Australians at War Film Archive

Can you first begin by sharing with me a brief overview of your life, where you were born to where you sort of finished up after the war for about five or 10 minutes?

Can you just briefly, that’s excellent what you’ve done, just briefly where you actually, you went to Canada, where you trained in Canada and then briefly just what happened in Europe and then we’ll come back in more detail?

I’ll just pause there until the phone, that’s all right, sorry.

I might just hold you there at Brighton because we don’t want to get too far ahead of ourselves, and come actually the whole way back to your childhood again, and now flush out some more information of what you’ve sort of given us an overview of. Okay, is that all right?

So just coming back now to Australia and your childhood, what are your first memories of growing up?

What sort of sports and games did you play?

Were you as a student, were you working towards something?

Did you want to become something when you left school?

Before we get to Bradfield Park, in respect to leaving school you were very much just waiting to come of age to join the war. Was that in your thinking?

Just let me ask you a little bit about your dad. The question is your dad’s war service, what did you know about that in respect to World War I?

So given your Dad was sort of working with ships and sugar as you said, transporting sugar from between Australia, Fiji, why didn’t he join the navy when the war started out for him?

Sorry, your Dad, did he apply for the navy?

Sorry. Maybe I’ve got the story slightly mixed. My understanding is your dad was working as a marine engineer.

Pre-First World War, in respect to transporting sugar from Fiji and Australia. He never thought of applying for the navy himself in the First World War?

So what did he share with you about his experiences during World War I?

Did your dad ever share stories of the tragedy of war, of mates and friends dying?

And the Military Medal which he won or was given, can you go into more detail of what he actually did to receive that?

He didn’t go through the story with you that you can recall?

Excellent. Anzac Day, before World War II: how important was that to you and your family?

Were you close to your dad growing up?

What sort of things did you do together?

Can you just describe for me and share with me what a Hornby railway is, the make up of it?

Exactly.

So the way the actual train functions is by winding it up, is it?

We’ll just stop there so that we can change the tape.

Keith, could you share with me the interest of the Meccano set and what it is?

Were there any crashes or accidents with one fellow on the bars?

Any particular radio programs you listened?

How did the Depression affect you

and your family?

Given that people were struggling to survive during the Depression was there much theft and robbery?

Your Mum, what was she like as a person?

Did your Mum encourage you to go to church with her?

Was there much religious feeling between Catholics and Protestants and those sorts of things?

Now war is beginning to brew in Europe, Hitler’s on the rise. During sort of the late part of the ’30’s what did you know about European politics and what might be happening?

So he really wasn’t seen as a,

up to the mid ’30s as a threat at all. He was someone who really had a grip on society, German society, in building it up. Is that what you’re saying?

So when did things begin to change in your understanding of what was going on in Europe?

You spoke briefly just of refugees coming, today obviously refugees come and the community has different reactions

to them. Was there any particular reaction from Australian society to these refugees coming here?

Now, when war was declared do you remember where you were?

Given that your Dad served in World War I, did he say anything to you about enlisting or not enlisting in respect of the war?

Why was that?

How did you broach the subject with your Mum when you finally did enlist?

So the air force were the first to get back to you before the navy got back to you I take it?

So the army never entered into your thinking?

Now you really, one of the first courses you did was the Morse code course, understanding how to send and receive messages. How long did that take you to actually get on top of the Morse code and understand?

And once you finished the course you never used it again?

Why was that? There was no need in the air force?

So when you were finally actually called up that was to Bradfield Park, was it?

Can you share the story from there, going to Bradfield Park and what happened?

Before you actually got to Bradfield Park do you remember what you packed to take with you?

And what were they trying to achieve in training you at Bradfield Park?

So was it you yourself that determined what you wanted to be, what category, or was it the board?

When we use the term pilot, did everyone want to be a fighter pilot?

What was it about being a fighter pilot?

Given that you were a country boy from Tamworth, did you have friends that you went in with at Bradfield Park or did you have to make new friends? How did you relate to people?

Now just before we move on from Bradfield Park the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor. Where were you at that stage? Had you gone to Bradfield Park or were you still working back in

Tamworth?

Did that change your perspectives of the war and where you wanted to go, instead of Europe, to the Pacific at all?

So after Bradfield Park, where did you go from there for training, or was that when you received the news of heading overseas?

Did your

parents see you off at all?

What did they say to you?

Now I understand that the navy boys, when you cross the equator do all sorts of things, pranks and makes fellows who haven’t crossed the equator to first time do these sorts of things. Did you guys get up to anything or put through anything as you crossed the equator from New Zealand to Pearl Harbor?

Okay.

Cause any problems, that’s right. Any submarine danger come up as you were travelling?

Did you have any sort of lifeboat drill at the time?

Do you remember what it was?

