they were good and, I was a pretty keen student too. The teachers were, oh they were good guys I reckon. The headmaster he he was a good guy although he gave me six of the best one day. For, doing this with a soldering iron in sheet metal work and, he came through the door and caught me. Wow. Pow.

Yeah. Old Tommy White his name was, hm. That, I mentioned to you I got dux of the school at primary school. My prize for that, pardon me, was a cheque for 3 pounds 17 and sixpence which would be, 7 dollars 75. Yeah. And it was,

given to me by, an estate agent. I had to go up and get presented with it, on the stage, at the school. And, my mother had been to the Victoria Market to get me a pair of pants, to wear. And, it turned out they were, they were too small for me and I had to wear another pair. And, I tore the backside out of them. And up I went, holding, trying to hold the, or cover up the hole in the back of them, hm.

Yeah. She was quite proud of that. I remember riding the bike, my bike, home from school when I was told that I’d come, become dux of the school I raced home on the bike and told her. Oh, she was elated. And straight back to school, into a classroom again and on with everything. Yeah.

Mm.

Oh, looked after me, oh yeah yeah. Actually, I had the nickname of Bull, from my brothers. And, my family nickname was Pep, P-E-P. And that went back to before I was born apparently. Because someone said, your mother’s going to have a little, peppy Hector. I don’t

know, that must have been a favourite book of kids in those days. And, that’s when they, when I was born they started calling me Pep. And never in my life, have I ever been called George by any of my family. Never. And it’s getting a bit late now, I don’t think they’ll change. ‘Cause I’m 72. And I’m the youngest. The eldest Ken he’s 83 I think. And, he’s not the best.

He’s on Phillip Island. Yeah. Max is dead, the second brother. The eldest, or the elder of the girls, June, she’s dead so there’re three of us, left now out of five, hm.

The first, the Second World War you mean?

Oh right. Well, we were all a group

then of, 13, 14-year-olders I guess. And, there used to be a big, do on in Melbourne where everyone gets out in the street and cheers and kisses each other and, ‘course we were in our first long pants and in we went as, viewers and, had a great time. Thought it was great.

Oh gee. It it’s hard to describe the, paper getting thrown out of the windows,

whistles blowing and, people standing in groups and dancing. Just, everyone was over the top. Yeah.

No it was a celebration for the end of the war that’s the way I looked at it anyhow. And, I would never see another one like it. Didn’t, didn’t see anything like that for Korea I can assure you.

Yeah. Well, of course Australia was threatened because of that Second World War and, actually a lot of people say, the Americans saved Australia well, I’ll go along with that. But, a lot of it can be, attributed to the Second 14th Battalion, my brother’s Battalion, and the Kokoda Track, where they stopped

the Japanese. And it was so bad for the Japanese there that they reverted to cannibalism ‘cause they didn’t, didn’t have food and, they were just dropping like flies and easy prey. Yeah. And that stopped them coming right through down to, Port Moresby.

Oh well, different things you’d hear on the radio and,

you’d say, gee I wonder, are they going to get here? Will they get here and, no no and, of course. I don’t believe there was very much said to us at school, about it. But I thought I saw a photo of my brother on board a ship somewhere in, over the other side in the Middle East and, heading for Greece I think. And I took that out of the paper and took it to school and I said I thought it was him but it wasn’t because he didn’t go to Greece

and, yeah. Oh it was something that would be on the mind all the time I guess. And of course you’d go to the movies and there you’d see Gung Ho and, all the rest of it and, wow. But it was very far-fetched. The movies. I used to love the American marine movies you know, From Guadalcanal and all that sort of

jazz and, yeah the old Gung Ho.

No, no. Oh the younger of two, Max he, he’d open up a bit he, he thought it was great stuff and he, brought a Japanese officer’s sword home and, I don’t even know what happened to that but, he was a bit of a larrikin. Ken, he didn’t tell us much at all the elder.

Oh. I think it’s it’s something that, that happens with an ex-serviceman, or a, someone who’s been in a war. But the point is, they can talk to their mates about it on Anzac Day. And, re-live it. But they can’t re-live it if they’re talking to their family, about it. And the family, I believe, this is my assumption,

would find it hard to understand because, obviously they weren’t there. But, on Anzac Day with their mates they get together and, you know, dodging bullets and bombs and what have you. And, this could have some bearing on why, they don’t say much to their families. But, something like this is good because, when I go to that big parade ground in the sky, this’ll

be there for posterity won’t it? Yeah. My, eldest son, sorry the second eldest son, he, he’s often asked me this and asked me that and I’ve told him a few things but, in fact I’ve told you more than I’ve him as a matter of fact.

The only time I ever, heard anything about Communism, and didn’t even know a thing about it it was when I was a young kid,

and, we had people living next door to us who were Communists. And my father, was dead set against them, and if my brother wore a red tie he’d make him take it off. Yeah. It was, such that, Dad was very anti-Communist, or Communism.

I don’t know. It’s, it, well, he

used to say, “Those so and so Bolsheviks,” now I think he’s going back to the Russian Revolution, talking like that. And, I don’t, I just don’t know but that’s all, that’s just, my thought on the matter. And, me, as a knowledgeable person on Communism, you can wipe that because I wouldn’t have had a clue. In fact when the Korean War broke out and we

were told, that we were going there, we had to volunteer incidentally, I said, “Where’s Korea? “ No one knew. “Oh it’s next door, to Japan”. But, didn’t know, didn’t have a clue where Korea was. Just straight across the Japan Sea. Communism no, it didn’t, didn’t enter my head.

Apart from I think, we might have known a little bit about the Communist insurgence in Malaya. Which was in ’48 I think, in ’49. Might have known a little bit about that. But not, not to any great extent, no. So we were told that, North Korea, Communists, had,

marched on South Korea. And, I think we might have been told that Russia, North Korea and China were all Communist countries. And North Korea was a, Communist state. And, it still is. China doesn’t worry about Communism much, and Russia is finished with it. So they’re they’re nothing but a rat-bag riddled state North Korea. Yeah I’ve got

more to tell you on that after.

Yeah.

Oh we weren’t an affluent society. In those days kids didn’t get around on, they were lucky to get around on a pushbike.

Didn’t have scooters much. The public, the population didn’t change much, for the, let’s say, oh how can I put it? They didn’t gain any anything from that war except peace. And, the boys were coming and this was the big, the big thing. And,

they had to find jobs for them but fortunately, jobs were there. And it was a matter of getting back on, on their feet. And, clothing, became, off the ration list and so did food and, all those things were, put aside and, mm. But it was still the days of Mum being at home.

But just after the war, mostly but my Mum wasn’t at home, but many of the mums were at home, and, yeah. But nowadays of course it’s, both Mum and Dad working. That’s, completely different new era new way of life.

Well, I did because mine was about the only one that worked. Yeah.

But then again I was the only one without a father. All the others had, both parents.

No we all just got along fine. I can recall, the morning after my father died they came up the front gate on their bikes and, called out to me and I went to the gate and I said, “I can’t come out my father died last night.” “Oh,”

and they got on the bikes and went for their lives. Yeah. Yeah. I can’t say much more I don’t think about the days of my, my youth. Except that I fell in love when I was eighteen with a girl, and I thought, “This is the one.” Went to Korea

and I’d write very chance, Japan and Korea every chance I got I wrote her a letter. And what do you reckon? She married the postman. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No no that’s a bit of a porky.

Oh yeah she wrote me a letter I knew the bloke

she married and he was a good guy too. And she said, “I’m very, very happy,” and I said, “Oh well there’s one less letter I have to write.” Yeah.

Mm?

She worked in the milk bar and I used to go there on a Friday night and sit and, just look at her you know and, get the courage to take her home and walk her home and it was miles, you know and we’d walk home and, yeah. Her name was Betty

Smith and she married a guy named Bill Smith.

Eh?

No, no.

Yeah.

Oh gee. I must have been 12, 30, 40, ’43, ’42? I think, I’m not sure. I was 12. I

mightn’t have been 12. Just turned 12. Yeah I think 12, ’31, 30, ’43? Thereabouts yeah. And, yeah went though it all I remember one result in one exam. I got a 100 per cent in maths. Oh, I was round the world on that I thought that was great. And then, another time I got a 100 per cent on technical

drawing. I thought, “Oh this is great stuff.” Yeah. Swinburne it’s a university now. You know it do you? Eh? How come?

Beg pardon?

Oh did you?

I couldn’t even tell you if it’s still there in Hawthorn. I guess it would

be. Near the Glenferrie Railway Station. You know Old Swinnie, yeah.

Oh I didn’t ,I got up to, intermediate standard which was pretty good in those days and, then in the army I went on for leaving. And, that was the army first class certificate of education. And,

I didn’t matriculate as it would have been. But, anyhow it was hard enough on Mum at the time and, she was quite happy and proud of me and, yeah. So that’s how it went.

The, what I said, the, SEC [State Electricity Commission]? No no, wait on. I worked

in a pottery... Yeah I wanted to learn pottery too oh I was a bit ambitious in lots of things. And, because I can remember, working in this pottery and, just around the corner, double-decker busloads of ex-prisoners of war were coming home. And they were out there waving and what have you, and, that must have been ’45. Late ’45 and then,

oh I stayed on there for a while. Then worked for the SEC for a while. As I said, building up, the body. Yeah.

Oh for the SEC for laying pipes and, lines and what have you. Yeah. I guess it was yeah.

Oh yeah it wasn’t bad.

You weren’t in, digging a trench all the time, you were sometimes up on top, shovelling the dirt back away from the edge to so so the bloke down below wouldn’t get covered in dirt. And, at the time they were, I think they were putting power lines through all the houses because we were going through the back of houses and making a mess of them.

Oh yeah I thought it’d be good.

I reckoned it’d be good. Oh yeah, I’d get away to Japan too. I’ll go overseas. Well I did.

Oh yeah, it was there was a seed sown there, self-sown. And, yep.

I might’ve, I can’t remember actually. Mum would’ve, oh yeah she would’ve

said to them, what about it? And I think Ken would’ve said, oh let him go, can’t do any harm he’s only going to Japan. Mm. Yeah. Then the, bubble burst, after, how long was I there? About eight months. And then the Korean thing started.

19th of July 1949, yeah.

Yeah went to Royal Park, which was the Army Recruitment Depot. And from there I went to Puckapunyal to do my recruit training which was three months.

Just walk in and say, “I want to join the army,” “Okay, fill the form in”. And, “How hold are you?” “18.” “Take it home, get your mother to verify your age and

get your birth certificate and blah blah blah.” And, I got an extract of entry which was okay then but I think nowadays you’ve got to get, a proper birth certificate I think. So, got all that, got it all together and went back in with and, then I had to wait, I think, for notification of going in for my medical examination.

They check tattoos, scars, family history of this that and the other. “Ever been in jail?” And oh, God. I’ve got a scar here, I don’t know if you can see it. Well that happened when I was a little kid I cracked it on a concrete pillar. And, I,

it was just a normal medical you know as they go and they check you on the chest and any broken bones? “Ever been to hospital? Blah blah blah.” And then, a rubber stamp, “A-1” fit for service. Okay. And, what happened then, maybe, in a day or two, we were, we were kitted out. And then told we were going up to Puckapunyal to do our recruit training.

Oh.

Oh yeah it was old stuff too right. In fact, I, was issued with a tunic from World War I. Oh, I hate …

Something like the World War II except it had big flabby pockets sticking out here. And World War II didn’t have those flabby pockets. They didn’t show a pocket, just, the flap, over the. Yeah, so, the end of, the

recruit training we were, interviewed by a, what do they call him? Not an employment officer, similar type thing. Doesn’t matter. But anyhow. His name was Bird, Major Bird and he said, “Well you’re going to Japan that’ll be all right. And, do you want to drive a tank?” I said, “No thanks.” He said,

“Okay, you can go to Japan.” Old Dickie Bird, and what do you reckon the guy in Japan, who was in charge of postings, the Postings Officer that’s what, his name was Bird too. He was another Dickie Bird. Yeah. But they were not related no.

Oh. Stinking hot in the summer. We lived in, tin huts which were used during the

Second World War for troops doing training. We had a canteen there where you could go and buy beer and, there was a picture theatre and, plenty of drill and, work on the rifle range and, tactics, oh, it was all. Yeah.

Oh God. Yeah. This is what it’s like, ohh. But that, that was the first impression you know but after a while you got used to it and then you wanted to excel.

Oh yeah, pretty, pretty strenuous yeah the whole, pretty hard. Played a bit of football and, that was good, yeah. But, you kept fit, by gee you did.

Oh well we had our, physical, you know, and all that sort of thing, exercises. Physical education that was all part of it. And, to build you up to be a fit soldier, yeah. It all happened and we were. There were a few rebels there who’d buy bottles of wine and, hide them under

their mattress and what have you and they were, they were hopeless. But it was good, mm. I palled up with a young bloke I, went right through with him up to Japan and he didn’t go to Korea but, he lived in Victoria too and, he, he was a good guy. He came from an exceptionally good family and, we got along together extra well rather than, you know, worrying about ratbags.

Three months. Yeah. Yeah and, flew to Japan. That’s where I met that, Miss Robinson, from the Red Cross. She was on the plane with me, or I was on the plane with her, and she was returning to Japan after having come back to Australia for leave.

Yeah she probably did you know and, you don’t do this and you don’t do that and, I’ll be there if you need me, sort of thing and she was a lovely woman.

She’d probably be dead by now.

Well the not to do was, the obvious. Fraternise.

Oh, did they ever, yeah.

Films.

Oh yes, some of the films were grrrr.

Filthy films, of, prostitutes and, how they were, loaded, with venereal disease and, yes soldier, you know this one you’ve been out with her soldier and oh, it was shocking. One bloke was

vomiting his, his stomach up and then they showed us, before we went to Korea they showed us one, that one incidentally about the prostitutes and what have was shown when I landed in Japan but the one about the frostbite, was shown before to us all before we went to Korea. Blokes having their toes taken off. But, like, putting a pair of pliers and just, pulling it out, pulling them out like that. Oh that’s shocking that

frostbite. Yeah, the things you can do you know, you can go to the, beer halls if you want to. But, just be careful and don’t pick any fights and don’t abuse the Americans. Don’t pick fights with them. Just be careful where you where you go and don’t go down any alleyways and what have you and, on your own. It’s all right it’s safety in numbers.

What we used to do was, wait, for a a Papa-san, we’d always call the old boys Papa-san, and, he’d be, walking along, behind his wife, and she’d be carrying all the load on her back. And he’d be behind her, not carrying anything. So we’d sneak out and we’d kick him in the backside and take it off the wife and put it on his back and then kick him again and make him,

chuff off with, with it on his back. But of course later on he’d take it off and put it back at, on old Mama’s back. Oh, lots of funny things went on there.

Oh yeah I suppose so. Yeah I certainly took note of them, yeah. They were, pretty gruesome. And, at the time I didn’t know

much about I was pretty naïve I guess. There’s the postie, yeah. But, oh, one, in particular, they said, “Yes soldier you’ve been out with her haven’t you?” And, do you want me to tell, her name? Big Tits Betty. “You’ve been out with Big Tits Betty haven’t you?” And oh, she was an ugly looking

thing. And, there was one beer hall in Japan, where, you could go and pick a girl up and, I got the word, not to go in there, or not to pick up a girl in there, and we passed this information on to a, few of them, you know and, one bloke was going down there on his own and, said, “Oh, look, you’ll see…”

I’ll call her Sumi if you like, “Sumi-san she, she’s a good sort.” And, he went in and sat next to her and she started, stroking his hair and all this sort of thing and, ‘course his, hand started wandering, and then he let out a yell. It was a man. Yeah she was, he was dressed up as a woman. That was quite a, joke you know, we set it up.

Says he as an 18 year old. Yeah.

From Sydney, yeah. By train, from Spencer Street Station to Sydney Central. And from there, we went to, the

depot which was called Marrickville. And we just, waited there, until, there was a suitable flight. It was an old Dakota DC3 Mark 4 I know all about them, pardon me, because I used to jump out of them. With a parachute I might add. Yeah, it was, it was a bit of a wait there so, this mate of mine and myself, we went, looking around Sydney and under the

bridge and Luna Park and, jumping on and off the trams and hanging off the side of trams it was great fun, yeah. But I wouldn’t like to live in Sydney, I don’t think. Not now anyhow it’s too, too fast, and I’m too old. Too slow.

In Japan?

Well, when Dickie Bird the second interviewed me, he said, “Show me your handwriting,” and I wrote something down and he said, “Okay, I’ve got just the job for you in Tokyo, as a clerk, at the headquarters there.” And, “Oh okay.” So, I went there and there was a grumpy old sergeant in charge of the office I was, put to. And, he, didn’t like me knowing too

much you see so, he would try and do everything and then he’d complain he had too much to do. And I remember a captain saying to him, “Well you’ve got George there, you know.” And, oh he used to, “Do this and do that.” I can even remember, one particular file, it was 367 point 172, that was the number of the file. Yeah.

What, what’s this? Oh look at those people over there. You know they were just shuffling along, still in their national clothing. ‘Cause they didn’t go, down South they didn’t go European so much too much in the… when I landed there, but in Tokyo they were just starting to, because of the American influence. And,

I wondered about them and I thought, “Gee, how do they get on?” And then I spotted, in, oh when I went to Tokyo, I spotted some Japanese ex-servicemen, they were getting around in white suits, and they were begging. With the hat, you know? Because they didn’t have a repatriation system. And some were getting around with long chopsticks,

picking up cigarette butts and putting them in a bag. They would take them to a cigarette place and they would be broken up and made into, cigarettes, put in a packet and the name of the brand was Peace, P-E-A-C-E. With a dove of peace on the, on the packet. And they were sold on the Japanese market. But cigarettes were a big thing with the Japanese they would buy American cigarettes. As many as they could get. That is the black marketeers,

yeah. But we weren’t allowed the black market of course. Yeah.

