Australians at War Film Archive

Alright, it’s only a few years y’know. 1920 I was born in Camden. I was the first of the twins. My twin brother Len, he was five minutes later. We had gone through life like that,

he was a bit slower than I was, which you might be able to understand getting through this story today. Anyhow from there, at Camden I went to the convent school, there we went to school there and no shoes or anything like that because we didn’t have them but that didn’t matter but you lined up of a morning and you had to show that your fingernails were clean and your feet were clean, that was the main thing before school started. I was there until I was thirteen years of age and it was through the Depression so then I

left school and went to work at a green grocer’s shop. I worked at the green grocer’s shop for five shillings a week up to three o’clock on Saturday afternoon, you know it wasn’t a bad effort. Only a little bloke and carrying cases of bananas and bags of potatoes and all this sort of thing, but anyhow then that was 1933. 1935 I went to Sydney to work, I worked at Westbrook at Masons ladies shoes and I was in the warehouse up there and

from there it was four years later the war came and I was accepted and I went into Greta camp in 1940. Greta camp we did various camps all around the Sydney area and that which I can tell you more about later on, and from then we also we went to New Guinea and New Britain during the war, then after the war I went back and

lived down at Marrickville. I was married in 1948, Marrickville and then five years later, five, six years later we went up to Greenacre and lived up there were we lived for forty odd years. I worked after the war where I was working at Westbrook at Masons I didn’t stay there long and I went and worked with another army mate of mine down at EW

Pipe Fittings at Marrickville and from there with the electricity strikes and everything I ended up becoming a barber. Another army mate, he taught me to be a man’s hairdresser, so I did that, and then later on, when The Beatles came along well that was the end of it, mucked things up properly so I ended up on the waterfront, on security, what they called “the watchie” and they were my last working years and I retired in

1985 and then ten years later moved up to Anna Bay, and I have been here ever since. Not complaining about anything, I’ve been a lucky boy.

From different camps and that?

And what we did?

During the war, with the different places I said we did different camps. We were at Greta and there for three months, well not quite three months because we went down to Garie Beach to do some work on the

beaches around there and then I left for three months, went back to work, and it was in June that I was called up again and went into Glenfield camp. Well at Glenfield camp we were in tents and it was in the winter time, June as you can imagine it was pretty cold out there, no hot showers or anything and we were there, did a lot of work and went out and did other jobs in the area and then we were transferred

and we went over to Ingleburn camp. We never got out again, that was it. We were in forever. So at Ingleburn camp we did a lot of work there, going around fallen trees and learning different things and on bivouacs and that sort of thing. And after Ingleburn we went up to Wallgrove, we were in camp there and we’re also doing bivouacs, and then after that, we went down to

St. Ives camp and at St. Ives camp it was a big change that, another major, officers went, new majors, new officers, new NCOs [non commissioned officers], all this sort of thing changed at St. Ives camp. And from St. Ives camp, I went and did a demolition school up at Campbelltown, with the demolition school and then I found out that we were going to go away, so I got permission to leave there and go back to the camp. Anyhow

the other boys arrived before we left and we did, we went away to New Guinea, and up in New Guinea we started off we went up the coast, up the Lakekarmu River Bulldog [Bulolo] and from there we had to put a supply line over the mountains, right through the swamps down below and go up over the top, we reached up to heights of ten thousand, two hundred feet, up there very cold and wet area but, that was it, things it had to be done,

and you just had to go where you was told to go in the army. We went there then we went down further down to Wau we also put a supply line through there, right through to Labu which was opposite Lae. Well anyhow from there, we were going to come home, cause it was two years we had been there, but, anyhow something happened with one of the division mob, some of them shot through up in

Townsville area, so they sent us then, instead of sending us home they sent us over make a landing at Yakano Bay in New Britain. Well we were only there for a short time in New Britain and then we went home. We went home, and from there after leave, went down to Wagga to Kapooka camp, the engineer’s camp. They put us through an assault course and none of us could get through it. They found out we were not fit enough medically fit as a

unit so the unit was broken up. And from there some of them went to Bougainville, some of us went back to Lae. But before we went back to Lae, something happened they dropped the bomb and we didn’t know but we were supposed to be going to Java, to make a landing there, and instead of that when they dropped the bomb, it made a lot of wives and mothers

happy. They had their sons and husband back. So from there they said, “Righto then you still got a bit of time”, so we went back to Lae and worked around Lae, and then only there for about six, seven, eight months and then we came home and I was discharged on the 7th of, the 8th of May, 1946. Six years in the army.

Right.

Well

Camden it was such a beautiful village it was, and with it the first things I can remember really, is that going to school at the convent and, it was something I enjoyed. I enjoyed school, I enjoyed exams, I thought they were great, you had plenty of time to do them, and all that sort of thing so, with that at school and there was a nun there, a sister,

Sister Joseph, she was a wonderful woman. I think she was one of the best women I have ever known on this earth. And she had a beautiful singing voice, and she would sing the choir. My sister played the organ, my cousin played the organ, my brother played the violin and I played the violin. And when I wasn’t up in the choir, I was an alter boy at Camden. But they were great years,

but then at 13 years of age I said I left school, well it was Depression time and I worked at this green grocer’s place and they had two shops, and it was pretty hard work because I was only about five foot three or something, and unloading his truck from the markets, carrying bags, boxes of bananas, big boxes, bags of potatoes and that you know, but anyhow didn’t kill me, worked till

three o’clock there of a Saturday afternoon, five days and Saturday afternoon. From there.

Right.

Well, at Camden with the schooling well you’d get

up and off to school, we’d shoot through up through a lane and up through another mate’s place to make it short and also when I was an alter boy there, we used to get up and we used to have mass at seven o’clock in the morning and I’d get up and I’d say, “Holy hell, I’d better get moving”, and just run from there right down to the church to get there on time but

Oh, it would have been,

oh, over half a mile, over half a mile it would have to be, yeah. But with it what we used to do there, we used to play cricket down in the paddock, those days and also we used to go swimming down at, Little Sandy it was called, and we used to go swimming down there, all of us and with it, and the girls gave me the job, when they were going up in the bush to get dressed again I had to

be the watchman there to keep all the boys away, those sort of things you know.

I don’t know why I got that job, it must have been because I could talk to girls or something like that, well say it was that anyhow you know, but with them they said, “No Leslie you look after, keep the boys”, “Oh, righto then”, so that was it. But with play and that also before I left the school we had a cricket match against

the public school, and the Sister said, “Righto Leslie, you’re got to be the captain”, then we played the Banardo Boys football and she said, “You’re got to be the captain”, so must be just that I had something to do, you know that women said, “Oh he’s a good little boy, he’ll do the right thing”, didn’t change either. But anyhow from there, lets see, football, my cricket, yeah we joined the cubs and the scouts

and that was a great time, Gordon Butler was the scout master and cub master and it was a great time in the cubs and the scouts, you learned the Morse code and you learned how to tie the knots and everything and all this sort of thing and it was great time because as you can imagine this is years ago, there wasn’t any TV [television] and there wasn’t any wireless around so you had something to do there, and Camden I still go back there now and then whenever I go to Sydney I try and get back to Camden because I

think it is still a wonderful place and so many memories from Camden, mates, there is only a few of them living there now. I just have one cousin living there now. All the rest have gone or gone to other places but most of them have passed away.

I would have been, about ten I suppose, ten or eleven when I joined, ten when I joined the cubs, and I suppose from then on well you went to the scouts I suppose about twelve

or something like that you went into the scouts, I just can’t remember it is a long time ago but it would have been about ten years of age that we went into the cubs and that. From then I said the things that I learnt there I still say helped me when I got into the army, it was just whether it was the discipline side of it or that sort of thing I don’t know but I think it was a help to me even though I went in as a sapper and I, definitely, and I came out as a sapper, so I was a pretty good soldier.

A sapper in the engineers is like a private in the infantry, and a sapper is just is like that see, they don’t call them private you call it a sapper and that’s how it is in the engineers, yeah.

Well there was something about her,

she had that mother instinct I feel in her you know because, she was there. Also there was one day I didn’t tell you about. I used to carry the violins at school and one of the boys from the public school, his father had a butcher shop, and he used to call me “sissy” and all of this sort of thing, well I used to get a bit cranky about that. Anyhow we were going to have a fight one day up near the paddock near the Town Hall, so Sister Herman said “Well

Leslie you bring the gloves”, because we had boxing gloves our family, so bring the gloves in and you can practise with me. So that’s what she did, put her hand up there and I had to keep on hitting straight and everything and she said, “This is what you got to do”. So anyhow it worked out because he ended up with a very bloody nose and cried and went home and he was a lot bigger boy then me, so Sister Herman had to be a favourite of mine for that part. But other things as well you know it was just that

she had that motherly instinct and she had such a beautiful voice you know, that you couldn’t help and I never, ever seen her get upset at all. You know you had to be at school them days and you had to hold the pen the right way, the pencil it was, the right way and make sure it was pointing over your shoulder, if not you would get just a little touch with the ruler on your hand. It wouldn’t hurt, but just to let you write, do this and the way you had to sit and everything you know the training that she gave you,

I think that also helped you through life. It was a wonderful time at school.

Oh well, arithmetic was one of my favourites with it. And English, don’t worry about the way I talk now, will you?

Anyhow, with it I liked that English, the English, the grammar, and arithmetic I liked, especially the figures part of it,

I did like arithmetic and

Oh yes yes yeah, I was dux of my class at times and dux of this and dux of that and you know different subjects and that sort of thing and that and I support I think Sister Herman must have been on my side there.

No, only with that

one, with the one the lad from the public school because I had to carry a violin well them days too it was thought about a bit of a sissy playing a violin you know, can’t blame him for that, but anyhow that used to upset me but apart from that no the size, the size never worried me, it never worried me at all you know and of course, with the brothers and that we used to have fights and that. I remember at, one of my brothers died in September last year and I mentioned that how

we used to be in the back yard and that and he would come out and he had red hair and of course we’d say, yell out, “Hey ginger”, well it upset him, away we’d go and everything, one would go up a tree and one would go down through the back fence and everything, with kids but that was the only time that we would have fights or something like that with ourselves apart from practising with the gloves on, that sort of thing but, with my size to the others no it didn’t matter because we’d just grown up and you didn’t realise it I don’t think

you know that they are that much bigger than you.

I had, what there’s, four brothers I had and two sisters. Kenny was the eldest. Then there was, I was the first twin, then my twin brother Len, then the next one was Elba, next one born was Georgie, then the next one was Doris, then a few years later, the younger

one Ray. And that was the whole lot of us, and a very happy family, we all played music too. Which helped we had the piano at home, the violin, Lenny played the accordion, the squeeze box they called ‘em and all this sort of thing it was great.

It might have been before tea or after tea, you know, like them days we didn’t have dinner it was called tea so that was it you had your tea. So it

would be before tea and you would practise and then you might play again after tea with it, you know, but I enjoyed, we all enjoyed music.

Well, I don’t know but I thought it was better because my eldest brother Kenny played it and he could make it talk, beautiful he was with the violin and so I think that’s how I became to say, “Well I’ll play the violin too”, because only one could play the piano see, so

my sister was playing the piano so therefore, oh I won’t get a go on there. So I think this is why I took up the violin as well. But no it was real good, but I think with the music part of it the Burnells were known for music because, coming over on the boat from England when, you know my grandfather, he played the squeeze box, his brother played the squeeze box, and that sort of thing. We would go down there of a Sunday afternoon, down to the farm, my grandfather’s farm at the bottom of the town there,

and with it there of a Sunday afternoon, the families would be there, Uncle Billy’s family and Mum and Dad and us and all the kids would be there too. And there would be a lot of talking going on and I think this is where we got our loud voices from because if you stopped talking well you wouldn’t get back in so you had to keep on going and going and going. And he played the squeeze box there and Granny played the piano so the music was bred into us as well you see

and it was great. There is one story I think I should tell you what happened at Camden. We were there one day and the Prime Minister of Australia he used to drive up from Canberra to Sydney, him and his wife, backwards and forwards in an old Tourer car, but they never went through Camden unless they called into the farm, because

The grandfather’s farm down there, because Burnell and, the Prime Minister at the time was

Joe Lyons and he married Enid Burnell and she was my second aunt I would say because she was Dad’s cousin, and when they lived down in Tasmania they grew up as kids. Enid Lyons was the first woman to sit in the House of Representatives, but anyhow I can remember one day, I’ll never forget it, we were down there this day and they had come through,

we were in this big, like a big back room it was, it would have been an ordinary size back room I suppose but being a little fella it was a big room and he came in there this day and there was Joe, Joe Lyons, Joe and my grandfather, his name was George, and standing there and I’m sitting there listening to them, it would have been 1933, just when I left school, and I was sitting there listening to them and my grandfather said to him, he said “Joe, have a look at them paddocks out there”.

He says, “We need more subsidy, more fertiliser”, he says, “How am I going to grow stuff out there?” He says, “If you don’t help me”. He says, “George, we’ve got no bloody money”, and that was it. And that was a story there with the Prime Minister of Australia, and I’m sitting there with them and I’m thinking, “Gee fancy that”, and something that I’ll never ever forget, it’s stuck in my mind.

Not as far as kids, but as we were growing up there was talk about politics and that. You know and of course naturally well, Dad was in the Labour Party and, after the war I joined the Labour Party, but there was other things too but I didn’t stay in it long because I had had six years at the war and I thought oh there is arguing here and arguing there, “Forget it all Les, get out

of it”. But when I was, I was in the union there and you know I was the shop delegate, I was the delegate for the union, I was doing things like this you know, I still became involved but not real deeply into it, but I stayed there. You can say more or less the same today.

Oh great fellow, he started off working on the

farm but then he thought no, this is, it wasn’t for him, the farm life.

Well, he was only growing well the lucerne and hay and all that sort of thing down there on the farm. But before that they had a lease of a small one over at Macarthur Onslow’s at Camden Park and that’s were my Dad was working with them but after that he decided he didn’t want to go into the farm life and he worked

on the road, on the Wollondilly Shire and became their head ganger on the Wollondilly Shire. And during the Depression they went down into, down to the Buragareen Valley, building the road down there and he had eight hundred men under him, down there at Buragareen Valley. And we went down there for the Christmas, in a big marquee sort of thing, the whole family of us down there camped right along the bridge there, but he was there for a long time

until, two of us, my brother and I worked in Sydney and then he decided well there is not going to be any work here for the rest of the family, so he went to Sydney to work too for his brother-in-law and they were working in these skin dyes and all this sort of thing down at tannery down at Botany. So we moved there and we moved down to Marrickville. But no, my father was a great fellow.

Yeah, oh well, he wasn’t a cranky man, no, he had a good personality, he wasn’t a cranky man. I remember I used to be the mascot for their football team when he was playing football. You know and we would go up to Picton and Mittagong, Bowral, Moss Vale, Fairfield, Liverpool and all that sort of thing, sitting in the back of a truck. But he was also picked for the country team but he couldn’t play because he said, “No, I’ve got five children at home, I can’t afford it”,

so therefore he didn’t go and play, but he just played up at Camden and that sort of thing. But no he was a good man. My Mum, well I think she would be the best woman ever born, without a doubt, my mother, and a lot of other people will agree. army mates say the same thing about her, because we used to have blokes, soldiers lying on the lounge room floor and everything, you know, the house would be full of soldiers,

but that was alright, my mates were her boys. So that’s a woman, but she was a wonderful woman, but she died very young. She was only, what was it, fifty three she was, she died in 1951 just after the war, she’d suffered strokes all through, her three boys being at the war. She had a pretty tough time. She did it as tough as any of us blokes did.

I mean it’d be tough for having her three boys away and as I say when they dropped the bomb that was be the greatest thing out for her and other wives and a lot of mothers because when they went back to Java, they had been up there, you know, three times, four times and that and to have another go, your numbers are going to run out, you can’t win them all. So that saved us and that’s what I’ll always argue about it. The Japanese were warned about it but they would not capitulate.

I will always argue about it being a great thing, all for the women of this earth.

Ah, there was, what did she have? She had one, two, three, four, yeah. She had two brothers and two sisters up at Camden. She was born in Camden and she worked at a milk bar and that is where he met her,

at the milk bar and then, that was it. So she was only young when they got married. I suppose she might have been about eighteen years of age. But she was a wonderful mother, nothing was a trouble to her and you know of course to go through the Depression, well it was pretty hard. Dad was working out on the road and he might be out at Menangle or somewhere and she would be home all the week and that sort of thing with us. Come home from school and there would always be some bread and dripping or something

for you to eat. You know you might say bread and dripping, but alright it was Depression time and you know and all the swaggies used come through the town there at Camden and some of them would come and knock on the door to see if they could give them something, she’d say, “Just chop a few”, and she would give them some sandwiches. That’s all because we had no money for them but she might always never knocked them back and give them a couple of sandwiches like that. But that’s it, no she was a wonderful woman.

Oh, I can’t remember much about that part of it you know, but you, well you knew that you had to behave yourself, that was it. With it you had to behave yourself. Well it wasn’t hard to do those days because there wasn’t much things you could get in trouble for, if you was to think back about it you know. Alright

all you could do was just go the pictures, threepence to go to the pictures you know and a penny for an ice cream and that sort of thing, but you didn’t go all the time because they didn’t have the money for you to go. But, no, that was the only thing, you know that would be that you didn’t get into much trouble so they didn’t have to go into much raring on that side of the family life you know, it was just a natural thing you know, none of us ever got a belting or anything because you know it wasn’t needed.

Yes, we used to have a fig tree, a big fig tree. So I used to go around selling the figs to them you know and that one, Mrs Verness she’d always give me two shillings and it didn’t matter how many she would take a dozen, half a dozen she would always gave me two shillings, which was a lot of money in them days so I always made sure that I went to Mrs Verness’ place first. So yeah, but that’s all we used to

do is sell the figs because we used to grow our own vegetables but you didn’t sell them. Nearly everyone did the same thing but the figs were the things that we got a couple of shillings out of that you know that’s all. But my grandmother, she used to do washing for all the bank people, the bankers up there and the clerks and everything, she used to do all their washing, kill the WAS DOUBLE QUOTE CHOOK s and sell the WAS DOUBLE QUOTE CHOOK s and everything like that, that’s what she’d do, but Mum didn’t have to do all that, well she had seven children see

so her time was cut out looking after them, but she looked after them don’t worry.

Well yes, when I was born, the doctor said to my mother, “Minnie, that bloke there, you will never rare”. She said, “Oh”, he said, “No, and what ever you do, if you do rare him,

don’t ever let him smoke”. Righto then. So with it, the trouble is I got what was called wasting disease and it was a very bad thing and the only little and one of my aunties, Aunty Annie, she worked at Nurse Taplin’s, the midwife, she worked at her place, helping her on the births, so therefore she came there, and we were living at my grandmother’s place

then in View Street, and she would walk around and they would take it in turns my grandmother, my two aunties would take it in turns, one would be carrying me, the other would be coming behind trying to get barley sugar and I think it was wheatmeal into me, or oatmeal one of them, trying to get it into me to keep it down. Anyhow they battled and battled and they got me through, that happened twice that did and then they got me

through both times.

I would have only been months old I’d say, months old, because I didn’t know anything about it naturally, but I was crying and that all the time as well. But my twin brother, Len they said, “Well, never hear a word out of him”, and they reckon that they should have called him Mary, he should have been a girl because he was so gentle and everything you know, as though he knew that I was sick. They’d talk about these things about twins and they feelled

as though he knew there was something wrong and never got a whimper out of him all the time I was sick. Then later on I can tell you he changed that way later on in life. But anyhow at that time that’s how he was and they always reckon that he looked after me more or less. I remember the baker used to come around at Camden on his bread cart and he would be down there, Vic Taplin was his name, he was a football referee at the same time there, a rugby league man and

he used to come round and Lenny used to go over to him and say, “You got any any roll, any bread?” And there would be little rolls there and he would say, “Oh yeah, you can have one”, and he would say, “One for more pella, one for more pella”, that was for me, but he would say, “One for more pella” and he would give him one for me, he made sure that he didn’t only take his, he had to get one for me and that’s how it was. And the story I can jump in later on in

life when we were playing football. We were playing there at Erskineville this day and we were playing St. Joey’s from Newtown and I was playing with Marrickville. I was captain for Marrickville, my brother was captain, Kenny was captain at St Joeys, Lenny my twin brother was playing five eight, I was playing five-eight, Georgie my other brother he was playing full back for us and as it was it was going to be the battle of the Burnells. At half time, I didn’t find that out until just at my eightieth birthday, but what happened, Kenny

moved Lenny away from five eighth from marking me because he wouldn’t hit me hard enough. So it must have been that way, as he said, he looked after me all me life and he was still looking after me then so he made him go and play out in the centre and got someone else there to knock me over. And that was just a story, I know I’m jumping the gun a bit but that was a story to say about Lenny my twin brother.

Yes, five minutes after me he was born, and I can

tell you he changed his ways later on because he would rather have a fight than a feed when he was in the army and that’s the type of bloke he was.

Oh, you didn’t notice it but it was quite good, oh yeah it was quite good, we never had arguments or anything like that sort of thing and of course with it you slept in the same bed about three of you would be in one bed and that sort of thing, you know. The two girls they slept in one bed and three boys and there would be

another bed there for the other boy and that’s it, but you know it was all together and that sort of thing, that’s where you were.

Yeah, I would have been, yeah, without a doubt. Although when me young brother came along we are very, very close, the youngest one of the lot. I’ve got a letter there that I can show you after about when he wrote to me when he was nine years of age and I was up in New Guinea.

The letter that he wrote to me, he used to write but I gave a lot of them away to his daughters and different ones and that sort of thing see, but I’ve still got one there and that and with it and but we are still very very close, him and I. But we were a very, very close family, well families were close those days you know, and that was it and you had to stick together and that because it was a battle through for a long time.

Yes, I think the religion part of it was something because it was a big thing those days. It’s not so much today as it was then but it was something those days. We were the Catholics and they were the Protestants and something like that and everyone even they would be the same on their church feelings see and that’s how it was. Religion did have a lot to do

with the way you were, the way you did grow up, without a doubt because later on this Sister Joseph it was when Vicky was going overseas on her first trip overseas and I took her down to this Sister down at, she was in charge, Mother Superior of Arncliffe and I took her down there to meet her, because I wanted to meet this woman. So I took her down there and met her and she said,

“Righto”, then she gave her a set of rosary beads that she’d got when she’d gone to Rome, so she gave them to Vicky. And that’s what I say you got very close in your religion, very close those days and it had a lot to do with your upbringing and how you looked at life. I maintain it did with me and the rest of the family, without a doubt.

Well,

you felt as though that was their religion see that the others, oh no they weren’t, you know they weren’t the religion, we were the only religion, the Catholics and that’s what it was, well it was drilled into you and you believed it because you was a child. It is different with children today there is so much out the TV they see so much see, they’re seeing a different world to what the world really is or what it should be for children today.

It is not what it should be for children, that’s why the teachers at all schools, no matter what school, they find it so hard and of course we can know a lot of parents are to blame we know that, but not all of them and not all the children are to blame. But with it, it was drilled into you, that was the only religion so therefore the Protestants, the Methodist, they were nothing, my grandmother was a Methodist, she never missed going to church but it didn’t matter, yours was the only one and that was it and

nothing could change it.

No, he wasn’t a Catholic. He wasn’t, but he made us go, he said, “No, you’ve got to go to mass, you’ve got to go here, you’ve got to go there”, without a doubt, he stuck by it all, stuck by it he did.

Yeah, that were Catholic. So there, but one thing he used to do, he used to go to midnight mass. Not that he went to mass, he wanted to go only

to hear this Sister Joseph sing. He reckoned that she had such a great voice, him too, and to hear her sing and Kenny playing the violin and that’s how it was but he had to go there to hear her every midnight mass, so there you are. He wasn’t a bigoted man. No way, no. But a lot in them days, each religion, they were so bigoted, it was unbelievable, to know how they were,

yeah so, that’s how it was.

Oh well, the same as Mum, there wasn’t much see, about it because it was life, there wasn’t much trouble around or anything he just thought, well he made sure that we could handle

ourselves with the fighting and that sort of thing with the gloves, and that sort of thing, he made sure that you look after yourself but you didn’t do the wrong thing, what was his saying, his saying was, if you can’t do a man a good turn don’t do him a bad turn. That’s how it was, so don’t do the wrong thing, I think that was the message he was getting through, don’t do the wrong thing by someone else, you know and that’s how it was with him.

yeah.

No, we were in the town, in the town itself. We lived in, I’d say, one, two, three, four, five different houses. I think we had to keep on moving there was another one coming we had to keep on moving, I don’t know whether they didn’t pay the rent or what I don’t know, but anyhow we kept on moving and ended up into bigger rooms and I’ve got

photos of each house that we lived in and even where my young brother, Ray, lives up in Queensland, where he was born, he was born in the front room there. I remember because I was fifteen years of age just before I came to, went to Sydney to work. It was in January 1935 he was born and I remember it, you know went home that day and said, “Oh right there”, I had another little brother and he was I think about

oh would have been about nine years later than

Oh, it was a great place because as you can imagine those days, it was a village, it was a beautiful place and they had a park up there, Camden Park and if you

was anytime there it’s a place you should go and see. And the old church of St John’s up on top of the hill, Church of England, a beautiful big church and the old one where I went to, St Paul’s they don’t use that now, but that church there, a beautiful church the way it was done up and everything about it you know. You felt good even walking in there, that was the feeling there. And around the town everyone knew everyone

see. There was no hidden secrets or anything like that around the place because everyone knew everyone, about it. There was, I think only about, there was three hotels there at the time I think. One, two, three, there might have been the four of them, but three anyhow hotels there, so and that was plenty for the number of people that lived in the town, some of them that

worked on the road with my father and then there was the farm work around the area and that was the main, mainly a farming area because that’s where Onslow went to up that area see with the sheep to start with there and then over to Camden Park, Onslow’s, Mrs Onslow was over there, Macarthur Onslow. I remember one day there I happened to be walking around and I walked up there to where Mrs Macarthur was. And it’s a beautiful big home it was, walked there and she seen

me and she says, and I was in the back yard you know and she says, “Ah sonny boy, and what are you doing today? I said, “I’m just walking around”. And she says, “Ah well wait there and I’ll go and get you a soft drink”. So she brought me out a glass of orange or a glass of lemon you know and that’s how it was, you could walk in. You never closed your door, you never closed your window. Someone knocked on the door, you’d say “Righto, come in”. That’s how it was. It was great to live there as I say and everyone was so close, everyone knew everyone. And

there was no arguments and fights around the town or anything. The football team, the cricket team, we’d have cricketers coming up from Canberra playing trial matches. The football team as I said my father played in used to travel and I was a mascot, we’d go and sit on the back of the truck and that. It was a real community, a close knit community Camden. There was only the two doctors there, in Camden, which they wouldn’t have needed any more for it you know. And

the hospital, quite a good hospital, I know it’s been in the pictures lately but it was quite a good hospital those days. But there was nothing to worry about. You had the river for swimming. There was no fishing down there because there was no fish in there but for swimming, plenty of room. There was Little Sandy, Big Sandy, Big Sandy where my eldest brother drown practically. And they had to run up and get the Scout Master, he lived next door us and he ran all the way down and

swam across and got him. He had gone down three times and got him out. And he said he’ll never, Kenny said about it, when he got him out and that and coming through, he said, “It was just like you was in a tunnel”, he says, “And it was so dark, and all of a sudden you could see it getting a bit lighter”, and it was Gordon Butler the man who saved his life from there, from swimming. And we didn’t go to Big Sandy because there was that little danger because it was so deep nearing the middle and to the other side of it. Most

of us young ones, we all swam down at Little Sandy where you couldn’t get into any trouble. Just a piece of rope on the tree you know and run out, jumping and jumping in and diving and that sort of thing as kids still do today in the rivers. No, but it was great as I say and it was a real community. Everyone knew everything. Like my grandmother did the washing and killing fowls, I used to help her. She had a big mangle down in the laundry underneath the house there. And of

course I used to help her. She would fold the sheets and I used to help her try and turn the mangle for her and all this sort of thing, and did the ironing for her and everything you know. That’s how she had to. And with that what she did, she ended up building a house and with it when the last one died, Aunty Annie was the last one, the church was handed, the house was handed over to the church. I thought gee I thought I would’ve got some of that. But no

it was handed over to the church, yeah so, that was it. As far as I say with it, the whole town’s people were always together, without a doubt at Camden. I don’t know what it like today, it would have to be different today because it’s so much bigger now see, you don’t get those towns no more, not like they were those days no, great place.

