Australians at War Film Archive

Good afternoon Cathy.

Yes well I was born in Gunnedah as far as I know, and I may [(UNCLEAR)] and the other previous thing we had and I lived on a farm about five miles in those days out of Gunnedah and had a lovely life. Had cattle and sheep and everything, even pigs.

Turkeys, ducks, hens, roosters, all that sort of stuff you know that you have in the country and it was a lovely life and then my father who in those days- do you mind if I say things like this? Sort of comes into it a bit. My father didn't hold the purse strings if you know what I mean – my grandfather did. He was quite a wealthy man – had a few properties

and my father and his brother worked for my grandfather and we were on one of his farms and they went in for tobacco growing which was all the thing back around late 1920s I think it was, 1928 or ’30. And they brought these tobacco plants and they got rust on them and

that was a wipe out so.

Fairly big – I can't remember. Probably went for three or four miles with different boundaries you know surrounding our little farm. Ours was the smallest. Grandfather had a lovely home and a lovely everything and he was one of the first men in Gunnedah to have a car. It was an old T Ford. Have you heard of those?

And we were Catholics and of course we used to go to every Sunday. We always drove in a Sulky and then grandfather bought a car for my Dad and then we had a car. So we were a little bit better off then and used to go into the Catholic Church every Sunday and so on with the schooling when we went to school we used to drive a Sulky,

Sulky and horse and that was pretty rough at times. Especially going out to collect the horse to get in back into the farm, or I call it an overnight, a yard that they held the little mare in. And that was a nasty job – especially if it was raining and cold. But we got over that – it was all fun as far as we were concerned.

There were five in our family – one boy and four girls. Poor man. So we had a really good childhood. I think it was anyway.

We did. They were about three, you’d call them kilometres now, we used to call them miles in those days. About a mile away from us

and they were on their own because they had a family of three; my father, his brother and the sister and they were in the town and we were in the bush and Grandfather and Grandma were in the bush also. Yes they were Irish folk

and my grandfather was very friendly with the local priest, Father Keane. He was an Irishman and he used to come out to see my grandfather and grandma. I’ll always remember that when Father Keane came the chicken and everything was cooked for the big meal and the pudding and everything but we weren't allowed to be there. ‘Cause mind you in those days we were seen and not heard you know. Because we were

mostly my family and my cousins and a lot of friends of ours, we were all very self conscious because we really didn't know how to speak to people – especially grown ups. We just sort of had to sort of be with the kids all the time you know? Sent out of the room if there was conversation going on so you young ones don’t know how lucky you are really. But we didn't realise that at the time so it didn't really matter I guess.

So yes, about my grandfather and grandma, they had hotels before… He was one of these men evidently that sort of had to go into different ventures. He was into hotels and also came down to the city but I wouldn't know what part of their life that was – it must have been when my father was a young man I think. Because my Dad went to

St. Joseph’s College, to boarding school, he and his brother and they hated it and they cleared out a few times back home like a lot of them did in those days but they actually they came from, oh, you wouldn't I think. Do you know Manilla at all in New South Wales? No. A bit of a place called Near Mexico but I think that was the name of their property. But they had a wonderful life – my fathers used to tell us about the townsfolk coming out to his place

about ten miles out of town and they’d come for the weekend and they’d have tennis and dances at night and they’d have a great old time. So that’s the sort of life they had. But then by the time I was old enough to take much interest in it all they had lost their money so it was back to being just ordinary again.

It was mostly through this tobacco plant that went rusty. They went to Penrith which was about 48 miles from Gunnedah. I remember my father going there and staying overnight – about two or three nights - and they did this big deal with the tobacco plants and they all looked lovely. I can remember going over there to my grandfather’s place and seeing all these lovely plants and the next thing it was all

downhill. But when you're a child you don't take too much notice of that – its really only since my daughter’s doing the family tree that all these memories have been coming back. You don't take much notice when you're young and free do you?

Well, I can remember it being very hot in the summer, terribly cold in the winter and then when I say my grandfather lost his money – we went to town then. My father had to evidently get another type of job and I think he bought – my grandfather must have still had a little bit of money – he bought a butcher’s shop in the town then and my father was a butcher so he tried his hand…

first of all he was in the hotel after he left school, first of all he was a – what do they call them behind the bar? A bartender I suppose, he and his brother. And then he became a butcher, what else? He was an alderman on the council and my grandfather was an alderman also. I think he stood for Mayor a couple of times but he didn't get in or something like that and I can remember

a great lot of, when we were going to school after we left the country and came into the township itself, there was a great bit of to-ing and fro-ing between the aldermen. Trying to win the big prize – to become the alderman of the year and there was quite a fight going on at one stage I believe between my father and this man. Mr Pritchard I think his name was. But later on… First of all we went to the St.

Xavier School, the Catholic school. There were two big schools there; one was St Mary’s – that’s where you went after you left school – but I didn't after you left primary I should say. But I didn't go on, because I had to go and get a job so I went into a – what do they call it now? Well, we served meals and things. Restaurant I suppose you’d call it today – it wasn't a very big one but

I was a waitress there. Didn't like it very much because I could never remember what I had to get so I think I was a bit of a no-hoper in that regard but I stayed there I think for a couple of years. And then we [(UNCLEAR)] the hockey club. We had a hockey club for the church which was very good. We were three sisters, no two sisters played.

And myself – three of us altogether and two cousins so there were five of us cousins and the rest of us were all friends that we went to school with but we had a great old time. We used to go to all the local towns and play them. Into Tamworth and Werris Creek and a lot of surrounding places. But I was one of the younger ones – I was only I think about 15 then. So I…

14. Oh no I was younger – younger than 14. Yes I was in 6 class you see and then you went over to St Mary’s when you were I think 12 or 13 I don't know but I have a recollection that I think I was 6 when I started school because I can remember the first day. I’m 83 and I can remember the first day at school. And I loved it – it was lovely. I guess coming from the country and

having all the kids to play with it was good. Because we only had ourselves sort of, the family to play with. And the neighbouring, there was one boy that used to come over and play with us after school and he was one of these big sooky kids. I shouldn't say that should I? Nice boy. And even us girls we used to take him down through the marbles we were so good he’d go home without any marbles. We were dreadful, really

dreadful kids. But anyway, we did improve I hope later on.

We only went to 6th Class you see and then it was to the higher one and I had to leave because my father and Mum needed the money.

My two older sisters as well, they left too. Or they had gone long before me so it would have been 12 I suppose. Something like that. I must sit down and work it out one day. My daughters bound to ask me sooner or later. She’s on to all this.

I don't know, I just went along with it I guess. I always wanted to do office work though.

I don't know why and I could’ve gone to St Mary’s – that’s the higher school I was talking about – but we didn't have the money to pay for the bookkeeping and typing lessons but I did do that once I come to the city so that was alright. Everything was ok but before that that was quite out of the question altogether.

