Australians at War Film Archive

Oh Ashfield Western Suburbs, went to school there. Went to New England. I’m President of the Old Boys Bowls Association. That’s why I’ve got this shirt on. We had the bowls competition, started last Sunday.

That was early days.

When, in March 1917 Ashfield, Hawke Street, Ashfield. School there and then I went to Newington then I joined Anderson Seeds and then I went to University in America.

I have a sister.

Mother died with that bubonic plague after the first war.

Three.

Dad, his picture was there a minute ago. He employed a couple of nurses you know, caretakers. Too long ago to remember.

Newington, Newington 27 to 34 and I went to University in America.

No, it was men only. She went to St Gabriel’s at Waverley. Yeah, she’s at Tumut now

and has a son down there.

Anderson Seeds

There’s a book there on it, the whole lot. Anderson Seeds with Seeds to Sow, true to type and always grow, north, south, east or west. Anderson seeds are always the best. And we built a big warehouse down at Summer Hill.

Had 90 odd girls in the office there. It was a big business. Some wonderful stonemasons, a lot of beautiful country properties you know planted out and build dams and fountains, irrigation. Yeah interesting years and then of course the war came.

No, he was 90 odd.

He died down at Tumut 90 odd. Yeah. There’s a picture of the warehouse in that book.

Well they sent me over.

The firm, Hybridising, pollenizing and plant breeding. I was there a couple of years and the war broke out so I joined the air force.

Sacramento. University

of Sacramento.

No the war interfered with it.

I came back here and joined the air force - Martin Place. Got my wings in Wagga. Picture of it there. and then we were sent to England. Stayed the next 6 years over there. Yeah. Then after..

Pilot. We were Fighter Command and then I was trained on singles, Wirraways at Wagga and then we went to twin engines, Mosquitoes hadn’t come out. We went to Wellingtons and Stirlings and then the big Lancasters.

England. All over England.

Had a bit of crew trouble, the rear gunner was accused of breaking a window which he didn’t do and I stood up for him and we got some witnesses, that proved the wing commander flying wrong and they said court martial would you like, is there anything you would like to say. I said yes, I’d like to get removed from this squadron.

That’s how I got the 460 [Squadron] to see Hughie Edwards VC [Victoria Cross] I got there. He said you’ve had a bit of trouble. I said not really, we’re accused of doing something we didn’t do. That’s how I got to good ol’ 460 and spent the rest of the war there.

Lancasters. Had my own, that’s Snifter and then, then some Australian Representative

came around the Squadron and said you’ve been chosen to go back to Australia to fly the Governor General who was the Duke of Gloucester.

Yeah, at the end of the war. So we flew back here and spent the next few years at Canberra . Yep flew all over Australia and the islands. He was a marvellous man. Prince William and Prince Richard

were, I used to fly up to Sydney in a little Proctor, pick up the Doctor, fly back at night when nobody knew. Had a bit of a hairy trip a few times flying down to Canberra in the night time in a little single engine. Got iced up a few times. Yeah.

Well I didn’t go back to Andersons. It was run by a

team of accountants after, during the war. I started my own business at Rose Bay next to the flying boat base. Used to be an old brick yard there and we got the land on the waterfront and the wharf and formed a nursery. Employed a lot of wonderful stonemasons, brickies, carpenters, plumbers, all tradesmen and I have 5 florist

shops. Go to the markets 3 o’clock in the morning get the funerals and things organized then at 6 o’clock I’d go to work.

I told you, landscaping, stone work, all those wonderful tradesmen. Stonemasons, Brickies, Carpenters, Plumbers, Nurserymen. We did a lot of planting you know and building dams and fountains,

waterfalls.

Andersons. Andersons Holdings Propriety Limited. 600 New South Head Road, Rose Bay. Yep. Then the Woollahra Council resumed the land in ’82 or something. So I bought this place over at Beauty Point and finished it

and then I was employed as a Consultant Designer Landscape Consultant. A lot of country work. Fly all over the State advising the old cockies what to do.

No. I did fly a bit when I had a license. I used to fly down the South Coast to go fishing, Moruya but, no I used to fly old Ansett.

Very interesting period the ol’ country people, Cowra and Hunter Valley yeah. Out to, our one of our COs [Commanding Officers] Chad Martin, Wing Commander. He lived out in the west near Grenfell, Coolah. He had a nice property. He used to, he was still flying.

Used to do his, chase the cattle up with the Aircraft. He had a license until recently. But he said now I’ve lost my marbles so I’ve got to give it away. Yeah, he’s not the only one.

Well I had 5 Florist shops and a Nursery. It used

to build a lot of waterfalls and fountains and that sort of thing.

No, the Flying Boat base was at Rose Bay next door and some of my staff went to work for them. Yeah. Rose Bay, yeah.

No.

No just been quietly. I had an adopted daughter who lived down at Beauty Point with me when she got married so I finished with family life and came and bought this Unit. Been here ever since except for visits to Hospital. Yes.

Oh boy, she looks a great day out there today.

Sure can.

Following the milk cart around the streets collecting a wheelbarrow full of manure for the Nursery in Stanmore Road next to Newington. Earn a few more bob. Feed the cats and the dogs yeah, tough times the ol’ depression days.

Oh he was busy but I used to see a lot of him because he was I lived, lived with him... Next to Newington. Stanmore Road at the big plant nursery there. Plants

Oh we were using it in a Nursery. Feed the plants, little pots to big pots. You use the manure

in the soil. It makes the plants grow.

Yes I played cricket and tennis, football, yeah. I enjoyed maths. Had a few, few cranky teachers fortunately. Made us learn a bit

Yes I do because I, as I told you we came from Orange, all the family and I’d seen Uncles there as well as Dad and they joined the Light Horse in the First War and 3 of them went to Gallipoli and the other one

joined the Royal Flying Corps and ol’ shop with camels. I’ve got his AFC [Australian Flying Corps] up there and Uncle Billy, he was in England flying up with camels, marvellous chap.

Yeah. He married Dad’s youngest sister. Auntie Silvia.

No, Auntie Thelma and Auntie Silvia married a Stock and Station Agent from Coonamble.

Not my Dad, Uncle Bill

Oh yeah, he gave me all his old photographs and the old (UNCLEAR) camels and flying and I gave them to Royal Canberra War Memorial [Australian War memorial] . They’re down there.

Oh I don’t know, too long ago but he just generalized about the Service and pushing Aircraft about in the snow.

Oh I suppose it had a fair bit to do with it. Me flying. Yes.

I would think so.

Yeah, oh yeah, one became Harbor Master at Ulladulla. I used to go down there and stay with them on the beach and listen to their stories yeah.

Oh, the old memories gone…

I can’t remember half the things.

No.

He was too busy looking after us.

And go through the Depression.

Yep. We had the big Anderson Seed Shops in Pitt Street and George Street. Keith Street up at the railway and the big warehouse in Kent Street and we built the big one, Summer Hill, Parramatta Road.

Oh everybody was

hard up and you knew it was on. yep he’s a marvellous man. Looked after all the family.

I played cricket at Petersham. I played tennis at the White City, I played Golf at the NSW [New South Wales] Golf Club at La Perouse. I played squash 3 nights a week to keep fit so I was pretty active and then in winter time I used to go skiing if I could afford it and get away.

Chalet, Charlotte Pass

Sydney Ski Club. I was Captain of Sydney Ski Club.

Oh we built our own huts. They built the old Chalet of course and Hotel Kosciusko was there, yeah they were good. Used to go up, used to go up in the snow cat caterpillar. Boy that only seems like yesterday. There’s some ski’s in that corner. I think I

gave them to someone. There’s a lot of albums of old skiing around.

