Australians at War Film Archive

I was born in Caulfield and I lived in Caulfield most of my early life.

Went to school at Tooronga Road Central School. Left when I was fourteen and it was in the height of the depression and things were very bad. My father was out of work and we just struggled along as best we could. I had one brother, he is two years younger than I am.

What else would you like to know, you lead me on?

Most of my school days.

No he was just an ordinary worker, and he eventually got work on the Tramway board and he worked there until I joined the army.

I joined the army on my twentieth birthday because at that particular time if you were under twenty you had to have your parents’ permission to join up. And I came home to join up, I had only been home about a quarter of an hour and my father walked in and I said, “What are you doing here?” and he said, “You’re joining up I am joining up too.” So we both went up to the drill hall at Malvern

and we had only been there about ten minutes when my younger brother who was eighteen, he arrived too. He wanted to join up as well but because he was only eighteen and his parents weren’t happy about him joining he had to stop where he was for the next two years.

He enlisted with me and we were together

until we went to the Middle East and then because he was over forty, he was put in a battalion, it was called the Old and the Bold. And the chaps that were a bit mature they had to do special duties in Palestine and I went to Lebanon to join the 2/14th and we saw action up there

in Syria and that’s skipping into the war part there.

Oh yes he was about eighteen or seventeen when the Great War broke out.

Yes. My mother’s two brothers both joined up and saw service in France and Egypt. And they both came back okay. Took up soldier settlements around

Gippsland which they stayed on for a few years. But they weren’t very successful at farming although they had both been born in the country and one joined the police force and the other went into business.

They were both born in

Gippsland. My mother was born in Loch, my father was born in Trafalgar in about the 1898s I think they were both born about the same year. Come on Colin [interviewer] ask me questions.

Well we didn’t live very far from lots of racing stables in Caulfield because Caulfield Race

course wasn’t far away and I have always been interested in horses and I spent quite a bit of time exercising and riding around on race horses. There was no other particular thing that I can think of that took up a lot of our time. Although there probably was but being so long ago it is hard to remember much about what happened then.

Well starting school and...

Tooronga Road. A fairly big primary school and I was quite happy there. We had quite a few mates that didn’t live far from us. And it was in the height of the depression and everybody was finding it pretty hard to get by but we managed somehow or other.

Well the lack of money and just scraping through to survive. When things were really bad you could get

sustenance. You would get coupons to go to different stores to help you get provisions to find enough to eat and things like that. Lots of single fellows just walked the countryside, they went from place to place asking for a hand out. It was pretty pathetic really.

People that didn’t go through it don’t realise what hardships were. But my mother was a very strong willed woman and she went out and did housework and things like that to earn a meagre few bob when she could. And

at one time my father went away to a work camp in pine plantations at Smiths Creek out at Ballarat. And he was out there quite a few months. It was a regular thing for people who were finding things hard. They would get the opportunity to go there and work for a few months or so. That enabled them

to earn a little bit of money. Anyhow things gradually picked up in the 30s and we all got by all right.

Oh yes very important because I know we

used to go to the grocer store and buy ham bones and things and my mother would make pea soup and ham soup with the ham bones. We always had bread and we would have fried bread. It was nothing to have fried bread with dripping and salt and pepper on them.

Well something would come out way and we would have a good meal. We weren’t on the bread line all of the time. We didn’t actually go hungry or anything like that we always seemed to have something to eat.

Caulfield wasn’t so bad. It was a suburb where quite a few people didn’t have hardships and they would help the ones that were having a rough time. All in all everyone helped each other to get along.

It was a real passion with me, I used to spend a lot of time exercising. Actually the stable was quite near our place and they had a pony that you could ride and exercise the horses off.

And that was my hobby, looking after him and riding him a lot and leading horses from him.

Well you ride one and you have one beside you on a lead rope and you ride along and exercise the race horse while you riding the exercising pony.

Nothing that won a terrible lot of races I am afraid. They did win races but there was nothing outstanding.

That’s about the period and Phar Lap. He is well known.

Not so much the racing side of it, the horses themselves and I am still interested to this day. And right up until a couple of years ago I did a lot of showing with horses. I have got three children and my eldest daughter is still very heavily involved with showing harness horses and she lives a few

kilometres away. Until recently I had a farm quite near to Warrigal about three kilometres south and e kept the horses there but I sold that and moved in here and the horses are at my daughters place. So it is a thing that has been with me all of my life.

Yes my father was very interested in horses, he was a jockey in his early days and my mother came from a farm where their main transport was horses and she had a horse too so it was something that I always had an interest in.

When I was real young there was quite a few, mainly horses in bakers and butchers carts. And quite a few were just driving them in their jinkers. And when the cars came out the horses just faded out. To a certain extent, then they have come back in, showing tremendous interest in them now. It is surprising when you go to an agricultural show now to see

how many people are there with horses and so forth.

No they were right near where we lived. There is about twenty units built where the stables were, I was just down their recently. I was surprised at all of these units, the stables have disappeared and the units have gone up in their place. It is right next

to a big park. It is a lovely area to live really , and the units are quite expensive you know. A lot of the houses around there have gone now too and units have been built.

Yes but I never as interested in the actual racing, in cantering and all of that as I was in the horses themselves, that was my interest.

No they were all what we call battlers. They had never had a champion horse or anything like that they just rented these stables and kept horses there.

No it was all just for the love of doing it.

Yes I did but not until after the war really. That’s when I got the opportunity, I bred quite a few horses and went into it seriously, not commercially but as a hobby.

And some that I bred were thoroughbreds and raced. Had a small amount of success around the country.

Yes a cousin of mine married Scobie Breasley who has just now turned ninety and he was a champion jockey in his time. He won about

five Caulfield Cups, never won a Melbourne Cup but placed in them. And then he went to England and rode successfully over there and then he took on training in England and trained a lot of winners. He is the only prominent one that I had close association with.

Well I visited quite a lot and kept in touch with them all of the years. That’s about it.

No not really.

I was an

average scholar in most things. A bit above average in arithmetic and mental arithmetic and that sort of thing. And if my parents had have been in a position for me to go on I would have liked to have gone one and furthered my education. but when I was about thirteen or fourteen I got my merit certificate and that’s as much as you got

those days.

Yes I got work at a printing firm in Melbourne and I worked there for quite a while. Then I transferred to a firm

called Nella Electroplating Company. And they had they used to do silver plating, chromium plating and they had a factory in South Yarra and they also had a city depot in Elizabeth Street and I got the position of looking after the city depot and all clients could bring in their products that they wanted electroplated and leave them

there and I worked there right up until I joined the army.

South Yarra. Argo Street South Yarra.

Average, nothing to get very excited about.

Well in those days everybody went to the Saturday night dance and my brother and I were both keen to go to these dances. And that’s what we did every Saturday night and met lots of people and made friends. Unfortunately they are all dropping off the perch today

but still quite a few that we are in contact with.