But no it was a good life, but of course we didn't know any other you see so we didn't really know the other side of things. But I always remember I loved dancing but I was too young to go along with the rets of them and my sister and my brother, he was my twin – that’s what used to annoy me most - he was allowed to go but I wasn't. Very strict, my Mum and Dad were very strict. We had to be home, if we went to a ball we had to be home by 12. Otherwise Dad would be down the street to see

where we were. Young ones don't know how lucky they are, do they? So of course this was all before the war and then once the war broke out I left my job at the restaurant then and…. Some friends of ours, he worked for – you young

people wouldn't know but it was called earth moving equipment like the harvesters, the ploughs, all those things. Well he worked for a firm called Wall and Josephson’s, I don't think they’re in business these days. Probably by a different name. And low and behold they came into town and lived right opposite us. Well, he used to come out to our place to sell Dad ploughs and things that he needed for the land you see. So and then I used

to baby sit for their children because they were a lovely family and then war broke out and they wrote to me, sorry, they came down to Sydney – he came to a better job. He was a salesman in those days but he got a better job with Wall and Joseph’s and they came down to live at Bondi. And I wrote and told them I was coming – I wanted to get away from Gunnedah and the war had started and I wanted to so something else so they said ‘Come

down to us’ and they were living in Bondi so I went down there and I stayed with them for about a year and I must have been 21 then. Of course in those days you didn't have parties – in fact my father told me he didn't even get a present mind you. A 21st birthday present. Oh dear, anyway.

In Gunnedah. That’s in the town itself. Yes.

This is where I’m forgetting. The Depression was on when we were still out in the country and I can remember we had before we went to school we had to milk the cows and make

cream into butter and then we had to take it into town on our way to school. We’d go to our aunties whose husband lost his job in the, I think he used to work on the, they called them linesman in those days, with the telephone lines. I think they called them linesmen. And we used to take them butter and my father used to kill the sheep or a bullock or something like this every week we’d have something like a sheep one week

I think and then beef the next fortnight or month or something. It would last a long time so we used to take meat into them, butter, poultry, eggs, and things that we grew in the farm itself so that was all a part of our job. We did work hard, we had to work hard. In the holiday time when harvesting came around - and we were still at school then -

and my sister and I – we used to ride horses and take a billy can on one side and tea on the other side. Morning tea and afternoon tea for the men working on the property. And why we did it [(UNCLEAR)], I thought it was fun. That was only in the school holidays of course, I don't know what they did when we weren't there. And we used to also, school holidays, come Christmas time we

used to sew bags with you know, the wheat and everything? We used to have to sew them up with a big old needle about that long. It had a big eye and you’d put string through it and you’d sew the bags up. That was a hard job too on the poor old hands. No wonder I’ve got bad hands today. But that was all a part of it, part of being there. And we used to have sheep and we used to, my sister and I used to bring home the little babies that

couldn't keep up, the baby lambs that couldn't keep up with the mothers because if they went down hawks would get them. You know the birds? Pick their eyes out and all this sort of thing so we used to bring them home to our place and we used to have a beer bottle or one of those old soft drink bottles and we’d put a dummy on the end of it like a teat and we’d feed them and then we used to fatten them up and

they’d be alright to go out on the road again and then some of them we kept and we sold them We used to make a bit of money out of it too. They were worth quite a few bob [shillings] in those days. The farmers living off the sheep so that was another job we all had to do. We used to bring little birds home that were injured and put splints on them, splints on their wings with a little piece of rag or material

and we’d get them on the road to recovery and off they’d go again. We never saw them again of course. It was good fun.

Yeah you do hear that but that didn't apply to us for some reason or another because I can honestly say, I often talked to my husband who went to a public school and he tells me that he always had shoes.

His father was a postman so I suppose he still had a job but he said most of the kids didn't have shoes to wear to school and he used to hide his shoes after he left home so his mother couldn't see him and he used to plant them somewhere and go to school without shoes. So yeah, there was a lot of that. Especially in the town, that’s where the trouble was. The people in the bush weren't so badly off because they

basically all had what I told you – the sheep, cattle, milk. So they really, we always had plenty of food if you know what I mean. But as far as the cash was concerned, that was a problem I suppose.

Oh yes. All the time. They were coming knocking on our door. Mum used to go round the back with them and take them out some lunch or something and give them bread and butter and drinks too probably. All that sort of thing, yeah they were coming every day just about. And you’d see them with a bridge going into the township from where we were, a river, and this big bridge and there used to be men

I suppose twenty or thirty men you’d see carrying their - whatever they carried over their shoulders. Bags or I’ve forgotten what they call the now. You probably know yourself.

Yeah. It was a sugar bag mostly and all their belongings they had in those bags – poor old things. Some of them had tents but not too many had. I think they just sort of under the bridge. I don't know what happened when the water came up and

flooded. I suppose they all had to get out and go somewhere else then. But they used to go from town to town I believe. They used to tell us that some places were better than others. The people probably gave them more in some towns and not so much in the others. But of course to come out to the country where we were was a fair old way for them to have to walk. Shoes, they wouldn't have soles on their shoes. They

used to put paper in them I believe. It was pretty tough. Because of my age I guess I was sort of spared a lot of that. I didn't realise it you know? So as far as I’m concerned it didn't really hit us. I guess we were pretty lucky there.

Yeah, just loved dancing. It wasn't allowed, [(UNCLEAR)] school then, some things for the Catholic Church, the walls things like that you know? But nothing else. My sister and my brother they used to go everywhere. Don't ask me how they went. Cars must have become quite plentiful later on when I’m thinking, about then. That must have been

between school time and the time I left Gunnedah. As far as I can remember it sort of flown you know. It went so quickly and then I came down to the city.

Dressed ourselves. That’s all really. Oh no, we had to give Mum a fair bit. I don't know I think we were only getting about two pound which would be what? Four dollars. That’d be right wouldn't it? Yeah, about two pound I think. Yes it would have been around about two pound. It wasn't much really. I probably gave Mum a pound, maybe more and probably kept ten bob or something for myself to dress myself and buy my cosmetics and

all that sort of thing. As for shampoo, well we didn't have much of that I can tell you. No, we had… Shampoos weren't even around I don't think. We used to wash our hair with Palmolive soap. You remember that? Yeah, soap for years and years. Even in the war years I don't think… The only time you got the shampoo was if you could afford to go to the hairdressers. It wasn't very expensive but if you didn't have enough money it was.

I’d forgotten about shampoo and those sorts of things. So that was, a lot of things came in after the war. Things changed.

Yes. I can always remember going to a… It was called,

it was St Patrick’s night. St Patrick’s ball it was always called – for some reason or another that was a good ball. I think it was because it was March and it wasn't that cold so the country boys came into town and that’s what the girls were looking for so that’s how we met a lot of them. But never ever didn't really have what you’d call a steady boyfriend.

Just used to like different ones to dance with and they’d always come over and ask you to dance and you never sat a dance out or anything like that. Once you could dance well. My sister was a good dancer and was my brother. At least he did teach me how to dance. That was something he did for me. Yeah that was a great time then because we used to wear lovely long evening gowns, you know the long ball room dresses

with stoles around our neck and we used to think we were just Christmas.