Excellent. Now

you’ve touched briefly on Pearl Harbor, but can you now just take me through just what the sights and sounds and smells of Pearl Harbor when you got into the harbour?

So how long were you actually there for?

And the reason you weren’t allowed off the ship is because everything was being reconstructed?

You guys never mixed with them at all?

Was anyone interested in meeting them, just to see what the enemy was like?

So from Pearl Harbor you went to San Francisco, is that right?

Just during this journey was anyone seasick or

crook?

Were you

crook then?

Now you’ve shared with us a bit about how you got to Canada, when did you actually start to get into training? Was that at Edmonton?

Now at this stage you hadn’t actually been up in a plane yet?

Okay, can you just tell me briefly about that?

So your dad didn’t go up with you?

Was five shillings a lot?

And did you get to meet Kingsford Smith?

Back to Canada, the gunnery

and sorry,

Bombing and gunnery course, can you tell me a bit about that?

I’ll actually just hold you there because the tape’s come to an end.

Sorry Keith, you were just telling us about the Avro Anson. Can you just describe a little bit more about how that plane was used in training again?

You had been designated a bomb aimer by this stage

rather than a navigator? When did that split

occur?

And was it a random thing? How did it happen?

I get a sense of how you felt about this at the time. I mean obviously as you said, everyone wanted to be a pilot, but then you’ve chosen to become an observer and now a bomb aimer. What were your thoughts on being made the bomb aimer at that stage?

What special skills did the bomb aimer need? You mentioned maths was handy?

The bomb sights you were using in training on the Ansons, were these similar to the ones you would use throughout

the war?

Can you describe, well, we’ll start with these ones you were using in training. Can you describe what they were and how they worked?

And how would you put those into the sight? What was the controls you had?

So can,

you’ve described it as an angle, what did it look like as a contraption? If you were looking down at one now how would you describe it?

Okay, two pieces of?

These are very good details

because the archive, as we mentioned before, is very interested in the details and this is not something we have a lot of already, so I might ask you a lot of questions. Take up mechanical details. The vertical part of the bomb sight had graduations on it, what were they? What was on the vertical part of the bomb sight?

That’s all right. It’s a long time ago. You missions then: of your standard training was to go out and bomb

a what?

What were the targets?

How accurate were those early bombing runs that you and the other observers?

Who were the pilots for these test runs?

Where were your instructors based? Were they on the ground with the target?

What were the types of things they were teaching you on the ground?

Were there any other pieces of equipment that you needed to use apart from the bomb sight we talked about already?

What was the set up? Can you just briefly describe what was at Lethbridge? You had classrooms

during the day, where were you sleeping, what were the conditions like?

How well prepared were in terms of uniform and preparations for dealing with the weather?

Apart from the hats though, you wore the Australian blue air force uniform?

Who else was on that course with you? I mean you must’ve been quite close to the other observers, you were training with them every

day?

Were there any particular mates that you made during your time in Canada?

Were you confined to the base all the time? What social or outside dealings?

What would you do in Lethbridge if you had an evening off?

What was

the local population’s response to all these air force recruits?

Was it gunnery at Lethbridge as well or did you go back to Edmonton?

Can you describe the gunnery course and what they trained you there?

What made that so difficult? What were the hardest things?

You mentioned how the cold was a bit of a shock to you. What were the conditions like up in the air? Was it worse?

Can you describe the flying suits you were wearing?

We’ll talk a bit more about navigation course in a moment, but the navigation computers is not what people today would imagine a navigation computer is. Can you just describe what you’re talking about there?

Come to the navigation course I might talk a bit more about that. What other things

shocked you? I mean you mentioned the cold was one thing the Australians had difficulty getting used to, is there anything else that surprised you about what you were now embarking on?

Well the discipline of the air force, the things that weren’t the same in Australia, or weren’t the same in civilian life.

Was there an element of Australian larrikinism to those recruits?

What was your reputation like with the Canadian air force?

There was no difference between the national groups, do you think, or the New Zealanders or the Australians?

What training accidents were there during your time training at all anywhere?

What safety precautions were there for trainees up in the air?

And what were you taught about baling out or what you might need to do?

That was the extent of it at the time?

How difficult was it to get out of the Ansons for example?

After Lethbridge you moved back to Edmonton for the navigation course, or where did you go for that?

What was the set up for the navigation course?

You already talked about how difficult that was, flying over snow, but how did you find your way around? What were you being taught about how to navigate there?

What was your personal success like at navigation?

What happened if you weren’t at the place you were supposed to be?

These are the same type of pilots you talked about before?

Was that dead-reckoning? Is that what we’re talking about there?

Were there any other types of navigation taught to you at any stage?

Were you taking star signs?

OK. How does that work?