Yes we did. We sometimes there, we used to pick teams, we’d play cricket down in the paddock just down past, opposite our place where we lived in Alpha Road and we’d be playing cricket there. Actually it was, one was the Poms and one was the Aussies, you know and that’s how it was, and we used to pick sides and play cricket down there a lot. And also we’d play

football down there as well, rugby league and that’s how it all started. And as I said before like we only played two games because at school those days, you didn’t have any sports days, it was just you went to school, nine o’clock you finished at three o’clock see. There was no sports days at all but near the end of it there, that when they decided that because we used to play in the big school yard, we would play football there and cricket

so that’s when someone decided you know alright we’ll play the public school cricket, which we did. And when we did play them that cricket match, Sister Joseph gave me the to keep the score. And then she says, “And when you finish that score on it all”, she says, “I want you to sign it as captain and I want you to get the other, the lad from the public school to sign it and bring it back to me”. I’ve still got that score card in the drawer now today,

that one there. And what I intend doing, now that they’ve got a library at that school I’m going to take it up there and get them to put it in the library. It’s just something you know as a keep sake for them, and that was what, seventy one years ago that happened and I’ve still got that there. It was great you know we played cricket, of course we won, naturally. And then we played the Banardo Boys, that’s the Banardo Boys, they used to have a home out there, they brought them over from England them days

and this was before the war, in the ‘30s, you see in the ‘20s and we went out there and we played them a game of football. I can’t remember the game but one of my mates there, Townie Roberts, his name was John but Townie was his nickname, and always still even when he came. I put a reunion on at Camden there just after I retired from work. Anyhow Townie, and he told me then, yes we did play and I was the captain and we played and we football

against the Banardo Boys over there at Camden and we won that. So that was the only two sports days in all of our schooling days. That was it and that was at the end of thirty three when that happened. But with my mates yeah, Jack Maloney he lived over at Narellan. And there was another bloke, Burns was at a hotel at Narellan. And Narellan to Camden was two and a half miles and sometimes I’d go over there and stay because Freddy Burns

he used to play the violin as well and so Mrs Burns says, “Oh Leslie you come over and stay the night”, and sometimes I’d go over and stay at the hotel at Narellan and Jack Maloney, well we were very close, Freddy Burns and Jack Maloney, Townie Roberts and myself, Georgie Daniels, Les Curry. We were all very, all close, very close, real mates you know. Even after the war

Townie stayed at our place in Marrickville at times there, and that sort of thing. And then when I was at the war he used to, he worked in the Post Office and he used to go out and visit my Mum and Dad while I was at the war just to keep in touch. So that’s how close you know we became in those days, but of course we have drifted away now. But it was in 1985 after I retired I put on a

Burnell reunion at Camden. And with that there was only my Dad and his brother, they were the only two with their families, they had a sister but they were, they lived in Sydney at Koglin’s, I chased them but they couldn’t make it. But out of those two families there was ninety six at that reunion, two boys started that and there was 96 at that reunion and there could have been a few more.

They came from Queensland, Queanbeyan, New Zealand, different, all around the country you know it was great. So that was something about you know the close there with the Burnell family and Camden itself. Because with us there was a few of the Camden ones who reckoned they were part of the family and they came to the reunion as well.

No, no, I came alright. I had a bit of nose

trouble, what they called Catarrh, you know all the time and that sort of thing, you never hear of it today, it’s called something else I suppose but it was called catarrh. I used to have trouble with that which I also did in the army which I nearly got out of the army through it early, with the straw and the palliasses and that see and that sort of thing, but no got through it. But no apart from that, the only thing that I had was football or injuries and that sort of thing see,

injuries, playing cricket with it and that sort of thing and rugby league with the injuries with that part of it. Which I naturally like every bloke, well you got those, but it was worth it. I’d do the same thing again, so no I was hoping to grow up and you know strong enough to look after myself, yeah.

Yes, oh well the only thing I did have before I left school, it was one of the reasons

why I left too as well as the depression, I had a, a thing called colitis. It was a stomach complaint, colitis and with that you’d get very sick with it. And I was doing the intermediate exam at thirteen years of age, which was unusual at that age. But I did and I passed the violin one, I passed the typewriting bookkeeping one and I done those two and there was another one that I passed and I had more to go but with it I was that sick

and it wasn’t the exams as I said because I loved exams, you had plenty of time and you could keep things neat and doing the work and everything it had to be. But so with it I just got it again and I’d get it now and then you know and I got it then and of course that was it I couldn’t finish the exam, which I was very you know disappointed about because I knew, I said, “Well I’d done the others and I handled it well I’ve only got another couple of exams I’d be able to handle it alright”, not big noting or anything but

I didn’t have any problems with it or anything you know. I was no smarter than the other bloke but I just liked doing those exams. So it was just bad luck. It would have been a feather I suppose to say at thirteen years of age you passed the intermediate because at fourteen, fifteen years of age generally see.

Well, I suppose I don’t know. I started at seven years of age, I suppose, six to seven I started that’s when you started school those days, no kindergarten, you started at seven

years of age and from that well I was just able to pick up the work easy enough because I was able to sit and by that time to do the exams. Most of the others might have been a year or two older than me but I was able to get through it alright you know. As I say I wasn’t smart, I was like anyone else I thought, but I was just able to, I was able to handle it. Perhaps I was a good pupil and listened to Sister properly.

Oh yes, without a doubt, love music. If you could see all the tapes I’ve got there now, even now. I’ve always got one in there when the wireless is playing, I’ve got to tape that one, you know, and still the same. Although I’m not saying I’m rapt in the music of today, far from it, you know because they get on there and I can’t understand

a word their saying you know not like, who was it? Julie Andrews isn’t it? When she sings all the words come out you know you can understand them and that’s how it was years ago. And with all that I’ve got tapes there, I’ve got 78 records out in the shed there in a box there from the 78 records when they first started and all that. But music yes, music is great. I’ve got, as I say tapes there all the time when I do my walk

around at the beach here of a, and I, I’ve always got the head gear on or the wireless in my pocket there to listen to the music, it’s so much easier walking around but it got to be music not talk back, music, oh yes really, really into music. Not the modern stuff, but all the old songs, the 30s and all that sort of thing and all the ones before that you know, Peter Dawson and all these sort of blokes. All that Gladys Moncrieff,

John Charles Thomas, you name them all the old ones and everything and I can give you a record or something of them you know. Yeah and it’s great how now they are putting them onto the disk. I’ve got some there now the 30s disk and all that as well. But I’ve got all the others for when I’m driving the car, there’s always the tapes are on in the car all the time, music, yes.

Well it was following the cricket and the rugby league, following those things. Now, I’ve got another one outside there, or I gave it to my daughter to mind, at 1934 the Australians went to England playing cricket and Wrigleys put out a sheet, a large sheet and you filled it in with all the matches, where they played,

right, what they scored, each batsman scored, each bowler got and I’ve got all that filled in from 1934. And also another one that they filled in themselves and I got that copied, but the other one I did it all myself and the whole thing is there in my handwriting with all the scores of the 1934 tour, Australia and England. Which I doubt it, there wouldn’t be many people that would have one of those around today, but I have got it, yeah, and so I was so

interested in it. And also you talk about, you know, with growing up and that sort of thing, there was a bloke I remember when we were at Marrickville and I would have been fifteen, sixteen or a little bit older than that, and a bloke Don Athaldo, and he was a bloke with all whites and that, the strong man, Don Athaldo. So I got his things and I used to read them and practise that and build myself up or something you know. Well as you can see by how big I am

today, what a difference it made. Yeah, but that sort of thing, but that and the rugby league, without a doubt, they were the two things. My Dad had a crystal set that his brother made for him, a wireless crystal set and it had the headphones on. And I remember there kneeling along side his bed in the night when the test match would be on over in England and he would have one headphone and I’d have the other one. Just kneel kneel listening to it you know, because half the time he would say, “Righto son, you better go to bed now”, you know

and that sort of thing. But that’s how we were, we were sports mad. Well they were the two, they were the two sports, rugby league and that, born and bred into it and still the same today I’m afraid, still the same.

Not at the time, well in that, with it, I thought you know,

“Well I can play cricket and I can play football”, and that sort of thing, it seemed to be a natural thing. I played cricket on that school day as I told you, when we played the public school, we played there. And there was a man, a policeman up there, Harry Haylock, and he was a constable up at Camden in the police. And he was a wicket keeper for the cricket team. And he came down there that day, we were playing it on the Showground, where the cricket pitch was and we played there and he watched us and he went and

told Dad and that you know, he said, “I think this bloke can play cricket”. So what do they do? They have a trial game over at Macarthur Onslow, out at Camden Park this day, the men, they said, “Well we’ll take the little bloke out there and he can play”. So alright, I went out there to bat so they put a pad on me, it would’ve went up nearly to my hip I suppose and gave me one of their bats, I could hardly lift it. I didn’t do much there. They thought you know, so then it looked as then, “Oh well no, he’s not going to be much good

this bloke”. If I had’ve taken me own bat out, the small bat that we had for the family, I’d say I would’ve been able to hit the ball. But by the time I’d swung the bat the ball well the ball was gone. By that time I thought, “Well gee, they think I’m alright, I might end up playing for Camden Cricket”. That’s what I was thinking of at the time, that was I’m going to be a cricketer. But of course, I left there before that, before I you know, at fifteen years of age well then I went to Sydney. But I did have ambitions at that time, I thought, “Righto then,

if they think I can play I’ll show them I can play”, but I had the wrong equipment for the day and never carried on. That was the whole thing I say about that one because I did play it later on when I went to Sydney but I’ll tell you about that later on, yeah.

Oh yes, yeah. There was a gentleman came from Sydney up there and he was putting on two plays he said. He was into it and he put on two plays

and he was going to righto then, come this day and have blokes who want to see and the girls to see if they wanted to be in the play at the time. So anyhow, righto then, oh yeah, I’ll be in this, you know, a bit of a front man. So I went there and yeah, so he selected me and said, “Yeah, righto then”. The first one was “Burragarang Bill”, and that was all about the country boy and that sort of thing you know. So there was Bill Delahunty and meself, we were the main, his father had the Post Office.

Bill Dalihenty and meself we were the main ones in this Burragarang Bill show, you know. And also later on he put on the other one, “Uncle Tom’s Cabin”. So Bill and I we were the same ones again, we were the mains one in there and on the stage and that. It didn’t phase me or anything you know. It just seemed the natural thing to do, you know I suppose being caught up with the Burnells with their talking and talking and that sort of thing, and knowing how alright to keep on going so I suppose

it just a natural, it just came natural to me and I was able to do this sort of thing.

Yes. That was it you know. I enjoyed it too, I thought, “Oh this is great too this stage work and that”. Yeah I did enjoy it, yeah great. Because it didn’t worry me up there in front of the whole Camden Theatre there with all the people in it, you know. It didn’t worry you at all.

No,

no, I didn’t get around to that part of it. Some bloke said, “He’s been doing it all his life anyhow”. Yeah, no I didn’t get around to that part. But, I wouldn’t have minded it because I think it’s so easy to do. Yeah.

No, I don’t think so. As I say at those days of the Depression, I think well I had to go you know and that’s more or less you know and that with the family growing all the time, that I feel as though alright, it was a job, I had a job. I even went down a couple of times and helped my grandfather, Fathie we called him, and helped him load the hay onto the truck and

that, onto the horse and dray and load that sort of thing. But I didn’t think, oh gee, once I went around with Uncle Bill, early morning with the milk on the milk cart. We delivered there and another one to Elderslie. And I went around with him there and of course I didn’t have any shoes on anything and it was wintertime. And the horse would just go and know what house to stop at and you would just go and get the billycan or their jug and fill it up for them and leave it on their

veranda and that sort of thing. But I got back and Grannie had to put my feet in a basin of hot water because my feet, they were that cold and from then I thought, “Gee, I don’t think I want to be a farmer”. So that turned me off farming, I didn’t even try the milking part of it you know. I used to go over there and watch them and everything but I thought, no I don’t want to be a farmer I don’t think, that was the only thing, not what I wanted to do but I knew I didn’t want to be a farmer. And from there I didn’t mind the groceries,

the green grocer and that sort of thing you know, but it was mainly unloading the truck and cleaning and sorting the fruit out, the bad from the good and all this sort of thing you know and that’s where we were able to get food too because the specs and that he used to say, “Take that home Leslie”, well we had plenty of apple pies to eat I can tell you, yeah.

Oh yes, yes they were, but I can say we never went without. We were very

fortunate like Granny Burnell would make the dairy butter down there. And of course it was a different taste to the other butter, I can tell you, it wasn’t real great dairy butter. But still, it was and of course we’d got some of that so we’d have that. But apart from that I can remember mainly is that, well we were fed but after school you know if I was home it would be bread and, bread and dripping on it you know with pepper and salt or something on it, and it used to be very nice. But you wouldn’t be game to eat that these

days, the doctors would say, “Hey, cut that out”. But also I’d go after school, I could go up to my grandmother because she used to give me a penny to do her messages. So what I’d do there, she’d nearly always have a piece of cake for her Leslie see, I can say that because the whole family would tell you that, you know her Leslie, and anyhow with it and say and then I’d have one piece and then I’d say, “Mom, anymore cake? Anymore cake?”. So that’s how it was, you know, so

I was getting fed, although with the families naturally they did it, they did it a bit tough, but we were very fortunate that we had and the milk we were able to get a bit of milk too, as well, you know for us so there wasn’t much more and we grew. Dad when he came home on weekends they’d have a vegetable garden you know so we didn’t starve but you could’ve done with more, you know you didn’t get everything that you would, that you really needed. Like I suppose them days, the meat,

you’d only be eating mutton or something like that, you know. Something, you know the cheap one if it was that. You’d go to the grocer and ask them for a bag of broken biscuits, you’d get it them cheaper, so there the only biscuits you’d get that you’d buy the broken biscuits, you know, that sort of thing with the Depression. But no even so, Dad was fortunate that as I say, he worked all the time. So it wasn’t big money but we were fortunate we were able to get through it yeah. Clothes were well all, naturally it was hand downs

or you know and that sort of thing. Or someone would make something for the girls and that sort of, my grandmother would make something for my eldest sister, I know that because she was always wanted to have her looking nice and that sort of thing which you can understand, woman to woman, yeah, but that sort of thing. No we were lucky we got through it, there would have been a lot worse off than us, yeah.

Well, the green grocers, Skiles were there name and they were friends of my

grandfather and grandmother. Because I think they were English people and I think this is were the connection came. Although my grandfather always said, “No, I’m not a Pommy, I’m a Welshman”, just like that. But the funny thing about it is he could say what he liked because there was, you go back in time, there was a Burnell as the Lord Mayor of London and also over in London now there is a Burnell Lane there. So there was, Burnells were there in London alright we’ve proved

it, but he always said he was a Welshman. Because my grandfather, he was the greatest story teller ever, never stopped. He used to be there, down there, and he’d say, “Oh yeah, yeah well got over here, my brother and I, it was only a bag of potatoes we stole”, and of course she’d say, “George, stop your lying”. He didn’t come out that way at all you know, but that’s the type of bloke he was, never stopped talking. Well I don’t know where I got it from.

But you work it out. But anyhow

with it, a great story teller but that’s how he was. And he was connected to the Skiles see because sometimes they’d go there of a Sunday, or the Pattersons would come down there, they were in, they’d come down of a Sunday, you know and the piano going and all this sort of thing, and the music and with it. And that’s how I got the connection there with the Skiles to work for them as I say. He’d go there twice a week and he used to go to the markets in Sydney and come back and I’d help him unload and all this sort of thing. And put them in the big shed and that

and do the sorting. When there turning a bit speckly or something, you know specters they’d call them and all this sort of thing. And I worked there for, what, two years I worked there for them because I worked there then at thirteen and I left in 1935, in March 35. 15th of March 1935 I went to Sydney to work, yeah.

I gave it to my Mum,

yep, I might have kept a shilling or six pence or something, you know, just to go to the pictures, that’s all but that unless I said, “Oh, Mum I want to buy something”, you know, “Oh alright then, save up”, or something like this. I can remember one time, I said, “Oh, Mum I want a pair of long pants, you know, I’m grown up now”, “Leslie, you’re not big enough to wear long pants”, so therefore I stayed in shorts and today that’s all I live in today is shorts. The only time I

put on a pair of long pants is on Anzac [Australia and New Zealand army Corps] Day or if I’ve got to do a eulogy, go to a funeral or something and that, that’s the only time I wear a pair of long pants. So my mother told me I wasn’t tall enough, so I’ve taken notice of my Mum still, see, still wearing shorts.

Oh I enjoyed them yes, yes. It was an outlet that one, and only on Saturday. We started off, when we were going to school we used to

go to the matinee because the matinees was great, there was always cowboys and Indians and that sort of thing and the serial things and on again next week you know. Well you couldn’t get there quick enough the next week. And that’s what it was so the pictures they were a great outlet you know. Up at Camden, I remember going to the silent ones, you know, and that’s how it was. And they had the organist or the pianist there playing it and that sort of thing, you know. Great memories and great days, you know. We were so fortunate that we were able to see

all these sort of things and go through life at that time, I reckon. To be still, to be able to be talk about it, very fortunate people.

Well my brother was working down in Sydney. He was working at the tanning place that

our uncle owned, down at Botany, and he was working there. And he had been to Marist Brothers, he won a bursary at Camden and he got into Marist Brothers Randwick and he went to school there and said, “Righto then work there”. And whether I said, “Gee, I’d like to go the Sydney to work”, or not, but Dad said you know, “There’s no work in Camden for us”, so therefore my aunty, she worked she was in charge of

the ladies in the machine room making these high grade ladies shoes, they were the highest grade of ladies shoes in Australia, Westbook and Mason shoes. And anyhow, she was in charge of that and she made enquiries if they wanted anyone down there so up in the warehouse. They said, “Yes, righto then”, so being her well in there and respected, she asked them could I have the job and that’s how I got the job down at Westbrook and Masons

down in Kippax Street, Sydney. In the first war they made all the army boots and that for the war, but in the second war I don’t think they went into that. They might have because as I say, it was ‘39 then, I went in in ‘40 and then the war was over when I went back see, so I don’t know what they were doing just then. But that’s how I got the job there it was through Aunty Alice. And that’s where I went to stay. I stayed there at their place at her mother’s place

and there was, I think two daughters living there, there was another man and two of her sons were living there and Kenny and I were living there and we were living there we were paying five shillings a week board. And I was getting all my meals and my lunch cut as well for five shillings a week, and I used to pay sixpence on the tram, threepence in of a morning and threepence home. And I’d go home every

fortnight because I couldn’t afford to go. And when I’d go home to Camden every fortnight, Mum would have to give me some more money so as I would be able to come home the next fortnight. So I was working there but it was still costing money you know because I was only getting ten and eleven pence I started on at Westbrook and Masons, fifteen years of age and my wage was ten and eleven pence, that’s what it was. Then when I went into the war I was getting five pounds, so

there.

Up in the warehouse, receiving and the despatch and also doing the packing. Packing of the shoes and that and keeping the place clean you know like with all the shoe racks and everything, in their boxes and that up there and making sure because then they added that calcimine roofing on it you know. Of course it used to drop and that well you had to keep it all and looking after that and doing the packing and

parcelling up and everything and we used to send it by rail and that sort of thing. Down to Melbourne and Brisbane and all over the country. And so there and I ended up Assistant Warehouse Manager by the time I left you know, and with that, and with the shoes coming through from the cleaning ladies, they‘d come through, and each pair of shoes that came through I was inspecting them to make sure there was nothing wrong with them, because the high grade they had to go out right. So I was there inspecting them before we wrapped them up

to send them, to send them out on our orders and also writing out the orders and the despatch and keeping up the stock, stock as well, everything like that. So I enjoyed the job too, it was very good, I could’ve been there and then they were thinking about making me a country traveller, which I don’t know whether they would’ve been good or not. But anyhow that’s what they were thinking of that that could’ve looked like it could’ve been my next job because

the other bloke was getting a little bit older and that could’ve been my next job as a country traveller. But the the war came and that was a different ball game see.

Oh yes, yes. I loved it, loved it in Sydney, you know, well I’d never seen a tram or anything, you know. Country kid, a real country hick I was. And there I was doing the banking, I got that way that I’d go to the bank and take the money down and put it in the bank, the cheques and all this sort of thing,

and you’d catch the tram and when I’d get come back, I’d have to tell them how much I paid on the tram. Well it was tuppence a section, so with it I used to go there and sometimes I’d say, “Right I’ve done that”, and I used to run all the way back so as I wouldn’t get in the tram and I used to keep the tuppence then. You know it was fair game and I used to run all the way back, and then I’d get there just as about as quick as the tram anyhow see so and that’s what I used to do see and I used to make a tuppence here and a tuppence there. That sort of thing

running in between instead of jumping on the tram to go from one place to the other one all over the city. Going to the different ones picking up an order or dropping in a pair of shoes to farmers at DJs [David Jones], Anthony Hordons, Naughts, Selbys, all these top ladies shoes, but there were of the high grade and I think at that time they were paying about three pound five shillings and more for a pair of shoes, which was a lot of money but they were the top grade ones, beautiful shoes they were, yeah and

that’s how I got the job and that’s what I was doing, and I really enjoyed the job. And bad luck after the war but we’ll come to that later.

In Gardeners Road, Mascot. Up Gardeners Road, Mascot and it was just near the Menerver (Sp?) Picture Show which it was called and there was another one down near the Thorntons Hotel on the corner of Gardeners Road and Botany Road. Well there used to be a Hotel, the

New Market, I think it’s called is it now? I don’t know, it used to be Thorntons we called it but I think it could’ve been called the New Market Hotel there, you’d know the area, there Gardeners Road and Botany Road there that hotel. There was a picture show down near there too them days and there was another picture show up near, only about three doors up on the next corner from where we stayed in Gardeners Road there, there. Then later on we stayed there, Dad

got out of there and went down and worked at the tannery as I said, and he came and stayed there with us too. So the three of us were staying there and his job was, when he was there, to look for a house. And we found one over at Marrickville so and that was in, when was that? Late. September 55. September 35 the whole family moved down there into a house in Sheppard Street, Marrickville. It was the 15th of September 1935

because my young brother he was a baby, Ray, he was a baby in arms then, he would have been what seven or eight months old I suppose yeah, and that’s when we moved into that one, that house there.

Not at that stage really, because I did start to play football with Botany,

Botany D Grade because I remember I went and bought my first pair of football boots, Dunk and Thompsons they were, down at Mick Simmons’ down at Haymarket. And I went down there, I said, “Well playing football and they’re playing football well, I’ve got to play football”, so I went and played football with Botany down at Snake Park I think we used to play with Mutiny, there and then of course after that well I’ll talk about the other football later but I ended up playing

with another team over there too, Lauriston Park, yeah but that was it, well that was it I only went and played football with them but then, as soon as I finished football every fortnight I went home, home see. The other only thing that I would’ve been going to the pictures at Menerver or the Haymarket, I didn’t have any friends around there to mix or anything, you know but I was enjoying what I was doing, yeah, yeah.

Oh yes,

yeah, yeah. That was later on, that was when we were living over at Marrickville, that we did. And I went and played then after Botany, Dad, Dad and Kenny were working at the tanners and at that place was a chap that was connected with the football crowd and he said, “Righto then at Lauriston Park”, so we went and played with Lauriston Park. Lauriston Park Football Ground was as you

drive there is a train line going over past where the aerodrome is. Goes across O’Riordan Street going out to Botany it was the train line, I don’t know if it’s still there, I think it would be and you came under that bridge to go into the terminal, into the airport there, Kingsford Smith Airport. Well right as you went under that bridge there was a football ground there and that was Lauriston Park’s home football ground, and that’s where we started playing football.

And there was a hall there that we used to put on dances and everything. And with that, that’s when I started mixing around the place, meeting people, I’m saying, meeting people you know and mates and that sort of thing and with it we ended up, there was a chap played there, Jock Livingstone, one of the greatest sportsman you’d see, this bloke would play anything, you wouldn’t back yourself on the snooker table, he was an A-grade tennis player, he played first grade,

he played cricket for New South Wales, first grade for Randwick and Glebe. He played for New South Wales, he also played rugby league for South Sydney, full back, I’m not sure whether he played interstate them days or not but he did, he was an all round sportsman this bloke Jock Livingstone and him and my twin brother, Lenny and I we went dancing together. We used to go down to Roberts’, down at Eddie Avenue, Rawson Place, Eddie Avenue,

we used to go down there. Lowes used to be there, Daking House.

Yes well, as I say there was Jock Livingstone, my twin brother and myself. I think they were the main, just the three of us like.

We decided then alright we’ll go and learn how to dance, do it properly. We thought we could dance a bit, you know, but we’ll do it properly. So it was this place down at Eddie Avenue there, Daking House, I think the backpackers are there now. Anyhow upstairs and we used to go, we used to go there, every, I think it was every Monday night we used to go dancing there. Just on, Victor Silvester music going, on the record and this

and the girls there used to come and pick you up, next time they would go and pick the other one up and take it in turns. It might have been three girls or so there working at it and so this is where you’d take a turn, you’d miss out some dances see. But this is how we all learned to dance and we did, from then, we did a lot of dancing to like. I think at some stage I was going to four dances a week, Sunday afternoon as well

and that. You know but it was great dancing, yeah, really enjoyed it.

Oh, the Quick Step, the Fox Trot, Joe’s Waltz, the Slow Fox, Pride of Erin, Gypsy Tap and naturally the Barn Dance. All those dances, you know which great, which I think I’d like to see more of and be in it today. But I wouldn’t get around too much today, not for long anyhow.

But, today well it’s a different kind of thing isn’t it, you just stand there and start kicking your legs and throwing your arms around and that’s it, you know. But ballroom dancing yeah, that’s what it was and even different to the ballroom dancing today, you know where these’s so much of the sharp movements and all that sort of thing you know, where as it wasn’t, it was all just nice and slow, it was all rhythm and that but different to how they do it today even you know.

I loved dancing and I suppose yeah, I suppose girls could have come into it too, now you mention it. Yes it was, it was great, you know and of course you’d always think, the one that you wanted to walk home you’d say, “Don’t forget I’m having that last dance with you”. And that’s how you used to do it, because as it was those days, the boys used to be over one side of the room and the girls would be over on the other side. “Wallflowers” they used to call them, you know. Some poor girls would

be battling, I suppose. But that’s how it was, and you’d look, “Oh god she danced well, I’ll go over”, right see where she was standing and you’d say, “Right can I have the next dance please?” You’d go and pick them up you know and all this. You didn’t always win, “Oh no, sorry I’m booked”, you know and that sort of thing and that’s how it was. But no, it was great dancing as I say we used to go, where was it at, we used to go down there and then say some Saturdays we used to have the dances at Lauriston Park

after the football on that night. And then also at Marrickville Town Hall, there was Shrubbies, Shrublands the Catholic Hall up at St Bridgett’s up at Marrickville. Shrublands they used to have a dance every Saturday night, so you’d definitely be up at that one. And then there was one at the Darlington CYA [Christian Youth Association ?] used to have one on a Sunday afternoon sometimes, so now and then you’d be down at that one. But used to be, you could be going four, four times a week

dancing. So, you don’t have to ask me if I enjoyed it.

Oh, I think so, yeah, I think was quite satisfied you know, I used to get enough dancing, yeah without any doubt. And some nights you know you’d take a girl home and just walk them home and that was it and alright, “Will you be at the dance next week?” “Yeah, good, I’ll see you then”, “Good”.

Or sometimes you might say, “Do you want to go to the pictures on Wednesday night or something?” That’s how you worked, just a natural thing for a man and that’s how it was.

No I didn’t, I didn’t have a special girlfriend, no. I’m just thinking who I might have went dancing with mainly. I don’t think I had a special girlfriend dancing at all, no. I’d go with a girl for a while might be and then another one for a while you

know and that sort of thing. I suppose I could of got into trouble when I had three of them working at the same factory. That’s another story. You know so.

Yes, it just happened to happen. It wasn’t me, you know, it just happened to happen so that was it. And they all worked, these three worked at the same in a shoe factory, not at Westbrook and Masons. It was at Fosters, over at, I think it was

more like Erskineville area, or somewhere over there, I just forget where it was now, Fosters I know, and I was taking these three girls and they all worked there and I thought listen Burnell you’d better get out of here. You’re going to get into big trouble. So that was it.

No, they didn’t find out. No, well not that I know of, they might have mentioned it at work, because I don’t know which part that they were working in. Yes, one of the girls

I went with for a long time before the war there for a while. Another one I went for quite a while over at Lauriston Park too. But I was taking three girls to Lauriston Park, I’d take one home one night might take another one home the next night or something. Take it in turns, you know, variety is the spice of life.