Yeah, poverty. Down South they were living in little, what we called hoochies, little huts, you know and, in Tokyo, I was amazed to see them living in cardboard cartons. Along,

the gullies, what do you call them? The channels, where the, sewerage would flow through, and all that jazz, oh, they were living in these cardboard cartons put together. From, they’d got from the Americans, yeah. I thought, “Oh, this is awful.” But, some of the girls of course were, all done up like dollies because they had Yankee boyfriends and, always

had a pocket full of money and, oh. Tokyo was a place though. You you couldn’t walk from here to the front, to the letterbox without, being accosted. And, they’d say, you nice boy and all this sort of thing and oh, get out. We used to get up on top of a building we’d go and get a hundred Yen in one Yen notes, and throw

them out and watch them, down there all, scattering. ‘Cause one Yen was useless. Oh I did some awful things. Yeah. Beer halls they were good, yeah. And …

Well you’d just go in there and sit down at a table and, give the girl an order and she’d come over with the beer pots and you’d pay her and, then she’d say, “You want to, have your photo taken with me sitting on your knee?” And, “Oh yeah,” you know after a few beers and,

you’d always pick the good looking ones to sit on your knee, take photos and, the Yanks would come over and want to sit with us and put our hats on. ‘Cause they reckoned they were great, the slouch hats, yeah.

Why? Well, because it looks like a cowboy hat I guess. Yeah. Oh they reckoned the Aussie hats were the greatest in fact I’ve got an order now, for one, for a guy in America in Indiana he wants me to send him one.

I don’t know where I’m going to get it though. He, he sent me some badges and this is, this and that and, what have you and, he said, “I still want that hat though.”

All right. Yeah. Yeah we got on all right. You see when they were in Australia the big problem was they were taking the girlfriends away from our guys and, there was a big do up in Brisbane as you may well know. But over there it was all right and,

even in Korea, except, they were always bugging out and leaving us for dead. Well not always but, you know, but that was one of the things that would happen. But otherwise, flog stuff off and get a bottle of whiskey off them but, I didn’t drink whiskey I’d drink beer. But

I don’t know. The Japanese were, the Japanese were well in with the Americans I’d say because, General MacArthur, his influence was just dramatic, all over Japan I mean he, he’s the one who got Japan back on its feet. Oh yeah, too right. He was the Supreme Commander of the, Allied

Forces in Japan. Allied Powers. SCAP they used to call him, Supreme Commander of Allied Powers. And, all the Americans had their girls and they, had them dollied up and they had them with these, bobbysocks shoes on, two-tone, shoes and, like you see in that film Grease? Yeah. Had them done up like that and, they used to think they were great and they were important because they were

hanging on the arm of an American soldier. But the Aussie bloke never worried about that I think, a lot of Aussies had girlfriends but, they’d just go to their, their house and, stay there, wouldn’t, wouldn’t be out on the street. We weren’t allowed to fraternise. Yeah.

Oh yeah, sure. In fact, one guy, I’ve never met him but I know of him and I’ve spoken to him,

he, he married a Japanese girl and, her name was Cherry. Cherry, because of cherry blossom and also, a cherry girl, was a girl who, was intact. Yeah. And, her name was Cherry. And, he married her. He brought her home to Australia and he was the first one to do it. General Robertson, the Commander-in-Chief, was dead against it. But, he did

it, and ever since, many have done it. A few of my mates have brought a wife home from Japan.

No, no, oh they wouldn’t have cared they’d’ve said, “Oh we’ll beat this.” Beat the bureaucracy, that’s, that’s the way to go. I even remember a captain in Tokyo, who wanted to marry, a woman who was of Spanish descent,

I think, maybe from South America. And General Robertson would not allow that wedding. He married her anyhow. Yeah.

I don’t know, she, she must have had some sort of blood in her which was a bit dark. And Robertson wouldn’t allow it, he was a hard man. Yeah. I heard the story of a, captain, his aide-de-Camp, going into his office one morning and he stood there, and said, “Good morning

Sir,” and he said, “Hummerston,” who incidentally was the first man killed in Korea, he said, “It’s a salute I’m after not a weather report.” Oh he was a pig of a man old Red Robbie, yeah.

Once he came to inspect, the reinforcement holding unit and, we were, we were all standing to attention and he said to one bloke, “What do you do here?” And this bloke he’s smarty

he was, he said, “Nothing.” “And what do you do?” “I help him.” Yeah real smarties. I think they might have been charged after that for being insolent.

Where did I stay?

Well, I stayed over night at Iwakuni the Air Force base, on arrival. And then straight up

to Tokyo and stayed at a camp called Ebisu, E-B-I-S-U. It was a Japanese, naval training base during the war where they used to, train in submarines. And, Ebis or Ebisu was the, Japanese God of something or other. And that was lovely there. Oh. I had a houseboy, used to make me bed, clean me shoes, do me washing.

Oh, right and I was still only 18 at that time. Yeah.

He was a man in his ‘40s. Yeah. Bowing to me and you know, it was a job to them and, they felt very important, doing it for the Occupation Force. And the girls, used to walk up and down the passage after cleaning your room out and they’d bow to you and, “Hello,” and I’d say, “Hello namaenani,” it would mean what’s

your name?” “Me, Peanuts.” Yeah, her boyfriend was a warrant officer. Her name was Peanuts. Oh yeah. Quite funny. And there was a leave hotel right opposite, my room over the road, called the Ebisu Hotel where, later, the guys from Korea could come back and have five days rest and recuperation.

Pardon me.

Just an ordinary old-fashioned office I suppose and, the series like a beehive. You’d go from there to there to, an officer and there into another officer and into there, to the commanding officer.

In Tokyo?

Just, general clerical work, probably putting files away and, opening envelopes you know what the, menial tasks, type of tasks given to a, junior.

Eh?

I didn’t mind it, oh I thought it was all right and, oh I thought it was pretty sweet, yeah. And then the, balloon burst of course with Korea and,

everything changed. And, when I went down to join the Battalion we lived in huts, at Hiro.

Mm.

Well, if you knew, where the black market people were, you could get your ration

from the canteen like, boot polish toothpaste, soap, pardon me. Soap, cigarettes and what have you. And if you wanted to you could go out the gate, and, the guys that knew it all would say, “Well you go out there and you’ll see, Graveyard Gertie or someone there and she’ll buy it off you,” and they’d try to haggle and, not give you what the value was. And

you’d show it to them. I did it, everyone did it. You could sell that stuff to them and make a heck of a profit on it.

What would you sell? Cigarettes. Toothpaste. Soap. Chocolate, yeah. And, they in turn would sell it amongst their own people I suppose and make their profit on it too. Pardon me. I’m getting a bit of a sore throat

I think.

No, no. Never. The only things we’d buy from the Japanese would be from shops. And we weren’t allowed to drink some of their spirits or wines because they were, bombo. Yeah. The beer was all right. Kirin was the brand of the beer. But,

the, do you hear that?

There’s something wrong with it. (checks hearing aid) Sometimes I can hear properly and other times I can’t.

I’ve got to take it in and get it fixed.

Yep.

They were, living in what I’d term, semi-poverty. But they were starting to get on their feet because of the good will of the Americans, and, oh,

we treated them pretty, pretty well too. I mean they’re just another, another people, to us eventually, I’m not, they weren’t a lower class person or any such thing. It took them a while, I think, to get back, get their feet back on the ground. And as I mentioned before they had no rehabilitation for their servicemen, who came back. They,

made their living mainly by begging. And you could, you could see them with their white, suits on like a jumpsuit.

Well. I don’t I don’t know I suppose I,

I couldn’t understand how, they could live in these, little houses with paper doors and what have you but, once you go into them, they’re pretty spacious and they’ve got plenty of room. But, in in a lot of cases they’ll eat and sleep in the one room. And they’ll have a little, fire there called a, I think, an ibachi, and, they use the chopsticks to turn the embers

over the, it’s not like a flaming fire it’s just embers of whatever they put in there. Some of the dress, well the women were, a lot of them were in the old-fashioned dress, old, national dress. The old fellows they were, I don’t know, looked pretty daggy, I guess.

But they weren’t, in business, in that they weren’t running the country when I was there. See I’m quoting ’49 ’50, ’51, ’52, gee 1, 2, 3, 4, that’s over four different years yeah. And I still came home just after my 21st birthday, so, yeah. Eventually they, started wearing suits

and they became westernised. To go into a Japanese theatre was an experience. I saw, I think it was Joan of Arc, in one of their theatres, and it was, what do they call it when the Japanese writing is underneath? Superimposed or, something like that. And I also went to one of their, live,

theatres, which was called the Takaruzaka, in Tokyo. And, oh, you couldn’t enjoy it but the Japanese enjoyed it because they’re, they’re, ooohhh, they know what it means but we didn’t. But it was just an experience just to see it. A lot of Japanese would, use, a big department store, departmental store, whichever

is correct, called the, I can’t think what it’s called now, it’s on the main street on the Ginza, in Tokyo and you could buy anything in there, once again it was American inspired. No I’m, now I can’t think, Koshidori something. But it was a whopping big place and you could

buy anything in there you wanted. And the prices were, very reasonable. You’d get a good Japanese imitation of an American, Ronson, cigarette lighter, for about 20 cents. Yeah. I’ve got a, print on the wall just out here in the passage, of, taken from a photograph of my mother, and it was put on silk. A guy painted it. And that cost me 40 cents. The equivalent of it. Just

amazing. But now I suppose if I went back to Tokyo I wouldn’t know it and the people, would be just so, so westernised. They understood and they knew damn well that, they’d lost the war and, I think they accepted that. They had to anyhow because, they had to get back on their feet, they had to live. If you went into,

or over to, any of the outlying, islands, which we did once on, on a launch, it’s just beautiful there it’s all natural Japanese, you know, waterfalls and, lovely little beer shops with a barrel on the counter and, cobblestone floor and, spotlessly clean. They were wonderful.

An excellent trip, yeah. I can’t say much more about the Japanese I suppose.

No, never. Never. Not from any Japanese at all. You get the young blokes that worked in the kitchen at the camp we were at and they used to make out they were, they were real ockers, they wanted to be like Australians.

You’d bounce a potato off their head and, they’d come back to earth.

Names?

What?

Oh, well one of their nicknames for an Australian was, I think, gook. That might have come from, a Japanese name from way

back I’m not sure. But, we used to call them gooks. Noggies. Well they all, nearly all had a name as I mentioned before, about a girl her name was Peanuts and, one, Japanese, guy, young fellow, in the kitchen he was, we called him Punchy. ‘Cause he, he used to shape up and think he was great. Soon as you did that to him

he went for his life. Yeah.

Did I?

What for Japanese people or for myself?

Junior, yeah I was always called Junior. Oh and some of the Japanese women, that worked in the, in the camp they called me Baby-san. ‘Cause, I was, I was young I guess. But, san

is their way of saying Mr or Mrs. They always put san after like Jimmy-san or, Betty-san. They always put san after it, yeah.

Oh. I guess it was all right. I, wasn’t young for too much longer after I first went to

Korea they reckon you get older after one day. You go in a boy you come out a man. In fact I’ve got a photo in there I’ll show before you go of me, taken on the boat on the way over to Korea, which I got from the War Memorial in Canberra, not so long back. And, it’s one you can’t photocopy, I don’t know what it is they do with it but you can’t photocopy it properly.

And, you’ve got to pay for them. And then they send the photo to you.

Oh. I never had any resentment. My brother did, my, eldest brother who went through, New Guinea and what have you,

against the Japanese. He, he, absolutely resented them. And, I wouldn’t talk to him much about, about Japan and, how they were, not a bad sort of people but, then again, they were a different type of person in action, in New Guinea. During the war they were quite strange.

Can we open that door a little bit do you think, Keirnan [interviewer]?

That’ll do. No just a little bit, need a bit of air in here.

Oh. I don’t know I mean, I would say, that during the war they were fanatics.

They would have had to have been fanatics. And, everything was for the Emperor. And, they did as they were told they were very well disciplined. But, in Japan, when they knew they were a defeated nation, they were, very soft. Oh that’s about as far as I could go on that I think. And, they’d never talk about it, any of their service or if

they were in the army or navy or air force. No they wouldn’t talk about it.

Very little except for the, when I mentioned the guy who, who was our houseboy and, I used to look after him and, we all did

and we’d give him some pocket money, he was getting paid by the Government, the Australian Government, or Japanese, I don’t know which, for doing his job. Other than that, we didn’t, play basketball with them or, or you couldn’t play football ‘cause they wouldn’t have known how. Didn’t have parties with them. I remember one

Christmas, where oh it was Christmas 1949, that’s right my first Christmas there. And, we had a lovely Christmas dinner and, the Japanese put on a, bit of a concert and, in came these Japanese girls through the door, dancing, dressed up as angels. And trying to sing, Silent Night. I think it was Silent Night you know that brought a bit of a tear to my eye.

And, they were trying to do their best. But otherwise I didn’t have much to do with them, no.

Oh that, that took a while. You see, it, it’s like Korea, the Americans re-built Korea and the Americans re-built Japan. And, I would say, they’re probably

still paying for it. Still paying America back. The, buildings in Tokyo, to me seemed very intact. Now, maybe, whether they were missed by the, American bombers or not I don’t know but, when I think of ’49, ’50, they could have been re-built by then.

Let’s see, what else, might have been re-built? The Palace, Imperial Palace wasn’t touched. No one was allowed in there and you couldn’t see it from the air. It was covered. And, when Hirohito came out, from his palace, he was in a white car, about a 1933 model, with, black windows,

and no one could see he could see out but no one could see in. He was sacred you know and, certainly weren’t allowed to, to go near it, weren’t allowed to even touch it and, the Japanese would just lie on the ground and bow and moan and carry on when he went past them. And the Australians did guard duty, on the Imperial Palace. I was in a march, in 1950, from

the Imperial Palace down A Avenue past, pardon me, General MacArthur’s headquarters, down to the railway station, Tokyo Railway Station. And that was a fantastic, turn of events. They were all lined up in the streets, Americans Australians British Indian, Japanese, all cheering. And the drum major, he died just recently as a matter of fact,

can’t think of his name. Anyhow, as, they were passing General MacArthur’s headquarters, he twirled his mace and, threw it up, in the air, and it got tangled in the overhead wires. And then, he just held his hand out like that, and it came down point first and bounced back into his hand. And, the Americans thought, that was an act just put on for them. But it was a

mistake actually and it happened. Yeah. He, he got a George Medal, in Korea, for swimming the froz- or it was nearly frozen, the, Teeyong or Tayong River [actually Taenyong River] or the Chongchon River one of the two up in North Korea. And, oh gee I can’t think of his name but, I’ll get it eventually. And that, that was a,

a good memory of Tokyo in that march. But General MacArthur’s headquarters, that was a whopping big, building it was called Da’ichi which in Japanese is number one. They also had an Empire House for, any of the Commonwealth troops to go in and, have dinner or, you know, whatever they wanted to do in there, play billiards. And of course there was the Australian Embassy which was in there

too. I ne-… I went in the but I didn’t go far I just can’t remember anything about it.

That didn’t worry me much I mean, someone’s got to be there I suppose and, better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know. And, when, when he died his son took over, Akahito, and, that, that’s not so long back or, or is it?

I’m not so sure when but, Akahito took over from Hirohito, and he’s still the Emperor. But he’s still got all the powers of, what have you in his own country, yeah. But you see they wanted Hirohito tried as a war criminal, MacArthur wouldn’t allow it. No. He said he, he’s got to stay there and that way,

it’s going to keep the peace with the people, otherwise anything could happen. So he stayed there ‘till he died.

Oh, no. They used to say the old bloke, sitting up there in, in luxury. But, when our

blokes, guarded the Palace they were outside and they weren’t inside the Palace grounds, they were out in the century boxes. And they would change the guard every, day or so. British, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, Indian.

I don’t

remember too many of them, pardon me. When I arrived there, they were starting to, get ready to go home, the Indians for example, and the only ones left were Australians. And, they took over as the last batch of the, pardon me.

They took over as the last batch of, people for the, Occupation, mm. And they went right through ‘till, I don’t know, the Occupation finished, in, May ’52 I think. That’s when the Peace Treaty was signed with the Japanese. And, thereafter, it wasn’t called

the BCOF, British Commonwealth Occupation Force, it was called British Commonwealth Forces in Korea. They changed the name. But, Japan was the base for the Korean War, mm.

They had electricity. Sewerage

that’s, that’s a, that’s a bit of a funny one. Because, I think the poorer people might not have had sewerage. I can’t say, offhand. But, I remembered my introduction, to Japan, the night I arrived, I asked one of the air force guys at [(UNCLEAR)] Air Force Base where, the toilets were and he said “You go in round there,” yeah. And, it was a communal toilet, both male and female.

And, there were no seats, you couldn’t go and sit. You’d squat. You had to squat, in a, in a long line, of, like a, partitioned booths. And you’d go in there you had to squat. And, in so doing, if there was anyone, up ahead of you, well you saw everything that, was coming through and, I came out and I was purple. And he said, “Oh you’ll get used to it. That’s the way it goes

here.” But I think later they went into proper, hygiene and, proper toilet methods, mm.

Communal. Well both male and female, yeah. Yep.

Eh?

Oh well I mean you could go into, a toilet, through the door and there would be a urinal there for the men, and a seat.

And the women would come in while you’re there and just go in and sit down and, nothing thought of, no worries. Yeah. That’s something that amazed me, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah I went to Hiroshima.

And, it was

quite a mess. And there was a building there which, wasn’t completely destroyed but they used that, I think it might have been at the epicentre I’m not sure but they used that as a basis, of, remembrance, I forget what they call the park, Remembrance Park or something in Hiroshima. And it’s, it’s a big

thing now, for the Japanese people. And I can’t to this day understand why they dropped one on Nagasaki. Because it’s way down South and out of the way of everything, unless there were armour factories there or something there.