You mentioned that navigation computer before and the sextant, any other pieces of equipment you were introduced to at this stage?

Why was it important to learn both navigation and bomb aiming? What was the role you were planning to be taking up?

Were there smaller aircraft still that you might be sent to that needed an observer that did both roles?

What did you know about where you were being prepared to be sent while you

were in Canada?

It was likely you’d end up in Bomber Command?

How did you feel about that, what did you know about what was going on in Bomber Command at the time?

It was a very dicey existence indeed at that stage. Were these figures released to you about the casualties?

Were there any failures in training,

any recruits that didn’t stand up to the task?

And what would be the basis of that failure usually?

How much of a problem was airsickness for you?

Was it ever a problem when you were up in a plane with other observers that they were troubled by it?

What could you physically do in a small training plane when someone was airsick?

There were none provided especially for that?

There were?

I can imagine your experience, a mail pilot wouldn’t have much truck for people being airsick in their planes?

What was your relationship like, recruits with other areas? For instance, you mentioned the ground staff and the mail pilots we’ve already talked about.

Who influenced you the most

during your training? Were there any instructors or mentor figures that stand out?

Any other events that happened at Edmonton while you were there that still stand out in your mind?

What were you impressions of Canada as to how it differed from Australia?

Obviously the physical

differences are huge. What about the people, the cultural differences? Is there anything that you found about Canadians?

For instance?

Any other expressions that come to mind?

It’s a great example. If any more of that kind of thing comes up it’s great to mention it because it’s not the kind of thing that gets recorded in history, the way people use their slang

or that kind of thing.

Any particular air force slang that you picked up while you were training?

What were they referring to?

OK, we’ll talk more about wizard prangs and dicey dos in a minute, but we’ll stop and change the tape before we do.

You mentioned before a rather impressive wings presentation, graduation. Can you tell us in a bit more detail about that

and what happened?

You’ve said that that was a particularly proud moment for you. What did it mean to have those wings on your chest?

Where did the expression silver wings in the moonlight come from?

And what were the words of that song?

Was there an element of glamour to having those wings?

And how were they looked upon by the young ladies or the others of non-aircrew people?

You mention after the graduation you spent some time travelling, 10 days travelling through the States, your uniform made you a bit of a rarity. Why was it that you were so popular do you think?

I’m sure you took great advantage of that. Any particular examples of hospitality that still stand out from that trip?

How evident was the war in a place like America or New York?

When you look back at those times now, especially that great time in New York, is that coloured by what was to come? Was it a last sort of hurrah of freedom and fun before you set off on something a lot more…

Were there any instances that you remember feeling apprehensive about what you were going in to do?

What was your parents’,

particularly your father’s, reaction to you receiving your wings? Did you have any cause to get mail or contact from them at the time?

Was there any sense that you had about their own feelings about you being away from the letters you got?

There’s something I might’ve missed when you were talking to Michael [interviewer] about your childhood, did you have any brothers or sisters?

And what about friends or family friends or people who’d gone away to serve as well? Were there any close people that you knew that were also overseas?

Is there a particular person that might not have come back that news of their death was brought to you at any time?

When did that happen?

Who was the person involved?

How did that news affect you and the reality of what you were doing?

Does your own sort of sense of

immortality waiver at all on hearing news of a personal friend had died?

I’ve heard other people say that, especially people involved in something as dangerous as Bomber Command and I find it quite difficult to believe, but I guess that’s something to do with being young?

Was there a sense that the young like yourself were somewhat better off in that respect?

What happened when you arrived in England? Can you take us through the story from there? You went from Brighton to the holding depot, what happened after that?

Were there

any air raids while you were there?

How did this new wartime setting affect you? As you said Canada and America had been peacetime by comparison?

What was the morale like amongst the population?

I’ve heard people say that despite those hardships it was somehow a better place in some ways as well in terms of how people treated each other and in

general.

What did you see of London when you arrived in England?

Did you go up there regularly from Brighton or what chance did you have?

What was the damage like in a city like London from the bombing?

Where did Australian servicemen go when you went to London?

What was that called again?

Codgets?

Where was that, near Kodak House?

How much did air force men or aircrew like yourself mix with other services, or did you mainly hang out with other air force people?

What do you mean by that?

They weren’t loyal to their own services?

Were you inexperienced in the ways of women at that stage?

And what did you learn

from being in London during the war or being in England?

How do you keep out of trouble?

Were the women of the same frame of mind do you

think?

How did you have

a good time? What things did you do?

Just to get a wider… social things, a question we always ask about the time, did you think that the hardships in wartime England contributed to a sort of moral relaxation, specifically amongst the sexual relations between men and women?

If somebody wanted to spend the night with a girl how would they go about doing it? Where would they go, were there hotels or what?