Yes, so there you are.

Well, those days they were real pictures, weren’t they? You know you had the great musicals, and also you had the real love stories and that sort of thing and the dramas of cowboys and Indians and everything, you know. All these old actors, but it was acting you know, it wasn’t the phoney today like putting on cartoon things and talking and all that sort of thing. I know, alright it’s the go, the way they are today and all these special effects

things and that sort of thing, well it’s just not our go. We were born in a different era and pretty hard to change them.

I really can’t remember any real favourite films. I enjoyed going to you know Sonya Henie in the ice skating was great. I remember those, the other girl, Esther Williams in the dancing, in the swimming. You know this was later on but before that you all had, you had your Tom Micks

and all those blokes you know, in the cowboy shows and that. Of course you did see a couple of war photos, war films them days, “On the Western Front” and that sort of thing. No, it was great, any pictures like that you could enjoy them because they were pictures and they had stories. And of course later on you know you seen them Robert Taylors and all these Tyron Powers and everything, Clarke

Gables, all them and the other bloke, Humphrey Bogart and their types.

No, not really. No, because at the time it wasn’t really war. No, I don’t think that inspired me like that part of it, before the war but naturally once you came there, well

you’d think back memories of those sort of things, naturally they would come back to you, the memories of them, yes of that sort of thing.

Oh, I watched the news reels, oh yes, they had to have the news reels had to be on. Sydney Sound, Sydney Sound News and Fox Movie Tone News. Yeah, those you had to watch those because you always, nearly always got a sports, some kind of sport in them. So that was the main thing about them. Because

oh, yeah they’ll have the cricket on or they’ll have some of the football on, you know something like this, so yeah, oh very enjoyable the news, yeah they were great. Yeah, bad luck I don’t think they have that sort of thing today, do they?

No, well you’ve got it on TV.

Every day all day, that sort of thing, its different. But no they were great at Sydney Sound and Fox Movie Tone News, without a doubt

Different to Camden?

Yeah, well you had a different lifestyle altogether, see. You got there, you went to work and you was working. You went to work in the tram, you came home in the tram and there was, with it from there, you had mates, you’d go to the

beach and that sort of thing. There was cricket, there was rugby league, there was places to go and see. If you went into town to the pictures or somewhere, even if you went into town, say on a Saturday, you never went in it unless you had a collar and tie and a coat on. You wouldn’t go in you know, like a rough bloke like me today, who would go anywhere in shorts and joggers and that sort of thing, but those days no, you never went into Sydney unless you had

a suit or a sports coat on with a collar and tie. And that’s how it was, didn’t do us any harm. Of course it’s a bit slacker now but that doesn’t matter, I agree with it now because I only put a tie on when I go on Anzac Day as I’ve said or a funeral. But for some of the funerals, the army ones, I do the eulogies see, but apart from that, family or anything now, I don’t wear a collar

and tie, I just wear slacks and a shirt in the summer time and that’s all I wear. But only for the other ones I wear a suit, you know but ordinary family ones or anyone close like that, no we don’t wear a collar and tie even.

The neighbours were alright, but we didn’t get close. Next door, the first one when we lived in Shepherd Street, there was a lolly factory next door to us

and the other two along side of us they were there but we didn’t seem to mix or anything at that time, not like at Camden you knew everyone all over the, everywhere Elderslie, Mount Harbour, Camden you know everywhere, you knew them all. But in Sydney it wasn’t the same, not then. But when we moved around, we moved around to another house in Illawarra Road, exactly opposite the

Henson Park Hotel there, and then you knew your neighbours there and it was a lot different there, you got a lot closer there to the neighbours. Because opposite where we were in Shepherd Street, there was only the school opposite see so you didn’t have many neighbours around. But over there we had them around behind us in the next street, down the street, along the street, along side, opposite, everywhere. And you knew a lot more people and a lot of neighbours there, and that was

alright, it was getting a bit like that you knowing your neighbours like it was in Camden, you know. And that’s where it was, you knew everyone there and the neighbours there, it was great living in Marrickville in those days with those people without a doubt.

As a teenager, I was happy to be in Sydney. I had so much to do. It was go, go, go, it was great. But I suppose if I had of been in Camden I would’ve been doing more or less the same, you know.

Not quite but I would’ve been enjoying life there no matter what, you know because I still maintain that no matter where you go it’s up to you, no matter where you live, it’s up to you. And anyhow with it, no I enjoyed Marrickville very much, but with it, you were, you was moving around all the time you know you’d go home, alright then we’re going to go to the pictures, someone or we’re going to go somewhere else or we’re going to go to the dance or we’ve got a meeting to go to or we’ve got to go to football training. You know,

you were going all the time. But it was great, I loved Sydney. Still love it, I still think it’s the greatest place on earth now. Still is, Sydney is, without a doubt, yeah.

Yes, yes, she took to it alright. As long as she had her sons with her she was happy, that’s how it was. You know Mum and their sons, and she had her sons there to look after her so everything was great from there. And she said she had.

five boys including twins and she said, “Boys are a lot easier to rare than what girls are”. She only had two girls, she said she wouldn’t have cared if she had seven boys. So that’s how my Mum and a lot of Mums I know of too are with their boys, and that’s how it was. So if she had her boys around her she was happy and anywhere, but no she enjoyed it there as well. I know and then when the, in the war when we were away, she even went to work for a

while down near Grace Brothers there doing something, I forget what it is now, it’s a long time ago. There then also it was during the war near the end of the war that they took over the shop next door to us, a little green grocer, a little fruit shop, not a milk bar, but sweets and confectionery, a small shop there, just a corner shop you could say. And they took that because my grandfather got rid of the farm and got offered that and they bought this little

shop there right next to us, next door. So she enjoyed doing that sort of thing too see, she had something to do, but the trouble was, little kids come in and she wouldn’t charge them much money, she’d give them more than she should with kids, you know. She was that type and that’s how it was.

Yes he did. Because he had all his football see and his cousin over at Darlinghurst, who had Holstoyd Cars it was, driving top people around,

Dame Walker, I forget who her name was. She had a house over near where Concord Hospital was. Dame Edith Walker, I think her name was. Her and other people, top ones with their hire cars and there well Dad had him to go the football with and everything and all that sort of thing. And us playing football, no he enjoyed it but whenever it was he would always go back to Camden for a week or so, yeah. He enjoyed going back to Camden because he had old

mates there, see, yeah very much.

Oh, had to be better off because we were all working. It would have been very hard in Camden because there weren’t the jobs there for men. The jobs weren’t there see, so therefore we had to be better off, we had to move, had to move. If you had a small family you would’ve stayed in Camden I think,

you would’ve, but with the, with seven of us, well no the move had to be made. And so if they didn’t want to go, Mum and Dad, it didn’t matter they sacrificed that to say righto then for their benefit, it would mean work for them, we’ve got to go. And that’s how I think it worked out and they fell into the pace of things alright. Yeah.

Australian. That’s all practically, yeah there was nothing, no mixed at all then, those days. They were all of us you know that, and I suppose that’s why it was so easy because you could go and talk to anyone or anything and that sort of thing, and same culture, but that’s how you were. All believed in the same thing more or less. And you could have your arguments but more or less the same see. You was

Australian and quite a few of them people would have come from the bush and come to the city to live you know. But no, Marrickville was a great place too them days, fantastic, because you got to know a lot of people, in the shops and all. Yeah, all in all you were playing football out there as well, well you knew a lot of families from the dances at Marrickville, well you met more people but no, it was great.

Well I’m not complaining

about my life at all, no and that was a part of the good life as well, at Marrickville.

Well it was in 1940 early when they took in the first lot of soldiers. That first lot went up to Greta camp, Silver City and that’s when my eldest brother

went. And he went up there but he didn’t enjoy it. Well I couldn’t blame him up in Silver City, it was up on top and it was a hot place and everything, you know. And he didn’t really enjoy it, it was with the 55th, 53rd, 55th mob that went up on the Kokoda but. And then he got married and that time, when you was married and had a family you could get out of the army then see in the Militia’s, you didn’t have too. So he was quite happy to get out because he was going to earn the money see, five shillings a day. Well he was

able to work so therefore he could provide for his wife and daughter where he couldn’t provide if he had stayed in the army see. So that’s another thing too I think that he might have got out of it as well. But we were single so it was a different thing see. And then it was I say, it was about April 14th we got notice to say you know that we had to go down to Marrickville and do a little bit of training and let us know a little bit about soldiering. Then it was later on when we got the notice to go down and say

righto then, now we’ll put you through your medical. So Lenny and I, my twin brother, we went down as I said before about it, no I didn’t tell you about it did I, right. We went down there for it, and with it, Len’s going through alright and I’m going through alright and then I came to the eye doctor and he says, “Oh mate, I can’t pass you”, I said, “What?” He says, “I can’t pass you”, I said “Why not?”.. He says

“Because your eyes are too bad. I can’t pass you to go into the army”. I said, “What, you’ve just passed me twin brother? God, if he goes, I go. You can’t leave me behind, you’ve got to let me go”. And of course I suppose you can understand listening to me now I kept on going and going, I think I wore him down. He said, “Oh damn him. Oh alright then I’ll pass you”. So I was happy,

because before that when I said to Mum, “I think I’m going to join the army”, and Mum said, “No, Leslie, you’re not joining the army”. She said, “For the simple reason that you’ve got to get my authority, you’re not old enough yet, so you need my authority, so I’m not going to”. So I said, “Oh well, I’m not going to upset my Mum, I’ll be right, I’ll get there eventually”. So then that was 1940 and we did a few once a fortnight we’d have to go

down of a night time, down at the Addison Road, and like it was only about three hundred yards from our place, and do a bit of marching around and other things in the hall. I just can’t remember all that we was doing, but it wouldn’t have been much, but it was just getting you used to it, you know. And then it was later on in the year that we got the notice to say we were going into camp and to arrive down there with a packed lunch, come down with a packed lunch, alright then, we were going to go down there. So it was on

Saturday night Lenny and I, both of us, so on the Saturday night before we went out to the Bondi Esplanade, there was a dance on there every Saturday night. So righto then we were going out to the dance, this was our last night, we didn’t have a girl, well I knew a girl then but I said, “No, we’re going out Lenny and I and we’re going to make it the last night”. So with other mates from Enmore, football mates, we go out there to the dance and we danced. On the way home we went up to

Enmore there, and there was a place there. And we said “We’ve got to have a couple of beers to say hooray blokes”, so we went and we got some beer. We got a couple of corks and that, sly grog place it was, which there was a few of them around because the pubs would close at six o’clock see so you can’t get a drink anywhere.

Oh it would have been one o’clock in the morning, two o’clock in the morning.

Oh yeah, you’d just knock on the door, went in, I think it was a two storey place we went into and got this lot. Anyhow

we went there and got that and then went out and sat in the gutter somewhere, you know, didn’t annoy anyone and we just had our beer there. We got home at nearly seven o’clock in the morning, poor Mum, she was worried about you know where are they. In the letter that she wrote to me later, I thought you would have come home the night before you left, you know, but young blokes, you know. “Oh Mum, it’ll be right”.

Anyhow this is what we did. So we had that then on the Sunday morning we went down there

caught the tram into Central Station, got the train up to Greta. Got to Greta camp and that’s where it all started.

Well I was the only one that said that I was going to join and I think

what it was she’d had her brother in the first war, he’d been in the light horse. And I remember how, on my tapes I made, I can remember how proud he was of being a member of the light horse, he was in the 6th Light Horse. And there was a photo, I’ve still got a photo of him when he was over there and he was injured, I don’t know what, but he was injured anyhow over there. And I think this is the reason that her brother was away

with the first war, knowing more about the wars than I would, I think this is the reason why she didn’t want me to go to the war. And also remember, I was her son, that was another reason too wasn’t it, that was a big thing too to any mother. That they didn’t want their sons to go but if they went well ok you know, but she said no, so that was it, so I had to wait. I thought well alright then, as I said I wouldn’t upset her.

So therefore I just let it bide my time and in the time, things happened it changed didn’t it. But that would be the reason I say why she didn’t want to sign it, and no one, I think also she was frightened of my health as well and what I had gone through and everything because even those days I was drinking Scotch Emulsion it was because I suppose being a bronchial type and that sort of thing, you know and all that so I was. And where I worked

at Westbrooks and Mason there was a commonwealth drug company next door, which made this Scotch Emulsion right, in a big jar, and I used to go in there, get an order from the office and take it up there and they used to supply me with it and buy it there, and I used to drink that out of the bottle all the time and I think that’s what helped me.

Scotch Emulsion.

Oh for colds and bronchitis and, you know, all that sort of thing and also helped to build you, it had the olive oil in it,

and all this sort of thing see and with it, and it was very good. I think it did do me good. As a matter of fact when I was up in New Guinea up in the mountains I wrote home and asked Mum and she went and got Alice, my aunty, to go and get some and send it up to me, you know, that’s how it was. I said, “I need that up here”, so and that’s how it was and I was drinking that and I think this is what Mum was also afraid that me being the weaker one, well supposed to be, you know that she was a bit afraid

and especially not smoking.

Yeah, I started to smoke. Well being a young bloke, you know I started to smoke. Not much, very little, you’d only smoke if you was going out of a night somewhere, you know and that, never smoked of a day or anything. One time anyhow, my eldest brother said, “Mum, Leslie’s been smoking”, so I got the round of the tables then. I was only about seventeen to eighteen you know,

so yeah, so anyhow, oh yeah, righto then. But I didn’t smoke much, but she was told not to let me so she had to do her bit see, but I smoked little. Of course later on in life, later on it changed a bit didn’t it, but we’ll get around to that later too.

He came back from World War I, but he wasn’t great. He didn’t seem to handle civilian

life, I know. In the light horses, the Aston polo mob, the polo crowd and another one were in polo horses, and they wanted him because the reckoned no one could sit a horse like he did, you know, great on a horse and with it he knew how to handle horses and everything. And they, everywhere they went, they’d come and get him and that’s about all he would do. He wouldn’t go to work or anything and this, and he would be in his room, I used to hear him talking to himself in the room there when I’d

be at my grandmothers you know, with the door shut, and in there talking. So I think he was affected by the war, no doubt about it, had to be affected because he wouldn’t have been drunk or anything like that, you know. He’d go down and he used to pick up the glasses and put it on the, on the counter end of the bar and get a free drink now and then that’s all you know, but not drunk or anything you know, and that sort of thing. And I’d say he was affected definitely by the war and this would be another thing too for her, yeah. She had

her reasons, yeah.

I think it did, I do. Because the simple reason I seen him on Anzac Day, or if they have a light horse parade or something at the show and all this, sitting there with his medals on and everything and looking so great as a soldier, I think that, that was into me as well, you know. I picked it up from there I think

a little bit. Oh god, look at these blokes, they look great, I think that could have been, that could’ve sown a seed for me, without a doubt, that I’d want to be in it, yeah. It wasn’t for country and all that sort of thing, the flag and all that.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I wanted to be a soldier, and that was it.

Yeah, I could be a soldier and that’s it. Yeah, yeah, I’d be great I reckon, yeah

and knock about sort of a bloke, you know, then I thought, “Yeah, that’s the life for me.

Oh, I think so. It was a Friday night down in Sydney, I was just around the corner of Pitt and Market Street, it was and I was there. Friday night shopping, it was late shopping on Friday nights, and not Saturday afternoon

them days see, Friday night in the city. So, I was there and I heard it come over from one of the stores, the loud speaker, saying that war was, Australia has declared war. So, “Oh beauty”, well it was something that was expected, I expected it, I knew.

Well what was going on in Germany, with Hitler in Germany and that, it was moving further and further and with it, you knew that it was going to happen, just when but you knew it was going to happen.

And when I was working at Westbrook and Mason there was Charlie Westbrook, Laurie Westbrook and the Secretary, George Gibson. Those blokes were in the same show in the first war, they were mates in the same unit. And I used to see them talking at times and I’d, “Oh yeah I know what they’re talking about, they’re talking about the war”, see. So I thought, “Oh well, I can see these blokes and they’re talking about the war and they seem to be happy enough

and all this sort of thing, the wars coming”. And I said, “Righto then”. And then Charlie Westbrook, he was an officer in the first war, so he was on the reserve list, see. And with it I thought, “Yeah, oh yeah, I definitely want to be in it. I want to be a soldier, I want to go, yeah”. And that’s I think with that, from Uncle Bill seeing how he was and then working there and seeing these blokes and talking about the war and everything, and I knew that

I’d have to be going sometime later, so I didn’t care if I had to go straight away more or less. And this is what it is, yes, I wanted to be a soldier.

No, no, but they didn’t, because alright Kenny didn’t like it much, you know, but still I’d say he was thinking about his family. He had to go to work to get the money for them. But with my twin brother, well him and I

were going see, we were right together we were there. Georgie, me younger brother, he wasn’t old enough then but he got in after, when he was old enough he got in as well, as a soldier, but he wasn’t at the time. But no, they didn’t, but when we got up to Greta camp, I was in the 9th Field Company and Lenny went into the band. The band, hauled them blokes up they said, “Well, there’s an engineer’s band over there

if you want to go in the band”. Well we played in the band in Camden, both of us, so therefore, “I’m going in the band, you coming?” I said “No, no, no, no, I’m not going into the band”, more or less still did my mind, you know I’m going to be a different, I’m going to be a soldier not in the band, I want to be different see. So that was it, so he was in the band all the time there and I went over to him once and seen that, no, no, no, I want to be out in the paddock. So this is how I came to be in the 9th Field Company and this is how

Lenny and I got there and we weren’t together at that time.

Yeah, yeah, but I was seeing him because he was from here over the road in another hut, see. I thought alright, we’re more or less together but we’re not in the same unit, you know, so anyhow, see what happens later, never thought of that but you know, but that’s what it might have been but were here together, and that was the start of it. But you’d go up in the train there and I’d see these blokes and I, they don’t seem a bad

mob. And then when we got there they said, “Righto then you’ll fill up your palliasses”, and that sort of thing, you’d go back and if you’ve got any mates you’d go in them huts, and I thought, oh yeah, where are you going mate. Oh righto then, I’ll go with you, and that’s how it started. I’ve got a photo of us there, of us in the first couple of weeks, the rookies there in our uniforms outside our hut, you know.

Oh it was alright, but it wasn’t fantastic, because

with it at the Greta camp, well you’ve got to remember that the blokes who were training us, some of them hadn’t had much soldiering. Some of them had gone into the militias just before the war like, in the reserve or the militias or whatever they called it before the war, to learn a little bit because I think they could have been a few years older then us thinking, “Well I could be in the war”. So, some of them were there and the officers were mainly first war men, they would’ve been first war men, see the officers there.

So with it the other blokes they didn’t know much about it to teach us so therefore it had to be in the bullring as they called it, marching all different ways and everything and this sort of thing. Then teaching you how to be on guard up in the, take over the guard duties and that sort of thing, you know. But it was not until the end of it that things started to change and we learned different things then, you know how to use the rifles and different guns. And also all the other different parts as far as an engineer putting up

different constructions and things, you know, but not a much of it up there. It was there, but just the same, it didn’t turn you off the army but you thought that you know, it could’ve been a little bit better for it but then again when you stop and think, some of them didn’t have much training. So therefore you had to wait until they got more training and then the other camps they became a bit different later on.

Well at the Greta camp, while were there, while I’m on

it I can say, that there was a contest there for the Callette Cup. This Captain Callette, he was in the First World War in the engineers, and he donated the cup for this day, for all different routines for engineers. And the 9th Field Company and the 17th Field Park and I think it could’ve been there was, it could’ve been the12th, 12th or 14th Field Company as well, there would’ve been three field companies and one field park in it.

That’s the lot that goes into forming the whole unit like to make it a group, like a battalion, so many in a battalion, or a brigade. So with it there was those four of us, and in it the 9th Field Company won the Callette Cup. So they must have taught us something or what they did teach us they must have taught us right, because we won the Callette Cup and that was in the Herald and I’ve got the cutting of it still. Yeah, I take it down

Anzac Day and show it to the boys from the 14th Field Company because they march right behind us.

I didn’t. You didn’t. You was called in, put on the train, taken to Greta camp. We didn’t get elected or anything. We didn’t know we’re in the 9th Field Company until we got to Greta. And they told us, there was an engineers’ camp there as well, so Lenny went there. We didn’t know where we were going, or what, we didn’t know we were going to Greta, all

we known is that we were to take a cut lunch and right, we caught the train, the tram, and then the train and then we got to Greta we knew where we were. “Oh, we’re at Greta camp, hey, where’s that?”. We didn’t know where it was or anything but we knew we were there. Oh hot in the summer time, in December it was see, so and in huts, but anyhow that’s where it was, we didn’t know we were going to the engineers. It just felt and that’s were the 9th Field Company were going to be so that’s were we went.

Yeah, yep, at that time, 1940 you thought, “Yeah, we’d be going there”. Then 1941, well you’re still going to be going there, you know, in the other camps, but anyhow, that was there at Greta, and that’s what it was and I said, “No we’re going to”. Also when we were at Greta I turned twenty one years of age and I thought, “Well you’re only twenty one once, so out of here”.

Another bloke with me in my hut, “Joe the Lurk” we called him, he was a window dresser at Farmers, Joe the Lurk. He wasn’t a soldier anyhow, he shot through on the way to Glenfield, he didn’t go in another one, anyhow, I said, “Righto, I’m going, you coming? I’m twenty one”, so away we went. Didn’t think about Lenny over at the other one, in the band had to be there because they were marching you know and doing things in the day time and had to be there at parades and things and all that, so he had no chance of shooting through. Went over to Maitland then we went straight in the Hotel at Maitland, down near

the station and stayed there all day, because there could be Provos around so we’re not going outside, we’ll stay in here. So we went in there, stayed in there all day, drinking beer, we wouldn’t have drank a lot, we were only getting five bob a day you know.

Oh yeah, we’re in uniform. Went there then got back again. Don’t ask me how we got back to Greta because we would have had to got a lift or a bus or something, there wouldn’t have been a train, I don’t know. Anyhow we got back to Greta camp, went down the canteen that night there, only a dry canteen, no beer down there,

“Oh, where’ve you been?” No one missed us, got away with that one. But I got to tell you some stories after that that I didn’t get away with.

Doesn’t matter anyhow, I’m here.

Oh she was alright, I think, I don’t know, I can’t remember. The first time she seen me would’ve been when we went down to Garie Beach

and from there had to go up there to Lenny because he had been in a car smash on his way back to Greta and that’s were the other bloke was driving, I suppose they might have had a few beers or something and anyhow the roads wouldn’t have been the best that day, Wylblamy [?] and that’s where they had the smash. And he was up there, a fractured skull for some time, but in the end they pulled him through. Yeah, he was in a bad way, didn’t think he was going to make it, I think that’s when Mum would’ve seen me when I went home to Marrickville and Dad and I went up there.

Yeah, that’s when she would’ve seen

me, so it wouldn’t have been very nice for her knowing her other son’s in a bad way and I’m in uniform, yeah.

Greta. I’ve got to think. The first time the 9th had a guard, guard duty I was on it. I don’t know why they picked me, a little bloke, another bloke and myself and Lloydy Hoban, his father had the hotel down at the Usen Hotel, just where

Australia Square is now, it used to be the Usen Hotel, the Resch’s, the best beer in Sydney it was, and his father had the hotel. And he worked at Kent Brewery, Lloydy, so Lloydy and I were on guard and I’ve got a photo of us on guard, you know, looking like real soldiers we did, yeah and we was getting better as it went.

Well with it see, we weren’t twenty one, we were only twenty so therefore you had to have the permission if you was under twenty one,

that’s how it was early, things changed later as you can imaging you know, yeah we’ll take you mate but anyhow that’s how it was, that we were only twenty years of age. But Lenny wasn’t worrying about it, it was just me that I was, you know, but if I had of said to him, “Well I’m going to join up are you?” I’ve no doubt that he would’ve said, “Yeah, I’ll go with you”, that’s how it would’ve been, I know, knowing him. But

it was and that’s the reason why we went into the militia see, to do the three months camp. You did three months out, three months in and that is why we had to go in there. Couldn’t get in there quick enough, but we had to go in there.

No, no, no, they just had us down there at Addison Road.

Yeah, at Greta we were, that’s when we became. But when we were at Addison Road down at Marrickville there, all or anyone had to report, in there age group, they had to report there for training and that as they called it, you know just making sure keeping in touch with things. And then, then when we got to Greta that’s when I went into the 9th Field Company because they were up there,

officers and that and NCOs were already there waiting there for us. So I’d say they would’ve went there a week or two before. The band was there as well, they had an engineers’ band them days, and that’s were Lenny, like when we were at Camden, he was in the band, I was in the band, Georgie was in the band and I was also played in the orchestra for a while, a big orchestra up there for a while too see. So with it, and he just, and he loved the band, he loved it, so therefore that’s why

he said, “No, I’m going in the band”. Yeah, but that’s why at twenty years of age.

Yes, I was twenty one but another thing became part of it, was the blokes I met at Greta. They were such terrific blokes, knock about blokes from everywhere you know, with our float

we were the only ones from Marrickville, Lenny and I, but the rest of them they were from Newtown, Glebe, Balmain, Leichhardt, Drummoyne all around that area see. All knock around blokes they were, from working families and everything so therefore they were our type of, our type of blokes. And when I got up there, there was so many of them, it was so great and I though, gee I’m not walking away from these blokes, you know, I’m enjoying their company

and this is the reason why I was quite happy to just stay with the 9th Field Company at that time, and that was at that time at Greta. And then we went out for the three months break and that three months was the longest three months, I couldn’t get back there quick enough to it, you know. And anyhow I answered that question for you first, that one.

Well that three months break well

then we were called up again and I was the 9th Field Company so I still go with them. And I went to Glenfield camp, just out past Liverpool. We caught the train down to Central or it might have been Addison Road again, I’d say to Central, then the train to Liverpool, and we would walk quite a while before trucks picked us up to go out to the Glenfield camp. Well the Glenfield camp was only in tents

and it was in, it would’ve been May, June at that time when we went to the Glenfield camp. So you can imagine out at that area you know, like the planes, it was pretty cold and that and there was no hot water, and we were just in tents and we were there in the 9th Field Company and there was another group there at the same time, it was 57th Field Park, they were there, that was another part of the engineers. So the Field Park fellas were there and we were there at Glenfield camp.

And at Glenfield camp it got more interesting you know, because then right we had done three months so we know all the initial stages of being a soldier and then from then on we had a bloke there, Jock Goodall, was a rigger down at the, on the waterfront. Well all the knots we were taught all that sort of thing. You was taught more about the different guns what we had, how to handle them, you know. And also with the bivouacs started then, out on bivouacs

which you’d go out and everything, which one of them was great because we went up to Picton, Orangeville, Oakdale, out that area, and we went into Camden, my home town. So I was able to shoot up for a few minutes and see my grandmother and my aunties and them, you know. So I didn’t mind going on the bivouac and there you know. And Glenfield was quite alright there, you could see that was happening.

But then I had two mates from Enmore who were going to join up, football mates and I said, “Oh, righto then, they’re going to join up, here’s me chance, I’ll go now then, I’ll join up, I can join up now”. So I said, “Oh well I’ll have to leave them now”. But these other good mates of mine so I was still with mates, so therefore I said, “Yeah, I’ll go with you”, so I went and seen them and I go a notice which I’ve still

got over here today, with my release from the 9th Field Company to join the AIF and it was signed by a Major Boydall, Hal Boydall, and I’ll talk about him later, Hal Boydall. Anyhow he signed it from number 1 Divy [Division] or 2 Divy of the Royal Australian Engineers Headquarters. So I’d take, we’d go down to Martin Place and from there they’d put us in a tram and we’d go out to the Showground, Sydney Showground.

So we’d get out there and we’re going through and this is ten o’clock in the morning when I got there. Three o’clock in the afternoon I come to a counter and I go to the bloke, I said, “Righto there mate”, he said, now he says, “I can’t accept you for the AIF mate”, I said “You what?” He says, “No, you’ve been trained to be a soldier, you’ll be needed to train other soldiers”, “Oh come off it mate”, I said, “I’m a sapper. I don’t train soldiers, I’m just a soldier, and they’re

two mates of mine. You can’t, you gotta”. He said, “No, I’ve got my orders, I can’t. You’ll have to go back to the 9th Field Company”, “Oh damn it”. I go back to the 9th Field Company, I ain’t a bit happy, not a bit, righto then. So I’ll tell you before we go any further, those two blokes they went to Malaya, they never came back, so fate had it.