No, a good tennis player.

Well I was Ice Skating at the Glaciera at the Railway. I used to play a bit of Ice Hockey and one of the skaters said why don’t you come down skiing. Anyway

tough times you know. Anyway he offered to drive us down. I said righto, give it a go and anyway I let them go on a downhill race at the main range and won it and so I got stuck into it.

Used hire them but then I bought a pair. Yep, save up.

Didn’t spend much. Didn’t have time to drink and smoke, was too busy.

Yep well every day and night. Weekends of course was the tennis and golf later on. Night time squash.

It’s an old Marcus Clarke. A big firm, there’s the old Funeral station there, do you know that one?

Opposite there in George Street, the Glaciarium and they, you go down a tunnel and all the big old Glaciarium and I think it’s a

I don’t know whether it’s still there. It might be. I haven’t been in there for a long time. Yeah old Glaccy

Oh yeah. It had speed skating, race around the track and oh yeah, waltzing. I didn’t do the waltzing I used to go in speed skating a bit, yeah.

Oh well it was on all year around but I didn’t I wasn’t interested all the year. When you could. You had a bit of work to do.

Played squash at Langwidges in George Street and at Rushcutters Bay, we formed our own Squash Club and played at, oh what’s his name,

he had the squash courts at oh fancy not remembering his name. Not Tony Jemmis. Anyway used to play all the tennis players to keep fit. Used to go and play squash then we, we formed a team of the tennis players from the Davis Cup, John Bromwich, Adrien Quist, Harry Hopkin and we won the A Grade Squash Inter-house

tournament yeah.

Mmm

Oh they were, oh yeah then we had a table tennis team. We won that too, John Bromwich and Quisty and Harry Hopkin were good table tennis players because they were away in the Davis Cup you know and they used to play on the ships. Yeah.

We gave an exhibition of table tennis on the Monterey on the way to America. Old John Bromwich and I.

No.

We were going over, they were going on the Davis Cup team to play Davis Cup. I wasn’t in the Davis Cup team. I was going over to go to the University course and

they were on the same ship which I think Dad helped organized so I’d have a bit of company you know.

Didn’t have time. Couldn’t afford it.

Well the Association looked after them. You get picked to play for Australia the Association

covers your expenses. Old Jack Crawford, Glenn McGrath, Harry Hopman, John Bromwich, Adrien Quist. Oh there were some wonderful blokes. Colin Long from Melbourne and a chap from South Australia. They won Wimbledon. He died. Anyway

had a great team. Nancy Wing, Thelma Long, Thelma Coin, Dot Stevenson, yeah had the ladies team with us. Yeah, busy days.

Yep.

Oh yes.

Monterey, the Mariposa, the Niagara, big Metson Steam Ship line. Yes. I met all the Metson crowd over there. We played tennis in Los Angeles. As a matter of fact I introduced Mickey Rooney to Ava Gardner during a

tennis match over there. We were playing Jimmy Stewart was it, that big actor. Anyway Jimmy, we’d been playing tennis, we came in and sat down and have some afternoon tea and this gorgeous bird was up on a stage singing and Mickey Rooney said cor, I’d like to meet her so I went and got her. Introduced them and he married her.

They were playing tennis with us at the Ambassadors Hotel. They were staying there and they, we could play a bit. They weren’t that skilled and they joined us and old Mickey said you know look at that good sort, I’d like to meet her so I said to her you’re being admired down here on the dance floor and so I said come down and meet him. So she did.

She came down off the stage, yeah.

Oh yeah, she came out here to Melbourne and made a film after that. Yeah, Ava Gardner.

Well sports a great door opener you know, mix with people and

one introduce you to another. Great experience and it was good for business, meeting people.

Oh yeah. Well actually I was closely associated with Bodger Seeds, they were like Yates and Andersons here and I lived with them

over there when I wasn’t at University. Bodgers and they had a big, big seed company. Yeah they used to send us bulk seed which we put into packets out here. Yeah.

No. I went to the Bodgers

and then out to the University, made arrangements to enlist. Then I worked with Bodgers for awhile. Went around landscaping and they didn’t do much landscaping but I went to various companies that did. Then I enrolled at the University and I was there full time until the war arrived.

Sacramento.

Oh a big town. It was the capital of California.

Yep.

Oh had a different accent but mostly the same, people are only as you treat them.

Yep, oh sure. Yeah, had a wonderful couple of years over there.

Didn’t have time to be homesick.

I played American Football. It was like a drop kick. I was sort after a bit

but I didn’t have time to play much, mostly study but then the war stopped that and back home.

Well we knew is was getting close, you know. It was pretty serious. The Americans weren’t in it at that stage. Anyway came back here and joined up.

A few of my old mates and we got a picture somewhere of marching down Martin Place, the 3 of us joining up and we went to went out of Victoria. Summers, next to Flinders Naval Base and digging trenches for a couple of months.

Yeah.

Oh about 3 months. Had to get on a ship.

No

Well they were interested but we didn’t talk to them much about it. Came back here and went and got our wings and then off to England.

Yes. Sure.

Oh well. I had, Uncle’s did their bit in the First War and I thought it was my turn to do a bit in this one. That was in 1939 and I thought I better get into it.

No. I used to go to the Services you know because of the Uncles.

Hmm

British Empire yeah.

Oh no, the RAAF, the Royal Australian Air Force

and the RAF [Royal Air Force] were closely associated and then they supplied us with the planes and everything you know.

Yep we had a King and Queen and they didn’t. They had a President. Yeah. President

Eisenhower. [US wartime presidents were Roosevelt and Truman. Eisenhower became president in 1953]

Well Wally Hogg, Hogg Brothers Lime and Cement Merchants Sussex Street. He was one of our squash mates and Bill Easton had the big Service Stations in town under cover parking.

Anyway, I rang him up and said joining up, meet you at Martin Place so we did. I forget what happened. I think they knocked Bill Easton back. Wally Hogg and I both joined the air force. Went to, trained on Fighters. Got our wings in Wagga

Yeah, Woolloomooloo and we marched us down to Woolloomooloo and then marched up to Central Railway, got the train to Melbourne.

(Shakes head)

I’m blowed if I, I don’t think so..

No. Anyway

went out to Summers digging trenches, then off to Flying School which was a bit of a thrill.

Well (UNCLEAR) and Quinty. Benalla first Wagga. Benalla Elementary Flying School. Tiger Moths and Wacketts then to Wagga to advanced Flying School.

Yeah.

Nothing else

Oh no you had to fly and show the Instructors that you could fly.

Yep.

Hmm

I remember the old John Baraclough, there’s a book on him there. He was a famous speedway Baraclough Opticians in George Street and he was a Bathurst racing car driver and he said you’re nearly ready to go solo. See that haystack down there, I want you to dive on it and shoot it up, pretend you’re shooting it up. If you hit it you’re scrubbed.

Anyway I shot, blew the top of it with the wind you know and he said oh your’ pretty safe. So away we went.

Wacketts, then Wirraways.

Single engine, like an American Harvard and they built them out here. Wacketts yeah and then Wirraways.

Yeah.

Oh got a picture of them here somewhere. Oh. Well Spitfires and Hurricanes were in line motors you know, Rolls Royce motors. These were radial motors and was, weren’t as fast as the in lines but wing loading you know they were safe

good to learn to fly on and get the rudiments, yeah. Flying eh.

Wood and metal, metal frames, canvas cover.

Depends how good you were. A lot of people,

lot of people killed on ‘em learning.

Yeah.

Well I remember two blokes got killed. They hit on a cross runway. One took off this way and one took off that way and they hit, a collision and the others night flying was a bit tricky.