Jazz, old time. I think old time new vogue came in about that time. You wouldn't even know that would you? Old time new vogue. That was all the go then too. There was a lot of these dance but I would have loved to have been back in my Mum and Dad’s days. They used to tell us about the

what was it called? Am I shaking my head too much? It was called the Sense but that’s all I can remember and there were about eight people. You often see them in some of these American films now. Where they’re all doing this lovely dance and changing from side to side and all that sort of thing. Well that’s what my Mum and Dad used to do and they just loved that and I would have loved that too but

it was out by the time I got to that stage so we didn't do it. But we went to hockey dances too. We used to go to different places to play hockey and then we’d go to a social that night. They called them socials, we’d go to a social say in Tamworth. Tamworth was the big place to go. It was like a city as far as we were concerned and Gunnedah was quite tiny compared to Tamworth. They had beautiful shops and

there seemed to be so many lights, beautiful lights at night and al this but we didn't have that in Gunnedah. Don’t ask me why. I think it became a city actually. Yes it did so I guess that’s why. It was probably the leading country town I should imagine. It was very bright and I remember Mum and Dad taking us over there to the races when I was probably round about ten I think, I thought I was just it. Lovely day

was had. We had cousins over there too – my Mum’s brother lived there and they were beautiful looking women and they owned a shop called ‘Regan’s’ and they both worked there and we went there to stay and I saw my cousins for the first time and I couldn't get over how beautiful they were. Lovely tall, dark girls – really lovely. As far as my childhood was concerned I had a very, always tell everybody we had a very happy childhood even though there

were five of us and plenty of mouths to fill and all that but we didn't, we had to wear each others clothes for years and years and that was a bugbear as far as I was concerned. I hated that. My sisters hand-me-downs and my younger sister of course I handed them down to her and she didn't like it either because she was the last one to wear some dresses. And then we’d get them from my cousins and friends of ours would give

us some and all this sort of thing. We didn't like that and we became – or I did anyway – I can’t answer for my elder sister but I became very self conscious and I was a very shy type of child so I’ve improved over the years. But when I was young – and I sort of had this feeling – we were only talking about it the other day my sisters and I – and we feel that it was because

my grandfather lost his money and we sort of were used to everything and then it was sort of a come down not to have it and not to have money and all this sort of thing later on. So and then when we went to work – my sisters worked in shops; a drapery shop one was in and a shoe shop and there weren't many shops in Gunnedah of course, but I stayed at my little

job for a few years and then I went to another one later. I’d just forgotten about that but I got sick of that one so that’s all I did when I was growing up when I got to. Well, I started when I was – when did I say? Twelve wasn't it? I couldn't have been twelve. I must have just stayed at home. Yes, I think I did. Oh that’s right, because I wasn't well I grew up with a bad back and I

missed a lot of school and that was probably Mum and Dad that didn't want to push me or something. I had that feeling there but Mum never talked about it so you sort of probably erase it from your memory and you don't think about it very much. That’s all I can think now as I’m older. I often ask my older sisters about it and they say ‘Oh yeah, but you were always sick’. So I guess there was something like that.

So we grew up to be very self conscious and had not much confidence at all as we were growing up, as we got older.

Mm. That’s it. Yes, exactly I’d say. Yes that’s the word. And I

think my Mum was like that and she probably unknowingly passed it down to us girls 'cause we three of us, four of us rather when we all get together, we all say the same thing. Mum made us like that but as you say probably the shame of that probably it would pass down to you wouldn't it. In a sort of fashion I guess. So

anyhow, that’s what I was.

That was another thing I didn't like too.

we didn't have them then. No way. No we got out of that. Got out of that rut you might say. Yes that was good. It was lovely to go and buy your shoes and things like that. Because when we were in the country

you know the catalogues they send around today? Well, they were the big thing. We used to send away for our shoes and to get two pairs of shoes probably a year, maybe one pair. It was wonderful – we’d spend hours browsing through this catalogue to see what we were going to buy and then Mum would give us the money and we’d send away for it. Money order if I remember. It was all money orders in those days. And then

the shoes would come a couple of weeks later. That was a great day when the shoes came back – that’s when we lived in the country but of course when we went to town we didn't have to worry about that. We went to the shops and bought them ourselves then.

No. Other people did and our cousins used to go but we didn't, no, never went for a holiday. I can remember coming down with… Am I alright doing this? Other people did but we never did, no.

I’d never been to Sydney. I came down with my Mum I think when I was about 11 or 12, no I hadn’t left school then. I would have been about 10 and we knew some friends down here and they lived at Redfern and they had a lovely old boarding house. Redfern was quite nice in those days believe it or not. It's before the rough set in, I don't know when that year would’ve been. Somewhere about the war years I guess but it was Redfern Street, no Pitt Street,

Redfern and that was a two storey, or maybe three storey I think because it was very big boarding house and Mrs Dunn was a friend of my Mum and Dad’s. I think they somehow or other – what was the story there? Yes they used to do all sorts of things. Mum and Dad gave them a room when we were growing up in the town. Their name was Turner – Mr and Mrs Turner – and

it was her mother that ran this boarding house in the city. But going back to that – my father then I told you he was also in – he went to do boring. Have you ever heard of that at all? Boring – it consists of, what they do is they go round with a big lot of stick wire or something and they look for… water divining it's called.

Divining I should say. I’m starting to get a bit hoarse. And Mr Turner evidently, he was one of those men that came looking for work and Dad gave him a job with him on the bore. They used to divine for water and then it would be a bore then that they’d go down.

A lot of feet or something, I don't quite understand it myself, but that’s what he was then – a boring contractor. So there's quite a few jobs there isn’t there but nothing you might say earth while.

Nothing much at all. No, my father didn't go to the war and I didn't really have any connection with anybody else either. None of our cousins

went. Maybe it was because they were on the land – I don't know. But you know when you see there stories today where all the young people from the country were going I don't think that was quite true. They may be a few but most of them had to stay at home. I think to help on the land and so I guess that’s what my father did. 1914 wasn't it? Maybe he was still at school. Anyway, he didn't go to war

I know that. Neither did his brother so maybe they were in one of those pubs I was telling you about. So my Dad really didn't have what you’d call a straight out job. It was always something not lasting and I guess in a way that would have given us a certain amount of shame perhaps. I don't know, perhaps when

you’re growing up you do. At my age I wouldn't even think about it. I think I’d be as good as the next person but I think when you’re young you have all these thoughts don't you? That you may not be as good as they are or something like this. Which is quite silly. So let’s hope that’s all gone by the wayside now.

Lovely man. That’s why I had such a great childhood. My father was wonderful. He was the one that, my mother wasn’t a very well person. My Dad was the one that, I always seemed to have an earache. Always my father there

bringing me a hot water bottle or something warm to put on my ear or a toothache or one of those things. He was a darling, lovely man. Everyone loved my father. What else can I say about him?

Yes. He was strict. We used to get beltings. My word we did. Even me, I was belted, round the legs

and my backside. I always complained ‘cause my brother, we were twins, he used to make trouble and I’d get the belting and he’d be on the sideline laughing. What do you think about that? That’s not very fair. My father didn’t see it that way. He had his own reasons for it all.

When you get older you think about things and start feeling sorry for yourself over nothing. He was marvellous really. A wonderful man. Everyone loved him, even my husband thought he was just great.

So many things. We used to fight like cats and dogs. We all

did, the lot of us. Mum said we were terrible kids. What would we fight about? Probably silly things when you think about it today. There was a great lot of competition between us. Who could be the best rider of a horse, who’d go over the highest fence, and all these silly things. My brother was always the winner. He could ride much

better than we could. He was Ned Kelly and we weren’t as keen as he was. A lot of the things were what we had to do were our jobs was another reason we used to fight with one another. Thought we had too much work to do. The other thought she had more work to do. That type of thing.

That was mostly it. Mostly little arguments that become fights in the long run.

You wouldn’t know what that was, but normally my younger sister and I, we used to have to pick up chips, the little pieces, about that big, that came off the logs of wood. That’s what you started your

fire with. Started it with a bit of pine. Then you had your chips on top of that to start your fires. We had a fire in just about every room to keep warm in the wintertime. So there was a lot of pick me up chips to be had. That was a hate job. We used to bring them in in a box or a bag, not too sure about that now, and have to fill that bag

up. So much had to be put in that one. That was an afternoon job when we got home from school. We wanted to play, but you weren’t allowed to play unless we had done our afternoon jobs. First thing we did when we got in was let go of the horse, saddle him or her, whatever it was, harness I should say, and give it a drink and food.

