Australians at War Film Archive

Yes. My family migrated from Scotland, from Glasgow in 1914, I was born in August 1920.

My early childhood was very family orientated really, but the Depression years hit our family rather hard because my father went totally deaf, and there were plenty of people could not get a job in those days. So my mother went into a business and through ill health she had to sell that,

and unfortunately never got paid. So that was sign of the times in those days. That had a graphic affect on my life but in those days you survived. In 1933 a cousin bought a property, he was a chemist in Euroa; he bought a property near Avenel called, a little locality called Monea.

We went up there on the property, very pleasant life, there was always plenty of food, but very little money, but we survived. And I, eventually through circumstances, virtually became the manager at a very early age. And life on the farm, was a period you had to be very innovative

in doing a lot of things because money wasn’t plentiful. But in 1939, when war was declared, I decided to go into the air force. And that was a real culture change, really, living virtually alone and going back, I had to ride the bike five miles to school, five

miles back, but that was no problem really, kept you fit. But managing the property was traumatic in some respects. I was a light weight, I didn’t weigh more than ten stone in the old terms in those days and, but it made you very, very strong. But then joining the air force, as I said, was a

bit of a culture shock.

I was thirteen.

In Melbourne.

In Moreland, actually. And I went to Moreland State School in those days, but then moving up to Monea it was different, enjoyed the country life,

should’ve been a farmer probably, but marriage dictates that nowadays.

It was genetic I think, the passage, air passage between the nose and the ear collapsed. That could be an easy situation

today, but in those days it just wasn’t possible with what was available, surgery-wise. Yeah.

Yes, my father was a specialist in the paper industry, with then Redmond Ingles, as it was, now long defunct. But he was,

he inherited that from early childhood in Scotland and coming out here. My mother in that early period went up to Toolleen, it’s in central Victoria and was with friends of the family which sponsored them to come out in those early days. They came out on the steamship [SS] Benalla.

Not that I know of, no. There was an uncle, he worked for an English subsidiary of Blomm & Voss, I think it was Blomm & Voss.

It was on the periscopes or submarines, that’s the only involvement that I know of, no service background. But of course, cousins later on were in the services.

Well we didn’t have a cricket bat but my father made one out of a piece of wood,

and that was the norm in those days. School was just opposite, discipline was tight but not oppressive and they were very formative years, as far as I was concerned anyway. And then I went to East Brunswick Primary School and then

to South West Brunswick and then up to, up the country.

Oh yes, very much so, very much so.

Well, it was a struggle because my mother’s business was opposite Moreland school, virtually relied on pennies. And

it wasn’t, it was profitable but not over profitable, but she had to give it away because of ill health, and course that changed the course of life again.

It was a mixed business, relying on school books, and as I said, and pennies really. Yeah.

No, relied entirely on the business, as it was in those days, very small. So there was tough times.

Oh, that was alright,

there wasn’t much extra left over after the basics, like rent. And well, in the early days we did not even have power, but that was rectified late ‘20’s.

Oh, there was a lot of integration because most people were in the same boat. And my mother went to community singing in Coburg Town Hall. The odd visit to the pictures, cinema or whatever, but outside that, not very much. As a matter of fact, for books, after school I had to go into town to pick

them up because it was only a penny in and a penny back to do that, therefore it was cheaper, in other words you saved pennies virtually. A lot of other people didn’t have that really. They were on the sustenance as it was called then, which was not very much.

Yes, there were not, in those days, much in the way of gardens or anything like that to look after, and that’s about all I can remember really. The kids made their own whatever, yeah.

No, I was the only one.

Well, on occasions we got the strap, but it didn’t worry us unduly, and there was always a teacher in the school yard at lunch time and breaks. But

I never struck bullying at all and I think that was due to mainly everybody was in the same boat basically. No there, it was very pleasant at school really and even more so when I went to school in Avenel. Some people, some children arrived by horse, mostly on bikes or just walked. But

four teachers to about eighty pupils there, but in town it was one to a class sort of thing, because of the numbers, but there was a diversity of ages at Avenel. But no, it was quite good. We could spell and we didn’t have a calculator, we knew our tables and

still do.

Oh yes, used to go down to Merri Creek. I can remember playing football and Merri Creek is very black clay, and not very conducive to playing football, in the winter time anyway.

But cricket in the street, there were parks available near Moreland station but we didn’t seem to go there very much.

Oh course, Don Bradman and Ponsford [cricketers], who of course was a teacher I think, and Jack Baggot of Richmond [Australian Rules football club]

in those days. Many will come to mind later I would say, but at the moment they were about the three that I can remember.

No, not really. When footy was on in Coburg you could hear the roar of the crowd of course, but I never went to any association

football or league football as it was then, never. You had to pay.

That occurred, up the country in those days, there were plenty of rabbits around and I did have a ferret.

And that was mainly to get rabbits to feed the dogs, but when we got a nice rabbit, about once a week I would say. Very interesting times really, looking back.

Well mainly a stew of chops and

occasionally corned beef, which we still have here actually, even last night. Yeah, moving on from there up to the country, I think that was a whole new life, it was very pleasant in a way, we had a very, very good house and I can remember droughts,

particularly about 1935, and then 1939, were pretty severe. But other than that, we ran mainly sheep, it was a fifteen hundred acre property so it was fairly large. I learned to drive at thirteen, fourteen on an old Model T Ford and a Bean truck.

A Bean, B-E-A-N , it was an English truck but when I went for my licence eventually in Avenel, I had to drive the constable down to the highway and go back later. But he knew that I’d been driving for all those years because I went to school with his kids. The trucks were unregistered,

because it, nobody worried in those days. But I used to sneak into Avenel and just leave it outside if we went swimming in Hughes Creek, I had the bike on the back so I rode to the, course they have a swimming pool now.

Yes.

Yes. Learned, apart from the Model T, it was a Buick

Six, 1924 model, and then later on a very flash Oldsmobile, but that was just before the war. Petrol was about, a little over a shilling a gallon and that used to come out from Seymour in forty-four gallon drums. We did have a huge McCormick Deering tractor.

In the clay soil in the winter time, if you didn’t get it in, it usually got bogged because it weighed about three ton. And being young, that didn’t worry us very much, just got by the best way you could.

It was a cousin of mine who actually was the chemist in Euroa.

But he was a very good veterinarian, made sheep drenches for liver flu, if it didn’t cure them it killed them, but they’re much more sophisticated these days.

He had a brother managing

at that stage but he wanted to go back up to New South Wales, so George Speirs was virtually left, in the lurch so that’s why we carried on there. It suited my father, he was very perceptive, and though he was deaf, he could perceive things, virtually before they happened. ‘Course he

wasn’t so old in those days.

We never

dug fence post holes but we used to do the fencing and that suited him because he knew exactly what to do without, you know, having to be told, and I think it suited him down to the ground. He never seemed to worry about anything, he just took life as it came. Used to annoy my mother.

And of course, shearing time she had to look after the food for the shearers, only two of them of course, but it was always very busy times.

Oh well, it improved dramatically, yes. I think it was really worry that was the problem. With a lot of people

then too.

He could lip read a little bit, not very good at it but with us he could because we used to speak directly, but picking up other people was a bit of a difficulty.

Oh no,

no not at all. And of course, when we went on the property that’s the first time in our life that we had a telephone, because most people in the city didn’t in those, that era, but we had to have the phone really because of isolation. Another interesting thing, there was a station in those days, it was unmanned, and to stop certain trains

you held out a red flag, and he saw it and he stopped. And course, it was on the main line, the Melbourne-Albury line. And oh, we ran well over three hundred turkey’s as well as... and on one occasion I can remember them all, the turkey’s roam, and they perched along the railway station, and of course a goods train went through

and the turkeys flew everywhere, but they didn’t get hit or anything like that. We used to heavily top dress with superphosphate. ‘Course that came up from Geelong in railway trucks, and with the vehicle, the truck, which was equipped to spread it. I can remember doing a hundred and twenty acres a day transporting the superphosphate from

the station directly on to the paddock. So that was quite a thing in those days.

To bring the grass on, fertiliser, that’s what it was. Oh, we grew wheat, oats, and sowed sub clover, which was not heard of very much in those days. So I became

very innovative in repairing things, and if we didn’t have a nut and bolt we used wire, which was not unusual in those days either.

Oh well, repair and oil changes and things like that were all...

Nobody told me I just learned the hard way, but we got by, no trouble.

Oh yes, yes, down the swimming pool at Avenel and at school too. As a matter of fact when I joined the air force my number was 1-0-4-

5-2, and Bill Saunders, who still lives in Avenel actually, he was 1-0-4-5-1. But we didn’t know that we were going to enlist that day, it’s just a strange thing. Noel Burgoyne, I see Noel regularly at the RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force] Europe dinners. He lives in Seymour now, and a few others round about the place.

Yes, oh yes.

In Avenel, in Avenel, yes. On the memorial in London actually, it’s misspelled as A-V-O-N-E-L instead of A-V-E-N-E-L.

I think it was more relaxed really. Once again there was no sports equipment supplied

at all. I don’t know where it came from but it was there. Winters could be a bit severe, course there was no made roads except the highway in those days, they were all gravel. They’re all made now or most of them are. Yes, that’s about

all I can remember there.

Yes.

Well from about early 1935 right up until 1940. Joining the air force created a bit of a furore.

Yes, yes, we were there on our own, right through the week, but

all the bookwork was done by my cousin. We, but ordering fuel and things like that was just left to us, and make sure the stock were well catered for. That’s, basically, what it was. Water was never in the right place, so I cut a hole in the floor of the truck, put an inch and a half centrifugal pump up on top

driven by a belt off the back wheel, which you jacked up, and a tank on the truck and took it where it was required. These are the things, funny things we did.

Oh yes, yeah, just thought it up. ‘Course with the large diameter wheel, the truck had only to idle and it put out a fair head of water. Laying pipes, there was no plastic pipe, it was all steel pipe in those days,

and we did all that. Finding water, couldn’t go very deep but we’d get a soak, which kept things going for a while. And then the creek used to flood during the winter time and that used to fill up the dams and things like that. But having the big tractor in those days made things very easy, in a way, but we

maintained that. And, you know, diesel engines for the pump and driving the shearing machinery, course there was no electric in those days, electricity to do anything. To bore a hole in steel you did it with a little hand brace, probably took you about half a day to do it, but we got by.

Yes, oh yes, it was, as I said earlier, it was quite a pleasant life really, hard work. Hard work’s never killed anybody.

The end of 1934. I was to go on and do the secondary education but that was not to be because I was required, and

couldn’t argue.

You didn’t in those days. We did have a radio but that was about the night occupation was that, listening to the radio.

Well it was

mainly 3SR Shepparton really because you couldn’t pull in the Melbourne stations, there just was not enough power and that was the main one, so we were limited to that. Whatever they did with their soapies [serial drama programs], they weren’t called soapies in those days. Yes, so that was my life on the farm really, until it was thankfully interrupted

by the war in one way, changed direction.

Well, we had the paper delivered by mail every day and that came up from Melbourne. And the train came in around about ten o'clock so you went and picked up your mail, and the paper was

there. But that was about the fullest extent of, and the radio, the news. But it wasn’t a great deal of overseas... what was going on. I can remember listening to the, I think about the 1934 Berlin Games, the Olympic Games in Berlin. Can’t remember much about major

things world wide. But ‘course my mother used to get letters from the ‘old country,’ as it was known then, and a little bit of news but not much in the political area at all from over there, it was all family news.

Oh, it wasn’t, I can’t really say that we ever got into any major problems, might nick a bit of fruit from a fruit tree if it was grown, but that was about the extend of it. I cannot remember any vandalism or anything like that. No, it was

the… ‘Course in Brunswick and Coburg in those days the police kept a very watchful eye, they rode around on big, black bicycles and it was mainly dealt with on the spot, any problem, they didn’t come back for more. Won’t say any more.

I think so, I think so, and it worked.

And that comes back to a form of discipline which worked. ‘Course not allowed to do that these days. Teachers in those days were very co-operative, you know. Family wise if there were problems, they seemed to be able to have the ability to handle it. And

I’ve never known of any child being expelled or sent home for any reason, never occurred, that I could remember anyway, which was good.

I think so, yes. Little bit of discipline has never done anybody any harm, I

don’t think.

Oh no, a little bit came from my mother but not very much. There was never any major problem in that area, that I can remember anyway. And from what I can remember of other families, it was basically about the same.

I never saw any but I did hear, there were some in Coburg, and of course I can remember the name Squizzy Taylor, and

there were a little bit. But ‘course, police in those days were not quite as mobile as they are today and they did have radios in the car, usually big Daimler’s from what I can remember, soft tops, you know, no sides or anything like that, not as comfortable. Trams and

transport, I can’t remember any rubbish being left on the floor or anything like that. They did have conductors but he mainly, all he had to do was take fares. I can’t remember anybody, fare evasion or anything of that nature. And ‘course they were mainly cable trams in those days, particularly from Moreland Road, Brunswick into the city, before it was

electrified. But further on in Coburg, that went down through East Brunswick with the electric tram.

Oh yeah, as far as I can remember, yes. Today children seem to have more to occupy

them but there seems to be a great deal of trouble. Never heard of drugs going back in those times. Oh, people didn’t even have the money for alcohol for example.

No, no, there

wasn’t really. I can remember kids were very respectful, and no, never had any trouble at all. None. ‘Course there was, you had to close, I think it was six o'clock but the door was open with the lights off after hours, but no inspectors

came around, didn’t worry them too much.

Oh well, before doing anything I had to milk two cows,

and morning and night, always did that, you know, for about five-odd years. There was a little bit of, if anybody wanted any help, we were always available, sort of thing. Social life, there was some of the ladies, you know, afternoon tea sort of thing, but that was about the full extent.

And they, most of them had to walk unless they were dropped off by a vehicle of some description.

Yeah, yeah, somebody would say they’re coming or they were invited, didn’t even have to be invited. In those days we used to get the swaggies, quite a lot of them. Mainly they would offer to

cut some wood or do something, they always got a sandwich but they didn’t have to cut any wood. And ‘course, in those days they were jumping the rattler, that was bumming a ride on the goods trains. And I can remember opening a tarp on the superphosphate and there’d be somebody in there; of course it’d get very hot in the summer time, but

they just got out and wandered on their way. And there were quite a few of them came around too, not every day, but probably once a week or so. And ‘course, pre war we were not far from Seymour army camp and there was always somebody out on manoeuvres of some description, which brightened up the social side of things.

Oh, you know, if they’d call somewhere near, I always used to go down and have a look and have a talk with them. I did try to join the army at one stage when they were calling for volunteers for Darwin, it would be about 1937-38, but I was knocked back, they only wanted five hundred anyway.

It did, yes, and course, not far from Puckapunyal, you could hear the guns when they were practising.

I think looking for a little bit of adventure, really. And it

eventually came in 1940.

Yes, I did

Well the impact was I think, what’s the world coming to? Really, because

the horrors of the First World War drifted through, you know, the trenches in France and things like that. And, ‘course there was rapidly becoming more mechanised, and technology had advanced. And I always had an inkling for the air force

and flying because Reg Ansett’s Electra aircraft used to fly over at night, just to, well, about nine o'clock I think it was, on it’s way to Broken Hill. And I always used to watch that and, but I’d never had much to do with aircraft in those days. Although Essendon wasn’t very far when we were living in Moreland, but

to get there was a bit of a hassle, you either had to walk or be taken there but it never occurred to get there. So when the opportunity came I filled in the paper work, sent it off and eventually heard about it, weeks later, secret trip to Melbourne and went through all the process, went back and eventually

got called up. And broke the news to my cousin and created a little bit of a problem.

Yes, there was Mr Starling, he was in his eighties, he lived on his own and he was very active. And I thought, if I ever make eighty I wonder if I’ll be as active as he is. And course of, war interrupted that, and I lost track of how long he lived for. But

he’s a remarkable old man, nice to talk to, and came back... “Oh the way we did it in the olden days,” sort of thing, it was quite interesting. But he was a real character, as a few of the older generation were really, came through tough times as well as, yep.

They were, yes. Oh, up around the property, the old corduroy roads, they were timber laid to stop the timber trucks when they were taking the timber out from getting bogged, taking it to the railway siding. Interesting times, they were still there. You find that in Tasmania too, some of the ship launching with the huon pine,

been there for a hundred years, or more.