So you do as you’re told to a degree, a certain degree in the army. Going back well I’m not happy, I said, “Oh damn this”. So at that time, I’m playing football down at Henson Park, playing with Enmore and I’m playing down there and I had to shoot through of a Sunday, no leave pass, shoot through. So I’d just shoot through and walk down the paddock up the Glenfield and catch the train and go down there and play football

and with it, I had a crook knee, a dickie knee, I had, water on the knee they called it. So with it I’d go down there and come back and my knee would be up and I’d go to the RAP [Regimental Aid Post] bloke and I said, “Hey mate can you fix this up”, and he said, “Oh yeah”. So with it they gave me light duties working in the mess hut, spud barber and all this sort of thing. But I was doing all that and by the end of the week I’d be right and I’d shoot again and

play and I’d come back on Monday it was worse again. So still doing light duties. So I told him I said, “Look mate, what’s happening? I’m playing football, I go down every week, Sunday”, he says, “Oh, right, don’t you worry about it, I’ll get you on the paddock every week”. I said, “Oh thank you mate”. So he’s the RAP man, so he fixed it up for me and scotch dressing they used in them days, fixed it up, I’d go back and play, never got it pinched or anything

and come back home. I was on there for a while, I said, “Well this’ll do me”, then later on after the football season. Well then at Glenfield at that camp there, as I say we were in tents, and with it I was enjoying the company of the blokes, it was just that I was a bit cranky you know, but also there we would we were going on a route, we’d go on route marches of a morning you know, not far but just to get you out of bed and get you moving.

So with them, one of them a sergeant, he wasn’t a sergeant then, then he became a sergeant, Herb Walters he worked at Anthony Hordern’s, he had a good job there. So he said, “There’s a, Anthony Hordern’s Ball on, do you want to go?” “Oh, yeah I’ll go”, so another mate, Wilber Dylan, so we went to the Anthony Hordern’s Ball. So I went there, so I went with a dickie shirt on and all, no uniform.

I went back to Marrickville after the ball, took my sister because she was a good dancer, so that’s all I did if we went dancing anywhere I would take my sister a lot of times with me, Elba the eldest one and I’d take her. So anyhow, we go the ball I’d get back to Marrickville, get changed, go back catch the train out to Ingleburn and I’d have to get a bus or something to get back to camp at Glenfield. You’d have to be at midnight I suppose that’s the leave pass, but no this would be later than that

we got there. Now the next morning I’m on parade, I got changed, but I still got my dickie shirt and tie on. I forgot to taken it off, it must have been a couple of extra beers or something I think, I don’t know. But oh I copped a bit off the blokes, but nothing happened, I got away with it, I didn’t get caught for anything that time. But that was one thing that happened there at Glenfield. And also later on I’ll be able to tell you about different blokes were in that 57th Field Park, I’ll give you the message about them

later that we found out about later on in it. But then from that camp from Glenfield we moved over to Ingleburn. And when we moved to Ingleburn that was it, we were told “You’re not going out, that’s it, you’re in the army for the war now”, so oh righto then, we could get somewhere here now you know, we’re in.

No, we’re not AIF, we’re still in the militia, still in the

militia and so we’re in there. So righto then from there some of the eastern suburbs blokes called up, they came and joined us there. Another bloke a mate of mine, Woody, he was in the infantry but he was a tradesman so with the engineers most of them were tradespeople, you know chippies or bricklayers and all this sort of thing. But they were the ones that went supposed to be in the engineers, although we got a lot of men that weren’t you know but they

made sure they had to have a quota of those men. So this Woody came there and he came there from the infantry and stayed with us from then on. But a lot of blokes came from eastern suburbs and there was a few of them that came from the north shore, not many, but build up because some of the blokes that were there at Ingleburn, at Greta, they didn’t make the next camp at Glenfield, so we must have been down on numbers and then by the time that we got to Ingleburn

they’d say, “Righto then all number in”, and we got more quotas so therefore we would’ve became a full amount, we’ve got our numbers, I think its about two hundred and sixty seventy or something for an engineer unit. So we got all them blokes there as well, so now were in forever. Well from then on we did a lot of bivouacs and different jobs out there, we did bridging, and then from there from the Ingleburn camp,

with it we went up to Wallgrove and we had a camp at Wallgrove. And from Wallgrove we did bridging up at Penrith and this I remember one time at bridging there was in the night time and with it there’s a lieut there, Herb Tasca, a lieut, a Lieutenant, he was with us, somehow or rather he happen to fall in the river, I know the blokes who pushed him

but I ain’t saying anything about who they were, he got a real dunking. So therefore he knew that he was in with a mob of blokes that he’d have to, you know keep his eyes open and everything, he didn’t drown he only got pushed in the river. So that was one of the things up there but we did all the bridging exercises up there.

Well with it was like pontoons, and you would have to have them and lay tracks and join them together and

everything and not only that you had to do them of a night and silent, you couldn’t make any noise, it was all a silent thing and this is what the exercise was that you’re working in the night time to get a crossing over a river see, and this is what it was all about the silence part of it and because with them that’s what the main thing about the bridging part of it was, up there joining them together and everything, well we did that quite a, quite a bit.

We were yeah and flying foxes, to move things across rivers and ravines and everything and all this sort of thing. We’re learning different things now you know, we are becoming engineers.

Oh yeah, I was quite happy. I wasn’t a tradesman myself but I was quite happy to get into these things see. And later on when plumbers, and I went working with plumbers and learning about

plumbing and all this sort of thing you know. Oh it was great that way you could be with them, and not only that, I’ll tell you stories later on, falling of trees and all the things that you learned there. It stuck with me all the way through but it was, it was great. For being a man who worked inside, in a warehouse and office sort of thing, and to go out there in the paddock, you know and learning all the other side of life more or less you can say, and with men who knew what they were doing, tradesmen. Oh it was, it was great and we were learning something and I was quite happy about it all because I knew

the day was going to come where we were going to move somewhere you know, so there. And at the bridging there when we’d knock off in the afternoon we’d go across the bridge, the train line, we’d walk across that and there was a hotel there on the other side of the bridge at Penrith and the Log Cabin is on the left, the well known one, the Log Cabin, but this one was called the Nepean Hotel, the small one. So we’d go into the Nepean, and in the Nepean there,

why I tell you this story is the glasses they had there. They were the thinnest glasses I’ve ever seen anywhere, oh like real thin wine glasses, but they would’ve been schooners at the time. You’d go in there and you’re frightened if it had touched your teeth that they were going to break. They reckoned that there glasses came from Belgium. Well I don’t know where they come from, but oh beautiful and hold a beautiful beer, you know. Because them days well we were only beer drinkers,

we’re not wine drinkers these days, just beer. And to go there every afternoon, we used to look forward to that to get these glasses and that, that was beautiful, and that was another good side of being in the army at Penrith, yeah. But that was, that was all at Penrith, at Wallgrove rather, from Wallgrove up to Penrith. Ingleburn, Wallgrove and then all there.

They did mix in very well, very well. Some of them got out of the army later on, before we went away and that, but anyhow I can get to the other stories later you know, but you know yeah, they didn’t all stay with us. But quite a percentage of them did stay with us, from the ones at Ingleburn there when we said, “Right we’re in forever”, and at Wallgrove, yeah, yeah. And from Wallgrove after that

well then we were going to move over to the north shore, a camp at St Ives. Well with it, I know I went over with the first lot, because I was a bit cranky going over there because I was going away from a few of me mates. Oh he’s a cranky devil, and I said, “Oh damn it”, so I’m sitting in this truck this day and another blokes sitting there, Cordy Walsh, and he said to me, “What’s up with you? What’s wrong with you? You’re not talking to anyone?” I says, “Oh, don’t worry about it, I’ll be right”. So we get over

there and we laid down the area like and worked it out, where we’re going to put the tents and everything for the camp, for us to move over to St. Ives. And it was at St. Ives and it was on the corner of Richmond Avenue and I’d say it would’ve been Pittwater Road is it? Or Mona Vale? I don’t know which road it is, it’s one of those roads out there on the main road going through St. Ives, and it’s on the corner of Richmond Avenue. Because the showground was just a bit further up where the 17th Battalion were, they were up

there. Anyhow we were there camping and at this camp there was a small hut there, like a weekend hut there. And in it we got to have a look, oh mattress and all in there. And in that hut it was where a murderer hid out, hid out. His name was Moxley was his name, a murderer and they were looking for him everywhere, and that’s where his hideout they found it, right there where we put our camp. And that little hut

with the mattress was still there when we got there, it was at St. Ives Camp, Richmond Avenue. And so we were there and then later on the unit came over there, then all of a sudden there was a change. We had to send reinforcements to different units. Ocker Sindall arrived, a new major taking us over, and he came over with other officers and

NCOs from the 26th Field, 26th Field Company, it was only a young unit been only been formed for a while, and they all came from out the Illawarra area. Arncliffe, Rockdale all that area, that’s where all these blokes from the 26th, and they were only eighteen years of age, you know mob of kids, we were twenty two or something, now we were getting old. Anyhow they were in this unit and he had been the adjutant for the Lieutenant Colonel of

the engineers, Wynegar and anyhow he was given the job to take over the 9th Field Company. So with it I’ve got letters there to show you about it later on what happened there, anyhow we had to send reinforcements to different units. They were getting short of blokes coming back, units coming back from the Middle East and all that. This would have been in ‘41, ‘42,

this would have been in ‘42 you could say with it. Anyhow Ocker comes over, I better not forget a story about it because the first night he arrived in his tent, somehow there was an accident and his tent got burnt down. We’d lost some good men, we lost officers and Keithy Kiry he earned his pips with us in the field. There was sergeants there, Arthur White a good bloke, but you know had

been there with us for some time and we didn’t like the idea of losing our mates. Some of me mates from Greta, they were sent to different units, the 2/4th and the 2/5th and the 2/1st you know to enforce them, but we didn’t like it you know so we weren’t happy. So Ocker’s tent got burnt down that night, the major, so he could see, “Oh my god’s what’s going on here?” Anyhow we got through that and then he said, “Righto then”, he called a parade, “Any of you blokes

want to be in the AIF?” Said, “Yes Sir”, that’s when we all changed over into an AIF unit, and that would have been, I’d say about June, you could say June, July or something in 1942. That’s when we became an AIF unit, 9th Field Company. So everyone was happy now because you’re an AIF unit, “Our turns got to come soon”. So with it as we

know it did come.

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. Oh yes I know who set the tent on fire. I wasn’t in it but I know who did it, yeah without a doubt yeah.

No, no. He took it in his stride Ocker, he was like that. Ocker said he was in charge of the warehouse up in King Street, Thompson, it would have been Morey and Thompson I think their name was,

just as you go into King Street, Newtown, coming up past the St. Johns you know and all that sort of thing, the University going up there into King Street on the left, the big building there it would be still be there this building, I think it was called Morey Thompson or something, he was in charge of the warehouse there, Ocker. And with him well that’s all his job was, to be a major in the engineers would be quite unusual, but anyhow I’ll give you that story later on, about it, that part of it, yeah, but

we know who did it, yeah, so just like we know who pushed the, accidentally knocked the bloke in the river, the officers. Only the officers are getting into trouble here, you know, yeah.

More or less, yeah, yeah.

Let him know that he has got some men there to look after and men that were going to look after him more or less. Yeah that would

have been the message, yeah.

No, no that was later on at St. Ives this one, I’ll give you this story, yeah later.

Well at St. Ives we were there going out on bivouacs mainly there. And with it, well I’d had it, I’d been in the army for like

nearly two years, I’d done it all, I’m getting sick of this bivouac. So anyhow what happened one day there, they’re going on this bivouac, I says, “Oh, I’m not going”, “You’ve got to come, we’re all going”. Next thing I know, me knees up like a balloon, funny thing, I happened to find a penny in the heel of me boot. Something happened and it was up, there I couldn’t go. So I was kept in camp while they go on the bivouac. But I

was kept in camp, they got me, they tied me to my bunk, it took me about an hour and a half to two hours to get out of it. They said, “If you’re not going, you’re not going from here either”, so my good mates tied me up to my bunk. Left me there on me own, there was only about four of us there in the camp then all the rest had had it. So anyhow after two hours I think I was on my way to Sydney.

No they

didn’t know, they didn’t care they knew I wasn’t going, so there you are. But no, yeah me mate Woody one of them, yeah.

Yeah, it took me two hours to get out of it. Yeah and that night I was on my way in to Sydney, only to go into Sydney for something. Yeah, so I was lucky there and that was at St. Ives. Also at St. Ives there was a bloke in our camp, Freddy Goodwin, Frederick George we called him.

When I say there was some knockabout blokes this bloke was a knockabout bloke, without a doubt, he knocked about even then up the Cross this bloke and he could always get a quid. Anyhow he was always AWOL [absent without official leave], Provos [Military Police] would bring him back, bang, “Back again Fred?”, “Yep”, away he’d go, all the time bring him back, anyhow this day they’d bring him back. And me mate

Tiny Smith is with me, Tiny’s about six foot seven and as you can see I was about five foot four, and anyhow we were mates, he was a fisherman from Botany and a good chippy, top number one chippy, carpenter Tiny was. Anyhow he’s there, come back so, Tiny and another bloke from Botany, Shags Williams, he was that thin that we called him Shags you know, that’s how he was, so Shags, Tiny and

meself we were the guard to take him over to the guard tent, put him in the guard tent, and that this Freddy. So we were walking along a bit and Frederick George, the prisoner he said, “Tiny you must get tired carrying that thing”, he said, “Oh yeah why do you want it Freddy?” He said, “Yeah give it to me I’ll carry it”, so the prisoner carried the gun over to the guard tent. It was a great army them days I’d tell you, but anyhow that’s another thing that happened back there at St. Ives. Also at St. Ives

while I was there, I was sent down to, down to Mona Vale to the tent, to the surf club down at St. Ives there, and with it they had some of the 17th Battalion were there. So I was to go down there and I was to do the check out on all the barbed wiring that was all over the vegetable gardens and everywhere in the area there in case the Japs landed. So I had to go down and check it all to see if there were any breaks

or anything like this and make my notes and hand then in every day. Well I did this for about, I reckon about, three or four weeks down there doing that, and doing that, and I said, “Oh righto then I’ve done my job, I’ll be right here, and I’m getting a couple of stripes out of this and then I can turn on to those mates of mine”. So anyhow with it, this night came along and this young lieut, only a young bloke he was, and he came along and he said, “You’ve got to do guard duty tonight, up on top of the

of the surf shed”, I said, “No I’m here, doing another job for the engineers. You, you blokes have got to supply me with food and I can camp here. But no, I’m doing that”. Anyhow they got in touch and I was told, “No, you’ve got to do your guard duty”, and so I didn’t win that one. We had to look out of a night for the submarines, because at that time they were pretty prevalent all along the coast, people didn’t know it but they were up and down the coast everywhere, the submarines, those days. So we had to sit there

and look out all night long, so that’s what happened there. And also while we were there, one day we went down to the beach, Wattamolla is it? Warriewood, Warrie Beach to learn you know, on the beach and things around and doing work on the beaches and everything. And anyhow with it, this Tiny Smith and Williams again we went into Narrabeen for a drink at lunch time, Narrabeen Hotel, well we got in there and Tiny

and we’d all been in you know and done all this, “Oh we’re not going back”, so the rest of them went back and we stayed there. They came back at four o’clock, this was about half past one or so, four o’clock they came back, we’re still there, so we get in the trucks and go back to camp. When we get back to camp we’ve been put in, I don’t know why, only two and a half hours or something, got put in, I had to front them. Well I found out new velvet corporal, well didn’t I go and give him a blast. And anyhow

didn’t matter, so I had to front my, I had to front my major, and I fronted him. This time it would’ve been just before Ocker arrived because Boydall was in charge then see, it would’ve been just before Ocker arrived. So I had to front Major Boydall, Hal Boydall, so they take me up to him and said, “Alright then”, and he turned around and he said, “Soldier what would’ve you done if the Japs had of arrived there today?” And I thought “Oh Japs coming in in the middle of the day, what”,

I said, “Well Sir”, I’m only a sapper. I’m not sure what I’d do. You’re a major, you’d know what I’d should do so in case it happens again perhaps you could tell me what I should do next time”. Sergeant said, “You can not talk to the major like that”. I said, “But, but he’s a major, in case”. He says, “Righto Sapper Burnell, twenty eight days

CB [confined to barracks]”. I thought, “Oh god shut up will you”. Alright I got twenty eight days CB. So with that we have to do our pack drill of a night. And anyhow the sergeant takes us and we got to, he’ll stand there and at that time it was winter and it was like getting dark early and we had to walk up a certain distance and then come back again, we’d walk half way and say, “Oh he can’t see us, now that’ll do us”, we’d turn around, we’ve got our packs on and everything, turn around and wait for a while, “Oh

it’s about time we go back now”. So that’s how we did our twenty eight days pack drill and CB there.

Yeah, confined to barracks. So with confined to barracks, you’re confined to barracks. When the unit went on leave we’re there and there’s a cook or someone, a couple of them in the tent, so we’re down the bottom in the paddock near where the horse transfer, transport was, because the horse transport was part of the engineers them days. So we’re down there,

so we shoot through down the paddock, up to the Prospect Hotel, up there at Prospect, into the pub all day and then come back, we did that whenever they went on leave, so we did our twenty eight days CB pretty easy that time, that was the first twenty eight CB, buy anyhow that was that one, at Wallgrove. And then that and I said that I we went down to the other place then later at Wallgrove, later at St. Ives I was sent to a

demolition school up at Campbelltown and this demolition school, well there was only so many of us that went and there was few from another unit, but not a lot. There wouldn’t have been more than two dozen of us there, I’d say at this one up at Campbelltown Showground, that’s where we were camped at. And it was very interesting and something that I did enjoy, my father being a ganger on the road and talked about the powder monkeys and all that sort of thing, now this is what I’m going to learn about, blowing things up.

Because at that time the engineers’ motto was, make and break, you made things and you break them. So with this demolition, I think oh this is fantastic I’m going to be right into this, and I was into it and enjoying it and it was great. And around there, from there we did set up all the bridges around the Sydney metropolitan area, Tom Ugly’s, Meadowbank Railway Bridge and others that I remember and another and down to Pittwater,

did the road down at Pittwater, mined it down there. We had it all set up, all over the place there to get it all ready, all we had to do is put the last bit it in then bang, blow them up, that’s how desperate it was. And with that lot we also the Harbour Bridge, so how you going to blow the Harbour Bridge up? Took models of it up to the Hawkesbury, worked it out, argh there you are got it.

Can’t tell you how we did it or how it can be done but, you wouldn’t believe it if I did tell you, and you wouldn’t guess how it’s done. But we know how it’s done and that’s where it’s going to remain, how to blow the Harbour Bridge up. Today it would be a different thing altogether I know, but I’m still not going to tell anyone else, only the few of our mates that know about it, how to blow the Harbour Bridge up.

Didn’t have to, didn’t have to, no one’s told anyone. Well as far as I know, no one’s told anyone how we did it, no haven’t told them. And with it they were going to go up and down the coast, and word came through that the 9th Field Company were going to go away. I said, “Oh god, at last”, and this demo mobs going to go up the coast and everything. Leslie’s not going up and down the coast, so I put in for a transfer back to the unit.

Granted. “Alright then mate, if you don’t want to go, back to the unit”. So I went back. And you know what? Them blokes went up and down the coast doing all the bridges on peoples farms, if there’s a causeway, a crossing into their farms or anything, set the whole lot of them up ready to blow. Got back in time ready to go away with me. So there, smarty I was missed out on

all that, going everywhere. Every town nearly, the girls would put on a dance for them, you know, served him right opened his mouth again. So that’s what happened to me, that I missed out that and they got back in time, right there, so it was something about that, demolition school was great, and later on well it was used, it was used, yeah, up in New Guinea yeah.

Yes, it’s another one. Down there at Mona Vale Golf Course it was, we were down there and, oh we made a hell of a mess of their golf course, right near the beach, put tank traps all along there, double wire entanglements, all the barbed wire all around the place, all over their golf course, we went and we did it. But it was unbelievable that they didn’t worry about it at all.

When we knocked off we’d go up, they’d let us go into their club house and wouldn’t let us buy a beer, and that was the Mona Vale Golf Club.

No we were using it fair dinkum, that was fair dinkum, real fair dinkum, that one at Mona Vale there, on the golf course. And also we went to Manly, blew up the steps on Manly Beach, put all tank traps, pyramid tank traps

and barbed wire, barbed wire entanglements all over Manly Beach, Dee Why Beach, Narrabeen. We did it all, the beaches on the north side, as I say blew the steps up at Manly and down at Narrabeen. And also there people down there went crook about a couple of windows being smashed because it just happens that the boys wanted some fish and a stick of geli [gelignite] got us some fish didn’t it. But no, we didn’t do it,

but there you are. But that was it playing soldiers, but now becoming soldiers. And we were soldiers alright then but doing all these jobs around there, as I say with the demolition and then all the tank traps and entanglements. We’d been as I say, for two years now nearly and we were in the army a long time, we knew our way around army life, but we were kept there wondering why we weren’t going away see. But we were kept, we had, the jobs had to be done and we were the Engineer Unit

that they picked on to do most of these jobs. Nearly all of them, it was the 9th Field Company. And with it, I’ve got a letter there where Ocker Sindall wrote to Steele, he was in charge of the engineers and asked him, “In future if there is any chance of us getting our men that went away as reinforcement to come back to us, well if they were going to give us some more men, will they make them AIF men?” And with it,

he replied, he says, “Very much”, Steele replied to the letter which I’ve got and he said to it, he says, “The 9th Field Company are very highly rated. Not only by us here but by the officers of the Royal Engineers as a contact has seen you people work and you are a very highly rated unit and we will if, if we can, we will supply you with AIF men in the

future”, and that was the two letters I got there, so there you are. And this is why we were back there because we were able to do the job and with it and we did it.

A tank trap, yeah, it’s like a pyramid concrete block and they have them up there and also RSJs [shaped steel rails/girders], the RSJs like the rail,

RSJs. They had them up in between them as well and in between them was also the barbed wire, double barrel and also the barbed wire entanglements there on tripods. Well all those there combined into spaces and everything, they are the tank traps and they went on the beaches there, yeah. And oh well they couldn’t have got through them with their tanks or anything, you know.

It was to hold them up in case, that’s all it is, it’s a holding up thing and that’s how it was. Yeah, all those beaches on the north side.

Yeah, well when it was, from there we came up here, we came up here to Nelson Bay because the Yanks were coming and we were sent there to do a joint overseas operational training school with the Yanks.

So we get up here and there weren’t many Yanks, I don’t remember them here, there must have been that few of them. We came up and we built a wall on Little Beach, down at Nelson Bay, on Little Beach for their assault ship to come and bring their supplies and also we moved, we went in to Nelson Bay, and on the walk there we extended the walk at Nelson Bay there. And we had

the power to do it with the drills underneath, gas mask on it, and with like a jack hammer and that. Well we had the drills on in a line and a gas mask on and then we go underneath. No cozzies or anything on and getting the piers down and course you so, so many, so good mates along side you just starting to brush you, you know. Oh yeah at times until you got used to it, yeah.

And that sort of thing, but we did extend that walk down there and built the other one for the assault and with it when we knocked off we walked up the dirt road.

Yes, well we were up there and we used to knock off about four o’clock of an afternoon, you see. And there’s all kids living around the street living there and that all that you see, and I said to them one day, I said, “Hey lets get out here on the road”,

which you could them days, “Out on the road and we’ll play cricket with the kids”. So we went out and we played cricket with the kids you know, imagining what a boost it would give the kids, you know with the soldiers. The kids would say, “What’s your name soldier? What’s your name?” Well anyhow we had a bloke with us, he used to have a barrow down in Pitt Street, George Street, vegetable fruit barrows and them them days you had to register them. But he was like someone who didn’t register them,

but they had to keep moving them when they see the inspectors from the council coming along or something, they had to keep moving their barrows, if they got caught they’re in Long Bay for the night. Well he told us he’d spent many a many a night in Long Bay, but he’s alright you know, that’s all it was and that. And he was a real character, Serge we called him, he’d never be a sergeant or anything in the army but we reckoned he was good enough to be serge, so he got the nickname of Serge. So we go out there to play the

cricket and the kids, “What’s your name soldier?” So he’d turn around and he says, “That bloke there’s Aki Dummit”, says “Aki Dummit?” “Yeah, he’s the man who ate the most meat pies outside Grace Brothers in one day in the contest”, “Oh that’s alright and what’s that blokes name?” “Oh that’s Pussyfoot Johnson”, “Pussyfoot Johnson?” “Oh yeah, well Pussyfoot Johnson was the man who tried bring in, ban alcohol in the

United States, that’s what his job was, he tried to stop it all, everything, Pussyfoot Johnson”. And me being a bloke who liked a couple of beers, well in the army you would get the opportunity, well if you’re tall you’d get Shortie or Tiny or something and all these sort of things, you know it’s the opposite way generally. So with it me who liked a few beers well therefore they reckon that would be a good one, Pussyfoot Johnson. So another

bloke was there Jackie Walsh, he says, “That’s Cordie”, “Cordie Walsh?” “Cordie, yeah”. This bloke when he put a tin hat on, he was a dead ringer of these two brothers that came out from America riding on the speedway bikes, them days. It used to be on at the sportsground mainly instead of the showground and Cordie Melon was one of them, he’d say, “That’s Cordie”, you’d swear blind it was the same bloke. So there’s Cordie,

there’s myself. Who else? I think we’re the only two out of them, and his mentioned other names and that you know, but anyhow Cordie Walsh is still called Cordie today. I am still called Pussy, if it’s not Pussy it’s the cat you know near enough, they went, “Oh where’s the cat”, you know they getting a bit cranky instead of Pussy. And that’s how I got my name there and a lot of blokes don’t know where it come from. As I say and the women still

call me Pussy and they don’t know anything about so I put it on tape to let everyone know so as that’s where I got the name from, so that was it, up at St. Ives.

Yeah, yeah, now you know, don’t be afraid to call me. My twin brother’s son he didn’t, he called me kitten, he said I wasn’t big enough to be a cat.

Yeah, yeah.

Well with it when, after we’d knock off of an afternoon we’d walk up there on the dirt road into the Sea Breeze Hotel, it’s still there, of course it’s a bit bigger now than what it was those days. But this mate of mine Woody from Thirroul, ended up a Sergeant with

us, he’d go in, he’d go around the back way. We didn’t realise it but he told me a couple of years ago up here. He said he used to go in the back way into that Hotel, through the kitchen and into the bar. That got him in there quicker than what we would do. The reason was that they only had one schooner glass in that hotel, all the rest were small glasses and it was the only one, and he used to get in there through the kitchen and get first and always had a schooner.

So there you know real mates they were though, and that’s what happened there at that hotel there. But when we were over there at the, at the, at there doing that extending the wharf and all down there at Nelson Bay, well it was just all bush and everything. Some afternoons we’d walk across through the bush and go across over to Fingal Bay and have a surf because a few of them from eastern suburbs blokes they were there. And our corner

master, he was from out that way and so was Jacko, his brother played cricket for Australia and that’s where we used to go and there and have a surf because I was an old surfer, I learned it at Maroubra when we got to Sydney and that was it. So that’s all there was down there, there was a couple of little fishing huts, just a couple of them there at Nelson Bay and that is where I ran into trouble.

What happened this day was

that I came up there when I left the demolition crowd and got transferred back into the 9th Field Company. Our lot of them was still down there, the only one up here was number one section, so therefore number two was arriving in two days time. So alright I get in the tent and that and I’m not given any orders or anything so I said “Oh well I’ll just hand around for tomorrow and the next day and number two’s here and I’ll be right”. So it was, it would have been around about September I think and the wind was

blowing and it was a bit cold, so I get around near the side of a fishing hut. I said, “I’ll stay here for a while, you know this’ll do me”, I’m getting sun which I’m a sun lover, “I’m getting a bit of sun on me, I’ll be right”. Next thing this sergeant comes by, Pull Through Rogers, Pull Through’s about six foot four or something. He got the name through when you’ve got the 303 rifle, you’ve got the pull cord to clean your rifle with you see. So we reckoned he was that skinny you’d

be able to pull him through a rifle, so he got the name Pull Through, Pull Through Rogers. He said, “What are you doing there soldier?” I said, “I’m not doing anything, just here waiting for number two to come”. He said “What?” He says, “That’s not right you should be working”, “But I haven’t been given any orders”, “Righto”. Marched me up in front of the officer. “Oh righto then”, front the officer, Lieutenant Pryor was his name. Tell you more later about him. Lieutenant Pryor

anyhow he’s the bloke, so I go in there and he says, “So and so, so and so, so and so. You’re not a man soldier.” I said, “Is that so? I’ll tell you what we’ll do, you whip them pips off your shoulder, we go outside and we’ll see who the man is, ok?” He said, “Twenty eight days CB”, “Oh god almighty Burnell, shut up will you, you know every time you open your mouth you’re in trouble again, oh

you better cop this”. Twenty eight days CB [confined to barracks]. I thought, “Well it’s not going to hurt me up here is it?” I’m right on the water and everything so I had to do twenty eight days CB. I don’t know what it was because we were there, you know we knocked off work we went up the pub or went back and everything, no one was going anywhere else. So that was the best twenty eight days CB I ever had, but I had to cop it, you know. Yeah, just because he could think he could say what he likes.