“My God what a mess”, yeah. And I did see, an outline, of a male,

running for his life, and this was on the bridge, on a bridge at, Hiroshima. And, the blast apparently caught, his shadow and burnt his shadow into the brickwork. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And, I

did have, I brought it home with me I think, a, pamphlet on the different sights at Hiroshima and oh, they were shocking. Yeah. They, the people that were, burnt from the atomic rays, the gamma rays, see there’s three rays alpha beta and gamma, and it’s the gamma rays that get you.

What the atomic bomb?

“I hope to God they never drop it on us.” That was my thought. Little knowing that later, maybe five or six years later on, I’d see four of them detonated in Australia. Yeah. Trees just completely wiped out. But the people, they re-built it and they carried on but, see a lot of those people would be dead

now, that were in the explosion the detonation or the bombing, at Hiroshima. There was a brewery there too called Asahi. And now to buy that beer in Australia, it’s very expensive, something like $50-$60 a box, carton. But, when we were there we wouldn’t entertain Asahi beer. How it started,

at Hiroshima, the, Carlton United Breweries sent some people over to Hiroshima to, get a brewery going, to supply the Australian and British troops with beer from Australia. So they built up the brewery and then, they got sick of it in the end and just walked out and left it all there. So the Japanese continued and built it up to what it is today the biggest brewery in Japan.

And Carlton and United walked out on them. Yeah. I’ve been, to most places, many places in Japan. Down south, Fukuoka. I didn’t get up to Hokkaido. Honshu of course is the main one. From Tokyo down, to Kure, Hiroshima.

Yeah Shikoko and Kyushu I think is the bottom island. Yeah. But, been to most of them yeah. If ever I go back I’ll go to Japan only, I won’t go back to Korea again I don’t think. Yeah.

Never. I can’t, from recollection think of anyone ever talking

about it. Truman said, if he had not ordered that bomb, there would have been, more than, the number affected by that bomb, there would have been more young American soldiers killed if the war had continued. So. That was it. And he was the one who stopped us going into China too. From Korea.

Radiation? No, because, the bomb itself was not, as bad as the ones they’ve, they’ve let off in Australia and at Montebello because, the people stayed there and I can’t understand it and they got, got their feet on the ground again. So to go there now, I don’t know that there’s any radioactive area

around or cordoned off. Whereas Maralinga’s still cordoned off in certain parts. And, the Aboriginals are screaming they want their land back but, what’s the good of them going in if it’s radioactive? They’ll get a good grant out of it.

Eh?

I was in Tokyo. And, I don’t know how I heard it but I wondered about it and where was Korea? No one seemed to know. Yet it was right next door. And then the word came through that they wanted volunteers

to reinforce 3 Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, who’d stationed down at Hiro. And, they wanted as many as possible from Japan, to go across to Korea, without waiting for reinforcements from Australia. Because at the time I believe, 3 RAR only, oh they were about a third of their strength. So, Menzies said

he wouldn’t send, under-strength people, under-strength battalions, over there, and the Yanks wanted us right or wrong straight away. So, they called for enlistments from, ex-Second World War guys and called it Special Force which was later to be called K Force [Korea Force] for them to go. Come up and join 3 Battalion’s reinforcements and go over with them. Well, they came and that

filled the Battalion and then we went over as I mentioned on the 27th of, September 1950 and we lobbed there on the 28th of September 1950. Now these guys, who came as reinforcements, were Second World War and very early days, BCOF, from say 1946. And, they, looked after younger guys like me. Now,

one of them who particularly looked after me, Bernie Goldsmith, when things were down a bit he’d pull his mouth organ out and play a tune, he got killed at Kapyong. And I met his wife, his widow, who’s remarried, in Korea, just a few weeks ago. And I was talking to her about him she said, well I’m pleased to hear you say that about the mouth organ he carried that through World War II as well. This might be a bit of a diversion but, I’m on three

committees in Canberra, on the Korean mortality study and that’s working out you know the difference in illnesses between Korean veterans and civilian street. And, there were, I was told, quite a number of guys enlisted in this Special K Force to go to Korea who were

well, over the age limit and to my mind, it must be the first war ever, where people have put their age down to go to war instead of putting their age up to go to war. And some I believe were born in the 1800s. Now it was in 1950 so they must have been over 50 when they went there. And one I remember, old Joey Longmore, he must have been over 60 when he got killed.

He got killed at Pakchon I think. Yeah. And, he left a wife and seven daughters behind. Should never have been there. But, gung ho you see. Wanted to be there. But, quite a number were born in the 1800s. The old Aussie digger spirit’s coming out there isn’t it? Yeah. But they were, they were good soldiers and,

they, were gutsy soldiers and they always cared for young blokes you see because, I was regular army and, there were not too many young regular army blokes there in the Battalion because, the main, bulk of the, members of the Battalion were all Second World War. Yeah. But, we all got on so well together and, I thought the world of them.

Lot of them are gone now. See there’s only, about 7,000 left out of 18,000, that went to Korea.

Well they all got called Pop. Or Pappy. You know, and, they, well we’d look up to them. Oh, God yeah. You know, it’s “Take it easy kid,

take it easy, she’ll be right, we’ll fix it up.” Oh yeah we respected them, wholeheartedly, yeah. One of them, Pappy Nash I reckon he was, getting on to 60, on the way home on the boat, or ship or whatever they want to call it, we were picking bits of shrapnel out of his nose, with tweezers. Yeah. Yeah, old Pappy.

Well, it’s the digger spirit. And that is something that was a hand-me-down from Gallipoli. And on it went. And on it went. Or if you like go back to the Boer War. Because, some of those guys wouldn’t take any notice of the British officers and yet, all the officers in charge of Australians were British. And the Australians

, wouldn’t have a bar of them. And someone told, one of the British officers to get the men out from there and do this and do that and he said, “Are you kidding me?” He said, “I’ve got all Australians under me.” He said, “If I, if I tell them something like that they’re going to cut my throat.” So there they stayed but, you know the spirit of the ANZAC [Australian and New Zealand Army Corps] is the thing that, that went on for years and it still is there. That’s why the Australian soldier is,

quoted as being the world’s best. And I’ll go along with that. Yeah. Too right.

Oh yeah. Yeah I was under the British in Korea. When we first went there, we were under the British Commonwealth, 27th Brigade, made up of the, Argyle and

Sutherland Highlanders and Middlesex Regiment and our 3 Battalion Royal Australian Regiment. That was called the Commonwealth Brigade, 27th Commonwealth Brigade. And then in 1951 they formed the Commonwealth Division, made up of Australian, English, Canadian, Indian, New Zealand, South Africa. And all of those were joined together with, pertinent jobs to do. And again we were under the British mm.

That was called num- British Commonwealth Division and there’ll never be another one. I can’t think of how or when. No. Never be another one so, we’re all pretty proud of that. Yeah.

Oh, okay. I was, I was a corporal there and, they,

the young, the young national servicemen, see a lot of the British soldiers were national servicemen and they get sent overseas. And, if they were talking to me some of these young guys they’d stand to attention, ‘cause I was a corporal. I’d say, “Oh cut out that garbage will you you know we don’t work like that.” “Oh aye sir we must,” “No you don’t not with me thanks”.

Oh they couldn’t understand it. Oh these Australians. Oh, oh aye. Yeah. They liked us they thought we were great guys and, that was, that was good. Kiwis were a bit wild like us. Yeah.

Oh yeah that, that always, I mean they reminded us the Kiwis and say, come on, we’re

Anzacs together, oh yeah yeah, sure. That word ‘Anzac’ you know. I used to think it was A-N-Z-A-C in blocks. But it’s not. It’s lower case with a capital A because it’s now, a word. A proper word and, you’ve got to have a capital A there. It’s, it’s no longer a, what’s the word for it? Acronym. You know like,

some of these, like RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force], no, that’s not a very good example. The RAN [Royal Australian Navy] people often say the RAN, Royal Australian Navy, that’s an acronym. But if you put that in capitals you’re right. Because otherwise it becomes also ran or, you ran a mile or something. And, the word run comes into it and run’s got 832 different meanings. Yeah I’m getting

into old, being pedantic now aren’t I? Can’t think of, what else was there? Oh about, getting along with the Brits. Yeah.

They called for volunteers in Tokyo, and myself and another guy volunteered. And then we were told we were moving down to, Hiro to join 3 RAR, 3 Battalion the Royal Australian Regiment. And,

we duly did that. And, we were the only two from Tokyo I think. I’m not so sure where any others came from until, reinforcements arrived from Australia. Now the reinforcements as I mentioned were not, only made up of K Force, Special Force, there were regular army guys as well, who reinforced, the Battalion. Until we, the Battalion

came up to full strength and then we did training for Korea, mountainous training, and, went to Korea on the 27th on board the Aiken Victory, an American ship.

Thought it was the thing to do I guess. I just, esprit de corps,

yeah. Comradeship, camaraderie. The old digger, instinct. The digger spirit. All of those things tied into one I guess. And the fact that my brothers, had been, in a war. Maybe I thought, “Here goes, if I go home and say oh no I wouldn’t volunteer, I’d be ashamed of myself.” Which, I hated,

shame. Yeah I hated shame so I volunteered and I was glad, I did. Now I’m glad I did. Sometimes I’d say, “I wish to God I had never volunteered for that crummy war,” but, that’s by and by.

Yeah. Well. I don’t know. What we were told it was hilly

country and, dirty roads and, they were peasants and, South Korea was, agricultural and North Korea, was, industrial. Because, they they had the iron ore up there in North Korea and, when you think of it, North Korea and Russia and around that area, [(UNCLEAR)] they were all, iron ore areas.

But North Korea had more hills than South Korea, oh, shit. And we went, practically, from Seoul in South Korea right through North Korea on foot, or riding on a tank. I’ll tell you more about that later it’s a bit sick.

On the boat trip? Oh we just sat around making sure our weapons were clean and, it was an overnight

trip and we were all squashed up together I guess and we, just slept on the floor I just can’t remember. And we arrived, morning, or before lunch. And, got ourselves organised with our gear, our packs and, rifles, weapons. I had an Owen gun I didn’t have a rifle. And,

we had our numbers in, the [(UNCLEAR)] rear of our hats. Embarkation numbers. And we were called off the ship by those numbers. We had to line up by those numbers and form up down on the wharf. There’s a big sign, right across the top of one of the wharf sheds there, through these doors pass the goddamnest fighting men in the world. They were the Americans you know. But,

the American band down the bottom, playing, a Negro band, playing Saint Louis Blues. Women, Korean women in their national dress. But it stunk, phew! Filthy place. Yeah.

Dead fish. Because they used to, keep the fish and, the heads of the fish and, dry them and, eat them. Chew them like chewing gum.

And, non-sewerage, all that sort of thing. Just general filth I guess.

Their national dress is a very very wide, not skirt well it could be called a skirt but it touches the ground. A flared type of dress, that touches the ground. And,

they have a little, sort of jacket on the top. Very colourful actually, their national dress yeah.

“God what are we in for?” And my mate said to me, “Don’t worry in a couple of weeks we’ll be dodging bullets.” “Oh, thanks,” ohh. I wasn’t too impressed

but, everything reassured the other thing. Yeah.

When we landed?

Okay, we were sorted out and put on a train, for, Taegu, which was the perimeter of the Pusan perimeter which is where the remaining United Nations forces were, were hemmed in by the North Koreans.

But General MacArthur made that landing at Inchon I think on the 12th I think of September. And he cut across the North Koreans and cut half off, in the South, and the rest bolted back up North. So we had to go and clean up a, few spots where these North Koreans were and, they were, carrying on guerrilla warfare, well they soon got, fixed up. And, we got on a train. An old dogbox, oh God, a rattler, from,

Taegu and that took us up to Seoul, the capital, which had been relieved after the North Koreans took it over. And from there, we, formed up and, we then, went on the move into North Korea. Through Sariwon, Pyongyang, up to Pakchon, Chongju and,

that was as far as we went, we weren’t allowed, any further north. Although MacArthur wanted to go into China but, he wasn’t allowed because it would have created World War III.

I was a sig, a signaller. And, apart from being a signaller, I was I was also, one of the sigs went off

duty, if you call it off duty, I was available as a reinforcement, if there was a stoush on with any of the companies. And, we would have to go up and, get into the line with the, with the others firing away, in the company. And that happened quite a bit, you know. Or help carry a wounded bloke down, something like that.

The night Colonel Green got hit, he was, his little tent, was about from here to where we had our morning tea away from, from me. And, I had to get on the, signal phone thing and ring through to the company commanders and let them know, that he’d been hit. And, I mean, I’m reluctant to say that because a lot of people want, kudos,

if they’ve done something, important, something as important as that. But it’s a fact, I did. Yeah and there were also linesmen, in the Sig Platoon, and linesmen, would go out and lay a line, a telephone line cable line from, Battalion headquarters up to, or, from headquarter company up to the companies outpost.

And of course the, North Koreans would sneak in and, cut the wires. Then it’d have to be done again.

Well, as I as I mentioned there, on the on the switchboard, I wasn’t a switchboard operator, by any means. But that was one of the duties.

I might have had to go out, with a liney, a linesman, and do that. That was another one. I might have had to get on a radio and talk, to someone on the radio but I wasn’t fully conversant with the radio language. I mean you, for example, you couldn’t mention, Jim or Jack. You just say, “I want to speak to Seagull.” If Seagull was the adjutant.

Or, “I want to speak to Sunray”. Sunray was the boss. Or, Sunray minor was the company commander. You had to use all that sort of language. But, sometimes you’d hear the North Koreans jibber on, on the line. They’d break in, somewhere. And as I said, you were also, a rifleman. Yeah. You’d get called up to one of the companies as a reinforcement. And when it was over you’d get sent back to the Signal Platoon.

Oh you’d just hear them jibbering. God knows what they’d be saying. ‘Cause, we didn’t have interpreters. Oh there were some around, South Korean blokes. But, we’d have to be careful what we’d say because they could pick it up, yeah.

20th of September. 25th, 28th, three, three weeks. Earlier than that though actually in the hills, mopping up operations. But the actual first day of action was, Sariwon. No, that, that would have been, yeah about 3 weeks or a little less. And, we went through, all the,

little, huts, thatched roof huts and, roused them out, prisoners. North Koreans were in there. And, women were, sewing up uniforms, North Korean thingos and, I think, I’m not sure, how many it was, but, at Sariwon we took, the Battalion took, over 1900 prisoners. North Koreans.

They just tossed it in. And, some of them, thought we were Russians and they said, Ruski Ruski, yeah come here, you’ll see who we are. And, I do recall, sadly I suppose, going into one hut, we had to burn a village down, and there was a dear old lady in there and she was crying her eyes out and she, she didn’t want to leave, she wanted to burn. I picked her up to carry her out and she died in my arms. Yeah. I just put her out in the paddy

field with all of the others, couldn’t do anything. Yeah.

Fright I suppose, or heart. Who knows? She was very old. Very frail. She didn’t weigh anything.

Oh, you know, once once you know what it’s all about I suppose you know what to expect and you’re very

careful. And, you know what you shouldn’t and what you should do. I mean, don’t light a cigarette at night and, if you’re on sentry duty just, any little noise you hear, let your mates know. One night we, were in, an area, and we had to withdraw, because the North Koreans came, came in and they sort of

ran over it that area. And we had to leave some of our gear behind. The next morning, we were told, that if we wanted to go back and get it, we could do but we’d have to crawl across the ground. Which we did. And I went back and, I got my haversack back with a camera in it, that my aunt had given me before I left to go to Japan, yeah.

Eh?

I suppose it was. But, we were all together and, you know they say safety in numbers. But, we were glad to get back I can assure you. But they weren’t around at the particular spot when we, did it, they were way up in the hill we could see them in a hill. Unless it was another lot. Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh well it’s so long ago and,

I’m pretty sure that was where, the Rakkasans, the, American 187th Airborne, were coming down and they were getting shot, by the North Koreans. And we, and they surrounded. And we went in there, and, got into the North Koreans and, they bolted. And the Rakkasans, were freed. Let’s say we had them released.

And I kicked a tin helmet over and there was a set of brains in it. Yeah. And, for the want of another name it was called the Apple Orchard because it was an apple orchard. And a lot of them went into the paddy fields and hid in the, you know the stooks the, how they, put their, rice stooks up in a pyramid shape. And, our blokes were firing into them and they were

coming out and running and ‘Pop, you’re gone,’ ‘bang.’ But at that Apple Orchard, on, one occasion I was to go up, to, I think it might have been A Company up a hill, and, a North Korean jumped out of a gutter-type, embankment and, he put his hands in the air and, I put my Owen gun on him.

Come on, went like that you know, the, I thought, “Oh you beauty, I’ve got my first prisoner.” And next thing, ‘bang!’ Someone shot him right between the eyes. I looked around it was a British soldier. He said, “We’re not taking prisoners Digger.” “Oh! What did you do that for?” I, had a go at him. But he just wandered off somewhere I don’t know. That, bloke was, ‘pop.’ He’d be with his ancestors now. To see his face,

when he was pleading not to be shot. Oh God, that was memorable. And then all of a sudden to see hear the bang and see the hole in his forehead. He just crumpled in a heap. That was that, yeah. So we beat them at the Apple Orchard, yeah.

About?

What was I thinking about him? I thought he was a mongrel, for doing what he did.

Because I had been there first and I had taken him prisoner. And he said, “Wait’ll you see what they’ve done to our blokes up there in the hill.” They were a very atrocious lot of people the, North Koreans. And, before, I think it was before the Apple Orchard, we found a creek, and it was a

stinking filthy creek. Water, incidentally, was, phut! And, there were a number of, bodies and skeletons there with their hands tied behind their back with signal wire and a bullet hole in the back of the head. And, they could have been Americans or South Koreans because, the North Koreans, in the early days, were well known not for taking prisoners. And at one stage, in a division, I think there were something like 900 Americans missing. And, they say they were murdered by the

North Koreans. So, all of this, builds up, inside you you know and, but, it was the way I took this bloke, to be a prisoner. I think that upset me, that someone else moved in behind me and shot him. Maybe, he might have had a hidden hand grenade. Could have blown up both to smithereens. Who knows? Yeah. So.