Mostly local, not far from home.

Yes there was one at Carnegie. That was a popular one. They were all over the place really, Leggett’s ballroom in Prahran. I can’t remember all of the names of them. there was a couple down in St Kilda and they were all easy to get to from Caulfield, hop on a tram an away you went.

No I think we just learnt as we went along. It wasn’t difficult for us we just sort of fell into the rhythm of doing it.

Oh the foxtrot and the waltz and the barn dance. And

I am trying to think of what they call it. It was the,

It came into

the picture during our dancing time. I know the one I am trying to think of, it was in sets, four couples and you would go through all of the routines, lively sort of a dance to the tune of a jig you know? That was very popular.

But that’s all forgotten now.

Oh a four piece orchestra you know.

Quite good really.

Excellent.

Things were different then. Everybody had fun and they didn’t need a lot of things to boost them up like they do today.

They were unheard of. Absolutely.

Alcohol was drunk a little bit but not very much. Somebody might run

outside and have a swig of something and run back in again. I didn’t strike it very much.

Never did and I still don’t.

Well some people were really in love and went together to everything. One of those things you know. Somebody meets somebody and that starts it and away they go.

I had quite a few but no particular one at that particular time.

Well you might go down to the St Kilda beach which wasn’t so far away and there was a nice pier there and you would walk out on the pier. And a kiosk on the end of it and you might have afternoon tea or

something and come home. Or they might ask you to their place to Sunday nights tea or something like that.

Yes I did and when I met Phyllis who is my wife I spent a lot of time visiting her place. It was just a co-incidence that I had been to

Hamilton where Phyllis lived and met her and then when I joined up we were sent to Hamilton to train, and of course I called on Phyllis’ place and it became a regular thing to go down there every opportunity. And there was lots of country dancing and

we did have a reasonable amount of spare time from our camp and I think we must have been there for four or five months, perhaps a bit more. And then we were sent to Bacchus Marsh which is much nearer to Melbourne. The camp there was at Darley which is just a couple of kilometres out of Bacchus Marsh. And

from there we were sent to Sydney and we embarked on the Queen Mary and went straight to the Middle East.

Well I had a cousin who was engaged to a girl from Hamilton and he used to go up there occasionally to visit her and her people and he had a car and he would say, “What about coming to Hamilton for company?” And that’s how I first met Phyllis, she lived

quite close to Jean Lovell who was the girl my cousin was engaged to. That’s how I met her in the first place.

I did yes.

She will tell you the same thing when she comes out. I know that there was a dance every Saturday night in Hamilton at St Mary’s Hall and the first time that I met her they said, “Go up to the dance and meet Phyllis Bourke.” And I went up to the dance hall and I went

in and I said to someone, “Which girl is Phyllis Bourke?” and they said, “That one over there in the red and white dress.” And I went up and made myself known and that was our first meeting.

And she was a pretty good dancer. And of course when it came time to go home she had to go in the same direction as me and

we walked home together.

She did but she became my more serious girlfriend when I went to camp at Hamilton. It is quite a trick of fate to think that I was sent to that particular town.

It did and you know Chamberlain wanted to keep peace

no matter what but most people felt that it was a mistake because Hitler was taking over Europe bit by bit and the writing was on the wall. People felt that we can’t just keep appeasing him all of the time we have got to do something about it.

Yes it did, I think most people felt well we can’t avoid war we have got to do something.

Nothing whatsoever. I just felt that such a lot of other people were joining and going it was something I had to do too.

Nineteen.

Not specifically no. A lot of chaps that were older than I was at the time would remember it very well. But that doesn’t click in my

brain at all.

Well I thought after the experiences the Australians had in the First World War, I thought this is a terrible thing and

and we had to do something about it, there wasn’t much anyone could do individually except join the army or join some service to do something.

Yes that’s the only thing I thought about joining.

Mainly patriotism. And seeing such a lot of other chaps joining up and going off and you think well I should be doing my share, I should be in it too.

No I didn’t really I told them prior to my twentieth birthday that when I turned twenty I was joining the army. It was quite a shock when my father joined up at the same time. And during my periods at the training camp and all of that he was there too.

He sort of did his thing and I did mine. And when we went overseas we both went over together on the Queen Mary and it was only after we had been in Palestine a short time that he joined the Old and Bold and I went to the 2/14th.

I just thought well I couldn’t believe it really, I got quite a shock and I thought well if that’s what's going to happen that’s what's going to happen.

She was devastated really especially when my younger brother wanted to join up too. I think he

had to wait about twelve months and he was accepted in the air force. He was apprenticed to electrical engineering and he went into the air force and I think that’s the type of work he did in the air force, he wasn’t in air crew or anything. And he went to the islands in

the Pacific and saw service over there. He got through all right. So the three of us all came back we were very lucky.

Yes it was very hard on her.

Well she just accepted it all. Kept in touch with us and was

very happy to see us all come back eventually.

No we just went to the Malvern drill hall and we all had to strip off and be medically examined

and sign the papers and that and then we went home and a few days later we were notified to report to the Caulfield Racecourse where there was a big military establishment. And we got issued with our uniforms and so forth and from there we were sent to Hamilton.

I think it was a week or two. Not a very long period. See it is all sixty odd years ago it is hard to remember detail.

Well it was all a bit strange we weren’t used to that sort of environment. But it was just this is it, we have got to knuckle down and do what we have to do and just accept things. Which we did.

Yes we were all in the

same boat and everybody was making the most of things. Joking, laughing and thinking well we are in for whatever we are in for and we have got to put up with it.

I don’t think so I think everybody was very optimistic that everything would turn out all right. If you were worried about things you wouldn’t have

been there you wouldn’t have joined up.

Like they all became mates when you got into camp and you got to know each other, but prior to that there was no one in particular that I knew very well that had joined up at the same time.

Not a great deal. We were both in the same platoon but whatever we had to do, we did most things at the same time. It was a strange situation really, you didn’t sort of want to be following your

dad around everywhere. You did what you had to do and he did what he had to do.

End of tape

No not at all, but we had a few funny instances. We went by train to Sydney and we got on the Queen Mary and we sailed to

Suez to go through the Suez Canal but we got off the boat, we went to see I am not sure, Aden is at one end of the Suez and Suez at the other, but when we got to the end of the Suez Canal we disembarked and got on a train to go to Palestine. And when we got to Palestine

it was just on dark and we all got off the train and we were quite near a camp that knew we were a lot of new recruits coming and the set off flares and let off guns that made us think we were getting off near a battlefield and we had to get off the train and walk along the track carrying all of our gear and that and my father was walking beside me and all of a sudden he went down a culvert

and said, “Oh my God I am done! I am shot son I have had it!” And he had only fallen down a culvert you know, and so that caused a bit of fun. That’s one thing I can remember vividly happening. Anyhow.