Was that something that air force men particularly looked for in their time on leave?

And were there places in London that renowned for that kind of thing?

You’d share it over the course of a night?

Right, OK.

Was that frowned upon or was that the kind of place you could get away with it?

We better move on. I’d love to talk more about these social issues but we have to get back to the story. Your

OUT [Officer Training Unit] came through to Litchfield or what happened next, go navigation training?

Just on the AFU, to begin with what were you being trained there, was that more bombing and gunnery?

You mentioned before the equipment you used in, the Ansons you used in Canada were different to what you’d be eventually using. Was new equipment introduced at this stage to you or you were still on the training?

OK. Any other things about navigating in England especially that were unusual?

Who was on this course now? Were they similar?

Or the same people who’d come from Canada or you had a mixing of different nationalities?

There before you went to the OTU then you were still pretty much an Australian group?

What happened then?

Who did you usually crew up with at that stage?

Was that crew then the crew you would end up flying with for the rest of the time?

And is that how it happened for you?

Did every member in your crew fit in? There wasn’t a misfit or someone who had to be changed?

Who were the main members of that crew? For instance, who was the pilot?

Can you tell us a bit about the different personalities that were in your crew?

What were the main activities that you mentioned there?

Your role within that crew was as bomb aimer. What did you do during that cross country (UNCLEAR)?

Where were you? Were you with the navigator or with the pilot?

We’ll just stop there. We’ll talk a little bit more about the Wellington and then about the Halifax.

So, just coming back to flying the Wellington during your training period, you were the eyes of the observer and navigator? Is that the case?

You just called what was actually coming towards you as far as landmarks were concerned?

You also mentioned earlier that it was important to be able to cover each other’s jobs. To what extent did you learn the pilot’s duties or the navigation duties?

So you’d get them in the general direction, is that what you’re saying?

Now you were, sorry?

Was that both you and the navigator?

At this stage, once you were up and flying in the Wellington with the other fellows, was there any thought, you stopped to think and say, “Well I could’ve been a pilot but I’ve chosen a different path”? Any regret in that respect?

OK. So you were training in the Wellingtons. Was that what you were about to

go and fight with?

During this training period were you also practising with the bomb sight and dropping dummy bombs?

Can you talk us through some of those exercises?

Now the bomb sights you shared with us earlier in Canada,

was that…

Exact same one?

OK. So what happened after this training period on the Wellington? Where did you go from there?

This is the first time you’ve actually gone onto the Halifax to start to train as a crew?

The same number of people, five?

How did you meet these two other guys? Were they assigned?

So it’s a crew of seven now?

Has anyone had any operational experience?

And from what country, are we talking mainly Australian New Zealand or?

So how long was this process of changeover to a four-engine?

So given that was the call,

where would you be? Would you be strapped in at some position?

So again you’d be up the front?

Was there a call that the pilot would make?

Do you remember the first time you guys practised this?

You were strapped in I take it?

And then how does a pilot actually pull the plane out of, I take it it’s sort of a backward dive?

The gunners, did they actually have firing practice at anything at all to…

Similar to your early training in the gunnery course?

Excellent. Can you just walk me through this particular aircraft, the Halifax, where everyone is situated as if we’re climbing in and walking down the fuselage?

And where were those two positions?

Did the rear gunner and the turret gunner ever

swap positions?

And your position? I mean you didn’t have a gun out the nose or anything like that?

So I mean your particular job is bomb aiming obviously. During a trip over, what would you actually do during that time?

Yeah.

Okay. Can you share with me why it was called the

H2S?

Now also with the Halifax, the bomb aiming here, was that similar to the Wellington and the Avro Anson?

They’re exactly the same, no different?

Given the plane is so much bigger, you’ve now got four engines instead of the Wellington’s two, does that change any aspect of your job in aiming?

You mentioned earlier that in Canada you sort of got reasonably close in bomb aiming on your second drop and then your third drop you were completely out. Had you sort of narrowed things down and were able to drop your load closer

to what you were aiming for in training?

Was there a system that you’d worked out to get it more precise?

So how would you work out such as your wind speed and directions? Was that coming straight from the pilot?

Sorry, could you share with me how you would do that?

So in a sense, if I could summarise what you’re saying, you’re trying to work out particular things on the ground such as movement left or right?

Features, so water?

OK. So are you saying to me to work out wind speed you’d use the H2S or you’d use the bomb sight?

Okay. I know,

Yeah, I know memory is hard at the moment, but if I could just ask, given it’s night time, can you actually see particular things other than cities down below you?

So you’re not actually looking for landmarks then for wind speed?

So to judge your wind speed to drop your bombs is a very difficult thing?

OK. We’ll come to that then in a moment. After your training then, this initial conversion training, what happened from that point?