Well you’ve got to stand up for yourself, I know army’s army and you take orders but no, I wasn’t going to cop that and that’s it.

Yes made some landings around there at Shoal Bay, that’s where I reckon we were making the landings. And with it we had live grenades and all. One of our blokes got shrapnel and everything and he got in trouble, he got his pension over it all as a matter of fact.

But it was there and they were flying over the heads and everything you know, it was real, supposed to be real fair dinkum stuff. We’d come in on the, and they’d had their ducks or barges as they call them, landing barges, we call them ducks and they had those and that’s what we’d land in and it’d be on. And also while we were there, the Westralia was parked. If you go into Nelson Bay today and look right across and look left a bit, up there, that’s where the Westralia, troop ship it was, it’d hid in there. So

we’d go across there in the barges and climb up the ladders with full packs, rifles and everything, climbing up there on these rope ladders for practise to get on board and to get back off again. And that’s what we did as far as the Yanks go and that sort of thing because I don’t remember much of them at all but I know that some of our blokes had them and had to teach them how to tie. They didn’t know how to tie a knot, later on found the water for them and also, and helped them build a hospital

and everything there. Because there was quite a few thousand Yanks arrived here, quite a few I believe and that was them who started that Gan Gan camp also I believe, yeah.

Along the road, this is Gan Gan Road going along there. Along there if you went in that way it’s very holey, a bit bumpy and that but on the left there, well if you go in there, into Nelson Bay on Nelson Bay Road you’ll see, look on the right there, and you’ll see a road in there, well that’s where the army camp was.

Where all the Yanks were and then some of our, it’s only up to this last two years that the army hasn’t been using it. They’d come down from Singleton to do manoeuvres and everything down here. And they were still using it then. It’s only been sold last year, the Federal Government sold it, but it was a bit ricky turn out, but anyhow they sold it. And now someone wants to stop them from building homes which I think is ridiculous. You want more people there, more people there, they’ll want to buy things and do things and it means the kids are going to get jobs.

That’s what I reckon about it, build the homes there. But you get some of the greenies around and they just don’t, it’s alright I’m living here, but don’t you live here. That’s what a lot of it’s about. Yeah but that’s Gan Gan camp and that’s what it’s all about, and the road. And to get in here in that wartime you had to have a pass to get into it from Newcastle or anywhere, you couldn’t just, anyone couldn’t just come in, you had to have a pass to get in here.

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, only for soldiers and that and the

people who were living here. Not everyone was allowed to come in. And also out on the point they had the search lights and the people there all the time on guard up there. They’d build a concrete bunkers and all up there, they’re still there. Where they built them up there and they had them up there in case of them coming in, because as I said very prevalent that submarines where around. People didn’t know, well they couldn’t tell the people there’d be too much panic about it see.

Here? No, no, no.

The only thing that I was, I happened to be on leave on the Sunday night when they came into Sydney Harbour. I was at out at home at Marrickville and I heard it over the wireless, “All troops, all troops, repeat all troops, must return to base”. So, “Oh well, we’d better go back to camp”, so we went back to camp. And that’s what it was when they came in there and got to Kuttabul, they missed what they were after, yeah.

That was the only one though of the submarines that I know. Although my mate who is in the navy up

at Cairns and they used to go out all the time of a night time, all the time, backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, looking for them then.

Yes, but on the way back we stopped, we went up to Lards [?] camp, just not far from here, up the Lards and there was a camp there. We went into camp there and just did about a fortnights more bridging at Hexham, around there in the Raymond Terrace area,

we did more bridging work there. I’ve got photos of it. Anyhow with it we were there and when we were at Lards camp, one morning we go in there and the blokes, some bloke says, “Start eating, start eating”, our breakfast, no we’re going right through and tossing it in the bin. So righto then, it was beans, beans, beans all we were getting you know. So righto, we walked out tossed it in the bin, “All back to your tents and don’t come out”.

So back to our tents we go. We went on strike, on strike in the army. We said, “No, we’re not coming out”, and they come around, “This is treason, this is so and so, youse better come out, youse are going to be in big trouble”, “No not coming out”, until they told us everything will be alright and the food will be changed. So we said, “Alright then, now that you told us it’ll be right, we’ll come out”, and it did. You know what happened about I’d say about ten

years ago? Our officer Vince Bonnet told me, the major paid for it out of his own pocket. Which you can, we didn’t know then, but you can understand it. If it had of got back to headquarters that the Major couldn’t control his men and they’d gone on strike and everything, treason call it what you like and that, mutiny, well it, it wouldn’t have done him any good you see. So he thought well the only way I’m going to get out of here with these

blokes and you know, he knew what we were like so he said, “I’d better get some going”. So he paid for it all himself, and that’s how the strike ended over there. So going on strike and getting away with it in the army, it was a funny place at times.

Oh, yeah, yeah, you know. Playing soldiers, chocolate soldiers, call them what you like but your in the AIF and the things you could do.

Yeah, no, no, we were in the

AIF then, yeah , before we came up here we were in the AIF, yeah.

Yes, after that. From that we went back to St. Ives then word came. He called us on the parade, he said, “Boys how do you feel like going away?” “Oh you beauty”, you know that was it, we’d been waiting all that, two years it was, because it was in December, November, December, so two years of it. And we’d started training before that even see, so we wanted

to go, straight away, no worries. So that made him happy, he was a good bloke Ocker, anyhow.

Horace Sindall, yeah, Major Sindall but no, it was Ocker, I’ll tell you a story later. Ocker that’s all it was Ocker, and he loved it, he was that type of bloke, yeah. But of course in an engineering unit see, it’s not very big and this is where officers have got the best chance in the army to do anything and get support

because they would get around and they’d know every man in their unit.

Two hundred and sixty I’d say, something like that. So they can get around and they’d know them all, and they admit it too. That this is the best thing to be in charge of, to be in charge of an engineering unit and they’d know all the men, the men know them. Because when you’re up there, well anyhow once you get away there’s no pips and no stripes there wasn’t or anything you know so you didn’t say major or sir or anything, it was just Ocker, Vince.

When we went to New Guinea, yeah the first trip, yeah and that was it. But it was Ocker before that and that was all he got, and he loved it, real showman.

Well,

We were at St. Ives camp and anyhow we got word righto then. We were going to go to Hornsby and march through Hornsby, because

he did like a parade Ocker, he loved a parade and everything. So anyhow, righto then so, I got word to my Mum you know that we’ll be there. So we caught the, we went from trumps up to, nearly, just on the skirts of Hornsby and we marched there down to the railway station or wherever it was, the shutting yards or somewhere, to get, to get our train. And of course there was women and you

know, Mums and all that had got the word, so there all there and waving us and everything like that.

No, no, no, just told them that we’re going. They knew that we were going to go but just didn’t know when see, because we had to wait to get all our equipment and everything. And I’ve got a knife over there, on the bench there, and that what’s held us up. We didn’t have this knife, everyone had to have one of them see. And that was holding us up and so

to be DPI which means you’ve got everything, you had to have that. And so what was that knife called? “Have you got your DPI?” It wasn’t called a knife, it was a DPI. And that, we got that well then we were able to go, so that’s it. So we caught the train there in dog carriages they were and some of them had their trucks on trailers and some of the blokes slept in the trucks, you know to go up there. Well it was a very slow trip you know, but on the way they’d get word at

a station or something and the women they’d be out there to feed us and give us a feed and everything, the locals you know. They really, it was great. So we went up to, I think it was Yeerongpilly where we pulled up in Brisbane, part of Brisbane, went there and we went out to Ascot Racecourse and that’s where we were camped. It was a big, big staging camp, Ascot Racecourse. And with it, we had to wait there until we got some more personnel to build it up

to our quota. And with it we got quite a few Queenslanders, that’s well they were all Queenslanders that we picked up up there and they had been in the bomb squad and some of them had been up to Horne Island and up there a bit, and come back again. And so they came and they joined us then. Nearly all cane cutters they were. From up around Cairns, Townsville, Innisfail, Ingham, all out that area and you name it, all around there mainly cane cutters they were, but oh good blokes. Anyhow,

Yes they were. We were going in there to town one day from Ascot, I suppose we would have stayed there only about a week or so you know, for it to carry on. Anyhow this bloke Cracker, Jack McCracken was his name so Cracker had to be the name for him. Cracker said, “You coming in?” And I said, “Oh yeah, I’ll go into town with you”. We didn’t know Brisbane, we didn’t like it because, well it was full of Yanks, and you had to pay big money you know, they were robbing the Yanks everywhere

there. Oh Townsville was a disgrace, what they were charging them you know of course we had to pay too. You know we weren’t happy about that still that was life. Anyhow going and he said, “Come on then”, so we get in there and he says, “Right we’ll go up to the red light district”. I said, “What? I’m not going up to the red light district. No, no, no, I’m not worrying about that”. He said, “Trust me come up with me”, “Ohh”. He said “Trust me”, “Oh, righto Cracker”. I’ve only known him a day or two. So up we

go to the red light district, we go up there, we go in a back yard and there is cobblestones, so there had been stables there and everything, and there was bench seats all along so we sit there on these bench seats. So as we get up near our turn to go in for the girl, well we were getting up there and he says, “Don’t move, stay there”. He goes down the end and next thing, up he walks up with a couple of Yanks and we got a couple of quid in our pocket and away we went. So that was something, we got our

money for our beer and the pictures and everything, yeah the Yanks took our place. So that’s why we went to the red light district. So we went back open air picture show, sit there and smoked your cigarettes and everything. Oh it was great, of course we had a few beers and, oh great life. So that was the start of knowing a Queenslander, from then on we did get to know them. As a matter of fact, one of them still living up there now is the godfather of my daughter and he is still going, and he is what eighty

seven, not very good, but he’s good.

Bro Dowling, yeah Ambrose, but he only got Bro and he is still Bro.

He joined us in Brisbane with quite a few of the others, yeah, so Bro. Yeah and I went to one dance there, another bloke Swannie, went there and he came from up north too but his cousins lived there so we went there and we took his cousins to a dance there one night. That was the only night time I went out to a dance or anything

up there in Brisbane. But and with the beers of course apart from that too that couple of quid we got well as you can imagine, well five dollars a day, well you’re not going to get drunk because you could get drunk one day but you’d have nothing for the rest of the week you know. So you’d have a few beers and enjoy it. So that was that one. So then we got on that train to go up to, we didn’t know where we were going, but ended up, up to Townsville. Well on the way to Townsville

we were going along and next thing, the train stops, we had to get out and push it. As I say well you’re in Queensland you know how far behind the times, so we had to get out and push the train, so we got it going again. Then we’re going along another place and we pull up at Ayres Station and there’s a bag there, ohh ham. Some of them, it wasn’t in our cart carriage, but it was in another one and I happened to know two of the blokes who

seen it and anyhow, but I don’t tell stories see, as you could imagine. Anyhow with it, they’d seen this and said, “Ohh right we’ve got a feed here”, and they go and get it, take it in the carriage and away we go. They go along and next thing you know open it up, it’s a horse saddle in a chaff bag. So there you are, so they just had to pelt the horse saddle out of it. And that, they’re soldiers you know, they come from all walks of life remember, you haven’t got all the office boys and all this and all the builders and that, you’ve got all other

types, yeah, which I could say a few too. But anyhow that doesn’t matter, you’ve got them all there, all mixed up together, but that soldiers, well that’s what they’re like so and that’s what it was. No ham but just a horse saddle, and so that was it. And one of the blokes that did it, he came from Townsville anyhow, he should’ve know better. So anyhow we got from Townsville and we went out to this camp at Noomba. Ohh hot and muggy, you know we’re not used to this

kind of weather, the humidity out there so, and rain and mud. It was just a mud patch out there that we were in, and with that. And there so we all had our hair cut short, you know and everything. Yeah, we had a bloke who was with us who was a barber, who taught me the game after the war, well he just got his clippers going all over us and that’s how it was. So we go into, we walk across a bridge, no leave but we’d walk across a bridge and go into Townsville. So we’d get into Townsville there

and at Townsville you had to buy your glass, to get a beer. So you went and paid for the glass and then alright, then you’d go and get your beer and then when you finished it all well you’d go back. That means that you’re not going to go and smashing glasses and everything see, so that’s what it was. But it was pretty dear in there and of course there’d be fights with the Yanks and the Aussies and everything you know. This went on, it went on everywhere you know, for no reason. Just to have a fight some of them it was about, you know few beers.

Oh, oh, I got on well with them. Oh yeah I didn’t, I didn’t knock them. Especially when we, when was it? It was when we came back especially, when we came back down to Sydney there. We used to drink with them in the Criterion Pub, Hotel on the corner of Pitt and Market, Pitt and Park Street there. We used to drink with them there nearly everyday with them, with the Yanks.

Well it was early

see, they were only just arriving and the story is that they’re pinching our girls, we’re going to go away and they’re going to stay and have our girls and all this sort of thing and this is where the blues would start, argh rotten Yanks you know and all that. But that’s all it was you know. Just stupid things like that, few beers, well righto then. Some blokes would only have to look, the smell of the glass of it and they’d want to fight, and I know a few of them. My twin brother one of them.

He was up in New Guinea.

Yeah, he was in Moresby with the docks, up there with the docks at Moresby. And while the raids were all on in Moresby and everything, he was there then, with the ships getting sunk in the Harbour and everything.

Before?

Oh, he could have been there five or six months before me. Could’ve been.

Oh yes, Mum had had letters from him you know, knowing that he was up there somewhere that’s all you know. So righto then, so when we’re going down there, we got aboard the troop ship the SS Caroona it was. It’s one that used to go across to Tasmania, a flat bottom thing you know, for the boat on the rough seas and everything, and holy hell when it would hit you’d think it was going to break in half. Anyhow we had to board that so we went down there to Townsville on the wharf and

boarded that. And as I said when we left there in the night time, it’s something that I’ll never forget. You didn’t know where you was going or what’s going to happen to you, you know. To see the lights of Townsville fade away, you know it was quite a feeling that you got to be there in circumstances you know, how it can affect different people and that sort of thing. And naturally, if you’ve got any feelings it must affect you, well it affected me a bit that way,

you know. But anyhow.

Ohh, you just felt, “Oh my god what’s going to happen now? Will I be back?” You know, “What is it? What am I doing here?” Things like that you know, but no, you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go. Because as soon as the Japs come in that’s what I said, “Well we’ve got to go, we’ve go to go, we’ve got to go, we’ve got a mother and two sisters”, and that’s all I was about mainly, you know going away, it was my mother and two

sisters. As I told you before, I’ve got a thing out there to say that I signed up for the country and the flag and king and country and all this sort of thing, but that, that was nothing everyone did it, you know you had to sign it and that’s all there was to it. Some of them might of did it but I didn’t know anyone who did it. And especially the first lot of the divy, 6th Divy boys and that, you know with them some of them, they wanted, they didn’t have a job, some of them didn’t have a job, some of them were criminals, been in gaol and this sort of thing you know.

That alright, this is a chance for them, they’re going to get a feed, they’re going to get money, and they’re going to get a trip. It didn’t worry them. This is what, how it was a lot of people, they still tried to push it down your throat but it wasn’t that at all, it wasn’t that. I don’t know any of our blokes that joined up for that reason, not one of them, no, and that. But as I was saying you can’t blame the fights, you can’t blame the Yanks, can’t blame the Aussies, it’s just a few blokes having a bit of fun you know and the fights would be on. MPs [military police] would come along

and that sort of thing but no it was nothing, no one got hurt.

That’s right, that was it, that was a must why you had to get away. It had to be stopped. You know you had a mother and you had sisters and that was the main thing. Like I wanted to go before but then, I was dead set wanted to get away you know because I didn’t want them to land in Australia,

no way, and that’s how it was. I wasn’t a hero or anything, I was just an ordinary young bloke who had family ties, that’s all it was, and that’s how the feeling was. So some of them had their wives, you know, had to leave their wives and some of them had children with us, you know but they still went. Because a lot of blokes there, older than what we were and that’s how it was, but they went, they felt they had to go, yeah so that’s how it was. But anyhow Len was up there before us, we

got on there and we were going up, we went up the Barrier Reef, oh beautiful it was. And something, like we’d never seen this sort of thing, it looks like trees growing out in the ocean and that sort of thing you know, it was just unbelievable and it was as calm as it could possibly be. And we went there and we got to Thursday Island, so we had to wait there for our escort, the Corvets or whoever was going to take us over, the navy, we had to wait there. So went we get there

anyhow we get there and Ocker says, “Right we’re going to have a parade, get out land legs, we’re going for a walk through the town here”. I says, “Oh well I’m not going, I’m playing it, I’m not going on the flaming parading, damn it”, so I didn’t go on the parade, I didn’t you know I was a bit of nidgery well I was at times. So anyhow they went on the parade, they go there. And it’s a story I can tell you because it’s the truth,

and it’s in there, got there from our sergeant there, and he’s even got it in his memoires about it. They went there and they’re walking along, the Torres Strait Islanders in the dark, indigenous we call them now you know, they’re calling out, “Shoot the white man. Kill the white man. Get rid of the white man. Stupid white man”. Well the blokes they said they didn’t like it at all and wanted Ocker to stop it and they wanted to draw bayonets and have a go, and Ocker just kept ignoring

on them and kept going. But this sergeant will tell you, in those memoires there, that’s what he said, he said, “We were not happy and the boys wanted to take action”. So that’s what I said about them, they went there, we were going up there to help to save their country up the top there, at that end, and all they wanted to do was kill the white man, shoot us. So that’s as I say, where things can happen and you get involved and that sort of thing. And then it happened with my mate up at Cairns in the navy, when the 7th

Divy were there and they went down the wharf and had a go then, stupid white man, going to get shot and all that, you know. It just wasn’t right, in those days you didn’t expect it and it was a hell of a shock to get it. Today the way they’re going on you know, don’t get me wrong, there’s good and bad in everywhere, everywhere on this earth, I don’t care where they come from or what they do. There’s good and bad and you’ll find, there a lot of white men I wouldn’t let through my front door, I’d tell you, so I’m not just picking on them. But I’m just giving you the facts

of what happened up there. And that was one thing that happened to us and we weren’t very happy see. So anyhow we get back, they came along, and the corvette the Swan, it took us over there and it got us there. And we arrived there at ten o’clock it was in January it would have been, I’ve got dates everywhere, January anyhow, in we arrived at Port Moresby. Because up on deck we’d get, because we had to see it, oh and it looked a beautiful peaceful island, this is great isn’t it, this is lovely,

we’re up here on an island like this, what a life this is going to be, you know. That sort of thing but still it really looked good. So anyhow we’d get off, and we got to hurry to up because he didn’t want to stay there long see, because there’s still submarines and everything around up there and that sort of thing, so he wanted to get unpacked quick he did. I walked off the wharf and who was standing there? Me twin brother. Great, because he had seen us come in and he heard it was the 9th Field Company, because he was a cook for them then, working on the docks

they were. He was in a house there and he could see it all and he was down there, so that was great. And I only seen him once more before I left, we were only there ten days, our section of the 9th, others stayed a little longer. And we went out and we camped out at, I think Seven Mile it is or Twelve Mile, where the airdrome is now, that area now. They took us out there, and alright we’re there, and you looked over and you could see, it wasn’t a mountain but a very high hill,

and you could see all the top of it was cut up, the top of it was cut off. You thought god look at that, who’d cut that off. Next thing, vroom, vroom, the roar, here they come. Holy cow, what’s happened, we’re here? What it was, the Americans had cut the hill off and they had their lightning planes, fighter planes there and they were twin fuselage, oh terrific looking things and holy hell could they motor. And they were, they had to chop that hill off so as

to be able to land and take off, and that’s where, and they came over the top of us. But I’ll tell you what we got a great baptism into the war zone I can tell you, oh it was unbelievable what happened there.

No we were right at the camp and they were coming straight over our head. They’ve come, we’re and there’s the hill and they’ve come straight over that hill over, holy cow you know. Because we’d seen that there was boats sunk already there in the Harbour everywhere, The Macdhui

the hospital ship it was sunk there. And anyhow, with that, so then we were there, and that night or the night after, we were going to go into Moresby to the pictures, no to the fights it was, the Yanks were fighting the Aussies.

Yeah boxing, we’re going in there, the rings there and everything. So for entertainment we were going to go there and watch them. Of course me mates wanted me to go and have a go, I said, “No I’m not going to have a go at this lot, no way”, so were there. So we go there and on the way back in,

in the truck, one bloke who was driving it, China Griffiths, he was in charge of the Grimes Parking Station down at Bligh Street there on the corner it was years ago, and he was in charge of that and he knew how to hand a car and trucks and everything. So we get in this truck and we’re going back and of course there’s Yanks there and he’s going to race the Yanks, we’d never been in this big truck before. We’re racing the Yanks, holy hell, when he got there he got out of that truck and he shot through. There was a Queenslander and there was Col Truman me mate from, they were going to kill him

because you know he was going to kill us before we go anywhere this bloke, and China just got out and shot through straight away. Anyhow we got back without anything happening you know, that’s just a, you know you’ve got to have funny stories as well as the rest of it and that was one of them up there. And then the next morning, right we’re on parade, and so righto we’re going to take Atabrin, and JJ this bloke he was a plumber, and he’d started alright he’s going to be a RAP man, a Regimental Aid Post you know, not the medic it’s the Regimental

Aid Post, RAP man. So he’s going to be the RAP man for number one section. And he was given the or was given the job to tell us how to take these Atabrin tablets for malaria, which we should have had months before we’d got there see. We didn’t have any of that till we got there, that was silly, that’s why we got malaria so quick. Anyhow he said, “Righto with these Atabrin tablets you put them in your palm and you have to take it out of the foil and put it in your palm and put them in your mouth and chew them”. So we

do all this and we chew them, well holy hell, oh the taste you’ve got no idea what it was like, oh my god, so anyhow we do. Next day we find out, you swallow them, you don’t chew them. You know what? Every Anzac Day this Doctor JJ is reminded about how he’s had to eat an Atabrin tablet. They’ve never forgotten him for it and he still gets it. I’ve had some, I took some down to him last year, just the ones I had left down in my drawer there, the

Atabrin tablets I had it, I’ve kept it because I kept these sort of things see. And that was it like, “Here are”, I said, “Now chew them for the boys will ya”, yeah, so that was it there. And as I say we were only there about ten days in Moresby and then we went down this night to check this coastal ship, tanker they call a supply thing going up around the islands there. We got on and there was, was an American there in charge because they were in charge of small ships and that sort of thing and that. And we went up the

coast and we headed up and we were going up to the Lakekamu River. We were going up and with it, we were all squeezed in and everything, and we got up there and we got to Yule Island. At Yule Island we had to wait there to get over the bar to get into Terapo to get across to go up the Lakekamu River. So we were there at Yule Island, so anyhow we landed there at Yule Island and the nuns were there, the Sisters of St Josephs I think it was, at one of them, because this JJ he’s cousin was there, she was a nun,

she happened to be there. And anyhow, so we supplied them with some flour and sugar and everything and they made us Gramma Pie which was my favourite, the way my Mum used to make it.

Gramma Pie, Gramma Pie, it’s like a pumpkin thing you know, gramma like that, beautiful with it and cloves in it and things and cinnamon on top and that. But no one could cook like your mother anyhow so it was just like my mother made but these nuns made for us, that and some scones for us. So we gave them a lot of stuff like that, see

they were running out of stuff. And we were there for and waited I think it was two to three days and then we were able to get across the bar, so we got across the bar and got to Terapo. And on Terapo we just worked there and tried to do something with the air, the air strip it was they had there. And that there, there was a place and with the mosquitos, all day long we wore, we worked with the mosquito nets over our hats and everything, we had fires going near the tents

all day, long sleeves, long everything, never seen mosquitos like them, unbelievable. Anyhow we were there for about what? Two or three days I think and then we got into the small ones to get, and to go up the Lakekamu River. And from the Lacky, going up the Lakekamu we pulled in at Otami was a place and I think it was the 12th Field Company they had a section of blokes there desnagging the river all the time,

and to go up on this river it was loaded with crocodiles, you would not believe it, hundreds of crocodiles. And the Yank in charge of the ship, he said with that he said they could jump up on top of it, on front there he said, so we had someone on guard up there with a brent gun all the time to shoot the crocodiles if they came up, and that was it. And on the night up there we’d just sat there and played cards because you couldn’t

sleep with mosquitos and everything you know just, we played five hundred about four, five, six of us, you know and that. And with it I say, going up there with the crocodiles and all, and with it, on this, these, this boats going up, going up to Yule Island, it was a bit rough and blokes got seasick, oh my god they were crook and everything you know. And with it all they’d give us was a tin of sardines or a tin of herrings or something between two of you

and that would be your meal for the day, so you’d just have that.

Yes. The Lakekamu River, I forget how many miles it is, but it’s quite a few miles to get into where we’re going into this Bulldog area. And as I say, the current is so strong coming down with the rains up the top coming right down there, and its right down into the swamp

area where Bulldog is, and coming right down onto the coast there. And anyhow with as you can imagine it’s sago swamp type of area everywhere there and of course crocodiles this is where they’d be living all the time see. And no one is there interfering with them so there just going to breed and breed, and there’d be so many, and there’d be hundreds of them, you’d see them there you know, and there they were. And the blokes doing the desnagging I reckon they had the tough job of that, you know keeping away from them and that, to get

through and keep it clear for us to come through because at the time, this is where they were going to try and get the supplies up the Lakekamu, and then when we started Bulldog, then it would be going along and then up over the top, over rivers and right up over the top and down into Wau. And that’s, that was the idea of it see, but yeah, the crocodiles there were very very bad.

No, no.

No we had never seen anything like it. But it just didn’t seem to worry us until we stepped on the land part of it you know. Terapo had been cleaned off, Yule Island was alright, it was beautiful and everything like that see, the missionary there. But once we got to going up the river, then we got to Otami, well that was as far as we were going to go, Otami, and we had to walk from there over to Bulldog. So to get from through there, that walk

there from Otami to Bulldog it was something. We had full pack, our blankets, rifles, everything to carry across there and this was real swamp thick jungle. We had a machete each as well, we were given them, to cut our way through as well as walk through. And to walk through you would be knee deep at times, and not only knee deep but your boots would nearly come off you because it was mud, so much swamp, you know. And

we had to do which they said about five miles. It took us three hours to just walk through there, just keep on walking, and it took us three hours to do it, but we got through it. And I’d say with our officer, Vince Bonnet, with his compass that would’ve been the only thing, because no one else would walk through there see and this was the first time it had been traversed that part of it.

No just our section,

Number Two Section, just our section alone. Which I’d say, what is it? About seventy men, sixty or seventy men, full strength you’d have about seventy men, so it would’ve been, could’ve been about sixty men or something like that see. And on that, so anyhow, that’s where we walked, and we walked across there and as I say oh it, and the heat in there everything about it you know, it was, it was tough

going because you could imagine we hadn’t been doing anything and that, we weren’t in any condition you know, but anyhow we got through it?

Mmm?

Oh it was alright at that time, it was alright at that time, yeah, yeah, yeah it did change. But it was alright at that time because alright, we didn’t know where we were going, we didn’t know what was in front of us or anything but we knew we had to keep going.

No.

No, hadn’t told us then, no, no, we didn’t know anything about it then. So right we keep on going, and we don’t know where the war is or anything you know, we knew there was fighting going on and that’s all, so only what we knew before we left here in the papers. So anyhow we get, we get through it and we get to Bulldog, right. At Bulldog there’s one section, I don’t know who it was, some company was happened to be there

because they had built a hospital, just a shack you know a long one. And they’d built that and started on the air strip because it was, it had been an old mining settlement apparently down at Bulldog, I don’t why, oh it would only be what had washed down that they’d find it down there. But anyhow with it, and there was a hospital there and a doctor there I know that. And we, our job,

start there was to improve and lengthen the airstrip. Had to improve it at the specky. I’ve got a photo of us standing on there the first day which you could see there was a big whole there. So we had to improve that airstrip in case they wanted to land there, well planes would land there, so anyhow that was it. But anyhow with it I think it would’ve been only four or five days that I went down with malaria. My

first attack.