Oh a matter of months but I can’t remember how many.

Drilling and falling in and marching, march for miles. All to get you fit I think and to get you used to being in the army. Nothing specific, just exercise and shooting your rifle.

Being used to being disciplined you know. When they give you an order you had to do it. That’s the main basis of the training I would think.

Pretty tough.

Not really they realised they had to do what they have got to do and that was it. I suppose some people found it harder than others, some weren’t used to being told what to do but when you’re in the army that’s it.

Not perhaps as well equipped as they could have been. You know you had your rifle and bayonet and ammunition and that was it.

Just ordinary military rifles.

Yeah that sort of thing. We never trained with machine guns or anything but they were available especially when we got into action.

I think we might have been.

Yes we had a reasonable amount of free time.

We had to do camp duty and could be away at certain times, but we were more or less rostered you know.

Well all sorts of duties around the camp you know. Cleaning out the latrines and being on mess duty, quite a few.

Yes we had a reasonable amount of free time.

Well they were yes,

they were just ordinary uniforms, nothing out of the ordinary, nothing like the Americans had. Pretty rough and ready really. We had to have our boots polished and buckles all brassoed and all of that sort of thing.

I wouldn’t say I was really enjoying it, I thought that’s it I have got to do it. I wasn’t depressed or worried or anything about it.

Well he seemed to be able to cope with it all right. He was a chap that never

worried about anything, very easy going and that was it.

Yeah we went down to a camp just out of Bacchus Marsh called Darley and that was a big camp and it was from there we embarked to go over to Sydney and from there to the Middle East.

No very similar.

Yes but when we went to the Middle East a certain number were sent to re-enforce different battalions that had been over there for a while and that’s when I was sent up to

Syria, Lebanon to join the 2/14th. They had been formed at Puckapunyal and been in the Middle East I don’t know how many months before I got there. I joined them after their first engagement up in, I got there in time to be involved in some of their action in Syria

and from then I was in the 2/14th until I was discharged.

Yes it was because the Queen Mary at that time was the biggest ocean liner. But

it had all been made into a troopship, there was nothing elaborate about the ship itself. We all just did drill on the decks and so forth. As we got into the tropics and the hotter weather we just sunbaked

filled in the time the best way we could .there was still a swimming pool on board and we would have our turns at jumping in the pool and so on.

We were just all in bunks all in a row.

We didn’t call in any ports, we left Sydney and went straight to the Suez Canal.

There probably was a destroyer or two within sight of us as we sailed no air force or anything

escorting us.

Reasonably good. We always got our rations which was quite adequate.

We were reasonably happy about everything.

No I was very fortunate I didn’t suffer with seasickness very much. Later in life Phyllis and I did a cruise and I said, “Oh you don’t get seasick or anything.” And we did we both got seasick.

Yes we did, Vaccinated and had a series of needles and so forth. That was ordinary procedure I think.

No I don’t think so.

In the arm.

No we were just on the arm.

Yes we were.

Just getting us psyched up about what to expect and what not to expect and so forth. We weren’t brainwashed or anything just lectures about what could happen or what might happen,

I don’t think we were well informed but we were informed to a certain degree. Everything was pretty censored they didn’t want us to know too much. Rumours would go around and they would always be exaggerated and they weren’t always true. But there was probably a little bit of truth in them because you know how

rumours go from one to another and get exaggerated.

None in particular no.

Oh yes and they lectured us about the dangers of venereal disease and all of that sort of thing you know, which quite a few of the chaps got. Can I answer it?

Well I had better not.

Yeah.

Well I know a few of my friends got it.

No.

But see when we were coming back we got one ship to Bombay and disembarked in Bombay and that’s where a few of them visited houses of ill repute and that was the result.

Yes and they were all treated satisfactorily, it was mainly gonorrheae.

I don’t know what methods they use but they clear it up pretty well.

It was desert country sand dunes and all of that sort of thing.

And we were sitting in a little railway carriage jogging along and seeing all of this sand and Bedouins occasionally and that sort of thing. It was all so long ago. And really I haven’t brought it back to mind very much.

No we went to Gaza. I had my twenty-first birthday in Palestine.

I can remember sitting in a sort of a camp hut and my mother had got a hot loaf of bread and put a bottle of wine in it and, there was a way of doing it and she found out about it and that got to me in time for my twenty first birthday. So I can remember knocking the top off

that and handing it around to about half a dozen of us sitting in this hut you know. That’s something I can remember.

That’s right.

Yes and we weren’t there for any great periods of time you know.

Not very much no.

Yes it was from Palestine I was sent up to Beirut and Syria. And Beirut was a very beautiful town on the Mediterranean and it was known as the Paris

of the Middle East and I did get leave there and actually later on I can tell you a story about having the opportunity to go back there when the war was in its last stages, but that will come afterwards I

think it wouldn’t fit in now.

Yes. Well when I come back from New Guinea I was full of malaria and hookworm and I had had a few other sickness’ and I was made medically B class and I was sent to Myrtleford to help guard the Italian

prisoners of war and when it came time for a certain amount of them to be repatriated to Italy there was about twenty of us picked out to escort back to Italy and I can’t remember the name of the ship we sailed on and we went from Melbourne around to Perth and

we only stopped at Perth to refuel or something and then we set off through the Indian Ocean and we had only been out a few days and the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and the war was over. But the European War had ended before and that’s why we were taking Italian prisoners back to Italy

and when we got to Naples there was a major in charge of us and we let the Italian prisoner off the ship and we could have stayed on it and gone on to England and he said, “Oh no we will get off here and have a good look at Italy.” So we got off in Italy, Naples and the ship went sailing onto England. We found we were stumped there without any means of getting anywhere else. We had a good time in Italy because we

stopped in a NAAFI [Navy Army Air Force Institute] camp that had been one of the palaces in Naples and it had every amenity and so forth and we were there for about six weeks and all of a sudden there was a ship going across to Egypt that we could get on and we went across and were dumped in Cairo for another six weeks

While we were there another chap and I have leave and I said, “We will hop on a train and go up to Beirut.” It was a day or twos journey, but we went up there to have a look because I just wanted to have a look at it again. And while we were there we were in a hotel we were on about the third floor and it overlooked the centre of the town which was called the

Place des Canons and there was a riot went on in there and someone in the hotel threw a bottle down on these demonstrators and they looked up and saw us Aussies with our slouch hats on and they thought we were the culprits. So we were sort of held in the hotel so the mob couldn’t get at us. And the

British Mps [Military Police] sent a car out for us and we were put in and taken a few kilometres out of town and put in prison there. So we would be out of harms way. That was quite an interesting experience. And then we got back to Egypt and still had to wait for transport to come back to Australia.