I had a (UNCLEAR) myself one night I think we were out of petrol but anyway.

Yes. We were up in the flight office.

Well they both took off, bang, collision poor buggers.

Oh yeah

a bit of fire bang. Two engines hit, burst. That wasn’t very pleasant.

Oh yeah they had fire trucks, ambulances there, but too late for that poor blokes. Cleaned up the mess. Clear up the runway. On with the flying.

Oh not very often fortunately. Safety first precautions were very good. They usually have somebody with a flag or a red light you know or a green light, OK to take off or a red light, don’t. All sorts of rules.

Well not really if the wind is steady, not a cross wind, you land here to the wind. It’s quite a thrill. Landing and put them down. Grease them on as we used to say. Grease them on. My crew in the Lanc [Lancaster] used to when we’d been flying all night come back and do a good landing and they would all cheer. Good on you Skip. Bumped one in and they’d say

Gawd you’re getting old

Yeah, oh yeah.

Too long ago now mate. Yeah.

No we went. When we left Wagga we came up to Bradfield and then waited for a ship and then off we went. They don’t muck about, they wanted you on a train ready. Go baby go.

No, there were lots of others,

other schools apart from that. There was Archerfield up in Queensland. They come from everywhere. New Zealand too, yeah.

Yes.

Sergeants and Officers separate mess.

Pilot Officer.

I was commissioned. There’s a picture, oh it’s behind there. The Wing Commander giving me the wings. I got commissioned in Wagga and straight off course I was fortunate. Get a few extra bob.

Yeah, oh sure, yeah. End of the training, end of the action.

Oh I don’t know about everybody. A lot of them wanted to be Gunners, Navigators, Wireless Operators. Some had bad eyesight.

Just waited for embarkation depot and then to England.

Monterey went to America. Across America. They weren’t in the war still and then to Halifax, Nova Scotia. This was in a sealed train. I remember we got out some place and we were going to be court martialled because we got out of this sealed train and try and get a beer.

Anyway got to Halifax and then there’s Mr Pat Crennin, he said, he was the editor of a big whisky company here and we were going to England on the Louis Pasteur French ship and he said you’re going to be court martialled for not obeying orders or something.

We ran into a formation of German Submarines, 20 of them in a V. We sailed right into the V. It was a very fast ship the Louis Pasteur. Anyway apparently they picked it up on the radar and the Skipper turned the ship around flat out.

You know it went over on its side. A lot of them were having lunch. Plates went everywhere. I raced up onto the deck and these torpedoes went each side of us missed us. Oh God they were close. Anyway missed us, instead of going into Southampton, which we were aiming for. Went down south towards the Bay of Biscay and right up around the north of Ireland into Liverpool,

landed at Liverpool.

Well they knew we were there.

No, no they, had a periscope, you know. They had all sorts of methods of judging

your speed and how far in front they had to fire the torpedo to get you.

No, but the Captain told us on the ship. That we flew in these torpedoes came from everywhere and missed. It was a big crowd. 3000 on the ship. Made a good catch if they’d have got it. All fully trained New Zealanders and Australians.

No.

Well the Atlantic’s a big Ocean, I don’t think we had the Marange in those days, yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. I went to Dunkirk. Yeah. I got a, don’t know whether it’s any good to you now...

It’s a form from the French Government they sent us.

Oh England was being bombed, they had bombing everyday and every night. Coventry and Birmingham one hell of a mess. Yeah, they’d been, London of course had been bombed, big fires. St Paul Cathedral. Oh yeah they’d been through a fair bit.

We were sent down to Bournemouth south of England and we were there for quite a while until we got posted to conversion you know. We had to learn to fly multies [multiple engines] from singles you see, yeah.

Bournemouth was a big staging base. People from all countries went there. Mostly air force. Marched around the town every day to keep fit.

Well Fighters used to come over, you know the German Fighters shoot the place up. Keep the interest going, yeah.

Doesn’t seem long ago. Oh Bournemouth. I’ve got a book somewhere.

Yes we used to get a few days off every now and then. Go up and have a bit, play the locals darts up and down the Thames embankment.

Yeah well we went to Australia House. That was in, top of the Strand. St Paul’s was down there. I remember being in a London cab and those buzz bombs had just started automatic flying bombs you know. I said to the driver there’s a buzz bomb coming straight for you

turn around the corner quick. Oh they won’t hit you. Anyway I grabbed the wheel and he went around the corner and it landed right where we were. Blew hell out of the street. If we hadn’t gone around there we’d have gone. So we were lucky.

It sounds like a motorbike.

Oh yeah. Sounds like a motorbike.

Yeah, they did some damage the old buzz bombs.

Oh probably most interesting

apart from being over the target, I remember Hughie Edwards said to me we’ve got a couple of Anti-Aircraft experts have arrived. They want to see what the German Air Defences are like and I said don’t look at me. You’re training them and we’ll go to Berlin. I said God are they bloody well mad. Anyway they stood up the front. Got near 200 mile out of Berlin,

it’s like Luna Park you know. They looked, that’s the target. God and they sat on the floor and we got back and Hughie said to them what do you think of the German Air Defences. Didn’t see a bloody thing we sat on the floor. It was too frightening. Yeah. Yeah must be bloody well mad they said. I saw a lot of those blokes. Major, hell of a nice fellow. Never flown before,

been in Africa through the African campaign at Montgomery, yeah, must be bloody well mad.

Well big heavy things full throttle, step one. Had to get used to it, you know.

Oh no, the theory of flight is the same.

No, that was out here. We got our wings on Wirraways?

Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters. Halifaxes were there too but mostly Wellingtons, Stirlings big four-engine Stirling. It was made

by Short Brothers who made the flying boats. All hand made. Beautiful job. Tons of power. Had to cut 7 foot off each wing so you could get them into the hangars. They’re too big. They carry some weight, gee.

Oh yeah, fly but couldn’t get the height. Anyway

they were a good aircraft.

Oh no you had to do a course on them, pass the Instructor. Get his OK.

No, oh where was that. No I can’t remember. There was that many of them. I remember flying Oxfords, they were twin engines then Wellingtons, then we were in Stratashall over in East Coast near the wash

onto Stirlings. That was the one like the Flying Boat and then we got moved to, oh where we had the row with the broken window with my rear gunner, then we got moved to Binbrook, the Lancs. Hughie Edwards, Chad Martin.

We’d been into Cambridge playing billiards and we had to get back to the Aerodrome so I got this local cabbie who was with us to drive us back and when we got back to the Aerodrome this broken window was, you could see there was a great hole in it at the entrance and the Wing Commander came out

and didn’t like Australians and he grabbed by rear gunner Jimmy Gant who had a George Medal and climbed up onto a gas tank in London put out a fire on top of the gas tank because his house was nearby, his home. That’s what he got a George Medal for. Ended up with a DFM [Distinguished Flying Medal] too, good old Jimmy. Anyway this Wing Co and the S.P’s arrived. As we got out of the cab

they grabbed Jimmy, you’ve broken the window again. You’re in more trouble. I said no he didn’t, he just got out of that cab. Fortunately I got the cabs number as he drove off and I got hold of the cab later when we were court martialled by the bumptious Wing Commander. Anyway it was summing up the cabbie driver saved us. He swore that we were in the cab.

The window was already broken and the Air Commodore in Charge of the Court Martial. Have you any wishes. I said yes to be moved from this Station. That’s how I got the Lancasters 460.

Against what?

Well it’s hard to tell how they think but I think

it’s a window was broken. The Wing Commander was on duty and I think he grabbed the first one he could think of. It wasn’t me. It was my rear gunner.