So who did you actually know on arriving there, anyone in particular?

So just coming to this, how many crews were there already at 466 Squadron?

And were you the only new crew to be assigned or there were several others?

And what was the deal with the plane? Had you already been given a new Halifax plane or when did you receive an actual aircraft?

Just before we get to operations, since you have a love and know so much about the Halifax can you compare, was it the Mark 3 to the earlier one?

Could you just contrast the two of them for me?

Now in respect to your particular role on board during that month of training,

again coming back to the bomb sight. Was that all the same again to what you’d been training on?

So you’re therefore, if I understand you correctly,

saying provided you put the right information in, it was pretty foolproof in getting in right?

And again the information you’re looking for is wind speed?

And direction.

And just in respect to the direction information, that just comes from the pilot in respect he gives you the line of direction he’s flying?

The navigator, I beg your pardon, the

navigator.

Excellent, excellent. Now just in respect to coming into 466 Squadron, given that you were the new blokes on the block were people friendly and welcoming or…

… or they wanted to keep their distance?

Now your first, is it mission? Is that the right [word]?

Operation, thank you. Your first.

Your first operation, could you talk us through from the point of receiving the news that you were going on the next one and what happened from there?

His job was a bit of guess work then?

You just mentioned in respect of your role, the order of bombs?

What was the other thing, also the approach to target, was it?

Excellent. We’ll just, sorry, we’ll just hold there I was going to say because the tape’s coming to an end.

All right Keith, welcome back. Before lunch you were telling us about the procedure leading up to taking off on an operation with 466 Squadron. What happened once you finished the briefing? Can you take us from when you went out to the aeroplane, what happened from then?

What’s the feeling like in the crew at that stage? How would you describe the tension or excitement, or butterflies?

You mentioned you’d wet the tail wheel, what was that all about?

How much was superstition and how much was practical necessity?

What would happen if the urge called while you were in the air? What provisions did you have for going to the toilet on a Halifax?

You avoided it, why?

Where was it situated?

And it was a sit down toilet?

What other

superstitions were there in your crew? Anybody else have lucky charms?

How did you do that?

What was its name?

What sort of decoration or personalisation did you have on your aircraft?

How common was that in the RAAF squadrons?

What sort of things would people put on the nose of their aircraft?

I haven’t seen so many Australian ones. I’m interested to hear you say there were Australian animals or bushrangers. Was that particularly a common theme in the Australian squadron do you think?

What about naming them, you had a code letter?

Was Peter a particularly good aircraft?

On the subject of superstitions, was that a lucky or an unlucky thing to do, to take out somebody else’s aircraft?

What time would you be generally leaving as you took off from Litchfield?

And your targets were generally where? How far did you fly in most cases?

What was your first operation? What was your target that night?

What happened once you’d left the ground? Can you take us through that operation from there?

You must’ve thought this was a pretty easy game?

Maybe you could take us through as you were before with the lead up to the take off. What really happens in the plane on your way over to a target

and what happens when you get there?

How did that intercom work? Were you all hooked up to the same, everyone could hear everyone else?

What about headgear? Were you wearing headphones?

Would you be able to move around the plane with oxygen? How did that work?

Otherwise it went into a central oxygen tank?

What else would

happen on the way over, once you’d done all the things you just mentioned?

What was the standard procedure if a fighter attacked you then, if you weren’t to attack it back?

Is the gunner dependent on where the fighter is attacking from, so the rear gunner or the mid upper gunner is giving those instructions?

Your particular

Halifax didn’t have a nose gun in it?

You never had to aim your gun?

Your station if you like was in the nose of the aeroplane but you were helping the navigator during the flight, is that right?

And what would you, where would you be inside the plane?

Would the radar be the H2S you were talking about before?

That would be a purely navigational aid I’m assuming. You wouldn’t be able to see black or anything come from below?

What was your targeting? How did you locate your targets? You mentioned the Pathfinder squadrons before. Can you tell us about them?

What method of marking targets were there?

I’m sorry, could you just explain that again? What do you mean by bracket creep? Why was it called bracket creep?

And that was?

I understand. So how would the aircraft be in contact with the master bomber?

And there was other outside communication coming in the whole time, the wireless operator?

You mentioned that the Pathfinders would drop flares onto the target if you could see it. What if there was cloud?

What would they do then?

All right, back to the approach of the aircraft to the target. If you could take us through that in a bit more detail, what would your job be as you got near the target, what would you have to do then?

This was what replaced the two lines you spoke of on the Mark 10 gun sight?

It was a cross on the projector? What method of communicating with the pilot did you have about what directions you would fly?

So would you always repeat the word twice in the case of…

And the same with right, left, right?

What would happen if there was a variation during

that time and it didn’t look like you were going to hit the target? Did you ever have a…

We’ll pause for a second while the phone rings. I can imagine you would’ve loathed having to do that?