What did I say to him?

Well I said “What, what did you do that for?” I swore at him I suppose and, he said, “Wait’ll you see, we don’t take prisoners, wait’ll you see what they’ve done to our blokes. Up there, on the hill”. Where our Company, A Company were up there on the hill I think it was A Company yeah.

Eh?

Well. They shot them, shot

some of our blokes obviously. And, I don’t think there were any atrocities carried out there I did hear some sort of a story where they, disembowelled them and, shoved, what whatever, down the throats of some. But I personally didn’t see that. You see a lot of, a lot of these, North Korean soldiers were

really from South Korea. And as you saw in that photo that, that young North Korean bloke, he’s only about 12. But, he was from South Korea. And the other bloke his brother. In the South Korean army. I’ve got a book in there about a South Korean university student who was taken prisoner by the North Koreans and taken, up to North Korea and put in a prison North Korean prison camp. He was then taken out, and put in uniform

and made to go south, with the army, and fight against his own people. And he was taken prisoner by his own people and put in a South Korean prison camp. So he was in, in two, North and South and he was a South Korean, student. Oh yeah it didn’t matter. No training no nothing, just, go and shoot.

Oh I just don’t know that we were ever told much about them. The Americans always said they were, they were animals shoot first, ask questions later. I mean, the South Koreans if they took North Korean prisoners, ‘Pow.’ They didn’t muck around, yeah. They’re brothers, you might say, well when I say brothers, the whole country is Korea. Separated by

North and South, Communism and United Nations or Americanism. Yeah it’s a pretty sad state of affairs. And the fact that they haven’t signed a peace treaty at the moment, up ‘till now, 50 years later it’s, can’t imagine it, yeah.

It was a big hill. Right? And the orchard was down below.

And, I’ve got to think back a bit here because, the wounded came down the hill and they were put, in gutters on the side of the road, so that if a, if a mortar came over, there, say, and exploded, and it’d go right over the top of them and it wouldn’t, injure them further. And right up on, on top of the hill, and there’d be other hills surrounding the hill and, crests and ridges

and, they were all embedded everywhere, those, these monkeys. But, I think they held, the Australians in awe. Yeah. I do. But the Australians fixed a lot of them up when they, got them in those rice stooks in the paddy field. Even the Brigade Commander, Brigadier Code, he said, oh it was wonderful to see it was like a shooting gallery. Like an Aunt Sally or

something like that, the way the Australians knocked them off, when they ran out thinking they were going to freedom. But, no. They went to meet their ancestors. It was a, the first big battle you might say. Real battle. And then the second one was Chongju the broken bridge.

Well there was only us, in the Apple Orchard. And then, as I said, we rescued the, 187th Airborne, and, they were in it also, but, oh, Australians yeah and the British, the,

Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders and the Middlesex. All together the three of us in our 27th Brigade.

Lying on the ground, behind mounds. And, firing, straight ahead if they put a head up, ‘bang’. But, we, wouldn’t have had much time to dig trenches.

You don’t have much time to dig trenches and, it was, just a matter of, firing across, and hoping you didn’t get, get knocked off, if your head went up. But, there was quite a few of them the odds were always, in their favour. They had plenty. Manpower was nothing and the Chinese were worse. Hundreds of thousands, Gosh.

Life meant nothing to them. Yeah. And they could live on a handful of rice, a day. Carry their, handful of rice with them. Yeah.

Well, we either went on American tanks, or in American trucks, driven by American Negro, soldiers. And,

a few Australian vehicles. Not too many though. British vehicles. And, then we’d, have to stop and jump off and get on the side of the road and, if if they’d hear a shot or a mortar bomb, yeah. And, of course there was always a forward, forward scout element to, check what it was like further ahead. Yeah.

When you say defences, what were the Koreans defending?

Oh just in a straight, straight line if you like. Looking, looking to their front. Just a great long, long line of them. And, I don’t know they’d drop back. And,

some of our guys’d go forward but it was a bit dangerous. Just wait. And and a lot of them evacuated to the paddy fields you see. In the stooks. That’s that’s how they lost their, their plot.

Oh well the sound of the shots, obviously. They, eased off quite a bit but you know but, you’ve always got to be

wary of that because they’re, they’re playing monkey tricks. And, they had mortars, which were a, damn, nasty weapon. They had Russian tanks. They had Russian aircraft, piloted by Russians. Yeah, not Koreans, Russians.

The T34 tanks. We knocked out about, 11 or 12 of them I think one day. Less than one day. And, that’s where the bazookas came into it. They could blow them. Pow. Horrible mess. People getting burnt, inside a tank. Yuck.

Yeah. Then again those same tanks used to go over, civilians, if they got in their way. Just ran over them. It was nothing to see, on the dirt roads, civilians, farmers, in their white farmer suits, flat, flattened. Yuck. They just went straight over them. I’d hate to be run over by a tank you wouldn’t know about it though would you?

Oh sure, yeah. Many of them. Yeah. Not women, they were men. Harmless though. They must have got in, front of the tanks and waved to them or, or said “Stop,” I don’t know but, straight over them and flattened. Squashed. Yeah. This is North Korea I’m talking about.

It was coming on winter. And, it was pretty cold. And we were still in our Australian Army issue, which wasn’t warm at all. And the old army boots. And we eventually got issued with American and then British, cold weather equipment. Boots for example, with nylon mesh inserts. To keep the feet from sweating.

Or if they did sweat it’d just go under the mesh you know and you wouldn’t get, frostbite. We, would have to dig in after. But we’d only dig in, you know if it was a safe area. And, we wouldn’t know how long we’d be there. But never were we in one spot more than about a day. And you can only dig down about that far. And as the weather got colder, the ice set in,

going down like that. And, oh, you’d need a jackhammer to break the ice. So, that it?

Yeah we’d only dig down about that far, so that we could lie in the trench and, if anything, any blasts that’d just go straight over the top and

we’d be safe enough. We were hounded at one stage by, what we call, Bed Check Charlie. Little mono planes, 1926 model mono planes, that the Russians gave them. And, they’d fly over at night and drop, mortar bombs, mover the side. And, they just created havoc. No one was injured. One bloke got wounded I think but, they couldn’t see where they were dropping them

and, it was nuisance value. Another night bombs were coming over hard and fast in our area where we were camped. Butone landed near my trench and I was waiting for, I’d say, “Oh gee I’m getting a one-way ticket now.” And it went ‘plop’, and nothing happened. It was an armour piercing shell, which would only go off if it hit

steel. Yeah. And they were coming from one of the, or some of the tanks. The, T34’s I think they were called. Russian tanks, yeah.

Such as, with the mortar bombs, you wouldn’t hear much. You’d hear the aeroplane. ‘Chuff chuff chuff chuff chuff chuff,’ you know like a real old-fashioned

motor car, an old Ford T Model or something. But, the, armour piercing shells you know. And, no explosion, thank God. Yeah. They were armour piercing. Of course the next morning you might get “Ahoy, come on quick we’re moving, we’re going up North again.”

Or continuing on further up North. All those areas were at, though, I think they eventually formed, North Korean, prison camps there.

Oh, really a day you might say, a day and a bit I’d say. Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea,

this is well before the Apple Orchard, we thought we were going to get in there first but we were beaten to it. And, oh I think the Yanks got in there and, took it over. But, there were great big photographs of, Stalin, Chairman Mao and Kim il Sung, the President of North Korea. Great big photos on the sides of buildings and,

the boys jumped out. Riddled them with bullets. Yeah. Took down any flags, North Korean flags. We blew open, I don’t know if it was a bank or a, post office. And got in there and, I managed to get a, oh it’s about, a stack about that high of, postage stamps, I thought they were postage stamps but they were, duty stamps,

North Korean duty stamps with the iron fist and all this sort of thing on them. And, brought them home with me. And, 40 years later I got them valued and they were only worth $100 so I said, “Oh you can have them”. But, maybe I should have kept them. But still that’s by the way now.

What? The North Korean images? Oh, they were indoctrinated.

They were. They were brain beaten. I mean, Communism was, was a cult, with them. And, they had to believe in it or or they’d be shot. That, that was what it was all about I’m sure. If they didn’t, “Okay, bad luck pal behind the shed,” ‘bang!’ It’s the same as, prisoners, South Korean

prisoners in North Korea. If they said they wanted to be repatriated, they wanted to keep them there to, indoctrinate them into Communism, they’d get knocked off. Everything’s got to be Communism. Everything, yeah.

Yeah.

We went through Pyongyang up to, the Apple Orchard, yeah.

From Seoul? Oh hell.

Well we were, as I said, either in American trucks or on American tanks and, we had to go through Sariwon to, to make sure everything was cleared and that’s, that’s where, we knew there were, North Korean soldiers, established there. And we, dis-established

them and, burnt, a village where they were harbouring. That was the main purpose of burning them. To stop them harbouring. And we took, I think it was 1982 prisoners, from there. And, then we went on to Pyongyang but of course that, that had all been taken over by the Yanks and,

that was blown to pieces. And then from there we went on up, further up north to, Pakchon. I can’t remember too much about the intermediate stops or little stops or, camping, bivouacking or whatever.

Useless. Hopeless. What, what, look what we’re fighting for, it’s a mongrel

place. And, the land, the roads, I mean, oh, struth. In the summertime the roads were nothing but a dust, a dust storm. And in the winter, they were a mud heap. And vehicles were sliding off and down the cliffs and over the cliffs and goodness knows what. And, no two vehicles could pass, in certain areas. I mean, like that one would have to stop and work out what was going to happen. They were shockers.

But now the boss of North Korea, Kim Jong Il, he’s had a highway built from Pyongyang down to the DMZ [Demilitarised Zone] in South Korea. And, it’s a beautiful big highway but no one’s allowed to use it but him. [(UNCLEAR)]. Waste of money and they’re starving. And this, this idiot’s, making them starve and, putting all the money

into munitions.

Yeah. We, at one stage were told we’d be home for Christmas 1950. Home by Christmas, no way! This is MacArthur saying this because, we got up, right up, to, nearly the Yalu River. He wanted to go across. But Truman said, “No, we’ll create World War III

if we do that.” And then, the Chinese said, “Keep out, and don’t touch our North Korean brothers, if you come any further.” And, they then hopped the border across the, Yalu River, about 800,000 of them. And they took over the fight. And the North Koreans were defeated by that time. They were all grouped up in, the mountains of North Korea, way up North. And, they were really defeated. But, China came in and,

China prolonged the war. And this is why they never ever decided on a peace treaty. Because it became a war of real estate. They wanted this bit of land and that bit of land and, even where they had their airfield, in China, at a place called Antung, their MIG fighter planes could take off from there, into ‘MIG alley,’

and have a go at our planes and the American planes, whereas in the early days our planes had to leave from Iwakuni in Japan to go right up there and fight them. Whereas they were just, on the job, the Chinese.

After the Apple Orchard we went on to Chongju. And, there was the, Battle of the Broken Bridge and that’s where, Colonel Green was, mortally wounded and taken

away and died the next day. The North Koreans blew the bridge across the river it was, Taiyong, Tadyong [actually Taenyong] River I think it was, and there was another river there I’m not sure which was which, the Chongchon River, I had the Chongchon River in mind, more than the Tadyong, or Tariyong [actually Taenyong]. And, one, group of our guys went across the river but they came back again because,

a load of North Korean, soldiers came out with their hands up to surrender and, that was a sort of a decoy thing and, next thing fire opened up, with from their own North Koreans shooting their own to, make sure they didn’t surrender. And, then, it was back, back across the river which was icy cold and with

ice flowing in it.

We didn’t. No, this, group that went across, a platoon led by a, Lieutenant Albie Morrison, went across. How they went, I’m not quite sure. They might have, they might have gone across in a pontoon I’m not so sure on how they went across or they got to the part of the broken bridge that was still able to be walked on. But they came back, pretty soon after.

And, a guy I was trying to think of before, Tom Murray, was his name, he was the, drum major, I was telling you about before that threw the mace in the air in Tokyo. One bloke got grabbed by a current and he was being pulled down field and Tom Murray dived in, and, saved him and, got him out. And he got the, British Empire Medal for that. No I’m sorry, I take that back. The George Medal,

which is below the George Cross. That, George Cross of course is the, civilian equivalent of the Victoria Cross. We did get a George Cross in Korea for a prisoner of war, who was also in my platoon, Slim Madden, but more on that later. So, they came back and,

the Chinese came into it not long after that.

Yeah.

Well I wasn’t up there at the bridge and going across and what have you. I was there waiting, with the rest of the guys, on the southern side of the bridge and …

There was more, more trees, than anything. Vegetation. I honestly don’t remember much about the Broken Bridge. I do remember, blokes going off and seeing photos of them climbing up the broken concrete parts of the bridge. But otherwise I don’t remember it because I didn’t take part in the actual action.

I wasn’t, pardon me, I wasn’t one of those that went across, with Lieutenant Morrison. But all, all of our Battalion I think were standing by just waiting, to see what happened.

Oh I think we were probably dug in and, just waiting. And, it wasn’t long after that that the Chinese came

in and we got, we advanced in another direction.

Yeah, oh dug in, what I mean by that is, we would have to dig weapon pits, to set up, say, a Bren gun or mortar or, that sort of thing or, self defensive weapon pits where you, could be like that and, just waiting in case were were

attacked. And, we may well have dug in there, I think we did, to stay overnight I’m I’m not so sure now. I do recall one night where we were just waiting in case they came. And, we were, huddled in groups with groundsheets over the top of us so they couldn’t distinguish us. And we stayed like that all night. And then the next

morning I think we bugged out. But that would have been around about the time the Chinese came into it and we had the big bug out. From, Chongju but, I emphasise Chongju as being the farthest point we ever made.

Well. From, Pakchon, it must have been by truck or tanks.

I’d go, be more inclined to say trucks, than anything. We did a lot of marching to and from here and there up and down hills but, you couldn’t take vehicles up and down the hills.

The hills?

Very very steep and craggy. And, unfriendly. In the wintertime you’d, be hopeless you’d,

you’d take one up and fall back and just fall down the ice yeah it’s shocking.

Yeah.

Yeah, the Americans came good with what was called, what we called pile jackets. And, they were pretty good they were like a coat that you would,

button up in the front. And, they had long sleeves. And then you’d get another jacket, like a parka, to put over it with big pockets in. And that kept the wind out which was the main problem there in the winter the wind. And the boots I’ve mentioned about the insoles being, ventilated. And, trousers, well

we just got trousers to go with the jacket. We also got a cap, which was, a, fur lined cap with the, top coming up in front. And, earflaps so you could pull them down, and they kept the cold out from your ears, oh. But it was that cold in the winter that your, your hands your skin’d just stick to the rifle.

Or weapons.

Eh?

At some stage yeah we had gloves. Or mittens I’m not sure which, probably gloves. But the winter was, oh, minus 40 below. ‘Cause you’ve got the winds in from Siberia, too. That didn’t make us feel too good.

No we we had, this is important too. We had cans of food sure. We, had American rations which were called C rations. Combat rations. And, we were issued with them each day. Now, there were three main cans for a main meal.

Such as, oh, chicken and vegetables, hamburgers and, all the goodies the Americans liked. Bars of chocolate, little cans of, dessert, sweets and, biscuits. And sometimes soup and coffee, little, Nescafe sachets of coffee. But, if you were lucky, you could light a little fire with, oh,

a little sort of a can and you, we put a match to it and it makes a fire, I don’t know what they were called but, you see, in a lot of cases you couldn’t do these things because of the, showing your position away. So mainly it was, eating straight from the tin. And the cold. And in a lot of cases the tin would be, pretty well frozen. But the meals were quite good from those packets of C rations.

Easily.

Just imagine, imagine three little hamburgers, about so big, put in a tin and, gravy with them, and then sealed. Yeah you’d get about three hamburgers out of a tin.

Oh just gravy. And they were, you’d just, eat them with a fork or, a knife or a bayonet. Yeah.

Baked beans, spaghetti, all of those things in tins. Braised steak that was another one. “I’ll swap you one of my hamburgers for one of your beans,” that sort of business went on. The food was all right. Rarely, did we have a cooked meal.

Because, we weren’t in a position to have a cooked meal for long enough. When we were, in areas where the cooks could cook a meal, we weren’t there very long and we were lucky to, get a meal down and off. I think it was at Pakchon, I’m not quite sure but,

a farmer, had some pigs. And they got out. And, a lot of the, bodies, of the dead, had been covered over. See, Koreans, in a lot of cases don’t bury their dead they just throw dirt over them and they have a mound right? Because we used to sometimes, lie low between the graves. And,

on this occasion, it’s in one of the books too, where some of the bodies that were covered over, might have a, an arm or a hand or a foot sticking out, like that. And the pigs that got out were going around and they were eating, the remains. And one of the pigs was caught and cooked. And, given to the troops but they weren’t told, what the pigs had been eating until later. Yeah I think that was at Pakchon.

I think trucks, yeah.

Yeah. All right well just imagine a big 3-ton truck, right? And these had seats along each side, right down from the, in the hole of the tray.

They were covered in, not covered in, they had sides on them, with seats coming down the sides and we just sat on those.

Oh, gee. When you think of those that might have stood. Or just sat on the floor there could’ve been, 30. Yeah.

Few hours maybe.

Swear at each other and tell dirty jokes and, carry on I suppose.

Well I don’t know. I’m saying that because some did but, I think many were just too concerned about where we were going and what we were going to do but, a lot of people tried to, a lot of the guys used to try to, sidetrack you to get your mind off it. Pardon me.