No. Interesting you mention that, Ned Kelly went to Avenel school, State School Number Eight, and I believe one of the Kelly’s are in

Avenel Cemetery. But nobody knew anything much about it. ‘Course he robbed the bank in Euroa, Jerilderie, and of course, Glenrowan, of course, where they roamed quite extensively into, up into Strathbogie. So no, we didn’t... Ned Kelly was known but not revered

as much as sometimes it comes through today.

Mmm.

Yes, yes, that’s right, yes. Interesting times. How thoughts change.

Starling, yeah.

No, not really. Most of them are all passed on now, of course. And, but I mentioned Noel Burgoyne, his father worked for C.T. Gadd, a general store, and he used to come around by horse and jinker and take the orders that were delivered later. And, as I mentioned, I still see Noel

at the RAAF Europe dinners once a year. Yeah, that’s about all I can remember. There were characters around Avenel, from the early days.

Euroa was the largest one or Seymour, and of course Nagambie. I’d heard of Chateau Tahbilk

but never got there, never had the money to buy anything anyway. So...

Yes, oh we managed, you know, we took hay off and that saw us through. We used to buy in lucerne and

never made very much money in those days. I think a lot of it was inherited and if you inherited money you were pretty right, but most of all it was hard work. But never became a real problem.

Yes for drenching for liver flu.

I think the ingredient was carbon tetrachloride, and it worked, it worked. But much more sophisticated these days.

No, no I wasn’t, no, no I wasn’t. Used it of course, and well, of course in those days we had

footrot in sheep, that had to be attended to. There’s always some little problem, always cropping up, when you get on one, on top of one, another one took its place. Cattle, they kept getting out occasionally, go and look for them. Not that I can remember there was any rustling went on,

no doubt it did but only small, because there wasn’t the vehicles to get them away quickly, as they have now.

Oh yes, yes, very much.

Oh, that was alright. We’d, I can remember one puppy broke a leg and I just put it in splints and that got better.

He’s an amazing dog. We used to dink him on the bike, he used to sit on the top bar and the two legs on the angle bar, and he used to love it, and he used to jump up. Now they ride on the back of a motor bike, but he used to ride in the front, two feet up on the handle bar. Preferred that to walking.

Oh, around about thirteen, fourteen hundred.

Oh it, oh well you learned fast, you had to. And you were virtually on your own and had to make the decisions.

Lambing time of course is always a problem, crows, there was always plenty of rabbits around, and fox. We get foxes here. Yeah, that’s about all I can think of up there.

No, no, never got, I think I wrote a letter, that was... whether we got a reply I can’t remember. But I always knew there was

a big world outside and I thought I’d like to see a bit more.

Oh yes, it did. Yes, I think I applied early in November, December, it was about May before I was interviewed and then there was a little period, I think, about a month. And I had never been out of

Victoria until I joined the air force, down to Melbourne then over to Adelaide.

Yes, oh yes, yeah.

The Lockheed Electra.

I thought,

‘course flying was just coming into vogue just before the war and it had a great attraction I think, just one of those things. I went in to the air force as ground staff and it wasn’t till I got to the UK [United Kingdom] that I changed to air crew. But I didn’t go through the Empire Air [Training] Scheme at all,

and there were a lot of anomalies in there. For example, we only got two shillings a day extra, crew pay, but only when we flew, that was rectified and a few other things. And I started flying as a corporal until we got acting rank of sergeant in case the remote chance we were prisoners of war. All these

things were fixed up eventually.

Yes, yes.

Never occurred again in my life.

No. Nah.

Well,

I didn’t have the opportunity really. I didn’t have the opportunity, I just wanted to get in, regardless of what it was. And I went in as a, I think it was called trainee tech and I went over to Adelaide to number four school, technical training and then back over to the showgrounds,

and ended up as a fitter 2A, ground staff.

I think there was an element of that, but I don't think it was particularly strong, there’s

a sense of adventure. And it’s a little bit different with us being ground staff in the UK. We’re at the sharp end of things and we saw the problems, whereas a lot that went through the Empire Air Scheme didn’t know what they were letting themselves in for, but few of us did. And

on my interview I mentioned, you know, with Channel Nine, that I can remember one fellow coming back with half his jaw missing, but he was still alive, it sticks in your mind. Our losses were fairly considerable, and course Diana was in the operations room typing the briefs and call signs on rice paper, so she knew what was going

on too.

In Plymouth, on the base, or they called it stations then. And yes, so...

Well, being thrown in with so many men in those days, I can remember a bit of a culture shock. We were based in the old exhibition building in Adelaide, it’s now long gone, but we were packed in there and you know, getting to showers which were not,

couldn’t cope really. But I got into the habit of showering at night rather than in the morning, because it was just chaotic. Food was always very good, and life wasn’t too bad really. Got a little bit of discipline, from a different angle

to what I had been used to. No, it was quite good. Going in at an early stage, I think it took about six weeks to get a uniform, but that didn’t worry us unduly. We slept on, like a cyclone gate with a

palliasse full of straw which eventually became chaff. And then I can remember I ended up in Northfield Infectious Diseases hospital with mumps, because once one got it, with, crowded in there, it just went through. Colds and things like that were very prevalent, but

didn’t worry us unduly. But that getting the mumps put us back a little bit, just lost people that I went in with and, but that all resolved itself.

Oh yes, yes, that was 100 Queen Street, at the offices there and went through the medical and an interview. Mechanically-wise as I mentioned, I was entirely self taught, and I think that appealed to them really, with the questions they fired at me, and the answers I gave. And if I didn’t know I just said so,

and that also appealed I think. Then back, if I could go on from Adelaide, back to engineering school in the showgrounds, and that was a different world again, and I think I graduated from there in about 1940 I think, or early ‘41, and then down to Point

Cook for twelve months. Got a little bit sick of it there, and a relative by distant marriage was a major in intelligence in the army, he was a First [World] War digger. I went and saw Ted and I said, “Who do you know in the air force?” He said, “Why, what do you want to know?” I said, “I want to get out of Point Cook.” Well, I was out of there within

a couple of weeks, back into the showgrounds, into embarkation depot. And on a Friday I was going to Darwin and issued with all tropical gear. Took it home, Mother washed the dressing out of it and pressed it all up. Went back in on the Monday morning and they said, “You can take that back to the store, you’re not going to Darwin, you’re going to the UK. You gotta get the

blue uniform back again,” or new one. And that was about midday on a Monday and I left for Sydney the next night, and didn’t get back to Melbourne until 1946. There was a delay in Sydney with shipping, the [HMS] Queen Mary was in so we thought, oh, maybe we’re going on that. But we didn’t, we went on a Dutch vessel by the name of Aboisa

Vein [Oranjefontein?]. A modern vessel built by Blohm & Voss in Germany, fortunately, I’ll come to that later. We eventually sailed for New Zealand, had two weeks in New Zealand while it was loaded, it was refrigerated, loaded with lamb and food. And there was a problem in the Pacific with the Japanese in 1942.

We went right away down south, got very cold, then up the coast to South America, through the Panama Canal to New Orleans. We were taken off the vessel because they wanted to put anti aircraft guns, it hadn’t been converted to a troop ship, and it was very comfortable. We were billeted in private homes because

it had to go into dock, and British military attaché arranged private homes and two places where we could eat. But we had been paid in Australia and we were getting a bit short of money by that stage, so sudden hospitality in New Orleans took over to enormous degree. But we weren’t eating

there so somebody, who shall remain nameless, put it to the girl, “If we didn’t eat there, could we sign the docket and you give us the money?” So this was greed upon. I believe Ned Kelly, Bob Menzies and all sorts of people were there and they’ve never caught up with us yet, I don't think they will now. Actually, we were glad to get out of New Orleans really.

But I mentioned that it was a fast vessel, fortunately, because I believe we were supposed to go due east and pick up a convoy off the Azores, but that didn’t take place because a U-boat [German submarine] surfaced and started to chase us. But being a fast vessel we went all the way to Glasgow unescorted.

But that was at the time when the U-boats were getting into the tankers coming out of Texas, and so that was quite interesting. But we had to man the guns, and all we knew about them, they gave us the book, that was a sign of the times again. And...

Yeah, yeah, and we had a bit of practise.

Being a Dutch vessel it was crewed by the Javanese, and they were very good at making kites and they used to make a kite and we used to use it as a target, so once again innovation comes into it. And that happened time after time.

But you made do.

Oh yes. I eventually became an air gunner, but we did have training for that. And I think you may have interviewed Bob Ascar, out in Balwyn.

May have. Well he was our gunnery officer. ‘Course I see Bob

quite often nowadays. In my records they have me arriving in the UK before I left. And they, I think it was about twelve days, whereas it actually took us thirty-five, no, seventy-five days from Sydney to Glasgow, so the records are all wrong. I think there are

a few other things wrong too. But interesting time, then we’re taken off the vessel in Glasgow and straight down to Plymouth. We did not go through the normal procedure of the reception places, which was mainly at Brighton, in the Grand Hotel and I’ve forgotten the name of the other, we didn’t go

near there. That’s because we were not Empire Air Scheme. And I got the...

Yes, yes. We knew where we were going. Straight...

straight to 10 Squadron. We were posted there, therefore we didn’t go near any reception place, this pension was in Brighton,

mainly. And 10 Squadron was unusual in a way, our pilots didn’t come through an operational training unit at all, we carried three and four pilots and they learned on the job. It’s the only way to go, it’s so simple and

more cost effective really. But that again was because we were 10 Squadron. 10 Squadron went to the UK in 1939, before the war, to bring Sunderland flying boats back. And they were kept off, kept there but there was a trade off with, I think, twenty-four Catalinas that were going to the UK, were diverted to Australia.

So, as a matter of fact, Diana’s cousin signed the order for that, which, quite an interesting connection really because he ended up down at Mount Batten with the Royal Air Force of course. But...

It’s cold.

Servicing aircraft.

Well, we had been trained for servicing aircraft which was, with me, it was mainly on Ansons and Airspeed Oxfords.

Pretty boring really. Point Cook in those days, there were no runways, at all. Winter time, they just got bogged, because there were other aircraft down there like Hawker Demons and Wapitis, Westland Wapitis, very, very old aircraft. As a matter of fact, there’s a beautiful Hawker Demon in the museum down at Point Cook,

I don't think it flies now. However, it was an interesting time, we were on shift work, I think one week it was early morning and then the next week was on afternoon. And ‘course, we were based at Point Cook right down on the sea front, and you had to walk the Burma Road, as it was called,

and walk back, you weren’t transported at all, you had to walk, very cold in the winter time. And they were training aircraft, training pilots. And, as a matter of fact, Max Mainprise, my first captain, trained at Point Cook. Interesting characters that we had,

Alan Mann was our navigator. Alan ended up a QC [Queen’s Counsel] and then Sir Alan Mann, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court in New Guinea. Died at an early age unfortunately, but he was quite a character. We were blessed with some characters, Sir Richard Kingsland, who I’ll be seeing at the

end of the month. They took some British politicians down to Rabatt to talk the Vichy French [French who sympathised with their German occupiers] Navy coming over, but he and Con Gearig, his flight engineer, the French put them in jail. But what they did, they forget to take their

38s [weapons] off them and they blasted their way out, commandeered the taxi and ended up with the British foreign minister, I think, and a few others. Got back on board with the French chasing them, firing at them, weaved their way through fishing boats and what not, and got back to Gibraltar. Another character we had was Jacques Hazzard.

Jacques was in Iran and wanted to join the Free French [French who were opposed to their German occupiers], so they, he and another French man pinched an aircraft, flew towards Gibraltar but strayed into Spanish territory, they shot them down and they scrambled over the border. And one of our aircraft was coming through from Malta, picked them up and Jacques liked us, our guys,

and we liked him apparently, so they took him on board, gave him an Australian uniform, but he was never allowed to captain an aircraft. How they paid him, I don't know, but these things can be got around very easily in those days. But Jacques was lost in 1942. We have a very close association with the Australia Malta Association because one of our aircraft

that took General Lord Gort down to Malta with the George Cross in his briefcase. And on the fourth of April, as every year, we have a service with the Australia Malta Association, at their Shelter of Peace in Birdwood Avenue. And there’s also a contingent of ours, and the old guys of 10 Squadron,

and support from RAAF Williams Laverton, and with cadets, and it’s quite a service. So, interesting times.

Oh, with the Sunderland’s that we were going to, none, we just fell into it really, learned on the job. And that’s the best way to learn too. A little bit of theory goes a long way, but it’s the practical things that count.

Well splicing cable for one thing. No, that was done... it was basic engineering, they gave you a worn out old file and you had to make things to a drawing. I’ve still got a lot of those things here. It was more of a

technical nature of, well we didn’t get onto milling machines as such, but virtually made things by hand, in case you had to, and quite frankly it never occurred, never occurred at all. But then the engineering school in the showgrounds, you got working on aircraft and, for

example, hydraulics and, you know, maintaining aircraft, air frames. I didn’t get onto engines there but I did later on. About a twelve week course I think it was, and you sat an exam. Oh, we did theory of flight, for one thing, and

all very interesting, I must say.

Well yes, it was an interesting transformation really, but you had to cope, you had to cope.

And there were never any altercations or problems, you know, integrating with men, which I never had the privilege of, say, serving with scouts or anything like that, it was only school virtually. But I never had any problem with it at all, none whatsoever. Whether some did, I

don’t know, I don't know. I never had any problem with anybody that was bisexual or anything like that, never. Whether it was there, I don't know, I really don’t know, never heard of it.

No, no, I didn’t.

Had my first drink in New Orleans actually and that was a Bacardi and Coke, and I’d never heard of Bacardi at all, and it wasn’t till after the war that it became a little bit popular. But no, that’s an interesting thing with, I mentioned southern hospitality, diverting back to that. We arrived there at New Orleans, went

for a walk and we bumped into an American naval sailor. He had a nice big Cadillac, we’d never seen a Cadillac before, and he took us under his wing and took us around everywhere. So that was New Orleans, and it was an eye opener too.

In New Orleans?

We missed the Mardi Gras and that was being lead by Dorothy Lamour, that was a disappointment. But, no we just got around. Incidentally I ended up with hives there, and that was through sea food virtually. But interesting, John Hicks, we went, we could’ve gone out to the naval base at

Pontchartrain Beach but, the big hospital there, it was about midnight, we wandered in. And you know, clients lined up there, and we just mentioned we came from a long way away and we were ushered in straight away. And a Puerto Rican doctor, he, a couple of injections of adrenaline I think it was,

and that quietened things down. He insisted on taking us on a tour of the hospital, a large, oh, about as large as Royal Melbourne I’d say. And instead of being ushered out of the place, we were there for six hours and I never have drunk so much coffee in all my life. We were star performers really. The nurses heard that we were there and they came around in droves, but we never took advantage of that.

Yes. Yes, of course the American troops were coming out here and it was in the news over there. And we were there and I think they were surprised to see that we were white and we could speak English. As a matter of fact, that did occur. We were asked by an American service man and his girlfriend, how long we’d been there and I said, “A fortnight.”

Well that fazed them completely and I corrected that and said, “Two weeks.” And they said, “Oh you speak, you’ve picked up the language quickly.” Some of these little things stick in your mind really, and among other things which I won’t mention.

Oh yes, the Via Correre, the French Quarter, yes,

very interesting. Even, were amazing to us that, you know, things went on all night, really, there. But, mmm.

No, no. Interesting you mention that, when we were in Christchurch, I met a lass there and well, you know,

we didn’t have much money so I took her down on the vessel down at Littleton. And I mentioned a Javanese crew, and you know, the napkins came out, which we didn’t have, and I can’t remember the meal but the finger bowls came out as well as, you know, treated just as it were, pre war sort of thing. Very interesting but the

meal was sort of upgraded to about three or four courses. They were very adept at preparing meals and things like that, that made them a little bit more interesting troop-ship-wise. But it hadn’t been converted, but you know, things were fairly basic but they upgraded it because I had a guest there. Yes I got,

was receiving food parcels from New Zealand, but then when I told Jocelyn that I was being married, the food parcels stopped, I could never understand that.

Yes, at Point Cook we arrived down there and there was nowhere to put us at all and two of us slept in a car for a couple of nights, until we got into the old gymnasium, and just on the palliasses and they were, we had to virtually walk on it, there were that many in that. The gym’s now

long gone, it was an old pre war building. But then they finally got us into a tin hut, they were unlined, and winter down there with two blankets, newspaper came in very handy. The trick is you put it underneath you and a little bit on top. But eventually, after the tin huts they got us into permanent buildings. But that

was a sign of the times, you know, totally unprepared in the early days. But strangely enough we didn’t complain, I never heard of anybody complaining or going crook as it were. But no, we just accepted it and yes, it was an interesting time being thrown into this environment.