Mostly my brother did that. Then us girls we had to change and have afternoon tea and go about our jobs again. Getting this wooden stuff in for the night. This was in the wintertime. We had fuel stones.

They were like, have you ever seen a photo of one?

Probably about that wide and the same depth. You had little holes on the top where you put your kettle on one, another one for your saucepan. That’s like things today, only that it was made of iron, the stoves were. You had a cap on top of them. After you lit the fire underneath them you put the caps back on

again and that’s what you sat the saucepans on and your kettle. In the wintertime at our place the kettle was on all day long. It was either for workmen for cups of tea, I told you we used ti take them up, and a boiler of probably soup going every day from about 7 o'clock in the morning until lunch time for the soup for lunch for the

men. They were great, ‘cause they were warm. You got a lot of warmth. Everyone used to come in the kitchen and stand around the stove. That was a great place. Like the kitchen is today more or less, probably where it all started. That was most of your talking was done over the stove you might say. Mum always used to be over the stove cooking or doing something like that.

I didn’t get into the cooking until I got married because I had two older sisters and they did the cooking. We had these other awful jobs to do like getting the wood in and things like that to make this fuel fire go for the whole day and night. What was another job? Collecting eggs in the afternoon, that was another job. We had lots of chucks. We had a chuck

yard out the back with a dozen hens and two or three roosters, something like that. That was a job, getting the eggs. We didn’t mind that though. For some reason or other we loved it I think. It was a good job. You had to be careful you didn’t break them. You know how frail eggs are. We did get into a bit of trouble about that I must

say. We’d quite often drop them because we were careless. So we got into trouble for that. That was another thing, being careless. You couldn’t be careless, it was important. You had to come to a point where you were good enough to go out and pick up the eggs and if you did something wrong you got into trouble for that too. That was only to make you more careful.

We did have a very nice little house to start with. I can remember it was new. I can still remember today the lovely smell of the new timber. It was lovely. It was burnt down. I know we’d gone out

and came home. I was only quite young. I can remember seeing this big blaze. It was the house burning. We had a lovely piano and that burnt and quite a lot of stuff. We did have gramophones. We called them gramophones in those days. What do they call it today?

Yeah. They were gramophones that we used to play. What was the question.

That was a terrible experience.

We lost probably all our clothing. Probably only had the clothing we had on that night. I was quite young then, so I wouldn’t remember. Then we went to another house that wasn’t nearly as good. That was probably another reason for feeling shameful as Katherine [interviewer] said.

No we went to another house. My grandfather must have owned that too. Not as good as this little place was. It was pretty awful really. It wasn’t very big.

Probably about

8 or 9 because I was 6 when we went to school and we were in the nice little house. I’ve forgotten how many years that would have been. Probably 4 or 5 years. Then I say we went to this other one that we didn’t like. We hated it. That was another reason for being self conscious or lack of confidence

or whatever you like to call it. It had a veranda around the back. We used to sleep out there because it was too hot inside. That was another thing, you probably heard of mosquito nets? We used to sleep outside under the stars and we had these mosquito nets over all your beds. That’s the only thing that kept the mosquitoes

away. They were really bad outside, but you couldn’t sleep inside because, I remember now it was a tin roof on the house and that was why I suppose it was so hot inside. That’s why we couldn’t sleep. This was summer time of course. We all must have looked very funny outside with all the mosquito nets up and all the beds out there.

Didn't like anything

about it. I didn’t do much better, as it happened, later on either. When I first started, I think my cousins in town had a nice home. That was another thing for getting a knock back or feeling ashamed or something like that. It wasn’t very nice.

We

went into the town then. That was all right. We must have been paying rent. We rented a house. That’s probably why I had to go out and get a job to give Mum and Dad enough money to. I’ve forgotten what Dad was doing at that stage. He’s had quite a few things. Yes, he had a big truck. That would have cost a bit of money. You know how dear

they are. They go into the thousands today, don’t they? I guess we must still have had a bit of money. He had a big truck and he used to carry wheat and all this sort of thing on the back. He was on the other side of the land then, when he got into town. He was carting the wheat and doing all this sort of thing. My brother helped him. So he left school early too, my twin brother.

He would be helping my father then and he also used to do droving. Droving was a big thing in those days. Lots of men from the town used to go out droving. Is that of any interest or not?

Every second man, I think, in the Depression were out on the roads droving. They used to go away for weeks and weeks. Take

cattle and sheep maybe on the gisement, what they used to rent, a paddock or something like that called a gisement. I don’t think my father did that though. No, he didn’t do that. He got a truck and they used to cart wood as well as the wheat in the summer time. Wood in the wintertime. Used to take wood around to various people in the

town. I think that’s about all I can remember about my father being in the country. Then they came to the city too, like I did, later.

Nothing I don’t think. I don’t think it meant anything at all. You went with the flow as they say today.

I don’t think it meant too much at all. We just did it. Had to be done and we just went along with it. I think we were pleased to be getting away from the country. I think I liked going into the town better than living in the country.

Changed for the better in town. I guess I was getting older and

interested in different things then. I was a teenager. Yes, I’d say it got better then. We didn’t have to work as hard. We didn’t have all these after school jobs and before school and all this sort of thing that we had to do. You couldn’t lie in in the mornings and do all that. Only holiday time you could have a lying in. Even then we didn’t have much of a lie in because we had

lots to do as well. So I think going into town was quite a hoot really. And having a bit of money. Having money in your pocket makes a difference too. I’d say that was for the best. Not for my Mum and Dad it wouldn’t have been.

She was very good too, but she wasn’t, I shouldn’t say that she wasn’t, she was good. It was all my father because he did all these little things for us that Mum wasn’t doing.

He was that sort of chap that wanted to do it. I don't know. Or whether because she wasn’t well enough he used to get up at night to save her. I think that’s what it was.

I think mostly change of life was the big thing with her. It’s so easy these days, but back in those days they didn’t have the things we have today. I went through it like no one’s business, but Mum

always seemed to be. She must have had something else going. I think she should have had a hysterectomy and didn’t. I think that’s the whole clue to it all. She did suffer with arthritis and things like that. She didn’t have heart trouble until later on in life. She was OK, but it was Dad who was the favourite.

Mostly my back problems. That was the main thing. My sisters used to say I was putting it on. I don’t think so.

I’d just go down in a hoot. I just couldn’t go to school. Had to lie around all day or sit around. That probably made me self conscious too.

I think I was more self conscious than my sisters were, or than my younger sister is too. She wasn’t sick so it might have been that. To get back to the fires, we used to have the open fire then. We’d have that going through the night. I can remember Dad and this boy I’m telling you about that we used to take him down for his marbles, we used to win then from him,

we were pretty good at it, he wasn’t that good. We had my brother to tutor us. His Dad used to come over to listen to the cricket at night. Going back long before Albert Gilbert who did it in those days. They used to stay up all night listening to the cricket so they had the fire going. It was always in the wintertime cause it was summer in England or wherever.

The fires went all night. This was another reason for so much wood having to come in of a wintertime. That wasn’t of course every week. That was only when the test matches were on. They were wonderful, the open fires.

Everything. Great sense. We didn’t have anything else. Going back to my grandfather, he had this beautiful

“His Master’s Voice” was one that you’ve seen today with a mouthpiece and a dog or something sitting on top. He had one before us of course. We had to wait a few years before we got a little cheap one and then we progressed a bit further and we had this good old radio that we listened to all the time. I’m still a radio person. I’m not a television person. I love radio.

