Australians at War Film Archive

Well my Father was born in England, a place called New Brompton, he came out here when he was about 5 year old. He was up at Bendigo,

he married up there, they had 5 children, his wife died, came down to Melbourne and he married my mother. And another I’ve got a brother and a sister. I had two brothers one who only lived 3 days and one about 3 hours. My mother passed away about 10 days after my 10th Birthday and my father passed away

exactly 9 months after that. So I went to live with a stepbrother, one of his first sons who had a daughter and that daughter was known mainly throughout the TV [television] world as Corrine Kirby, on Channel Two. I lived there until I was 16 and then I went to live with another stepsister who had a son that’s

he was 3, 4 years older than me. At age 16 I joined the 29th Battalion Militia which he was in.

My father was 59 when he passed away, my mother was only 37.

Yeah I suppose, if he was alive today he’d be about the 135, 140 I suppose so.

His mother and his brother and sisters they all nearly lived in Sydney. My Grandmother she was about 90, 91 when she passed away that was around about 1930 odd ’31.

That I don’t know I think they were mainly in Bendigo, they did come down here because my brother, my stepbrother that I was living with lived in East Coburg and my father and mother before they passed away lived, we lived in East Coburg.

Well the youngest of the stepbrothers turned 21 when I suppose I would have been about, that’s only guessing from memory, now around about 6 or 7.

And two of those stepbrothers served in the First [World] War.

No not a lot about them. I know the one that I was living with had gas TB [tuberculosis] and he was, he worked in the Tramway, as did my father, he was on full pension. One of my other stepbrothers was a TPI [Totally and Permanently Incapacitated] man, there was also the husband of the stepsister I was living with he was a TPI

I don’t know a lot about them. Her maiden name was Murray. Her father was I always believe that he came from Northern Island, as did his first wife, that’s where the Hannon came from.

And they were fairly involved with the Methodist Church in Coburg, that’s about as much as I know of them, because I was only 10 years old.

No when I was living with my stepbrother he

was living in Harding Street, Coburg.

No they were mainly, they were down in Melbourne at that time.

Oh, not a lot. I went to the mall and infant’s schools it was then. The East Coburg State School

started, I started there on the day it opened. From memory I think that was about 1927. My father drove the first tram out of the new East Coburg Tramway shed that was in those days, that’s all closed up now, it’s something else.

Oh it was when my parents died, I as I say I went to live with the brother. My brother that’s two years younger than me, he went to live with stepsister and my sister, who was 6 years younger than me,

one of my Father’s brothers from Sydney took her over to Sydney. So we were all split up. My brother was with the stepsister for a couple of years, she couldn’t keep him any longer so he went to one of my mother’s brothers in Coburg and I use to see him a lot. Then his wife died and he married again and the second wife, him and the other two children from that brother’s marriage out, she didn’t want them there so my brother went to Sydney

and that left me living with Corrine and her father, when I turned 16 I went to the stepsisters that had my brother in the first place because then I was working and that helped to provide a bit of money for the upkeep and so that’s where I lived with them until I went away with the forces. And with them when I came back, til I was married.

Yes.

I got on very well with them. Bit hard with the brother first, cause with the girl, there’s only Bee and that’s why I went to live with the stepsister then who had the son even tho he is 3 year older than me we got on famously. Unfortunately he passed away about 12 months ago.

Well he was with, I think it was up at Stanthorpe up in South Queensland where they (UNCLEAR), No he was, he was not too bad, but still on a full pension that’s…

but working in the Tramways.

A conductor he was.

He was a driver, he drove the first….

Oh yes we went everywhere on trams. It was all right struck when my brother was on, we didn’t have to pay.

Yep, that was East Coburg line; it ran down Nicholson Street, East Coburg and everything and terminated at Bell Street.

It run along Nicholson street and down through East Brunswick and went round to St Kilda.

Spare time, when I was with my sister, we were into motorbikes.

When they moved from Beverford out to Gallipoli Parade in Pascoe Vale South then we joined the Essendon Motorcycle Club and we use to do scramble riding everything through the mud and slush. That was our main thing. And we used to go away on Holidays down camping down Balnarring and everything down on the motorbikes, that was our main thing except for joining the 29th Battalion you know with their camps.

Yes, but I was riding from 16 for two years without, not round the roads mainly but on the scramble tracks which you didn’t need it of course.

Nothing much just getting out with a bat and ball in the street, with the lamppost playing cricket and everything. Kids still do it the same these days. Football but for, half the time for football you use to a bit of newspaper rolled up about 6 inches long tied up with string and kicking that round as a footy. You know just

games like that or cards, players cards and throw them up against the wall or marble and all those sort of things. Not like now with all these sophisticated toys now.

I went to Melbourne Technical College Junior School.

which is down in West Melbourne, it now the William Anglis Food School now. I was there til I turned 15, had to leave at the end of second term. Cause when my father died the tramways provided enough money for our education until we turned 15. Money a year, it’s only something about 15 pound a year for each of us until we turned 15. Then I had to leave and go to work, cause

back in those days a bit hard. But had to contribute towards my keep and everything so. So I left in second term of intermediate so I didn’t even finish that.

Well back in those days, really in it’s infancy and the principal, the chaps would come up and interview the principal and I went as a panel beater. There were no apprentices back in

that time, it was what you call an improver. And I went right through until the time that I joined up and went away.

The first place was a place called Wotton Car Renovating Works, they sold out and I went down to a place called Melbourne Motor Engineering Works in Queensbridge Street, South Melbourne, and I was there until I joined up and went away.

A bit hard but just we were lucky we got on all right. It’s I suppose

we were very lucky that we didn’t go to an institution or something, We all went to family members, even tho we were split up you know. We didn’t see much of once my brother went to Sydney we didn’t see a great deal of each other. But it’s one of those things, there’s nothing much you can do about it, you just got to get on with it.

And in those days it was one of the top pay trades.

Yes, oh yes.

One what

that I remember well when I first started work it was about a 1936 Bedford Panel van, which were, I think we were panelling for I think it was Anglises in those days. We also made a few of the, all the, panel all the cabins on the Melbourne City Council water cleaning, they use to go round cleaning all the gutters and everything, we did the panelling on those, that’s the earliest ones I can remember.

No that was making panels, wheeling them up on the wheeling machine and weld them all together and smooth them down and fitting them to the wooden frame.

Well only the fellows that were there teaching me and everything.

Well, it’s enough to have a job back in those days. As I say trade certificates didn’t come in til some time afterwards so it was recognised afterwards but you go through as an improver. It would have been nice to have had the apprenticeship certificate but it didn’t do me any harm later on for how I got on.

Of course later on after I came back from the services I went back to the panel beating for a while and eventually became a manager of a big repair place and then went in a an engineer assessor with the insurance company. I was with them for, doing that for over 20 years until I retired. And that’s all that hard work

and bringing up to learn the trade properly and everything.

Was only welding (UNCLEAR) and the wheeling machine as they called it, that they wheeled the panels up in. But and perhaps a guillotine and a set of rollers but that’s about all there was back in those days.

Yeah we do that sometimes, wash the (UNCLEAR)

No the vehicles were towed in to you by the tow truck people.

That right yeah. Some of them put some good stories over you and everything, but you can usually get round it and know. And some would say and that happened in the accident to no way you can see.

Oh yeah people would come in and say can you get this included in it and everything and you’d try and include it, but the assessor if he knew his game, they were pretty cluey and … Especially somebody like me, most of them come up through the trade and everything. But the company I was with in the first place they all had to have been come through the trade and be very experienced people.

I know I use to ride a motorbike there and you could fire a cannon down the road.

Much the same sort of thing.

Still use to turn themselves over sometimes. Especially when the Volkswagens came in they use to roll them over quite easy you know,

until they got to know them.

That would be in the middle 30s and everything would be

when Chamberlain [English Prime Minister] went over to Germany and came back, I can always remember him coming back and see the pictures of him waving his umbrella around, peace in our time and everything. Which only gave them a bit more time to prepare themselves.

Oh sometimes but not a great deal. I think you’d be mainly

talking about the football and anything like that.

Yes.

The motorbike?

It was an Excelsior 2 stroke. Only a little 250 cc [cubic capacity] but nothing like the bikes of today. But I owned a pushbike though and I use to ride that from Pascoe Vale to South Melbourne and back

everyday, down to work and then home.

All uphill coming home.

With my, well it’s funny with my nephew, even tho he’s a few years older than me.

We’d camped down there perhaps for a long weekend or something like that. And we’d walk around the beach, go for a swim, come home.

Yes, I can always remember when my mother died, I think back because I use to go out with her a lot

to all our Sunday school anniversaries and everything round with her, cause she was that way inclined. And I remember I cried for days after she died. But when my father died, at that time I was up staying with my other brother and his daughter, it came as a shock but I think I got over that.

He was, I remember I went in to see him a few times; he was in Royal Melbourne Hospital, which in those days was on the corner of Lonsdale and Swanston Street. And he had pneumonia and pleurisy but he really hung up the will to live after mother died, because they were told not to have any more children because of her condition and they did and she died and after

having lost his first wife and then her I think he just …

Yes. Something, which would never happen these days. Kidney problems and high blood pressure and she died. Pretty serious back in, well it is now, back in the 1930’s those things were fatal.

Well the first one had lived for a few days, I can always remember because the coffin was brought home and was in our front lounge room and

it was open and we were taken in to say goodbye before. And the other one that only lived a few hours when my Mother died, well that was buried in the coffin with her. That’s the only reason probably that I remember both those. I always remember the little white coffin in the front lounge room.

Yes, yes, and some other weekends cause 1936 when I joined the 29th Battalion.

Where we use to have to do, go every fortnight I think it was, we use to have to go to the drill hall over in East Melbourne and every so often had to go away for weekend camps.

Well my nephew that I was living with he was a member of the 29th Battalion, so I joined as a senior cadet, to be with him cause we always went out together and everything.

So he was more like, became more like a brother to me and that’s how we were. So my big brother used to take me.

That’s right yeah. Use to get a few laughs I’ll tell you.

Oh I use to go what they call ‘weekend bivouacs’ and training, much I suppose what they the same as they do now go along with learn your rifle drills and everything. I became what they call a first class Lewis Gunner [machine gun operator].

Well it was done out at the Williamstown Rifle Range, it use to be there. And with the Lewis Gun you’d have to be able to pull it down and put it together in a certain time. And on the range, fire at the targets and obtain a certain score with the targets. Well I was

learning it all as a senior cadet and as soon as you went in at 18 into the full thing, then you did your firing and everything and if you got that badge that gives you a bit of extra money. And I was with that 29th Battalion until war broke out and when war broke out they were a security battalion and only a few days after war broke out I was a security guard on the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation.

And did that for a months, I went back to work for a couple of months and then up into a camp at Trawool up at Seymour doing intense training under firing and everything for over a month, back to work for a few months and then to a three month camp on the Nagambie road. And in that three month camp there was three battalions of us there and they did

a trial mobilization call up I think for all 21 year olds. And from that camp, that’s where I joined the air force. I had to get a written permission from the CO [Commanding Officer] from there to join the air force.

Yes, yes, yes he was with the 29th Battalion right through under the Militia, they went up to the islands after when the Japanese came into the war.

Yes, yes I use to enjoy it. It was a bit hard with all the route marches you had to do and everything. No, no it was good, companionship and everything.

Oh still a bit of a kid I think, I was pretty quite and shy. Didn’t get that you know knocked about very much only just out my nephew and everything. Very quite family

orientated more of less.

No, I always sort of wanted to get into the air force and so.

Ah yes it would have been, I joined up around about September or something

1940.

Well I thought there was more chance of I wanted to serve and go away so that’s why I didn’t stay in the Militia because they weren’t going

away at the time. I suppose it’s a bit silly to want to go away but after what happened.

No, I always thought they’d been away and served and everything and I was I suppose I still am pretty

loyalist and everything. Very much so.

It was always thing because at school, it was always God, King and Country. It’s you know very

loyal Australian but you always wanted to serve the Empire and everything it was in those days. That’s I think that’s why.

No I had been taken in to see the

Anzac Parade at time and at school I can always remember with our second grade we had a school teacher named Miss McNamara and her brother came in to the school a couple of times and he’s a VC [Victoria Cross] winner from the Australian Flying Corp from the First War and that was always my hero, probably one of the reasons for joining the air force too. But no I always remember that and he made a bit of an impression on all the kids.

Well I went through the recruitment thing, down in Melbourne, passed all the medicals and everything and then went to Laverton as to do the rookie squad and everything. And from that passed all that and went down to No. 7

Armourers course down at Point Cook.