No, we were moved. We were gone the next day. Oh it was an internal job. I believe there was a bit of a stoush on, people throwing things around. Nothing to do with me. Kept out of it.

Confined to Barracks.

Oh it was only about 3 days.

Yeah mistaken identity but I remember the Wing Commander saying you Colonials,

you’re responsible. It got my back up a bit.

No, they were wonderful people. Yeah I got to see it all. I went back again in ’82 my pictures I showed you of my daughter drove all around England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales. Saw

my old crew. Ones that were still around. Yeah, oh no they’re a good crowd. Yeah.

Yes I do, yep. Everybody had a job to do.

Yeah, as from then.

Yes

Well, you see Hughie Edwards I showed you that picture, he was Base Commander. English Air Commodore Ray he was the Area Commander and Chad Martin was the Squadron Commander

but all Australian Ground Crew, Australian Air Crew and we used to have a few odd parties when you get bad weather and it would be like this and then bad weather would come up, six foot of snow. No flying. So that was a good excuse to have a party. Used to play up in the mess. I remember one night

the blokes had been playing up because up for scrub and it was cold as Charity there was no wood. Had nothing for the fires you know so one of the wags cut the legs off a piano and put it, made the fire out of it and dragged the piano down the hill on a big sheet outside Hughie Edwards living quarters and sang Christmas Carols

in the snow. Hughie in his pyjamas came out and sang with them and his wife came out and said are you mad, get in, you’ll get a death of cold. Get to bed. So Hughie took off and he said you’d better get that piano back in the mess and was that a job, back up this hill, the stumps of the legs, you know digging into the snow. Anyway I got it back in at 8 o’clock in the morning, put it on 4 boxes and set it up

in the mess and the last of the fires went out and I think they’d have burnt the piano only they got onto somebody and they dropped some bags of wood, you know in the snow, enough to, God it was cold. 10 degrees below. Yeah. Never forget that. Get that piano back in the mess.

No. Oh no there was been excuses, bad weather, no wood. Yeah.

No. They had the rules, same rules.

Do what you are told.

Yeah he had kids there, his wife. There’s a picture there of him with the little kids. Yeah wonderful bloke old Hughie. He became Governor of Western Australia after the war and then he lived at Darling Point.

His wife died there. Second wife. I used to go and see him every week and at Double Bay. We used to go to the Double Bay Bowling Club, have a beer and a chat about old times. Great man.

Well he was, had such a wonderful record. Everybody respected

him and you did what he said. Old Hughie, yeah. Great chap.

Yeah, Oh yeah, he’d been to Germany in a Blenheim, not a Lancaster, a Blenheim, daylight bombing raid. They’d failed

several times. Go over there and he went over, knocked hell out of the place. Yeah good ol’ Hughie. He had one leg. Had a leg broken early in the war. Yeah. Great old bloke. Fearless.

Yeah well brings back a few memories. My dear old Mother, she died with that Bubonic Plague. It came back with the troops after the First War. I was only 3 and I run around I remember all the people there. We had a billiard table, a nice tennis court, a picture of

Uncle Frank and my sister and I sitting on the side of the court sitting outside our Billiard Room and Grandfather they all came from Orange. He had a great mate called Timothy O’Dwyer who used to take me up to see the railway trains go through Ashfield, Summer Hill. And I used to walk up with him and my delight to see the trains. And they

used to say there’s big Tim taking little Tim for a walk again and my mother used to rouse, his name’s not Tim, Timothy O’Dwyer, it’s Robert. Anyway Tim stuck.

Bloody nuisance. I don’t know, Ando.

Ando. Skip, yeah skip.

Yeah, Bomb Aimer was a Canadian and Engineer was an Englishman. He’d never flown before and we took him on Berlin, Eddie, and then I had a marvellous Navigator,

Ernie Noble, he’s still alive. Newcastle, I’m told and Glenny Grampson was the Engineer and then Wireless Op an Englishman. American millionaire, Mid Upper Gunner, Tommy Hutch. He died, well he got killed and rear gunner Jimmy Gant. Marvellous lot of blokes.

They all topped their courses in training and I happened to get hold of their files while we were forming up crews so I just took the top page off the top of each file, the blokes that had topped their courses. So that’s how I got a skilled lot of blokes. Anyway.

Yeah well Hutchy didn’t because he got killed on

the eleventh tour and he flew with another bloke and they pranged but the Bomb Aimer, Engineer Wireless Op, Mid Upper he was killed. rear gunner, Navigator they all lived, yeah. I kept in touch with a lot of them. Ernie Noble is the only one I’m really in touch with now because he’s up in Newcastle

retired. Nice bloke.

S was S, Sugar but Brian Prenton the Editor of the Daily Telegraph in Australia came over to see what things were like in Europe during the war and Hughie Ed was asking me to fly him around the various Australian Squadrons and show him.

And I got a new aircraft to do this and it was a good one. I test flew a lot of them. Anyway it was S, it’s marking category S. Brian Prenton said you haven’t got a name so he used to, had a magazine called Man here in Australia and Larn I think was

the name of his cartoonist and when he got back to Australia he got Larn to draw up some S’s and one that looked good was one named after the Man magazine Snifter, the dog. They sent this picture over with the swastika and Snifter pissing on, well piddling on Berlin so we painted it on the side of the Aircraft and that go, and all over Europe that aircraft.

Yeah. A fellow got shot down in it. Fellow named Doug. Doug Arrowsmith I think from where, Western Australia, he got killed in it ’45 I think or ’46. poor old Lanc she’s gone.

Well they weren’t made for comfort, not like the American Flying Fortresses they had cigarette ashtrays and 2 pilots and plenty of room. In a Lanc you had to climb in, crawl up the main fuselage, just room to get over the main spa where the wing goes through

and there was room for one in the cockpit just and then the bomb aimer used to come up so they put a ladder in them coming up from the ground after that and they, the bomb aimer used to come up that way, the Wireless Op, the Mid Upper we all came in the back gateway carrying parachutes and all the gear. It wasn’t easy

but once you got moving the Lanc was a lowly aircraft, Avro Lancaster, four Rolls Royce motors, plenty of power yep. They used to swing a bit on take off but you counteracted that with rudder.

Well we used to go out to dispersal, get our positions, hang up our parachutes and what not. Then it was my job to run the motors up, check the switches you know with the Engineer power loss and make sure that everything was right. Check your fuel load. All the motors were getting their share. And then, then you’d taxi out to take off

to what we called the Nappy Wagon it was a, a Red and a White light with the bloke in charge of take off so to stop collisions. And then give her full bore when you got the green light. They had a tremendous load. They carry their own weight in petrol and bombs. And used to, we had trimming wheel

to wind that back slowly. Get the tail down and let ‘em fly off. As long as you didn’t lose any power you were right. Yeah, good old Lanc.

Well a lot of them would hit the deck. Depends on how much flying speed you had. You could get them up sometimes.

I know a lot of them hit trees into the snow. Lose a motor on take off. Not the best.

No. We had electric plugs and long flying boots like these slipper but they had you’d plug ‘em in, electric current otherwise your feet would freeze.

Oh sure

You just call them up by their positions, Bomb Aimer, rear gunner, check that their instruments and everything are working

OK Skip. Ready for take off. Yeah. Boy oh boy.

Not really because your petrol disappears, as your petrol goes, your aircraft gets lighter. As your petrol consumption uses up your fuel. Once you drop your bombs over Berlin, Hamburg wherever you are you can feel the aircraft jump almost you know and the speed. I always used to fly high to

come home. Usually told what height to fly because of collisions and things but if the Fighters are around and the searchlights are busy I used to climb into the dark part of the sky. Come back high and fast. Used to get back first. Come back high. But you’ve got to watch out for the Fighters, the lone Fighter.