“Blue Hills”, no that was before that. “Dad & Dave” that was all the go. It was only on once a week if I remember. We loved that. That was something that even Dad used to try and get all his jobs done outside so he could get in to listen to “Dad & Dave”. I think it was on at 7 o'clock at night or something like that. That was one.

Later on, as we became teenagers, we loved the hit programs. Have you heard of Dick Bear and Alan Toohey? They were great radiomen back in my young days. They used to have a hit program. I don't know what the kids call it today. That was good. They played Bing Crosby and all those sorts of things. I can remember my father saying “what are you listening to that rubbish for?” This

was Bing Crosby who we just all adored. We finally got him around to liking Bing Crosby, but he was into Peter Dawson and all those. John McCormick, John, the other Johns, you know them. I don’t have to tell you that. They had beautiful voices. That was the records we used to listen to. Mostly Peter Dawson and John

or Jack. Later on we had the Lux programs and Palmolive programs. That was later as we became teenagers that we had all that stuff.

Played cards just about every night. We had what

they called something Balls, soccer probably. Something Balls.

You had a little thing with holes in it. You had a stick in your hand. There was a ball in front of the holes. You had another ball and you had to put that ball in the hole.

Something Balls I can think of that we used to hold the stick like you do for playing Billiards. That was a popular one. Cards. We played Duke, Crib, 500, I think it’s called Canasta today.

That’s mostly all. Then we had, as we became teenagers, the open air picture show in Gunnedah. That was a favourite, going to the open air pictures. We used to go once a week, Friday night when we were in town. We loved that cause we hadn't seen many

shows when we were out in the country. We loved everything we saw. You’ve heard of Buck Jones and all those sort of people? We used to love to see them on the screen. Then they’d have a serial going from one week to the other. You’d have to go back the next Friday and see the result of last week. They left you hanging on the end of a something pretty bad.

There might be a train coming and he’s standing in front of the train and you’d have to go back next week to see what happened. So pictures was a great thing in our life.

It was a big, white screen. Huge really. Just had seats all around. Lots of people went to the open air pictures. People that you wouldn’t think would go to the pictures, they used to turn out. That was only in the summertime.

We didn’t go to the old, I can't remember much about the town hall where we used to watch the big film.

Very close, but religions played their part. The Catholics were in one mob, the Church of England in another and the Methodists. They all had their own

religions. We all came together for big occasions. Christmas time was a great occasion. You loved to go down the streets. In those days the shops were open on a Friday night. That was the big day. I think it’s Saturday now in the country, they tell me. It was Friday for us. If we were lucky we might get to stay in town overnight so we could go down the

street on Friday night and we’d go home the next day. We’d stay with my aunt or something. That was a big treat too, just going down the street at night.

That was very exciting. My father belonged to a couple of lodges and they had Christmas trees. We were always go to the father’s Christmas trees at the lodge. So we used to go to two on that and then we had one for the Catholic Church

and that’s another big occasion. I think that would have been in Christmas Eve itself, the church one. The other two would have been previous to Christmas. Leading up to it. Another part of Gunnedah was the cordial factory was a great attraction. We used to go there once a year with Dad. We’d all put on our best, go into town to

Johnny Cox’s Cordial Factory and he used to shout us a drink. It sounds so frivolous today, just to get a cold drink for nothing. My father probably paid him, I don't know, but we thought it was for nothing. We thought this was great. We all wanted to go to Johnny Cox’s and have a cold drink of lemonade. Maybe it was that red drink creaming soda I think it was.

We thought that was wonderful. That was when we were in the whistler. That was quite an occasion. We all got dressed up in our best clothing and went to Johnny Cox’s. Dad probably had beer around the back with Johnny Cox himself.

We used to have a big Scottish dance, Highland Fling they called it I think. They came from everywhere

to dance. I think it was called the Highland Fling, something like that. Or Scottish dance it may be called now if they still have it. One of my cousins from Tamworth used to dance and that’s why we were interested because we used to go to watch her dance when they did all those things they did in the Scottish dancing. That was nice. Another thing they had was bicycle riding. That was a big thing too in our day.

They had races probably once or twice a year. Probably 2 or 3 times a year. They had some very good riders. They used to go to Tamworth, all the places, like we used to do with our hocky. That was a big part of going to other towns to do things like that too.

Used to go to Tamworth

a bit. Rose Creek was another favourite place because the train to Rose Creek used to run through Gunnedah. It was only about 30-40 miles I think. We used to go to a dance that night. I suppose when I was younger I had to sit down. I think I was quite young when I first joined the hockey club, but that was mostly what they did. Went to a dance on the Saturday night

and someone billeted us for the night. That was the thing. Everyone was billeted out. You’d go to different people. Probably I played the half in the team. My sisters, one was a wing, she went to the wing house and so on. So that’s what we did there. We used to travel a lot too then by truck. Lorry we used to call it. It had a

tarpaulin over it. Some people call them tarpaulin or tarpaulin, they were a glorified tent went over the top and we used to travel to a lot of places. We used to go to Tamworth; the train didn’t stop there, so we went by truck. That wasn’t too comfy I can tell you.

It was a very bright place.

Was always well lit up at night time. Very bright. I don't know why. It became a city long before Gunnedah did. There always seemed to be something on there. They used to have the races and all these big dances. Seemed to be the local pulling from the north and northwest, Tamworth was. We went to races there with Mum and Dad.

That must have been in the good days when they could afford it.

We had post office people and shop people, office people in all the shops. The farmers, there were probably a lot of Scottish people out on the farms too.

Although I can’t recall any at this moment. There must have been in the town. Banks were a big thing. ‘Bank Johnnies’ seemed to be the big thing in those days. They seemed to come from everywhere for most the girls. Had I been older I may have married a ‘Bank Johnny’. Tellers were

called ‘Bank Johnnies’ in those days. They used to stay in the guest houses. That’s where a lot of people made their money, the guest houses. They probably had up to about 7 or 8 ‘Bank Johnnies’ staying at one time at a particular boarding house. That was a big thing in Gunnedah, the boarding house.

Not very important to me when I was growing up. More so now. I don’t think it was terribly

important. If you’re talking about the King and Queen, that was. Yes. I think we grew up with the idea that the princesses had these beautiful things on their heads and we thought it was a different life than what it is in reality. We were very into those, the Queen today and her sister growing up. That was

quite big, but nothing heavy in my time, the British Empire. It didn’t seem to mean too much to me. I must have been a giddy person in my young days.

That was very important in our life. Every Sunday, holy days and all these other days. In the bush we had to get up early

6 o'clock in the morning, go to the mess in town. It would take us half and hour, 20 minutes. That was very important. We had a lot of nuns too in those days. They were at the big convent. Beautiful convent. I believe it’s more or less for the sick

now, and the elderly. The most gorgeous grounds in those days. Had a lot of boarders too. They come from far and wide to go to St Mary’s College. They taught all these business principles, everything that I was talking about that I wanted to do in my younger days.

Lots of those. After school fights ad all that

went on. My older sisters used to tell me, when we came in to the town, there used to be fights on the corner. Catholics on one side and the Protestants on the other. Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it, today? That was very common.

We used to call them “wowsers”. I don't know what they called us. What was it?

I should have talked to me sister at the weekend. I can’t think what they called us now, but I’m sure there’ll be someone in the archives who’ll know that. I can’t think. We used to call them “wowsers”. I ended up marrying one.