On what occasions did you have to go around more than once? How many times in your…

Was there a tendency to want to drop your bombs anyway? Who was in charge of that?

Was there ever a case when you were under fighter attack while over target?

Having to switch between the gunners and the bomb aimer having to tell the pilot what to do?

What could you see around you when you came over a target? I mean you could see the flares but what else was there?

Was it something that occurred to you at the time, that this was a beautiful scene?

It seems almost surreal in a way.

What about the sounds up there? What sounds are in your ears at that moment?

How were they referred to? Were they boxes or what would you call the flak?

And what would it look like from the aeroplane?

What about those spoofs or things that you were talking about a moment ago, coloured things that were sent up, what were they?

In a large raid would you notice things, other aircraft around this area?

Would planes come back from raids after that had happened or was that generally…

What sort of damage would you generally undertake if you got hit by flak?

You mentioned the first couple of times you went out you didn’t hit much opposition. What sort of opposition did you encounter from fighters or what instances?

What happens in the aircraft? What was it like when you went into a searchlight?

You mentioned being blinded? Literally blinded?

And the pilot would corkscrew? What manoeuvres would help you get out of it?

What happened on that trip to Stuttgart, did you encounter searchlights there?

What was your greatest fear up there?

What were you most afraid of?

What about excitement or adrenaline, how did that affect you?

Well stop there because the tape’s about to run out.

This is your diary, is it?

Let me throw a question and then you can introduce it. As your diary, can you share a bit about what that passage is and then read it out for us?

Excellent. Now you talk about how the Pathfinder force wasn’t particularly accurate.

What happened on that particular occasion?

In respect to, we were talking before about your job finding out

the wind speed, getting the direction right for your actual bombing, did the lead aircraft at all share those details with you of what other planes should put in?

So base in a sense confirmed or didn’t confirm any information you were sending back

about winds?

Good.

In your particular diary you mention that fighters attacked you three times on the way home. Can you talk me through those occasions and how they came at you?

During this particular return home did you actually go into

the corkscrew?

On these three particular occasions did the fighter lose interest?

So was there cloud cover at all to help you guys?

And never underneath?

Because I presume that

underneath was in a sense your blind spot?

What year did they actually come in and become a real threat?

Were there occasions on these fighter attacks where the cannon shell actually went

through the fuselage or did they mainly miss you?

Just before lunch we were discussing targets and you shared with me the type of bombs and bombing of cities or factories and cities, also the German rockets that would take off towards London and there are some

other places that you also mentioned off tape in respect to bombing, railway lines and other sorts of things, targets that you would bomb. Could you just run through the types of targets and bombs you’d use?

And you also laid mines I understand?

Could you tell me about that

and how that was different from normal?

From your point of view in dropping the mine, is it the exact same process?

Sorry?

What sort of height are we talking about?

Did you have to be as accurate as you were?

You’ve mentioned with high explosive, mines, are there other sorts of types of bombs that you would actually drop?

Good, excellent. D Day is approaching and I understand you were returning from one of your trips and you actually saw the ships?

Can you describe where you were returning from and what you actually saw?

So before you actually saw that sight you knew about D Day, what had actually happened?

And just coming back obviously to the diary, which you read, you dropped down low to 2,000 feet. Was that because of cloud cover?

Does that therefore require a re-setting of the bombs to their distance of dropping?

And so what you describe there in the diary is

when you dropped them you actually felt…

And obviously if you’re lower you’re going to be far more accurate as well?

And a better target?

Right.

And a better target I take it?

Sorry, I mean when flak is shooting at you, you’re a better target for the enemy to shoot at?

Okay. And so heavier flak wasn’t as accurate as the lighter flak I take it?

Just on that subject of the master searchlight, was there an occasion in which you guys got caught?

You also mentioned earlier the fact that the gunners would lose their night vision if they got…

Was that also a case for you given that you’re looking down upon targets that you’d lose your night [vision]?

OK. If we can now, if you would be kind enough to share your story of where you got hit, the plane actually got hit and you parachuted out, from the point of the actual briefing for the operation?

Just a couple of

questions in regard to all that. You mentioned that you checked to see that all the bombs had actually been gone and then you asked the engineer to…

And it’s not likely that a bomb could have, if there was one there, blown up.

You mentioned way earlier in the interview to Chris [interviewer] about the theory of parachute practice and going through what was required, and I take it in a sense you jumped out, 10 seconds

and then you pulled

Given obviously you were blacked out or unconscious,

how did your chute actually open? Do you know?

Does he, I mean is there a response then to radio back home to tell everyone that a plane’s gone down or does he keep silent?

So basically the aim really was just to get back, full stop, not worry about someone else who’s been hit?