We didn’t have night

Fighters. We used to have an odd one but we didn’t have the range.

Well search lights, look like looking against the ground there. They can go above you and you’re silhouetted against the searchlights, oh they can see you as bright as day.

No.

Wetting their pants. No, we used to..

we had a thing called Village, Village Inn. Automatic gun laying turret. They used to pick up the enemy Fighter on radar and the Gunners and the Wireless Op used to work together.

Oh they had, same as the bombing. They picked, picked the enemy Fighter up on the radar screen on a beam.

What are you trying out all my pens.

Well they had a turret with guns flying backwards, the rear gunner

and picture of them there in that book and they, it’s over there, turret used to rotate up and down and then the Mid Upper Gunner, he only had two guns and then the Bomb Aimer out the front had two guns and they used to, depends whether the

enemy fighter attacked, what, what angle it comes on. Who had to fire and the German Fighters weren’t mugs. They’d come at you head on where there was no firepower to hit ‘em.

Oh yeah.

Well if they missed it was good.

You see their tracers. You see you know the tracers from the Guns.

Not really, there was that many of them. Yeah. Oh yeah, we were attacked a few times, the ol’ German Fighters

Ooh yeah, a lot shot down.

We got a few motors knocked out. Got hit by our own bombs a couple of times.

Oh they had a plate behind the Pilot. Like a safety seat in a car you know in case you got a shell from behind and

they weren’t well armoured no.

Oh my Mid Upper was killed but I wasn’t flying that aircraft. It was another crew. Oh no they got a few nicks, I got a couple of nicks. Broken shoulder, bullets through the legs but no we were pretty right.

Yeah.

That arm

Right handed throttle. It was fortunate it was the left arm.

Yep after we left the target we got, the aircraft gets hit with shrapnel,

flying fragments of metal you know. That’s what did the damage.

Good landing Skip. Greased her on. Oh you could fly them pretty right.

I didn’t say anything at that stage, no. They had an airport bus there that picks up the crew,

maps and things.

Well depends whether the Germans were making their things we had Ruhr, a big industrial area. Rhine and Ruhr and then Berlin of course, Bremen, Munich

and the big one, the big one we lost a lot of aircraft down the south. I can’t think of the name of it. I’d have to get the log book out. Lost a lot of aircraft on this one. Anyway there were some big targets, submarine bases in the Baltic.

Anywhere we found out they were making munitions, building airplanes. We’d be sent to knock the factories over

No, before we left. Before we go out in the aircraft. Wing Commander flying or somebody was in charge to tell you what

the air defences were like, what to expect what the target was like and what our various jobs were. And usually the C.O. or Hughie Edwards who’d been there before would try and tell you all about it. Seems a long time ago.

Well if you didn’t hit the target that you were supposed to you had to go again the next day. If the weather was bad you’d have to be scrubbed. We used to get a few days leave every six weeks to go down to London to play the locals, darts or something. But got a bit of a break from flying. Some blokes had

fatigue and they’d be sent off a bit more often.

LMF, a lot of them were grounded.

Well people used to just get the frights you know because they’d see aircraft or their mate shot down and couldn’t fly, they wouldn’t. They send them home and they left.

But we had a rumour going around England a lot of blokes were juicing their load of bombs and particularly the flares to light up the target dropping them in the North Sea so they wouldn’t have to go and they’d fly back to England and they were christened LMF. They used to have aircraft tailing them at one stage when it got bad.

When the Battle of Berlin was on and the old morale was down a bit. Yeah. LMF.

Yeah, oh I struck a couple of them. Some people got through without much trouble. Others got through

with all sorts of actions and prangs and sickness and then their families would write them and say their Mum’s crook or something and blokes would panic. Yeah.

Well night time or day time, night time you’ve got to watch out for collisions pretty carefully and a lot depends on the weather too, whether it’s windy or snowing

and you just set course, the first turning point and keep climbing until you reach your bombing height and then you’re usually routed in around other towns, what we call Spoof Raids. They think you’re going to the Ruhr and you change course and you go up north, yeah, depends on the

instructions.

Oh yeah, except you get a, you get instructions from Base sometimes or change of weather or something might happen but we didn’t speak.

Oh depends how far it was.

If it was right across Europe, over near Russia it would take hours and hours and hours but if it’s a short target, around about the Ruhr, German Industrial Areas it was only a short trip. Go home in 5 or 6 hours. The other ones some of them you’d be out all night, take off at dusk and land at dawn.

Well the main thing was to stay cool, calm and collected and set the example to the rest of the crew, don’t panic in case of an emergency, yeah.

No, no,

not allowed. Used to tell them to keep quiet.

Well exhausts. We weren’t in formation, we were just on a course at a height but they can see exhausts. Red hot flames you know from the exhausts, the motors get too close and you can feel it, turbulence.

Where the Gunners, Front Gunner, Bomb Aimer and the Mid Upper and the rear gunner were warned all the time, look out for collisions other aircraft.

Oh there were a lot of aircraft a thousand Bombers, thousand bomber raids, pretty tight and if it was day time you’d get a fright. At night time you don’t see it so much.

Oh yeah, Nuremberg, yeah did a few of those.

Dresden, no, don’t think so. Did so many I can’t remember. Dresden. What makes you say Dresden?

Oh yes, that was after the war, after we left.

Yeah, that was in peace, peace times. [Actually the infamous bombing of Dresden occurred during the war, on 13-15 February 1945]

Well depends what the target was. If they wanted to burn it they’d be incendiaries, cases of fire bombs but if it was a big city they usually carry a 4000 pound bomb which would blow the roofs off and then the incendiaries would come down after and set fire to it.

Sometimes we had, if it was an Aircraft factory or something and they’d load us up with high explosives, scatter bombs you know, blow the places flat.

It was marked pathfinders, once they perfected the technique they’d drop flares

and then the Master Bomber would call out bomb the yellow flares, bomb the green flares or bomb the blue flares

He was, he was down below marking the target. He dropped the flares and then you’d bomb on them.

Yeah, can’t fly formation at night very well.

Yeah, we got hit with bombs from up above, jammed the throttles. Flew back with three engines and the other one jammed.

Well you’re flying along and just BANG you know, bloody, fortunately it was only a fairly small bomb but it went straight through the wing.

Didn’t catch fire, lucky.

Didn’t make any difference, oh a bit rougher.

Well they didn’t know

Ooh yeah, like Luna Park, bright sparks everywhere,

yeah, oh yes if they knew that the ground anti aircraft Artillery blokes knew where you were going and the course you were flying they’d set a pattern which you’ve got to fly through. It’s like landing on cloud, you know it was that thick.

You’re not allowed to turn away. You’ve got to go through it, you’ve got to hit the target.

You’re not telling yourself anything. You’re doing what you are told to do.

You press on regardless, yeah

No, too dangerous turning around.

All the aircraft coming behind you, collisions.

Yeah, plenty of times.

Like daylight.

Get out of the beam. Corkscrew to try and get out of the beam. Dive out of it because it’s hard to see, bright, very bright

light.

No good being scared. You had to think and act, yep.

Sure, they’re up above you and they can see you. You’ve got to get out of those searchlights quick as you can. Trouble is when you’re flying over a target

and it’s alight, and been hit, burning, Fighters can see you silhouetted against the flames so you got to get through the target and out as soon as possible. Yep, I used to climb into the dark part of the sky, come back high.

Well the aircraft becomes so much lighter, so much easier to handle because all that big weights gone, petrol, half the petrol’s gone, enough get you home. All the bomb loads gone. The aircraft’s light and manoeuvrable. Yeah, it’s a good feeling when you’re, when you’re empty as long as you’ve got enough petrol left to get home.