Yeah, and with it on that parade where we were given our Atebrin tablets, Ocker, Major, he told us, he says, “The first man to get malaria will go on report”, “Oh god you know, what a thing, someone’s going to lose out here”. You know what when we were at Terapo, him and one of the other fellas, it might have been his

batman or sergeant major someone was with him in another small boat there at Terapo, who’s the first man to get malaria? The major, saved me, he was the first man in the 9th Field Company to get malaria, and he got it at Terapo there, so there you are, saved me from it otherwise. But I’ll tell you what, I don’t think he went on a report, somehow and that was

it, so there that was there. And from Otami and that and we arrived at Bulldog. Ok, we arrived at Bulldog and when we get there they had erected up a shower thing, it was like a kerosene tin on a rope, filled up with water, pull it up and under it you got, and that, that was it you know so ok that was alright and that’s how we had our shower. And with it as I say I got malaria, ok, I became delirious, they said I was out for three days

and that. And the doctor put a needle into me and he broke the needle and they said, “God, we’ll have to get the plane here and get him to Moresby, that’s his only chance”. The plane couldn’t land, anyhow the thing is, up there it’s one of the most dangerous places, it was then, to fly in the world because of the mountains and the clouds, the mist and everything, and they didn’t know you know, and they’d get lost and that’s what happened. You could only go to certain places at certain times,

had to wait for everything to lift before, that’s what happened at the battle of Wau, poor devils. Anyhow with it they couldn’t get the plane, anyhow I come round about two days, that would be five days later. A bloke walks in, one of my mates from Balmain, Conny Clarke, he says, “How you going?” I says, “Oh I’m alright I suppose”. He says, “Here you are”, and he gave me a chocolate. I’ll never forget that because he never drank in his life Conny, but he happened to have a chocolate.

How did he have a chocolate that wasn’t melted through and everything, and not only that, he gave it to me. You know that’s how it is, you can get mates and I’ll never forget that Conny Clarke, poor devil, because he’s not with us now but he helped us with another bloke before he died, I’ll tell you later on about it. Anyhow yeah and that was there so then,

Yeah, Dr Cumberland, that was his name, Dr Cumberland,

because I’ll be talking about him again later on too. And I’m not afraid to mention his name, the same as I’m not afraid to mention that officer, Officer Lieutenant Pryor. I don’t care, I’ve told them to their face, I’m not hiding anything, I’m just telling you the facts of war and the things that can happen and that’s how I read it and that’s how they’ve got to take it, and a lot of blokes agree with me too. Anyhow I don’t win any argument but, every argument but I win some.

Yeah so Cumberland was his name and that was it, so there you are, didn’t do any good at all. So after that I was able to get on my feet and that and we worked just around there for a while and they were going to run a, try and get the horse mob couldn’t get through over to Watakatami somewhere so they were gonna get a railway line, a small railway line and build it through there but they couldn’t because it was all swamp. We’d put down corduroy,

you’d put down corduroy, you’d put down more corduroy, it would go on and on and on, and it rained everyday, that’s the whole thing see, so it just sunk and sunk. Well in the end we moved on a little bit further after clearing it and doing a lot of that and we went up to the One Mile camp. That’s were we stayed there for a while at the One Mile camp, I’ve got photos of us sitting there at the One Mile camp. And we were there for quite a while at One Mile. And then

we had to move up again, you had to keep on moving. And anyhow so we moved up further and we got up, I don’t know how far up it was, but it was on the Ellower River and we had to put a crossing across the Ellower, Ellower River another fast running, because they were all fast running up there with the rain everyday see coming down from the mountains. So we had to put one across there and we had a camp just on the side of the Ellower River.

Well we hadn’t finished them all, we’d did so much, then we moved on and then the rest of our unit was coming up behind and they’d stay there for a while and then they’d move on, this is what it was. But apparently they had us as the front ones all the time, we were moving up the front all the time, number two section, and anyhow they’d keep coming behind, they’d be there for a while. But with it after we got, later on at Bulldog there,

when we were up near the top, that’s when they had the air raids down there at Bulldog, and they came there and they blew the places to pieces. Because this is all secret, no one knows that there’s a road going through, a supply line see, its secret this. So anyhow, the Japs come and they bombed it. There was one bloke with us, Wau Coffee, well he got his name Wau, Wau in New Guinea and it was known for coffee, sold

in Australia Wau coffee, so that was easy to give him his name Wau, so anyhow he coped that. And he was a bloke he would have been, he wouldn’t have been nineteen but I reckon he would have been eighteen, nineteen stone, very thick, very big young fella he was Wau. When we were up in the mountains later on, I’ll just jump the gun to finish the story about the Bulldog and him, as he comes through, he comes through there one day our camp and we were up at Blamey’s Spur,

ten thousand, two hundred feet up, and he comes through there and I said to the blokes I said, “Who the hell was that?” And they said, “That was Wau Coffee”, I said, “What?” He was ten stone, that’s what it did to him the air raid. Five hundred and eight had shot through and left them, there was only him and another bloke with him, Georgie Kramer another one of our blokes, another chippy, he was with him and five hundred of them shot through. You couldn’t blame the poor cows for shooting through you know, and they

had somewhere to go, we had nowhere to go, we used to have to say oh keep on going didn’t we see, but anyhow yeah they shot through. So and then when the timing got later on when he did go through there I didn’t know him, none of the blokes and that’s what it was, he’d lost nine stone, never put it on either, never put it on, he might have put a stone or so on and that’s all today, that’s what happened to him, yeah down there. Anyhow on the Ellower River and we were there doing a crossing there,

Oh, I don’t think we had any with us. There could have been some down at Bulldog, there would’ve been some working down at Bulldog helping us yeah definitely. But when we got up there to Ellower I don’t think we, I’m pretty sure we didn’t have any with us just then, we were doing that little bit ourselves there putting there, and putting the road through a little bit more there until we had to move on see. So I’m sure

we didn’t have any natives there. They were all down at Bulldogs I reckon. Well then we went there and we up to Dead Chinaman and that was a place that when the civilians were trying to evacuate from Wau, they went around the bottom way, a different way to what we were, but they went around by the riverside and then back down through this area, Foxes and Dead Chinaman, and that’s where they were going through and they were going to go down there

onto the river instead of going right to Bulldog, to get away from the Japs. And anyhow with it that’s what, it got the name because one of them was a Chinaman and he died there, so that place was called Dead Chinaman see and that was there. And so we went to Dead Chinaman, we waited there for a while and I think we could have got some carriers from there and went up to centre camp. Then to centre camp we were there and then we went up to Foxes camp, Foxes camp

was up further. And at Foxes camp the 2/1st had about, they might have had about thirty or forty blokes there, the 2/1st Engineers they were there and with them there was two of our blokes that had gone from us at St. Ives who were reinforcements. And when we arrived they put straight in to get transfers back to us which they did get, they came back to us. One of my mates Wilbur went in the same day as me at Greta and right through to the end of the war then but anyhow they came through. And from then on

we had to keep moving up further again.

Yes.

Clearing, clearing and trying to make a pad. But from there when from there, walking up from there after that river to walk up and to go up around this, this was only like a pad. The surveyors had been up there, no one else you know and it just like a bit of a pad, and to get around these mountains.

A pad is like a walking track,

yeah very small, a walking track it is. And to get around these mountains you’d be clamping to the side of the mountain to hold yourself on so as you didn’t fall over. You had your, you was in shorts and a shirt, or you didn’t have your shirt on, but you’d have a pack with you and your rifle and boots and socks, that’s all you had and you were going up. And our gear was left there, I think it was at centre camp was were our gear was left, and that was going to be forwarded on to us so therefore

we’ve got no tents or no flies or anything, nothing like that, were just going on our own, so we're starting there. And where all our stuff was left at centre camp well the natives would be bringing it up after and bringing equipment up with us, what equipment and any stores they’d carry it. But what happened, we’re heading now into the Kooka Kooka country and the Kooka Kooka’s cannibals, and they’re only about four foot tall. You should, you wouldn’t

believe to see them what they looked like and everything you know. Things through their nose and all that sort of thing and that, and the smell of them and their hair, oh my god, but anyhow, they were and they had attacked us, some of the whites before that and the natives wouldn’t go any further, they said no they will not go up near the Kooka Kooka country. So there was trouble there and they were coastal boys too, we didn’t know, I didn’t know at first it was the Kookas, I thought because they were going up the mountains they didn’t,

but it was the Kooka Kookas the main thing that they didn’t want to go. So anyhow they were carrying our gear up, we get to a certain camp, we find out that there’s nothing there, the natives had deserted some of them and what ones weren’t they’d accidentally dropped our gear over the side, our equipment, our food, it’s over the side, we’ve got nothing hardly, you know so, well we’ve got to do something about this. So Vince said, “Righto then

we go back so and so”, he goes back there and sees I think, I’m not sure but I think it was Parer had the line of boys there, Damien Parer’s brother, WO [Warrant Officer] Burnie Parer, I think he had the line of boys there, and anyhow it was him so he said “Righto then, more boys”. So he got them and told them and lined them all up and the deserters admitted that they had shot through and everything and so alright they got a good dressing down and that was it.

But anyhow, so righto then we’ve got to have some more names come up, so he said, “Righto then we’ve got to go and do it this way”, he said, “Let them go first and then we’ll be following behind and be right”. This was Vince Bonnet, our lieut said this. But then after a while, he thought, “God, we won’t catch them blokes they’re going too fast, we’re not used to this”, and they’re just walking along you know. So he fired a shot over their head, one shot

we were able to catch up to them, that was it. But anyhow then there was some more equipment lost so we had to wait and get some more boys, you know, that was it. So we got some more, it might have been another couple of days later and we carry on again. So righto then,

Went back, went back again.

Oh yeah, to us, yeah, there was cranks,

some of them were cranky oh my word. And we don’t know what they’re going through either see. They don’t, I know, we know they don’t want to go up in the mountain because their coastal boys see, they’re not used to it. So a lot of us could understand their outlook, because alright we’re there to save their country and everything, we think we are, you know and that and with them they just don’t want to go up there and they can just shoot through and go back somewhere. As I say we can’t we’ve got to keep going,

although I don’t think we’d shoot through, but we had to keep going, we had no choice so that was it. And anyhow some more of them did, so he said, “Oh this time I don’t know”, so he put one in front, he said, “Righto then”, Ray Geetsal was the bloke. Ray was the man who later on in life became the boss of the Miscellaneous Union, built it up to the biggest union in Australia this man. Anyhow he puts him up the front and says, “Right you go and go ahead and find a campsite for us”.

So with this time we’re walking up around these mountains you know, clamping onto the side of the hill. You’d, you’d only do about, if you did eight miles in the day, you’d be lucky. You’d be lucky to do that because you’re going, but with it you’re be going around the mountain and you’re turning around going back and you’d see where you’d been and you’re going around the other way. The loops, I’ll show you the map after and you can see all the loops and everything, but this is all they could do you see because you had to get up there.

No, no, we were climbing to the next camp see, to the next camp. So anyhow after we left this from then, after centre camp we were then going to head right up to Johnson’s Gap, that was going to be it, we weren’t going to do any more work from there, from just around Foxes, we’re not going to. So we left it and we got to head right up there to Johnson’s Gap on our own. As we’re walking up there of a daytime you’d

have, you might get a tin of sardines or a tin of cheese between the two you, that’s for the day, that’s for the day, that’s all you’re going to eat. “Okay that’s it, no tea, no breakfast or anything, that’s what you’re going to have once you start going”. So we do this and it’s was you know pretty tough but it don’t matter, anyhow we were walking up there and the rain would come but it didn’t worry you because you was perspiring even in the rain so that didn’t matter

for the time being then you know and that. And as I say but it was such a frightening and horrendous task to walk around these mountains, you’ve go no idea. If you read the stories I’ve got there out of all the papers and that, you’ll understand how bad it was and it’s all virgin country, the whole lot of it. Anyhow before we get to another certain stage there on our way, they’d sent Jackie Argyle he was a bloke who was learning to be a surveyor. Jackie

would’ve only just turned nineteen and he wasn’t a knock about bloke you know but a nice young fella Jack and so they sent him up there with a native. Koff [?] another bloke went up there with him and left and went back, and left him up there on his own with this native to see if he could keep on working the surveyor route through. He’s up there on his own, poor devil. Well you know what happened after the war? Lived in the Domain.

Became an alcoholic, died a young man, that’s what killed him. So that’s why I often look when I’ve been in Sydney and see these blokes hanging around and think well, you don’t know his story do you, you know. And a lot of them you don’t. And that’s was one thing with Jackie Argyle the poor devil.

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, it beat him. He never, ever got over it. Even though he stayed with us til we came home but he never recovered from it, he couldn’t.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you knew he was, you knew. Yeah, up at Lae there I was with him and that and you could tell that you know, oh poor Jack you know, that he wasn’t right, he came home and then he got on the beer and everything and oh. He came there one day where we used to have our reunions down at the Usen and he walked in there one day and the poor cow hadn’t had a wash for months and months and months. I gave him some money to go up to the railway and have a shower up there where they used to have them and that you know, poor devil it was a damn shame because

he was a good type of a kid you know and that sort of thing. Never hurt anyone. But that’s what happened to him up there.

I don’t think so. Some of them died young through, through it all, through fevers and all these diseases and things like this and other things that happened to them you know. There was a bloke there with us well he was a prescription, a chemist in the

hospital at North Shore and that sort of thing. But he was affected, he ended up getting strokes after and I think with what he was doing, he was that type of bloke too that could be affected you know. Some blokes you wouldn’t have picked them no matter what you do with them you know they feel it but that’s it, they could handle it. But these other blokes they had never been out in the world see, being there, and he was a chemist so therefore, never been in a blue or anything or been knocked over on a football field or anything you know. These sort of things were, it affected, I still say that, that was one of the

things that affected, that did Doc, ended up that how he become to get his strokes because it couldn’t have been his work because he knew his work, see. And there was no pressure on him where he was working and this is the whole thing that I think that happened to him and could’ve happened to a few other blokes and some of them did die young after. And this is why when we have our honour role, I put those blokes names on them even though they died after the war because it was the war that killed them I maintain, yeah.

Not climbing up but when we got up there they got injured, up on top, not climbing up. Because they say you had to watch where you was walking and you made sure you were watching, it was your life and in that.

No, nothing, nothing there to eat, nothing there, no. And especially, then after we got there, when I said, left there to go up, Vince Bonnet said to Ray Geetsal, “You go up in the

front and buy a camp, find us as site camp, camp site”, righto then, so Ray goes. So he gets up there with the natives and he’s in front with them and he gets up there and Vince says, “Oh this is be where it is. This is a camp site”, he has a look, “No, no Geeto”. He gets up, “Where’s Geeto?” He looks over there where the natives are all in camp over there. Geeto’s over there, built a fire for them, helped them put their tents up or their flies and that, helped

them their, gave them our last tine of bully beef, seven pound tin, gave them that and we had nothing. And Geeto gave it to them. And he said, “God”, he said “Did I give him a lecture that next morning”. But that was what he was like this Geeto, he reckoned they were there and he’d look after them, and he looked after them. And he is still doing the same today he’s that type of man, one of the whitest men you’d ever meet, Ray Geetsal.

Oh, we’d seen the Kooka

Kooka, yeah we’d seen them because where we stopped there at one of the camps on the way up, I’d have to have me tape and that paper there to read it all out to you, but one of them we stopped at we ran into the Kooka Kooka’s and they come over. And anyhow we, you know were able to tone them down a bit and then go into their huts. And into their huts you had to go underneath and crawl up through a hole to get into them, you know the way they lived in them and everything. But we said, “Righto then”, we must have stayed there for a week or two here because we had a little bit of kitchen there

we had you know for our food and everything and where we were going to eat when we knock off, and they raided it one night. So after that one of us had to sit there and you couldn’t see the little cows you know or anything like that with them. But then that was the only time and then they’d want to barter, you know. So, we’d give them some machetes or something like that and then we got on side with them and we were right, but they’d pinch detonators and put them in their nose, you know. So you can imagine you know the poor cows didn’t know that that’s how it was and they

were no trouble after we left them. I believe they had no more trouble with the Kooka Kookas because we gave them a few machetes or an axe or something like that, you know and they were right.

Oh yeah, as I say they didn’t worry us. But we didn’t know what they were going to do, you didn’t know. Because they had their spears and everything on them with them all the time so you didn’t know what they were going to do, but no we were fortunate that we were able to get on side with them there, yeah, the Kooka Kookas.

Yes, yeah,

yeah, yeah, I think they, they would’ve come good after that. The only thing that they would’ve fought with the different native tribes and that, we know that would never cease, it still goes on up there too, that wouldn’t cease. But with us, no they left us alone, it was great. Yeah, so Geeto did that, gave them the food and everything, he give it. He wrote all this down not long before he died and I was reading it only a few weeks ago and that’s what he said you know, he said of course he said, “If there had of been more

Geetsal, Geetsal’s in the world them days, there wouldn’t have been a war”. So that’s how he looked at it, the officer. Yeah, so anyhow from then when we left we had to walk right up on top and this day we were going to try and get to Johnson’s, to Johnson’s Camp, Johnson’s Gap so there was another bloke and I, we’re out in front on our own, we keep going. We’re walking along and we seen this native laying in the bush just over there off the track, just laying there.

“Gor, look at that bloke”, we walked over, cold as a bloke of ice, he was dead, poor devil. He’d had an pneumonia or something you know, and all just laying there, so we went over and felt him and everything and had a look and said, “God, and we were going to sit down and have a rest”, you know I said, “Oh well we’ll wait for a while”, and then I said, “Alright well we’d better go because we don’t know where were going. We don’t know where we’re going to end up or we’ll end up like him see, and without our tin of sardines and our couple of dog biscuits

or something for the day”, so we kept on going. Eight o’clock that night it was and we got to a place called Johnson’s Camp. This Johnson had a line of boys so they must have come from the Wau end I’d say. And anyhow we got to his camp and there was a fly there and there was I think six of our other blokes had arrived there. So righto, I don’t know where they came from, anyhow we laid there that night on the ground and everything you know, with just our

ground sheet, it was a “slicker” they called it, you put it over your shoulders and to keep the rain off and anything but it also acted as a ground sheet. So if you laid down well you wrapped it around yourself or something and that’s what you had. And for a pillow well you had your old slouch had, hat, you know laying on that, well that was your pillow. But anyhow I remember I woke up in the morning, I wasn’t feeling good or anything, would’ve been three o’clock or something in the morning, I just got up and sat up and that sort of thing, you know, and that. And in the morning well he said you know he didn’t want us to

stay but we couldn’t do anything else but he gave us some of their half cooked rice in a mug. So we had that and on our way. So then we had to walk to Johnson’s, Johnson’s Gap, well now were up in the Mossy Forest, the Mossy Forest is something unbelievable, can’t describe it, but you have to see it. You’re walking on top of the tree roots and everything, and nothing’s there the vegetation that’s all it is and its all moss. You’d walk along and if you slipped down

there in the roots well you’d go down, and they might never find you this was, and this is how you had to jump from one to the other to get across it, and that was the only way to get there. And also you’d see a branch laying here and you’d go to grab it and it was like a piece of string, it was all full of moss, that’s all it was, it was all moss and you’d grab that to save yourself you know a bit and bang and nothing there, that’s how it was. And with the tree trunks you were walking on top of them and that, the trees and that, the vegetation you know there was stuff

there but you wouldn’t be able to grow anything because there was no sunshine see, and that’s why it was also moss. It was unbelievable, we called it the land of the seven dwarfs. You know because that’s what we reckoned it was like and with it but anyhow, we got through it, we made it. We got to Johnson’s, we got to Johnson’s camp, Johnson’s Gap at last. Thought, “Oh God well we made it”, you know and that. Because you know we’ve only got our shirts and,

shirt and shorts on and at Johnson’s I reckon you’d only be about, oh might be nine thousand feet up. That’s about all, it would be round about the nine thousand feet, Johnson’s Gap and there were some of the 12th or 14th there because they were because they were working from the Edie Creek, from Wau, Edie Creek end at the other end see. We’re starting here, we’re going over there. Well we’ve come this end, they’re the other end. So therefore

they started from that end and they were working all around the Edie Creek area and they were just putting in a bit of bridge there near Johnson’s Gap. I know, I remember it so much because a bloke who was a sergeant with us happened to be there at their time. He went to them as a reinforcement a bloke from Manly, Harry Jones, a nice bloke. Anyhow they were there, so then that’s when we started to work from the top there, up at Johnson’s Gap.

No, yeah,

heading up to the mountain to go up again and then all the way along back down again. So with it there and I suppose I might have only been there a couple of days then I went down again with malaria, down I went. Only had to lay on the, some broken sapperments they had on the ground, you laid on them. I had malaria again, oh god you know this is, but anyhow I got through it again. So and then it started there we did, and then we were

there for some time working up towards Blamey’s Spur. Now Blamey’s Spur was the highest spot and it was ten thousand, two hundred feet up Blamey’s Spur. So between us and Blamey’s Spur was the headquarters camp, they had arrived there then and we were working up there. And when I was crook this time Jackie Argyle was working there as the Surveyor and I was his Chinaman. I was putting the posts in as far as he was telling me where to put them to get the grade to get

up see to get the jeeps and that later on to get the supply line up and down. So I worked with him for about three weeks until I was able to go back again and work again on the rock faces and all that and getting them. Well there we worked there and then we moved up to Blamey’s Spur and built a camp there. Blamey’s Spur as I say is the highest spot, round there and from there we worked back again, back towards Johnson’s Gap,

to where the headquarters, worked down back that way. We worked there and now at this time, we haven’t got much clothes, when we get up there we haven’t got a tent, we’ve only got a fly and we’re still waiting for more stuff to come up to us, blankets and all. So it’s pretty cold, three o’clock in the afternoon you can bet, that’s it you’re in the clouds, you’re up there in the clouds you can only see what’s all around you, the blokes there see. But

in that time when at Blamey’s Spur, just go around the corner from the Spur where we’re working you look down and there’s the dog fights all over Wau, the Zeros and our Aussie blokes, they’re having the dog fights and they’re below us and we can see them all down there. We had a few raids up at Johnson’s Gap but they just didn’t get quite to us they tried to, they tried to get to us you know, but they just couldn’t get the height up there to do it. But when, before I left Johnson’s Gap to go up there

it would been not long after I got there, I got, we were there and Bonnet, I’m going back now but I forgot, Vince Bonnet come and told us, “Right parade”, so we go there and we’re standing there and he says, “Righto, the Japs are coming up the valley, they’re wanting to get back over to Salamaua and they’re coming up the valley, each man will be given ten rounds”, “Ten rounds?” That’s all that we had see,

you got ten rounds and they’re coming up the valley. We thought, “Holy hell, well this tonight, this might be the last time”. You know what I did, had a letter from me Mum, I went and sat on a rock would’ve been midnight, I kept reading that letter, sitting there you know unbelievable I suppose this is to give you the story, like you know you’re a soldier,

things are going to happen, things might not happen and all this sort of thing. But when it comes, the crunch is coming and all this sort of thing, things can take over a bit, you know. Of course the first thing I think that most soldiers would think, not of their safety but home, and that’s how it affected me that night when I was there. And I’ll never forget it and that letter I gave it to my niece,

my twin brother’s daughter I gave it to her at Christmas in Queanbeyan, that letter. Because I’ve given letters out to all of them and that letter I’ve always kept and I gave it to her because there was things in there about her, about her father, he wasn’t with us then. But my mother kept writing to me, “You’ve got to claim Lenny, you’ve got to claim him, you’ve got to claim him”, and I thought “No way, wouldn’t bring anyone up

here, so I waited”. Well that will be a story later anyhow, no way, all I’d say is, “Yeah I’m trying Mum”, that’s all I can say about it see, yeah but that’s it. Yeah but up there, as I say, and we were up there at Blamey’s Spur and we’re doing it pretty tough. We haven’t got much food at all. We’d line up in the morning and there’d be something in a dixie. A dixie would hold about, might be five to six gallons of water I suppose, and they’d throw a tin of bully

beef in it and that would be, you’d have that before you go down and that. And you’d line up and they’d give you some broken dog biscuits to eat with a bit of jam on it and that would be to have a break at morning tea or something, there might be some tea, there might be some coffee, this is what might be and then if there was well you’d have that with that, and this was there til lunch time. And then at lunch time they’d bring back another dixie down to us and it’d

have another tin of ham and veal or bully beef in it or you know, but not enough to meet, to feed half a dozen men, because most of it was water. You couldn’t blame the cook because he had nothing to cook, that was the whole thing. One bloke with us Pidgey Bisica [?] , he lived in the eastern suburbs, out Waverley, Pidgey, I’ll never forget he took me the night before we went away to meet his wife, I had to go and meet her, so I went over and met her. Anyhow he became a good

mate of mine too, anyhow we were up there and he says, “Right, look, I’ll shoot anything, I’m a good shot. I’ll go and shoot a couple of pigeons and get that for you”. Can you imagine what feed sixty men or so are going to get out of a couple of pigeons. From that day on he got his name Pidgey and he died still called Pidgey, he died Pidgey Bisica but that’s what he was going to do, because he was the cook at the time. Yeah, but that’s, it was pretty tough, it was. JJ

our doctor now, he says, “Well the POWs behind our own lines”, because we didn’t know what was going on, we didn’t know anything about the outside world, we’d get a bit of mail now and then, we weren’t getting any newspapers, no parcels, no nothing, you know and that and we just had to do it. Whatsamacallit, the only bloke come through was a bloke by the name of Captain Black and he was with the YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association], oh top man, YMCA mob he was with, and he’d bring us some cocoa

and a bit of writing paper or something, something like that you know and that with him. And they reckon without him we wouldn’t have got through so they called us the cocoa drinking 9th for a long while, because that’s what we were drinking, cocoa, no milk, no sugar, nothing like that just cocoa. Oh when you think of it today, you know, but that’s it we can talk and laugh about it now, but it was a very very tough time. And with it you went to bed, well laid down, your clothes were wet, you got up

you had wet clothes, your boots never dried out, your socks, nothing, you know. And boots would fall apart in no time, you know so they had to try and get some more for you and oh this went on you know. Oh my god and it was cold too, later on when they only give us a few blankets and that and we had a tent as well as a fly it wasn’t too bad because there was six of you in it and you were close in a tent you know. And laying on it and that and we were able to cut some saplings down and lay on them and make a bit of a bed out of it, you know. You didn’t have nails but you’d tie it up with

the grass and stuff that they used up in New Guinea and that’s how we lived up there at Blamey’s Spur for a long time. Where, and you asked me before how the moral was, well the moral broke down a little bit there. Because you would understand you’ve got kids who’s there, the officer said in his memoirs, “They’ve only just left their Mums some of them, they haven’t been in the outside world. It’s very hard”. But he issued orders to his NCOs,

he says “I don’t want any more whinging, I don’t care what action you take.

As I said you know it was a pretty tough time with it that the food was so scarce, equipment, everything. We’re just using pick and shovels and then we ended up getting the steel bars and sledge hammers, seven pound sledge hammers into the rock faces to put them in to blow them up, because we had the gelignite up there and it was a

pretty dicey turnout because being damp all the time up there, it was pretty risky to having the gelignite up there you know and that, anything could happen. So with it, with that and we had the tap and turn as they’d call it. The sledge hammer would go wack and then you’d turn it and another one and then keep on doing it, and you’d take it in turns and like that. You’d be going, you know you’d just turn it around and that, it’s like what the miners do so, and with it and then we’d blow it down.