Well having been with guns, Lewis guns and everything, it gave me a step into an armourers position it was a trade that was available to me. Which I went down and fortunately did very, very well at it, pass out with a over 90 percent pass, which

is distinction was sent down to 1 ITS [Initial Training School] at Somers instructing air crew all had to do that were going through their a certain amount of how a gun works and everything, just teaching that and it was from there I was posted overseas.

No, instructing.

No, I was on leave one weekend that at my sisters place up at Pascoe Vale and got a phone call from the …from down at Somers saying that I’d been selected to go to 451 Squadron. I had to come straight back to Camp.

Oh no pretty excited

now that’s the only thing we had to sign an agreement then that we would, well we had to volunteer then that we would serve under the same conditions as RAF [Royal Air Force] being the ATF [Australian Task Force] Squadron.

Well with the Australian air force their pay and conditions were much

higher than what the RAF were so we had to volunteer to go over and serve there under the same pay and conditions as the RAF The other pay just accumulated in our own pay books back here but whilst we were over there we weren’t allowed to draw any more than what an RAF man draws. That and when we got over we had to retain our own uniforms and our own

identity being Royal Australian Air Force. It was when we got over there to the Middle East they took our Australian pay books off us and gave us English pay books and that created a bit of a hassle with the fellows you know. Air Marshal Williams came to visit us and he was he’s known as the Father of the RAAF when he found out about the pay books he created merry hell and had our own pay books

given back to us. He said they were the conditions; everything was to remain the same except we served under RAF conditions as regards to the amount of pay and everything, so we had to get our pay books and everything back.

I think there, I can’t remember exactly but there was quite a difference. We were well paid to what

they were. The only thing they got, as part of their pay they also use to be entitled to a weekly ration of beer and cigarettes. That’s when I unfortunately started smoking. Wild Woodbine the worst cigarettes they’d ever made which caused a lot of my problems for later on in life.

Laverton, yes and that’s when you did all what they call square bashing and everything, drill and everything, discipline it was all that type of thing. From that to an armaments school at Point Cook.

Well that’s, they teach you

the use of the guns and everything that they were using on the planes everything in those days and also various training about bombs. We use to go out to Derrimut Munitions Dump to move bombs around and cleaning them up and everything. Some of them use to exude a little bit at times, just teach you how to clean it and everything.

Mmm, a little bit around the top where the fuse goes in, a little bit leaked around there.

No not in my day.

Well they were mainly Browning .303 [rifle] , Brownings back in those days mainly.

Which changed later on when we were overseas of course.

Oh we could take them in and out yes, if one had to be changed, when you majored on them and everything. Mainly they were, when we were overseas in the planes over there they were cleaned and oiled and everything in the plane itself.

I suppose when the planes came back in, and they’d fired the gun. There’s a panel on top of the main plane, you take that panel out.

The wing.

And take that panel off which exposes all you’re the guns and everything to you. And then you clean them all out with a mixture of petrol and oil and everything. And with a rod and bag and everything up from the front, up and down the barrels to clean, thoroughly clean them and everything. Wash them with oil and everything. Rearm

all the belts of ammunition and everything back to them, put it all together again. Put your panel back on and they were the fronts of the main plane. You’d just put little patches of fabric over them so that the dust and everything wouldn’t get in them. And that was…

Oh sometimes they’d get what they call a stoppage in them. Something might jam and they’d misfire

but usually they were pretty reliable guns. And later on the aircraft had 20mm cannons in them then. The same sort of thing would occur with those.

Well the .303 it’s only, well as it says point .303 of an inch I suppose, it’s only a little thing, a 20 mm cannon

is getting up near an inch, 25 mil to the inch. A twenty millimetre is getting very close up to the.

Yes it’d be a high explosive incendiary, and armour piercing all mixed in sequence in the belts that go through them.

Yes, and that was the usual configuration of the things.

That’s something I don’t know. I don’t know the range and everything but the .303 had a pretty fair range on those I think it go about a mile, that’s what I think as far as I know. But that I can’t remember the exact range of them. Or the firing rate which is fairly high.

Oh mainly only that and how to fit, they had the bomb racks on the planes and how they were attached and things like that. But those things changed as time went on you know.

But I’m afraid I don’t recall a lot more about. But it was mainly with the Browning guns and also going over and seeing the different types of bombs they had at Derrimut and everything and learning about them.

Out there they were mainly 250 pound and 500 pound bombs they were.

Oh just high

explosive sort of (UNCLEAR)

I’ve got a photo of the course that I was on over there with all the fellows on it. Roughly about 20 on each course.

Yes, yeah I think there were only

3 of us that got over 90 percent but the rest of them they got enough to pass. But it’s funny the three of us all got a high score all finished up on 451 Squadron. And a couple of the others off other courses that got good scores were on 450 Squadron.

Oh yes, it was hard but good.

No, to be honest no, it was quite

good. It wasn’t so good serving with a couple of these Permanent English fellows that we had. Because Australians are fairly easy going and everything and they’re more rigid with saluting all the time and (UNCLEAR) all the time.

Oh well our first

CO was a, I think an Englishman. A few of the Senior NCOs [Non Commissioned Officer], we had a couple of Englishmen on the (UNCLEAR) course. We were pretty raw when we went away really and when we went, landed over there at a place called Port Tewfik which is one end of the Suez Canal, we went to a transit camp for a while and then we were taken to El Aghelia which is not far out of Alexandria.

No, I cant really. It was would be a couple of months I dare say about that.

Yes

went home for a weekend. A couple of times we use to get a weekend leave and go back home.

No, I didn’t see them until, when we went to Sydney to posted to the squadron.

Somers.

Down there yeah that’s only the aircrew had to learn the principal of how the guns operated.

You training aircrew.

Oh yes it was (UNCLEAR). It’s funny a couple of those fellows finished up on our squadron. And down there for only a couple of months. So down there when I got posted to the formation of the squadron.

Well as I said I was on holidays and received the call, had to go back to

Somers. Do all the necessary paperwork and everything there and then I was sent to Bankstown Airport, where the squadron was formed.

Roughly 300.

Well there were, naturally the lot that I’m with Armourers, and Fitter

2A’s that’s fitter 2 Airframe, Fitter 2E who were the engine people, there’s instrument makers, there was coppersmith, there’s just general hands, aircraft oh I don’t know what they’re called guards, cooks

of course you’ve got your WO [Warrant Officer] Disciplinary, your Adjutant, Medical Officer, Medical Orderlies that’s roughly general things for the air force.

Well aircrew, when the squadron was at I suppose at full strength and everything you could have about

20 Pilots, 24 Pilots and the ground crews there about 300.

Well that’s when we went overseas planes we were involved with the first ones we had were Hurricanes, Hurricane 1s and then it became Hurricane 2Cs I think they were, then we…

Well our first training was on Hurricanes when we went overseas.

Oh, no planes, that was just all lectures and talks and learning everything, no planes at all.

I went up there

about end of March, I would have only been there a few weeks before we went away. The squadron started forming I think it was in February 41 and we went away on the 8th of April ’41.

Yes, yes I had leave there a couple of times and saw them. Actually I’ve got a photo of myself with a few of the other fellows of the squadron with my brother and sister.

Yes, yes. I’d be twenty at the time, my brother was just 18, sister would only be 14 at the time.

Yes, he was in the army for a while but his employer

pulled him out. It was his occupation, he was a senior miller on the Bronton’s Flour Mill and everything, so they pulled him back out, they didn’t want him to go away. But he’s there in uniform, I’ve got a photo of him there in uniform, so he didn’t go away.

From Sydney? We went onboard the Queen

Mary and on the 8th of April, ’41 then we went down to Jervis Bay and waited there while the Queen Elizabeth went into Sydney Harbour and loaded up with all troops and everything. Which was the first time ever that the Queen Elizabeth had been used as a troop ship or anything. Because it was still in England when the war broke out and they rushed it over to America

and then brought it out to here, the first troop come out. And at that time it was the largest convoy that had left Australia, only five ships but there was a huge amount of men aboard. The convoy was the Queen Mary, the Queen Elizabeth, the Mauritania, the Ile de France, and the Nieuw Amsterdam. The Nieuw Amsterdam was the smallest ship in the convoy, 35,000 tonne. Unfortunately

that had the 8th Division on it, it broke away at the Indian Ocean and went to Singapore, we all know what happened to them. Then we went on and we disembarked at Port Tewfik, all out into barges and onto shore.

There was roughly about 30,000 I think over the five ships.

Yes we had the Australian warship escort across the Indian Ocean. Till we got to about Aden, when the Queen Mary just went off on it’s own. Cause nothing else could keep up with her, just open up being straight. Do about 32 knots I think it was,

none of our warships could keep up with her at that time.

Yes,

Yes, yes

Oh I thought it was very good, because we lucky I suppose at that time the Queen Mary was pretty luxury compared to the rest of the troop ships going

away. Because they’d just taken the beds and that out. We had, the one that I was in the room was only about four bunks in it. Later on when that was bringing Americans over from America over to Europe they’d stripped all swimming pools everything out, bunks and everything and they were sleeping in two shifts and bringing huge amounts of troops in one go on it, whereas there was only 7,000 on it when we went away so that was quite good.

Food was reasonable a bit different to what we’d been use to but a lot better than what we were to get later. I can remember the commander of the ship coming around, they’d have life boat drills and everything at times and be there and you’d have your life jacket on, he’d come around and grab it and roar at you and everything, that’s not on properly if you’d jumped over off here

it’s so many storeys up, you’d break your neck if you haven’t got it tied down properly. Little things I remember. But we had plenty of music onboard. The 2/2nd Pioneer Division was on, the battalion was onboard ours and the 2/25th which later on Bruce Ruxton [Former RSL (Returned and Services League) President] joined, later on when they came back from over there. And both of them had bands and we use to have plenty of music on board

when the brand practiced.

Oh all the old songs.

Songs like the First War, Tipperary, (UNCLEAR) Sergeant Major and all that type of song. But then they played other good music and everything as well.

Yes I was very close friends with a couple of other Armourers fellows that I use to go out with those days I use to not drink and they did and they use to take me out everywhere with them to bring them home. Then later on I started to drink.

Port Tewfik

We went to a place called Ishmailiya, which is a transit camp; we were there was a while and then moved to Aboukir which was a huge RAF base that they use to assemble planes and like that. And that was our first experience; we were there helping to assemble Hurricanes which would come out from England and all

parts all knocked down in crates and everything. We were helping them there and that’s where we got our experience of working on Hurricanes.

Aboukir is not far out of Alexandria on Aboukir Bay.

In Egypt, yes.

Yes we did a couple of times and it’s whilst we were at Aboukir the evacuation of Crete was going on to. And at Aboukir Bay the Sunderland flying boats were landing there with troops they were evacuating out.

No we were all about the same age yeah all about the same age.

I wouldn’t say that but…

To which?

Yes we went in there a couple of times, and go into there to what was called the Fleet Club cause being, Alexandria being a seaport it’s where the Royal Navy had a big base there and they had a fleet club where they use to play bingo or housie housie whatever you like to call it. Which is a legal game in the English Forces. Only two games they were allowed to play

and had money on was bridge and ‘housie housie’ or Bingo as they called it.

That’s about all, a bit of sightseeing and Fleet Club playing Bingo

or played cards. We use to play a lot of bridge in those days with any free time you got but we were kept fairly busy, but we did get a bit of leave and everything until we got moved out onto the squadron, formed the squadron. Got our planes and everything.

Yes we moved out of Aboukir to take over another an English Squadron, it was 6th Squadron, we took over all their planes, all their equipment and everything. Which was some of it been getting a bit weary some of it and everything but that was the first lot of equipment and everything we had and straight into the desert.

That was

the first relief of Tobruk.

That was. That was in 1941 that would be the relief of Tobruk campaign.

No, an Army Co-operation Squadron in those days with cameras in the underneath of the plane,

which made them pretty slow and cumbersome for some of them, we lost a lot of pilots. When we moved from Aboukir and took over from 6th Squadron and went straight up to a landing ground, our first, when we got there we were just getting our gear off the trucks when we got our first initiation to action, we got strafed and we lost a couple of planes on the ground and our first casualties, we lost 2 fellows that were wounded and one lost an eye he was

home straight away and the other one was wounded too. And that was our first initiation so.

No, not a lot. First think we did, we got under a truck and then we realised it was the armoured truck with all the ammo with explosives on board so we out from that just hugging the ground, we were lucky they were just after the planes and the things.