Just before we talk a bit more about landing and what you did from there, in respect to Stuttgart, had you bombed Stuttgart since your third operation?

Even though you’d had a rough time last time at Stuttgart?

Given that you’re an easy target? Is that what you’re…

How is it different to the night?

We’re now coming back to your…

Was there a reason they didn’t fly at night?

Just coming back to your particular story now. You’ve landed on the ground after parachuting out. What was your response, what did you do next?

We’ll just pause there because we’re at the end of a tape.

What was in your escape kit? You mentioned you had one.

Which of those

items came in the most handy when you were on the ground?

Was it filled with water?

No.

2 o’clock in the morning, you’re in the middle of a field. Is that right? What did you do next?

What affect did that

cigarette have on you?

You’d been reading the map in the air. Did you have a fair idea of where you were?

And where was that?

What did you, how much did you think about what had happened to rest of the crew?

When much later on that blanking stopped, was there a moment that it dawned on you what had happened?

I mean not dawned on you, do you know what I mean? It became real.

Once you finished your cigarette what did you do?

Water, where did you find water?

Any other injuries?

When you were in this wood, did you see anyone or have any idea there were people around?

Did you mention a

compass among the things that you had?

This second night, what happened?

What were you wearing?

You had a white sweater?

How were you deciding where you were headed by this stage? Were there any other signs of where you were?

What was the attitude of the man who picked you up once he established your identity?

What happened at the local police station?

How much did

you, could you understand about what was going on during this time?

How much did that hostility and indeed the devastation in Stuttgart give you pause to reflect on the consequences

of what you’d been doing up in the air?

How much training had you been given on what to do in an interrogation centre?

And what was that?

What was your name, rank and number at the time?

Were you individually interrogated?

What was your response to this?

What was the most extreme piece of information that he’d give you?

Were you conscious of the need to sort of remain poker faced during that, or what was your response when you were told this information?

Were there any other interrogation methods used? Was there ever a threat of violence or anything?

Who were the other blokes that had been shot down?

And where were you headed? When did you find out about what would happen to you?

You mentioned when you were first captured you were resigned to becoming a prisoner. Can you take us through that mental change. How did you feel now that you were obviously no more part in the war, taken out of the game?

From looking at the Germans you came into contact with, do you think they shared the view that the war was over or they sensed that they were going to lose the war at that stage?

The older Germans you mentioned, how was their resignation to

defeat or something along those lines reflected in their treatment of you, do you think?

Just to give me an overview, how many camps were you in over your time as a prisoner?

Two, Bankhaur and?

Luckenwalde. So Bankhaur first, can you just describe what was going on at Bankhaur when you arrived?

What were the, how were you fenced in? What were the defences like at this camp?

Were they escape attempts or mistakes?

You mentioned there was another one?

What was the organisation for the Allied prisoners? How was their chain of command and such within the camp?

I’ll just stop you there because we’re about to run out of tape, but we’ll hold that thought for a second.

So had the Red Cross been notified that you were at Bankhaur?

So did you send or receive mail at any time?

Given your mother’s desire for you not to go to the war, do you know what her reaction was when she received news?

I’ll just get you to watch your foot, (UNCLEAR) wood might get picked up on the audio. So how long had you been in the POW camp, the Bankhaur camp for before you were moved.

Given that some of the men obviously smuggled in the radio that you were hearing broadcasts from, to what extent was the search done on you?

So what items could you take into the camp?

During your initial interrogation you said you had your watch, you had everything taken including your watch and other sorts of things.

Did you ever get those personal belongings such as your watch back?

What mail did you get from either your unit, the squadron or even from home?

What were they telling information wise?

You mentioned that when new fellows came in everyone lined up to see if they recognised them, was there anyone that you knew from the squadron?

Could you tell me about them?

You also mentioned during your interrogation they had an enormous amount of information on you and your squadron and there could’ve been German spies in amongst the men. Was there any likelihood of having German spies in amongst the prisoners to glean

information?

Did you hear of…

Excellent. Now the Russians are on the advance. What news did you receive from those who listened to the BBC about this?

Did you have to take your own food or food was being supplied?

So the German guards would allow you to kill the livestock?

Given that there wasn’t much food and some blokes would have more than others, did fellows share or was there a bargaining

system?

Meticulously shared in?

How many fellows were on this march?

You mentioned obviously the Germans telling you you had three warning before they shot you if you tried to escape, and they gave you two. Did anyone try and escape?

Just as a

sidetrack slightly, the Russians, what were your feelings towards them?

It’s funny, you use the word ‘protective custody’ when you were a couple of weeks ago

prisoners under their guard.

How long was this march for and where were you going?

You mentioned the conditions, I mean the snow, the mud and

earlier you also mentioned that you got a new pair of boots from the Red Cross.