Oh, we used to have a can, spent a penny. You had to organize yourself so that you only spent a penny.

Yep. Oh yes, a lot of them were taught first aid and someone was bleeding and bleeding badly. Excuse me.

Oh very uninteresting. You’d take off and climb to your bombing height and a certain target, change course

to confuse the enemy. When you reach your target you bomb it and dodge the Fighters and head for home. Yeah and hope that the snow hasn’t set in. Sometimes while you were out all night and it would snow and you’d get 5 or 6 feet of snow on your aerodrome. You get back and you can’t land. You got to slide them in with the wheels up. Or be diverted somewhere else.

Yeah

oh yeah.

Yes

Oh just like an ordinary landing only you haven’t got any wheels, you just slide along. It would muck up your propellers, you hit the ground you know or the snow, damage your propellers, knock the aircraft about.

Well they used to provide emergency landing strips for bad weather and they lit flares along the side of the safety or the safest place to land but we used to call it Fido.

I’m trying to think.

Fido means flares and oil burners you know, every hundred feet or so. Then you’d land between the flares and if there, you got to be careful you don’t land on top of another one, you land on the other side. Yeah.

Well our own Air and Home Base was covered in snow, you can’t land in the snow because all your lights and aerodrome lights were all covered, you can’t see. But these emergency landing bases

were the Fido strips, the flames burning. They were built so you could see and land with safety, with reasonable safety. Sometimes they’d divert you way up the north of Scotland or Wales. Depends if how far the bad weather reached. You’d come in across the North Sea and blanket England.

Sometimes they were sent to Africa. If you were over Germany, they’d send a message, diversion, cross the Mediterranean into North Africa. I didn’t do any of those.

No. Just a normal, get to a lower speed

as you can, put your nose up and tail down and your power and you’d come in, lower flying speed as you can when you hit the ground. A bit of a relief when you pulled up.

You can’t in fog or snow. Aircraft would turn over and you could only put your wheels down on good going.

Well the closest member of the crew

would go and give ‘em first aid. Oh God.

Well we’ve got a bit of a medical kit hanging on the wall of the cabin and

oxygen and dressings and that sort of stuff. They’re taught a bit of first aid, tourniquet to stop the blood flow you know and on the ground emergency. Of course if they’re badly hurt you’d head for home.

Well sometimes you’d have to because you’d have no

crew.

No it didn’t happen to me.

Oh many, many.

Well you can’t see in the dark what aircraft it is. Now and then you could recognize one from the searchlights.

Generally speaking you know over there, bang, down they go. You couldn’t tell who, which one they were.

Oh yeah, sure.

Well your, your Engineer

hands you the parachute. You clip it on and dive out.

We’ve got a big door, trapdoor in the floor.

Yep. You got to keep the aircraft straight and level while they get out or you’d put the automatic pilot in and get out if it was an emergency,

if you were on fire.

No, oh odd flame in the motors but we had extinguishers.

Three, it was getting a bit risky on two, not enough power.

If you were high enough you’d glide you know, power assisted glide, keep the speed up it wasn’t so bad.

We were taken by, met when you land and you taxi in to your dispersal where you park your aircraft. The ground crew take over

and we were taken into interrogation to see the Intelligence Officer, report on the raid, successful or not. Everybody did that and then they give you a cup of tea or a rum or something.

Yeah, where’s so and so, where’s so and so, where’s so and so. Oh yes you’d usually sum it up.

Whether there was message had been diverted somewhere else or crash-landed somewhere.

Missing. Missing in action. MIA. That happened many a time, if they were shot down, killed, no news.

Hoped they’d get back or landed somewhere else. We’d grab a quick snack they’d give you and go to bed.

Well the Intelligence Officer usually

or the Welfare Officers usually sort them out. Advise their next of kin, kin and send them their belongings.

Oh helped if you could. It wasn’t our job. We helped in any way that we could if we knew where they lived,

and knew family we’d write, send a letter. But we had Welfare Officers who used to do that on the Squadron.

Lucky crew, no, had a skilled crew, highly skilled. I don’t know about lucky. I suppose we were lucky to get through it. Yep, good ol’ Snifter.

He was killed with another crew. They were one short and I was away somewhere. We were doing automatic gun laying turrets called Village Inn and he, he went off with this Canadian Pilot. Anyway they didn’t come back.

Poor ol’ Tommy Hutchinson, Millionaire, Cosmetic King from Central America. Yeah, had a nice home in Pinna in Middlesex in England.

Well he went on our eleventh trip so he’d been there for a year on and off. We’d been doing a

specialized training course, this Village Inn that he’d been working on. Anyway he went.

Well they just flew straight into the ground I heard. The Canadian Pilot had a blackout or something. They called out, pull out, pull up, pull up. They heard them calling out to him and he flew straight into the deck.

Might have been hit. I don’t know.

I didn’t know them. Only cousin of his in, lived in Pinna in London. I saw them because I used to stay there.

There was nothing I could tell them. Just said sorry Tommy’s gone,

yeah.

Of course, oh yeah a great bloke ol’ Tommo. We used to all go down to his home in Pinna, a suburb of London, go to the local, have a bit of a talk to all the local friends who were mates of his. Stay the night,

a bit of a break from flying. Yeah.

Oh yeah I used to but if you’d seen what they did to England

and Manchester and Coventry, you know well it would ease the pain a bit because they made a hell of a mess of England and their big raids. London, they burnt half of London. St Paul’s Cathedral and so it was getting square.

Well it was survival of the fittest

wasn’t it. If we didn’t get them, they’d get us.

You bomb the factory workers. That was the big idea. Put the factory workers out of business that made airplanes and engines and ships, yep.

We didn’t select the targets, the experts did.

Oh if you’d travelled, we might have known a bit but we were shown pictures on, on briefing before we took off, what we had to look for.

Well as I told you they made such a mess of England and Cambridge and Birmingham, Canterbury and fire in London, so we were getting square weren’t we?

Oh yeah, I’d seen it all.

No. No, we knew, we knew we had to win the war.

Well different numbers. They had 2 Mid Upper and a rear gunner, Wireless Operator, Navigator, Engineer, Bomb Aimer and a Pilot.

Six or seven..

Well the Bomb Aimer is up the front and looks out the nose and then, you ought to have a picture of the Lancaster somewhere and then there’s the Pilot, sits up above him. Engineer beside watching the instruments

and the oil pressure, petrol consumption and then the Navigator behind him down below in his own cabin, the Wireless Op and then there’s the Mid Upper Gunner and the rear gunner so they, from nose to tail.

No, no she was a pretty tight fit. Any room was taken up with petrol and bombs.

Well you’ve got all your instrument panels in front, speed indicator, height indicator, your throttles

controlling your 4 motors, 2 on each wing You got your pedals for your feet and your control column and a rear vision mirror. That’s about it.

No, we had the Engineer, they gave us an Engineer after

so many trips. He used to stand or sit beside you watching the instruments in case you been hit you know. Watch your consumption. Swap, you have to swap one tank to another sometimes if it had been damaged. Or pumped the petrol into another motor, into another container.

Well there, we didn’t have Engineers to start with.

Oh yeah well he was pretty busy running around watching the instruments, turning the pumps on.

Oh we were all hooked

up together, earphones and so on. Lenny Gramps and the young chap they gave us, he was a London Policeman, he’d never flown before, he was good on instruments you know, fuel consumption which they were trained to watch.

Oh no, we knew them by their first names you know. Lenny and Ernie and Jimmy yep.

Well I used to teach them how to steer it just in case of emergency if I got killed so they could head it home you know. The Bomb

Aimer and the Navigator I taught, hang onto it and keep it going. They all had a go, but I got, trying to give them a bit of help.