From there we were all over the place from one landing ground to another landing ground. We moved very quick being Army Cooperation Squadron it was always very close to the behind to the army because they were doing recko [reconnaissance] for them everything all the time. In fact on one of the aerodromes we were on there was all this clattering

and clanking of a night time we thought it was our own but it wasn’t we woke up in the morning it had been German tanks and everything coming and well we were able to get the planes off and everything got away but we had some of our fellows taken prisoners. They were prisoners for about 5 weeks until Bardia fell. And then when Bardia fell we got them back except an officer who was taken off by submarine.

Particularly, it’s still on the thing, they were particularly, particularly one end of it and we’re down the other end.

Oh yeah.

Yes, yes we

all had rifles, not that they’re much good against tanks. But it says on the book that I got there, they’ve taken out the log books, the squadron log books and everything and said well the Germans must have been a bit exhausted and asleep as they were up one end and we could make them out. Well say it’s not that close, it probably you know a couple of miles so and see them and we

were able to get the planes off and everything. I can remember we were all there on our trucks waiting to go and as soon as the planes went, we went too. But there was one place called Sidi Azeiz, which was a fort and some of our fellows were still there and they were taken prisoner and that was by Rommel himself was in that. I have some photos of

that.

Yes.

Yes ground crew. The Officer that was taken, was a captain he was the army fellow he was a liaison man with as I said we were Army Cooperation and he was the liaison officers so he had his code books and everything were captured and they were taken off by submarine,

got out. But our own fellows after 5 weeks we got them back because we were just outside Bardia doing the spotting for the AIF gunners that were close, the 25 pounders which they had were just on the side of our drone shelling Bardia while our fellows were doing the spotting and telling them how they were going. Then when Bardia fell we got our blokes back.

No, no. We also had planes in an underground hanger in Tobruk right through the siege of Tobruk.

On recos, they do a couple of times as it tells you in one of the pilots came back and reported that they’d seen to the wing commander

liaison officer there that they’d seen these tanks and everything so and they were taken down and reported them to the brigadier as he was and that’s in our book there and he said Oh they’re only dummies. So when our pilot came back to the wing commander he said, “They’re not dummies he said see the track and one of them swung his turret around and fired at me and he said dummies don’t do that.” So he said, “I’ll get back and tell him.” But it was a couple of days later some units of the Black

Watch, English Regiment went out and got hell belted out of them and our pilots said what the hells the good of us going out and telling them if they don’t take any notice.

I don’t know. I think they trusted it a bit more after that. But they thought they were only dummies there but they weren’t. But lucky Tobruk was relieved you know not long after that so.

No our squadron was in Tobruk from about the 17th December to about the 11th of December till about the 21st. And then we were pulled out of there back down to outside Bardia which was still in thing and that’s where our fellows were prisoners, doing the spotting outside there.

Well we were always ready for rapid moves and everything because we had a lot and pretty hard living, not much waters, you’d get a water bottle of water probably have to last you a couple of days. No water to wash your clothes or anything in.

You’d go for while and your clothes would be washed in petrol which caused a few rashes and things. Otherwise there was not enough water to do anything else. Plenty of petrol.

Yes

That’s right, yeah. That caused a lot of skin problems and everything, desert sores as they’re called. Fairly harsh living really it’s but we got by.

No, oh sometimes if you were on the landing ground for a bit longer we had the proper tents other times you’d have little bivouac tents.

No, no. No trouble with. Only supplies, only trouble at times you wouldn’t get the proper rations and you’d be living on just Bully Beef and hard biscuits for quite a while. But as I say lack of water, no lack of petrol, no lack of munitions.

Well you had to be very particular there with the dust and dirt. Because dust storms and everything, sand storms pretty prevalent. Sometimes sandstorms they’d be that bad you’d be locked up in the tent with all the things and you wouldn’t be able to see more than a few feet. It might go like that for a day or a couple of days. And then be as good as gold and another time you’d get a rainstorm, which seems funny, get floods in the desert, you’d be floating out of your tent trying to stop it. A few days later you’d have a sand

storm and wouldn’t be able to see for a day. So you can guess we had to be very particular with the cleaning of the guns. Same as everybody on the aircraft, everything had to be very particular with cleaning and keeping the dust and everything out, it was a big problem.

Oh yes you’d be you’d get a bit the way you’d wash them and clean them.

Just be very, very careful and thoroughly clean them with your petrol and oil and everything and make sure they’re all covered properly. And that you’ve got your bits of fabric over the front of the main plane so as no dust could get in. Or anything like that.

Just being careful.

No, no we had very good, use to have some of the best records of the lot of the lot our fellows. Even tho the first

CO had said we were green and we weren’t this and we weren’t that. But English squadrons if they had to do an engine change or a main plane change it would be done, back to a RSU [Repair and Salvage Unit] Re-service, Repair and Re-salvage Unit. Our fellows would whip up a pair of shear legs or have a crane come and change their own motor. And we’d all get underneath and heave the main plane off and get another one on, bolt it on. And that was all

done on site with some of our, when we had time we’d do it. But even tho he said we were raw and green and everything and I suppose not like permanent RAF blokes at least we could do things in the field that they couldn’t do in the field. Cause the Australian usually they’re pretty inventive and resourceful

really. But that’s one thing we use to pride ourselves on.

Oh yes and the Luftwaffe, German Air Force at the time had complete air superiority in the Desert at that time.

And well all of us used a lot of planes and everything. One German pilot by the name of Marseilles is credited with about 150 killings, so that’s the type of plane they had. Later on when we got Spitfires and everything we changed to a fighter squadron well things were a bit different.

No it’s one thing, you’re there and you’ll know you’ll have casualties and its be a bit down you know you came back and you’d lose somebody but straight on with it again and everything.

Now and again we’d get a reinforcement. The ground crew were pretty stable for a long time but there’d be a few of them went to a couple of other squadrons and some from those other squadrons came to us just interchanged. Because as we got experience and everything, some of the experienced fellows go to the other ones and some would

come to us.

Well first off, our first Hurricanes which were Hurricane Mark One, they were fitted with eight Browning 303, 4 in each main plane. Later on we got Hurricane 2Cs they had two

20mm cannon and the Browning guns in them. Later on when we went over to Spitfires we had planes that still had the 20mm cannons in them and the later ones had 2, point 5 Brownings in the main plane.

Yes, yes they’re fairly long, just from memory I’d say Oh be roughly about 5 inches long, 6 inches long with the shell and the projectile.

In the main planes.

We did have a couple of Hurricanes that had they mounted on the top of the main planes. It’s funny we

had, I’ve got one friend who was in the RAF and he said no they didn’t he said I tested them when they put them on and I said yes they did, I’ve got a photo of them. So it’s only a couple of weeks ago, so I gave him the photo and he’s had it blown up and sent one of them back to England to people at Hawker to show that they did. But then later on they were all inside the main planes.

The wing.

Inside the wings,

Well the ammunition was in drums in, it’s inside the main plane as well, the belt feed into the cannon.

No, no, they’re only loaded when they come back, when they’ve been out and if they’ve used any

ammunition when they come back it’s the armourers job to clean the guns and everything and replenish them all with new ammunition and everything. The only one that has any control of them in the plane’s flying is the pilot to fire them.

Oh they’d only have a couple of minutes probably of ammunition, which they’d probably fire in short burst and everything. Especially if they

were in a fight with another plane or anything, but when they’re strafing they’d soon run out of ammunition.

They can’t go forever it’s only as to much, how much ammunition they can carry as to it would be any more than a few minutes of you know continually

going all the time.

No.

Well when then come back in and if they’d fired their guns and everything on it naturally take the

cover off the main planes, clean it all, all in the breech, all the mechanisms, clean it wash it down, make sure the barrels thoroughly clean out and everything and then you’d reload it all with new ammunition. So they were quite a bit heavier (UNCLEAR) with getting ammunition up to the main plane and getting in but that’s all there was to it. It doesn’t sound

much but it’s quite a bit of work.

You’d probably be working on it for about an hour to do it all properly. Because if you came back and were in a rush and had to go out straight away you could probably rush it through quicker but fairly oh it’s just one of those jobs you just got on and did it.

Well the biggest problem really was the dust and the sand and everything. That would be the biggest problem.

Usually. Sometimes you might if it was in a hurry you might get one on each side doing it but it all depends on how many,

well there would only be when we were under Cooperation, there’d only be a couple of planes go out at once.

They usually did it with boxes of ammunition it would come in the thing and usually you’d put an armour piecing, a high explosive and tracer probably in whichever order

they wanted them in and that was usual configuration with them.

Oh usually pretty standard it was, if you had to do it, load the belts that’s the way.

Well armour

piercing as it said, it’s good for going through any solid stuff and everything, high explosive well that’s naturally when it hits it like that and incendiary well it show’s they up the path and also more fire and everything. But my memory’s not extra good on (UNCLEAR)..

They can see them throughout the tracers.

Yeah see where they’re firing.

Yes,

Well landing strips were just landing on the desert with

a cleared place so that no rocks or stones or anything there. They would just clear it off and be a landing strip.

All they had, yes.

Just had a tent or a bench thing, work with all the stuff off the truck.

Well each

flight would have it’s own armoured truck with A flight or B flight and you’d have a truck on each and all your ammunition and all your other goods and pieces were all carried on those trucks.

No, no just merely three tonne trucks.

Oh no, no.

Yeah, yes.

Oh a couple of times when you’re strafed or everything. More dangerous still later on. When we went to Corsica and everything. But in the desert we got strafed a few times and naturally you’re off try and get a slip trench

if you had one.

Roughly about 3 years it was. We got there in 1941, I’m not sure whether it was 43 or early 44 when we left the Middle East. We went to quite a lot of different places

in the Middle East because after we were in the desert and everything we went up to Syria and from Syria back down into Palestine and detachments in Palestine and Syria and on Cyprus.

Well that the Syrian Campaign was over when we went up there, we were up there and just training and working and training with the 9th Australian Division and a New Zealand Division

well they did come down to have the battle of El Alamein it was all mainly training and we were doing air defence of Beirut, around Palestine and over in Cyprus and chasing any enemy high flying recko, reconnaissance planes and things like that. That was practically the total air cover for up in that way. The squadron was split up into

three flights, so as everything else could come down ready for El Alamein and all the defence down there.

Yeah one flight was at a place called El Bassa, which is down in Northern Palestine another flight was, we were on a, altogether on an aerodrome at Rayak first before they split us up and then the flight

went to El Bassa, one flight was over East of Beirut at a place called Estabel and another detachment went to Cyprus. And then later we had another one, we had a couple of planes at Beirut Aerodrome too. A couple of underground hangers they had there. I was in Beirut meself for one of them.

Beirut was a very nice city really Beirut. Back in those days it was quite a nice place.

Not a lot but when you’d get into the city a couple of times but it’s not a lot of sightseeing there. But when we first went up there when we were at Rayak which was a big permanent French

Aerodrome with big barracks and everything on it. When we were there we were snowed in for a while there and the Australian Comforts Fund supplied us with some skis and everything. And we were able to do a bit of skiing round there while there was nothing else to do.

Yeah.

Very, very unlikely. Syria was very, very snowbound and everything during the

winter and in the summer it’s very, very hot place you know.

No.

Struggled a bit but soon got the thing just down gentle slopes.

Ourselves, stand up or fall over.

Oh they were pretty basic skis (UNCLEAR)

they were supplied by…?

They were timber skis.

Yeah

And then later on were moved back down into the down to the Desert again down to the Nile Delta. We were on Idku Aerodrome which is just outside Alexandria there on salt flats they are so that’s what the landing

ground was there. And then from there back up to the desert again and that’s where we were re-equipped with Spitfires and we became a fighter squadron.

Big change for very good planes and everything but not a lot of change but we still had the same armament and everything was working on it. But whilst we were there on the spitfires the that’s where the

fitted a bomb rack with practice bombs underneath one of the spitfires of which I have got a photograph and they were doing practising bombing for if ever they had to do any of that. And also whilst I was there, I think it was from memory around about September ’43 or something I was sent to do a I can always remember number 53

Chemicals, Weapons and Warfare Course down to Heliopolis which there’s not a lot known about, they reckon there was no gas or anything around but there was plenty of poison gas there. And I did a course there on the use of Mustard gas in containers on planes if it ever had had to be used. And thank heavens that never was used. Whilst there

at Heliopolis, I was, we loaded quite a few trucks of everything up of gas that was shipped back here to Australia. I mean it’s been denied a lot of times there was no gas, but there was, mustard gas was sent back here and on my discharge certificate which you can have a look at, you see on there No. 53 Chemicals, Weapons and Warfare Course they were with the RAF

Well it was a RAF depot and everything. We had enormous caves and everything all underground into a big cavern in the hill. An enormous big caverns and caves where all this gas was stored.