Yes.

I am not sure. Something to do with internal trouble in Beirut, they are always having trouble over there with one thing or another.

It did yes.

Well it was right on

the sea and the scenery was very good. And we were in a camp in a suburb of Beirut and we had access to go into the city as much as we liked and I thought it was a pretty nice place.

Yes.

I felt that that’s where I belonged and I had quite a few very good mates there.

Yes they had.

They lost quite a few up there and they needed d quite a few re-enforcements.

Yeah a batch of us.

Oh their morale was very good. But you know, they did lose quite a few and we were there to see quite a bit of action too. See we were

fighting the Vichy French up there and then when the action was over we came into the suburbs of Beirut and were there for quite a while.

It was about halfway through.

See I really didn’t know the details. De Gaulle he was the Vichy French I think do you know?

Our allies. Yeah but you see after the Syrian campaign that sort of ironed itself out, there were no more Vichy French, that sort of ironed it out. I don’t know exact details of it all. You might have heard of it have you?

It did yes and it still seems odd to try and understand why or how.

It was but they were our enemy and we had to fight them anyway no matter what.

Yeah.

That’s right.

Yes that would be right yeah.

Very rugged country and

it was sort of, you know fighting was very spasmodic because they would be in one spot and we would be in another. It wasn’t like a straight out fighting

viciously all of the time, just when you got an opportunity to have a shot at them or vice versa they could have a shot at us.

Well patrols would go out but when we got word that we could move forward we would.

Pretty tough.

Only about half a dozen involved at a time we would only be advancing in small numbers too.

Yes at times it would be pretty fierce and other times pretty spasmodical.

Oh yes I think it did prepare us for that sort of thing.

Yes so there you are.

I would say about fifteen months. I mean I really can’t remember I am just guessing.

Oh yes you would. Actually it wasn’t long after I arrived there the ceasefire was announced. And that was it.

Yeah well then we all went back to Palestine

and we were called back to Australia because the Jap’s were advancing. And we got on a ship and we were headed for Singapore but just before we got to Singapore Singapore fell so we were diverted down to Perth and then around to Melbourne where we all disembarked and were allowed to go home for a couple of weeks.

And then we were all sent up to a place called Yandina in Queensland and then from Yandina we went to Townsville and then we all got on troop ships there and went to New Guinea and we were sent straight to the Owen Stanley Ranges, to the Kokoda Trail.

Yes. But we knew we were where we were and we had to go where we were put. No one thought we have got to rush home, there was no good feeling that, we thought we were going to Malaya or Singapore or something like that,

we didn’t think we were coming home. But we did come home and then we were sent up to New Guinea.

Well that’s where the ship was heading. We were just put on a ship. We didn’t know where we were going but as rumours headed around, heading for here and there, and we were heading for Singapore,

but it fell before we got there. So we were sent back to Aussie and then we were sent to New Guinea.

Well it was built up to full strength with re-enforcements and so forth. When we came back to Australia we had a full complement. And we trained

up at Yandina, for, I don’t know how long it was, it might have been weeks. And then we went to Townsville to disembark for New Guinea.

Not far out of Nambour.

Well not a lot of jungle around Yandina. We just did what we always did. Drilled, marched, obeyed orders. And

then when we could get transport up to New Guinea we went by train I think up to Townsville. And then on board troop carriers, I forget what they used to call them, these special things that the Americans built very quickly. They had a special name.

They could have been I don’t know.

We knew we were going up there yeah, because it was looking pretty desperate at the time.

Well they were in the Middle East for quite a long time but I don’t really remember how he got back. He got back to Melbourne and got discharged I think before I did. I joined up in 1940 and I was

discharged in 1945 so I had five years in the army and little more than half of it was spent overseas. It is on my discharge how many days I served overseas how many days I was in the army.

No mainly, not exactly administrative work but you know getting stores and provisions and all of that sort of thing to where they had to go and so forth. He lived until he was ninety-two and really

I didn’t go into detail of what he did and didn’t do. Actually, he got home all right. Didn’t have any hair raising experiences I don’t think.

Vaguely. I know she was extremely happy and it was a great relief to her. There was no great celebrations or anything.

Yes I caught up with Phyllis not long after I came back. She was in the camp at Ivanhoe Grammar School and I was sent to the Heidelberg Military Hospital and I know another chap in the 2/14th Jack Creer he was in the hospital too and somehow or other we got our uniforms on and

pulled them over our pyjamas and went from the hospital over to the Ivanhoe Girls Gramma to visit Phyllis and one of her girlfriends over there, and I said to Phyllis at the time, “I think we better get married what do you?” “Oh Yes!” I said, “Not now wait for some time.” I can remember that

quite plainly. And then when I recuperated enough I was sent to Myrtleford to help guard the Italian prisoners. And then when they were going to be repatriated that’s when I was picked out to go to Italy to escort them.

Yeah the whole battalion went to Yandina which is not far from Nambour. And we had leave in Nambour one day and

I can’t remember people names but a very nice family who lived close to Yandina and had quite a big pineapple plantation asked me and a few other chaps out to their place which was very good of them. They were very nice people and I can’t even remember their names.

That’s one incident I remember at Yandina, and from there we went up to Townsville to embark for New Guinea. And we got off at New Guinea,

Very little. I hadn’t

learnt much about New Guinea. We just arrived there and we more or less had to go straight into the Owen Stanleys and you know I wasn’t a real robust sort of person and we had a fairly

heavy amount of gear on and we had to climb up these ridges in the Owen Stanleys and it was very muddy and slushy and there was a slight step so to speak. A stake in each side and a branch across it to give us a grip to walk across these steep ridges. When you went over there

did you experience any of that? It was very heavy going and we sort of run out of food. We went to a sort of a plateau and we were all really hungry. And planes came over and they dropped bully beef and biscuits and we could replenish our supplies and have something to eat there.

And because I have never dwelt on it, the troops that were already there were in a very bad way. We had to relieve them. Some of them were able to carry on but quite a few were in such a bad way they had to retreat.

We went forward but we had terrible heavy losses. And I don’t know how but we all formed up on a clearing one day and General Blamey came to visit us and a lot of people weren’t impressed with the speech that he gave us. I can remember him very clearly saying that we were going into the

jungle to fight very callous barbarians, the way he said it. But I don’t remember him saying much about the rabbit that runs and gets shot. A lot of people took offence at that but I don’t remember him saying that but he must have said it. From then on we started to have fairly heavy casualties and

it was a bit heartbreaking to see so many chaps get killed and wounded. The fuzzy wuzzies were stretcher bearers and they were tremendous how they helped carry the wounded out. And because the Jap’s had a shorter line of supply from the other

coast over Gona or Buna which one was it? Which was on the coast the other side?