Nobody seemed to complain very much, no. But I was glad to get out of Point Cook because it became very boring, really.

No, no, not at all. We did work on the Wirraways occasionally but not,

not very often. But yes, it was interesting down there in a way, getting into permanent quarters was a big plus, particularly in the winter time, it was much better, much better than a tin hut. But no, just accepted the problems that associated with the service in those days. You had to,

there was no alternative.

No.

I was working on Anson, Avro Ansons and Airspeed Oxfords, were the main ones at that stage. But no, there were no formed runways at all and that created untold trouble.

A little puddle would start and with aircraft dropping into it, it became a bigger puddle, and then it stopped them. I can remember, particularly the Demons, Hawker Demons, they just stood up on their nose. Very, very dangerous, very dangerous indeed. But they, there were crashes, but not very

many really when you consider the volume of training of pilots in the initial stages. Not very many, but there were. We used to night fly, over at Werribee and it was our job to lay a flare path for night flying. We used to go down into

an MVW [Motor Vehicle Worker] hut that, he was there controlling the sewerage, but he had a fire, so we used to keep warm in there. Nobody else knew that, but we were there. Interesting times, really.

Oh very busy, I can’t go into the numbers, but

aircraft, I wouldn’t know how many, but ‘course there was the servicing side of it, doing major repairs, the parachute section. And I can always remember an interesting one, I had a sprained ankle, I think it was, and I went along to the sick quarters, waiting in the chair there. And

I heard the MO [Medical Officer] saying to one of the guys, “In civilian life would you come and see me for a minor thing like...,” like whatever he had. And the quick reply came back, “No sir,” he said, “I’d send for you.” I didn’t hear the result of that remark at all. But there’s a lot of funny little anecdotes you think of after,

and still remember them too.

Oh, there’s a lot of funny things happened I can tell you, but we got away with a lot, being so far away from Air Board in Melbourne. And if we didn’t want to belong to Air Board, we belonged to Air Ministry and vice versa.

So we were very cheeky, very cheeky indeed.

Well we bent the rules, bent the rules enormously, and our, we’re good engineering staff. Clem Bartle, a friend of mine, was a toolmaker and Clem and other people, who can’t come

to mind at the moment, we decided that although the Sunderland was called a flying porcupine, we, in our wisdom down there, decided that we’d put more guns on. So, no paper work, we just cut a hole in the aircraft and poked a gun out, but it had to be on a proper mounting, which our guys did. And we had a very good draftsman, and he would draw

it all up and then it was made in the special steel, was usually procured but not always. For example, they cut four holes up in the bow compartment, and remember we were all, being a flying boat, were very nautical. We had a bow compartment, we had a galley and we had a wardroom. And we had a

bomb bay but they never called the tail a stern, it was always called the tail turret or the tail, down the tail. We did have a nice stainless steel toilet but we didn’t follow naval tradition and call it the heads, it was called the dunny. And that was a

flush toilet too, it was somebody’s job to fill up that tank with sea water with a pump and that flushed it out. And where did it go out? It just streamed out behind. And the tail gunner always knew when somebody was in the tool, because he looked out and saw this misty stream go past him. There are a lot of strange

things we did there. We, oh, we put these four fixed guns out the front for demoralising gunners on U-boats, submarines, and it had a high concentration of trace in, tracer bullets, in the, which they would fire. And when you saw that fired, particularly at night, it would demoralise any

body that was on the tail end of it. But in the UK the anti U-boat patrols were very boring because it’s a very big ocean and finding U-boats, particularly at night, with the radar we had, very much hit and miss. But we did

get quite a few, and a country can’t run a war of that magnitude without getting the supplies, and the supplies mainly came in from overseas. And statistics show that the sinking of merchant shipping was absolutely horrendous, millions of tons were sunk, of shipping and losing the supplies.

But the logistics would be a nightmare getting all these supplies in and protecting convoys. Convoy escorts were rather boring. You used to just fly around, and we co-operated very well with the Royal Navy and escort vessels, and just as well because the navy picked up a few of our blokes that went down into the drink, as it’s known.

If you were air crew that went down into the drink you were eligible for the membership of the Gold Fish Club, which that’s a little badge there. Likened to the Caterpillar Club for those who have bailed out. And as you can see, I have been in the drink. On one occasion we were attacked by six Junkers 88s [German bombers] all at once

and created massive damage to the aircraft, loss of fuel, but we did make it back before we were injured. But...

Oh yes, yes.

Well, we were anti U-boat patrol down the Bay

of Biscay. We ran into six Junkers 88’s, on the 29th, no, the 30th of November 1943, and they created massive damage. The pilots got, were hit in the feet with shrapnel, the tail gunner had a bullet through both knees. Lenny Langley,

armourer, he was hit in the galley, though being a flight engineer, we were all gunners as well and we rotated. And I happened to be up in the mid upper turret at the time, blazing away. I can’t remember how many rounds of ammunition we got through, it was a twin gun turret. But what created a lot of havoc was that the IFF [Identification Friend or Foe] transmitter

down at the stern, had a detonator to stop it being interfered. IFF, Identification Friend or Foe, the code was changed regularly. But something hit the detonator from the Junkers 88’s and it blew a huge hole in the aircraft, but that filled the aircraft with shrapnel. A piece of shrapnel came up

through the step up into the mid upper turret where I was, went through my legs, and my face and the gun sight and went out the top. So, I was alright.

It didn’t, no it didn’t, no.

Yeah, it went through, between my legs and my face and the gun sight. But I make an, I usually make an expression here but I won’t at the moment.

Anyway, they were interesting times.

Yes. We had an allocation of a certain area, with other aircraft, down the bay to, well virtually,

look for U-boats, because they used to come back in to the U-boat pens in France. And ‘course, a submarine is very, very hard to see, and mainly visual contact, although radar did pick them up at time, at times. But they had

counter measures that could detect us, as well as we could detect them at times. But we were quite successful in getting U-boats over the period and also we would damage a lot that would still be seaworthy and able to escape, but that was the name of the game.

My first tour consisted of eight hundred-odd hours and the second tour six hundred hours, which equated in operational missions to about a hundred and ten. And actually in one month I put up a hundred and twenty-one hours, fifty minutes in the air, in one month. You didn’t do that every month. Weather was a big problem with us, the Bay of Biscay is

very rough, and the Atlantic, it is well known, and it is just as rough above it because we did not fly very high. Normally around about a thousand feet because if we got a contact you had to get down very quickly and therefore you had to be near. And we used to fly when birds refused to fly, and that occurred on one occasion. We were diverted to

Lochearn, which was quite common to be diverted either to Lochearn, Stranraer, Oban in Scotland. Lochearn is in Northern Ireland and on one occasion we were diverted to Lochearn, there were a lot of crews there, diverted also, and I believe there was a convoy in trouble and they sent us out. I

believe we should never have been sent out, but the weather was so bad that they recalled us. But ten and fifteen thousand ton ships disappearing into the troughs of the waves, so it’s rough down there and it was rough on us too. Couldn’t cook a meal. Talking of meals, we had tea and toast virtually on the hour and

two cooked meals, usually cooked by the armourer. And if you got a good armourer and he was a good cook too, that was a bonus.

I arrived in June 1942 and left in December 1946, in other words I was away from Melbourne for nearly four years, having left at twenty-four hours notice. Didn’t worry us, not at all. Adventure.

Yes, we’re jumping around a bit.

That was in the UK.

Well we did things over there structurally to the aircraft that if you applied to do it, they would knock you back for sure. I’ll jump ahead a little bit here. Many, many years later and

this has a bit of a bearing on what I’ve been saying, the engines on the original Mach III Sunderland’s were old Pegasus, very good for their time, but they were built in the Humber factory, in a shadow factory, and we had a lot of trouble with them. And Short Brothers, who built them were well

aware of this and they went to the Ministry of Aircraft Production in the UK to fit Pratt & Whitney’s, the American engines, more power, more reliable. They were knocked back. But our fellows down there did a conversion, in the squadron, which, well could you imagine a motor car putting

a Holden engine in a Ford or vice versa. But our guys were very good at that.

They got four of them and put them in. Now, I attended a balloon fest up at, thirty k’s [kilometres] beyond Cowra, and strangely enough there was an old pilot there, he’s in his eighties, I was introduced to him and he

worked in a senior position with Short Brothers at Rochester in England. And we got talking and it came up that after Shorts went to ministry and were knocked back, we did the conversion down in Plymouth with a lot of help from Short Brothers on comps on the main spar and their,

their complications of matching up a lot of the components. And he said to me, “It always intrigued us at Shorts, where did you get the engines?” And I said, at that stage I didn’t know, and I said, “Knowing our blokes they probably pinched them.” But that was not the case, there were four at Ministry of Aircraft Production for another project that did not go ahead,

and that’s where we got our engines. Shorts didn’t know about that. But then eventually they went back to Ministry of Aircraft Production and said, “The Australians have done it at Plymouth, we’ve got to do it.” And it was agreed upon. And then they were fitted far to late in the war and that became the Sunderland Mach V, a totally different aircraft. And when we did the conversion in Plymouth they flew it up

over Pembroke Dock in Wales, shut down two engines, because we had fully feathering props at that stage. And that created pandemonium on the deck and they expected us to crash. But they flew on and started up the other two and came back over with four going, and landed. And they didn’t know, even at Pembroke Dock, what we’d

done down there.

Yes, yes, yeah. And it made a marvellous difference, much quieter, far more power and very reliable, but it came a little bit too late. I think I only had about four or five flights with the Pratt & Whitney. I can’t remember whether they were operational or not but,

that’s what we used to do.

Buck the system.

Oh yes, having real tradesmen that could do these things. As I mentioned, Clem Bartle was a toolmaker, we had a very good draftsman that was able to work in conjunction with Short Brothers, because we got on very well with the builders.

‘Course aircraft were also built in, by Short Brothers in Harland in Belfast and up in Scotland on one of the lakes, I believe they built thirty up there.

Oh yes, yes.

No, no they were at Rochester on the Thames. But the Sunderland was the military version of the Empire ‘C’

class flying boat, it flew to Australia before the war. Incidentally they only, on that service with, I think it was then, might have even been Imperial Airways, or certainly it was BOAC [British Overseas Airways Corporation] in those days, which eventually came to be British Airways.

Oh yes, yes, very much.

As a matter of fact, our daughter was with British Airways in Melbourne and I had a booklet called, ‘Travelling Abroad 1939.’ And in that booklet there was the [PO] Mariposa and the [PO] Monterey Strath boats and the Orient Line, and also the flying boat service to the UK. And Debbie took it into an airline function and she

was showing them this little booklet, and ‘course modern flight was totally different in those days. And it got into the hands of a senior British Airways chap that was out here and he asked to borrow it. Well to this day I haven’t got it back because it’s in the archives with British Airways. But I did

get a letter from them in London, thanking me for donating it to the archives and would I accept a pair of Concord cufflinks. So I prefer the cufflinks to the book.

Were you?

Yes, so it’s amazing how things from the olden days

trigger things to be preserved, which is a good thing.

Which is also, when you think that in that era, the population of Australia was only round

about seven million. And done down at Fishermen’s Bend, it was quite an achievement really. But...

Yes, to the UK.

Oh well, we could have extended beyond about fifteen hours, but they took the trailing edge tanks out for some unknown reason and a little over fifteen hours was our prudent limit of endurance. But yes, the most

I did was just a few minutes short of fifteen hours, and quite frankly that’s long enough. Unheated, no insulation, very cold, but we got there.

Yes, yes. I just used to wear my battle dress and I put on overalls to keep it clean.

But I didn’t feel the cold unduly. I had a big pullover on as well, like a white, you may have seen war time navy blokes wearing them. But ‘course, as I mentioned, we had tea and coffee, no... no coffee, just tea and toast on the hour every hour, cooked on two Primus stoves

and then a meal. And nearly always we had a desert through food parcels, tins of fruit and jelly crystals, that was mixed up usually in a chipped enamel bowl, put up in the bow compartment where it was really cold and that was our sweet. We ate very well. I can always remember,

on one occasion we were sitting on the water, beautiful day, and I noticed submerged, a box with the wire binding round it, shining. So we grabbed the boat hook, hauled it in, and it was ninety-six tins of Canadian salmon, large tins. And ‘course, we were all sworn to secrecy that we had this. And took some home, oh, we had a flat

over in Plymouth, and a few were distributed, but that, on occasion, served as the entree. Made it a free meal.

Yeah, that’s the only time I’ve ever been successful in fishing. But no, that was a, oh, we used to supplement.

The diet on board was eggs and there was the odd chicken or two, I don't know where that came from, I can only surmise. And no, we did eat rather well, we had a very solid meal before we left, and one when we came back. But normally at night we were pulled out of bed

two and a half hours before take off, the navigators, wireless ops, and the pilots went to a briefing in the operations room and the rest of the crew went out on board and did all sorts of checks. Pumped the bilge’s out because some aircraft leaked more than others and checked the fuel tanks and

a few other things, made sure the little tank was full for the toilet. And always busy, always busy. When we returned, the very next day or whatever, the whole crew went out and cleaned the aircraft. And, not today of course, the aircraft’s all cleaned by other people, but we had to do it.

Interesting.

Oh, normally a shift would be two hours on the bench or the console, for the flight engineer, two hours off and two hours in the turret, alternated around like that. The navigator was the hardest worked

guy on the crew. He rarely left his little navigation bench, only for nature calls, but his lunch or tea was always brought up to him. He was, never had a free moment at all, worked very hard. Pilots, they had it fairly easy, sometimes four of them. But

‘course we had George in those days too, he took the strain off them, but the navigator was the hardest worked member of the crew.

He’s an automatic pilot and he always had the name of George in those days, I don't know what they, much more sophisticated these days, but it worked

reasonably well.

It shifted around a little bit, but as I mentioned, weather was a very big problem and it changed very rapidly and very often we were recalled. And

on some occasions, well I can remember, it’s in my log book, we dumped around about six hundred gallons of fuel, because, to lighten the load for landing. Big problem with Plymouth was, it being a naval town, there were ships everywhere and laying a flare path, particularly at night, was a little bit of a problem. But there was one occasion, I think it was the

big battle ship, the [HMS] King George V was at the battle ship buoy at Drakes Island, with the current coming out of the Tamar, it swung it into where we wanted to lay a flare path. And the officer that was laying the flare path went and knocked on the side sort of thing and the officer of the watch was requested would he move his boat, it was in the way. And that didn’t go down

very well because he said, “Well the navy had been in Plymouth since Drake’s time, you’ve only been here for thirty, since 1939, we’re not moving.” However we’re very friendly with King’s Harbour master, who was God, they rang him up, King George V moved. So it’s the old, old story, it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. Still works.

Yeah, or take off from.

They were three little lights on top of a, well virtually a little boat, a very small boat, battery and it’s not much bigger than a torch. I think if you’re not off

after you’ve passed the second light, you aborted the take-off because Plymouth was very congested with shipping and it was very difficult. And particularly if it was calm, very calm, to break the suction you used to have to bounce them, and you had to have a longer run,

take off run, but if it was choppy, all the better. But oh, a lot of the tricks of the trade in those days. We had gales, gale warnings and things like that. There was also supposed to be two crew on board because we all had an individual sleeping bag and we had at least four bunks,

two in the wardroom and two in, I think they were in the bomb bay. However, they were there but you could, you know, have a sleep, sleep on board. ‘Course there’s always the kettle, you could make yourself a cuppa. Rations and water was always taken on board and

we did carry what was known as a Bircham barrel and that was full of food. A ‘Gibson Girl’, which is a transmitter, why they called it a Gibson Girl, nobody knows, but that was a transmitter for location if you went down into the drink and you were in the life raft, it emitted a signal. The

food packs which were always in our Mae West. A Mae West was our life jacket and that was inflatable and that had a light on it. And in those food packs, there was a very small compass, about that size, that could be swallowed and retrieved if necessary, if you were caught, POW [Prisoner of War].

There were Horlicks tablets, chocolate, French and German money and a tablet for recycling your urine. If necessary. Never tried it, never had to.