I don’t think so, no. No, I don’t think so. It’s hard to say, I’m a little bit, bit lost for words there. The scenery, well, you couldn’t rely on the scenery to talk about ‘cause there was no scenery at all. And, when we went back just recently, the areas in particular that we’d been to,

were all overgrown so, you couldn’t see what was, where we were in action, beforehand.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Oh I think so yeah, I think a lot of us did talk

about, this that and the other or one bloke might say, “I got a letter from the wife and, blah blah blah, and the kids are, coming on well at school and blah blah blah.”

Not really, no. No. Very, no I’d say not, we didn’t, didn’t talk too much

about things at home. In most cases, in, going through North Korea it was, it was ever on alert. You wouldn’t have time to sit back and relax and talk about anything.

How what?

You’re talking about sentries?

Well, if the Americans were with us, which mostly they were, they had Military Police. And the Military Police would be located at different, areas, to say well okay, through you come and all that jazz . I don’t know that I ever saw any right up the front line though. Yeah oh well it’s all done by,

forward scouts too if you like. Sending scouts out to see, if the coast is clear. And you also had spotter planes, I might add. These little fellows used to fly around and they’d say, over in, point B 6 4 1 or something like that, there’s a grouping of North Koreans there. And,

then the message would go through on the radio on the wireless to, the artillery to blast it. Or if, an air strike was needed, that was a sight to see when the air strikes were on.

Well you can imagine a plane going like this and then diving, like that, which you see in the movies, and then firing rockets or dropping napalm bombs. Napalm bombs are,

full of petroleum jelly. And, soon as they hit the ground they explode and, create a big fire. And, just like a flamethrower, you know what one of them is? Yeah, well they’re just like a flamethrower. But with the with the planes you see them come down and, dive low and then shoot their rockets, wherever the enemy was. And boom. That’d get rid of them we could advance then, no worries they’re gone.

It did happen at Kapyong and it happened to the British down at Taegu. On the Naktong River perimeter. Americans, bombed them with napalm, in error. And, if ever you’ve seen a napalm victim you wouldn’t want to see another one. When we were driving north we, I saw one on the side of the road he was, like this as if, trying to run and,

getting up and trying to run and then boom, the napalm hit him and, all it was just a charred figure like that. The, boys at Kapyong got hit by the spotter plane, organised napalm but in the, in the wrong area and it, it hit one of our companies yeah. And one bloke got burnt badly, so

badly his clothing was burnt off him. As he walked, sticks and stones went straight through his feet. Yeah. He’s still alive to the best of my knowledge. Can’t think of his name but, yeah. But those spotter planes were good, yeah. Very handy.

Yeah, well we would be told to dig in, that would be the first thing. And in most cases that’s what we did. But only about so deep, so that we could lie in them and, have a sleep. And …

Oh it depends on, when you were told to sleep and, when you were woken up I guess.

So quite often you’d be that tired you’d just, you’d go off and then you’d get woken up, “Come on, wake up we’re moving,” “Oh not again.” “Yeah.” So, I’ve mentioned before that, we, didn’t advance to the

Manchurian border because of, President Truman, frightened of World War III. MacArthur wanted to go in and blow the daylights out of them but.

He wasn’t very well liked.

I don’t know. Maybe it was because he, he wasn’t in Korea very often, he’d just issue orders and they had to be carried out. When he did arrive in Korea a big comfortable armchair was made available to him, oh he was,

he was a God. And …

Well that tactic of his on, that amphibious landing at Inchon was, the brainstorm. That, that really helped, United Nations, oh. Because the American Marines went in there and, the North Koreans didn’t know where they were and they were getting wiped. Yeah.

And that helped us advance, further north.

No.

He was, sacked, by Truman, and I’ll tell you why. They met on, I think it was Guam or, one of the islands. And, of course, the American President is the Commander-in-Chief of the whole of the United States Army.

And, MacArthur arrived there and, said hello Mr President and didn’t salute him. And that’s why he got sacked. Yep. So, he was then replaced, I think it was, General Matthew Ridgeway, who, there was a good soldier, a real good guy. Yeah. And, there was another one, General Van Fleet.

I can’t remember they were all, different, divisions, and armies. You see, we were only a Battalion and, then you go from a Battalion to a Brigade to a Division, to a Corps, to an Army. So really there were a lot of people there.

I don’t think there was anything

significant, to think about. Orders were orders and that’s, we were never, sort of, told what the orders were going to be it just happened. You see I went out early from Korea, back to Japan. I was, evacuated with dysentery. And it was pretty bad at the time and I spent about three months in hospital. And then

when I, when I came out, I was posted to the Reinforcement Holding Unit and I was given a job there as a clerk. And, Kapyong started and, I, didn’t go to Kapyong. One bloke said something about me that, stopped me from going and it was something to do with my age, yeah.

Oh well he he thought that, the older soldiers should be the ones to go back and fight

at Kapyong. Not the young blokes because they could be vulnerable. So I didn’t go back then I went back in May or, June I think it was when they formed the Commonwealth Division. And I stayed there, in May or June until, February the next year.

Yeah.

Well, yeah it did happen at, Pakchon and Chongju, yeah. On the way back we stayed at Pakchon too and there again was another action at Pakchon.

Yeah.

Well that was worse than the second one.

That was the Apple Orchard on the way up.

At Pakchon, yeah.

Chongju, yeah.

Oh, I’m not sure but I’d say it was uneventful, yeah. It was it’s not that far across to Chongju from Pakchon.

I mentioned that before too.

That was at Sariwon, on the way up, when they were harbouring North Koreans in the village. And, we had to burn the village down to stop them harbouring in the houses, the huts, you see. And, the result of that was 1,982 North Koreans surrendered, yeah.

To our Battalion.

Oh they just, hands on the back of their heads. Just keep walking. With a few guys not many. One bloke on his own, only a little fellow, he had about 200 I think to himself. Little Sammy, Sammy, yeah.

Well, they had to be put somewhere I think they were sent South. Probably with the Yanks they probably

took them and put them in a compound, down South in Koje do or somewhere. But I’ll say this, it’s very dangerous over there, with prisoners of war. I’ve got a book there on one guy, who, mentions, I think, 16%

of South Koreans are Communist. Against their own people. Shocking isn’t it? Imagine that going on here in Australia.

Being, being taken prisoner and

put in South Korea?

Oh they were separated. I mean the North Koreans were in a certain compound and, those who were South Koreans but fighting with the North Koreans were also put in a separate compound but, they had their own, judge and jury and trials and, anyone who didn’t conform, he was gone. Plenty of murders,

in camp yeah. At one stage they got a lot of paratroopers in there to handle them and, there, they were, sorted out and, it it stopped after a while but, see, a lot of them would say they didn’t want to go home. They were happy where they were in South Korea. And the real true Commos would say,

“But you’re going to go home or, ‘pow.’” Yeah. “If you’re going to stay down here you won’t live.” That’s that’s how it happened, it was pretty true, yeah.

Beg yours?

I’ve got to

be careful here. We weren’t over-impressed. Not impressed.

We had to take over positions, that were occupied by them and, they were gone. Early in the piece, a lot of the South Korean generals were only kids they were only young blokes who’d had no experience at 23 or something and they were made generals.

Well, you get Chinese troops, North Korean troops and South Korean troops, you wouldn’t know one from the other so, infiltration was rife, really rife. And, South Koreans were, for South Koreans, out for themselves and, we were often called in, or not often but sometimes called in, to plug a gap.

I’m not so sure I understand, how did it make you feel about the war you were fighting? I think we more or less just, got on with it, thought, to hell with them. This is where we’d been put, this is where we have to defend, a certain area and, we’ve got so and so behind us and,

that was that. But, there were good Korean units, sure, but, see some of those that shot through might have been young blokes. Didn’t want to get killed, can’t blame them for that, not wanting to get killed. But, there still had to be, discipline. And, you just don’t run out on others. Australians don’t anyhow.

Oh, didn’t think of it. Just thought they were the enemy, I suppose. And, that, that’s it. And, Communism was Communism and, we knew they were fanatics.

And, because they were the enemy, we had to fight them. The, Communistic side to it, I don’t know that I ever thought much about it I was, probably never, never ever thinking about it. For example, the guy in charge at the time, Kim il Sung, oh he was a rabbit. An absolute ratbag. And, he was told what to do by,

Chairman Mao from China and, also, Josef Stalin from Russia. ‘Course Stalin died in ’53 and that changed matters a bit too, in the Korean War. Oh no they were the enemy and that was it. Chinese we didn’t mind so much.

The North Koreans we hated.

The North Koreans were, barbaric and, they were atrocious. An atrocity to them was nothing. But the Chinese were, what we’d call fair dinkum fighters. And, they’d, want to come out into no man’s land and pick up their wounded and we’d let them and, they in turn would let us pick our wounded up. Yeah. They were pretty decent. In fact, a lot of the,

people who went to prison camps, in North Korea, were happy if they transferred from a North Korean camp to a Chinese camp because they were treated much better. But …

Oh murdering and, not taking prisoners and, chopping them to pieces. I was, you remember I was going to tell you something when we were having

morning tea? This happened, and it’s in that little book I gave you, or not book or, those papers. About a few North Koreans, just in the ‘90s, 1990s, executed because they were caught, cutting flesh off, orphans and eating it. Yeah. And another guy was executed because he, they

found carcasses, hanging from the ceiling in his room. That’s how bad they were and he, see they’re starving. And, their President, he’s mad, he’s just putting all his money into armament. So. They were atrocious and as I said Isaw, the aftermath of some of the atrocious acts,

such as, they were skeletal you might as well say, in, in the creeks and what have you with a bullet hole in the back of the skull. Quite a few of them too.

Yeah?

I don’t know I must have been pretty

strong about it and just didn’t worry much. Or I’m a sentimental sort of a bloke I would have felt very sentimental. But, I don’t think I let it get hold of me. In fact I’m pretty sure I didn’t.

Oh I don’t know there’s one guy who might have said, don’t worry about it kid. Come on, don’t worry. I think, old Rexie Ash, yeah. He was a prisoner of war in Changi, during the Second World War. He went to Korea. Lo and behold when I came home and, afterwards got posted to a unit in Tasmania, he was there in the unit and we were together again.

I can’t think of, anything more about the North Koreans. But we hated them because, they were, well, they were brainwashed, put it that way and they used to try to brainwash the

prisoners too. One of our guys, who was a prisoner, he, he refused to be brainwashed and they belted him and starved him and, God know what. And, one stage he was being carted along on a, on a horse and cart. And, some of them were dead on it and he was just thrown on top of them and, left to die and, he he fell off and, hid in a ditch but, he then decided he’d have to go back

because he’d starve and, anyhow he, he went right down in weight and he died. He got the George Cross, which was the highest decoration in Korea for Australia. Slim Madden, yeah. There were three taken at Kapyong and he was one. A couple of others. Strangely enough the three of them were in my platoon, yeah.

Well, Slim Madden, they weren’t too sure because, he might have been, wounded or something and, lost consciousness and they picked him up and took him. Another guy was, blown into a trench. And the Chinese found him and he was buried up to there. And, they took him away,

at [(UNCLEAR)] and made him a prisoner. And the other one, Bob Parker, was our despatch rider on the motorbike. He got blown off his motorbike and, the Chinese came towards him and, he got up and wiped the dust off and he looked at them and laughed and went like that. And they turned around to him and went, like that and laughed. And, they took him prisoner.

He lives in Darwin at the moment. Old Bob, Bob Parker. Yeah. So.

Oh yeah?

Yeah he was hit, at Chongju, are we right?

A leader? He was magnificent.

He was Lieutenant-Colonel at the age of 24 in New Guinea, in command of a Battalion in action. And at age of 25 he got, a Distinguished Service Order, which is the highest in the Battalion, in any Battalion. And.

Colonel Charlie Green. He was our commanding officer and he was sent up from Australia,

to take command of 3 Battalion. And, during the Second World War he was a Lieutenant Colonel at age 24, which is, a record. And he was the youngest colonel ever, to command a Battalion in action. He received a Distinguished Service Order, which is a DSO, for the fighting in New Guinea, when he was 25. Now, he was only

30 when he commanded 3 Battalion. And, at the Broken Bridge, on, or the day after I’m not sure which it was, at Chongju anyhow, on the 30th or the 31st of October, it was all quiet, it must have been the 31st, it was all quiet that day and we were in a position when we thought we were going to have a spell.

And, all of a sudden, whoo, over it came. It hit a tree, outside his little tent and, went right through his stomach, the splinters, and, cut his stomach open. He then, was evacuated through the Americans, and he died of wounds it was a, it was a very sad thing the Battalion, the whole of the Battalion guys were, were so upset

at that happening. And, to this day, I am in communication with his widow. She never ever remarried, she’s a lady of nearly 80 now. And she was doing a Masters degree just recently and she had to give it up because of illness. But, Olwyn, yeah, she, she’s a lovely lady. And the last time I saw her was Anzac Day up in Brisbane. But he,

was the type of guy who would say, don’t listen to me, just follow me. Just follow me. And every man in that Battalion was, full of respect for him. Oh. He was the best. Yep. An absolute, leader. Too right he was. Colonel Charlie Green. Actually, the army was his life because he was in the,

I think he was in the cadets and then he went on to the militia and, he had a commission in that and then he joined the regular, the sorry, the AIF [Australian Imperial Forces] and went away as a lieutenant and, soon went through the ranks to become a lieutenant-colonel. And then, he joined, the regular army in, 1950 or ’49 I think, and came back in as a lieutenant-colonel. And he was doing his course at Staff College at Queenscliff, to be a

Battalion leader if you like or something like that. And, they cut him off that half way through and said you’re going to Korea, to take 3 Battalion. So he didn’t get through his Staff College. But they gave him the letters PSC after his name which is Passed Staff College. And, even to this day you wouldn’t hear a bloke say a word against him, yeah.

He was tall,

rangy, and, very very quiet. And, he wouldn’t smile, and he would do what he thought was the right thing and it was always the right thing, for the troops in the Battalion, yeah. Too right. They reckon he was a great tactician, yeah. Good, extra good. His wife wrote a book called The Name’s Still Charlie and,

yeah, she’s, she’s a wonderful lady too.

Well, we were still, I’ll say in reserve, not so much that we were there for a holiday, but in reserve meant you weren’t in the front line. And, oh the buzz went around and who’s going to be our

new CO [Commanding Officer] and, over, from Japan came Colonel Walsh who was the commanding officer of 3 Battalion before Colonel Green. And he came over in highly polished jackboots and, fur coat and you name it and, he lasted a day I think. And, our 2IC [Second In Command] Major Ian Bruce Ferguson was promoted to Lieutenant-Colonel to take over the Battalion. And, the Brigade

Commander, who was British Army, he said, Walsh, you’re out, Ferguson, you’re in. Yeah. So Walsh was sent back to Japan with his, highly polished boots and, fur coat. And, Fergie took over then. And, everyone knew Fergie because he’d been 2IC also of, he was a Major in the Battalion for years ever since it formed. But no,

Colonel Green he was, extremely, what shall I say? Liked, yeah, and revered, and, everything about him, yeah.

Oh I just can’t remember now. Maybe I rang

her about something and said who I was, like here in Queensland and, we just kept, communicating on, the Internet on the, emails and, writing, telephoning. And, she, at the moment, has got a file on me and plus a lot of other guys and she, used me for some of her work on her thesis for her Masters degree. Which was

on the Korean War. And, she said she’s putting all of her notes, in order, by name of the veteran, into the War Memorial. So, that, pardon me, that’ll be added to a lot of what you’re doing I suppose, I don’t know. But yeah, oh and she, she still rings. And, she’s had some serious operations lately. Bit of cancer I think.

Yeah.

Eh?

Oh yeah the officer commanding the platoon was a captain. And his surname was Watts, so we called him High-Tension. And, his 2IC

was a lieutenant who joined K Force, you know got his commission again. His name was McKenzie, he was a good bloke too. Yeah, they were both good blokes. Platoon Sergeant, Jack Galloway, he’s up in Brisbane have you interviewed him? No? He, Jack was a K Force or Regular Army that’s right and he came up from, Australia as a reinforcement.

And, he, I don’t know whether you want to include this but, I hit him with a, plate of baked beans on night. I’d just come back from a patrol and he started saying, about, this, what’s got to be done about this and that. And, he said, or he started going crook at me and I just let him have it with the baked beans. He said, “Right, you’re going out again,

on patrol.” I just, kept my mouth shut and thought how stupid I was hitting him with the baked beans. And I went out on patrol again the next patrol. Did you hear a car then?

Well, there were all different types of patrols. There were patrols where you’d go out and, try and get a prisoner, and bring back. A fighting patrol where you had to go and fight, in a

certain area to, stop them from, getting through to your area. There were, look-out patrols where you’d have to go and look out and find out where they were situated. Or, you might have to, I don’t know if I mentioned this, did I mention a prisoner? Might have to go out and bring back a prisoner? Yeah. And,

with a patrol you have a forward scout. And the forward scout’s job is to go ahead of the patrol and look around and then look back and, say, right-oh, come on. And then go another leap and bound and then, but there’s also language with, with patrols and, that means come to me and, means over that way or, I can’t remember them

true I can’t. But, you did them. And, when you come back you say, oh well, I’m glad I did that, mm. I feel better now that I’ve done it and, it’s another experience, yeah.

Usually six and, maybe 12 blokes. It would depend on the type of patrol. If you wanted to

take prisoners, they’d be for interrogation and you’d hope to think you’d get an officer who’d, know a bit more but, it was another thing I suppose to get them to open up. I wasn’t into any of that with the interrogation or the, any of the people who were responsible for that. Like the Regimental Police in the Battalion they might do that. Might be the Intelligence

Section, who’d, who’d do it, yeah.