Yeah and hey could keep all of their supplies up and ours was harder to get over to us. As they pushed us back their supply lines got longer and ours got shorter and we were in a better position to combat them.

But I can remember of a night we would be on one ridge here and whether they did it to impress us or what you would see literally thousands of lights along the ridges, their troops and they were all carrying a little light, and we would think there is no end of it! There is so many of them coming across. And

actually you know some of my very best friends had terrific injuries and there was no one to help them. They were just wandering through the jungle and weren’t heard of again. Somehow or other I never got hurt.

And as we went further over to Gona and Buna their opposition to us became less and less and when we got quite near the coast the ground levelled out. I had to go in amongst long Kunai grass and lay a land line so they could talk

from the very front back to headquarters. And as I walked on this track was a Japanese laying right in front of me with his rifle. He never fired or anything. Or perhaps he tried to and his rifle didn’t work and I called out to the fellows behind me, “There is a Jap here.” And they all came running up. And one of them prodded him with his

toe and the Japanese just jabbered away in Japanese which we didn’t know what it was about .and one of the fellows there just pumped bullets into him and that’s the end of him. then we got to the coast and my OC [Officer Commanding] was a chap called Maurie Tracy who was a fine chap.

And the Japanese were all entrenched around this coastal area and we were absolutely bombarding them and that and there was Japanese killed and that laying around everywhere and Maurie Tracy went forward

to see what the situation was and a sniper got him and shot him through the head. And we just annihilated the Japanese there. And then I was sent with about fifteen other chaps on a patrol along the coast. And we were in the

scrub just back from the foreshore and we camped there through the night and during the night we could hear this Japanese voice talking and splashing along and it was a patrol of Japanese paddling in about six inches of water along the coast and we just sat there silently

because we didn’t know where they were going or what they were doing. And they just walked straight past us and they never had any inkling that we were in the bush there. I am not sure how I got back across the Owen Stanleys, but I know that I was in a pretty bad state of health.

And then I was repatriated back to Melbourne. The whole thing was over, that was the end of it and then I was sent to the Heidelberg Military Hospital. And when I was well enough I was sent to Myrtleford to the Italian prisoner of war camp and that was pretty easy going up there

and I went back to Italy with the prisoners when they were repatriated back. Come on Cath ask me some questions.

Yes but we only had to sort of lay the lines for the very front troops to talk to the ones a bit further back the headquarters, tell them how progress was going. Beside that we had to engage the enemy when we had to

and we were in the thick of it all of the time.

Well it wasn’t bad because it was just a wire and you just had to unfoil it and lay it along the track you know. There was no real difficulty in it but we had to go right up to the furthest outpost with it so they could talk back.

I find it hard to recall it all now, I haven’t really thought about it much. I have had no reason to discuss it with anybody.

Oh vividly, they were tremendous. They would get across creeks and fast flowing rivers carrying stretchers before them with a pole on each shoulder with a chap laying in the stretcher. Getting him across all of this rugged country and ravines and so forth,

getting him back to where they could get attention. But as I said before a lot of them just. I can remember one chap, his arm was just riddled with bullets and holes and that and he didn’t know where he was or what he was doing. He just wandered into the jungle and there would be lots of chaps like that. You would never hear from them again.

There was no way of them getting out or doing anything.

There was none there for them to go to. It would be on the top of a ridge and there was jungle either side of it and they couldn’t do anything. They would be badly wounded and they couldn’t help themselves and there was no one much there to help them.

Maurie Tracy.

Yes and I mean it is a terrible thing to say. I wouldn’t know whether he was hit with one of our own bullets or an enemy bullet. There was bullets everywhere you know. I have often wondered about that.

No we were fighting a post like a Japanese wouldn’t be there headquarters, it was right on the coast and they were all entrenched in trenches

and above these trenches there was like a few native huts on stilts you know? And we were just there to annihilate them and get rid of them all. And that’s what we did. But in the meantime we had some casualties. And this chap that I knew so well and admired a lot,

he got shot. He had come through all of the different campaigns, overseas and he had sort of a charmed life until that particular moment.

Yes. Actually he was a lieutenant and he had to censor all of our mail and when I would write

home, I didn’t know this until I came home, he would always write something on it to Phyllis or my mother.

No he was from Mildura his father was a captain of one of the riverboats. But when he joined up he was just a private like everybody else but he rose up through the ranks and became a lieutenant. And I think just before he was killed he was mentioned

I think it was a distinguished NCO [Non Commissioned Officer] I think he got, he got quite a military honour you know.

Yes and how we got out to the Owen Stanleys, I don’t know. I don’t even know how far the start of the Owen is from Port Moresby.

I don’t know if we walked or had transport or what. But we got there. Some of us got back

some didn’t.

They were already there and they had done a wonderful job. But they were at the end of their tether and we sort of took over from them.

Yes but I know it was a clearing it was quite a big space, it might have been up on the mountains, but it was quite flat and we were all formed up there. And then the other place where they dropped the bully beef and biscuits to us, that was a fairly flat area up on top of the mountains too.

It wasn’t where Blamey gave his speech.

See names and that don’t mean anything to me because I don’t remember them. I know there is one place up there called Isurava and I think that’s the turning point where we started to advance and the Jap’s started to retreat. I am not sure but I think it was

at Isurava.

Yes I can remember all of these ridges, which I suppose you would call them dugouts. We would have four or five chaps in the dugout with a machine gun

and the Jap’s would fire mortars at us. Now I have just thought of a name Jimmy Scullion. He was in one of these dugouts and the mortar lobbed right in with him and that was the end of Jimmy Scullion an the other few chaps that were in there with him. That name has just come back to me. And I have been trying to remember his name for a long time.

And couldn’t. Just come back.

He was a very good friend of mine. I know when we had leave in Brisbane before we left Queensland to go to

New Guinea, we had leave for a few days in Brisbane. And Jimmy Scullion and I and a few other chaps, one of them we used to call Kenny Dagwood but I don’t know whether Dagwood was his proper name or not, but we all had quite a good time in Brisbane together for those few days. Another good friend was Jack Creer.

He came from Geelong and he was the chap that was in hospital with me at Heidelberg when we sneaked out at night and put our uniforms over our pyjamas and went out to see Phyllis and her girlfriends at the grammar school where they were all encamped.

A couple of them when we eventually got back to Melbourne came and stayed a day or two at my place just before they went off to their, well Dagwood was from Tasmania and jack was from Geelong, I know they stopped about two days and then they went to their own particular places.

Yes they were.

No actually we all operated as a group because the track was a narrow and it

seemed to be all one after the other along it. And when we did actually meet up with the Jap’s we all went into dug holes along it. And you know we didn’t have an opportunity to be in separate sections and that just more or less in the long line.