Yeah, made it a little bit drinkable, but I don't know whether it worked very well or not. But

there were a lot of side, things aside that didn’t normally go with flying.

Well it’s the easiest way to hide it, if you were caught as a POW. Yeah. I have one there, it’s never been used. I’ll show you later.

What else was in there? Oh, a little can opener, all sorts of things.

Ah, it could be up to twelve. And because we had so many guns, armament on board that they always had somebody to, as the Germans called us, the Flying

Porcupines, originally. And later on there was even more armament put on board, heavier armament, and all done virtually without authority on the aircraft. Because no, it had to be done and it was just done, the quicker way to do it is without any

bureaucratic interference.

Toolmakers and engineering tradesmen, yeah, yes.

Yes, yes.

Rarely.

Yes.

Well you’d have to manufacture a mountain of paper work, it would have to be assessed and a decision would be put aside, because they wouldn’t know what they were talking about, half of ‘em. Practical experience is the mother of invention. And it still works today,

I can tell you.

It should’ve but it rarely came about, rarely came about. Whether it did or not, I don't know, we were not concerned with it at all, get the job done, that’s the main thing.

Well, we needed heavier armament because their aircraft, particularly the JU-88’s [Junkers], I think they had a cannon and heavy armament on board, and they could stand off out of our range. But yeah, it was, had to be done, and the quickest way to do it is just do it. Yeah.

Well, we normally were around about a thousand feet but up to three thousand feet. But you could possibly get away easily with one or perhaps two, but when it got up to six, eight, ten and up to thirteen as some of the

flying boats had been attacked by, and got away, bit hair-raising. But you don’t get time to really think about it, you just concentrate on the job. And, well, we’re still here.

No, we’re all, nearly always alone, nearly always alone. There were occasions to try and bring two or three en masse. But I have never been with other Sunderland aircraft. You used to bump into people down the Bay of Biscay that were ours, our aircraft, but

I think either we weren’t supposed to be there or they weren’t supposed to be there. But otherwise, well it could be, one in a hurry to get home so he cut corners I think, not come in the normal way, come in from the Scillies up the coast and into Plymouth. But when we ran into trouble coming into Plymouth, we were, only had a hundred and twenty-five gallons of fuel

left at the Scillies, and Ted Clarke, our captain had to make the decision whether to land at Saint Mary’s on the Scillies, to offload the wounded, or press on, but he decided to press on. We couldn’t come in over the town because we were, knew we were low on fuel, so

we drained ten tanks until the red lights came on and Ted did an excellent dead stick landing, that’s without support of motors, on top of a four foot swell, slid her along out of wind, and virtually glided it in. And ‘course, we had that many holes below the water line, that they don’t stay afloat when they leak like a sieve.

We had plugs and plates that we could put over damage but we had that many bullet holes below the water line that we just didn’t have anything to plug them with. And we did have an auxiliary pumping unit on board but we had no fuel to run it, so we were bailing with saucepans and all sorts of things. But they sent a fire float, it was used

for fighting dock fires, out to us with the big pump, put it in, pumped her out and virtually beached it, and it took about three months to repair it. But then shortly after that it was lost with another crew. And I have photographs there of all this, but 10 Squadron in Edinburgh have them over there now, and

they’re waiting to get a few details, so’s they can mount them over there. And 10 Squadron ‘course, with the maritime surveillance group over there now, fly Orions, and we keep in touch with them regularly and they with us. And that’s a next project that I have gotta

attend to. Yeah.

I make the phrase, if you’re name’s not in the book, you’re alright. As with the

photo of the V2s [German flying bombs] I showed you there, yeah.

It lasted about twenty minutes, lasted about twenty minutes. I believe we got two, we shot down two of them and there’s a bit of a doubt about another two, not reaching their base

in France. And I base a little bit on hearsay that came through from the French Resistance, at the time. Communication was very, very good with them.

Yes.

Oh, they had radios and you know, with Nancy Wake’s [known as the White Mouse, an Australian woman working for the French Resistance] mob. Nancy just been in the news

recently. Yeah, still likes her gin and tonic. A lot of things there and...

No, they were picked up

on radar, and he misread the calibration, he said they were at fifty-five miles, but I believe that fifty-five miles was Beaufighters going home. It’d been a sweep down the Bay and they couldn’t assist us but then they were at five miles. And then they just attacked

from, you know, the beam, on the side, both sides. One goes below and the other goes over the top. Yeah, very interesting. Two of them I believe were very experienced pilots and the other, well not rookies but didn’t have the experience to the other ones who, the two

did most of the damage I think.

I believe so, yes. Oh, it came back in later books. I have a book there called ‘Bloody Biscay’, from the German side of things. And oh, the dedication at the Australian War, the RAAF Memorial, the upgrading last November, twelve months, we met a lady

in Canberra who, her father, whom she never knew, was killed with 461 Squadron, the Sunderland squadron, and her uncle was killed on 10 Squadron. The aircraft became, her father become airborne, not through enemy action, and he was killed unfortunately. Well she did not know what had happened to her father. I had the advantage of knowing

the date, the 29th of November 1943 at ten past two, and it’s all recorded from the German side, of which I have this book. And the Germans listed their crew and the Sunderland’s crew, that was on the 29th November. Also at ten past two, the very next day, the Junkers 88’s had got us. And it was all those

years later that I was able to find that out, because I have this book.

Yes. And she did not know. Of course, I’ve photostatted the copies of the book and sent it up to her. May be of interest, it won’t help in any way, but at least they do know a little bit more than the... She photostatted the copies of all that the family

got at the time, it conveyed nothing other than the date, that was all. Interesting.

They were coming at us, yes.

Yes, yes.

They were going home; they were fifty-five miles away

and the JU’s were only five miles, when they peeled off, and they spotted us you see.

There was a bit of confusion at the time, but they, I think he misread the calibration. Yeah.

Yeah, they peeled off and they got a method of attack, two went

round the other side and two at least on opposite sides, and did beam attacks on us. ‘Course you concentrate on one and the others are coming there, that’s why we put more guns on, really. And then two, the other two of the six, they take over after one lot have attacked and got out of the way. So, oh a bit confusing.

‘Course you have no time whatsoever to concentrate on the big picture, as it were, you gotta concentrate on who’s nearest. But bearing in mind you’re going that way and your turret’s rotating and your height varying at times, it’s very, very hard, you have an unstable platform to steady yourself to get a bead on them.

Oh yes, he’s taking a little bit of evasive action. And ‘course you get thrown around in this very small space, you bang your head on the side of the turret. But I never used to wear a helmet, I only wore the head band, head phones, didn’t like the, a helmet. But

that was my preference.

Oh yes, I just happened to be up in the, you know, alternating round the mid upper turret.

Oh yeah, beautiful day. But what really did save us, it was a beautiful day, but there was a long thin bank of cloud.

And Phil Oakley, one of our pilots, said to me in 1990, he said Ian, “If that thin bank of cloud had not been there we wouldn’t have been here today.” Because we went and hid in it, because we were damaged so badly. Oh, and we had a fire, we had a fire on board, something hit the compass and set the alcohol on fire. And Stan Chilcott was down on his hands and knees trying

to blow it out... and there’s a fire extinguisher there. Pandemonium.

Yeah, it was, yeah, and we were hiding in the cloud. We managed to get, oh, forgotten his name, the tail gunner out of the turret and, ‘cause he...

Oh another little incident, with this violent evasive action, I became airsick. But I’d a, well it was like a little jam tin, but I had to get rid of that, so there’s a little flap in the side of the turret, so I tossed it out there and ‘course it went all over Frank Calendar’s turret. And he’d been hit in both knees, his flying boots were filling up with

blood, and he wondered what all this muck was. Not very funny. ‘Tis now. Yeah, so, and our armourer, Len Lang, he was on the floor in the galley, he’d been hit in the legs. And, as I mentioned before, the pilots they’d copped only minor shrapnel in the feet. And, but that chopped the,

our throttle controls off the three engines, they were hydraulic controls, we had no control over the engines, on three motors at all and...

Yeah, broke the lines, the hydraulic lines. You know, instead of a cable, the hydraulic throttles, and that was another problem. And then the IFF,

the detonator going off in that, made things a bit draughty and the smell of, inside the aircraft until it dissipated, was a bit horrendous.

Cordite or something, the explosive. Phil Oakley, that I mentioned, he ended up as a senior captain of Qantas after the war.

Oh, we had a lot of very interesting people on crews, you know, particularly after the war. Max Mainprise of course, he was with Colonial Mutual, he’s manager in Melbourne. And then there was Tom Stokes who took General Lord Gort down to

Malta. Stokes was the company that made badges and electrical elements, the company is still operating I believe. Very, very interesting people. Claude Austin of the Austin’s, the grazing, big grazing family of, down in the Western district. Claude was a very big, big man.

On one occasion, one of our navigators, at a later times, was Barney Fogg from Queensland. There was always a procedure when you went on board, signing the papers, the maintenance form that went ashore before we took off.

I took Diana out on board, we’re only doing a local trip, it wasn’t an operational trip at all. And the usual banter that went on, because she was hiding behind the door, and that wasn’t evident today. And Barney said, with an expletive in between, “What’s wrong with you blokes today?” And we brought her out. And

even in later years, many, many years later, forty years later, he was still apologising for the language. Oh, these are funny incidents that always taking place. But there was an occasion where they took another English serving WAAAF [Women’s Auxiliary Australian Air Force] on a little local trip and they were diverted.

And ‘course there’s one girl missing, didn’t know where they were, and nobody would say anything. However, she eventually appeared back, I don't know whether she told where she’d been or what happened but never heard what happened.

Yeah, only going on a little local. I don't know where they, what they were doing, but ‘course she was missing for a couple of days

because of the weather. I tell you another funny story. They used to change the name of the flare path, because on the RT, the Radio Telephone, the Germans are listening you see. And this day it was called ‘the funnel,’ for some unknown reason. So to clear oil in the engines you ran them up to a,

a fairly high rev. and that cleared any oil. So, I remembered his name, Glen Standring, came up on the funnel, ah, up on the RT and said, “May we run up your funnel,” he said. And back came the reply, “You may run up my funnel.” You can cut that out if you like.

There’s a lot of funny things

happened like that. And you only think of these now.

Oh yes, we had the earphones on all the time, even when we’re having a meal. Yeah, we always, there was plugs all over the place where, no matter where you were, you could plug in. And ‘course, if you had them off and anything happened, there was, you know, the klaxon horn used to go,

and you knew there was something in the wind, yeah. But we did attack a U-boat, it had been damaged. I have photographs of that there, taken from another aircraft, it’s a, rather a classic. It was U-563 commanded by Oberloiton and Gustaff Borshart, with a crew of thirty-seven.

No survivors. We, the depth charges are going off, one right underneath him and the another one just about to go, it’s rather graphic, and these are the ones that Edinburgh 10 Squadron want, so they’ve got them over there. But oh, that was quite interesting, but as I say, regrettably, no survivors. But that was the name of the game, it’s either you or

them.

They were taken from another aircraft. But whether, no he was on the scene when we arrived, and we just dropped four depth charges and that stopped him. But he was obviously unable to submerge because he was trailing oil, in the photograph

you can distinctly see the oil.

Yeah, there were two of them in the vicinity. Whether they, I can’t remember whether they’d attacked him and stopped him or, I don't know.

No, no they were from RAF[Royal Air Force] squadron.

Yes. Incidentally there’s going to be a reproduction coming out very, very shortly of a book that was published in 1980, was Maritime is Number Ten, by Kevin Baff. Kevin was a, came later and he researched and did an excellent job of it and they’ve just arranged for a reprint of that. And

it should be out shortly and all, mainly all I have said today is documented in that book. And it’s quite, oh it’s about that thick, I have a copy there which was...

Well we are, we’re getting it published by a publisher in Sydney War Books and that

should have been, but there’s been a little glitch in the publishing of it, it’s been a little bit late. But it’s been quite a traumatic time. They had to have a new copy of the book, which we got from New Zealand because Kevin Baff joined the New Zealand Air Force. But he’s retired now and he’s done a law degree, but he did a marvellous job of getting all this

information. And we had to get a reprint and then we had to get somebody to donate an old copy, so as they could wreck it for doing the reprint and one or two alterations had to be taken care of, but I think within the next month we’ll have a better idea of that. So,

as you can see, in the post war years we’ve always been pretty busy. We meet once a month.

Yes, oh yes.

460 of course, they’ve had a publication out for a few years now. And Joe Leach, one of our guys, I went to the UK with him, he’s produced a little book and he’s in his second print now, and there seems to be a surge of people wanting information. And as I mentioned, 10

Squadron at Edinburgh, they’ve ordered, oh, I can’t remember how many copies that they require, but it’s quite a few, and particularly families of people. One of our guys, Jeff Stein-Brown, not supposed to mention names am I?

Jeff Stein-Brown was an architect, and normally after your first tour you got sent to an OTU [Operational Training Unit] which was up on one of the firths in Scotland, clapped out old aircraft, terrible place to be, I believe. Jeff and another one of our guys, can’t remember his name, arrive up there after their first tour. Of course they’re very wise to

things after a first tour of about eight hundred hours. They didn’t like it there, so they put their heads together, “How will we get out?” So they decided the best way to get out of there was play up, they were flight lieutenant’s. So played up they did and they got sent down to an officer’s school at Chester, they called it a Borstal [punishment] school for

officers. So they arrived down there, they didn’t like it there either, so they played up again, pulled the old stunt, and they sent them back as incorrigible.

Operational training unit, training young people, which I mentioned we didn’t do, but we did it in the squadron. And ‘course it’d be very boring with old aircraft and

bad, bad weather. Yep. So...

No, no, no, they were meant to be training the younger guys coming through the system. No, Jeff passed on recently but what prompted that to come to mind was that Jeff’s son, who’s also an architect, he wants a copy of the book you see.

Because when I was in business, I showed, I used to handle architects and engineers, and he opened the book and he said, “Oh there’s my Dad.” So that’s why he wants the book you see, so you got this re-generation of offspring coming forward now, wanting. And yes, life’s interesting.

Oh yes. But they’re only the ones you can tell.

With this book, yes, I have it there.

No, that’s the only one I’ve ever been able to get hold of and that’s on its second reprint, the one that I have. So this reprinting of these books is not new, it’s coming forward all the time. And this publisher in Sydney War Books, oh they’ve had to open another

shop in Sydney. And it’s been a real upsurge of getting reprints done and that’s why ours has been a little bit longer coming. But we’ll get there.

Not that I know of. Touching on that, another little story which I think

is pretty terrific. Dudley Marrows, who lives near Mildura, Dudley was with 461, ah, started off with 10, he’s DSO [Distinguished Service Order], DFC [Distinguished Flying Cross]. He and Sylvia, his wife, went to Germany a few years back now, and caught up with a lot of the submarine commanders.

Well Dudley was down the Bay of Biscay, and they sank U-461 from, by an aircraft of Squadron 461. Remarkable how the, they sank it and they dropped the big Bircham barrel, that I mentioned previously, for

the crew and they were all rescued eventually, whether prisoners of war, I can’t remember. But the husband of the U-boat commander went to Sylvia, to thank her husband for giving them another fifty years of marriage, by dropping that Bircham barrel. Nice story.

To come, yeah. But had to be done by both sides and we did it to the best of our ability. There’s a lot of little stories like that come to light, and... yeah.

Yes, yes.

Yes, on the intercom.

Yes, there were, you really had to keep any chatter down to a minimum and the answer to a question or anything that came up, you gave a direct answer, mainly ‘yes’ or ‘no,’ as short as possible. Because with all, so many others listening, there’s

always some problem or other had to be fixed. We had to advise the navigator of our, and the captain of course, of our fuel consumption and remaining endurance so as he could plot timing, all very involved. And in a lot of ways, see we never had any flow meters, it was

all by watching gauges. Well when it was very rough, the gauges were going like that, so you had a mean thing in between, hoping it was right. But you used to watch their, the engine revs, the revolutions, and because, if the higher the revs, the more fuel, just like a motor car, drive it faster, it uses more fuel. And, bit of guess work, but we got there.

Yes, what the fuel… And whether we’re heading into wind or what. And ‘course the navigator’s got to calculate drift into that. And how that was done by, in the tail turret was a little thing there, and we used to drop a flame float, and when it hit the water it smoked, or at night

there was a small flame. And then he used to put his gun sight on that and then look down and give the degree of drift, port or starboard, and the navigator knew whether we were drifting one way or the other, due to the pretty high winds at the time. All very technical but very simple in a way.