I didn’t get into much, but my older sisters did. They used to pull each other’s hair, I know that. I don’t think they used their knuckles or whatever they use for their fights. Pulling hairs mostly and kicking would have been the big thing. My sister-in-law was one of the wowsers. She did those things. Dear old thing. She's in a nursing home now. She’s 85 and she tells me that she used to pill my

eldest sister’s hair. They became sisters-in-law later on. So frivolous now. That was true. It was on for young and old I think. I used to be watching on most the time. Wasn’t really into it as the older ones. Most of them got bigger as I got older I think. I’m not sure about that.

Probably changed with the war, I’d say. I think it did. It was pretty tight before though. I know the mere thoughts of me marrying a Presbyterian would have been unthought of back in my early days. Even I wouldn’t have contemplated

such a thing. Mum and Dad went along with it because they liked him, but for their day, when they were older, they didn’t like that very much.

I wanted to get married and have children. I always wanted to work in an office, which I did eventually do later in life.

That was a long time coming. When I did that I was right. That was it for that stage.

No. Probably someone with a little more money than I had though to make life a little bit easier than what it was. Some of them were nice, but I couldn’t get to them because

I was either too young or they didn’t like me or something. I don't know what it was.

Probably about 15 or 16. I was a latecomer. Once I got into the dancing that’s when that came. Then I was mad on the boys you might say. That was the old saying in those days; “she’s loud on boys”.

Yes, the two older ones both married boys from our hometown. They were married when they were about 20-21, something like that. One married a boy that used to work in the gunner’s shop and the other one married a man that his father used to be a carrier, these

trucks I’m talking about. He had a fleet of trucks. Agnes, my eldest sister, she married one of his sons. They both married country boys. But my younger sister and I married brothers. That’s another thing. Jock’s brother Morris, and I my sister Norma, we married both of them.

Yeah, that was the thing once we got it.

We had an uncle who was always coming up to our place in the town. He was one of these doom and gloom persons. “Oh, there’s a war coming, blah, blah, blah”. He used to frighten the lights out of us. I think us kids used to go outside to get away from him. When it did come it came as a shock really.

It didn’t seem to, I suppose, because of our age, I was 19 then, because it broke out in 1939. I would have to be 19. I wasn’t a kid. I must have been a slow learner. So it didn’t mean a terrible much to us. Now, I’m

thinking about it, yes, it was announced on radio. It’s all coming back to me. Menzies announced “Australia is at war.” You’ve heard that many a time. Even after that it didn’t make a terrible difference to us. The only thing I think that the light horsemen became very evident in Gunnedah. You’d see them around on their horses a lot.

They were called light horsemen. A lot of the young men joined that. Yet, I don’t think I heard much about them. I must ask Jock about that one day. Then bit by bit the boys started enlisting and going off. By the time I was about to leave Gunnedah there was hardly any

of the young men we knew even to dance with there. There would have been one or two left at the age group I was in. So it happened in a dribble. They didn’t all go at once. Then it became very serious when we lost one person that was killed. Then

I think we really began to grow up and realise how bad things were.

Yes. He was one of out Catholics, Ronny Harrigan. They used to call him Monkey. I suppose I did too if the truth be known. No, he was a nice boy. I think he was killed outright. I don’t think he was taken prisoner.

So it must have been early in the 8th Division probably. Then things got really quiet and everyone got sick of it in Gunnedah. All; the girls were very restless and a lot of them started marrying soldiers because they started to come up our way, not in camps in Gunnedah, but in camps around Tamworth and those places.

A lot of them started getting married at my age and I was 20. So there were a lot of early marriages starting there. That’s about the biggest thing. The town become like a one horse town. I think all towns would have been like that. It was very dull and not very nice at all

the boys being away and the mothers and fathers being very restless and worrying about them. All in all that’s when it really hit us. It wasn’t straight away. In dribs and drabs it got to be like that.

No, his two sons didn’t go, but I think they were too old. He was a fairly old man. He would have been in his 80s, nearly 90s. I don’t really remember much about him. All I know is he used to come down and put the fear of death into us.

We didn’t like him very much. A black movie character. That type of man. We didn’t get much of people going about speaking about the war or anything like that. But it was in the city, not up there. It could have even in the big towns perhaps, but not so in Gunnedah. The priests got worried too and

this Father Keane I was talking about was getting to be a fairly old man by this time. They talked about tit, and the nuns of course talked about it. Apart from that it wasn’t too bad. My brother went off about that time too to join the air force. Not at the start, after a couple of years.

First of all we noticed at the dances. There was no one to dance with much. Then, would you believe it, we started to take a set on the ones that weren’t at the war. That went on too. You didn’t like the fellows that

hadn't gone to the war. That went on a lot. White feathers being sent to people. Wasn’t very nice.

Mm.

No I didn't. I didn’t know of one even having one sent to them. This was the talk, so there must have been something. Might have been a rumour. I know there was a lot of

talk about it. I was probably in the paper. There were a lot of old, we used to call them “busybodies” in our days. A lot of old busybodies around the town. This is the women I’m talking about, I betray my sex. That was true because I don’t think people would have made it up.

We wouldn’t dance with them when they came to ask us. Probably would dance with girls rather than dance with them. Wasn’t very nice, was it? They probably had a very good reason for it, but that went on too. I’m ashamed to say. It was an awful thing.

Yeah, I guess so. Probably copying someone else. Probably copying an older person who was doing that sort of thing. When I say we did that, maybe we didn’t do it very

often. Might have only done it once, I’d like to think anyway.

I think he wanted to get away from it all too. He was sick of it all in the town, of everyone going. I don’t think he could get away quick enough. Mum and Dad didn’t want him to go. I think most mothers and fathers didn’t want them to go, but they all found a way of getting there.

Jock tells me as soon as he turned 18 he was down to the recruiting office. His father didn’t even know till he got home that night. He was a very naughty boy I told him. That would have happened in Gunnedah too. I don’t know whether they recruited up there, whether they had to come down to the city. Something else I don’t know. I hadn't even thought about it before.

Couple of years before me. But it wasn’t straight away. Probably a year after the war started. When all these people were being killed and these prisoners of war and all this sort of thing. It was probably that stage. Things happened very quickly once they got away,

and went overseas, it seemed to happen straight away to our boys in Gunnedah. They were right into it. So I guess that’s what happens with war. Goes straight on as soon as they are prepared for it. They wouldn’t have had much preparation from what I remember. They were still with us mucking around in Gunnedah and the next thing they’re on a train and they’re

off. It was a very bad time, sad time really. I think it all depended what age you were and the circumstances, whether you had someone overseas or not too was another thing.

It did affect business. I think I might have been put off. I’m pretty sure I was now I think of it.

At this second place I went to. I think I was. I used to earn a few bob by these people out in, the Hodgkins, friends of Mum and Dad. I used to baby sit them at night time when they wanted to go out or something like that. I’d forgotten about earning a few bob that way. Probably 10 shillings, which was big money.

It wouldn’t have been for one night. That’s about what they get today isn’t it? They get that much an hour I’d say now. I don’t think there was anything else going on. We still were playing hockey and all that sort of thing went on. We were a girl team. Most the boys

from our team as well, ours was St Gerry’s, and the others, most of them had gone like my brother and my sisters’ husbands had gone. A lot of them were conscripted. My sisters’ husbands were both conscripted. They had to leave the girls and the family and

go away. That’s a bit down the track.