Well they sent us to

a Base Camp crewing up. Once you’ve finished your training. I was fortunate enough to get the records of everybody so I picked the top, the top of each course, Navigator with a good record, Bomber, Bomb Aimer and 2 Gunners that can shoot, I formed the crew,

asked them if they’d like to join. I had a very mixed crew you see. I was the only Australian. 460 Squadron was all Australian but I had Canadian Bomb Aimer, English Engineer, English Navigator, English Wireless Op, American Mid Upper, an English rear gunner,

so that was mixed crew.

Yeah well, oh yeah. We used to go and play darts together and get around a bit.

Yep. If you didn’t choose them you were given someone you didn’t get on with. More or less pick

your own.

Yep, yeah. Our crew, very proud of our crew. They were a good crew. Very capable.

Well it depends what was available. If you had a few shot down and you were short of aircraft you get, wait for replacements to come in but I used to wait for mine to be serviced. Sometimes you had to take a spare if your aircraft wasn’t ready.

What they call a spare or a reserve aircraft. Nothing like flying your own, it’s got a certain feeling. Yeah.

No, they were all, I used to check, I used to check them. I was a Flight Commander. I used to pick all the spare aircraft. Make sure they were air worthy

while we were off duty, somebody would be allocated to do it. Yep.

Nothing different about it except like you know you get a good motor car and a poor performance motor car, they’d vary a bit in construction and aerodynamics and shape.

Some are faster than others but you get to love your own aircraft you know. Yeah ol’ Snifter would go pretty well G for George was a good aircraft, did a lot of trips. They’d get a bit rattly after all those trips.

No, only paint

and signers and names. You’d tell the ground crew if you wanted anything done.

They’d put a number on the side of your aircraft,

a bomb.

40 odd. G for George had a lot of different crews of course. Yeah had about 90 odd.

A lot of different Pilots and crews. Terry Carter did a lot of trips on it. That’s down in Canberra now, just been rebuilt because it was falling to pieces. The (UNCLEAR) and the elevators, canvas you know were rotting, so we had to get them rebuilt.

Well they’d tell you there was so many aircraft going on it, you’d fly at a certain height, and a certain speed, you’ll be taking a 4000 pound bomb, a load of high explosives or fire bombs, incendiaries and

time to bomb and then the Navigator would be given a map showing the, the route we had to fly. Yeah.

Just before we were in the briefing room all sitting down lined up. See how we go,

tell you, Navigation Officer and then you get in the bus and out in the aircraft and off. That was done for security reasons so people wouldn’t talk or the word would get out on where we were going.

Yep. More or less.

Yeah. Flying boots and helmet, yep, all ready.

We didn’t catch a bus, they send the crew, coached out to your aircraft

for dispersal. Everybody knew where their aircraft was. They take you straight out to it and then for luck they would spend a penny on the wheel, on the landing wheels before they got on the aircraft. That was a custom, spend a penny for luck on the wheel.

Yeah.

Tail wheel or two of the big front wheels. They had big wheels. 6 foot high front and back.

Oh we’d put them on board, then we had to run up the motors and make sure they’re all right. The ground crew had already done that but I always round them up and cut the switches and wait for the red light or the green light,

take off

On top of the runway. We call them Nappy Wagon. It was painted black and white and there’s a bloke in charge there of take offs. He used to give you a green light or a red light if there was another aircraft coming in or going off.

Yeah, coming around the taxi strip all line up one after the other.

Of course, different Squadrons and different aerodromes. Depends how big, where we had 3 flights at Binbrook, had a lot of aircraft.

On the front wheel.

Oh just hope for good luck and good weather and the Fighters, hope the Fighters don’t follow you.

Oh yeah, some of them had lucky charms. I didn’t have any that I can remember.

Oh blowed if I know. I wasn’t that superstitious but they had all sorts of, you know dolls and pictures of their girl friends I suppose. I don’t know,

all sorts of things. Never worried me much about lucky charms, too busy.

Well you’re on the dispersal with all the other aircraft and your turn to take off,

he shines the green light at you so you taxi around onto the main runway, head into wind and then OK open the throttles and lock them open full power, then you go and when you get, get full speed up you wind the trim back and ease her off. Some

people didn’t wind the trim back far enough, they hit the trees. A few of them went in on take off but once, once you’re airborne and got flying speed you lose your petrol, use your petrol then gain height, set course.

Oh plenty.

Only trouble is if you’re not climbing you’re flying low, not much space. If you’re climbing there’s plenty of room. If your powers not on you aircraft won’t climb will it?

Straight off the coast. Well we didn’t do many daytime raids but that far across the North Sea over France and then over Belgium, Holland, up the Kiel Canal up to the Baltic. Bomb the submarines. When they gave us Fighter escorts later on that happened a bit.

It was a bit dangerous flying in the daytime. The German Fighters were pretty good, yeah.

Only until you left England but they had to be careful with lights because the Germans would use them too. We’d fly to the coast

on a certain course bearing in mind collisions and your own aircraft and we fly a certain height. After you leave the coast you might be split onto another direction. Some sent to another target. Confuse the enemy, yeah. But if you were going to a long trip like

Berlin or somewhere you usually fly from Point A to Point B, yeah.

Well Berlin was the heavily defended one and the Ruhr but the Ruhr, big

factories there, Cologne and so on but they, it was so much shorter it was easier because you were there and back east in you know half the time. You’d fly all night some of those other long ones. Nuremberg, Berlin, Munich, Stettin, long way. Take off in the daylight land back in daylight the

next day, yep. A long way.

Oh quite a few, about 8 or 10 times I think.

Oh yeah, well and truly.

Well you couldn’t. They had searchlights and Fighters following you and they report back to the ground. You can’t do anything about it. They just you know add it up and follow you.

Well the Fighters were up there to defend their country, so they’re up above looking for you. Hunting. Dangerous past time.

No, they were faster than the, the Lanc.

Me 109s [German fighter plane, Messerschmitt] and they had, they had some good planes and apart from that, they’re up above you. They’d be up there, know you were coming they’d climb up and the higher one was the faster one isn’t he because he’d dive on you.

Oh yeah. See them in the searchlights.

See them on the tail of another aircraft shooting at ‘em. It was like Luna Park. Never a dull moment.

No, she was a bit red hot. Yeah.

The rear gunner got a few I believe. I was too busy up the front looking backwards. I’ll show you that book, yeah. ‘He Saw the World Backwards’ he, old Jimmy, he got a George Medal and a DFM - Distinguished Flying Medal. He was a good shot, ol’ Jimmo.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, Fighters and collisions.

Well you’d call the Mid Upper Gunner, call his attention to it. Starboard Upper

watch out, but they usually see it before you.

Yeah, Starboard, Port, Upper, 90 degrees, tell ‘em where to look.

Oh in an emergency, otherwise tell them to keep quiet. Emergency of a collision or a Fighter coming in, otherwise only if necessary.

Oh being coned I suppose. Fighters attacking you. Cone means you’re caught in the search lights,

you get 6 search lights over there and 6 over there and 6 behind you and they all form a, you know a median point and you’re in the middle of it. A lot of searchlights kept pick you up and all the Fighters come in see. They can see you.

Well Fighters come in and a lot of them used to dive down the cone, down the searchlight, pick up speed and then turn out. The searchlight can’t follow you, are too quick and then we were given what we call a corkscrew

in case the Fighter’s on your tail. The Fighter can’t hit you if you’re corkscrewing quickly, throwing the plane over and back and keeping the rudders, slide and miss. That’s the big thing, evasive action. Make it hard for the Fighters to get you and alter your altitude so that the searchlights can’t follow you. If you were at 20,000 you drop down to 18

they see the searchlight wandering all over the sky looking for you. You get too low the anti aircraft blokes on the ground will get you so you had to stay high enough to be away from the anti aircraft guns and the Fighters

and collisions. Yeah.