Oh, you could, yes, depending on...

But they haven’t got to worry too much about that with modern flying.

A flow meter was measuring the flow of fuel, whereas we relied on gauges that fluctuated all over the place, particularly in bad weather, so a little bit of guesswork went on there.

No. Wouldn’t admit to, if I did.

Never really had one. We had very, very hairy landings due to very rough water. But a Sunderland, unlike a Catalina, could handle rough water better

than say, Catalina because he was low in the water, we were rather high. Occasionally we would lose a wing float, like you see the float up there on the wing, we’d lose one of those through bad weather, you know, might dip into a swell. Not very often, not very often at all.

It is, they are huge for their time, they were.

And I’m biased but they were a marvellous old aircraft.

Yes, they did. See the American flying boat, they were raised to become a wing tip, but not on these, they were never designed. I’ve forgotten what the American flying boat was now, off hand.

But we had a remarkable maintenance on our aircraft. It exceeded any of the RAF squadrons, I think mainly because we were very innovative and bent the rules a little bit. Didn’t always do things by the book,

but we got the job done. And our ground crews, I know, but I’m biased there because I was ‘ex’ one of them, worked very hard in very arduous conditions, cold weather, doing minor servicing on the water. And, no, they are to be admired, otherwise we couldn’t have survived without them.

Those?

Yeah, survive.

Normally, I can’t remember whether it was a creeping line ahead or a box patrol. A creeping line ahead

went like that within a certain area, probably another aircraft doing another area on side. Or there could be any, in one day, up to fifteen perhaps twenty aircraft down the Bay of Biscay, because it is a very wide area to cover. And there’s a lot of water out there and a U-boat is a very, very small target, and very, very difficult to see. That’s why they had to

flood the aircraft down there, and sometimes there were night patrols because that’s when U-boats would surface to re-charge their batteries. And probably at periscope depth during the day and with white caps on waves, a periscope moving through, created a little white trail. But very confusing, and it confused not only

us but radar as well, it showed up as fuzzy on the screen and you couldn’t pick them, it was very, very difficult work to really find them. And in all my nearly four years I think, I only sighted about two or three U-boats in fourteen hundred-odd hours of patrol. But

it had to be done and it was very, very vital that it be done because, as you said, can’t conduct a war without supplies coming in and mostly they came in from overseas, and shipping losses were enormous. But, as I say, the job had to be done and we did it to the best of our ability.

I can’t...

it was picked up, a bit confusion on the radar but, oh no, it wasn’t, I jumped a little bit there. I don't know, we were called onto it, really, because it had been attacked before and it was damaged, as the photographs show, it’s trailing oil. Now he made no attempt to dive and I don't know whether he was shooting at us or not, I didn’t

sight anything, but I wasn’t looking for it really. And evasive action takes place as part of our pilot, and everything gets thrown round the aircraft because they could stand a lot of punishment with evasive action, because they were very, very, rugged aircraft. And no danger of them falling to pieces, I can assure you of that. And we were homed on it because,

I don't know whether we were directed or we heard on the radio, where it was. And we just arrived and there it was, so you waste no time surveying the situation, you just dive on it really. And with the result they were excellently placed depth charges, one slid right underneath him. We dropped them from about forty feet because a depth charge can’t be dropped from a

great height because it would burst open. And one slid right underneath him and the other blew just a few feet later. They were timed and they were set for a depth, I think from around about twenty-five, thirty feet in old terms, and the hydrostatic fuse set them off. So he was a prime target really, the weather was tremendous and

that was that. No survivors, regrettably, but still, that was the name of the game.

Oh yes, we flew round it in circles and from memory the bow went up and it started to slide below the surface. And they were abandoning

there, they were on a very sloping deck so they just slid into the water. And I don't know what happened, because in an action like that you clear out of the area in case the JU-88's would come after you. So, as I say, if you’re name’s not in the book, you’re alright, yeah.

They were taken from an RAF, I’ve forgot, I think it was 202 Squadron. I think it could’ve been a Halifax. I’m not too sure of that now. And there happened to be another one in the area too.

They’re dropped by the captain of the aircraft

because he takes full control, because it is all visual, it is all visual, and he had the button on the control column, and he, absolutely control. Although the second pilot, or the first pilot’s on his right, just in case any problems, but it was a copy book exercise really.

But whether they fired on us, I have no idea, I didn’t see a thing, but we certainly were not hit so fair indication that... I do know they were in the conning tower and my second burst wiped them, yeah.

I was in the nose. The nose turret was never manned, and it was always manned by whoever was off

in the wardroom. From memory, I think I was having my lunch when, and that was nose, I went straight up into the turret. In the turret was a gas operated Vickers, single barrel, with a round pan with all the bullets in it. And the drill was, there was one on top of the gun and I clamped another one between my knee

because it was easy to pick up, off in the, rather than get it off the carrier, on the side.

Oh, I got in over two hundred rounds on that, ‘course they fire pretty frequently. But everything happens very, very quickly, very quickly indeed. You, I say you concentrate, but it’s

just a matter of what you were trained to do in the circumstances, from many drills that we had. We did a lot of firing practise with a drogue towed by another aircraft and each turret had different coloured bullets that left their mark on the drogue, so they knew what percentage... On one thing I had

fourteen percent hits on a drogue, which is pretty good really. Normally it would be about five, seven percent.

Oh yes, you always did, you know, gunnery practise, and we did fighter affiliation with Spitfires, with their camera guns. And on occasions they couldn’t get a shot on

us because the drill was, pull your throttles off and go into a steep turn and go down near the water because other pilots don’t like going near water. Whereas our guys are trained for flying low on water, as you can see.

Yes, oh in violent side to side dropping and pulling up. And

being a relatively slow aircraft it could almost turn on a ten cent piece. As we had occasion to do on one very hairy experience we, on the west coast of Ireland near the mountains of Maun, we happened to go up a gully, through bad, very bad weather. And

we did a quick reciprocal and got out, we didn’t waste time doing a great circle of a turn. So yeah, the tail gunner just happened to come up and say, we’re over land, which we shouldn’t have been. But we had been diverted to Northern Ireland and we flew out from there and shouldn’t have been sent out because we’d partied on with other crews the night before so when we got back, we partied on again.

No, I think we went straight home, went straight home. We’d used up a fair lot of fuel, and from memory we were pretty well down the Bay of Biscay.

Our crews got around quite a lot, even up as far as Iceland on occasions and down to Malta. But Malta was a different kettle of fish, you’re in the dark, and out in the dark because you weren’t far from Sicily. And Malta was very heavily bombed, and ‘course originally there was a British naval base there,

which used to get attacked regularly. But we did lose an aircraft down at Malta.

Down to Malta.

A lot of taking VIP’s [Very Important Person] down there and I believe they used to take the engines down for the Spitfires, which were based on Malta. But

that was a pretty scary run down there. But of course, they took the George Cross down, on occasion.

Mainly in the Bay but we used to get out to, right out into the Atlantic

a fair distance, I think. Probably, oh around about twelve west, which is a fair way. But see, we used to range fly, rarely we went anywhere in a hurry because we just ambled along with, oh around about a hundred and fifteen knots, I think. And rarely did we go very

fast. Well, we couldn’t go very fast because the aircraft didn’t in those days.

Or a box patrol within a certain area.

No, they were mainly concentrated in co-operation with other aircraft. You didn’t

intrude into their, that’s why I mentioned previously, the navigator worked very, very hard indeed, he was on the go all the time.

Oh, quiet elation really,

that we achieved something after, you know, long tedious patrols. And a bit of celebration, of course.

Oh, such a long time ago now, probably just a few beers. But when we were hit with the six Junkers 88’s the doctor gave you sort

of a happy pill, mixed it with a few grogs and you were fine. Back in the air again in about two or three days, another aircraft, of course. Counselling we never heard of.

Oh yes, yes.

Six Junkers 88’s, JU’s.

Oh yeah, yes, I believe two of them went down and we did hear that two did not return to their base, they were damaged, but that was not confirmed. Where that rumour or

whatever came from, could be anyone’s guess.

Not enough time to think, just concentrate. And yes, no, there’s no time, because everything moves so fast, so fast. And you know, when you arrive over a U-boat there’s no time

to concentrate on what you will do, you just go straight in before he crash dives. Because they can drop underneath very quickly. But then if they do that, you’ve got to sort of estimate where he will be. If the sea is calm you can see, but if it is any way rough with white caps, you can only guess. But they were

pretty good at it, pretty good.

I’d probably be on what was called the bench or the console, the flight engineer’s bench, monitoring the instruments, oil pressures and changing... See we had ten fuel tanks, five on each side, you can draw on any one, or any one

from either side. Quite a tricky operation really but it was all done by levers, just like a little signal box really. You had to keep a log, kept it filled in, and watch the revs, and then get a fair estimation of the

fuel and the remaining endurance which is very, very important for the pilots. Because we’re out such a long time and you might strike a head wind or a storm going back home. Very nice to get down off Spain, probably in sunny weather, warm weather, and then back into the cold, bleak weather in the UK.

Oh to balance, balance the aircraft if it got out. And particularly if you got a hole in one tank, you shut that one down and draw on others. And which you have to do occasionally, not very often, not very often, there was a transfer system from either side.

Yes.

Only one at a time. We carried two flight engineers and they alternate, we alternated. There’s always somebody free to manage the front gun, it was never fully manned. Tail, the mid upper was always manned and then they cut holes in the

side and put two point five’s out there and they were manned all the time so everybody was pretty busy. But, as I mentioned, the navigator, he never got any time off.

Oh, early in the piece and stayed with it right through really.

Oh no, it was much easier in front of the control panel, much easier. But you only had one, to focus on one thing, whereas if you were say, in the mid upper, you were rotating three hundred and sixty degrees all the time, scanning the... very

boring at times but... interesting.

Normally no longer than two hours. Two hours on, two hours off and two hours on the bench as it was called.

Oh, just constantly not much time to...

you’d listen to a little bit of chatter going on and a bit of talk, but it was all orientated to the job we were doing really. And, particularly at night, you’d get a call right round all turrets to see if you’re awake. Usually you were

because it’s too cold most of the time, to doze off.

Could be.

No. Sometimes you felt like it because, as I mentioned, you were pulled out of bed two and a half hours before take off, that’s before you did anything, and when you’re fifteen hours and then a de-briefing afterwards, it could stretch to about eighteen hours

a day. Do that, you know, sometimes three times a week, it’s a bit much.

Oh, you’re plugged into that, it’s all the time, all the time. As a matter of fact, if you were having say, your lunch or dinner, whatever you call it, you were invariably plugged in too.

Anyway it kept your ears warm.

Oh no, not unless they asked you some specific question, but you just concentrated on the job, all the time. Very lonely and very rough in the tail turret,

because it swung around a little bit. And he would give the navigators, as I mentioned previously, the readings on the drift of the aircraft. But very cramped position, getting in and out.

Yes,

you only saw where you’d been, not where you were going, whereas you had a pretty good view up top, in the mid upper turret. But yes, interesting, interesting days really.

Oh, it would be all very much business like. I can’t remember any particular peculiar instances or anything other than... The pilots and the navigator used to talk quite more often than they would to other

members of the crew, and the navigator always gave the remaining endurance of information that we supplied him and information that he gained. And there was always the occasion where you would be recalled because of bad weather. Diversions took place quite regularly, as I

mentioned, up to Lochearn or up in Scotland somewhere, and that had to be allowed for on your remaining endurance that you could get there. I always remember one occasion, there was nowhere to go and we went up towards Southampton, to Calshot, near the Isle of Wight. And,

well we knew where we were but the cloud was so low and the air traffic controller at Calshot, he was getting a bit worried. But we found a hole in the cloud and we went down and landed in the Solent somewhere, started to taxi miles and miles to Calshot, but we started to overheat so we just shut

down and drifted. And a Royal Navy craft turned up and wanted to claim us as a prize, but he was promptly told where he could go, and we put the kettle on and had another cup of tea. But when we finally got to, we were alright, but the air trafficker at Calshot, he was traumatised, so he went and got a demijohn of

navy rum so we had a party. But we were alright, he was the one that was worried, he’d been firing the, not the Very cartridge but small rockets, we didn’t even see them. But, oh well, things always turn out alright.

Oh, I think they did, think they did, but no, we were alright. When things cooled down, the engines cooled down we

started up and taxied in the rest of the way. No that, all in a day’s work. We had plenty of food, plenty of water, put the Primus on and make a cup of tea. Standard practise.

Yes. Yes I don't know that there’s any

other outstanding features that are printable.

Well, I remember, and it wasn’t me, I don't know who it was, not gonna say anyway. The aircraft up on deck were fitted with beaching gear and wheels, that they could be moved. And this aircraft

was, had the bottom taken out of it, it was damaged or something. This guy decided that he’d take one of the Royal Air Force WAAF [Women’s Auxiliary Air Force] and show her around. And he went up the ladder which was fairly high, around about ten feet high to get in to the aircraft, he went up first, in the dark, and I don't know why he chose going up there in the dark.

But the, there was no floor, and he went right through and ended up back down on the ground. How he didn’t straddle one of the stringers I don't know, but he came back down where he started. I don't know what happened after that, whether he tried it again. But oh, then the, we had a little tractor there and that was a source of fuel, for

some of us had cars. But one bloke’s down there with the hose in the tank and a voice from the other side of it saying, “Get out of it. I was here first.” Police used to pull you up, I had a little Morris 840, but I used to get an allowance of fuel, and travelling round the countryside, cars were very, very few and far between.

Police would pull you up, but when they saw you in uniform they just waved you on. And there was another instance of a guy down at, he had a pub after the war down at Geelong. Well he was in the Borrington Arms, getting back to the UK. And there was a little narrow road, like it was a little fishing village, little narrow road

wrought iron railing and another little narrow road down below, virtually more than a footpath. So this guy, Nipper was his nick name, came out, couldn’t go round the back, went to the iron railing, and a member of the Devon constabulary copped the lot. So there was an identification parade and he pulled the old trick, he stopped in front of me and said, “Where were you last night?” I said, “I was here.” “Didn’t go out?” I said, “No.” Oh, he had

the great entourage behind him. And I said, “No, I didn’t go out at all.” And Nipper came racing up, he said, “It wasn’t him it was me,” meaning himself. So very friendly with that, he was rather a rotund policeman and I, he used to ride a bike but he had to walk up the hills. And this day he was just walking so I picked him up, he got in the back seat

and he was huge, the front wheels nearly came off the ground. However, I eventually sold the car and he saw somebody else driving and he pulled ‘em up and he made him show the papers, he knew the car. So we got on very well with the members of the constabulary there. ‘Course they were entertained a little bit I think, and that always helps.

Oh, in the messes.

Yeah.

Oh, all the time really, we were very fortunate in comparison with Point Cook. It was a permanent Royal Air Force station, famous

because Lawrence of Arabia was stationed there when he was in the RAF, in the early days. I’ve just forgotten his proper... aircraft ashore [it is Felixstowe], as it was then. And Mount Batten is really named after Mount Batten tower, it was an old fort, oh going

back the early sixteenth century. And our squadron plaque is on the wall of Mount Batten tower, had to be in Welsh slate, not the normal bronze casting, to meet heritage demands. And it’s in that book done by Doctor

Robert Reid, Richard Reid rather, and he briefly mentions it and the photograph of it’s there. Permanent station, double glazed windows, ‘course we had never seen double glazing windows in those days. And they were heated dormitories and rooms which was a plus for us really. And it was very

compact, you didn’t have, you’d walk anywhere within five minutes or less, anywhere on Mount Batten. And like everything else, that has been sold off, and it’s our, but there’s still a lot of the heritage features cannot be touched with developers or any buildings that go up.

Can’t think of anything else. Oh, in the early days, we carried pigeons, homing pigeons. And it’s in ‘Maritime is Number Ten’, one of the pigeon’s names, had the name of Shags. Why, I don't know. I think he always had the thing of arriving back late, so he must have dilly dallied on the way,

hence the name. But they were dispensed with after a while, and they were a little bit unreliable. Not only that, we were quite a long way out and weather was, played havoc with them I think, so they were dispensed with.

Oh yes, yes, they carried

on the plane.

Yes, and they had a little container on their leg that you could put a message in, though I think mainly if you were ditched and radio inoperative or something, you could release a pigeon. But...