Mainly night. Yeah mainly at night. Because, you’d be too easily seen in the daytime. But, terrible thing if you were going up and down the hills, and you didn’t know where you were going. Oh there were day patrols for sure, yeah.

[(UNCLEAR)] two I did were at night. Whew. Like doing a parachute at night and now knowing where you’re going to land.

“Where are we going? What are we going to do? Yes, are we going to get, ambushed? Are we going to, meet up with them and have a stoush?”

According to the type of patrol you might be told, “Don’t open fire. If they fire at you, don’t open fire.” ‘Cause that way they wouldn’t know you were there or they’d think you’re not there. Oh it’s all, complicated.

Plenty of rocks and trees. Place was loaded with them, with rocks and trees.

Yeah.

I didn’t, no. Not on mine.

Well, we thought we were, we were set.

And the North Koreans were going to surrender and that was the end of the war. And, then, there was a hotline that the Chinese, had come into it, pardon me, and, they were there to, assist their brothers from North Korea, and there were 800-odd thousand I think. Now, that doesn’t mean that the 800,000 crossed the border, there could have been, 400,000 of them

waiting, to come across. But there may have been 400,000 did cross. That’s a lot of men by God it is. And, a number of armies, if you like. And, we were told that the American Division, which was a bit further North than us, was coming through. And, the Chinese were in hot pursuit. So. We just had to wait there and,

fight the rearguard action. In other, in other words, we had to be last out. The, Argyles, the Middlesex and us. And I think the Argyles and Middlesex went before us and we went out last. And we just kept going. And the Chinese just kept coming. And, further and further South and we just kept going further and further south. Until, we got to South Korea

and the Chinese had, come through and re-taken Seoul again. Yeah. Away from us. After us taking it back twice. And then, it was taken back again. It was changed. It changed hands about four times, five times or something. Seoul. But they had the numbers.

Well you

just kept moving and if you were attacked I suppose you had to try and defend yourself. But we weren’t attacked to the best of my knowledge. We weren’t fighting, them. Might have been a few skirmishes. I stand corrected there because I, just can’t remember it was all so sudden. And, the Chinese relied on numbers.

They had the numbers, you know. Ten, if one went down another 10 would jump up in his place. Pick up his rifle. Not all of them had weapons and, it was manpower really. For example at the Battle of Kapyong they were, they were piled something, like 10 high, the dead Chinese.

No I didn’t I wasn’t at Kapyong. I was back in Japan. But I went back to Korea after Kapyong, yeah. Which was the next stage of the service I suppose.

We didn’t see them as we were doing the advance in another direction I call it. As we were, tailing

the, Americans. Didn’t see them coming at us, I can’t recall that at all and I’m sure, they knew, they were very, very smart, with their, intelligence the Chinese. Very smart. And they were good hard soldiers too. Not like the North Koreans the mongrels but the Chinese were good fighters. In fact, the Chinese didn’t have a rank of Private like we do.

Their lowest rank was Fighter. And they had Fighter, Class 1 2 3 4 5 and so on. And, if you were a Class 1 Fighter you were a, pretty good soldier, yeah.

Oh, “I want to be a Returned Soldier.” Yeah “Just, let’s hope we get out of their way in enough time,” and, we did, yeah. And then, it went down to a place called Uijongbu where, I was out of the Battalion by this and a bit of fighting took place there.

Dysentery, yeah.

Well, it could have been, it’d have to be the food. And I certainly didn’t drink any Korean water, no way. But, with the food and, being greasy food and what have you and, maybe not having true vitamins I don’t know but I was bad with it and I was bleeding and, the doctor, Battalion doctor, evacuated me

straight away to an American MASH [Mobile Army Surgical Hospital] And I tell you, that’s true, about the MASH, that you see on TV. Oh God yeah. Make their own booze. Yeah. Yep it’s all true.

Getting around, chasing the nurses and, pretty rough and ready. Nothing regimental about them.

But, they certainly made their own grog with, alcohol and fruit juice, yeah.

I don’t know I can’t remember. Oh, they they just seemed like proper doctors. But at one stage they had a plane and they evacuated us from the MASH And we were, last, to get on the plane and we helped each other. But

the staff of the MASH were first on the plane. Yeah. But the patients were last on the place, yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, there’s nothing to talk about really, it was just a case of come on we’re moving. And the plane was there and a makeshift airstrip and, on the plane and out.

The Chinese weren’t far away according to them. I didn’t see them. They said they were up on the hill but I didn’t see them.

Yeah. That’s an awful thing.

Well you feel as if your stomach’s going to, you’re going to lose your stomach. And, I had to have, enemas, which is where they wash your bowel out and,

sigmoidoscopies where they put a rod, into your bowels, with a little globe on the end of it and, takes pictures and, goodness knows what. And, when I, got out of the army I had the same thing happen to me and, I was examined and they said that there was a case of colitis and,

that was because of, what happened to me in Korea. But I was in hospital in Japan, back in Japan for about, three months I suppose. Yeah. And eventually when I was, put back into shape with proper food I guess that’s what, fixed me up. I must have had a low resistance, system going at the time.

And, it would have been a sure death had I stayed there.

Oh in hospital at, the, British Commonwealth Base Hospital, I had a few of the boys in to see me and, Sister Robinson who,

I went back to Japan with, or, she was home on leave and on the plane that I went on to go to Japan originally. And she was at the wharf when I went to Korea and waved to mean and, she was there and she came to see me and, when I was able to get around a bit, she took me up to the officers’ mess where the nurses were and took me in there and, oh I thought I was made, being allowed in the

officers’ mess with the nurses. But it was a pretty dull sort of an existence in the hospital there. And when I came out I went to the Reinforcement Holding Unit at, Hiro, yeah. And there I stayed until I went back to Korea in May or June I’m not sure which. Might have been at the end of May. And I went to the newly-formed Commonwealth Division.

So, that’s the start of another episode.

Well, when you say, what was it like to fight, you mean, when we were in action?

Oh what, in Korea?

I don’t think we ever worried or thought about it.

No it was just taken par for the course that you were in action you can’t have women around. Even the nurses would have been, okay in the MASHs but, not, right up North and in action, no. Well, you’d hate to think of a girl, being taken prisoner by the North Koreans, oh.

The Holding …

I went back to Korea with the Commonwealth Division when it formed. And, there were a few other Australians and I was in Medical Corps then I was transferred to Medical Corps. And, I, had to, keep communications going, with the Commonwealth Division

of the Battalions for evacuations with helicopters and what have you. And, there was a big stoush, not Kapyong but the next one, Maryang San. And Operation Commando they were together. And, there were helicopters used for them because the casualties were pretty, pretty heavy. And I kept them up, to that and, because I was,

on it day and night I got a mention in despatches. Which, I didn’t know about before I got home, and it was, 12 months later, or six months later I found out about it, ‘cause it had to go through the process and be publicised, promulgated in the, British London Gazette and the Australian Gazette, yeah. So,

that’s, you know what a mention in despatches is? Yeah, a little oak leaf cluster, that you put on the medal, ribbon.

What, with the …

Oh. Might be a message come through with the Signals Branch saying there’s a,

a number to be evacuated and their, map reference number, so and so and, get on the line to the Americans and, there was a straight through line and, a code name and all the rest of it. Get it through and, that’s day and night too incidentally. But, not too many of them went out at night. I’m sure they didn’t. But they’d get them back in the helicopters, yeah.

And that’s the first time helicopters were used, to evacuate wounded. Bell helicopters, Sikhorski helicopters, yeah. You must be learning a lot about the army, doing all these are you?

Yeah.

Well you see them on MASH, the same. Just have one stretcher on either side of them. And, fixed, stretchers tied

down and, off they go and, whoever’s wounded, would probably be worrying he was going to fall off or something but no there was no hope, no show of that. And they’d take them straight to a MASH and, there they’d be fixed. Oh it was, a lot of people say, “Oh you’re in, Divisional Headquarters,”

and, “But you weren’t in the front line,” but, you don’t have to be in the front line to fight in a war, or to do anything in a war. I used to get a jeep now and then and, shoot up to our Battalion and, see a few of the guys, say hello. And, then come back. But you couldn’t go too far because, you wouldn’t know what, what to expect up further up. But we were never bombed or,

shot at at Divisional Headquarters, ever, no.

Oh they were all right. They were miserable. Pretty miserable. We we used to have, cooked meals, which was a welcome change I suppose. But at 4 o’clock in the afternoon you’d have mincemeat on toast. Because they,

call that, tea. Whereas we say, oh, we’re going out for tea tonight. But tea to them was 4 o’clock, mincemeat on toast. And dinner, was about 7 or 7.30. And that was another meal, yeah.

Oh well the poor devils, I shouldn’t use that term or knock them but, they weren’t given much, by way of payment.

Their wages were, were shocking. Oh. Look I can tell you a case of a guy, who’s in our association here, on the Gold Coast but he lives in Brisbane. And, he was in the Black Watch, British Black Watch. And, he was a National Servicemen and, all the Brit nasho’s went overseas, and he was given a stripe made a Lance Corporal.

And it was sixpence a day, extra in his pay. And lo and behold six months before the Armistice he got taken prisoner. And, when he got out, they, didn’t give him the stripe to put up and he said, “Where is it?” And they said, “Oh it was taken from you, because you wouldn’t have needed it in the prison camp.” So he lost his first rank, of Lance Corporal and his sixpence a day. Money,

yeah. And that’s real misery I reckon to do that. They even used to charge, the families of these guys, for a blanket, if they got killed and had to be wrapped in a blanket.

The?

Well the Brits were very regimental, oh. “ Sir sir, three bags full.”

But the Australians, “How’re you going?” We didn’t go around saluting. And I believe that you shouldn’t have to salute in the field. Because, you’re a sitting target and so is the officer, if you salute or more so the officer, if you salute him. There could be a sniper hidden in a tree somewhere, who’ll just go ‘bang.’ And that officer is no longer,

that officer. But, they insist on their salutes and they love it and their clicking of their heels and standing to attention.

Didn’t. Didn’t, no. I was, although I had a… I came directly under a British Major, followed by a Colonel, a full Colonel. But, I only worried about him I didn’t worry about the others. They didn’t like the Australians they

thought we were a rough, and ready. We were too. Yeah.

Oh they had an American base of course, they came from an American organisation or unit. And, I couldn’t even tell you where it was, I didn’t know. Sometimes the major would organise

them. But, they were quite, quite good yeah, very good. Roger, out and all the rest of them.

Well it would depend on where, they were, to be picked up. There might be a marker you see for them to land. And, that being the case, although

they were taken back to a MASH and from there they would go on, probably to their own base, yeah.

Oh the new role was much easier. And I’d say this less dangerous. But still the first one, wasn’t dangerous if you used your head. The right way.

But then again. They were still real bullets and they hurt.

When I came home in 1952, in February, they were, they had started the peace talks at Kaesong. And then they were worried about a demarcation line and who was going to grab that bit of, ground and who was going to grab that. And instead of being

separated at the 38th Parallel, it came that, the, North Koreans wanted part of South Korea. And then they, let South Korea have part of North Korea, over on the eastern side. But, that area they let South Koreans have on the Eastern side was useless. It was just rocks and hill. Whereas they got the good part, down on the West Coast, the Yellow Sea.

Yeah.

It was still, action. Fighting, actions, through the hills, in South Korea. And, through the snow, it was rotten with snow then.

Up until Pakchon. I’m sorry, Kapyong. And, when, the Kapyong Battle occurred, it happened, because, a South Korean Division, vacated, their, their line, the front line. And then, there was a great line of refugees

and yeah they were a big problem in Korea, refugees, coming down the Kapyong Valley. And, 3 Battalion, in replacing the South Koreans, had to guard the Kapyong Valley and, these people, the refugees, had Chinese, mingled with them. A lot of people thought that the 3 Battalion fought the North Koreans, at Kapyong but they didn’t they were Chinese. And then over on

the western side, the glorious Gloucesters, from the British Army, were fighting, the Chinese on the Imjin River. And, they were all, they all surrendered, they had to, they were surrounded. And, they were taken away as prisoners and their colonel got a Victoria Cross. Colonel Carne. Now, I mention this because, where they were on the Imjin River, and our blokes

were in Kapyong Valley, they were the two avenues, down through to Seoul, from the ancient days when, Korea used to be, get invaded. And they were the, main lines for the invasions. So, after Kapyong it became, a war, of attrition if you like. I’m sorry,

let’s go on to Maryang San. Yeah. And then after Maryang San, which was in, October 1951, it became a war of attrition and, a trench war where they were dug in and not moving. And, if anyone got killed they were replaced. And that happened all the time. And it was like no man’s land in World War I,

opposite each other and ‘Bang bang bang.’ But as I said it was a war for real estate. And the North Koreans wanted this and they wanted that. I’m sorry the Chinese wanted this and wanted that. And, they did it for North Korea and the North Koreans may well have said, “We want this and we want that”, as well. So that’s the way the war ended until, Operation,

Hook, on the Hook, right at the end. The day before there were some, casualties, blokes killed the day before the Armistice was signed. They’d be stiff wouldn’t they? That’s not a pun either. To be killed, on that particular day. That was, with 2 Battalion, the Royal Australian Regiment, and a Company of, 3 Battalion D Company I think, at the time.

Yeah.

Pretty rough fighters. And, they had the numbers. And, but they were pretty strong disciplinarians. And, they would always retrieve their wounded. And, take

them away. And, we’d respect, that, from there, and, they’d do the same thing with us.

Well if it was all quiet on the Western front, they’d just come out, and maybe wave their hands and, go like that, to pick up their wounded and off they’d go. They wouldn’t come out with a white flag

because, that’d be surrendering, yeah. But they were fighters and, they used to fight, my word they did. After the Armistice was signed, the next day, they came out, over to our side, apparently. And shook hands with our guys. Because it’s all over you see. That was on the 27th of July 1953

when, the weather was, good, it was warm, yeah. But, they would storm, into action, with the numbers. And it didn’t matter how many got killed there was always more behind them, to, follow up. And that was the case at Pakyong, Pak, sorry, Kapyong, they just kept coming, yeah.

Because, with the numbers that were killed, they just, kept coming after them. And, we’ll call it as like a reinforcement, if you like and pick up their weapons, and use them, yeah.

The reaction would have been, just keep firing at them, if they keep coming,

somewhere, I don’t where it is, I’ve got a photo of Kapyong and it’s, it was a painting, actually. And a real good one, by Ivor Hele I think I’m I’m not sure who did the painting but, they were, sort of scrambling over, the position. And, when that happens you have to go back a bit, and try and get back at them. But,

not having been at Kapyong I know a lot about it because I give a speech each year down at the Southport RSL [Returned and Services League]. I, give the Kapyong Address. And, I’ve, I’ve got my own notes on that and, I have to re-write them each year according to how much time I’ve got. But it’s it’s a fascinating thing and, our guys got the, American

Presidential Citation, for the Battle of Kapyong. And the, New Zealand Artillery who, who had backed us, they got the South Korean Presidential Citation. And there was an American Battalion, a tank Battalion who got, the American Presidential Citation. And so did, the, first Battalion of the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, who came in, with 3 Battalion

and, stayed there. And 3 Battalion went back, to rest, yeah.

Yeah. They would blow trumpets. Little weeny trumpets about that big, and that meant they were going to charge. And,

then they’d come over in their hordes. And they had women with them too you know. Yeah. And so did the North Koreans. Just to, go back a bit, to, I think it was Chongju, one stage one night. They were yelling out, “Bluey, Bluey.” And you’d think it was one of your own. “Over here, over here mate”. And, “Stay there don’t take any notice

of it.” And, there were women, on the North Korean side then. They, were, not only nurses but they were fighters too. But to get back to the Chinese. They would blow their trumpets and charge, ‘whoo!’ And, they, I think they had Burp guns too. A Burp gun’s a machine gun and, North Koreans certainly had them. ‘Cause we knocked any

off we’d, we’d take their guns from them, yeah.

Bit frightening. ‘Cause, you’d know that they’re, they’re going to come in. Maybe with bayonets and all but, point is if you were prepared for it well, they’d just get mowed down.

Attitude?

Chinese, we had a bit of admiration for them as fighters, but none whatever for the North Koreans as fighters. I wouldn’t say we admired them the North, the Chinese. But we, sort of considered them to be, worthy, worthier, opponents than the North Koreans. And that proved itself in the prison

camps the way the North Koreans treated our blokes. Yeah. That Colonel Carne of the Gloucesters, that I mentioned before, he, because he was a Commanding Officer and a Lieutenant-Colonel, they didn’t like him, the North Koreans, they put him in a hole in the ground for 18 months. Yeah.. No light or anything. Imagine, when the poor devil came out.

Yeah. Just before they were taken prisoner they were surrounded and he, he was fighting them with a rifle and bayonet. The Commanding Officer , yeah. Setting a fine example. Chinese though, well no enemy’s a good enemy I suppose. But now, you take the Turks, and present day Aussies. Best of mates.

Well it may happen with the Chinese who knows? But see that word Communism comes into it too. And it may well, subside, I don’t know. I wouldn’t go out of my way to, entertain Chinese. But if I was introduced to any of them I’d say, “How are you?” ‘Cause, I have a, I don’t know, not an angiogram but, some sort of machine to check my heartbeat and all

that sort of jazz and, the woman who does it is Chinese. And she said, “What war were you in?” And I said, “the Korean War” and she, she laughed. And, she said, “Who fought in that?” I said, “Chinese,” I said, “Why are you Chinese?” And she said, “Yeah.” I said, “Where do you come from?” She said, “Beijing”. And, she said, “And you fought the Chinese eh?” I said, “Yep, had no option.” Oh, she quietened down a bit then.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh we got on okay. The Turks, for example, just prior to Kapyong, which was on, 23, 24 April, there was going to be a big do, with the Australians

and the Turks, getting together, for Anzac Day on the 25th and of course it couldn’t happen, because, of that. But the Turks, oh, they were, they were good soldiers, good fighters and they loved the Australians, oh yeah. When I, was evacuated back to Japan, I was in, from the MASH I was put in an American hospital at, Fukuoka

and there were some Turks in there. And one of them called out to me he wanted to show me his wound. He’s had a bullet through the leg, in there and out there. And he used to put his finger through the hole like that. And say, “Mm mm. Yeah. Me Turk, me Turk.” They didn’t, they wouldn’t surrender. There were a few taken prisoner. They were pretty tough guys.