Well quite often we would just join the party which was out where we had taken the line to. And

if they were able to advance further we would advance further to take the communication so anything could be related to headquarters. So once we started to push the Jap’s back we just advanced with them with our own forward group. And we didn’t get pushed back from

then on. We just advanced when they advanced and that’s how when we got down to the flat country before the sea, all of this high Kunai grass it was over your head. And there would be just tracks, and that’s when I came across this Japanese soldier. It was just fate that I didn’t get shot. And

all through the whole thing I never got hurt. I got malaria and hookworm and all sorts of things but I never got shot.

Oh yes. I never ever got to a stage where I wasn’t capable

of carrying out my duties. It was just that I had this hookworm and malaria but I was able to carry on until the fighting had ceased and then I was put in a military hospital in New Guinea a huge tent and treated there and then repatriated back to Melbourne

and then put into Heidelberg Hospital. When I was okay I was still made B class and that’s why I was sent to the Italian prisoner of war camp at Myrtleford. The prisoners were all in a compound and we used to be situated around it in elevated posts. Used to do

two hours on and two hours off for a couple of days and then you would have leave to go into Myrtleford. And a lot of these Italian prisoners of war went out during the day to work on farms around Myrtleford and then they would come back at night. And I do believe that quite a few of them

migrated to Australia after they had gone back and settled into their home life, they thought well ti was pretty good when we were out there as prisoners of war, we will go back out there to live. And I think quite a few of them settled in the Myrtleford area because there was a lot of tobacco farms there and that and the Italians did very well at growing tobacco.

Very good.

They seemed to be quite happy with their life there, going out and working and coming back at night. They were well fed and well looked after, they didn’t have a lot to worry about.

No very little and yet when I was in the Middle East I picked up quite bit of Arabic.

I could converse with the Arabs and so forth to a certain extent. I seemed to have lost it all now. You know meet them and say, “Giv hala must sul ildham til Allah.” Which is hello, how are you, thanks be to God. Quite a bit and I could count in Arabic, but it is gone now. I was only twenty and

able to pick things up quite quickly then.

I can always remember that part, because if I met an Arab now I would say the same thing to them.

Yes because when Phyllis and I were first married we went straight into a newsagency in Ellwood. And

we had customers there that were Arabic and they would come into the shop, two women who I got quite friendly with later, came in and they said, “Oh they have got much here we will go down to the Village Bell at St Kilda.” And I could just pick up enough to know what they were saying. And I said, “Oh you won’t see much more down at the Village Bell at St Kilda.”

And they were astounded. I really couldn’t converse in it but I could pick up bits and pieces. And from that day on they became very good customers. One of them in particular was very friendly. She was an odd customer. She was well on in age and she would bring little things into the shop for us,

one thing or another. Kalittles was their name and they were into clothing or something. We were in the shop there for eleven years and our three children were born there and we used to have to work very solid hours, we thought we will get a solid business like this in the country, and we applied for

so many and never got them. Eventually forty-five years ago we got one in Warrigal here, we were in Ellwood for eleven years and we were in the one up here for thirty odd years and then we retired from there. This is nothing to do with war, do you want to hear it?

And while we were in the business here at Warrigal I bought a farm and we built a house on it, a new house and we were quite happy there and we lived in that for thirty-five years and I bought this house we are in now about twenty-five years ago and when we sold the farm just two years ago we had all of this remodelled and moved in here.

So we have been retired sixteen years now. But we stayed on the farm until two years ago, and we have really only been living in this particular house for a little over twelve months. We moved in on the 1st of April last year. Nothing to do with the war is it?

Well you get the shakes quite a lot and quite high fevers. You know there is something wrong with you but at that particular time you didn’t know what it was. (interruption) Phyllis there is the phone.

She might be down,

She’ll make it, if you don’t quite make it they leave a message. She has got there.

Yes I was very fortunate that that’s all I got. You don’t know how you come through these things, some do, some don’t, so we were pretty lucky.

Oh yes it is horrific

but it is all fading from the memory now.

No I don’t.

I have seen snippets of it.

Where the chap is being helped along, his sight is gone and he has got a big stick, someone is guiding him . I have seen photos and things like that of the campaign. Another fellow that was very close to me and he used to live in Caulfield was Jimmy Hayes and he got killed in the midst of everything on the Kokoda Track.

You know I know this fellow I was telling you about didn’t know what to do and his arm was all shot to pieces that went into the jungle to disappear. He was actually a fellow from Perth. See we were mainly a Victorian regiment but as re-enforcements came in they came from all over Australia, a lot came from Perth.

And it was mainly Western Australia and Victoria. I know there were a few New South Wales, different re-enforcements were from different states. But the battalion itself originally and most of the re-enforcements in the early stages were Victorian people.

Some of them did. Some of them stayed on for a while but eventually it was only the 2/14th that was in the midst of meeting Japanese and eventually pushing them back. In my own opinion because when we first got there the Japanese didn’t have such a long line of communication from the shore, but as it got further it was harder for them to maintain it.

And then we were in a position to push them back which we did.

Yes they did I would say at a guess at least half way towards

Yes Port Moresby.

Yes we went into the Owen Stanleys, we relieved the 39th and then we started to push the Jap’s back. They really caused so many casualties to our troops. But then as I said this particular night these lights were all across the tracks across the top of the ranges

and it seemed to be endless and we were thinking just how many of them is there. It might have been a move for them to impress us and for us to think my God we’re outnumbered. Actually they were the ones that ended up getting pushed back. You have probably heard all of this before from other people.

Yes and a lot of them are not here to tell us what's what you know.

It must have been a big problem but it seemed to get through somehow or other. As I say early in the campaign we did run out of food and were really hungry until the planes did come and have an air drop.

Dropped provisions for us all to have, enough to carry on with.

No it was after the Blamey speech. I can’t remember exactly how long after, I don’t think it was before but I know we were all

getting pretty desperate. Then as we got over towards the coast the natives used to grow a lot of sweet potatoes and all sorts of vegetables and we could get access to them you could just go and dig them up if you needed them. but I don’t remember any specific occasion where

we didn’t get sufficient food to carry on with, except that time before the air drop. After that we seemed to be okay. Perhaps they kept dropping food there and it got pushed along to us okay.

Yes they carried big bundles on their heads, they were our carriers, they were tremendous. Without them we probably couldn’t have existed.

End of tape

They are not real rugged but they were strong and they could carry the provisions and help the wounded and carry stretchers, really they were invaluable. And it is a rough part of the world isn’t it?

Yes I wondered myself how I was going to manage all of this because it was a real struggle to even

climb up there and carry all of this and the ground as you tried to walk up these ridges was so slushy. If it hadn’t have been for these sticks across it held together with stakes, so that you could get a grip you wouldn’t have been able to do it. Anyway we did it and as I say unfortunately not

everybody came back. Some came back in a bad state. And it is a terrible thing to say but sometimes you think well the fellows that got killed they are out of it all now, they are at peace, they are finished and we had to struggle on.