He, apparently Shags did, he dilly dallied. And that’s all in Maritime is Number Ten,

the book. And I can’t think of anything else.

Oh yes, yeah.

I believe that in Latin it was, ‘Bullshit baffles brains’. And

we can vouch for the first two words ‘torre’ or ‘excretum torre’ but I’m told that the other is, ‘baffles brains.’ It sounds appropriate anyway. But that, I have a larger copy of that, it’s in the museum down at Point Cook, and the squadron have the one with the damage in

it, that’s over in Edinburgh. And when I presented the little photograph about that size, they copied it and framed it and presented it to me, oh, some time ago when I was over there. But these photos are over there now, waiting to get a little detail, they should’ve had the book but as I mentioned, there’s a delay in the printing of it. But it’ll

come, and I think it might mean a trip over there.

No, no, it’s just somebody did it. It’s very well done really. And...

It’s a skeleton astride a barrel of Abbott’s. And the drips from the tap eventually

form into depth charges dropping on a U-boat. And no, a lot of people, are not au fait with the Latin derivation.

About, yeah, yes, that’s right. How he ever dreamed it up, I don't know but...

Oh Diana’s wedding ring was made in the instrument section of Mount Batten by, he was a jeweller, but an instrument maker.

I don’t, you’ve channelled me onto something which I’ll come to. We had a cinema, camp cinema, and they held dances down there.

There was a few of our guys, he’s very good on the violin, name just won’t come to me but it will later, it doesn’t matter. Harry Marshall was a very good pianist and oh, there’s a couple of musicians there that... And ‘course we used to have the ENSA [Entertainments National Service Associate] concerts with

oh, top class entertainment people, you know, from London shows. Names again won’t come to me, always first class. Quite regularly there would be a performance, and normally they would be interrupted for crews that, you know, to take off earlier than anticipated sort of thing. So

the proceedings stopped whilst they cleared out. I’ll come in, I think it was VE [Victory in Europe] Day. Plymouth being a naval town, and of course it was very busy, you know, the Normandy landings there on, Plymouth, Southampton and all those ports were full of ships. And

I can remember some of our guys got hold of the Very cartridges when war in Europe had ceased, and they’re blazing away with the Very cartridges in different colours. And being a naval town the commander in chief of Plymouth apparently rang up and was gonna hang, draw

and quarter us. And he hadn’t put the phone down until all the naval ships opened up with live stuff out to sea. So that was the end of that, never heard from him again. ‘Course Plymouth’s very famous for Drake playing bowls while the armada was sailing up. And another famous thing on Plymouth Hoe is

the war memorial to the Royal Air Force and also the naval memorial which is similar to the one in Portsmouth, which we visited last November. Smeaton’s Tower is there, that was the original lighthouse on Eddystone Lighthouse, which is about I think, from memory, seven miles out. Very well known landmark, it’s been there for years.

Yes, and of course the Barbican, that’s where the Mayflower sailed from. Near the Barbican on the wall of the citadel there’s a bronze casting to the citizens of Plymouth, ‘In appreciation...’ or something, I just forgot the words.

And the Barbican area is a very, very old area of Plymouth. ‘Course Plymouth was very, very badly damaged and it has been restored. And we’re over there in ‘75 I think it was, and ‘course it’s totally changed, and very, very attractive area, tourist-wise now.

Yes, as a matter of fact, another incident, we had motors cut on us, coming into the cat water out of Plymouth Sound itself and it swung round and ran onto the rocks, it’s very rocky. And I jumped off and pushed about thirty tons, pushed it with my back,

and it didn’t do any damage to the hull. So when it started to move, I clambered back on board. Oh, mooring a flying boat is very, very interesting. There were buoys and there was always two in the bow where we had a bollard, and sometimes they used to pull it up with a boat hook from the buoy

which was on the top, a cable. But I found the best way to hook your feet under the anchor chain and on the hull, go over backwards and scoop it up and hand it up round the bollard. It seemed to be easier, I don't know why but I found it that. But then you put a strop onto the hull with a U-bolt.

And, but to steer the thing in with currents running, you did it with your engines, but to slow it up we had drogues in the galley, in a compartment, that you threw out. And on the end of the drogue it had a rope that you had control, that when it slowed it up and you want to stop it, you pulled on the rope and it spilled all the water out of the drogue, it tipped it up. And

a very tricky, particularly in windy weather. Now gale warnings, two crew were put out on board to stop it snatching on the cable, which was attached to the hull. And I can remember, on one occasion, sitting out there and running the engine for eight hours, just to keep it up and stop it snatching.

The other bloke made a cup of tea and he took over and just watched it. But you didn’t have to do that with normal aircraft, flying boats had to be nurtured under funny conditions.

Yes, only two of them, to keep it up. And when you had about four or five, sometimes they broke away too and we lost them, in gales, which, get

an Atlantic gale blowing, it was pretty severe. But we, there was always plenty of food on board, you wouldn’t go hungry if you were out there for any length of time.

Either hit a ship or went on the rocks. But

oh, around Plymouth we had the balloons, barrage balloons on a cable. And, for example, to get through, you’d ask for three, four, five pulled down, and on occasions they’d pull the wrong ones down, five, six and seven. ‘Course we think that four, five... three, four, five have been pulled

down, but they were for anti aircraft really. But our craft used to cut the cable, with the propeller, and then the balloon people used to go crook because they lost the balloon. And up on Staddon Heights, behind, they had a huge barrage of anti aircraft rockets, and when they let go, you

really knew it. But air raids were severe in the early days, where we were completely bombed out of Mount Batten and went up to Pembroke Dock, we eventually came back. But apart from that little interlude, we were based in Mount Batten the whole time. There were detachments occasionally up at Oban, but they seemed to

cut Oban out after a while, because I think it might be too expensive because the crews were set up in the hotels up there.

At Oban in Scotland, yes. Strangely enough I now come to live in Beaumaris, and it’s in my log book there that on a familiarisation flight we flew over

Beaumaris on the island of Anglesey. And, you know, forty-odd years later I come to live in Beaumaris here.

That was just before my time.

About 1941. But we used to get the nuisance raid now and again but

in the finish we didn’t worry about them. You were supposed to go down into the air raid shelter, but bed was too warm so you just stayed in bed, and it went away. Luck again, perhaps.

Oh yes, but if you notice on that photo where they’ve dragged our aircraft in, there are oil tanks, and that’s what they went for. And ‘course they were set

ablaze, I think, in 1941, and we lost one aircraft in the hangar. And strangely that was the sister ship to the one that they lost on Malta, all, both by fire, they got burnt.

Yes. Yep. As I mentioned previously, we were a hundred percent our own doctor. Bob Parish was the account officer, Ken Lord before him, own engineering officers. The dentist, we borrowed one from the RAF for that, well he was the dentist in Plymouth, by

the name of Bramwell. Own commanding officer but the station commander was usually an RAF, but at one stage Jim Alexander took over as station commander but then ... I mentioned previously Sir Richard Kingsland. Dick in those days was, name was Cohen,

was changed by deed poll. Well, I mentioned Rabatt, but Operation oh, the nuclear bomb development in the States, Dick...

Manhattan, that’s right. Dick was sent home

and he went up to Glasgow in civilian clothes and eventually he was told to get on board a tub of a boat, and that was taking the scientists for the Manhattan Project over there, so Dick travelled to the States on that. And then

home, I forget how he came home. But he, very interesting, very tall, be seeing him on the thirty-first of this, Canberra deal is coming up. So we had some interesting people. And aircraft, you know, only, that’s what brought us together but it’s the people that

make any organisation, and we always worked very, very well. I don’t, can’t think there was any arguments or problems at all, all in it. That was the only way to do, and there was discipline but it was not over disciplined. Mostly on air,

well always on the aircraft, not always, but sometimes, mostly it was all Christian names. But on formal occasions, it reverted to the prim and proper. No, it was good.

Oh yes, yes, yes. But oh, never on the aircraft,

very informal. A little bit different to the RAF crews.

Well they were more... tell you another little story on that. We used to get a lot of, quite a lot of leave, I think it was about twelve days every oh, couple of months,

and forty-eight hours, weekends off. And I used to go to London quite a lot because I had relatives in London and then eventually when I was married. And on North Road Station in Plymouth the train started from Penzance, and usually when it got to Plymouth

it was pretty full, and with Plymouth people travelling to London, mainly service people, it was pretty full. Well, I made a key to fit the carriage doors, because virtually, sometimes they were locked off, you couldn’t get through. So it’s only a square key, stainless steel too. I was standing there in Plymouth when the train came

in and RAF flight sergeant there, a young pilot, who did the drops to the Marquis in France. And I said to him, “Hey there’s two carriages here, completely blacked out.” Nobody got out. So opened the door quickly and we got in and to lock it again you had to drop the window and then turn round and

lock it and put the window back up. Now I said to him, “Now don’t put the light on.” But he ignored me, he put the light on. The conductor saw the light, you see, two carriages blacked out, and he burst in and said, “How’d you get in here?” I said, “We came in the door.” Which was true. And he said, “Well you’ll have to move.” I said, “Look, we’re not doing any harm.” I said, “You’re pretty full down

there.” Well we went, we got to Newton Abbey, and he went and got the military police. Well, I’d finished my first tour by that time and I started to argue with the military police and he turned round to me and he said, “Don’t you know there’s a war on?” And I said, “You’re not telling me a thing.” However, you don’t argue with military police, so I think we nearly stood all the way to London,

and oh, night journey too it was. But another little incident, should never occurred, I outranked the military policeman but you don’t argue with them. And going on leave particularly, if I was going the other way I wouldn’t have cared, coming back, do what they like. But

all in all, we got very good money in comparison with any, particularly the lower ranks of the army and navy and air force in those days. Oh, I think we got nearly about three times as much, which made a big difference to things.

Well

always on pleasure really. But, oh, another thing, talking about money, Diana and I had, I think it was seven or ten days at the Waverley Hotel at Edinburgh and Lord Nuffield, the Nuffield Trust picked up the tab. And I think from memory through the Nuffield Trust all air

crew in the UK, I think it was about twelve or twenty-four pound a year, just cash, from the Nuffield Trust. And yes, it was pretty good really.

Well I can. I was writing a letter to my mother,

and Bob Scott, God rest his soul, he passed away on his wedding anniversary last September. Bob came in and he said to me, and his very words were, “Come and give me a hand, I’ve got a couple of sheilas.” And I said, “No.” But he talked me into it after a long time, they were only down

at the cinema. I went down there, he married one and I married the other and I haven’t forgiven him since. But we’ve been friends all those years, but unfortunately Bob passed away. I never actually flew with him but he flew with a well known captain

by the name of Pockley. And there was a particular spot down the Bay of Biscay which was called Pockley’s Corner, and all this is in ‘Maritime is Number Ten’, the book.

I don't know, it’s just one of these things that happened, he’d been down there a few times I think, where it was I can’t remember.

But as a matter of fact, I mentioned we’re going to Canberra for the dedication of the two squadron plaques in the garden up there, it’s not in the paths where a lot of them are, and hoping to get Dana Vale to do the honours. But we’re taking Penny, his widow up there, she was on the station as well. And...

Well she, oh it started early November 1942, and we were married on the 14th of October 1944, so it wasn’t a rush job or a shot gun job at all. You’ll probably cut that out.

Yes, that’s how it happened really. You only get ten years for murder, sixty years this, come October. Yeah, so that was another instance. In the

Channel Nine, they took photographs out of our album and they showed a couple in their wedding gear, that was not us, they made a mistake, it was Keith Coward who now lives at Coffs Harbour. So that was one mistake that they made in, I think in their editing, we didn’t have any control over it at all.

But...

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was quite hectic, there’s only two of you here.

Oh yes, quite a few, quite a few, because we were static, you know, from virtually 1939 right through to 1945. And...

Oh, that was fine really, they, there was all pretty good liaison with... there were a few RAF guys there too, particularly in the met [meteorology] and the operations room. There was also

naval Wrens [WRNS: Women’s Royal Naval Service] on Mount Batten and they manned the degaussing range. The degaussing range, which was a system around ships for magnetic mines I think. And what they did, I don't know, but it was something to do with that, so they were on the station. Well, one of our pilots he married a Wren and

yeah, there was quite a few. Yes, we were married in the little church of Saint John’s just outside Mount Batten, where there were, in the little church yard, there were four German pilots buried. I think they were exhumed after the war but they were there and one or two of our fellows. We suffered fairly heavy casualties.

I think in 1943 when things were particularly bad, we lost, in a few weeks virtually, half the squadron, and that’s why in ‘Maritime is Number Ten’ you’ll see the list of them. I should say over ninety percent of them, ‘No known grave’, because they went into the sea and never to be heard of again,

unfortunately. But still, that’s war.

Oh, it could be all sorts of things, being shot down, you know, attacking U-boats, weather, mechanical failure, all sorts of things which... yes.

Well Admiral Donitz, Donitz, the German, he, really on Hitler’s [Adolph Hitler, German Chancellor] orders I think, beefed up the U-boat thing. For instance, all the fuel came out of Texas and it was a lifeline, strangle the life

line and you’re ripe for invasion. But fortunately the Royal Navy and coastal command, and allied navies of course, survived. I think in coastal command through all things there were about eleven thousand casualties. That’s not generally known but it’s

all documented. Churchill [Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of Britain] was very, very conscious of this and he said so in some of his speeches, that the Battle of Atlantic has got to be won, otherwise things could be very, very different. So.

Yes, it was, I think it was either six or seven aircraft,

a total of around about a hundred and fifty casualties with no known grave. That’s only one squadron. But still, as I said earlier, if your name’s not in the book, you’re alright.

No, no, various crews. Well there was a reason really that you got switched

around a bit because, particularly after ‘43 area, pilots, navigators, wireless operators, air gunners, all came through the Empire Air Scheme, whereas the engineers were all tradesmen, out of a hangar as we were called. Then, until later on they,

there was an intake of air, not air crew, ground staff from the Middle East, that they went through the flight engineer’s course. But we’re very, very hard pressed until they came on stream and that’s why we got switched around so much. And those that had the experience always had an understudy

coming through.

Oh no, it was just that they came through the system and there was always a pool of that side of the aircrew. But it was a little bit different with us because we were all trades people that

came out of a hangar before we went flying. And as their tour expired or went missing, they were very hard to replace really.

Well, yes, if you knew them it had a, more intimately, if you knew

them, well it was a bit upsetting, but you just had to press on. If you let it get to you, you know, would be much more difficult. But no matter whether you’re bomber command or fighter, it was all the same situation that people had to deal with, and best

dealt with straight away, if you let it get to you, much more difficult.

Yeah, in a way, yes, yes. And ‘course in the early days when you were in the dormitory situation, there was all the belongings to be gathered up

and sorted and people that had to do that I think would find it a bit difficult as well as, though they were not directly involved.

Creeping line and box patrol.

It was really to get maximum coverage. I think a lot of it dealt on what they’d prescribed for you was due to weather. By weather, I mean whether it was cloud cover

or how high the cloud was, that had to be varied. I can remember the Normandy landings, we didn’t go in very close, but we had to keep, in other words, the sea lanes clear. As the Normandy landings progressed, there was the more, the creeping line ahead on, closer into France.

And I can always remember one occasion, the brief was to fly in close to Bell Island or Bell Isle, and see if they shoot at you. I think another one was Guernsey. And then we went into, along the coast of France, very, very low, and I can’t remember the village or the small town as it was, there was a tower and it had the French flag

flying. So we were never shot at from those briefings at all. But...

Oh, more or less the days after. You would strike a lot going, but we never saw anything really close in.

The big problem was with the, in the early days before Normandy, was the French and Spanish fishing fleets. They would be out fishing, and ‘course they would muck up the radar, and that was a cover for the U-boats. So we used to drop leaflets, in Spanish and French. And we

have been known to drop a few beer bottles, because when a beer bottle’s going down it whistles, and they think it’s a bomb coming down, and we’ve actually seen ‘em jumping over board. But they were a great nuisance and just how many U-boats sheltered in there, we’d never know really but I believe they were there. I never saw them.

North African landings, towing the gliders down, they used to break away, ‘course a glider only glides down and in the water. But they were fairly well equipped but we did drop one of the big barrels occasionally just in case, with everything in it. Oh, the other, Leslie Howard,

the actor, he went in, going somewhere, don’t know what aircraft, we went looking for any sign of it but we never saw anything. But there were other aircraft looking, but he was lost at sea. I remember, talking about actors and things, I was on a course up at Burton Wood

in, oh, near Manchester I think it is. And I can remember in a, there was a big American base, absolutely huge. And in this big storage, they had the big Glen Miller Band.