Pretty tough cookies. “Yeah me Turk.”

Well, the Americans, we got on all right with them and the Canadians. One we didn’t like very much was the Canadian, French Canadian Battalion [2nd Battalion, Royal 22nd Regiment], the ‘Vandoos’ [from the French word for 22, Vingt-Deux]. They were pretty dirty.

Hygiene. Oh there were other,

there were Belgians. Filipinos. But, we didn’t see them all. They were, a lot of them were attached to American, outfits. Indian [(UNCLEAR)], Norwegian Mobile Army Surgical Hospital. I think there was a Swedish ship, hospital ship. And an Italian Medical Unit. But, oh I’ve got a

list of them there somewhere but, you know it’s …

Oh, terrific, yeah. They fought as ANZACs and, you know we’re, always together.

No, it was all good, good natured business with us, yeah.

And the Maoris, well, they wouldn’t hear a thing said against Australians. They were good mates yeah. They were wild men too. One of them let me have a bit of a drive of his jeep and he said, “Now come on, we’ll go up and down out here,” oh God I had people going everywhere because, I didn’t have my licence at home and, that’s where I first learnt to drive, in the jeep. They’re a lovely little job to drive.

My God they are. Yeah. Oh. (Interruption)

Yeah. May as well.

Mm.

No, you see, some were buried, in the area, where it happened, and later their bodies might have been exhumed. Like Colonel Green was buried, up, up North, way up North and his body was exhumed and, sent South and, he’s now at Pusan in the UN [United Nations] Cemetery.

But, nothing but sadness I think that’s, that’s more the better word than anything, about those who were, who were killed and they were wrapped in groundsheets, and you knew they were dead of course. It, took a lot of, lot men, we had 339 killed. And that’s a lot of men.

1218, wounded. And, thirt- 29 prisoners of war, yeah.

That stick in my memory that got killed? Yeah, I can’t think of his name but, he had a twin brother. And, he went down the hill to, roll a body over and

get the rifle and, use it because he’d run out and all this jazz and it was his twin brother, yeah. And that was, that was pretty sad. Old Joey Longmore, the one I mentioned before who, left a wife and seven daughters, he was, I reckon, he was over 60 I’m sure. He should never have been in Korea. That was sad. And, of course,

Bernie, Goldsmith but I wasn’t there ‘cause he was killed at Kapyong and, he’s buried down south at Pusan now. And I met his widow on the return, last, few weeks back. And, that was at Kapyong, and I laid a wreath on our 3 Battalion monument. And on the way back from there she, was taken from the bus and put in the police

car, and they took her up the hill to where, her husband, was killed and showed her the spot. Must have been a bit tear jerking for her. But she was so pleased that I spoke to her and mentioned the mouth organ he had. And he had it through the Second World War. He was a good bloke Bernie I was, devastated when I heard, and I was back in Japan then when, when I heard that he’d been killed in Korea.

Oh yeah, well there was a big service for Colonel Green and a lot of people went, went to that but that was in North Korea. But, I just can’t remember, any of the actual burials and services of, some of our dead. But, there were not

I don’t think there were too many forgotten or or left, I’m pretty sure they were all taken care of. But they may well have been, sent, to Pusan. I can’t answer that one I’m sorry. But I did have a photo or painting of Colonel Green’s funeral. And, I remember the chaplain who buried him because his name was Laing. But a different spelling. L-A-I-N-G he was. Padre Laing. He’s dead now.

‘Course a lot died of wounds, later on in hospitals too. And only last year they found another one, when I say 339 killed, they found another one who’d died of wounds. And he was a war correspondent. So really it’s 340 because they were considered as servicemen, yeah.

Mmm. No the old story was, if your name’s on it you’ll cop it.

Well, if, if you missed a bullet, they say your name wasn’t on it. Yeah.

I was a bit frightened yeah I’d be telling a lie if I wasn’t, a bit frightened. But, I always thought positively I guess. And, it was a case of “Oh God, thank God that’s over.” And then, while that’s over

there’s something else ready to start.

In Korea. Well it was there all the time. And you had to accept it. You know you you might think, it can’t keep happening but it does happen and, gee that’s sad that’s

awful or, how many’s that now and, I remember at one place, I think it might have been Chongju too. A number of wounded lying down, off the road, and one of them, the body, he was just going, and he’d been shot through the head. It was a sergeant who trained me in the rookie days yeah. Old Fitzy, Fitzpatrick.

And, he was from Western Australia. He was a Second World War guy too. And, he hadn’t long been married before he went to Korea. The first person, to be killed in Korea was Captain Hummerston and he’d only been married, maybe a few months I think, before he went to Korea. And, he and his driver,

Sketchly, his name was, they went through an area that was mined and, boom. Up they went. They were on a bren gun carrier. They were the first two within, within a week of, arriving in Korea I think. Yep.

The Chinese.

Yeah, well, a bit south and all around. And then, the big push came forward again. To push, the Chinese, back, over the border and, the peace talks started and we

pushed them back and, they didn’t care about Seoul and, they didn’t care about numbers. It was futile, going on with it, because it was chop and change all the time kangarooing. So, they decided, it’s a war of, real estate, real estate I should say. So, they just had

meetings, every week, Panmunjom then. And, they’d come in to this day, they go to Panmunjom, and they sit down on the stairs, ten minutes, look at each other and the Koreans get, North Koreans get up and walk out. That’s it. Nothing is said. And no advancement. Silly isn’t it?

What was?

Oh, well, I wasn’t there, when that move came back through Seoul, the last time I mean. That was, after the Chinese, came right through from, Manchuria, right through. I’d been, put in a MASH hospital then.

But, they just took over Seoul apparently from what I know, and, all the women were dancing with them and, then when they’d go they’d dance with, the Americans and. So, anyhow.

Well we were always saying we’d be home for Christmas and, it won’t be long now the peace talks are on but, did little did we know that they’d still be going 50 years later on. ‘Cause we figured they, that’d be it. And we had no idea it was just going to be an Armistice. No Peace Treaty.

Peace Treaty. Cessation, of hostilities and, no one won the war no one lost the war and, just go back to where you were and forget about it don’t, don’t have any more fights. Let’s finish it. That was the general impression or feeling, I’m sure.

Well, we could have done that, before the Chinese came in.

But it was impossible, after the Chinese came in, because of, the weight of numbers. And the fact that they were Communist and so were the North Koreans. And, they had Russia too. See it was only a, Punch and Judy show with North Korea. They were the bunnies. It was really instigated by, Russia. ‘Cause as you know I guess, the Japanese occupied, Korea.

And then it was divided after the war, when the Japanese were, beaten. And, of course the Commos, took over the north and the, Americans the south.

Mm?

One sad little thing was, sitting, sitting on the beach, down south somewhere it might have been Pusan. I was eating some sandwiches and, little kids were coming around starving and I ended up giving them to them. And, I threw some crusts away and, they started fighting over the crusts and, one bloke, ended up with a blood nose and, I stopped them fighting.

But, oh yeah that was pretty sad I guess and it was apart from the war. But, if, if I’ve got a bad, part that I still remember? Oh, that, carrying that old lady out. When she died, in my arms I suppose. When Colonel Green got killed.

Seeing that, bloke I was going to take prisoner get shot, in front of me, right between the eyes. Oh at the Apple Orchard too yeah. I remember seeing an American jeep, with a North Korean prisoner. And he had, it was cold, and he had him sitting on the bonnet of the jeep, driving him up and down

the track, down the bottom of the hill, with no clothes on. And he’d pull up, and the guy’d fall off and I thought oh he’s going to run over him and kill him. But just yell at him to get back on and, that was, shocking, I thought, of the Americans to do that. But still, I’m a sentimentalist. And, I guess you think of these things I suppose. And you’d think and say well, we don’t want it to happen to our guys.

I can’t think of any others. Oh maybe when you go I’ll think of lots of things.

My best memory? Leaving Korea. Oh I wouldn’t say it was a, lovely place by any means. But see the people of South Korea were very poor and they were

farmers. And the people up in north were industrial people but, they didn’t have much left it was whoo. Just a rubble. Their dams were bombed, their, water supplies, their trains, decimated, the villages were blown sky high the, factories, boom, that’s the end of them. All these things

sort of happened and, at one stage, they were without power for two weeks, North Korea. What are those funny little things? Notes notes?

Oh.

No. Not at all. It was a waste of, money. And a waste, of people. I mean the casualties, about 3,000,000 on both sides. That’s that’s awful. And, now, the Koreans, don’t care about the Armistice. They, all they’re interested in as you’ll read in that little paper I gave you

about, getting on with the economy. You see they, celebrate the start of the war, 25th of June. They don’t celebrate the Armistice or the finish of it. And, in so doing, they believe that, there’s no, peace treaty been signed so, how can they celebrate, a peace? They can only celebrate the start of it

Which is what they do, 25th of June. They even do it here, on the Coast. Yeah, we go to the functions, for the Koreans. 25th of June every, every year. And I get up and say the Ode, and we make a bit of a speech for them and, then they put on a luncheon oh it’s pretty good, yeah. They’re big hearted people.

What do I think about … ?

Well it’s politics, not people, mm. Except, the powers. Then it became people, in politics, yeah.

The, President of South Korea at the time was, old, Syngman Rhee. And, he’d been in jail for 8 years he was corrupt he was rotten. Don’t know if you’ve heard about him, yeah. And, he at one stage told the Brits, to take us and the Kiwis and get out of Korea.

Pardon me. Yeah. He wasn’t liked at all.

No. No. Because they believed we were there to save them, yeah. Which was the sole purpose of us being there. And to try and stop the war.

But how could you? It was up and down it was like a blooming escalator. But we didn’t get back into North Korea and go forward again. Pardon me.

Yeah?

Oh it was a big hospital, it was, it was an army hospital or, services hospital.

It was called the British Commonwealth Occupation Force Base Hospital. And later it became the BCFK [British Commonwealth Forces Korea] Base Hospital, British Commonwealth Forces in Korea where, the wounded were taken back too after they were, evacuated from, Korea. And in some cases maybe they went straight to Tokyo. Like the Americans went to Tokyo they didn’t come

south to, BCOF Hospital. Or BCFK Hospital as it became. Yeah.

Oh sure yeah, blokes there with, an arm blown of for, an ear cut off or, anything you like I’m just exaggerating there but, oh yeah there were different types of wards.

They all thought it was great to be having a, bludge I think, yeah. Typical Australian attitude.

Oh they were pretty good, yeah. Pretty good. “Don’t give me any of your cheek mate.” “Yeah. Oh right-oh Sis.”

No, not me I was a good little boy.

Yeah.

Well. I don’t know. I do remember, one bloke, calling out, hey Sister “Quick quick quick come here, come here.” And she’d go, “What’s the matter with you?” “Give us a kiss love.” You know all that sort of thing, yeah. And then I spent some time in

Heidelberg Hospital, after I got out of the army. And, one bloke, used to call out, he was [(UNCLEAR)] a 14- 18 bloke [World War I veteran], “Sister come here quick.” And she’d go, “What’s wrong Cyril? If you behave yourself, you can kiss my bum.” Yeah. No but the BCOF Hospital it was good and, well organised.

But no one wants to be in hospital for too long though, yeah.

Oh I felt, relieved, I guess that, I was out of it. And, it was, my way of thinking was it was a no good place, for any man or beast. Korea. No. It

wasn’t, any good at all. And lots of people would say the same thing. But now after going back there everyone says, “Oh isn’t it marvellous, the way they’ve built it up again,” and, all this jazz. But you see they’re too busy making money, now.

Changed me? Oh, it matured me.

My outlook on life. When I came home and, caught up with some of my schoolmates and, old mates that we used to play football together at Hawthorn and. I don’t know. I somehow felt, that, the friendship with those guys, wasn’t the same as what I had, with the guys in the army. The, friendship in the army

and camaraderie cannot be beaten anywhere. It’s a different ball game altogether. I mean you give your mate in the army your, last cigarette you’d break in half and give him half. It was, that sort of thing but, when you get home to, the guys who were, your mates before you joined the army and went to school with and knocked about with, it was different.

Oh no I’d have to ask some questions about, this that and the other and, they’d ask me questions about what I’d done and where I’d been and …

Oh well, “How many did you shoot?” Silly things and, “Did you get wounded?” And, all that sort of jazz. But …

Just tell them the truth. But I wouldn’t tell them, about shooting no. That’s, that’s to me is

sacred. And, I wouldn’t talk about that. About getting wounded I wasn’t wounded except, I got a bit of, shrapnel in the back of my neck here. Only a little weeny piece I didn’t even go off duty I stayed on duty it was nothing.

Yeah?

Oh gee you’re a villain. No I I don’t think it’s,

it’s a big deal to say, “Oh yeah look, when we were there I killed, 17,” “When I was there I killed 12,” “When I was there I didn’t get any,” and all this jazz. And, I remember, in Korea, the night before we left there was a dinner on and there was an American guy there got up, on the, microphone and, he talked about, his killing of, Koreans and Chinese, when he was in

Korea. And he got a Congressional Medal of Honour which is equivalent of our Victoria Cross. And he was a bit, lot missing. And, one fellow said, “Oh get him off, don’t let him stay on the microphone he’s telling everyone how many he’d killed and when and and, what, what time” and, with Australians it’s it’s something that’s, oh I suppose sacred’s a good enough word. You just don’t talk about people. Or about to people I mean

about, how many you killed.

No. No. It’s, it’s out of my mind, yeah. So I wouldn’t have even thought of it, had you not mentioned it, Yeah. Oh there, lots of gung ho blokes who’d, be only too pleased to talk about it.

But, how do you know? I mean, you might. You might be, you might hit one and he/s, he’s gone and you don’t know whether he’s dead or he’s just staggered off but, it’s a rotten thing, having to try and kill someone. Isn’t it? Oh yeah.

Maybe, yeah. I, considered myself a different person when I came

home. And, actually, I got home on the Tuesday and on the Saturday I got put in jail. On the Saturday night for being drunk.

Eh?

When the war ended, I was home, 1953.

Okay. We came home on an American, I’m sorry a British ship. A troop ship called the HMS Devonshire and it was manned by, Royal Aust-, Royal Air Force, personnel. It was a pleasant enough trip through the islands and, what have you and home. Landed in Sydney. Disembarked. On a train for, Melbourne. The family were there to meet me.

Then we went to Royal Park and got paid for our leave I had about two months leave, coming to me, yeah. And, we used to meet in Melbourne, lot of the guys who’d come home from Korea, the London Hotel and, have lunch there and a few drinks and, chew the fat a bit and, that’s when you talk to each other about, the old place, we’d say the Queer Place.

That was the name we gave it, the Queer Place. Or Frozen Chosen. Because, Chosin was, their original name for Korea. And we’d call it ‘Frozen Chosin’. And, it was, it was a good leave we, went everywhere and then, I stayed in the army for 16 years. And I, was posted to,

Kapooka. And from there I went and did a clerical course I think I mentioned all this didn’t I?

Well, it was, more of less laying around in the sunshine on the on the deck and watching the flying fish, jumping up out of the water. And we called in at Manus Island. North of New Guinea where there was a, prison camp there for the Japanese.

And, we just pulled into to Sydney it was, no big deal I suppose being on board the ship. It was great to get back.

Oh great, yeah. I can remember when the train pulled in. And, they were all there in a group and, my carriage went past them and,

my, brother-in-law at the time, yelled out, “There he is, there he is!” And I was standing in the door and they turned around and, I jumped off and, my aunt came, rushing up to me and put her arms around me and poor Mum she was standing there, bewildered a bit and I headed straight for her and, put my arms around her and, then the whole family you know they were all there brothers sisters and, aunties and uncles. And, then went home.

At the time there was a beer shortage I don’t know whether there was a beer strike or something and they had a brew of beer called Bovan. And I brought some of that to, give everyone a drink and oh it was shocking stuff. From there, I went to Kapooka. Did a course. Then went to Tasmania and I was there for 12 months. And,

from there I went back to Puckapunyal and, all over the place and, went to Maralinga, in 1956, to the atomic testing grounds.

Right.

No. Nothing.

Well, we didn’t come home as a Battalion. We came home as individuals. And, as a result there, there was no, counselling

or anything like that. It just, a, just home you know and, whereas some of the, 1 and 2 Battalions came home as Battalions and they were greeted and marched, all this jazz. But our Battalion, 3, came home in ’54 and marched through Melbourne and, at the time I was up in Puckapunyal and asked if I wanted to march with them. And they formed a composite company and, we marched in that

company, with them through the streets of Melbourne it was great yeah. But that’s all. We never got a welcome home or, any such thing. The RSL [Returned and Services League] didn’t want to know us. No. They kept saying, it’s a police action. Now, the term police action, came from President Truman. Because, he sent troops to America, to, fight. And, he didn’t

go through Congress. And of course they’re the only ones who can approve troops fighting overseas. So he had to call it police action. And that’s what he did. And that’s, how the term police action started and not, that it was a Korean War. And to this day people say it wasn’t a war it was police action. And I get aggro over that. I let them have it. Verbally of course.

You wouldn’t know. Do you know why it was called police action? No. Do you know why you say it wasn’t a war? Yeah, because it was police action. Well you’re wrong I’m sorry. And I explain it to them and they still can’t, can’t wear it no they’re. So I don’t bother about it.