No I have dismissed a lot of it, not dismissed it has faded from my memory, I don’t dwell on it or think about it much at all. What's past is past.

You can’t relive any of it can you? But we’re all in the RSL [Returned and Services League] we’re all war veterans and we’re all getting on and we’re all going one by one. We had a funeral last week

of a very nice fellow called Ted Suckling and he had a lot of war experience and so on. He was eighty-eight and I will be eighty-four next month. And we’re all getting to the end of our tether. But you have got to make the most of what you can, every day is a bonus isn’t it?

Yeah a field hospital.

Over towards what's the name of the? You know?

It was somewhere near Port Moresby. And I don’t remember I suppose we were flown home from there, I don’t know how we got from there to Heidelberg. But I was in the field hospital in New Guinea and after that I was in hospital at Heidelberg.

Yes. But who was left all came back and was discharged. Oh no quite a few of them went to a couple of the other islands over there, you might have heard of it in your experience, there it something ‘Papan [?] or?.

Some of the islands there. In the all of the Americans were there too.

No it was down in the South Pacific. There is a couple of very important sea battles there, some of our battalion went into those campaigns later I am sure.

See I am getting a bit of dementia I am afraid I can’t remember what I should.

Yes and then I was sent to Myrtleford to the Italian prisoner of war camp.

It was fairly quick. I am trying to think of the tablets you take for malaria.

Yeah lots and lots of quinine, they dose you up against malaria even though you might have traces of it still, I can still if I get particularly

chilled when I am getting undressed to go to bed I get the shakes you know? But not often but I can get them and they are really severe and I think that’s an aftermath of malaria. You might still have a little trace of it in your system years later I don’t know. Anyhow. They were very minor things to have weren’t they?

Well Phyllis that’s another story. We sort of drifted apart and she had kept all of my letters and if she only still had it, it would be like a diary for me because every letter would say where I was and what I was doing and so forth but she sort of went her way and I went mine and I don’t know what made her do it but she burnt all of the letters.

And then we run into each other in Bourke Street outside the post office one day and it all started again and we got married soon after that and I put in for this newsagency in Ellwood and I was very fortunate just a chain of circumstances that I got it because they were very hard to get. The newsagency board had control of everything and they said who went

here and who went there. And because I was applying all of the time they said, “You can go to this one in West Melbourne in Spencer Street.” And I said, “Good that will do me.” And I went up and had a look at the premises, it was a fairly big building with this shop in it and it was owned by Adams Tractors. And the headquarters was in

I think it was Collins Street and I went down to see the managing director about the tenancy of the place and he said, “Do not touch that business we are going to demolish that building shop and all. You are a returned serviceman and I would hate to see you go in there because in a little while you wouldn’t have a business.” And I went back to the newsagency

board and told them that and said that the chap at Adams Tractors had said that it won’t be there for long, so they said, “We will have to find you another one. “and even though there was a lot of people put in for this one at Elwood because of the experience I had with this one in West Melbourne I was put at the top of the list. And some of them, especially the ones selling it said, “How did you ever get it?” and I said, “I don’t know just selected to get it.”

So that was a very fortunate thing for us because we worked hard and we made quite a success of it. we had three children at the time while we were there .and then we came up to Warrigal and then our business prospered up there and we have been very fortunate in that respect.

1948

and we came to Warrigal 1959. we have been here forty-five years this month, we came in May. And we have been out of business now for sixteen years last July, so it is seventeen years next July since we retired. And I was sixty-seven

and Phyllis was sixty-six and I said, “I don’t want to retire I want to” and she said, “We’re retiring that’s it!” and it was a good move. What would have been the point of going on and we have had a nice retirement.

That’s right.

Um well it was just a guard battalion to guard prisoner of war. If it had a name I don’t remember it. Colonel Chisholm was in charge of it. and major, I can’t remember his name was in charge of the group that took the

prisoners back. It was a battalion to guard the prisoners of war that’s all. Probably people like me, B class not fit enough to go back to the front or anything.

Well I was discharged in 46

so it would have been 45 that I went back to Italy and the Middle East with these prisoners of war.

I can’t remember I think it would have been after that because I was in the Middle East for quite a while and then

we were in New Guinea, it could have been a matter of under twelve months perhaps.

Yeah well that’s when I would have come back end of ‘42.

No it wasn’t that long I don’t think.

I would have thought it was twelve months at the most, it might have been a bit longer. But that was my war experience.

Well at a guess I would say it was about six mile out of Myrtleford with very picturesque country but it got very cold

in the winter, and the frosts up there were so thick and the frost would lay on the ground until midday if they were in the shade of the hill or something, if the sun didn’t get on them the fronts would still be there at midday, of course if you were on the sunny side it went early. I know there was one place where you went out to the camp and it had a big steep hill and that

sent the shadow on this ground and the frost would just lay there until midday so it was cold.

Good, just ordinary military barracks like a hut with bunks along each side, fellows along each side. They were a nice lot of chaps. We

were fairly well looked after and we got leave to go into Myrtleford. And I can’t remember but I suppose we got leave to go back to Melbourne occasionally. After a certain time you would get a week off or something, anyhow it all worked out quite well.

Oh yes.

I went to a dance every time I could, they used to have dances in the hall there, in the Myrtleford hall and that was my recreation whenever I got the opportunity to do it.

Yes and that’s why Phyllis and I were, sort of drifted apart a bit.

But it came to nothing.

Yes. A very nice girl too. And Phyllis and I got married and when this girls sister got married in Melbourne they had a very big wedding and Phyllis and I were guests there. We are all very friendly and everything.

Very much so. Oh well. That’s life isn’t it?

Oh yes. I can’t remember how long I was there now. It must have been at least twelve months, but you say it was longer?

Well when the bomb dropped in Hiroshima because we had left Myrtleford and were half way across the Indian Ocean when that happened and that ended the Japanese war but the European War had ended long before that.

Yeah so

that’s when we were going back to Italy in ‘45. So I mightn’t have got up to Myrtleford until about ‘43. Doesn’t matter does it?

Yeah but we don’t really know what year I was in the repat hospital do we? Phyllis will know. She will know when she was at the Heidelberg camp at the grammar school. she was in the signals there learning the signals. But she will have a story to tell you about that too about how she was to go to Darwin

and Darwin was bombed just before she was to go and that was all cancelled.

Yes but I went to

Royal Park and was discharged in 1946. I have got the discharge there in the drawer and Phyllis has got her discharge there, how many days we served in Australia, how many days we served outside of Australia. She didn’t serve outside of Australia see so she is not really returned.

That was the discharge centre where you went and they gave you your papers and so forth and said, “Well tah tah. You’re out of the army”

I think I was discharged I am only guessing in January 46. You know it was early in the year I think.