I think I was a bit envious of them. That probably made me a bit, I wanted to get away too. I couldn’t see much of a future up there. I wanted to come down and do my thing. What

I always wanted to do. I suppose it was a bit of a relief getting away from the town in a way. I should imagine so, because there was nothing happening. The dances were no good because the boys weren’t there. So what else was there? Nothing much. Just the girls on their own doing things. A lot of

women came down to the city at that time. I met a lot when I got down here that I didn’t even know were down here. Probably thought they got married and they were down here all the time.

Didn't want anything to do with it. Mum cried, I can remember that. I remember saying “I’m going. I’ve made up my mind, I’m going. I’m old enough and Kevin’s gone to the war and I’m going down

with Connie and Frank.” But I didn't go with them straight away. I went later. They were already down there. Everyone I knew around us were going. Everyone was on the move. Things were happened. Chris [interviewer] asked me when things started to change with the

religion. I think that’s when it did change. At the war years. That sort of thing happened too. Then it was no more Catholics and wowsers and all this. Everyone was as one with everybody. I think we became a closer and tighter community with it too. That’s only natural, isn’t it? That’s what happened.

Yeah, I do.

On that day Frank, I can see it now, he later became the mayor of Gunnedah, Frank O’Keefe. I hadn't met him then. Frank Hudson had written a letter to say “Mary can come down with Frank. On such and such a day he’ll be in Gunnedah,

be leaving on the Sunday.” I can remember going down the street. I must have carried my case down. I don’t remember anyone else carrying it for me. I remember going down to this hotel. I’d never been in a hotel in my life either. That was another thing. Women didn’t frequent the hotels at all. It wasn’t the thing to do. You didn’t go near a pub. That was against the religion. Another thing I forgot too.

We had Child of Mary as we were growing up in the Catholic religion. You had to make a pledge that you wouldn’t have a drink until you were 21. Wouldn’t have alcohol until you were 21. Of course religiously most of us carried it out. I’d never been in a pub or even had a drink of beer until I was over 21 when I came down to the city. That was another raking point.

Nothing. The men were drinking from a truck or something like they all did. They used to have a truck there and they’d have their booze out there. The girls drank water and I don’t think we had any cool drinks either. Nothing like that. Just had water. I think we went out to the tap and had a drink of water.

Yes, I went down to the Royal Hotel to meet Frank O’Keefe. I remember going in thinking “oh dear, is someone looking at me?” I sat down on the lounge. He came along and shook hands with me and told me who he was. Then he went off to see somebody and then off we went. I was still very shy at this stage. Found it a bit

hard to converse with an older person. He was older than me. He must have been 40s or 50s. Maybe he wasn’t that old, but when you’re a child and you’re young, they all seem old, don’t they. He was probably in his 40s. He made me feel quite, I sat in the front with him and he put the case in the back. Off we went. He was very nice all the way down. At the same time I felt a bit

uneasy. “Was I doing the right thing about coming down all this way in a car with this man? I only know him through Frank Hudson.” Then I began to think, “This is what Mum and Dad were probably worried about.” We got down safe and sound.

We arrived at Bondi in the middle of the night. It must have been about 2 o'clock when we left Gunnedah and we arrived at Bondi at midnight I think. Frank and Connie got out of bed and received us at the door. Frank would have had to get up and go to work the next morning, so that was my next home for about a year or so. That was Bondi Beach. Very notorious Bondi Beach

these days. I didn’t think much of it. Listen to what hey think today. I quite liked it after a while. We were in Hall Street I think it was called. Close to the beach. She used to go down there every day, take the kids. I used to go down too, but I couldn’t go to the beach very much because of my skin. I was not like you, dear.

Never a beach person. I couldn’t stay down there cause I’d be like a lobster in no time at all. That was another thing. We used to go on picnics with the Gunnedah Catholics. I can remember going to this party one night. We’d been to a picnic all afternoon and I was as red as a lobster. My nose was red, my arms were red. I must have had a low cut dress on or something.

I was miserable. I felt terrible. I had to stick it out. That was another thing for being self conscious too, my skin. We used to swim in the river. That was another thing we did a lot of. I nearly drowned half a dozen times I think. They used to drag me up. When we were in the bush itself, we’d go down to the nearest

bit of river when it was flood time and swim in it. A terribly dangerous thing to do. They’d come out from Gunnedah in the boat and sail around in the boat. Us kids were all out swimming in it. We became good swimmers. That’s the thing about it. We got a lot of fun out of swimming.

Probably a comb, hairbrush,

toothbrush, toothpaste, a couple of dresses, no slacks or nothing like that. Underclothes, a handbag I suppose, gloves and a hat. I wouldn’t have had a hat on that day. I would have taken it with me. You didn’t go anywhere without your gloves and hat.

That’s about all I had that I can think of. That was all my belongings. I never went back to get anything else anyway, because Mum and Dad shifted. They left there. Another job for my father. He took on managing a place out of Coonabarabran then. Another

dead end job you might say. So thereafter he never had a good job. That must have been a great disappointment to him in his life I think now. It’s not relevant to what you’re televising today though.

No, I didn’t like it much. I got to like it. I think when I got to ride the

trams and found my way into town, then I started to like it. I really got to like it then because it was so quick. You’d be into town in about 20 minutes in those days. There weren’t many cars or anything. There were only a few cars in Gunnedah as well. There wasn’t any people with cars. Maybe a dozen cars. Then they all,

after the war they all got cars. The people that had money they tell me had money after the war. People that had money didn’t have money after the war. Whether that’s true I don't know. Only what you hear later on. That was the thing, coming into the big time. I was big time too, coming from the bush to the city. First time ever. It was mostly

because the Hudsons made all the difference. A home away from home. They made me so welcome. She didn’t go to work, but as he got going with the Wall and Josephson’s, he sort of got up the ladder. He was a salesman then, but then he became one of the managers. So it was pretty big time then. They started going out to dinners at the various

places. I minded the kids at home. It was really exciting for me. I think it was only because it was such a stale in the bush with all the boys leaving town and coming to the big city. I learned to love it. Got to like it very quickly then.

I didn’t think much of it that first week or two. I suppose it was a case of settling in and settling down to another life.

A lot more than in the bush. You had to pull the curtains at night and all that sort of stuff. They had, I think they called them

having blackouts. You’d have to have the place blacked out, which we didn’t have up there. A lot of people then started to leave Bondi and go to the bush to get away from it, because things were getting serious down there then. Even so, there was a war. But for us young people it didn’t

affect us I guess I’m trying to say. It didn’t really affect us that much. Me in particular anyway. We hadn't lost anybody and we were still doing the same when we left Gunnedah. Then all doors seemed to open down there and became very exciting. Jock even says that today, that “from what I can see, when we were away everybody

seemed to be having a good time” and that’s true because the Yanks came out. So it wasn’t all doom and gloom like I think a lot of people would think today that it was. For us younger people it wasn’t, for the people who lost someone, the older people got the worry. It would have been a lot worse I can imagine. Things went on. I didn't know what they

were like in the city. Might have been always like that for all I know. I couldn’t see that part I suppose. It was quite exciting as far as I was concerned. Until I got called up. But we’ll go into that next time about being called up for the munitions factory. That was a great blow to me

because that wasn’t what I had in mind. Frank Hudson tried to get me out of it, wrote to different ministers. He knew some people and he couldn’t even do it. So the letter came and that was it. Had to do it. I hated the thought of it. Didn’t like it one bit. It was really horrible.