Well, they believed that it wasn’t a war and that we shouldn’t

be allowed in there because it wasn’t a war declared on Australia. We only sent troops, to Korea. And this was some of the dyed in the wool guys that, that eventually, stopped. I became a member of the RSL. But some of the sub-branches I joined the Melbourne branch and I was admitted straight away. But some of the sub-branches, out in the districts, suburban, areas, they didn’t.

Oh, pretty hurt, I might add. And a lot of the guys too. They were, pardon me, really hurt. But that soon blew over.

Always, yeah. But, we don’t call it the ‘forgotten war’. On our letterhead I designed it, and I’ve got, the words, We Remember, with a, dove of peace flying through the words

We Remember. And, I’ve tried my damnedest to have that, come anywhere on paper, with the Korean War. We Remember.

How what?

Oh well I just, treat it with disdain now and say, “Oh, they wouldn’t know, they wouldn’t understand,”

so, forget it, don’t worry about it. Because, it’s, it’s been going on for over 50 years and how are you going to change it? I’d like to think I could but, what, what am I going to achieve? If I do change it, from the ‘forgotten war’ to, ‘We remember the Korean War’, something like that. But those words, ‘We Remember’ I, use them whenever I can. And, I think, that’s a good thing.

What, in the … ?

Yeah, oh yeah, sure.

What about joining?

Oh I’m Secretary of the Association of Queensland Korean Veterans, yeah sure. I’m a Life Member of the Korean Veterans Association of Australia. [Unclear] in Melbourne. I’m a Life Member

of our association here. I’m on three committees down in, Southport, at, Veterans’ Affairs. Called Veterans Affairs Network Committees and, I’m the, Korean War representative on that, on one of them. I’m also on their Health Week Committee. And I’m also in their Peer Group Leader group, giving lectures to the public

if needed. And, in Canberra, I’m on the Korean Veteran Mortality Study, and the Korean Veteran Cancer Study and the Korean Veteran Health Study. That’s three up there. And, at one stage, uh-oh is that right? Yeah. And at one stage I was, on the, Consultative Committee for the Australian National Korean War Memorial which, was dedicated in 2000.

Yeah.

Interest. I, started in one and you get, get it starting to build up and, then you see something that’s historical and you pull it out you put it in your folder. If you, on your way out have a look in that study and you’ll see, folder after folder. It’s all Korean stuff, yeah. Which gives me the chance to answer any question, that’s put to me.

Yeah.

Well. The officer commanding the unit I was with at Puckapunyal, at the time in ’56, it was in, oh I’m not sure, June I think ’56, called me into his office he said, “You’re being transferred.” He didn’t like me and I didn’t like him.

He was a, British Army officer you see, and he came out here to reinvent the wheel. And he said, “You’re going, a long way away. You’ve been requested there by a Colonel. He asked for you to go there and, you’ll be going any day. I’m not at liberty to tell you because it’s top secret.” I thought, “What’s this? What this?” you know. So anyhow, eventually, got my tickets and my, papers

and oh, had to go to Adelaide and I still didn’t know. And when I got to Adelaide they told me I was going up to Maralinga to the atomic range. So up I went and, I became the Chief Clerk, at the range, in charge of Navy Army and Air Force records. And, it was a pretty, closed camp area. No, no women there and, no cameras no rifles.

And, I was there for four detonations. The first one 20, miles away. And the other three, a mile and a half away. And, you couldn’t see the actual, you couldn’t look at the, flash. They’d give you that in the countdown they say, “Flash, turn!” And you could turn around and just see the ball of fire. Yeah.

And, on the last, one, we were there it was at night. And we were allowed to go into the, Operations Room and they had a big machine there like a Wurlitzer organ. A big half round organ. And, when the, scientists came in, they had to put a key in. And so on. And that could not be detonated until, 19 keys were put in there.

And that would mean everyone was out of Ground Zero. And then the weapons, the atomic weapons chief, would put the main key in and, turn it, ‘Whoomph!!’ Up it goes, yeah.

Well it’s a magnificent sight I can tell you that. When we turned around and look, we’d see a great big mushroom of smoke, and above it, a big

ball of fire. Ohh. Nearly break your neck to look right up at it. And, eventually the smoke cloud, floats across the country and they had them, worked out so that it would float across past Queensland and out into the sea. And then just, evaporate. But it was an atomic cloud of course. And, they used to have, I think they were

Beaufighters, RAAF planes flying through the c-, the cloud. And, we were always tested for radiation to see if we had, copped anything. It was all, top secret the whole area. One day an Aboriginal and his, wife, and, little piccaninny came through the area and,

phew, didn’t she smell. Phwoar, she was vile. And we had to put them into the decontamination chamber. And get them cleaned up and she screamed her head off, the husband didn’t, worry much. And, then they were taken down to the, security guys at the railway station, or the railway siding. And there, they were met and taken away to a, probably a, Aboriginal,

camp or something I don’t know. But they’re the only ones that were there and, oh, it was a, pretty good time and, Navy army and air force all together and, plenty to do, outside of working hours.

Well, she was, she was just put in there and, I don’t know I didn’t go into

the decontamination chamber, but I suppose she was put in there and shown the soap and, the shower and, all the rest of it.

Oh, just filthy. Like, you know, you know how fat smells when it’s gone rancid? That, like that. So she’d probably been eating goannas or something.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah everyone was surprised.

But you see, you wouldn’t know. They could have been anywhere, out in the bush. They go walkabout as you know. Yeah.

Very, very, nomadic.

Oh yeah there were areas that were checked out and, areas we were told,

there were, Aboriginals camped at, and, of course, they were in the safety area it was quite all right for them to be there. But, there may well have been someone there to tell them not to look at it, I don’t know. Some have stated that, they’ve gone blind because they looked at it. Well that might well mean that no one was there to tell them not to look at it.

But it, a mile away you could still, I’m sorry, 20, miles away, you could still feel the heat on the back of your neck. Mile and a half it was real hot, yeah.

Oh that was …

The heat was, terrific. There was, like a burning sensation, a real bad, hot, sunburn you know. When you’re really, sunburn

and then you go out in the sun again and you feel it on the sunburn, it was like that, yeah.

Oh no, well the security at Maralinga was, pretty spot on, oh yeah. And, never even thought of Hiroshima as a matter of fact. While we were there.

Oh we were concerned if we got too close yeah. But we had a little, gauge on our, clothing you know. Every now and then that was checked to see, what rating we were. If you got a figure of three you were sent out. The highest I had I think was 1.5. Which was nothing to worry about.

No I had a phone call one day from a Commonwealth doctor, who said, “You were at Maralinga I’m Doctor So and So I’ve got to check a few things out with you.” And, “How do you feel and blah blah blah. How’s your eyesight” and, he said, “Oh well, you sound all right. Nothing wrong with you.” And that was it that my medical examination for post

Maralinga. Yeah. I also had to give evidence at Roy- at the Royal Commission on Maralinga. So I could only tell them what happened the truth and, nothing’s ever going to come of it. They’re still, fiddling with it, whether, people are going to be given, a pension or, what have you but, I’m TPI I don’t care I can’t go any higher and, I don’t care about Maralinga it doesn’t worry me.

I think if, if I’d have had any cancer it would have come out by now.

Can’t think of any no.

Of?

What I just said before about the Wurlitzer organ, type thing? About the keys going into it?

It was, well do you know what a Wurlitzer organ looks like?

Well, a Wurlitzer organ’s like a big theatre organ. And it’s, about from there to there. And it’s semi-circular. And a bloke sits at it peddling away and he’s, and, all over the place on, on the organ. Well it’s like that. But it’s got 20 keyholes. And 19 of them are, for the boffins, the, scientists, right? Who were out at Ground Zero before the detonation.

They have to come in and put their key in. And as soon as the 19 are in, or 20 it might have been, the one, that’s left, is the Colonel, the chief scientist, Sir William Penny his name was. Later, Lord Penny. And, then it goes off, ‘boom’ yeah.

Yeah.

Just army

records. Like, if they, had to move down, anywhere I’d have to write a, organise a movement order and, put them all, in filing cabinets and look after them and, maintain them, in general, that’s all. Oh, it’s also, you’d say, Chief Clerk, of the atomic range, for any service matters. Not for the civilians, no, but for the servicemen. And I was answerable

to the Range Commander who was a full colonel, Colonel Durants. He’s since died too, yeah.

No, but, I’ve been asked, not so far back either, if I remembered a hospital being there and I said sure, I remember when it was built. And they said “Well there’s, there’s nothing in any records to say there was a hospital there. I said, “phooey, there was.

My own, medical records, don’t include Maralinga. It’s been taken out of my medical records, yeah. Yeah.

Well they were trying, I think, to prove that there was, no hospital there but that’s

ridiculous. I even remember the name of the doctor. He he was an Egyptian or, something. Doctor Tony Samaha, yeah. From Perth.

Eh?

Oh it’s the old clandestine, way of running, the bureaucratic, business, with government. But I

don’t know, it’s it’s silly to me because, everyone knew there was a hospital there. I was never a patient there but I even knew one of the, army nursing guys there. Old Tommy Tunstall, he got a Military Medal in Korea. I remember him and, the doctor and, oh yeah it was there.

What Maralinga?

We came under the British, or the United Kingdom Ministry of Supply. And they had, they operated mainly from somewhere in Adelaide, I can’t think of the name of the, actual area. But, we got an allowance of 18 shillings a day. Now that’s a $1.80 and in those days it was a lot of money.

And, occasionally the Range Commander would come into me and he’d say, “George get on the phone, and order, anything up to 200 crayfish, to be flown up, and there’s going to be a big barbecue Saturday night so order 10 pigs.” And, I’d ring through, “Yeah, okay,” and up they’d come on the aircraft. But we didn’t pay for them the United Kingdom Ministry of Supply paid for them. And one night there, at the

dinner, party we had, was, everyone in together including Canadians. And there was one big Canadian guy, and he ate 17 half crayfish, or lobsters as you call them up here I think. 17 of them, my God. Yeah. But we didn’t starve there was plenty there, plenty of everything.

He was part of the Radiation Detection Unit. What they used to do was go out in funny suits and measure the radiation, in certain areas. Yep.

Not me, no I wasn’t in into the technical side of it at all. I was on the administrative side yeah.

Oh nothing much. But, you know that was a whopper and, blah blah blah. But they were bigger than the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, oh yeah. There was a lot of cancellations because of the weather. Just couldn’t, they couldn’t let them go and we’d be, on tenterhooks for weeks sometimes.

before, we’d get the official it’s going to happen. And it would happen and boom. Because they had to wait, ‘till the wind was at a certain, height level or what, before they’d let it go. Otherwise it could be the cloud could go over, a suburban area. Wipe out a population, yeah. Probably people use that excuse too, if you ask me.

Oh, could say, yeah, we copped it like people in Adelaide or, Brisbane at the time they could have said, oh we copped some of that radiation. No way, no.

I think it was a waste of time and a waste of money because I don’t know what came out of it. It satisfied the British.

They got what they wanted out of it. And, they also used us and our country, used us as guinea pigs. And, used our country. Well, the desert, I suppose they thought it was, no man’s land that, that’ll do, yeah.

The what?

Oh well of course, there was quite a bit of comment about that and, many of the guys thought it was wrong. But that, they should have, they all said that the government must have got something out of it. And they probably did too at the time. But, they definitely used some of us as guinea pigs. And, even Bob Menzies, at the time,

said, oh yeah use what you like, do what you like. Yeah.

No. No, we were, sworn to secrecy. And, we were not to say boo under the Secrets Act, about anything. Yeah.

Oh well that, you’re up for treason, I guess.

Bang. Get shot. Hanged. Put in jail. I don’t know that it’d ever come to that but, in the, earlier days that may well have been the case yeah.

Yeah my wife and I went. I had to pay everything for her. But, mine, was paid for by the,

Federation of Korean Industries. And, we flew there direct from Brisbane. Stayed at the Lottie Hotel, pardon me. And, it was beautiful there I mean, marble, sinks in the, bathroom and, oh yeah it was really spot on. And, we had a pretty

hectic time, with the itinerary. We were up early, one day we were up at five and went to bed at midnight. That was on the 27th, which was the, what do you call it? The anniversary of the, armistice, yeah. We went all over the place we went to, the Korean cemetery, war cemetery. And in

one space, one area there, there were 60,000 Koreans buried, with no names. They didn’t know who they were they were just bodies. We went there twice, we went to the, war memorial at Panmunjom and also out the back where the, Peace Treaty was signed. We couldn’t go too far there and, we weren’t allowed in, to have a look. We had lunch there and,

we, went to, an observation post at, the, near the Yellow Sea, at the entrance of a tributary of the Han River. And across, from this tributary, were the North Koreans and you could look across at them and, they were bellowing away there, with their propaganda and the Koreans, South Koreans would bellow back

at them. We had to climb through a trench, which was heavily camouflaged. And my wife, too and I said “Well you’re an old soldier now, you’ve been through there you’re the fourth Lang to have to do it.” And it was quite interesting to, see it. And, the security there they’ve got big spotlights and, a big wire fence that they, patrol in case any of them try to get across. Because some, could be trying to escape from

North Korea to get into South Korea. And if they did well they’d start shooting at them. The North would be shooting their own people. A guy came over to me, or I was told I, someone wanted to see me at the back of the bus. And, I went out, and he introduced himself and I said “Yeah I know you,” he said, “Yeah I’m from Helensvale, just round the corner here”. And, his name’s Ron Connolly he’s got a programme on,

4CRB every Friday morning. And he interviewed me and, the tape went on, the radio the following Friday. And that, that was good you know to meet someone, in such a place, so far away and he’s only around the corner here. We had two dinners one was sponsored by the, Federation of Korean Industries. And the other was,

sponsored by the, Korean Government, and the American Military Forces there. And, oh they hit you with presents left right and centre, little, badges and God knows what. But, they were lovely, presents and they were lovely evenings. And, I couldn’t say a word against them they really cared for us, yeah.

To Korea? Well, it it didn’t seem to, make me stop and think. I was too busy worrying about Lorraine and how what she thought of it and she, she, very non-committal she’d just say, oh yeah this is good and. I wasn’t concerned about, being murdered, shot at or, knifed or bayoneted or anything like that it didn’t worry me I didn’t even think of it.

I just thought, here we are in another country. See the year before we went to Canada, to see our daughter. And, that was, that was good. I’ve been to Indonesia, although I had a gun held at me in Indonesia, few years back. Because I went to cross a road and there was a great trainload of, dignitaries coming down in trucks and, they stopped everything for them.

But, no it didn’t worry me about Korea I was, pretty happy, about, the security and, what went, went on. At Kapyong, I wanted to see the Kapyong River and, grab a few little pebbles from that and bring home but, we weren’t allowed to go near it. Maybe it was open ground and, I’d have been seen I don’t know. But, everything was good and, I was quite happy with it.

Yeah.

No I don’t I can’t, I can’t march too far with, the asthma. Last, this year, I went to Brisbane and I was in one of those, those new, gun carriers, what do they call them? A, jumbo or, or russo or, or some such thing I don’t know it’s a funny looking thing. And, they’ve got a gun turret on the roof of the …

I was in one of them during the march.

Mm?

Felt good yeah particularly to see the people all, cheering and, putting up signs thank you. And I thought we’re not forgotten, yeah.

Oh yeah.

In North Korea?

Well in the summer time, the temperature, well firstly the temperature in the winter was minus 40 and in the summer it was 40 plus. And, the roads were all dusty. And, mixed with the dust, would be some of the, blow off, of the human excrement, mixed with the dust and float through the air and,

it’d come into your lungs. And that was, that was pretty bad, yeah. But they used that for manure because, on their paddy fields because, the Japanese, stopped, the subsidy of fertiliser. Well they had to because they got kicked out. So that was their way of fertilising their paddy fields.

Oh yeah I copped it a bit but, worse when I got home. I’ve had it, practically ever since.

Mm.

Anxiety state. Which, the, Vietnam Veterans call,

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder but I don’t believe in that. I mean, anxiety state to me just means that I’m, on tenterhooks at times. And, I’m a worrier. I’ve been told to stop worrying. Even yesterday, our new President said “You’ve got to stop worrying.” I can’t help it. I want to see that everything’s right, everything’s done properly. Deafness. Got something wrong with my right eye.

And, what else? Oh from the dysentery yeah. They said I had colitis. Don’t know there’s about nine, disabilities I’ve got I think. Oh dermatitis yeah I was bad with that, oh. I was covered head to foot. And

I had a lot of time in hospital with that. But got rid of it. Mainly through thinking positively.

Eh?

I deal with them? Oh, I just take each day as it comes and, don’t even think of them no.

I, wouldn’t want to do it all again but if I had to I’d accept it. And, I would say that, our, repatriation system is the best in the world. And we are definitely cared for, by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

They are very kind, very good to us. And they look after us, yeah. There’ll be moaners and groaners who say they should have this and they should have that. But, why make yourself get sicker just to get something bigger. I don’t believe in that, no.

Naomi [interviewer]?

Do you want to hear about that other thing

don’t you?

Yeah. Came home from Korea on the Tuesday and on the Saturday I went out to meet my mates, out at Hawthorn at the, in the hotel and, we got stuck into it and I bought a couple of bottles of champagne and, I had them in, in my coat pockets and went down to a, hamburger shop and had, had a meal and, went outside and I was sick and a couple of police

came and carted me off. And, took the, champagne away from me and my money and put me in the slammer ‘till about 11 o’clock. And then I got out and I had to front up on the, Monday morning, before a Justice of the Peace. And I wore my uniform. “Oh, if we’d have known you were in the army we would have got the Military Police. You’re very lucky.” “How was he, behaving?” “Very well, Your Worship, very well, very well.” “Okay, don’t do it again. How was Korea? “

He said, you know, and that was all right. Wasn’t a big deal but they put me in to sober up I think. Oh gee, I sobered up all right I was sick as a dog for about three days. But that was my homecoming you see, that’s all. Just to get with my old mates and, have a few stews. Yeah.