It was all mustard gas that we were handling yes.

Nothing, it’s just the container that was to fit under the bomb rack on the plane and it was only just explaining about how to pour it and filling it up and everything and as to how it worked.

It was a big canister; big canister and you’d just pour it in so as that the canister was full.

It’s a liquid.

It’s a liquid.

Well had masks and full protective clothing and everything. So I mean it’s not much that I’ve ever spoken about it or anything much, so I mean whether it’s to be left on or to come out or not, whether it’s one of those things

I was the only one from our squadron that went down to the course. Cause it only needed one, there was nothing much to it, really and everything. It’s just a matter of how to handle it and how to do, fit it on.

Yes all different squadrons all down there doing the course.

September ’43,

I think that the date on discharge certificate.

It was just one of those things, just to be prepared I suppose in case the other side started using it. Bit like the boys scouts, be prepared.

No.

They use to …sometimes you’d go on leave and go into Cairo of a night when you do

you’d have to be all fully examined and everything to make sure there was no blisters or no (UNCLEAR) if there was you wouldn’t be allowed out. No there were no accidents, the protective clothing and everything was pretty good, and very, very careful.

No, not much except that it could cause burns and blisters and everything but no not a lot. Thank heaven it was never ever used.

No,

No. I think we were told you know don’t discuss it and everything. But there was no signing of any secrecy things or anything.

No, It was never ever on base or anywhere near the aerodromes, but it was just down there

to be taken out if ever required.

Yes.

Oh I don’t know where it came from. In the first place it probably came from England or somewhere else out by ship and everything.

It might have been a bit more.

Not a lot, we’d heard about the….mainly when we’re, mainly by letters and everything there and we’d heard a couple of the battleships had been sunk. The squadron had volunteered as a whole to come back to Malaya or anything right there but no apparently it was part of the

thing that we had to stay there for the time. Especially after we’d left the desert and went to Corsica. Some of the fellows got white feathers and everything in their letters and it which caused a bit of a stir on the thing and nearly caused a riot on the squadron, they wanted to come home and everything.

Friend and everything back from home.

They reckon that they were over there shirking it, should be back here.

No, not personally, I might have at the time but I just forget who they were and everything. But it’s in the book, Bankstown to Berlin it’s mentioned in there about it. Everything and the squadron again volunteered to come home, which we were not allowed

but it saved a bit of a ruckus so one of our other Sister squadrons that went away with us 450 they were in Italy and one of our very popular pilots had gone from our squadron over as their CO and they flew him from Italy over to Corsica to talk to our fellows to calm them down and everything. And which he did, it was just one of those things and we just got on with the business.

Oh just a bit of a talk you know,

fatherly talk, even tho he was only a young fellow himself. Young pilot and the squadron leader at that time, by the name of Ray Hudson. Later on back after the war he was a pilot that flew the first helicopter down in the Antarctic. So (UNCLEAR) later on we took, we went from there to, we had a lot of fellows killed there too.

In Corsica we lost 8 fellows killed in an air raid there one night and about 21 casualties, half of them serious and half of them slightly.

From the Middle East we went to Alexandria and when onboard a ship called the Circassia and that took us to Sicily

where we were transhipped onto a French Ship called the Ile de France which incidentally won the Croix de Guerre at Narvik the ship. Beautiful little ship, and they put us all on that. And then at night time rushed us straight from Sicily round underneath Sardinia and up landed at the Port of Ajaccio at Corsica.

No, we all thought that we were there for part of the attack on Italy and everything cause while we were there our planes, we were stationed at a place, an aerodrome just south of Bastia which is almost opposite Elba and our planes would do strafing all the reinforcements that the Germans were taking down for the battle of Naples and Rome. And that’s why we got

done over properly one night by the Germans when they knocked all our aircraft out and the Americans down the road lost a lot of people as well. And after the, well after we got all our planes serviceable and everything again. I think out of the three squadrons on the drome, there was a funny set up, we was a RAAF squadron,

an RAF squadron and a Rhodesian squadron of Spitfires and they were doing all fighter cover for the Americans bombers that were stationed on Corsica and Sardinia and we were more or less under American control and with a RAF wing commander in charge and doing all the fighter cover for their planes and strafing and everything they could strafe on the way down.

After the air raid I think our squadron only had 3 planes that were left but by the end of the day, the squadron was fully operational again. And after some weeks and everything there we were moved to the other side of the island and still doing fighter cover for all the American planes were going over with big bombing raids on Southern France.

And after that had been all softened up and everything troops landed, our squadron was landed on the 3rd front of Southern France which was not a lot known about, or not mentioned much. We landed from landing ship tanks, American LST [Landing Ship Tank] on the beach at St. Maximes [actually St. Raphael] and were taken to an aerodrome called Quers [actually Oujda] I think it is

which had an enormous big hanger on it for dirigibles and everything and we were stationed there for some time and they were doing reconnaissance work and other work, strafing into Northern Italy. We were only there for a short time and as I said this was an American Invasion, the American and Free French and seeing as we had been with them all at Corsica they thought it was right for us to be with

them thing but when the higher ups got to know about it there was a bit of a political thing, we were pulled straight out by LST and brought back to Naples. We were there for a few weeks and then they transhipped us around to England. And we landed in England on the 1st of December 1944. In the middle of the night

we were taken by train down to an aerodrome called Hawkinge, which is not far out of Folkestone landed down there at midnight, snowing like hell and that’s where we were stationed there for a while. From Hawkinge we went onto a Spitfire [fighter aircraft] I think they were mark 16’s at that time, which had fitted with Rolls Royce motors made by

Packard from America, under licence, no way near as good as the Rolls Royce Engines even though they were made under licence. We were in Hawkinge for a while and then we were moved to Manston, which is the longest airstrip in England. Where all the damaged bombers would land there on their way back from. And Manston

the planes were fitted bomb racks and everything again, we were doing practice dive-bombing on the Goodwin Sands which are not far out from there and it was from there that I was sent to Transit Camp down at Brighton ready to come home. The squadron went from there further to another place in England and they were engaged on dive-bombing things

on V1, V2 [rocket powered unguided missile] sites. The poor little spitfire had a 250 pound bomb under each main plane and a 500 pound under the middle. Down to Brighton which was the transit camp for the RAAF in the Hotel Metropole and New Zealand’s had the

Hotel Grand and I was there for about a month waiting for a ship and then I went up to Liverpool and came home on the Nieuw Amsterdam, which was the smallest ship on the convoy going away. So I came home on that one. And we were 2, 3 days sailing off Fremantle when VE [Victory in Europe] Day was declared. So from

the time I left home till the time I got back the year was what 4 years and 6 weeks.

Yeah a long time. But the squadron went onto several places in England and after VE day the squadron went to over to Europe as part of the to Germany as part of the Air Force of Occupation.

And as they say it’s the only it and another RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force] squadron were the only two squadrons ever to be in an Air Force of Occupation in Germany and I think our Squadron 451 was the only RAAF squadron to partake in the landing on the continent. In the front of the Continent. So

from a very unglamorous Army Cooperation Squadron early in the piece, then a fighter squadron and Air Force of Occupation. And there was at least one member of our squadron that went away with us was still in it until the squadron was disbanded in England in 1946. So whether he is still alive or anything like that I wouldn’t know.

I’ll tell you one interesting little story of Corsica while we were there. Some of them went up in the hills and everything in time, there were a lot of pigs running around and everything. So they shot a few of these wild pigs and brought them back down to the squadron, thought they’d have a feast. Our squadron doctor, Squadron Leader Perritay he’d

dissected a few of them and they had to hide that, so he wouldn’t let them eat them or everything. But the only wild thing that was wild about the pigs was the farmer who owned the things. They was quite a bit of a diplomatic thing went on between the powers that be before a settlement was made to quieten things down. And it’s funny while our plane used

to take off there, we were beside a bit of a river there and it was well snow water and everything, melted because it had snow on it during the winter. But while we were there we’d just strip off and into the icy water and come out and get dressed again and wait for the planes to come back for refuelling and rearming and everything. But and some of the fellows got to know quite a few of the people

there that were fighting during the German occupation. Couple of them only young girls, 14 or 15 and it mentions one of them in the book that I’ve got there. But we got on very well there and it was the same when we went to France and we had our big slouch hats there and a lot of the younger ones thought we were Americans but some of the older

people that knew everything they grew their fellows (UNCLEAR) and the knew the hats from the First World War and we were very welcome.

Yes

Back, they had Sardinia and they had Corsica and it was when they were driven off there was when we were taken around to there. But while we were there they were still occupying Elba, which we could see from

Corsica. And after the Italian campaign had got well under way and everything but then they took Elba as well. Cleared that off and our pilots were doing cover over Elba and spotting and everything for them while that was taken. So the squadron was fairly close actually to the action there on Corsica,

we were actually above what the line was over in Italy, cause they were down around about Rome and we were much higher up, getting up nearly up level of Leghorn.

Oh the air raid came over and when we heard them a couple of fellows said I think we better go to slip trenches, so we do and down came

the main and dropped all their flares and everything and they were low level bombing and all the fellows that were killed, they dropped these bombs, big container type that opened up on the way down and all these little 2 pound anti personnel and anti bombs all dropped out and some of the fellows were killed were even in slip trenches or underneath trucks. And they just ripped all the

tents and everything to pieces and everything. And they were that low that some of them were even below the flare levels that they’d dropped. And after they’d done us they’d gone away. It was a bit later on they came down and bombed the American drome just further down the road. And they lost a lot of people as well.

Yes American anti aircraft gunner were right round the thing

I was in a…our tent was alongside a big drain that had a culvert over it and we were down underneath the culvert and one of the guns was just the other side of it of the culvert that we were in, going away like anything. I think the guy’s trying to bury down into the dirt I think.

Oh very noisy and a bit scary and everything after they’d gone. Everybody came out from their things and found the fellows that had been hit and everything. And we

were just told to leave the camp and go up into the hill a bit and stay there until morning. We came back to get all the planes going and they moved our camp off site from alongside the aerodrome to just down the road a little bit. So we’d come to up in the lorries each day to the plane and the night time we go back and live in tents and everything away from the drome. But that was the only time that they came over.

A lot of them were, there were some that were unserviceable, reinforcements were flown in the next day and other that were able to be fixed up and everything they were all fixed up so as the everything was up because it was very imperative for those squadron to be keep attacking the reinforcements that were going down to Rome and everything and also to prepare for the

cover for the invasion on Southern France. They were replaced very quickly.

No, no I didn’t.

Yes very, very unusual, we were loaded onto an LST in fact I’ve got some photos there of the LST with the doors open with all the trucks coming out at St Maximes.

Up off the beach with our trucks up to the aerodrome at Quers.

No daytime, daytime. That was, the Germans had all gone by then except for a few couple of isolated sniper things going on in Toulon, cause it wasn’t far from Toulon and there’s still a little bit of cleaning up to do there. And Quers is a bit

north of there.

No, no we just went straight from Corsica to France.

I think it would have been within a couple of days. Because they cleaned them out pretty quickly. I don’t think they met a terrible lot of resistance; it would have been very unexpected I think.

Oh it was good, there were all locals and everything watching us come off and everything. Drive up, like a welcoming party.

A lot of local people hanging around, they were, I think they were very glad to see all the Americans and the Free French arrive.

From Toulon going over towards where Cannes is you come across St. Raphael, St Maximes all of them on the Southern coast of France between Toulon and Cannes. So we were a bit fortunate while we were there and thing had gone well and we weren’t

required to do a lot and everything there. So we were able to take a little bit of leave and I got as far as up to Nice a truckload the CO and everything was very good, while you’re here and things have quietened down away we went and headed up to Nice and back and when they bought us from Corsica back to Italy we went to get on the LST we were taken down to Marseilles, and got onboard the

LST at Marseilles back to Naples.

That was towards the end of 19, no it would be about the middle of 1944 I think.

Yes

Yes, yeah

The doctor, he was a Squadron Leader and a top surgeon. As a matter a fact when my wife had her veins all stripped

and tied and everything he was one of the top vascular surgeons. He was, the day before he did her veins was the Queens first visit out here and he was made honorary vascular surgeon for the Queen and we congratulated him on it and he says I hope I don’t have to touch. But while we were in Corsica he decides some of the lads might want to instead of going down to the, some of them use to go down to the Brothels and beside that

he went and recruited some of the girls himself and set one of his own up. In a little town outside and one of his medical orderly’s there all the time and he said don’t you dare let any of you fellows see anywhere else but there.