Oh yes, you can feel the guns too. The scream of the motors

if panics on and they’re diving and the roar of the wind, a bit noisy. You had to be careful they didn’t burst your eardrums. Change of altitude and pressure.

We didn’t do it purposefully, we did it to get away from the Fighters and the anti aircraft guns but it would affect your ears if you weren’t careful.

Same for everybody.

Hanging on, firing their guns

if they had a Fighter on our tail. Bomb Aimer wouldn’t be doing anything, the Wireless Op he’d be hanging on, the Navigator be hanging on.

Yeah, two, some of them did. Bomb Aimer,

Mid Upper had 2 and the rear gunner had 4

Did we do what?

No.

No, no,(UNCLEAR)

hard enough to get there without giving it away.

We were given alternative targets, you know, if you were damaged or hit there was a target on the way home

so you go for that. If it was on the track but mainly we were briefed what to do the whole way.

Yeah.

No, there were other aircraft on the raid briefed for that work, diversionary raids, faster aircraft, go down low, the Master Bomber, he was directing the raid.

Well there were flares dropped. Different coloured flares dropped by pathfinders marking the target and if they were off, off target Master Bomber would say bomb to the Starboard of the green flares or bomb to the Portside of the red flares

that’s the aiming point. Give you instructions because the wind would blow the flares, parachutes, wind would blow them off course and the Master Bombers would usually call out bomb to the port or bomb to the Starboard.

On a raid, oh yeah. Master Bomber, we had to all listen to him.

Oh we did back at base but we didn’t talk to one another in the air.

The main course, the main course.

No, no, he’s away down below looking at where the bombs are dropping and how it’s going. They used Mosquitoes for that work and Beaufighters (UNCLEAR)

Oh no, no, Master Bomber was usually in a Mosquito or a Beaufighter, something like that and they were down below directing the flow of bombs.

Yeah, it was a big strong aircraft, they and the Mosquito they could fire at the anti aircraft if they could see the guns, placements but we were too high, didn’t have the range of the guns.

We had Browning automatics but they had cannons.

Oh yeah, they’d fire at ‘em, sure. Yep.

Well he, he’s got to pick up the target and, and give the Navigator the course, Port or Starboard, target coming up. Navigator works on a dead reckoning. The Bomb Aimer works on eyesight and he’d tell the Navigator how we’re going on track

and then he’d open the bomb doors, press the button, bombs were ready, BANG, bombs gone, the aircraft would lift and then you’re on your way home, hopefully.

Well he’s looking at the ground.

The Gunners are looking up at the sky. There’s a Fighter coming in up at the sky above you, the Bomb Aimers looking down on the ground below you and you’re flying a course the Navigators given you for the target but the wind would blow you one way or the other same as the target indicators and the Bomb Aimer would say target 20 degrees

Starboard. The Navigator would mark it on his chart and give the Pilot instructions where to alter course you. Yep.

No you can’t see down below you. You’d feel them hit the ground and explode though, BOOM, sometimes.

Depends how high you were. 4000 pounder you could feel sometimes, blockbuster, BOOM.

That’s a cookie 4000 pounder, yeah. Blockbuster, cookies.

Well when you drop your 25,000 pounder bombs you know well the aircraft you feel them go through all that extra weight, you know. It was a relief to get rid of your bombs. Half your petrol’s gone and you got a light aircraft.

No. Oh no, you had to hang on.

Well climb, I used to climb out of the target, other aircraft you see. You’ve got to dodge coming in behind you. Fighters diving on you, you head for home. Your Navigator would give you a course

and you’d adjust your throttles and you get set for home, whatever course he’s given you.

Oh depends on the Navigator and what he’s been told, which course to come home.

The idea is to confuse the enemy. Sometimes we’d come up the Baltic, across Denmark into the North Sea, sometimes we’d come back over Belgium, Holland, sometimes over France, different courses. Do the same thing all the time they get used to you and they wait for you.

No, no you’ve got to be alert. You have your aircraft to look after and all the crew and watch out for Fighters and collisions. No you haven’t got time to relax mate, not until you get home.

No you couldn’t use it, if you were attacked by Fighter and you had Auto Pilot in, see it only flies straight and level, too dangerous.

Well it’s, it’s, it’s on the dashboard beside your control column. Plug it in. You used them on cross

country flights, you know, back over England, not over enemy territory.

No, had to watch out for collisions, other aircraft. German Fighters, a lot of them attack from underneath and come up underneath you. The Bomb Aimer had to look out for them.

I used to roll the aircraft a fair bit so that the Mid Upper could have a look too, what’s underneath you.

Oh he was inside the aircraft, just below where I’m looking out the window there but the rear gunner was

more open than that.

Oh Mid Upper, that position was very comfortable. They’re firing at you though. Depends which end of the aircraft the German Fighters would attack. Some would come in behind you,

some underneath, some would dive into attack. Some would go around and come at you head on. A lot of them did that. They did that to the Americans, the B-17’s, attacked them head on because the American Guns aimed backwards, nothing firing forward ‘til later on, they put cannons in the front but the Germans shot down a lot of the Yanks

by attacking them head on.

Oh it’s a good all general all purpose aircraft.

Oh yes, up, up high,

get you silhouetted against the lights on the ground.

Not every day. Depends on the weather and whether the aircraft was serviceable. Sometimes you’d get hit and knocked about. Take you a while to get the aircraft ready again.

Well we used to get every 6 weeks, we used to get a few days. Just a few days off to go down to London or have a game of darts but you’d do a tour. The first tour was

30 trips. Pathfinders 20 trips, then the second tour add another 20 on, various, there were various categories.

Six weeks

Well you’re just happy to get on a train and go down to see all the people. Say G’day. Have a beer, game of darts. We used to play cricket matches against locals around the dartboard. Go for the numbers and that’s the wickets and then the other side would go and go for runs

played test matches. Yeah, I was in London one night, went out, we had a test match and we went back to this fellows place and lit a big log fire and had a game of cards and

there was an anti aircraft battery in the park opposite and anyway it started to fire and I went out and leant against the back fence and watched this German Bombers coming over and this anti aircraft battery park firing at it and one of the bombs hit this house where we were playing cards, killed everybody. Only that I was sticky beaking went out into the backyard

leant against the fence. Blew me 3 yards away the blast, the fence saved me. I was blown 3 yards away. When I went back all the house was gone. All killed, all the blokes I’d been playing cards with and darts. How lucky you can be. Yeah, direct hit. BOOM. Only that I said to

the fellows I’m going out to have a look at this, this raid search lights were on. Give you an idea what it’s like, BANG.

Yeah, oh yeah, the blast was terrific. It was only for the fence that I’d have probably had my neck broken. The fence you know, bang.

Lying on the ground on the fence.

I went back to the house where we’d been playing cards and there’s the mess.

Well it’s like this room, dead bodies. Oh all the

walls fell in, hell of a mess, yeah.

Well there was nothing left to burn. It was a brick building, all fell in. Oh there were fires everywhere. Fires in other places next door.

Yeah.

No, how can you help them, they’re dead. The anti aircraft battery boys from over the park came over see if they could help but it was no good so I walked down to the railway and got the train back up

to London. That was at Croydon where that bomb hit, near the aerodrome. South Croydon, London. I’ll never forget that.

Not much good crying lad. I was stunned. Can you have a look and see if that nurse has been there. I haven’t heard her.