The Glen Miller Band. And of course, I think he got into trouble with an aircraft crash or something in France. But

that was an interesting sight to see such a big band. Anything else?

Oh yes, when they towed the gliders.

No, we were just doing our usual job and that was just a thing that happened, normally above us. But you know, like everything else, accidents do happen, through a

variety of reasons. And, on the ferrying VIP’s around in the early days, we had Lord Casey. I met him years and years later when he was, I think chairman of the CSIRO [Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation], and he used to live out here at Berwick, I think it was.

Oh, numerous VIP’s in the early days but that was to the latter part, they were using other aircraft such as, I think, Halifax’s and Wellingtons, a little bit faster than us.

Oh yes, yes.

Very much so in the early days and all through. It depends on where they were coming in from. Not many convoys came in to the south, they mainly went up to Glasgow, Liverpool and up north, and those squadrons that were based further up, possibly 461 out of Wales. But we were used on a couple of occasions.

Some of them used to come in from the Azores or come around the cape, Cape of Good Hope, South Africa. And, of course, there were Sunderland squadrons based down in Freetown, Lagos Lagoon, down in West Africa. One of our guys, he was with an RAF squadron based

down there. Oh, they were all over the place.

Cats, yeah, the both. Alan told me that they used to welcome, when they’re doing convoy escorts, welcome the

presence of coastal command aircraft. And he made a feature of that here with The Herald Sun, how they welcomed the aircraft and when on the occasions, when they were escorted. I don't know how far out that they would go but the Cat could do, I think in excess of twenty-seven hours, very cramped,

not very comfortable to be on one of those for twenty-seven hours. Bad enough with us with fifteen-odd at times.

Oh yes.

Could have been, yes. I think he went over there fairly early

in the piece.

I never got down to Malta, no, unfortunately, I’d have liked to. But we, as I mentioned earlier, we are very much involved with the Australia Maltese Association and the

Shelter of Peace. As a matter of fact I will be reading the prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi at their thing on the fourth of April. And that’s been a yearly thing in there, oh ever since, keeping that up, and will do so. Oh, it’s, you know, local politicians, representative

of the Premier, the British Consul in Melbourne, they’re there, and a few VIP’s. But it’s just a small service there at their Shelter of Peace, that they call it, in Birdwood Avenue near the Shrine.

Oh yes, that was formed out of 10 Squadron in ‘42 on Anzac Day, that’s why it’s called the Anzac Squadron. And they did rely a lot on RAF crews, you know, in their crews as well as, whereas we’re normally one hundred percent. And they were of course based up in Pembroke Dock,

in Wales. We still have very close association with Pembroke Dock people and their little museum up there.

Yes, yes.

Yes.

Yes, well I think we went through how I got out of Point Cook, did I not, going seeing a relative?

Well that was the start of it.

Oh yes, yes.

I learned on the job, I was on the job, and the most I did after I finished my first tour, was doing courses, because they wanted to keep me there, not send me to Keith Coward. Who I mentioned earlier, who was, got into our, the Channel Nine

deal, by the photograph, it’s not us at all. And Keith was the other one. He was married to a girl in Plymouth, and they bent the rules over there and that’s why I stayed, and had about eight months off before I went back. In the meantime I did a course on engines at Bristol, DeHavilland props, in London and up at Burton Wood, where

I mentioned Glen Miller, that’s where all that occurred.

Yes, that’s how I got into...

Yes. And that was an interesting time.

Yes.

Yes, I had, you know, been to engineering school, at the showgrounds then and down to Point Cook. And got a bit sick of it down there, so that’s why I decided to get out. And that was my first, what shall we say, making the system work for me. Going outside,

utilising somebody I knew, which I do that, still. No, it’s interesting period that.

I used to go for a, no just a, with a flying instructor who had a pupil beside him. I only went up for the ride

really, because whilst the aircraft were flying, we were just sitting on our backsides, and that broke the monotony. And all, actually what we did was the daily inspections on the aircraft, to make sure they were serviceable in every respect. You know, tyre pressures and you know, minor, really minor things. And if there was any problem, well we just fixed it.

But on the Ansons, they welcomed somebody to go, because in the early ones the under carriage was wound up manually by a handle, oh about a hundred turns I think it was. And if they had somebody to do that, when they became airborne, that was a plus and that’s why they liked somebody to go, to utilise them. And we went because it broke the monotony. And...

Not that I can remember. They were fairly reliable unless they had a prang or hit something, but normally they were quite okay. You know, they had to be re-fuelled and things like that, which didn’t take up very much time at all.

Just general, pretty good.

No, not that I

can remember anyway, unless something was bent, or busted. But no, no.

Used to use, lose a screwdriver for undoing little clips, so you just used a penny, because it fitted into the slot and it was easier anyway, and you always had a penny in your pocket anyway. So, no, that’s about the only thing I can remember down there.

And ...

No, no. Although they, the Sunderland people were formed at Point Cook but there was never ever a Sunderland there, not even in the museum unfortunately, now. Yeah. But it was fairly basic really and I think that’s why it

became a little boring, so I decided to do something about it. I did this right through my business career too.

Arrived there.

Yes. And we did a little bit of repair work before I decided to go on the aircrew side of it. And, because I wanted to. And I did.

And the first thing we did was an air gunners course there on the spot, did the usual aircraft recognition and on the firing range and thing, all things like that. But then we learned on the job, we didn’t go to a, I don't think there was anything available anyway in those days. There was for the RAF fellows,

but never for us, we were different to them. And it worked.

Yes. Yes, as I’ve mentioned previously.

Yes, things like that.

I think there was. And when you followed the book sometimes it’s rather protracted, but if there was a short cut and it worked, we did it that way. And I think I mentioned that our fellows worked very, very hard getting a high

degree of serviceability, which counted all the time. They tried to get three aircraft in the air every day, seven days a week. Didn’t always work but mostly it did, it had to be something very major to prevent it being fixed. But we got around it.

Try, yes.

Had to get three aircraft

available every day for operational duty. But mostly it worked.

Yes, there could’ve been more, but that’s about the, what they aimed for every day. ‘Course the long hours, the hours built up very quickly and they had to be

serviced. Major services, they had to come out of the water and be done up in the hangar, or when it, they could only get two in the hangars, the guys used to have to work outside in the cold and in the rain. They were very dedicated the ground crew.

They were pulled up on a winch, a long cable in

the winch room, they went down, pulled them up. But when they were manoeuvred around on the tarmac they were man handled, and there, oh, thirty, forty, fifty guys, tugging thirty ton around by hand. We did have a tractor there but it wasn’t always suitable.

Oh yes, they put beaching gear on them. It’s not on

my model, oh no, it’s up the front. Yeah. But they, the ground crews worked very hard, they had instrument makers, electricians, and then there was the workshop where they had lathes and things like that. It was very well equipped for those times and they had very, very good, excellent tradesmen,

as I mentioned before. Clem Bartle, and oh, the other names just won’t come to me but they were excellent. I did get into trouble once when the Junkers attacked us. As you visualise, port holes, which we had, always opened into the wind, they never opened that the wind would catch them. Well,

the lads were bailing with the saucepans and things and because the, it kept blowing back against them, and when he went to throw it out, it went everywhere. So what I did, and they were only perspex, I knocked the perspex out, and I wasn’t reprimanded as such but I was told by a sergeant, and I was senior to him anyway, that I should try and eliminate damage. So I think

I told him what to do. Well you had to be innovative.

Yes, yeah it was leaking like a sieve and yes, I always, I won’t remember, I won’t mention his name but he had the name of Gertie, so he’s a bit of an old woman. But, however that was

just an aside, had to be done, we had to keep the water out. Oh, peculiar old days in some respects.

Well Ron Gillies was originally a squadron leader but he got on quite well and he flew Sunderland’s for many, many years after the war.

Ron originally was a wing commander at twenty-three, but prior to the war he was a cinema operator at the Palais pictures in St. Kilda. Ron has now passed on but he was a great guy, I think they all were. Ray Rice was an engineering officer and he, after

the war was a senior engineer with the hydro in Tasmania. And we had a couple of lawyers, and no, we’re very, very... I mentioned Tom Stokes of Stokes, the badge people. My secretary, when I was working,

her son had a little footballer as a trophy, and somebody grabbed it and broke it off. I said, “Oh next time I’m out at Stokes I’ll get you a replacement.” So I went into Stokes and the young guy behind the counter said, “Oh yes, I’ll get you that.” And I spotted the first casting of one of those bronze castings that’s on the citadel

from the, I forget the reading of it now, from us to the citizens of Plymouth, ‘in appreciation,’ sort of thing. And I said, “Oh, how much is the caste.” “Oh,” he said, “that’s not for sale, that’s Mr Stokes.” So Tom Stokes came out just at that stage and I said, “Oh g’day Tom.” So we had a long conversation and he went off and I went to pay for this little thing, and the young

guy said, “Oh they’re free today.” Once again, it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. So yes, this is, you know, little things that continually cropping up, as you journey down the path of life. A friend of mine now is an air vice marshal, the first woman air vice marshal and I first knew Julie Hammond when she

first came into the air force, as an education officer in 1977.

Yes.

Oh yes, yes.

First met her in, I think it was around about

November 1942 and we were married in October 1944, so it wasn’t rushed, really.

Oh, that was relatively easy, because when we were not flying, you know, there was plenty of time. And I, when I finished

my first tour, I was moved up next door to the operations room which was half submerged, and that was called Wuthering Heights for some unknown reason, but I had a room up there. I was, nobody seemed to know where I was so, this is in between my two tours, so it was very handy up there because I had an iron and I used to do her ironing.

So I had plenty of practise.

And oh, yes, when she was on duty, I had a little stove and powdered egg, which was always plenty available and you know, the tinned milk and we’d cook an omelette with the other girls up there, and oh it

was very, very good. And all those little things made life nice and easy. Yeah.

Yes, it was by an RAF padre, Gil, I’ve forgotten his name. But he was squadron leader and it was a little church at Hooe,

just outside Mount Batten, and it’s spelled H-O-O-E. And it was one, at least, I mentioned earlier, that four German pilots were buried in the little church yard, a couple of our guys, but I think they have been exhumed and sent back to Germany, I think they would have been. But they were accorded

a proper military funeral when they were buried, which I think is very good. There’s no animosity, which is as it should be. Yeah.

Oh, just about all the crew I think, there’s a photo there of them, a few RAF guys. And

the reception was over at Goodbody’s Cafe, very well known cafe in Plymouth. I think it consisted of a slice of tomato, a lettuce leaf and a slice of Spam [tinned ham], that was it, because that’s all that really was available. And seems everybody had their reception over at Goodbody’s. And we had a flat over in Plymouth, as

well as, and I had a little Morris 840 car which we went, travelled everywhere in that, because we had a fair amount of leave and weekends. And I never had to rely on any aircraft petrol at all, not even out of the tractor.

Oh, had to. Yes, she knew everything and she knew if we got into trouble, because she was in the operations room. Yeah. No, she coped alright, yeah, ‘course we were much younger.

Oh yes, yes. Even if

you’re not on duty, the grape vine worked very well. But no, we survived alright.

Yes, I think so. Strangely enough we’ve never even discussed it. Did we? No. The

voice in the background. Not supposed to. Anyway...

Yes, and...

Yes, oh look, these stories keep cropping up. That was made by Penny Scott’s and Bob Scott’s, Bob’s mother-in-law and Penny’s mother. And it was there and I

called round to pick it up and there was nobody home, so I saw the cake there so I just took it. Well, they thought somebody’d pinched it, and oh, pandemonium, wasn’t it? And, no that was resolved and, no we had the wedding cake. But I needed icing, but having come through New Orleans I wrote a letter to Mrs

Leo Feldman and said could she send me some icing sugar. We, when we were in New Orleans, we had dinner at her house, which was a very palatial mansion. And so I just wrote her a letter and said I was getting married and I wanted some icing for the wedding cake, and oh great heap of it came over by parcel. So it’s, once again it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. So

that, yeah.

Well, that came in cans through the food parcels from home and, you know, jelly crystals and things like that, so I don't know whether we had that, I can’t remember, at the wedding. But no, it went off alright. I said that.

It was a borrowed one. I think the lass that she borrowed it from was Dwight Eisenhower’s driver. And the material came from the commander in chief of Europe’s operations at the time. So that was borrowed.

Don’t think anything else was borrowed. But...

We never asked. But it was there. I’ve forgotten her name now, but that doesn’t matter. Over to you.

Yes, right until the finish. And...

Well we were all, the squadron was disbanded, the aircraft went back to where they belonged or whatever, and that’s the last we saw of them. But I came home first,

by train to Southampton, we were put on board the [SS] Orion, the old Orient Line. We sailed from Southampton, got half way down the Bay of Biscay and it broke down, we had to go back again.

No, oh no, she came later on the old hospital ship, the [USS] Atlantis in June of ‘46. But that created a stir with the Orion going back with about two and a half

thousand troops, so we were shot, opened up a camp in Millom for some of us, Millom in Cumberland. So we get up there and we had leave, so we came back down to London. Why they couldn’t organise that, I don't know, better than that. But eventually they found the [SS] Athlone Castle, one of the Union Castle

lines that plied between South Africa, a much more modern vessel. And I think it only took about twenty-one days to get back to Australia, arriving in January 1946.

Yes, it stripped the gear, teeth on the turbines and it had to... I don't know whether it sailed again

but I think it was broken up eventually, because she was fairly old and not much maintenance done during the war anyway. So it’s rather ironic that we sailed down the Bay of Biscay where we had engine trouble on occasions and then had engine trouble with the Orion. So it didn’t worry us unduly, you know, we’re used to unusual

happenings. But yeah, I arrived back and Diana arrived in June 1946 on the Atlantis which was an old hospital ship. And she was fortunate, she had a cabin on that, whereas all the other war brides were in dormitory situation which, being a hospital ship, you know, it had

dormitories, or wards I suppose they’d have been called then.

That remains a secret.

Not, no, well there were but not through me. That was through her work with an advertising agency before the war, and they did a lot of work for

P&O [Pacific and Orient]. So often it is not what you know, it’s who you know.

We left oh, I think it was about first or second week in December 1945. We were, if we’d stayed on the Orion we would’ve been home before Christmas but

that wasn’t to be, so it was the sixth of January when we got back.

Different.

No, it was, took a lot of adjusting to really. For example there was, although there was rationing here it was not as severe as what we, the civilian

population in the UK were used to. We were pretty well off in comparison and yeah, so, well, it took me quite a long while to settle down really. But I wasn’t discharged until the end of April.

In England?

Yes, we were on Mount Batten. I think I mentioned that, you know, firing Very cartridges and the naval ships opening up with live ammunition. Yeah.

Very sketchy, but once the war finished in Europe it was more coming through.

I think we would’ve, had the Japanese not capitulated, through to the atomic bomb, we would’ve continued out here, I think the aircraft would’ve come out. But there were six Sunderland aircraft came out and operated in the Pacific for a limited time, and they were flown home by our crews. And there were also,

the New Zealand Air Force bought Sunderland flying boats and once again, through this situation, pilots and that, but they had no flight engineers at all. And they used flight engineers to bring from, Australian’s to bring them to New Zealand. One of them, Frank Kerrison, stayed in New

Zealand for eighteen months on training purposes. And I still correspond and speak to Frank on the phone, he lives in Devonport and he’s of course retired, health not too bright but he’s soldiering on, sort of thing.

There was a...

yes, there would’ve been a possibility I think. But I mentioned Keith Coward earlier, there were two of us. Keith had married a lass in Plymouth, and I was married, and I was never asked anything about it, I just stayed there, that was it. And when nothing’s happening, you never ask, otherwise they might wake up, oh, you’re still around.