No, no.

Yes totally Australian.

Not a great deal of them because when we were up in the desert for the relief of Tobruk and everything. 3 Squadron and 450 Squadron were taking part in the Syrian Campaign and when we came out they came

down and crossed over they went up the desert and we went up to Syria just doing defence and everything up there while they were part of the actual El Alamein push which we came back later on and were just on the tail end of that when they were well up. And then they went from North Africa into Italy so we didn’t see, no but we had interchange of pilots between

the two squadrons some of ours went to 3 and 450 and some from 450 came to us.

There was cause 3 Squadron would only do a certain amount of time because they were being reinforced from Australia and being repat, others repatriated at a certain time. We had

no repatriation what so ever until when we were on Corsica the first letter came through from the thing that they were going to start a repatriation scheme for ground crew. And the first of our fellows allowed to come home it was a lot of about 20 came home from Corsica. I came home from when we were out in England I was about I think

in the second lot that came home, so things like that yes they were permanent squadron being permanent replaced that was one of the things that why we weren’t allowed to have a lot of their people come to us early in the place because the RAAF wanted full control of reinforcements and repatriation with them and didn’t want them to be integrated into our squadrons which were the ATF [Australian Task Force] squadrons

but we did have a few of their NCOs come to us because we were short of NCOs at the time, didn’t have any fully trained flight sergeants, sergeants so some of them were posted to us for a while until we became proficient and then they went back to the squadron.

Much, much.

A lot of our officers, you’ll see them in photographs there they couple of them even use to come and work on their planes to with us. We could talk to them, eat with them. Very much more easy going between things and I think it created more respect than it did for the other ones that were

more you know strict and everything, they had great respect for each other. A couple of the pilots wrote very glowing reports on their ground staff and everything they said they didn’t know how that they would have got on without them, they didn’t know how they kept the planes in such good order and everything as what they were.

We had some great fellows, our pilots they were. Well when we were living in our little bivouac tents up in the desert, they just had little bivouac tents too (UNCLEAR). They, well over in Sydney at the Anzac Day services there, there’s a couple of the pilots are still able

to get to there. Back in Melbourne at the last air force march there was myself and on other man march from 451 Squadron and when we had our reunion there was only 4 of us there and that about, there not many of us left here. A few more in Sydney but I think when the book, Bankstown to Berlin was written in 1996 there were a hundred

known roughly still alive out of about 580 that went through the squadron. But from 96 to now it would have, at least a quarter of those or more have died since then.

Not a great deal. They were a few mile down the road from us, the only one’s we did were the gunners that were around the,

the anti aircraft gunners that were around the squadron, but we didn’t have much to do with them. The only ones we had much to do with was when we were on the LSTs because they were Americans. And while we were on the LSTs the food that was on those was enormous, they didn’t go without anything.

Well on the LSTs we did yeah. The only thing with them, I did that the camera that I use to take photos with, the cows

went through our, while we were up on deck with all our stuff down underneath, they went through all our things and might camera went missing and a few other things. But no we found them you know quite easy going and everything to get on with.

All moved on it got up then it was a pretty quick push then they got up past Leon and everything and it when they were up past Leon that we came out. No I think, I think it might have been totally unexpected and it was a very quick push up through there.

Out of Southern France we put all our gear on trucks and went along to Marseilles and got on another American LST which brought us back to Naples.

Oh they were reasonable, reasonable speak English, while I was there we were camped in a half a Spaghetti Factory actually, one half was still making spaghetti and we’re camped in the other half

of it. While I was there I believe I was lucky enough to go to an opera while I was there.

Madame Butterfly we saw there. So it sounds like a cook’s tour doesn’t it? But no we were able to get there, we were there for a couple of months before we went by ship over to England. And was able to get from there to look over Pompeii too.

Very, very interesting

with all the excavations and everything. And we remember the, they were very small people back there in Pompeii days because they’ve got some that were preserved in all the ash and everything taken there. People probably still go there, they’ve still got them there in little glass thing and they’re fairly small people. And a lot of the streets had been excavated out with everything on them.

No, no no it was all gone right up north. No action at all. Naples had gone, Rome had gone right up to North of the Italian campaign was almost at a finish then.

Well when we came back to Naples?

They only brought back to tranship us round to England.

Yeah that’s all. All our equipment and everything left there and just took it back to England and all fully reequipped in England?

Yes,

The situation in England at that time, we were at Hawkinge and they were doing

patrols and everything over the Channel and over to France and everything and that’s when the V2 and V1 were still going at that time.

Yes, you could hear them, while the engine kept going you were right, and if it stopped you’d know that it would come down and everything, but they devised that they were shooting them down and everything but there was

a Polish Squadron a bit further round in England and they use to fly up along side them and they would put the tip of their plane under the buzz bomb and just tip it up and it would go straight down. They worked out that was safer than shooting them when they blew up and you’ve got all the debris and everything which was a bit of a danger to them. So like that. But the V2s were the biggest worry for the people in London because they wouldn’t know anything until they went off.

Yes, yes they were the first of your

rockets, yeah.

You see later on the squadron when it was move to another aerodrome up in further up North of London that’s what they were doing dive-bombing on

V2 sites.

Well ordinary bombing is just on the straight level and the other planes that are dive bombing dive down towards the target and let them go.

They dive down let them go and then off.

See the Germans were very good at it with what they call their Stukas, their Stuka dive-bomber was especially built for that only.

On no, no, Lancasters, Halifaxes that was all just straight level and all American Flying Fortresses and everything they were all higher level bombing and just done with their bomb sights where they thought they had it right and just let them go.

What sort?

Well when I was off the squadron then, but I’ve got the photos there they had a 250 pound bomb under each main plane and a 500 pound underneath the fuselage

and they said can you imagine a Spitfire with 1000 pounds of bombs on it.

Don’t know, they said

Isn’t it yeah? Some people might think, a lot of rubbish they don’t have that, but I’ve got photographs

of them there with them on.

No, no, no I had left the squadron by the time they were using the bombs on them. The only time I ever had them is when we had the practice bombs underneath them out in the desert when they were doing a bit of practising.

Yes, yes, yes, that’s what it was used for all their practise bombing and everything.

That’s funny they’re still finding unexploded bombs.

All over the place.

Parts of Germany, France, England they’re still finding them.

In England, 1st of December ’44, I must have left there about May.

Yes,

Quite good down Christmas at Hawkinge, when all the officers

waited on their Ground staff for Christmas Dinner which was very good. And having escaped all this and everything a lot of people go to London and everything to have a look around there. I had some leave, I wouldn’t go to London to trust anymore, getting hurt by V2s or V1s, I went to Scotland and mine up to Edinburgh and I found that was

really beautiful city, Edinburgh. Looked around Edinburgh castle which is where the War Museum and everything is it’s very, very nice. And whilst there, there was a place at Edinburgh called Usher Hall and where I went to a concert one night and saw Vera Lynn herself singing at the Concert.

So but so that’s what I did with the leave that I got instead of going to London to look around, I went up there cause why trust your luck.

When you might get hit with a V1 or a V2.

Yes

Mmmm.

No, no I didn’t see much of England at all

I’m not sure whether it had been bombed or not, I didn’t see any bomb damage or anything there, no.

It was all along the whole along, right along Princess Street the main street which shops on one side like gardens and everything, castle there, I didn’t see any damage there at all. It’s funny it was warmer up there than what it was in the South of England at the time.

It was a bad winter. When we’d arrived there at that time it had been the worst winter that they’d had in fifty years down the south of England.

And yet up at Edinburgh we found it was better than what it was down in Southern England.

Well when we arrived there after coming up after Middle East although we’d been in the Middle East but after being in the Middle East we went to bed at night with our clothes on and our overcoats over the bed and everything. And we were given a special allocation of cold

for a while till we acclimatised. Because as you know England and that was well and truly rationed.

We when we, I think they must have had a fairly hard time I think with the rationing and everything. But we were lucky we use to get parcels sent from home or from the Australian Comforts Fund and everything. And we got to know, well in Edinburgh

I got to know a family up there and we took all our stuff and everything to there and they thought great you know. A couple of meals with them, the family there and when I came home I was corresponding with them for a long time and even after we were married we use to send over food parcels but gradually it all just went by.

Oh write letters at home

and you’d get letters on occasions. It use to take a fair while for mail to come home and mail to come back. And everything was censored, that we wrote.

I think so, I think there would be a certain amount of censorship in those days. Our letters, you’d write a letter home and it use to have to go to one of the officers

that would censor them when they came in.

Oh yeah, we knew all about that.

Well as I said we had volunteered as a squadron to come back several times but no that wasn’t allowed and had to stay there until things finished. And looking back on it there you can understand why because of

if they hadn’t of fully defeated Germany and everything where, I think the Japanese would have just been able to march through because all those forces wouldn’t have been able to come back here. And so one part had to be cleaned up before the other part was cleaned up. And looking back in hindsight you can understand reasons for us having to stay over there. But that was hard to

convince to some people that had been sending some of them lads their letters.

Mmm, And if they send them white feathers, and where they got the white feathers in Corsica is where we lost people killed you know. It sort of doesn't make the fellows feel too good.

We all lived as one big happy family and all got on all right.

Yes

The planes we had first at Hawkinge were Mark 16 Spitfires and they were the ones with Packard Merlin Motors in them but no where near as good as the genuine Rolls Royce. Later on

long after I’d left the squadron they were reequipped with Spitfire Mark 14 now that sounds funny that the 16 were the Packard but the 14s had a Rolls Royce Griffin motor in them which are much bigger and a more powerful motor and everything. It seems funny it’s the same when we were out in the Middle East with one Mark Spitfire

the next lot we got were I think they were 9’s the next one’s we got were 8’s and they were better than the 9’s but the 9’s were one’s that were done in a hurry for awhile whereas the other ones were on the drawing board and were genuinely design for that were a better plane. It just as happen to…they modify one and call it a Mark 9 and

gave it for you and then the other one would have been designed and everything come out would be a much better, same plane but a much better. And that’s the same as the Mark 16 and the Mark 14.

Well from England, that when they were doing out, they doing the firing the bombing, dive-bombing and fighter cover for

different things. Well I’d left the squadron at this time but it tells you in the book there how one particular times it was too far for them so they were able to land in Belgium, (UNCLEAR) refuel, reequip go one and come back. That’s the type of work they were doing there.

No, no I think they might have lost a pilot but no, no none of the fellows no. That’s whilst we were at Hawkinge too there’s a bit of a to do there one time just regressing a bit, when we were in Syria, Syria was a highly malarious place,

we had a lot of fellows got Malaria there and we had no such thing as Atebrin or anything. When we were in Corsica, Corsica was very high Malaria but by that time we had Atebrin and we just look like Chinamen. So when we went to England and to Hawkinge, Mr Drakeford came to see us, he was the Minister for air and we were all there in the thing and Air Marshal Williams was with us, the CO of the RAF

Air Base at Hawkinge and Ray Quib was going on about us and some of them were going crook about not being relieved until this. And he started saying this about oh yes but the fellows in the Pacific and everything (UNCLEAR) Malaria and everything they all got stuck into him, properly and I know the CO Group Captain said you cant talk like that. Just a so and so, he’s an Australian we’re Australian we’ll speak to him how we like and they really got stuck into him and he turned round

and said why wasn’t I told where this squadron has been, I thought they’d been stationed here in England. We had fellows on the squadron that had 2 or 3 relapses of malaria, they’re still on it and he was absolutely (UNCLEAR) nobody had told him. So no wonder they got into him.

Well he didn’t, I think he just thought he was talking to a squadron that had been in England all the time

as quite a few, 453 and quite a lot of the others and 460 and all those they’d been in England all this time. But he just happen to struck a squadron that had seen quite a bit of service right through the Middle East and through France through Corsica and everything and he didn’t know. Till he got well informed tho.

That was very good, came home as I said on the Nieuw Amsterdam which is a Dutch ship about 37 odd thousand tonne and coming home on that. I had a lot of there was a Royal Marine Band on that and there were a lot of Royal Marines coming out and there were a lot of English Wrens coming out onboard and everything. And that was quite

a reasonable trip home because I was in a cabin that only had 3 bunks in it. And no so that was as I said VE day came about 2 or 3 days sailing off Fremantle and the order came through then from England. Splice the main Brace and everyone got issued with overproof rum. And a few days

later we arrived at Fremantle.