Alright, you’d have everything going and with it you’d have, oh well we’ve done a good days job here today, you’d go back to camp walk around the corner the next morning, the whole flaming mountain would be down, landslide. You’d have to all start again. On one occasion we started down there, and it was just on lunchtime, we’d knock off for our dixie of hot water to fill us up and our sergeant, Freddy Dickens,

Dicko he was called. Dicko blew his whistle to say knock off, we were right on this rock face, we just put our tools there walked back, within half a minute that mountain came down, straight down. Some said it might have been the sound of the whistle, the shrill, the high pitch of it that did it, they don’t know. But that’s how lucky we were, some blokes was still over the other side of the slide and we were on this side of it. And with it,

well pretty dicey and how lucky, half a minute none of us would have made it, we would’ve been all under it. And this is how we had to work. One time there we would have got night work, because we had to get it going and by this time things were improving with getting a little bit of equipment and we got trucks up there. They brought them and landed them a Wau and took them to pieces and they carried them, got them up to, and got them all together and then carried them to Edie Creek up because

couldn’t do any other way. So when they got them all together we started up there with them and we were doing the night work and with them we built a chinaman to get the metal and all, to drop in on top of the truck when he went in underneath and everything. But you’re doing the night work and you’ve just got dieseline drums going there and with it, with the truck someone would walk on the outside of the truck so as you wouldn’t go over the side. There was China Griffiths, Reggie Heart, Billy

Lewis, Connie Clarke, I think they were our four drivers and I walked alongside China’s truck on the outside of it, right on the side of the mountain. I had to make sure that I kept inside and all he did is he kept driving inside me all the way. It was pretty dangerous turnout you know, one slip and bang, you’ll all go, anyhow he got, and we got through there. And Vince would stand, the captain, he’d stand there where the chinaman was and making sure that nothing

happened and none of the slides or nothing would happen could fall down. Anyhow with his vigilance everything came right, nothing happened, we got through all that there. Then later on when the dozers arrived, this was pretty late in the piece, very late in the piece, dozers arrived, some dozers did go over the side. With it we had one fella with us a young bloke Brian Carter, he went over the side, very very lucky. Another one I know in number one section there was

two Queenslanders, Tuedo [?], Archie Tuedo and he was in the mines, after the war he became the leader of the Mining Union in Queensland. Another bloke with him Bill Darriker he was great man up in Queensland, won awards, citizens awards, state awards for all his time he gave for swimming, athletics and all that sort of thing. And there, they were tough men these men and anyhow they were there and they had the days

up at number one and this time that Lieutenant Pryor told them you know it would be alright to go there and of course Archie, “Yeah tell him, no you can’t, you can’t put a dozer there, no way in anything”, right over the dozer went, over they went, one man saved the other one. That was it otherwise bang the way it goes, but all because this officer he knew because he was an officer, and these blokes were miners and that and worked on roads and everything you know and they knew all about it

but wouldn’t take any notice. Anyhow that happened with the dozers, there were troubles like that. But also up there as I said about equipment and also food there was Simmo the quartermaster, greatest quartermaster in the, in the army, we all reckon. When we left Australia we were the best equipped unit ever to leave the shores of Australia and they got our equipment up there to Moresby.

That was all we seen of it because they couldn’t get it to us that was it, it stayed there at Moresby.

That was it the Americans they got down there just as we got down at Bulldog and they came there to have a look at it, and they said, “Oh righto”, went for a while and one of our officers said to him, Bob Hillman, Spike from over in Western Australia,

another man who got an Order of Australia medal for his work over there. Anyhow he said to this Yanky fella, I’m saying Yanky because that’s it Yanks and Yanky, he said to him he said, “What do you think of our work?” He says, “Oh I’m not impressed”, just like that, that’s all the answer he got, and they were going to go there and do it, and then they realised that they couldn’t get equipment and as you know the Americans have always had plenty of equipment.

They couldn’t get there equipment there so therefore they said it could never be done. He said, “Them crazy Aussies will never get the job done”. But anyhow, those crazy Aussies proved him wrong didn’t they. Anyhow that’s why the Americans tossed it away, they let us go, and we said alright it had to be done, so there you are. Well we were told it had to be done so we just had to do our job. So anyhow and with it, that with the trucks and the dozers because I don’t want to be going too long

but to give you a picture of the thing as it is you know. And with it, up there with the no food and all well something had to be done and Simmo, Ocker said to him, “Simmo you better get down to Wau and see if you can get something up her for them”. So Jimmy Lawrence who was the adjutant Captain at the time he went down with him, and they went down there, and Simmo told me that Ocker said to him on the side, he said “Look if you don’t get anything”, he says “Don’t come back”. Simmo

laughed he said “That’s what Ocker said”, so anyhow Jimmy happened to be down there and he found out headquarters there, there was food there, so oh righto then, Jimmy said, “Simmo get the boys, get that, take that, take that”. We got some food up there with the stuff that they didn’t accidentally drop over the side. It still happened then it was, some things were still getting dropped over the side, anyhow he got some up there.

After that Jimmy had his captain taken off him because of that. So he was sent up to work on the road with this sergeant bloke Noel Hollingdale, a man who played football for New South Wales just at the start of the war.

Yes, because he took stuff there. The CRE [Commander Royal Engineers] he had his food, see the CRE would walk through but wherever he went at Edie Creek or Wau or somewhere, he was

able to stop there have his wash, and have his food and everything, everything was there see it was easy for him.

Colonial Ryanhold from the Railways Department up in Queensland he was, and he wrote an article for the University of Queensland. I’ve got it all there, I’ve got it on tape even, all his. But he said, “Oh, they’ve got it easy up on top there”. How did he know? He’d only go through, he didn’t know what we were going through and that. And of course when Jimmy gets a bit of food for us, bang, he gets his pips taken off him.

But anyhow he went up there with Noel Hollingdale and he said, Hollingdale said to him he said, “Look you’re scratching around like an old hen with that shovel. Go and get your pips or something, you’re no good to me like that”. Anyhow he got his pips back on again but he didn’t wear they because you didn’t wear pips or stripes or anything you were just, you was just a soldier, that was it see, once your up in there, those areas. Anyhow with it he was down below one time, another time and he had a go at this brigadier, oh I don’t whether it was mange or what it was, one of them,

he had a go at him down there and he did the same thing as I did to Colonel Pryor. He turned around and he said, “Look if you don’t do something for my men, I’ll have you outside”, got his pips taken off him again. Just because standing up for him men, you know, anyhow he got them back.

Vince Bonnet?

Vince Bonnet, yeah. Well he was our lieut. He became a captain later on when he came back.

But Vince Bonnet he started off in the 57th Field Park he started when we were at Glenfield, he was in there. Him, Simmo, Jimmy Lawrence, Arthur Geetsal, a few of them were in this 57th Field Park. Of course when we came to St. Ives, what did they do? I said I had a story about the 57th. They came over and joined us, them blokes and a few of the those men and NCOs from the 26th, they came so we were all together again, like we were at Glenfield, 57th Field Park and the 9th

Field Company. And they came there, you know there were some good men there that came over with them but there were some there that should have been left in the school room. I’ll say it and I mean it, should have been left the school room. They were not, they weren’t, no way that they were soldiers and officers or sergeants, you know that should have been and NCOs. They didn’t do a job to help our cause or the job up there these blokes and they should have been left in

the school room.

Oh because they didn’t know how to do the job, they didn’t know how to handle men and they didn’t know. We could handle it, but they couldn’t handle it. And up there too when I said about Colonel Pryor he was up there and that was when there was the big trouble about him. Like I had my trouble with him at Nelson Bay and up there one time he wasn’t at camp and someone went into his tent and there was food under his bunk. He had a bunk there and he had food under it.

So they got onto it and the men closed hell about it. He had to get out of the mountain. They were going to throw him over the side and I mean they were going to throw him over the side. He had to go down to headquarters, so he stayed at headquarters then, he didn’t go back up there. And that was one about Colonel Pryor and I can say it because it is the truth, and one of the sergeants he has passed away now, Noel Hollingdale he told me at the reunion some years ago he said, “I wanted him court martialled”, he said,

“I went to the CRE to them, and I said I want that man court martialled. He’s stolen food from the men, the men haven’t got it and he’s got food there all the time”. He shot through, nothing happened to him, nothing happened to him, big joke it was.

No, the only bloke that was close to troppo was, we all reckon was, Bill Rhino himself the CRE, the big boss, because the way he was going. He’d been up there a while and everything and all

he was concerned was to get it through. Well that was his job but he wanted to push, push, push, push, you know. But he didn’t consider what the men were going, you know. We didn’t have much energy but we had to keep going and we kept going, and all that. But he didn’t give us any, no thanks for us or anything for the job or anything. We weren’t looking for thanks but we wanted him to lay off us a bit. And he gets into our Ocker the major, he got to him and he was going to sent him home, he was going to bowler hat him. And with it there’s no

reports of us in the war diary down there being up there. There is two, once (UNCLEAR) Jeffs went to Wau sick, Vince Bonnet was sick, they are the only two in the war diary down there, nothing else about us, down there in the war diary, about our time up there. There was no paper to write anythings on, they had to send reports in of a week or all that sort of, but there was no paper to write things on to send reports in, so there is nothing down there in the war diary. There is something else in the war diary ask me after and I’ll tell you later about the different stories.

But there is nothing there about that. There’s “The Guts” that we had printed when we were down in the valley, they printed a paper and we’d got a printing machine or something down there and they’d all typed it up a paper and we called it, they called it “The Guts” so to give us information about things, you know and that. But anyhow up there as I say and that was up there with him, and with the other two. I’ll get on to Vince Bonnet in a minute, but Simmo and them down there, to go down there and get all that food and we had another young

storeman there that was with Simmo, Georgie Toll. Georgie Toll would’ve been about five foot one I suppose only a little bloke. Another bloke, he hadn’t knocked around, he came in when he was eighteen years of age he’s not twenty yet, and he’s up there and he had a line of boys taken them down there to get food and bringing stuff up too. You can imagine a little bloke with him, with a line of natives and trying to get them down there and up again with them, no wonder they were getting rid of equipment and getting rid of it. They couldn’t get the stuff up there see. But that’s how,

that’s how it was and that’s how we had to live by it. But we got through it, I don’t know how, but naturally we come back no good. But anyhow that’s with those fellas there, but Simmo and that one was there, and Simmo went up and down that mountain, trying to get stuff up and down that mountain and all that and he was promised an MID [mentioned in dispatches], which he should have got but he didn’t. We got six MIDs handed out up there and that was one man Simmo, Les Simons should of got, but he didn’t get it. I don’t know who handed them out

but he should have been because they say alright doing more than what their duties says they do. But that wasn’t his duty, looking after native lines and doing that sort of thing, he only had to go to stores and look after stores and that see.

MID. Mention in dispatches, yeah mention in dispatches. Six of them.

Yeah, it was a secret thing,

it wasn’t to be publicised anywhere. Naturally we didn’t have any news people coming up there because they couldn’t publicise it, but it was in May 19, April to May 1944 before it came out in the paper and I happened to be home in Erskineville Hotel having a drink with a few of my mates and there is was in the paper. Oh what we have here, I said, “Look there are we have been up there”, yeah.

Well.

On the Bulldog Road? Well we started at

Bulldog in the end of January or, or the first week in February and some of us didn’t get out of there until nearly Christmas, so it was nearly twelve months. Some of them said alright, it came through in August, the line was open in August and some jeeps came up there and got through. But we didn’t, we still had to stay up there and keep the road workable and everything and some of us did not get out of the mountains until about, it would’ve been November at

the earliest, that they got out of the mountain to go down and to head down the valley.

Only supplies at the time then later on that was the end of it because the war moved on you see, it didn’t last long. And naturally later on the Americans were coming into Wau and everything and they wanted to go up on the Bulldog Road and have a look at it. And there was a company down at Wau, they got sick of going up there and pulling them out of a night time and everything that they blew a couple of the crosses of

bridges up so as they couldn’t get up there. They had to do it because it meant they were just going there looking after the Americans who wanted to go and traverse the Bulldog Road and that was it?

Yes, because it was famous then see. It ranks it says, it’ll tell you in the Australia Post, in the Herald, Courier Mail, all of them, the greatest engineering ranks with the greatest engineering feats of the two World Wars. And it would’ve been the greatest. Why it only ranks with them is

we didn’t belong to a division, see. All the news was division, I don’t knock them they were out there 6th Division, 7th and they were all doing, everyone was doing their job but our job was different and it wasn’t a publicity thing see. It didn’t mean much, it didn’t mean anything at home and that sort of thing but that’s why they just classed it as that. But it would’ve been, definitely had to be the greatest engineering force. It was the highest road ever built in the Southern Hemisphere that one was, and even the

colonel from England said, “Even over in Borneo no one went through and worked and put up with the conditions that those men put up with up in those mountains”.

Oh, I think I was skinny and I was yellow throughout but of course up there you didn’t get, you couldn’t catch malaria up there because there was nothing up there see

but you were still suffering from it. I was there one night, I got another attack and I was up there and they said only for Rocky Melville, Roy Melville, he was our RAP man Rocky and he pulled me through, they reckon he was back every hour to keep me going for two nights to get me through, otherwise there was no chance. They gave me some, something he gave me, that’s all he had and that, like with a lot of things there, there was nothing there.

No. We didn’t lose, there was some men lost but we didn’t lose any there. We lost them down further, down the valley, but we did have bad accidents. We nearly lost Freddy Dickens, the sergeant, and set about six charges say, and he was just working a bit further from Blamey’s Spur going back towards Bulldog, Hainings [?], Hainings it was and then there was Eccleson’s Gap it was there, well he was working back there towards

the other section. And he put in these charges they did and right, some of them went off and waited and waited and waited I believe and in the end we got word just down a little bit further to say that Dicko has been blown up. And he was blown up. So right we dropped our tools and there was Woody and myself and we raced up there to him. And to run up in that air you know alright, but we got up there to him and ended up getting a, making a stretcher and that and getting them and we had a jeep there by then and Jackie Derwin we got him into,

carried him down a fair way and got Der on the jeep and he drove down into Wau that night and got him down to hospital there and he was in there for some time. All his face masked and everything he was. In a bad way and he went for a pension and couldn’t get it but I ended up getting him one through Vince Bonnet our lieut. He kept a day book and I’ve got it and with anyone, blokes will ask me I’d say alright then, I wont lie, there’ll be no lies about it because someone else might want something and it was in there were Freddy Dickens was blown up and told them that we

were there and so with that they gave him his pension.

And that’s how he got it through that, all through that day book.

They wouldn’t, because there’s no papers and they wouldn’t believe, I’d been to a tribunal, a bloke who had dementia, Alzheimer’s they wouldn’t believe what happened to him you know. They wouldn’t believe our word, oh no but you must have had food, you must have had things like that. We didn’t have it, you know how did you survive alright, we survived, but they the tribunal, they brought a man from Canberra.

Yes.

Yeah, righto, Vince Bonnet you wanted.

The Valley, no the valley is later.

That’s right. Well

being up there as I say with Vince Bonnet the lieut, the greatest man who walked into the uniform. We all reckon you know, we had some great men there if you listen to me. As my wife said, “Oh yeah, they’re all great. But the trouble is that you lived too long together, everyone’s a good bloke”. Yeah anyhow yeah with the wireless they called for volunteers. We were down in Edie Creek by this time. We’d moved down out of the mountain a little bit, back through Johnson’s Gap where we’d started and just into

Edie Creek. Edie Creek would be about seven and a half thousand feet up I suppose and that and there was the minors up there so we stayed there and they said “Righto then the unit is going to get wirelesses”. I said, “Oh right, well I was in the Boy Scouts, I was in the Cubs, I learnt the Morse code and I liked it. “Right I’ll go into that, right”, because they wanted volunteers and no one else had done it I don’t think, only me. So I went into the wireless and we were up there in a, in a hut up at Edie Creek

where the mining place was. And Nick Gwinnen he was the bloke, he was a corporal so he got in charge of it, so Nick taught us and all with dit, dit, dahs and everything and all that sort of thing with the Morse code. I got the book with it all written where I wrote it all down and all that sort of thing, because I’ve got a lot of stuff here. Anyhow with it, so he started and took us on it and then there was another bloke there from Victoria who had a wireless. I don’t know what show he was with but he had a wireless there,

he could’ve been with the CRE crowd I’m not sure, Bill Williams or something, he was a first grade Aussie Rules player from Victoria, before the war. So I went down in the hut with him and with him, and became and did really worked the wireless with him see after learning it, so I got practical experience with him there. Anyhow we were in this hut this day and all of a sudden things were falling off the shelf and things were rattling, “What the hell?” We looked outside and had a look,

“Holy hell have a look that over there”, the whole mountain was moving, well not quite a mountain but it was a mighty big hill I’ll tell you, and everything, the trees were all moving and shaking and everything, I thought, “Oh my god”. You know this is something extra, you haven’t seen this. You’re getting paid to watch this, so yeah it was a big earth tremor and god it was a tremor alright. But that was the only one we had but it was something there and had everything falling off the shelf so there I was with him with the wireless for some time and I think

I would’ve been one of the last blokes to leave the mountains up there because some had gone down to Wau as well. Because we had to keep the road going down to Wau from Edie Creek. We had to keep it open as well because all the rain and everything you know you couldn’t get the cutters big enough, so we had that work there from Edie Creek down yeah, but that was the wireless there. And then from there when I got to Woppit, by the time there after a while we did get wirelesses down there. And I moved along to the different areas down there with the wireless Labu,

Gabensis, Garrigos, Dex Camp, Wok and all these places. And I can tell you stories about that after you know but this is a little bit after the wireless part there.

No, no, no, no, no, nothing like that. It was mainly to headquarters, CRE headquarters and other, other parts of the unit, letting them know, you know what was happening, if anyone’s coming

through or if this had to be done or so and so, letting all the, about the work programmes and mainly all that sort of thing you know, and also to the CRE and others would ring up and they’d come in, in and then you’d have to decipher it all, you know it would be in secret message. Then you’d have to decipher it on the day and then tomorrow it’d be a different type and you’d have to decipher it all, put it in the same thing in code and then take it the messages you know. But I enjoyed it because I could handle it to and you know I loved it,

I did I loved the Morse code.

Monuments, there’s monuments for us, the monuments there for us doing these, getting the roads through, all the way through. The first one is at Bulolo, on the side of the road at Bulolo, I’ve got the photos there you can see later, it’s on the road to Bulolo the first one, it’s there. These’s another one down near the new bridge at Markham Point,

Markham Point there, where they used to cross there and the Japs would come and across down there at Markham Point and that’s over that new bridge, that’s where it is, that monument. And then the same monument, the same thing, it’s up in the Lae Cemetery there. So they really appreciated the job that we did you know. I found all this out when we went back in 84 those monuments were there then. It did give us a bit of a lift then we thought alright we didn’t do it for nothing, they

appreciated it.

Yeah, yeah, all of them see, because and that’s where that road from Wau still goes down that way. They can go from Lae into Wau, Bulolo and down there now, on that road?

Oh, you’ll see them, there cement blocks with the big plaque on them, yeah, big bronze, bronze plaques on them, with the engineers.

Yeah, well that happened when I got to Woppit this happened.

Got down to Woppit and anyhow with it Vince Bonnet calls so many members into his tent this night, he says, “Fellas, we’ve got to go on a patrol”, it’s the first patrol for the unit. Well the engineers don’t go on patrol, it’s the infantry you know but the Japs are trying to get back from over the Lae area and over there trying to get across to the coast from Salamaua, so he said, “Right we’ve got to sent out a patrol. I want a call for volunteers”, I said, “Oh righto Sir, I’ll

go”, I said “Pidgey will go, Cordy’ll go, Geeto’ll go, Woody’ll go”, “Sapper you’ll speak for yourself and yourself only”, “Oh righto Sir, righto, I’ll go”, anyhow and that’s what the start of it is, so we went on patrol. He wouldn’t let Woody go, he wouldn’t let Cordy go, and he wouldn’t let Pidgey go. He said, “No those men are wanted for other duties”, but Geeto went with me, which was the main thing which I was happy about too was

Geeto. So Geeto went with me, anyhow we were going along this, I think it was, it could’ve been the second day, it wasn’t the first day because we had to walk through this flaming Kunai grass, oh up there the Kunai would be six foot, seven foot tall and you’re in it and you can’t breathe and then you’d get through there and we had to get over there to this Benzor [?] blokes camp one and we had to get over that area somewhere, you know because that’s where they’re coming across from Markham to go across.

Only a few, we only had a few natives with us on it, you know just to carry our fly and a few other things that we might need, but we didn’t have much food or anything even there to carry with us you know. And with water we were drinking muddy water all the time there because, oh it was a shocking place down there mosquitos and everything down that area that’s where it is, that area down there. But anyhow and it is wet all the time, but anyhow we’re going through and we’d set up our fly this night, put wire traps around

it, around it all in case the Japs come and run into us you know and everything and the next morning up again and away we’d go again. And this day we’re getting towards a native village, we didn’t know at the time, but anyhow this is where we were going, we’re walking along there and one of the natives up the front with us he’s carrying the brent gun and he turned around and he says, “No carry tarbitor, no carry tarbitor, me no carry”, so Geeto was there he says, “Oh alright boy, alright boy, you go to the back of the line, I’ll carry, you go back

there”, and we were told the simple reason why he didn’t want to carry it, they reckon the natives can smell them, the Japs they knew, well that was what we were told. But after reading a book later on I think some of the natives were still working with the Japs in that side and the other side of Lae up there too. In the area some of them were still working with the Japs, we know that for a fact because it’s in the book, this bloke wrote it Peter Read, “Fear Dry My Feet” was he wrote, he was up

there as a young bloke he was but anyhow he wrote that. I run into him when I was up there funny thing in ‘84. But anyhow with the natives they said that he could but we said and he said, “No”. Some of them were working so they might have known that there were some there. So we get to the village and we look around and we said, “God this place is dead”. Have a look nothing about there, “We’ll go and have a look right, you go there, you go there”, scouted out and we’d go into it and we couldn’t find anything and we thought, well you

couldn’t have a blast that huts or anything or do anything you know because there might be women and kids in the huts you didn’t know what was going on see. You seen a couple of stray dogs because their dogs are always bones, they’re only bones their dogs up there the poor little things. So anyhow with it we looked around for a while and we said, “Oh well we’ll just keep on going”. We went out and waited for a while and didn’t see or hear anything and we kept on going but I think that’s where those natives might have been a little on the Japs side or there might have been one or

two or something but alright we kept going and that’s it. Then two days after that I got word, word come through to me that I had to go back to, I had to go back to Woppit because the wirelesses arrived and I was needed back there. I went back there next day down with dengue fever, crook again, you know well I said no wonder with what we were going through and drinking the muddy water and that I said, “Something had to break down”. So

I had dengue fever down there for that turn out. But anyhow then we got on the wireless and went to camp there and we’re in at Woppit this time and headquarters was across the road and we’ve got our camp here and there was Captain Whitehouse’s tent was along side us, and he was there for all the metals and everything, to see what metals would be the right things to use, and all this to put it on the road and all this to get it through and all that and his camp, tent was there. And he complained to the,

he went and complained to Ocker about the language in the wireless tent. So I was called over, “Sapper in the tent, there has been a complaint language in the wireless tent, it’s got to stop”, I said “Who complained?” He said “Captain Whitehouse”, I said “Did he? Oh, I’ll tell you what, when you’re on that code, on that Morse code, you’ve got to make sure you get it right because you’ve got to decipher it when you get it, you can’t make a mistake”, and I said, “You’re trying

to get someone to pick up your message, you’re trying to pick their messages up. What would you expect, a man to sit there and say Oh damn that? It doesn’t work like that. The best things you can do, get the captain to move his tent over here because we’re not moving, that’s it”. Never seen Captain Whitehouse after that. Argh, unbelievable.

Yes, that’s when I

claimed my brother Len yeah because we’re down there now I said, “This is getting a bit better now, he can handle this”, and he was in the docks, another docks the 2/2 I think now, over at Lae and he went through the bombing and everything at Lae there as well. So righto then claim him, got there, righto claimed him and because what I’d done I happened to gone down there and gone across and found him at Lae you know there with it. And I said,

“Righto I claim you” and I went back and that’s what I did I claimed him and his come across there and he came up there in a jeep one day heading towards us the blokes are, “Argh Pussy”, “Hey Cat”, they’re yelling out to him like one thing, they though it was me, it was, it was Darkie my twin brother yeah, but that’s where he picked his name up from there Darkest, Darkie, yeah he was Dark you know because the voice of his you know, so that was it. He’d be there at times and

with it you know they’d say, “Oh, there’s Darkie there whispering again”, you know but that’s what it was but he was right and we were back together again, and everything was right yeah. Mum was happy. That was the main thing, Mum was happy and it was getting easier then for us, it was getting a lot easier, we were getting food, we were getting warm and everything you know.

Yes down at Woppit. And then moved from Woppit, I went up to the Dex camp with number two section got there and set it up there and from there

I went down to different ones. I went straight, I went to down to Labu then to the furthest right opposite Lae in the Ewan Dock. So I went down to Labu and set the wireless up there and I was there for a good while at Labu. Then later on I went back and set up another one up at Garigos, I was only a Sapper but I happen to know, you know, as I said I was fortunate that I’d been as a kid that I’d learnt it a bit so it was easy for me to pick it up. As one bloke said you know, “God I used to love to hear you”, he said

“You used to make it sing”, you know but that’s how, because I was used to it, other blokes had to learn it. I didn’t have to learn it. It was good, I enjoyed it all. But only thing is I smoked a lot then, I smoked, I smoked forty cigarette a day because I could get Yanky cigarettes, Chesterfield or anything like that at that time were great you know. So I was able to from Lae, able to get Yanky cigarettes.

Oh, I don’t know now. It wouldn’t have cost much

anyhow, because it wasn’t much money tobacco in them, those days you know. And we were getting plenty of tobacco too then you know, because before that you’d always roll your own and up in the mountains while you was flat out because the glue had gone you know and with it and also matches they’d be gone. You had to have wax matches, if you didn’t have wax matches well you didn’t have a match up there see in the mountain.

I write to him, no, he goes to his CO [commanding officer] and said my brother wants to claim him, claim him to go, he wants to come to my unit and I want to claim him and they’ll say, “Righto then, get him to send a message through that he wants to claim us, give us his army number and everything about it and his unit number and if he’s got his okay from his OC [officer commanding] okay forward it to us”. So I send it them and they say, “Righto then you can go and join your brother”, and that’s what happened.

And up there, up there we had seven sets of brothers in our units, seven sets, two hundred and sixty men, I don’t think it would happen anywhere else, seven sets of them who were brothers, only the one set of twins but seven sets of brothers which was great.

I got leave, I don’t know how I come to get leave you know, but I did I got some leave to come home

and I came home and when we got to Sydney you know, we got, that was the first time, no, yeah came to Sydney and that and with the leave, I know there was an officer and a sergeant major and a few there, I think someone altered the papers. We were to come home for a fortnight, well fancy coming home for a fortnight there, you’d have to go there, you’d be on your way back again you know before you arrived home.

No he wasn’t there because he’d been home a couple of times see. He’d

been home from Moresby and then went back see so he’d been home but anyhow with it I went home a few of us went home there and with it, we ended up with about sixty days leave, it was unbelievable. And in that sixty day leave I met Vince Bonnet our lieut, he was sent back then to become a captain, and I spent nearly everyday with Vince Bonnet down having a few beers and that nearly every day of my leave except when I went up to Camden and I took a girl to the

pictures one night and that was the only time I took a girl out in all that time, in two months. So there you are, that’s what happened there.

So Vince Bonnet me lieut, me mate, yeah.

Oh yeah, right through, we used to be after the war, well after the war when I moved to Greenacre there playing golf with him, I worked with him, his uncle had a shop in Beamish Street and anyhow with it he’d come and I used to make special tea and special cakes or sweets

with him every Saturday night and after all that listen to the wireless or watch TV and then he’d drive home to Penrith to his mother.

Well I think it was mateship was the main, was a lot of it you know. So you had your mate, or your mates, whatever it is, like when we come home the second time. I’ve got a photo of us outside the Criterion

there and there we are about seven of us. We used to go in there nearly everyday and meet again. You just couldn’t keep away from them you know, that’s how it was. As I said we became a family and we did become a family and we’re still a family now as I tell you with the wives, I write to them and they write to me and everything and all these sort of things and with blokes ring me up. We’re still family even though there’s not many of us left and that’s how it’s been with it because we lived in a world of our own, if you could imagine it, no one else.

Well then I went back and I called into Anoomba again and the bloke wanted me to stop there to look after all the sport equipments and everything. He says, “Look the sergeant does this job. I’ll see him and you can be a sergeant tomorrow and look after all this part here”, and I said, “Oh that’ll be great mate”, then I said “No mate, I’ve got to go back to my mates. No, no, I’m not staying here mate, I’m going back to my mates”, so I went back and joined them at Lae and from Lae

they were getting ready then for the whole unit to come home and that’s what happened because some of the division crowd they’d shot through. They’d been to Egypt and been to Italy and everywhere you know Greece, Crete they’d seen that much, well they were getting, they were sick of it, I know for a fact. One of my mates next door that lived at Greenacre there. He said they were sick of it he didn’t even want to go but he went anyhow he’d go back. And anyhow they’d shot through and instead of us coming home,

mob had to go to Jacquinot Bay in New Britain make a landing there so they said the 9ths here they’re a good company in they go so that’s what happened. So we put on a Liberty Ship, Sterling Morton or Morton Sterling or something it was and it was just a big shell it was the Liberty Ships and we were put on that to go to Jacquinot Bay. And with it to going over there no paper to be through overboard, nothing at all to go overboard or anything, you’ve just got to drop

everything so we’d stay up on deck of a night time there. What we did is get a blanket and have a condensed milk tin and get under the blanket and light it and put a hole in the condensed milk tin, put the cigarette in there, and light it and hand it around and we’d all have a smoke that way on the boat going over.