So there was theft amongst…

So was there ever an occasion when someone got caught pinching something?

Was it attacked at all?

And the five gallon drums, what…

Sorry?

Could you just describe for me how that actually operated?

I’m thinking five gallons is this big by this big. Is that right?

And no heating provided whatsoever?

And where did this train end up?

The de-louse process, does that mean your clothes were washed?

In this particular

camp, were all the inhabitants intermixed? Were you with the Russians?

I take it at this point a lot of your body weight would’ve been lost?

You could see Berlin?

Would you use the word you were freed in a sense?

I’ll just hold you right there at the escape point because we’ve just got to change.

What happened when you decided to escape from the Russians? What did you do?

I’ll just stop you for a second there, just pat your hair down for a second. Who were you with, when you say ‘we’, who are we talking about?

When you say bike, what sort of bike are you talking about?

One between eight of you?

What happened when you were given a warning shot and went back?

What was in the American section of the lines? How long did you have to stay there, what did you do?

You wouldn’t have had much to do with Americans in

the rest of the war, is that right? Is this the first time you’d sort of been with a group of Americans?

What did you do then, after a couple of days spent there?

Where did you end up?

Who did you write to when you got the chance to write a letter?

Had you been given the chance to write in Bankhaur and these other camps?

Did you ever see that bicycle again?

You’re finally free, how did that feel and how was the dawning realisation that you were out of confines and out of camp?

You said it was a strange feeling in a way to be free. Was there anything you wanted more than anything else now you could sort of have

things again?

A lot of prisoners of war talk about having a little bit of difficulty relating to people after they’ve come out of incarceration?

You didn’t feel you’d been locked up long enough for that to have something, any problems?

What were your ambitions at this point? I mean the war with Japan was still on back in Australia.

Was that something you looked forward to or something you accepted or you didn’t want it at all?

Had you had enough of war by this stage?

When did you eventually get mustered to

return to Australia?

When did you eventually get sent back to Australia? What was the sequence of events?

How did you eventually get back to Australia?

What did you find when you

came back? Where did you arrive in Australia?

How was the response on seeing you from your parents?

Why did you feel that that was something you needed to do?

It’s a very

solemn and sad task I imagine to be the bearer of that news, but was it comforting to their parents? How did they react?

It might be a slightly strange question, but what’s it like to be the only one left out of a crew?

Is it more difficult, or how do you account for your own survival in some way?

A lot of people in similar situations

might be drawn to draw conclusions from their survival or perhaps feel guilty about it. I mean what emotions have gone through your mind in the many many years since?

Did you have an extra urge to get on with your life, do you think, because of your survival where others didn’t?

Your feelings on leaving the air force?

So the only way was to get on. You went back to civvy street. How did that, was it a smooth process for you?

How did it go?

Just a question that was brought up during the break and something that must’ve gone through your mind when you came back. Australia had gone through a very different war to you.

I mean you’d been sent off by your country to fight and you fought in Europe and you’d been a prisoner of war. They’d been fighting the Japanese.

They hadn’t been invaded but there’d been a threat. How were you and your kind who went off to Europe seen do you think by the Australians who stayed at home?

Did you encounter any of that ignorance or animosity when you came back to Australia?

On the flip side there, their sleeping conditions were worse.

All right. We’re coming to the end of the interview so we’ll have to sort of start wrapping it up.

One more question that comes out of what we’re talking about about the different wars that went on, Australia’s relationship with prisoners of war is based mainly on the experience of the 8th Division and those who ended up prisoners under the Japanese. How do you as a prisoner of war in Europe relate to that and the fact that your story in a way has been lost in many respects when people talk about Australian prisoners of war?

How has that affected the way in which you might talk about your own experiences, especially around other Australian servicemen?

On the subject of just talking about the war, today you’ve done a lot of it. Obviously you’re quite comfortable talking about it at this distance. Has that always been the case? How

much have you talked about your experiences?

Was there ever any nervous trouble or tension, stress, trauma that you suffered after the war?

Did you seek any help or how did you deal with it at the time?

When you think about the war today with all the many many years of hindsight that you have, what are the things that come to mind? How do you feel about it now?

I guess that my question was also on the personal side of your own war experience. When you think about that now, how did it change you as a person? What did it do as far as you’re concerned?

We’re at the very end of the interview, only a couple of minutes left, but is there any last words or any message you’d like for someone who might be watching this in 50 or 100 years’ time?

What do you mean by that? Can you expand on that a little bit.

Which means?

I guess then the very last question to talk about is was it all worth it, briefly?

Right, well we’ll have to leave it there because we’re very

literally out of tape but thank you very much for talking to us today. It’s been a great pleasure. From me and from Michael and everyone, thank you very much.