No we came home from Southampton down through, through the Suez Canal, first stop Fremantle. Yet on the way over on the Queen Mary we went and stopped at Trincomalee, well that’s a big port in Ceylon or Sri Lanka as they call it now. But on the way home no it was all the way home to Fremantle.

Through the Suez

Very good, it was going through the place where we’d been before and it was quite interesting trip coming through the Suez Canal. Much, much sand just desert either side.

No, no it came back on it’s own.

Oh no well war was practically.

A bit thin. The only thing that could have been any danger then was from the Japanese. I think it was at that time. So it was a more or less pleasant trip home.

No there were about

about 20 of us.

It was very good; we got off and had a few hours leave and everything. Only there for a little while and then from there straight round to Sydney. And disembarked there and went to Bradfield Park. From Bradfield Park, there a couple of days,

hopped on a train down to Melbourne and arrived here given straight away on 2 or 3 weeks leave and then at that time I had been away for over 4 years and at that time a thing came out that when you came home you weren’t allowed to be posted outside your home state then

so what did they do with me, they posted me to Mildura. Yep Mildura back in those days, back in those tin Nissan huts and everything again, sandstorms there cause that was in the middle of winter, it was cold and everything and you thought you were back in the desert again. They’d have been better off posting me to Sydney or to Queensland or something. But I was only up there

for a few months and then I came through and I was discharged, it was August or September I think. Only about a month after the war finished with Japan. But while we were up there VJ Day [Victory over Japan] came, while we were up at Mildura and the CO up there was a Group Captain Jeffries and he’d been over in the desert with 3 Squadron and he wouldn’t bloody give anybody leave to come to Melbourne for VJ Day. Only gave them 24

hours leave and of course up there was an all night train journey to get to Melbourne and back so I came down to Melbourne, as did a couple of other, couple of hundred of them, well when we got back he had SPs [Security Police] on all the gates and booked everybody and everything. So I got booked 2 days pay. But I wasn’t, having been away, still at sea at VE Day I was going to come

down to Melbourne to be home with the Family on VJ Day but that’s what happened with him so. We all reckon he was a bit of a stinker after that. And that was funny the officers that I appeared before was a Flight Lieutenant Fires who had been on 451 Squadron as an Intelligence officer so but I did two days pay just the same.

Well by the time I got down there everything was all over cause you know VJ Day came probably two days after and I was down there and I just went home to the family and the girlfriends I had then before I met my wife. Her best friend.

We’d been corresponding all the time and everything so I came home, that’s when I met Leslie

I use to go over to the, her and this other girl to the Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital every week. Entertaining the troops or take in food and parcels over there and that when I first me her. After I’d been going with the other girl a few years she two-timed off with another fellow and Leslie and I became engaged and married. So

now we’ve been married what about 54 years.

She married another fellow. That had just come back from up in the Pacific. So she’d married and she’s got a family too. We’ve met her since.

Mmm. yeah,

It’s one of those things; I think it happened to quite a few fellows.

Same there on planes, exactly the same thing. Because there was a big training school and everything there. But it wasn’t much to do after a while because

not much gunnery going on it was practically at the end of the war and everything so it was just more or less going down the workshops working a bit on the planes.

Yes, yes at the time you know a lot of people going crook about it, I said damn good thing it’s finished the war.

And after all if they’d have had to go in without those types of bombs no doubt it would have been the Americans, British, Australians would have lost thousands of people. I think it’s hard to say I suppose but it’s far better the other way than to lose our own.

I don’t think so then but you hear a lot of them going crook about it now, that it should never

have been done and every thing but what would you rather see a couple of hundred thousand of what was the enemy then go or about half a million or so of your own go. At that time it’s the only way, it was kill or be killed. You know distasteful, as it seem it’s the only way to be about it.

I mean nobody goes away wanting to kill anybody but self-preservation I suppose.

Yes I was discharged from there; orders came through up to there because I had to report back to the MCG [Melbourne Cricket Ground] So the MCG was all air force and everything back in those days.

Nothing just gave me a thing and gave you coupons for clothing, food and everything and just on leave for a certain amount of time and then discharge on such and such a date.

Yes in a way yet when the Korean

situation arose what did I do went and joined up the Air Force Reserve. I was on the Air Force Reserve for quite a few years.

Pascoe Vale South.

No, no not yet I didn’t get, that was in

’45, I didn’t get married until 1949. Funny how I was 29 when I was married. My son was 29 when he got married, my daughter was 29 when she got married, my wife’s father was 29 when he was married, strange as it

Just as it happened.

I went back

to a place called City Motors Panel Beating and everything in O’Connell Street in North Melbourne, I first of all went to work out at Ansett motors and they were making buses and everything. And a fellow there gave me a job to do which I did and I finished and I went back to get another job I’ve finished and he said oh no you’re still doing that, so I said this is no good to me I’m leaving and he said you cant leave it Manpower

I’ve got news for you I don’t come under Manpower I’ve been discharge after all this time I was a free agent and I said I’m just going. So I went back and got a job at this place City Motors Panel Beating and Engineering Works and I was there for quite a few years and I got married while I was working there and we were living at Chelsea so the travelling became a bit too much so I went to a place Bronson Motors down at Chelsea and worked there for a while

and then there was two other panel beaters myself and a spray painter we all gave notice and we started our own business down in Mentone, and that was going extremely well. And it’s funny one of the assessors use to come round, I knew him because he was the Manager of Melbourne Motor and Engineering Works where I was working before the war. So we got on and he put a bit of work our way

a couple of smashes and everything and he’d move them down to us. After a while my wife’s father got sick and he had a business out in Pascoe Vale, he owned a Service Station so I sold out my share of the business and when out to work for him for a few years and we moved form Chelsea to Pascoe Vale for four years. And then we sold our place up there and built a house just round the corner here and came back here to work

and I went back panel beating for a while and then the job as an assessor with Club Motor Insurance as it was first then changed its name to AAMI [Australian Associated Motor Insurers Limited].

Neither could we, the fellow, anybody who got, I didn’t get one but any of the fellows that get it couldn’t understand it, they’re fighting their guts out and just lost a few blokes and everything and people back here reckon they’re over there shirking.

Well it’s not just our squadron, I think, I think others as well.

I think only people overseas, they shouldn’t have been there, should have been back there. See the same kind of thing happened with the 9th Division, they wanted them back there but they know made them, Churchill and that kept them there and everything and they were in the battle of Alamein. It was actually the Australian and New Zealanders that broke

the line at Alamein. But after Alamein was finished then they brought them back here and sent them up north. But before that people were going crook they shouldn’t be.

No.

I had one he came from Fiji, he was an armourer and later on transferred to a Fitter Motor to Transport loader, because he was involved with motors over in, but he was a bit of a funny turn and everything now and again he’d have a pretend making of a Indian curry and dance round, you know how the Indians use to do it over in Fiji and he was one of the ones they use to take me out

and make sure they got home. And another one is another armourer Bobby Jaggers.

Australian.

But he was working over there in the Gold Mines. Over New Zealand in the motor mechanic and came to Fiji, he’s now up in Queensland. Anyone one a fellow named Jaggers he was another armourer

there was three of us use to go out, we were together. Cause we all in the same Bivouac tent and everything right through the (UNCLEAR) so naturally you stick together. The squadron had a cricket team to at times that played a few matches whilst we were at Idku in Alexandria and waiting there to go up to Syria. And this Jaggers bloke he was a good bowler and

sometimes I use to keep the scorecards for them, they had a few cricket matches. And now and again they’d have a few football match against AIF fellows and that does happen from time to time where you’re coming out of one lot and going to a base, just waiting you know to go onto the next or waiting to be reequipped with a little bit of spare time and you get

with some of the other units and have a footy match or a cricket match.

No, no, no. We were on the move too much, you’d be only a few days at the one place and up off you might be for a few days. But fast

moving.

Another was the Secretary of the squadron’s Association over in Sydney now. John Colbert, well he still writes out a newsletter to all of the ones of us that are left, every every three months I suppose, a bit of a newsletter.

He has a pretty good knowledge of a lot of things too because all the fellows have written to him about different things and he was one of the book committee, involved in the Bankstown to Berlin Book. But it’s hard to remember a lot of them really it’s just that long ago.

Yes

Well some came from Melbourne, some came from Sydney, there were some from Queensland, some from South Australian and some from Western Australia. Unlike an army unit which all come from one place. An Air Force Squadron is made up of people that come from all over the country. Country people, city people everything they all

just come to well like I was to rookie at Laverton and Point Cook and posted down to Somers, Somers to the squadron, that happened all round the country to the ones and they were all just posted to Bankstown to form a the squadron.

No. only at the at Anzac Day or reunion that they’d have. Here in Melbourne we had Anzac Day and then we use to have, well we still do but there’s only a couple of us left to do it. The nearest Sunday to Remembrance Sunday in November, for years we went to Point

Cook, especially when all the cadets and everything were down there. It was used for training before they were moved up to the main, Duntroon I think it is, or somewhere else where they’ve done it now. But we use to have our Remembrance Day reunion at Point Cook with wives and everything would come we would have a Barbecue down there. It use to be a

remembrance service with the guard of honour and everything but that’s all gone since the main RAAF has been moved away from Point Cook and that type of thing. And now the last couple of years we’ve gone our to Fairfield RSL but the last time there were only 4 of us there. I don’t know how long that will go, I think one of those wont be there next year I don’t think.

I think now becomes a little more emotional now at times. I went to one of ours passed away only

some months ago and I went to the funeral down here at Mentone and I think oh sort of that becomes a little more emotional than it was when we were away, cause when we’re away your in action and everything and it…well you don’t expect it buts it’s more ore less part and parcel of the job your doing while you’re away, somebodies killed, well they’ve got to be buried,

done away with and you’ve got a job to continue on doing and your kept busy. When you’re back here you’ve got more time to reflect on it. Go to the funeral, full funeral service and everything, more reflection so it gets a little more emotional.

Right yes, I basically became a bit more worldly wise and know how to look after yourself a little bit better. And

don’t know just got to keep on look after yourself and do the best you can.

Grew up to a certain extent yes but still I was thinking I was still a little on the quiet side, I’ve always sort have been like that.

Oh yes some of our fellows are real larrikins and everything, some of them and everything, no I was always pretty quiet always some of them say a bit of a stick in the mud what am I suppose to do. It’s like I’m at the bowls club, I’m on the Rules and Bylaw Committee and they always go crook, I always want to do

thingos by the thing cause I say once you start breaking one rule it leads to another rule being broken, so you’ve got to stick by it. And that’s the way I’ve been brought up and that’s the way I’ve always been. Can’t see myself changing now.

No, no that was the CO of the Squadron would go through his personnel and go through the files and everything and decided which ones would go and which ones wouldn’t. Naturally the first lot that were repatriated from Corsica were all, practically all

married men or some that had some commitment back home personally, they were the first lot that came. I was in the lot that came from when we were in Manston in England in 44 and well they knew that I had a brother and a sister back here and family history of things so I was in

practically the second big batch that came back home.

Oh I dare say, if you’d gone and said I don’t want to go home and everything, but at that stage I didn’t mind coming home at all. There had been a lot of us looking forward to the day when we could get home.

Yeah

Also having this other girl that I had been corresponding with all the time and everything, thought you know get home. Not that it turned out the right one but that’s another reason for wanting to get home.

No we were a bit hostile about it and thought that well, people thought that we were over there having a holiday and we weren’t, we’d been living in the very harsh and hard conditions all the time and lost people. We were very very hostile, in fact it created

a lot of anger and everything amongst the squadron. Even if there’s only a couple of them got them, right through the squadron, big trouble.

No only by having other people come to us from one of the other squadrons and talk and talk it over and with the Padres that were there, talked about

when we lost the people in Corsica, one of the RAAF Padres happen to be with us at the time which Fred Mackay, when he came back here he took over from were Flynn of the Outback had left off and he was the Royal Flying Doctor Man, one of the aircraft is named after him actually now and it’s only

things like that settled everybody back down and got on with the job. Another one was, he wasn’t with us that time, but other times he’d been with us was a fellow named Bob Davies which became Bishop of Tasmania and the Roman Catholic fellow was fellow named of McNamara but he passed away quite a few years ago, he was the first one to pass away.

And Fred Mackay only died a couple of years ago.

Not really, we’re pretty lucky none of our fellows sort of went as they use to say ‘troppo’ [mentally affected by war time experiences] or anything about it, no. Pretty good level-headed lot of fellows they were. And some of our Ground Staff, Aircraft Gunners they use to call them with like machine guns sort of on five point thing had a bit of firing off and everything.