Oh, the Athlone Castle was converted to a troop ship and we were allotted down in some hold, on what are called, ‘standease’. There’s a centre pole, and these chain wire things fold out and there’s a mattress and,

like a Christmas tree. And where we were allotted, we didn’t like it there, so we went on, reconnoitred, and we found what was the gymnasium. The swimming pool, the indoor swimming pool had been boarded over but the gymnasium was tucked away in the side, but there were these

standease things in there, but nobody else. The beauty of it was, it was air conditioned. So oh, about half a dozen or so set up camp in there and we had a meeting, and we were sworn to secrecy not to tell anybody where we were. And that worked, and we were in there the whole trip back, nobody knew we were there. Except on one occasion,

the ship’s captain had an inspection followed by underlings and then squadron leaders and what not. And we were sitting on, oh the floor had rubber, you know, it was quite easy to keep clean, and we were playing Monopoly and ‘course nobody... and they came in. And the question was, I don't know who said it, “What are you doing in here?” And

I think I said, “We’re playing Monopoly.” However that, they were quite happy with that, and they departed. And we were there the whole time, nobody woke up that we were there, and that was very comfortable. The showers were handy, because being a gymnasium, the showers were there. I don't know where the other guys went, I never enquired. But we were

hardly seen, and we were, you know, often asked, “Where are you?” And we said, “We don’t know.” So no, that was a very comfortable trip back.

Oh yes, yes, we did. Unlike the Orion, you swung a hammock above the mess deck table.

And the drill was you took a couple of dixies somewhere or other down and you got food into it. Well, from memory, there were ten seating but I forgot to mention that there was a walk-off at Southampton, a lot wouldn’t, refused to sail, whether it was they thought they were over-packed in or what. But instead of ten being on this table, there was only

I think about five, so we went down and drew food for ten men, see, and we shared a little bit with the others who were less fortunate. But as a, she broke down in the Bay of Biscay after a day and a half, we were off loaded, so that’s our trip back.

Oh, in the water.

Yeah, table cloth and everything.

Yes, they, we had a variety of cutlery and you know, crockery and things like that. From memory we always had a cup of tea with a saucer because it was pinched from some hotel somewhere in the UK that somebody brought back. And

no, it was quite good, we always had very good meals, as I mentioned earlier.

Oh yes, yes, oh, it was very proper. I can’t remember the table cloth bit but I think we did have one. Who laundered it or washed it, I don't know.

But it was always something extra.

Yes, yes, but they were scattered throughout the, we were not kept together. Whether it was by alphabetical order that, where they were put, I can’t remember now. But no, variety of, you know, from bomber command

or wherever they came from.

In a way, yes. I’d been away quite a long time of course, and well, that was it, and you just did what you were told, you didn’t have much... Some stayed on and did courses and some ended up in Germany, for some unknown reason, I don't know. But no, I decided to come home because I wanted to get

home to set up, and we eventually built a house in North Balwyn, where we remained for thirty-two years before moving down here twenty years ago last July.

At Princes Pier in Port Melbourne, there was quite a welcome of course. And...

my parents met me down there, which I hadn’t seen for nearly four years. And yes, it was quite traumatic really in a way.

Well, it seemed as if you were in a vacuum, things were

highly organised for you and that’s the finish of that, what do you do? And ‘course we were given leave straight away and eventually discharged. And, yeah.

Oh yes, yes, bit of a culture shock I think.

Yeah, no, for them.

Came out, yeah. January I got home and yeah, six months later and...

Well I got a job, in the engineering field of course with, well they manufactured watch cases actually, and transferred to another subsidiary of theirs. And 1960 I dropped that and went into sales and once again in the engineering field, and I remained with that company for eighteen

years and eventually retired in 1985. And I ran my own little business for a few years after that and finally had to retire, as I was telling Colin [interviewer] earlier, the reason for that.

Oh I see. Yes, the certificate or the diploma from the French Defence Department was for flying in support of the Normandy landings

and the liberation of France. The RSL [Returned and Services League] put me onto it, although I knew all about it because I met some French veterans at the Shrine on one occasion, and we were just talking and they said, “This should be available to you.” And I never did anything about it until the RSL got onto it and had the form there, which was filled in, and then, they’re thoroughly

vetted too to find out, you know, if it’s kosher. And yeah, that just came in the mail with an accompanying letter and, that’s right. And then of course, the other one is I’m a life member of the officers’ mess at Laverton, which I’ve, well, that’ll come through the Air Training Corps bit.

Well I joined the Air Training Corps as an instructor in 1950 and then I ended up a chief instructor of number one flight which was then based in Frognall, in Mont Albert Road which is the old Laycock family home. It was a mansion and it was

the Melbourne telecommunications and the engineer cadet squadron, which the young guys were trained at RMIT [Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology] and they were based at Frognall. So I remained there until 1968 when things started going up in the business world, I

just did not have the time, and I resigned from that. But I always remained as an honorary member of the officers’ mess there. Then into Coventry Street mess in there, when that closed, and now down at Laverton, which I go down probably once a month. And

they made me a life member, oh about three years ago, which is quite good.

Well you have to be proposed, and Wing Commander Peter Yates proposed me, and it was passed and that’s it. But Air Training Corps was a very, very

interesting time really. In the early ‘50’s we did not get a great deal of support from the service due to the Korean conflict and then Vietnam. And, but it’s totally different now. It’s not called the Air Training Corps, it’s the Australian Air Force Cadets. They’re supported

much better than we ever did. It was very difficult to get equipment and accommodation but there was very... I ruffled a few feathers, but we got by, we usually got what we wanted. And a very gratifying time. Out at Frognall we drew on a

good area school-wise, and we had some very, very good, young people and a lot went into Air Force Academy, and a lot of them ended up senior people.

Well, it was open to youths then, only, about fourteen to eighteen,

but I think they can go on, I’m not too sure, go on a little longer now. But it’s very, very strong and it’s an excellent training ground for young people. They get a little bit of discipline and it’s very good for them.

They are (available...UNCLEAR) now but not in my time. But...

Well them or us, or both?

Yeah, there was a parade once a week really and then there were bivouacs and camps in the school holidays. And yes, a wide variety of things

available to them that was excellent for them.

Just in service life. And you know, we used to have, put on films of interest, and once a week they had a parade and

oh, few other things, aircraft recognition, little bit of basic navigation and you know, things service-related really. And there I met, she was female entrance into the permanent air force, she came in as

an education officer, she transferred to engineering and she’s gone up through the ranks and now she’s an air vice marshal. But that was apart from cadets, that was just a chance meeting with permanent people there which was very good. And an interesting thing, when we went to Canberra, prior to going overseas, Veteran Affairs

asked me if I had anybody in Canberra that I’d like to invite to Government House, so I nominated her. But Air Marshal Houston was unable to go to Government House and he deputised Julie to go in his stead. And I think, little bit tongue in cheek she said, “I’ve already had an invitation through Ian Speirs.”

And no, that’s where I caught up. And I also said, now she has a husband and, David Dunlop, and he was there too. So hopefully we’ll see her the end of this month when we go up on the dedication of the two squadron plaques in the garden at the Australian War Memorial.

Yes, so, we’ll be up there for a few days, should be very enjoyable. So I’ve had a long, long association.

Air Training Corps.

I was a, the chief instructor for eight years at number one flight at Frognall. And as I said, you know, to

give it away through pressure of business, and I just did not have the time to devote to it, so regretfully.

Yes, the early ‘50’s, very early ‘50’s.

Not directly, not

directly at all. It was only with the auxiliary, with the young people prior. A lot of them did go into the service and they were better prepared for it, I think, going into, adapting earlier to service life, and they were dedicated.

Well, I think one of our cadets from the Air Training Corps, he, I think, was one of the initial pilots to bring the F1-11’s out from America . So he is now well retired as an air commodore, I think it was, quite a few years ago now, so from a young guy right through the service.

There were a few of them went on to that type of thing, was good, very gratifying, yeah.

Yeah, yes, in that age group, which was voluntary as far as they were concerned. And you know, we drew on good schools, Camberwell Grammar, Marcellin College and

you know, some of the better schools, that made a difference. But there were others too, there, that were very, very keen and they made good. And I think it prepared them for, if they went into civilian occupations, they were better prepared to, that little bit of soft

discipline. And more integration with other people on a different level to what they would normally do. No, it was very gratifying period really.

Oh yes, yes, very much so. As I showed you in the photograph there, that was at a drill competition down at Laverton, all those years ago with

the Minister for Air as it was, as he was then. Yeah.

Well they, we brought them up to a certain standard in the flight. And all flights country, and it’s quite a big deal that they normally have a weekend down at Laverton, prior

to being judged on the square, it’s quite interesting. Clothing is much better now than in the early days, as far as they were concerned, they wore boots, now they have very nice shoes. And much better material in their uniform which is supplied free to them, and they’re allowed to keep it.

They did get a little bit, but it’s interesting that you mention that. Today young people are becoming more interested, I find that. And, well for example down the road, there was a young

lad came up to me that he was doing a project at school and I gave him a little bit of background and he found it quite good, and now he has joined the cadets. So must have done something right. And he loves it, he, his mother was telling me he’s just taken to it like a duck to water.

And he reckons it’s great. What he wants to do in the future, he’ll just make up his own mind in due course. Don’t force them. Doesn’t usually work on everybody.

In the UK.

Oh, everything is totally different. Some of the old timers wouldn’t agree, and I don’t either, to a lot of things that are happening. But...

Well for a dining-in night, you were detailed to attend,

it’s not politically correct now. There are a few other things, but I’ll pass on that.

Mmm.

Oh, it brought people together more, apart from their job, really. But it may be incorrect to say it’s a nine to five

job, not all the time, not all the time, but services are very, very efficient now. All the main ones are all degree people. Of course you can go into the air force and do a degree at no cost to yourself

or the family, which is really something. And particularly in the engineering field, they seem to have every opportunity if they want to leave the service, they can get a job, quite easily. Pilots mostly go to the airlines, so it’s a different world, totally different. They retire younger I think. However, that’s an opinion.

Oh well, there has been, particularly with the jets. Metallurgy’s had great strides, and ‘course speed is enormous. Now even with the commercial jets, Emirates are going to fly from

Melbourne direct to Emirates, non stop, bypassing Singapore. I don't know the hours that they will put in doing that but that’s one difference. Fuels have got better. Whole new ball game.

Oh, a little bit. I’ve more or less given up keeping up with technology, it’s getting far too complicated, and ‘course they don’t use flight engineers any more, it’s all computerised, four back-up systems, and yeah, totally

new world.

Yes, yes. Mainly its faults.

Oh yes, well in it’s day

it was a very good engine but it was mainly built in shadow factories, and they were overhauled in shadow factories, and I think that created a few problems. And they were underpowered, for what we required, what they put on aircraft, weight-wise and you know,

guns sticking out everywhere and not a smooth flow. With radar domes underneath each wing, that slowed things up, and although fairly fuel efficient, they were much better when we put the Pratt’s in.

Well most of the Pegasus were originally Bristol Aeroplane Company,

but I believe a lot of them were made in the Humber motor car factory, which seemed to create a bit of a problem anyway. But...

Well that’s the name that they gave them, what would they call them now, a subsidiary sort of effort. Whether tolerances were

messed around a little bit, I don't know, but they were not quite as good as… In other words, in a lot of cases they were second hand, reconditioned.

I, at my age now, no, not really. I can’t think of anything that would be of general interest. But no, I really enjoyed the trip back for the memorial, that was absolutely great, I think there were two hundred and

forty, two hundred and fifty applications and only twenty-eight were chosen. And, but prelude to that was a nursing sister came here prior to that and then I don't know how the selection took place, I wouldn’t have a clue. There was another medical in Sydney to see if, you know, you were

fit to travel sort of thing and we were looked after very, very well by Vet Affairs, they were marvellous.

It was the dedication of the new Australian War Memorial in Hyde Park. It was mooted about eighty-odd years ago, but nothing was done, and well, if it hadn’t been done now it’d be too late for any of us I think. But

it was all Western Australia granite, about twenty-five stone masons worked over there for six months, although a lot of preparation was done here. But the logistics of it were absolutely excellent, we had no glitches whatsoever, except that it was a great hurry to get it finished in time, but they achieved that and it went off very well, very well

indeed. And full marks to Veteran Affairs for looking after us.

Well we went, one place we went to was Sutton Veny. We wondered what Sutton Veny was but during the First World War it was a recreation, and eventually a hospital for the

AIF [Australian Imperial Force] in France. And in the little church at Sutton Veny, where we were conducted around by the school children, Sutton Veny Primary, there are a hundred and forty-three graves of Australians. Rather surprising, but it was the Spanish flu, about 1918 that created

havoc. And one of these school children showed us one grave where the soldier was fifteen years old and another one sixteen, and they had been in France in the trenches. And it was, I think, the Spanish flu, tragically got them. That’s one of the highlights.

Yes they do, they look after them, well the Australian War Graves Commission oversee them. But the children there, handed down from generations of their parents, that Anzac Day and Armistice Day, as it is now, are celebrated with a little bit more than

most people do. It’s a very, very [big] eye-opener for myself and others that went there, it was really good. And we went down to Portsmouth also, to the naval memorial there which is the same as the one in Plymouth. We didn’t get to Plymouth unfortunately but we went down to,

went to the Tower of London and the naval memorial in London just near the Tower of London, so we went to the Tower of London. We also went down to Greenwich, funny little incident there. We were issued with a waterproof coat and they were black, and on the journey down the Thames we wore them because it was rather cold. Well we

wore them ashore but when we were having lunch, coats were off, and there was a family at the next table to me, he leaned across and he said, “Excuse me,” he said, “who are you?” I said, “Well we’re Australian veterans over here for the new war memorial in Hyde Park.” “Oh,” he said, “We noticed when you came off, you had these dark coats on,” he said. “We thought you were some queer religious group.”

And going down on the ferry they were an American couple from, oh, where the Mormon’s come from, Salt Lake City, the same question, “Who are you?” And I said, “It’s for the Australian War Memorial, the dedication in Hyde Park.” And I said, “You know, it’s one of these things it’s been a long time coming.” Well being an American she got quite indignant, she said, “And that is about

time too.” So there was a lot of interest. And at the ceremony on the 11th of the 11th, there was the general public behind us, and strangely enough they were mostly young people, which was very good, very good to see. And I noticed the Prime Minister went over and spoke to them, as well as.

And no it was quite an interesting ceremony.

It was, it really was, I often think about it.

It was. And yes, as we mentioned, you know, Channel Nine were here and The Herald Sun and The Age [newspapers] got hold of it too, so we had a very busy time. Yeah.

Not directly. But it, we were in the Captain Ontara Hotel, it’s Kensington, and Diana’s nephew, her husband and her niece came and had dinner with me one night in the hotel.

I had to get down to see a sister-in-law at Beckenham in, just outside London and I had to get a leave pass. And the two Veteran, a girl, a Veteran Affair’s girl, they gave me their mobile numbers in case I got into trouble. But no, I managed it alright, having been round London, but ‘course that’s changed since when I was over there.

But no, it was a wonderful trip, wonderful trip.

The Royal Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force Association. Yes, I’m president of the Sunderland group in Melbourne and been very

involved in the plaques that are going to be unveiled on the thirty-first of March in Canberra, which we’ll be travelling up to. They were cast just over here in oh, Oakleigh I think it is, and to the Australian War Memorial’s specifications and they are going to be mounted on a wall

and we hope to have the unveiling ceremony. There will be two, one cocktail party for the eighty-third anniversary of the formation of the RAAF in 1921, so we have got invitations to that. And there’s another function of which we haven’t found out about yet.

Yes it will and that’s being organised by the RAAF in Canberra with, our names have been submitted to make sure that we get an invitation.

Yes, I think I showed you the photo.

It’s just a brief run down

on the two squadron badges. One of them is, we called it the ‘Heartburn Herring’ but it’s not, it a chimera, it’s a northern deep sea fish, and it has an arrow through it, because our motto is, ‘Strike First.’ And 461 which was formed out of 10 Squadron on Anzac Day 1942,

they’ve got their crest. And the two of them are together and the whole thing’s been cast in bronze, with the appropriate thing to, well, to keep the thing alive really, for posterity. And so that’s going to be quite a ceremony.

Well I think that nobody thought about it.

And we decided to do something about it before it’s too late, which probably not too far away either. Yeah.

Well yes, it will be but prior to Anzac Day here we have a lunch over at RAAFA [Royal Australian Air Force Association], RAAFA in Cromwell Road, at the memorial centre.

Yeah, so there’s a few things coming up to be arranged. Yeah, can’t think of anything else you want to know.

Yes, hope I’ve filled in a little bit.

All off the cuff, as it were.

Probably, yes. Yes, if you had a briefing beforehand, it may not have come out as well, but I hope it’s been satisfactory.

I hope it’s the last.