Submarines still around see.

There all about there so therefore they could see something, pick something up, well bang,

their heading somewhere, so we got to Jacquinot Bay. And then we got to Jacquinot Bay…

Yes, as I say we went there and we didn’t know for how long or anything but anyhow, we were only there for a short time we found, drilled and found the water, filled all big tank for anyone whose coming up, as there was more coming behind us see, so we did that. And it was

as I said a beautiful place Jacquinot Bay, but we wanted to go home. But anyhow then someone went out on patrol up there but wasn’t our section. But then it was only about three weeks I’d say that we stopped at Jacquinot Bay, and word came through that alright now 9th get ready you’re going home, well that was going to be something extra special. So alright we get ready all ready and we’re waiting there,

for the ship was out there we could see it, it was a datch cuttle, a Dutch cattle ship it was called the Van Jous (Sp?), and it was waiting for us out there. So they had to bring the barges in and pick us up, and as the barge was getting near the shore to us, the ship took off. “Holy hell, what’s going on here?” Good God I seen men break down and cry,

because as I said there are a lot of young fellas, and that you know, that had waited now for two years since they left home, waiting to go home and they were going home and then to see that ship go it must have been a terrible blow to them. But anyhow with it, all of a sudden they got word to it and it turned around and came back, well that was lovely.

Yeah, so we boarded it on the barges and climbed up and got on to it so we’re on our way home. So we called into, I don’t know whether we called into, no we called into Finschhafen on the way going up to Jacquinot Bay and anyhow we come back and we pull in at Cairns up there, and it’s oh a real swampy area it was, tide must have been real down, and we thought god look at this joint, and we look

over at the shore there and there was this white building, a hotel, “Oh you beauty”. We sat there on that cattle ship for three days, wouldn’t let us off, they didn’t know who we were, we didn’t know where we were going, we didn’t know where they come from, they didn’t know were we come from, you know, so we just had to wait until word got through that it was the 9th Field Company and we landed there and after three days they let us step onto

Cairns. And that was it and I always said to my wife, I said, “There is one place I’ll never go back to and that’ll be Cairns”. Who do you think went back to Cairns last year? Oh, men can be weak at times, can’t they? Went back to Cairns and enjoyed it all, and showed her the spot were we pulled up, still swampy and there it is the wharf and everything and the white hotel and all and there it was it was Cairns, yeah so that’s the story and

there you are the 9ths home, you beauty.

When I went back I did, yes, yeah.

Not originally, no, no, it was straight there on the trains and away we went. And we got to I think we got to Anoomba again, to Townsville well we pulled up there and said, “Righto then we’re going in for a drink”, and that no one’s allowed to go in for a drink or anything like that, we went in for a drink and that and we got a few bottles of wine, something plonk it was

that’s all plonk to drink on the train going back. We got there and we walked down to a park it was and there was a toilet so I went in the toilet and told the taxi to wait for us, we come out the Provos were there, the taxis gone. Took our plonk and I think they were in cohorts with the flaming Provos. Took us there so wasn’t there, we were locked in the gaol in there, we just arrived home see, go back. So anyhow Ocker said, “Righto then”, no it

wasn’t Ocker he wasn’t with us then, so it must have been someone else. Anyhow they came in, talked to the Provo’s and they said, “Righto then take them”. So they let us out and that’s what we did, so they had little to do them blokes, we weren’t interfering with anyone you know, and we were going back to catch the train back to Sydney so that’s what we did, we ended up back at Brisbane and then back to Sydney. So more leave at Sydney for a while which was great and that’s were met everyday nearly

in Sydney having a few beers with your mates. You’d been with them for two years you’d think, “God no I don’t want to see him again”, but with our crowd our section that’s how it was. We were there all the time. And then down to Wagga, down to Kapooka Camp we went down there.

No not at Bondi, I think

you might refer to a girl at Enmore. Yeah, this happened it wasn’t my fault. I’d been up there anyhow a chap who was living at, boarding at our place down at Marrickville well he was going out to Bondi for the day. I was on leave and he says, “I’m going down to Bondi to surf”. I said, “Oh righto mate”, he says, “Do you want to come?” I says, “Yeah I’ll go with you”. So he says, “Righto”, so I go up there walk in the back, down to back lane into Enmore, up there

into the kitchen. And there’s blonde hair with, beautiful blonde hair and she’s fixing the wireless, the mantle piece wireless, just come home from mass, getting onto John Harper with all our music and all that sort of thing see, oh yeah, and she turned round and I said, “Oh yeah”, so we went to Bondi for the day and that was sixty years ago and here I am still looking at that blonde, sixty years you know,

it’s a long time but that’s how I got conned into getting married you know. Blonde hair and that sort of thing and you know only being mates as mates no girlfriends, friends and that’s all. So I got conned mate, well that’s my story anyhow. But one turned out of it, I’ve got a lovely daughter. So there you are, I’m not complaining.

Oh, I’d say so, practically yeah, I’d say yeah. Well I didn’t let go anyhow, I’ve got to admit that. But then she had a bad time, she got a spot in the lung and her sister had just died, that was just before that with the TB [tuberculosis] and she got a spot and she ended up in the Queen Victoria Home which they had for the girls them days. Of course they looked after them and she was born on a farm up Maruya and

hated milk and they had to drink so much milk a day up there and her stomach with her trying to drink milk all the time but anyhow it cleared her up and there you are, she is still going today.

Yes, yeah, I made sure of that, I got to admit it, yeah it was going yeah. I’ve got letters out there to prove it.

Well we got down there and being how we were some of them you know still weren’t fit enough for it you know and they decided to put us through an assault course. Well doing an assault course you know after what we had been through and everything and we know other things and that and we thought alright they can train us, physical exercise and all this sort of thing. Anyhow it ended up none of us got through the assault course, they didn’t make it. We filled up half the hospital,

we were always half you know, there’d always be a dozen or more blokes in the hospital there at Kapooka, it was the engineers camp, so that was it. And so anyhow they decided well we’ve got to look into this and they had a look at it all and they said, “This unit is not medically A1 classification. So therefore we’ll have to disband the 9th. So they were going to disband the 9th Field Company, well you couldn’t believe it you know,

we’d been in it ‘40, and this is when was it ‘45 this is, been together so much went through so much together, and everything and so no, they were going to break us up, so break us up and down there I was supposed to go down to Melbourne on the wireless, and I had a mate in the orderly room Georgie Mimas [?], the Balmain boy, number one Balmain boy he was, matter of fact his nephew is the man

whose the manager of a lot of footballers today, George Mimas. Anyhow Mimas was in the orderly room and we were very close mates went in the same day at Greta with us and with it I said, “Look George, I’m not going down there”, he says, “Well all the wireless blokes have got to go or you wont be going anywhere with us”, I said, “Well I don’t care, I’m not going down there”, “Oh righto then”, so he worked it out he says, “Righto we want some drivers”. Garrow will teach you how to drive, Frank Potter an older bloke he was,

very older bloke, Frank, Garrow. So we reckon he should have been in the Garrison Force see, so we called him Garrow. So anyhow that was it, so he taught me how to drive a truck, double shuffle gears you had to do it and all this, oh god it was queer them days to try and do that sort seeing as I’d never driven. Anyhow naturally they passed me and I got through it and I became a driver then so I stayed there. And with it some of the boys, Ocker was down then he’d been back and he was at Wagga so he they

organised a crowd to go to Bougainville and he was to take a crowd to Bougainville but none of us, there was only about two or three of our blokes went with him except one of the Officers Spike Hillman who is still living in Western Australia. Spike was young lieut with us well anyhow he went over to Bougainville there and seen a bit of action over there they did. And then they had another crowd, they were going to make a Mechanical Equipment Company and they made it, the 8th Mechanical Equipment Company and we

were sent up to Harris Park, up at near Parramatta at Lancer Barracks it was, so we moved up there and quite a few of our mates, Woody and a few of us we happened to stick together and got into that lot and we went up there, at Lancer Barracks and that’s were it was that we joined that and the only officer with us would have been Rex Booth he was our only officer there was a couple of the NCOs with us, and I say a

few of my mates so we were quite happy. But I was convalescent at the time then I went into convalescence at Ingleburn but they were going away and they were going to go, the story after I was told, we were going to head for Java to make a landing at Java and the greatest thing happened to us to families and all, they dropped the bomb and when they dropped that bomb, that was fantastic, as I’ve said before my

mother she was happy, wives were happy, sons were home, husbands were home, it saved a lot of lives even though what happened to the rest of them over in Japan, you got to think of the lives it saved Americans and Australians. Because we were going to go to Java well just think we’ve been in the army five years, we’ve been up there, we’ve been through things, we’ve made landings and all this sort of thing you know, we’ve had air raids and all. And so

therefore now for this to happen it meant that everyone was safe and we were right. But what I forgot to tell you up at Jacquinot Bay, we had air raids every night at moonlight night, every moonlight night, bang, over the Japs would come air raids that’s why we hated the beautiful island moon lit night, we didn’t enjoy them at all. But lucky we escaped any damage but they were there to do us.

Well they had air raids up at, up near us at Bulldog but they didn’t quite get to us, but we could hear them and everything and then we were watching all the dog fights down at Wau. There was when we went on patrol well you didn’t know what was happening, what was around the corner or anything on patrol there was no use kidding yourself, you’d have a feeling there. And also because we weren’t Infantry men, we weren’t trained for that but still we had to do it. But

also the big one down at Bulldog that’s when a couple of them really got stuck into that one down there at Bulldog you know, but apart from that no we got none up the mountain and we were safe then because when we got down into the valley even though when I got to Zenag, when I got to Zenag on my way to Woppit some of the Infantry boys were coming back and they said to me then, I said to them, I said, “You know, where’re you going?” “Oh I’ve been down so and so”, and I said, “Well I’m heading down there”, and they said, “You’ll be sorry mate”, I said, “I don’t think so”,

just like that. I knew I’d be warm and I’d get tucker. So no matter what happened it was going to toss the coin you know but that’s how I felt about it, I wouldn’t have been sorry about keep on going, and that’s one. They were still coming back from there the infantry there from laying out that turnout then because that’s where it changed then that landing at the all the planes, the parachutists at Lae landing down there, the divy blokes. Unbelievable it was we heard this roar going you know you could hear the

roar, what the hell’s that roar, the roar. No it was all the planes going there, you know over there. Then by the time we got across to Lae well everything had settled down see and that was it, so we were very fortunate, could have happened but it didn’t, very fortunate people to get through it.

That was the whole trouble that was it see and with it they weren’t built enough, up enough yet to. Not only that after the war you still got malaria for another two, three years you kept on getting attacks of malaria but we just come back then you know and it was different and they told you, you know go steady on the beer. Yeah we’ll do that alright and they reckon that sort of thing can knock you about a bit too see. So I suppose that might have been helping a little bit but still there

is still so many of us still getting this malaria attack. Oh and dengue as I say it is unbelievable how many of them are going through it all the time, yeah. So I couldn’t understand why they kept on keeping at it to try and get us to go through it because in the end they realised then that they had to wipe it, it was a ridiculous thing.

No, no, no, I smashed my ankle on both sides

yeah in a football game it was a cup for the Comforts Fund, for the Comforts Fund this day it was and that’s what happened there so I was playing it at Hanson Park and I did and I was in Uralla and therefore I was convalescing over there and later on ended up over in Wilcot Forbes Home beautiful big home over at St. Ives, so I was back to St. Ives and I ended up as a convalescent over there. And on D Day, on the end of VP [Victory in the Pacific] Day when

the war finished I was in Uralla and I was on crutches. So therefore no leave today, no leave today, you weren’t going to go, and I said, “No, no, righto, no leave today”, so just got on, got dressed, got on my crutches, and I went into Strathfield walked into the hotel and I said, “Mate, give me a beer”, and he said, “Mate, it’s on me”, so I said, “Thanks very much”. And then I struggled off down into Marrickville, so there you are.

I celebrated with a few, not too many because I was on crutches, I was knocking the wall on a couple of factories as I walked past, you know, I remember that part, but yes why wouldn’t you. So then I went back to the hospital after that and from then I did all the convalescing you know after it, so yeah that was it.

Well then I said, “Righto then”

I’d recovered now. “We’ll send you over, we’ll send you to so and so”, I said “No, no you won’t. You won’t send me there at all. The rear party is still at Granville Showgrounds over at Clyde there. They’re still over there and I’ve got orders that I’ve got to go there. So therefore I’ve got to go to Clyde and join these blokes over there the rear party they’re waiting on me. So that’s where I’m going and my brothers still in the show there and all me mates. You know so fair go”.

And in the end, oh well I suppose natural thing you know oh let him go anywhere the wars over. So but I had to do a bit of talking which wasn’t hard as you can understand, so I talked a bit and anyhow I got back there and I went back up to New Guinea to Lae.

That was, lets see the war finished in August, so it would’ve been about October I suppose, something like that October, November, something like that when I went back and I went back on a

ship that took a few civilians back with it. The civilians were going back to New Guinea and there was only about thirty troops on it and I was on there, I’ve still got the menu there six course meal, oh this was great, I was on a cruise you know. It was fantastic and we pulled in at Moresby and went around the harbour with all the wrecks still there, all the boat wrecks were still there then, you know. So then we went down to Tai [?] around to

Samarai, which Jacquinot Bay was a beautiful place but this Samarai in a book I read “Gold Dust and Arrows” about early New Guinea about all the gold and all this sort of thing and it was in there and it said that Samarai was a paradise on earth and I’ll tell you when you went down there you could believe every word of it. It was one of the most beautiful spots you’d ever see on this earth it was.

‘Cause I’d never travelled much but to me, to any of us those days you know, but to be at Samarai it was beautiful. Then we called up in to Milne Bay which was a fantastic big bay, it was unbelievable the size of Milne Bay. Called in there and then up to Lae and that’s when I joined the boys at Lae there and they were working on the roads there and also looking after prisoners, prisoners of war and some Australian deserters they were in there as well

as prisoners, traitors they called them but anyhow they were there as well, getting out the metal (UNCLEAR) this sort of thing and making roads for Lae and all the people around there and doing jobs there, that’s what they were doing.

Well I was a driver so I had a jeep. I used to go and get the “New Guinea Gold” every morning for them to read, used to take them to their jobs, take them back, go and pick them up, bring them back. I had it tough then mate,

this was a tough war now I’m telling you and I used to go and pick them up and bring them back and that was my job. Lenny was in the kitchen with Wau Coffee, they were running the kitchen for us and of course we had plenty to eat and all this sort of thing now you know, oh it was a good holiday that part of it. But the reason I wanted to go back was I knew I wasn’t getting out of the army I said, “Well I can’t live here on five bob a week, I better go up there because I can’t spend any money and I’ll get a quid”. So that was one of the reasons I was prepared to go up there the last

time because I knew it was alright. Four of us were going to go to the occupational forces in Japan after the war. There was Woody, Cordy, someone else and myself, four of us, we said, “No, we’ll go to the occupational forces, we’re in it we’ve had it now we’ll do it a bit easier this way”, but then when you’re home and you’re seeing your family, Mum had had three strokes so it wouldn’t have been fair so I said, “Sorry boys, I can’t go”, so I

didn’t go, so they didn’t go, so we didn’t go.

Not long I thing I would have left there in about March, I reckon I was up there about six months or so, that’s about all I was up there and then I came home and I stayed and came back with the rear party and there I went, we came back on the Westralia into Sydney which was great because I never came into Sydney before it was always by train coming into Sydney

you know on the Westralia and then I went out to the 2nd Engineers Stores out at Leichhardt and I was there until the end of the war and that was, I went out to the showground and that was on the 8th of May, 1946 so I’d had six years in the army. Great experience, not going to knock it seeing I got out of it you

know and that sort of thing but very very fortunate man without a doubt, yeah. You have to stop and think back how fate turned around. How Mum wouldn’t let me go to the AIF at the start. And then I was at Glenfield, they wouldn’t accept me down there to go there, my mates went to Malaya, you know and all these sort of things, but fate had it, well that’s how I say it is, fate had it that I was supposed to get through

and survived which I did and I’ve got, still got my dog tags over there that I wore, me dead meat tickets and the Christopher Medal that my grandmother gave me. She said that Uncle Bill had it when he went to the Middle East in the first war so I had it in the second war. So everything worked out right for me one of the lucky blokes.

Well to make it you know, I could’ve been somewhere else even on that patrol we went on you know.

We didn’t know what was going to happen we were on patrol there you go around a corner and everything and you’re not sure. So they were about there’s no doubt about it, the Japs were about there, that sort of thing because I know one of the blokes there when I went back in 1984 took our fellas back in ’84, the bloke he was camped there during the war and everything, Tom Leager, I’ve got photos of us having dinner with him and the whole crew of them up there at the Lilo up there one night, Tom Leager and he was there and he was telling me all about he said,

“Oh, yeah they were still about there a lot of them”, he says and the natives were definitely on their side some of them and that and they worked out different ways of letting them know when to walk across, the Aussies to get across the river at Markham, and all that their patrol mobs and everything like this to let them know so the Japs wouldn’t see them and all this sort of thing they had signals and that sort of things to go. Because it was another fast running river, that one the Markham, a very big river, but it’s not so bad today, even like the Lakekamu today

they tell me its dry, there’s no river there now you know how things have changed yeah but.

Oh it could’ve been a bit of those two you know with it all and to be up there with those blokes and everything you felt safe with them blokes and if anything was going to happen you wouldn’t you know and all that they’re the blokes that you would’ve wanted to been anywhere

in it you know with them that thing, sad thing was when they sent Vince our officer back to Sydney before we left he left at Woppit. That was a very sad time for the unit there, for the sections had been with him all through the time and you know had admired the man they looked up to him so much. It was something you know that you can’t believe it can happen that sort of thing. That’s why they say today, why do you have Anzac Days? And why do you have this sort of thing?

And as it says in that poem that I often read at eulogies, it is because we’re thinking of our mates. And that’s how it is and you can’t get it out of your system, you know mates it always will be and I’m very happy you know that I got through it and all that and knowing all these fellas. I can go on and tell you the names of the blokes the day we went in together and the day that we came out practically together, you know went through so much together and that

sort of thing. But it’s unbelievable the stories I could, you can go on and on and on with it you know, you’d want a lot more time to get through the whole lot of it you know but still it gives you some some, the main part of the story of it and then you work things out yourself what you think so and so, so and so, he was lucky he didn’t pull the bullet and all that sort of thing. Well that wasn’t our job, our job was to get the equipment through for them blokes so as they would still have equipment there for them to

pull the bullet and this was at our job and this is why we had to stick with it and we did, we stuck with it.

I wasn’t sure because I liked it you know. I liked it but where I was at that time with other blokes out and I though oh yeah I’m right now and that might have been the only reasons I was still going to hang onto my mates you know but then I

think it could’ve been that then when I went back to work, when I went back to work then I was working at this Westbrook and Masons who were this ex first war bloke and the first day I got back there they come to me and they said, “Look if you feel like you want to go for a walk, go for a walk”, and I did quite often and so I stayed there for quite a while and it was very hard for them to get the skins to make the shoes, the high grade shoes and everything and all this sort of thing and I could see

things weren’t working properly and they wanted me to go down and become a clicker, to stand at the table cutting out the uppers all, all the time I said, “Oh I’m not ready for that sort of stuff, I’m not ready for it”, so I resigned, I got away from them.

Did it take?

Oh I’d say it did. Yeah, yeah it did because you know you’d feel like going and having a few beers with your mates and that sort of thing well alright. You met a girlfriend and all this, now what do I do here and what do I do that you know. You had to combine all different things but whenever the time came that you could be with your mates, well there was nothing better, you still, you know and that’s how it was. And there’d be an Engineers Ball well we’d all

go to the ball it would be great like that you know, Mark Foys or Grace Brothers or one of the other big places you know, we’d go to these balls and that and army reunion. Well on Anzac Day when we first started we had the, we didn’t have a reunion we used to meet down at the Usen Hotel, the Hobens, Lloydy’s people owned the Hotel and we’d meet there. Then later on oh well we’ve got to have a reunion see, so it started see. And the first one, I wasn’t at the first meeting because I had to go the pictures with

a girl see, so therefore I missed that and then they told me what was happening and I said, “Oh righto then, so they’re going to have a reunion”. So I said, “Righto then when’s the reunion?”

That would have been in 1947 I’d say, I’d say it would’ve been about ‘47 the first reunion, or late ‘46 or ‘47. So we had a reunion. Then I could see the blokes who were looking after it, I says, “Oh, yeah righto then”, but these blokes were involved in other things

I though now there going to be involved in that and to be involved in this I think, you know, I don’t think it’s going to work out. I think I can handle it myself and I want to make sure that they’re going to be kept together. I reckon this is my goal in life to keep them together see, so therefore I’m going to take over and be it. So we had another meeting I told them and we had it and I said “I want to stand for Secretary”, and he said “Oh righto then”, and my other mate said, “Yeah that’s

alright, that’s ok”, you know, so I became Secretary and that would’ve been in ‘49 or 1950, I reckon it would’ve be in ‘49 because I was married, yeah ‘49 would’ve been I took over Secretary and here it is I’m still Secretary and now the Treasurer, because the Treasurer. He only turned ninety last year, only ninety last year, I don’t know why he can’t carry it on you know but anyhow he did a great job.

But with it all I’ve done forming it all up they’ve made me you know a life member and that sort of thing with it and I’ve been running the show ever since and we’re having another Anzac Day reunion in April this year again too.

For me oh it’s been my second life.

Yeah after my family, alright I’ve played football, I’ve refereed football and all this sort of thing but no that is my second life without a doubt. Just family and then that and they will, my family and everyone else will tell you, that’s it and every time you know I get cards, birthday cards from different ones and all this sort of thing, even from Jimmy Lawrence the other day the bloke who was, our adjutant and captain

and later on became a major down in Melbourne, but anyhow even him he says you know, “Keep the good work going”, you know, he says, “You’re the 9th Field Company carry on”, and that’s it. I know it is, I’m not wrapping myself, but well if I’m not going to do it I’ve started it, I’ve got to finish it see, no one else can take over now because I’ve got the run of it and it’s so easy. I started off sending out about three hundred letters, now I send out about sixty you know that’s how it is.

But they still, if they are able to, they will, they will be there, I know that.

What I do now all I do now is the Anzac March. I write out the circular every year, send them that circular and it goes out to them every year. It gives them the names of the blokes that have passed away and any other news that I’ve got and I tell them all that

in the circular. And the reunion will be at so and so this year so and so. The march will start at so and so. See you all there right that’s it. Then at Christmas time I send out cards to the women of the departed fellas that you know are still involved in it all, that still want to hear. I send cards to them, each card I send I write a letter to give them the full rigmarole of everything you know and even our Sergeant Freddy Dicko a great bloke, his sister

well I even, she got involved you know knowing Vince Bonnet she knew him captain because she stayed there during the war, she was a telephonist up at the GPO [General Post Office] so she happened to know the Bonnet family. So I keep in touch with her, I write her letters, we write each letters and Christmas cards and Killer Lane his wife, another bloke who died with Alzheimer’s him, that we had a battle to get, but we beat them we got

with it. The whole thing in the end was that they rang up a professor in France who said a blow to the head could cause Alzheimer’s and we won it on that point because Conny Clarke a bloke I said who gave me the chocolate when I was at Bulldog well it was him who told me he was in Uralla just before he died and he told me it was him who clubbed Billy Lewis accidentally down at Wau with a pick

and down he went, picked him up threw him on the back of a truck and got him into Wau somehow and that sort of thing and that was his whole trouble started there, Billy Lewis and Conny told me and when she rang me about it and all this sort of thing I said, “I think I’ve got the answer”. And that was it we went to the tribunal and they fought against us they paid $75,000 for their man to fight the case. $75,000 of waste and we beat them.

But the man was that bad, he wasn’t going to live that long, why worry about it. But they said they were meant to have never have given to him so therefore I’d been to the people about it and everything and that and he said, “No we’ve never never done it and we won’t do it now”, and I think this is why they wanted to fight it they were frightened it could go on and on anyhow very fortunate we won the case, we beat them down there, and it was a tough time with them I’ll tell you. The barrister’s a very tired bloke sitting there and all this sort of

thing and that sort of thing and I’d think what a waste of money with our age and everything now what does it matter if your going to pay him another $50 a fortnight or something, it would be a lot cheaper. So that’s my argument about it.

It was the engineers song, yeah, on the yeah, “There’s the track leading back”.

Well I could try yeah,

I’ll give it to you yeah. Do you want the ear plugs? “Who are we? Who are we? Look us over and you’ll see. We are the boys of the RAE. All the ladies and the flappers, they really love the sappers, they like our company. Heart to heart, hand to hand

as we travel throughout the land we are the boys of the RAE. The Gengibees[?]”.

There you are. I forgot one line is, “We’ll always stick together”, but it doesn’t matter.

That’s it there’s another part of it.

No it didn’t but we’ve got to remember you know, we were a bit cranky about it, not that we wanted to be hero worship you know and that sort of thing, but it was a secret thing so it wasn’t allowed out see, it wasn’t allowed out and of course when it came out, it came out that was the end of it, the war was still going on. But the real story to get it there, it should have been published more I feel with all of them

they did so much of it. Like on Anzac Day we marched I write to them, the ABC [Australian Broadcasting Corporation] and I give them all my things about it you know the twins and the MIDs that we picked up, and all that we went through and cuttings out of the paper, I’ve been doing it for years, sometimes they say nothing, other times they say a little bit. And I think it’s not for me, this is for the unit for all the blokes, they have not, never ever been given the recognition of it and I still

think it’s because they did not belong to a division. If they had of belonged to the division the stories would’ve been going with all those news the journalised and everything around there relating it back to where 6th Division is, this company’s there and that ones there and there doing it you know. But when you’re in the core troops as they called them like that we were out away from the division and a secret thing and then when it came out and the war started to move on it just didn’t get it, we didn’t want it then but we’d

still like to be highlighted today. It was, I’ve got a photo of where it was a little bit of it was, in the War Memorial, that was some years ago. But now there is nothing there, nothing in the War Memorial about it. And as for the diaries, nothing there about it you know and that’s when we go and fight for it, there is nothing there about, the day books the only thing. There is one piece written in this, in the War Memorial, down at the war diary, the 9th Field Company,

“Sapper Burnell is not of good character”, so there you are. And that would have been written in 1942 before we went away, you know and I know the major who did it and everything, yeah. “Sapper Burnell is not of good character”. And you know what after the war when I was in a certain, working for a army mate in a business he had. I went there and I got work from this certain

person for the company, so he seen me as a different bloke then and later on he’d come to our reunions and it was different all together then you know it was just because Sapper Burnell stood up for himself a little bit, without argument just stood up for himself. But if there was orders to do anything, had to be done, he’d get in and do it. It was just some little silly things you know that go on in the army well they were the little things that used to upset me, like when I walked out on

the road at St. Ives one day to catch the, to get a lift into Sydney to get my glasses they were smashed to get them fixed up. There’s a car coming past and it’s got a flag on it so I wave him, and I says, “Lift mate, lift mate”, and I’m a soldier, didn’t pull up. Who do you think was sitting in the back of it? Billy Hughes, “The Little Digger”, they called him. I’ll tell you what, he didn’t get any Little Digger out of me after that, Billy Hughes there Anzac Days and that sort of thing. Yeah, I’d said, “Why wouldn’t you pull up for digger?” He can see

I only wanted a lift into Pymble or something and that but no he just went past. So I wiped Billy Hughes after that, not that I was a fan but anyhow you know that was one of the stories there at St. Ives yeah.

Oh I suppose with it I can’t see how wars are going to be avoided. They’ve been going on before start of time, they’ll go on to end of time, whenever that is, wars are going to happen, people are going to have to fight in them and I’d say alright then if you feel that inclined don’t be afraid to do it. It is a great experience, there’s no doubt about it, the mateship cannot be

found in civilian life there’s one thing about that. You’ll find it if you’re prepared to take it you know. If you’re prepared to stand up and take it well go for it, and I’d say that you’ll enjoy it but you’ve got to put the effort in to it and you, you would be right. And I don’t agree with wars, no way, I don’t agree with them but also but don’t think that your doing it unless its going, your countries going to be invaded, don’t think you’re doing it for country, you’re doing it

for this.