Well the ground gunners and everything you know, they’d be, might have a Lewis gun or something like that mounted on a tripod with Aerodrome defence and they’d be there firing their guns and everything at them. And they were a pretty good lot of fellows they were, naturally you’d be a bit scared while it was going on but when it’s all over and everything they were just on with your job and into it again.

Yeah that happened.

I suppose the aircraft they

That was up in the desert this one time when the squadron was strafed by some other Hurricanes that probably mistaken the aircraft on the ground or

mistaken position or something but luckily there was no damage or anything done not that luckily, bad shots, hopefully. All woke up quickly, and awake, you can bet your life there’d be some signals going on. The worse friendly fire was the Yanks [Americans] bombing New Zealanders or anything. That happened a couple of times up in the desert.

Well on aerial reconnaissance the Hurricane would have a couple of cameras fitted in belly of the fuselage.

They’d go out and have to do a rec and order photograph on different places and there’d be another aircraft go with them as cover. And the poor old pilot in the recky [reconnaissance] kite would have to fly on a straight and level flight at a certain speed and go over with the cameras going all the time. Other aircraft around seemed like an eternity to him. They lost a few planes like that shot down.

We have South African Pilots, lost a few of those had some RAF Pilots and then we had some RAAF Pilots. We were fortunate most of the RAAF Pilots seemed to get by and survive. But the South African ones we lost a few of them. Not very glamorous work you have to do, but work that had to be done. So if they wanted aerial photos or

some recon work to bring back and tell the liaison officer.

No the pilots do all the photographic stuff and when we came back we had our own dark room special caravan, truck caravan things with about

photographers on the squadron. One of whom is pretty well known was Lawrence Laguy who later became an official war photographer. After he left the squadron when he, well he was taken away from us while we were still Army Coop [Cooperation] being that well known in the photography game, off he went. But we had the other, about another 3 photographers that were perfectly in, well that was their mustering.

when we went away, they went away with the squadron as photographers and that was it.

Yes

No,

no there was a couple mates to. Another mate with me, I forget his name now it might have been Christian I think, I’m not sure. And as I say we got very friendly with a family up there and went to, had a couple of meals with them and the parcels that we took, we were lucky to be there at New Years Eve, Hogman’s eve they call it which is quite a good time for the Scots in

up at Edinburgh. And as I said before able to see the Concert with Vera Lynn and everything else so.

Yes, yeah we use to hear her over the air, when we were in the Middle East and everything. Quite good to be able to see her in person.

Once or twice we heard that. But not a great deal that was mainly I think aimed at England itself that one. But we had pamphlets dropped on well the troops at Tobruk and somewhere else, I’ve got a copy of a couple of those. One saying Yanks are having a good time back in your country

and you, what are you doing here?.

No.

No, just laughter that’s all. I think it’s the same with Lord Haw Haw, I think it’s just a bit of laughter with everybody.

Yes, yes when we went to Syria from the desert, went up to Syria in batches we were given a bit of leave and on my leave I went to Jerusalem with a couple of chaps who, I don’t know their names who they were but I

happen to be Anglican and a couple of those were Roman Catholic, when we were there we had a Dominican Father of the Catholic Order happen to be known to one of them and he was the priest in charge of the Church of the Holy Inception and he took us there and all over that we saw Christ’s Tomb and other things there and then

he introduced us to a Franciscan Monk who was in charge of the Church of Nativity, so he took us out to the Church of Nativity and we were there when the famous Bells were there and the choir singing and everything and we heard all that and he took us underneath to show us the Catacombs underneath and where the bones of the holy innocence are but a lot of people don’t happen to see that and that was our…and we were there on Palm Sunday so that was our leave. That’s how I and a couple of others

spent ours while others went off on the town, so. It’s funny, or before that once we were down at Idku while we were at Heliopolis in think it was camp waiting for equipment. I did, I became, took confirmation classes there and confirmed in the Cairo

Cathedral by name of a fellow Beaumaris Gellafate the assistant Bishop who to the Sudan. And myself and another friend of mine named Cummings, he then took us to lunch in the Bishops Palace so that was my introduction, that was one of my reasons staying with the other fellows and going and seeing the sights in Jerusalem.

No I’d start off I use to go when I was a kid with my things I use to go to Sunday school at the Methodist church out in Coburg and I had other friends, I use to go to Presbyterian Church for

a while up at Pascoe Vale just now and again with friends. No not a regular churchgoer at all.

Oh just with the Padres and everything there. And I think the times as they were and everything. I thought oh well I’d be confirmed and everything.

Yeah Church of England

it was or Anglican as they call it now. And now I’m not a great churchgoer but I go to Church every Christmas eve at half past eleven, so it doesn’t take up all Christmas Day and I go on Easter Sunday. And an Anzac Service that they have at a church round here to and that’s the only three times that I go to church.

No, no only just general, a bit of general learning by Padre Bob Davies and another English Army chaplain. Just a few you know run a few things and everything there. No I wasn’t a bible basher or churchgoer or anything but just thought that that what I wanted to

do over there and I was given a bit of New Testament by Bob Davies, he signed it, it’s in the glove box of my car outside which accompanied me right through the rest of the time, which I carry in the car all the time.

No I thought it was rather fascinating seeing about people (UNCLEAR) and everything and there are all the explanations down there, go down underground and there’s part of the pool and having seen these things and everything. There’s no way you can convince me that some of those things didn’t happen. I mean I don’t believe everything,

some of the things they say in the bible happened and everything. But a lot of things did happen and the proof of it is there. But very, very fascinating and very interesting. And just outside Jerusalem is the Mount of Olives with the Church of all nations on it and every parts, different parts of the church all donated by different nations, hence the name.

I just forget, I’ve an idea, it might have been the roof of the Church for the Australian, from Australia. So it’s just the way I spent my leave to there.

Not really, up in Syria we went, it wasn’t a leave but be off, a few hours off for a day and we went to another town, a little town called Zarly [?] which is up in the mountains cause the Rayak Aerodrome was in the Bekaa Valley which is about 4000 feet above sea level and the lowest part going over to Beirut above that is another 3000 feet about that.

Going from Beirut to Damascus it’s 7000 feet up and then 3000 feet down into, well Zarly is up in the mountains and just had an afternoon there, standing around having a few drinks and the photograph of the place I’ve got, when I was an assessor at AAMI there use to be a little place along Fenick Road somewhere that use to do the front ends of Volkswagens and I was telling a fellow

there about it. He was a Lebanese. Showed him the photo and it was his grandfather’s place. Just a little aside but otherwise we didn’t get to know people very much. It was the same, when we came out of the desert and were travelling through Palestine to go to Syria we were camped, pulled up one night on there and we went to a….a fellow came and invited us to come

to their place that night it was a Jewish Kibbutz and we spent a day with them while we were all sitting around the hall and singing their songs and going on and they gave us oranges and everything like that which was bit of a change from Bully Beef. Apart from that no we didn’t have much to do with the only people we met was when we were in England.

Oh when did we come out of the desert? It was about the end of 41 we’d be up there that was about 6 months or so I suppose.

Baalbek mainly, no I didn’t get there. A lot of the fellows went up there.

Well a couple of the trucks went up for a drive went to Baalbek, no I didn’t get there. I did get to Damascus. There was another place there called a street called Straight and a church of St Paul where he was lowered down out of the window, I seen that. And it’s funny back in those days, I got a photograph there of a big semi trailer type coach, air conditioned

coach run by the Nann Brothers who were New Zealanders. Been over in the First World War, stayed there and started up a coach service from Damascus to Baghdad. So if you could imagine that running then.

Knew a little bit about it because back in our time when I was going to school it used to be taught. It hasn’t been taught for years. I think they are starting to do a bit more teaching of it now and I think it should be. My Dad when he went to school he went over to Haleabee [?] I think and one of the things that he had to do was American History.

I think that he should have had to have done Australian History. There’s not enough of our own people know the history of Australia, not that I know a lot myself. But as I say when we went to school we were taught about that and we use to have Anzac Day Services always at school. And I can remember every Monday, you had to parade every Monday and you would salute the flag, honour your parents, the flag and your country.

And I don’t think they do too much of that now either. I think that’s one thing the Americans do have over us, is their patriotism. I think the young today should be taught more patriotism. Just my own personal opinion but I think if it was like that, I think it would be a better country. I think today the young

people sort of teachers are not allowed to chastise them, or let them go crook. Back in our day we were, we were none the worse for it and I think we got better discipline for it. But still that’s just my opinion.

No, the only of course we saw was round the, round our airstrips and everything. No I didn’t get to see Corsica. Pretty mountainous place, Corsica. We were, the aerodrome where we had all the trouble was just a little bit south of Bastia

and after that we were moved to the other side of Corsica and that was where our planes were doing to cover for the South of France. And the road along there was more of less carved out of the cliff faces, only a very narrow road along there. A lot of the American Negro drivers they were pretty horrific drivers and now and again one would go over the edge and that would be the end of them.

Practically all mountain and very high malaria.

I think my favourite place of the lot would be Edinburgh. For the leave that I had there. We use to go and stay in the Forces Club and the

girls and that that worked there we use to tease hell out of them just to hear them talk and everything. Nice accent, that a very nice place, Edinburgh.

No, (UNCLEAR). No but I did go over the Firth [Firth of Forth] Bridge to

just to say we’d been over it and back. But apart from that no I didn’t see a lot. Didn’t have a lot of time, had about a fortnights leave up to Edinburgh.

No, train. Didn’t see much countryside, a little bit of countryside but not a lot cause

Yes but it’s amazing with England, travelling by train how much open countryside there is in the place. All the, with the amount of the population there is for a very small island is England. But there’s plenty of open space.

Oh no deserts never ending.

Yes, yes people get lost in the desert. The desert’s not just all flat either it’s all depression there, hills and everything, pretty rugged places in the desert. Luckily we weren’t far off the coast all the time, we were at this, apart from a couple

what they call escarpments and that which is reasonably flat.

No I don’t think so, no. I know inour book there’s a little bit about the Kantara Depression and everything, some of the long range desert units use to operate through there. One of our detachments got lost one day and ended up there with the long range desert force until they got pointed in the right way.

Well one Ray Hudson, a very well liked pilot in our squadron was a Flight Commander of one of the flights. Was moved over to 450 Squadron as a (UNCLEAR) CO Squadron Leader and he was the one that flew back to Corsica to do some of the taking to the fellows when

things were going a bit awry. Another named I think it was Archibald and he use to fly during the Vietnam War, was flying reinforcements to and from there cause his son was in Vietnam.

Another one’s name was Col Robinson, and Col Robinson came back as CO when we were in England for his third tour of duties for squadron. Having had a tour of duty with us in the desert, a tour with someone else, and he was back to do another tour with 451. A lot of people use to think they use to do one tour or two tours and go but he’d been there from early in the piece and was still there towards the end. There’s another one that’s still

in the association over in Sydney, that’s Charles Edmondson, there’s another one that was on the book committee (UNCLEAR) the book I cant remember a lot of them. But all their names are in the book there and it’s easy if you go through the book to remember them.

Another one’s George Purdies and he had another mate too, I use to go to some dinners with them over at Choices and RAAF Europe but they’re both passed away. I no longer go out to those dinners, too far to go and too late coming home at night. Getting too old. But

we had a very, very good lot of pilots, they mixed very well with the fellows, we were all just no different, one to the other. Another one of our Pilots he went on as a CO of another squadron, he was eventually taken prisoner of war and he had a pretty hard time, he got belted around a fair bit. Poor fellow he passed away back a couple of years ago it may have been from injuries and everything caused

from that and he finished up in a wheelchair. With the hands of the Gestapo [German internal security police]. And there’s a nice little piece written in the book from him about the Ground Staff and everything. That’s after that, a couple of them finished up flying, some at Ansett, some at TAA [Trans Australia Airlines].

Apart from that I can’t remember the lot back then, much more about them.

Didn’t get there for the celebrations, unfortunately.

I had some time off, had about; I think I had about a month off before I went back to work. But couldn’t stay away too long, because you had to get back.

Well deferred pay for four years? Deferred pay and

I forget what they call the other, there was another payment as well, it come from War Repat [Repatriation]. Money paid, what they call repatriation or something, what do they call it. Gratuity money, so much a day for that, yes mine all went to a block of land.

Apart from that I had to go back to work to earn my keep.

Yes, they call it Pascoe Vale South; I was living in Gallipoli Parade with my stepsister and her husband, who he was a TPI man from the first war. And that was a Soldier

Settlement there of war houses from the First World War. A Soldier Settlement thing there was quite a few streets of them Gallipoli Parade, oh about 4 or 5 other streets all named after First World War streets.