I have got no idea. I should know but I really don’t know. I think I was allowed home leave, I lived at home. I think I just went out there to get my discharge. I am

I never went to any other camp or anything.

Indian. I think I have got my oceans right, you know the one when you leave Perth and go to Africa that’s the Indian Ocean isn’t it?

So we left Perth and were half way towards the Suez Canal

and we got word war was over, they dropped the bomb Hiroshima, there was tow bombs dropped wasn’t there, whichever one was dropped first that ended the war like and we knew then everything was over.

Yes we were but they didn’t take any guarding.

They were very placid sort of people, they didn’t want any hostilities ort anything. They weren’t war like .and they had a very nice time in Myrtleford. They used to go out and work on the farms and that and come in for their accommodation at night in the camp which is all barbed wire around them and everything. But they were quite comfortable. And it

wasn’t as though, if they were prepared to go out and work on the farms they were allowed to do it. So it was all right.

Basked in the sun on deck. Strolled around and we didn’t have any specific duties to do.

Just had to keep an eye that the Italian prisoners were behaving themselves and kept to their section sort of thing. Otherwise it was very relaxing.

Yes but we didn’t need it. We just had our rifles.

Occasionally, my old man was a gambler he used to play two up. He

had quite a bit of fun I think in his own way, especially when he got amongst the old and the bold. They were all older chaps and they knew how to fill the time in.

Oh some of those little snaps yeah.

One of them is in Haifa or don’t think it was in Jerusalem. It was in one of those towns anyhow. Tel Aviv it might have

been I am not sure. See he got put in his place and I got put, we didn’t see each other much after we got to the Middle East.

It probably was yes.

No I think he was only twenty-two when I was born so he was only twenty-two years older than me. So when I turned twenty he would only be about forty-two. So that’s why he was accepted in the army I suppose, I don’t know what age was the cut off, about forty-five I think.

Yes it was. See going to the Middle East I was on the Queen Mary I know I was on the Isle d’ France I was on the City of Paris. We were on the City of Paris coming back from the Middle East to go to Singapore but before we got to Singapore we were

diverted down to Perth and then we came around to Melbourne and I think that was on the Isle d’ France or the City of Paris. I know it had something to do with France. So I was on a few different troop ships with a few different names. And the one we went to New Guinea on was one of these might be Liberty ships or something, the Americans had a

method of building them very quickly and they were used quite a bit for troop ships and I think that was the type of ship we went to New Guinea in. Didn’t do much air travel. That wasn’t available to the troops in those days.

No there was some missionaries and other people that had a priority for travel, you know to go back to Europe or the Middle East because we went through the Suez Canal. Some people disembarked there and when we got to Naples

that’s where we disembarked and quite a few of the passengers disembarked there. But then there would be quite a number still on board that went onto Britain. If we had have gone on to Britain we would have probably had a much better time and wouldn’t have cared how long it took to get back to Australia. As it was we got off and then we couldn’t get transport anywhere.

It was up to this major that was in charge of us and he said, “We’ll all get off at Naples and have a good time.” And we found that we did have a good time in Naples and when we left Italy whatever Lira we had there was no way of putting it back into our own money and I bought that photo there of the cavaliers

the woman waiting on them off a street vendor just rolled up and when I got back my mother had it framed, but I don’t think she should have put glass on it, I think it should have been left because it is an oil. And it is quite good, it has got a signature on it. Mightn’t be worth two bob but it might be you never know. But that’s my souvenir of Naples.

No its coloured. The light is, before you go we will put the lights on. Because when the children were young they would say, “That’s Mummy.” Because it looked like Phyllis the woman in it.

Well there was a ship going across to Egypt well actually the ship goes to Alexandria which is the port and Cairo was I don’t know how many, an hour or two away from there. And then we went to Cairo and we were put into camp there until we could get transport back to Australia. And I can’t for the life of me remember the ship we came back, that might have been

the City of Paris that we came back from the Middle East to Perth on. We were there for quite a while and that’s when I had the opportunity to go up to Beirut and have another look at Beirut, went up by train and you go right up the coast. It is a very nice trip up there. But I was only probably away from camp four or five days at the most. We weren’t under any jurisdiction.

We just had to be there when any transport became available to take us back to Australia. But we were all glad to come home anyhow.

The only military personnel over there were the New Zealanders and they had priority. We were only the blow ins that had gone over with the prisoners. They had been over there fighting and they had priority on any travel coming back this way. They were it, they were given the priority. And that why we were there for a while, eventually they all got transported

home and we came home.

Well see those campaigns were well over. I think some of them were in Italy. And they used to say to us, “You have got no hope, the New Zealanders plenty of them here and they have got priority on travel.”

So they were the last of the New Zealanders to come back from Europe.

Run out of talk.

Well sad to say a lot of them didn’t make it.

And the ones that did come back, Jack Creer from Geelong and Ken Dagwood from Tasmania. I don’t think Jack Creer is still living and I wouldn’t think, because they would be perhaps four or five years older than me and I will be eighty-four next month. So they would be really getting old now if they’re still alive.

Yes one of them was named Hoy, his father was an accountant in Melbourne and when we first went into business in Ellwood I looked him up and he was taking accounts

for himself and I got him to do our books all of the time we were in Elwood. But when we came to Warrigal we got a local to do our books because it was so much easier than having someone in Melbourne, we could have someone right next door to us to do all of our book work and accountancy for us. So I lost track of him. they were living in Brighton

and I did hear from him a couple of times. He was married with a few children. None of the chaps that went over to Italy with us were real close friends of mine. The one that came up to Beirut with me I got on with quite well.

But as I say they were all a bit older than me and I don’t think they would be with us now. But I have got a lot of chaps here that are in the RSL that I keep in contact with and see quite often. One of them I never struck him in the war or anything, but he went to school with me in Tooronga Road.

And now he is in the same RSL as I am and I am in Probus and one day I had to do something and I said, “I went to Tooronga Road Central School.” And this woman a couple of seats away said, “Oh I went to school there too.” So you strike people that you come across perhaps in

years gone by.

Yes I do. And Phyllis does too. I am just a member but she is on the committee and our branch here is a small branch in away, we have no poker machine, we have no commercial

or anything but there is about a hundred and twenty of us and we are a very close group and we are just an RSL club. Not like the big clubs that have meals and pokie machines and all of that. I think its good because you all keep together and in contact.

We have a monthly meeting, the first Monday of every month. We go on trips occasionally, not a great deal. We have two dinners of all members twice a year and we have a welfare committee that has quite a bit of money put aside

to help anyone in difficulties or who is sick or they can’t drive their car. They can have a taxi and book it up. We have an excellent secretary and a wonderful president who are real dedicated men who do everything they can for the RSL. That’s a big help for us all.

What is the time?

Yeah I am happy.