Well after the war I went to live there again, he was still away up in New Guinea. When he came home yes we were living in, his wife was living at that house with a couple of children. I more of less use to do the nursing and feeding and everything. One of them would only feed for me.

And when Dad come home yes we were all there for a few years together until he built his own place a little bit further on in Pascoe Vale and I still stayed living in Pascoe Vale with my stepsister until we were married.

Oh more of less, I came back in fairly well apart from

as I mentioned earlier, when I had the job at Ansett, I finished my job and wanted more and he didn’t (UNCLEAR) so I finished up leaving and went to work at City Motor Panel and that was constant work from there on.

No not for a while because I was on with back with the family and everything for a while. It wasn’t for a few years until I started going to reunions and everything then. And then well became good; I use to look forward to every year then at having a reunion and meeting all the fellows again. Back in those days there use to be a lot of us. It use to be met as 451 Squadron Reunion then in the old Federal Hotel corner

of …there’s a government building there now corner of Collins Street and King Street I think it is yes. The old Federal, when that went we went and we use to meet at the Hotel Francis which was in Lonsdale Street between Elizabeth Street and Queen Street.

Then when that packed up we went, we had our meetings then at Richmond Bowls Club there was still quite a lot of us, about 30 or so. Because one of our members was a member there, when he passed away it folded up and we now go to the Fairfield RSL. And now it’s down to about 4 members.

There one of those members he’s about 87 or 88 now and he’s not too good, so I don’t think he’ll be there for very much longer. But he and another one of our members they had joined the Rats of Tobruk Association too. Because the squadron was eligible to join that because they, oh they were only there was a couple of weeks

in Tobruk but eligible to join the Rats Association. Which I’ve never bothered to.

On that aerodrome, yes but not into the Tobruk township, no. They’ve got a drome, I think we were only there from the 11th to the 17th of December 41.

Oh when we first went in to relieve Tobruk they opened a corridor first for the relief of Tobruk yes we got to there, then the Germans did a counterattack and closed the corridor and that’s when we had to get out quick. And then we were out quick we come out just outside Bardia; no we didn’t get back there anymore. But that’s

where some of our fellows were. One party left there and that’s they were at Sidi Azeiz and they were the ones taken prisoner that we got back when Bardia fell. So we weren’t in there long and when they closed the corridor well we had to get out very quick you know.

No on land, straight down on land.

Not a lot. He told me a little about up there, but not much, we didn’t talk. Neither of us talked much about the war actually. As my wife said the other day when they rang up and interviewed on the phone interview

she said I’ve heard you say things that I’ve never ever heard you say before. I think it was only when he did the interview, and you’re doing the interview it’s the only time that I’ve ever spoken much about it at all.

Oh I think it’s more or less things, at

reunions and everything that’s the only time you’ll discuss with your friends cause you’ve all been through the same thing and you’ll say I remember this and we did this or we did that but generally going out, no it’s not something you do. Discuss much or anything.

No, I haven’t told them a lot about it. At all, they

know where I’ve been and everything but haven’t told them anything of all these other things that happened or don’t happen. Just say where I’ve served and where I’ve been. They know I was in a (UNCLEAR) air raid and some fellows killed and everything but I more or less don’t tell, don’t say much of it. But I’ve been in the Anzac March,

the last one my son and grand daughter came in and watched it the last couple of years they have but that’s the only time, it’s only the last two years but they’ve become very interested in it. As I think a lot of young ones are getting more interested in it now too. And in fact the grand daughter, she fifteen year old she wants to march for me now so.

Which I can see the time coming when I wont be marching any much more. Last year when I was a bit crook, this year I marched, they year before I didn’t, I rode in a truck.

They do occasionally; they still do on odd occasions now. Especially if we’ve been to see a war film or some other films sort of thing, yes they have. That’s something that you don’t like to say you know because people think you’re a bit of a wimp or troppo or something or you’re making it, no I still have some nights where you dream.

Oh hard to say, hard to explain dreams and everything they’re just dreams, wake up and cant get sleep and everything. It’s like after last Friday on the phone talking that night I couldn’t get to sleep before 2 o’clock before I went to sleep, just seem to get the thing over and just mull things

over in you mind just mulling them over, just one of those things, you say why cant I get to sleep. In the end I thing just through exhaustion away you go.

No it’s happened more in later years then it did in earlier years.

Nothing to do with it but I suppose but watching that funeral of that policeman the other day with all the police lined up and they were saluting one after the other, I just cried.

Yes.

No, no we went to live down at Chelsea and my wife’s mother had an old property down there with an old house on the front and an older sort of bungalow on the rear of it. The front house was left permanently and we were given the rear one rent free for as long as we wanted to stay there. Which pretty old

place and everything, so we did it up as best we could and we lived there for four years, and it was whilst there when our son was born while we were there, at Chelsea Bush Nursing Hospital. We live there for thing and then we managed to put a deposit. Her father became sick he had a garage and service station at Pascoe Vale so I was in the business and sold out when I run that and we put a, and managed to rack up a deposit, bought a house out

at Pascoe Vale, we were paying it off. We were there for four years sold it and but in the meantime we had a block of land that we owned round the corner, which back in those days we bought for 300 pound. The same block of land to buy it today would cost you about $300,000 at least or more. And Pascoe Vale for four years and in that four years we were able to scratch

enough and they had cooperative housing societies back in those days and one got into one of those and had the house built around the corner. After a number of years my wife’s grandmother died and we were lucky to get a bit of money and were able to pay it off. And this, then one of the oldest house in Beaumaris was on this block we owned, where these two houses are now. It was too big for

us so we were able to sell that and get into this place. So we’ve been in this one now for just on 21 years. I think this where we’ll see our days out.

No that was before we were married, the Korean War broke out I think, cause that’s when I the Korean was before ’49. ’45 it was about must have been about ’47 was it do you know.

It was before I was married I know because that’s when I rejoined the air force reserves. And I was in that

before we were married.

It didn’t entail, I didn’t have to go to camps or anything I was just on reserve and they use to send me journals every now and again and everything. I thought I would have had to have gone to training camps or anything but no and I was on it for a number or years.

No, it was just a decision I made.

She was a bit stroppo [upset] I think, that was the other lass I was going with, it wasn’t with my wife. But you know it was before I was married. Thought I was being a bit silly and everything, but I’d

always been interested with being in the army since 16 and everything I thought oh well. It was sort of being a bit patriotic I suppose, still am.

No.

No it was just reading, keeping with what was abreast with you know what was

going on and things like that. And I was still on that after we were married, for a few years. And that’s I was still able to get into my uniform at that time. So I was able to wear that, I got the air efficiency award and I was able to go up to Laverton on parade in uniform to get that.

Which was a bit of a moment, that’s when the lad was only a couple of year old.

Air efficiency award was only; it’s for long and efficient service and everything. It’s usually for 12 years continuous

service. Well I had from 1936 till ’45. But overseas service counts double time, but from ’36 to ’45 it was you know time just the same. So just out of the blue they wrote to me from the Air Force saying I had been eligible and been

awarded the efficiency award and I was to attend this parade on such and such a day. So I went. There were about 20 of us altogether. Here was me wearing a sergeants uniform and up the other end of the line was a Group Captain. All the same just Air Efficiency Award. I think in the army called it the Finsey Medal [?] I think in the army.

I don’t think so, no.

I dare say if the same, silly to say it, but if the same thing happened was to happen I’d do the same thing again. I’d always been interested because long before the war they had air shows when we got our very modern Hawker Demon planes that they had here. And they had a big air show put on at the Flemington Race Course and I use to go and watch those

and everything and all the aerobatics with that and my nephew certainly. So I sort of always had a bit of an interest in planes.

No, not really. I was happy to stay where I was.

No, it’s all right I suppose we use to go up to the Gold Coast every year for those until four years ago. Use to drive up there

but that got a bit much so then we were flying up there for about five years, no I use to always be all right, sometimes I use to wonder when the flaps go down and the wheels go down, is it falling to pieces? But no just normal flying.

Back in those days yeah.

For a while I did, I use to belong in the Coburg Gun Club but that was only a 12 gauge shot gun with clay pigeon shooting. I did that for about 3 years and then I just sold it and everything and never seen not a gun since.

Well I belong, well when I first came back I joined the Coburg RSL when I was still in the forces back then and then when we come down this way I belonged to the Beaumaris RSL and I’ve been there for

since, I suppose about 40 years based around there. I play bowls for the Duke of Edinburgh Shield, which is held every year which is an RSL Tournament from all the RSLs all over Victoria, those that can field the bowls side. That’s usually held at quite a

lot of different venues, because only 6 teams can go to one venue, so theirs quite a number of venues.

No when I came back and I was still a serving member and

the lass was going with me, her father was a member there, took me down and joined me up and I only went there a few times. Up here at the Beaumaris RSL well I go there every second Thursday night, there’s quite a few of us go up there for a meal and every Tuesday Night we go down to the Mentone RSL for a meal. So apart from

that, that’s about the involvement with it, and they have an Anzac Service every year, naturally which I go to. But apart from that there’s I don’t go there a lot, I use to go to all their meetings at one time but I don’t now cause I was got very involved in the Bowling Club and spend most of my time there.

Well it’s very good for all ex-service people and everything. I suppose to put it the same, it’s the same as a lot of workers have got a union that stick up and everything for them. The RSL is there for the ex-service person and it’s also there to help the widows, the sick and the children, that’s the main purpose of the RSL

The RSL is there to be a very good citizens, to make good citizenship and to help the fellow man. That’s the main purpose of the RSL, to look after all it’s ex-service personnel and those that are in need. Those that are having difficulties with Veterans Affairs with pension and everything, they’re there to help them or lend a hand for that’s the main attraction of the RSL

I think Anzac Day should always be Anzac Day as it is and Australia Day should always be Australia Day. That’s the Foundation of Australia OK, but I don’t think Anzac Day should ever be changed. Because more and more or less they are trying to open up more and everything but

I remember some years ago, Anzac Day use to be a completely closed day and those people should remember it was the RSL that voted on it to agree to a half day and I think that’s the way it should always stay everything should be closed up until midday and their sporting fixtures that they have, some of the proceeds always go to the RSL welfare and I hope and trust that it always

stays that way.

Yeah.

In the Melbourne one here I was very involved in the early

days of it, 451 Squadron, then we realise there weren’t many of them here and everything, so we tried to form a Desert Air Force Association of which I was right in it from the start I think. But it’s been hard to get, well 3 Squadron to come into it, they’re part of Desert Air Force and 450. Well 3 as I say is a permanent squadron so they’re able

to maintain an Association of their own and have their own thing all the time. I think 450 have had more people here we have a lot of their, tho they’re getting very depleted now. The Desert Air Force Association from having quite a big membership has now gone to about 4 turning up for the...a few more march under the Desert Air Force Banner in the March but

as far as going to a reunion there’s only about 4 of us. All the rest come from all other units and everything so it more of less comes down to just the old 451 fellows, about 4 of us.

No I think the war had been a part of my life important, the most significant was my bringing up (UNCLEAR) getting married and the family. My family mean everything to me. My son and daughter and two granddaughters. I think the biggest

disappoint I had was about 4 years ago when my son’s wife left him and he’s now on his own. They’re the most important things in my life now, just to look after them.

Oh no, I suppose it would be a very good thing

I think for some of these things to come out and that’s it’s recorded and everything. Cause I think from the First World War there hasn’t been a lot recorded and you’ve only been able to get it from some of the old fellows, in the last few years, right in the twilight of their years well I’d say it’s getting that way for me too. I think it’s a very good thing to be recorded so as people in the future will know as what happened

and what’s gone on. And I suppose with you interviewing me today I’ll probably discuss it with a couple of the others mates now just I’m round here at the Beaumaris Bowls Club just round the corner and there’s a big lot of us that are ex-servicemen. As a matter a fact I was out for a meal last night to the Beaumaris RSL and mentioned it to one of my other mates up there and he said yes he was interviewed by you

some time back and he said that I think it’s well worth while. He’s one that saw a lot of service. No so with them, he’ll probably want to discuss this with me now and say how’d you go? and everything and it will with some of the others. I’ve told them about the interview from last week down there and they are all very interested in it.

And no doubt they’ll be quizzing me.

Actually I didn’t think I had any story to tell and everything. There are plenty of other people with a lot more than I’ve experienced and everything than what I’ve had but anything that I’ve been able to tell you or anything, I only been too happy to. Even though every now and again it’s brought a bit of a tear to me but...

Just my make up I suppose. I cry now when they play the last post so... That’s something that moves me every time.