I was hoping to do a business course and do what I always wanted to do, work in an office. Then I suppose get married and have children. That put a stop to all that sort of thing. It was really a big blow to me. That was the worst thing that happened to me I guess. Everything else was great.

Getting more exciting every day. I hadn't met Jock or anything like that. No, it was really good until all that happened and that was the start of a bit of a decline, but we got over that too.

I wasn’t aware of it at all.

We didn’t get that much news. They didn’t give us much news. I think a lot of people aren’t aware that we didn’t really know what was going on. All the letters to the soldiers were censored and the people back home didn’t get much information about anything at all. All we heard was what they wanted us to know on the radio or in the papers. I think we only used to get

Sunday papers in those days. So that wasn’t much. Even when I came down to the city we didn’t get much information either. It was still only radio anyway. Television hadn't come in. They only told us what they wanted us to hear. Very little.

People didn’t seem to be worried in the city very much, what I conceded. They were all rushing up, rushing here, rushing there, rushing everywhere. There weren’t as many cars as there is today, so you can imagine what it was like. Really quiet. I was just seeing another side to it all I guess when I first came down.

Being short of things. I don’t think the coupons had come in then. I’m not too sure when they came in. You had to have coupons to buy sugar, butter, important things, meat, chocolate I think was out of the shops altogether.

And clothes. You had to have coupons for them. Stockings were unheard of. That’s when the Yanks came in. The brought a lot of the nylon stockings. You’ve probably heard a lot about that. We were game about stockings. That’s pretty awful because we couldn’t get them. They had to go to making something for soldiers I guess.

Uniforms I suppose. The munition factory took over the local clothing factory. So I guess they went downhill and the munition factories all took over. I guess that’s what happened and that’s why the food got short as well as people sending them away and all this sort of thing.

I also joined the Red Cross when I got down here. We used to go to meetings and we used to make camouflage nets. I don’t know who got them. Might have been the navy. The only thing I can think of.

Just for something to do, to go and make these nets. A lot of the things that

were happening were sort of the only suit your self in other words. You weren’t really giving up much, although you were giving up, if you couldn’t get the coupons for your clothes and you might have had more money, but you couldn’t spend it because you didn’t have enough coupons. That’s when the black market came on with coupons. People used to sell their coupons to people to get

money. I didn’t know anyone who did it though. I guess it did go on. I’d say it did. Then we still had the Sunday night radio with the Palmolive and Lux programs and all those actors we used to listen to, John Tate, Nicky Tate, he was starting out after his father in

those days. Peter Finch and all that lot. That was the start of another era. We had that. I suppose things went on as they were mostly. When I came to Sydney anyway. I don’t think we did anything different.

The people that I came down to live with, the Hudsons as they got up in the world wanted to come up here to live because, I don’t know whether it was because of the war or what it was. They bought a block of land not far from here. They built a house a couple of streets down. I think it didn’t take long to build because Frank knew people

who could get bricks. In no time at all he had this nice house down in Balmoral Street, which is only on the corner straight down towards the station. So I came up with them. That’s when the letter came not long after I came up here. I guess it was a year. Probably would have been a couple of years.

It’s hard to remember back just when all that started. I think I was about 22 because I was married at 25. I think I had to be 22 then when I came up to Waitara to live. That’s’ the first time I’d never heard of such a place, Waitara. I’d heard of Hornsby because of the train line I’d been through some time or other.

Before that I’d never even been over the Hawkesbury River Bridge. I came over it the first time when I came down that Sunday. I can remember it being a Sunday. I don't know why. Being a weekend, people travelling I suppose. Frank O’Keefe would have had probably an appointment to go to the next morning. That’s why he had to be down that night.

I don't know what he did. I think he lived the other side of the Manly side and had to come out of his way a fair bit to take me to Bondi and then take himself back home to Manly. He would have been hours getting to bed that night.

He was the minister for war and something else.

I should have kept the letter, shouldn’t I? What was he minister for? I remember his name too. I’ll think of it next time. I can see it now, emblazoned. Minister for, no won’t come to me. I always remember his name. Didn't like him very much.

Yes. An official letter with all the trimmings on the top, “Minister for so and so and something hereby on this day so and so, you are to report to something Manpower.” It was called Manpower. Then I had to go and see them. I don't know where I went. In town somewhere. Must have been a big place in town. Yeah, it was.

The Manpower office I think might have been in Pitt Street or one of those streets in those days. I’ve forgotten. Someone had to tell me how to get there and all this sort of thing. It was pretty nerve wracking to go in there. I wish I could think of that man’s name. It’ll come back to me, cause I’ve remembered all these years.

Damn.

It was no good to me. Frank wrote letters and things. It didn’t do any good, so I had to do it. Then, what was I going to do? I didn't want to join the land army or any of those things, going back to the bush again, that was out. Then they told me there was only this, that and the next thing, see I hadn't been trained for anything. This was the worst thing. Had I been trained

like for the office that I wanted to do, I could have gone into the office part. That would have been all right because those girls were quite happy just being office workers there. They were about a half a dozen that I got to know later. They were quite nice. There was no way you could get away, you just had to do it. So I didn’t want to join the air force. A girlfriend of mine joined

the air force, but she didn’t mind going to the bush. She wanted to do something different for her. I didn’t want to join the army either. So this was the only other thing that I could do. Had I been trained to do office work I could have done that, and I’d have made a better type of person. But they were so rough. I’ll never forget it. it was like going into another world. I’d never been used

to it. They turn up for work the next morning drunk, spent half their time out in the toilets smoking. It was a nightmare.

I just loved it as I got used to it. I used to love everything about it. I loved the smell of it. Even the smell of, I don't know what it was. The smell. It’s either car on the roads, maybe it was the trams, I don't know. I’ve always had that sort of

smell I can remember coming down there and thinking “that’s lovely”. I wouldn’t say it today. It’d be smog today. I probably had very clean lungs coming from the country in those days. Everything was exciting. Even though the boys were away there was another lot coming home on leave. So those were in the city as well. You had the trams.

I had never been on one all my life. Only once when I came down and I was only young. That was a thrill even on the trams. I got to like trams very much. From Bondi into town was no time at all. Really great.

Don’t they have one goes from the

railway?

You cold walk right through from one thing to the other like it was a hallway. You walked straight through and back down front so the conductor could get around and get his fares. He’d sing out “fares”. Don’t ask me how and why, he knew everybody that had paid or

hadn’t paid. He used to come into the, we’d be sitting opposite each other like the old railway carriages were, compartment like. They probably would have been about 10-12 compartments on every, whether there were I don't know, I just imagine it now. It seated probably 8 people in one compartment.

He used to go from one compartment to the other “fares, fares” collecting. He always knew who’d paid and who hadn't and throw someone off if they hadn't. Then they had a line coming like an iron thing right down the middle. There was something up there and you pulled it when you wanted to get off. It rang

a bell for the driver to pull up down the other end. Back in those days they had two people on the tram. I don’t think they have that today. Only one. They had the person driving and a guard. The guard watched for the traffic coming and called for the driver to start and all that. The paper kid used to come on “paper, paper,

have you bought the paper?” and all this sort of thing. Can you remember that? That was another thing I’d never heard in all my life “paper, paper, get your morning paper.” Then say whichever paper it was, the Tele and Sun. There were half a dozen in those days. Two papers a day. We can’t even afford these days to have a paper once a day. Postman coming twice

a day, morning and night. We’ve come back, we haven’t gone far, have we? You don’t know that because you weren’t around.

I used to go in to meet people. Go into DJs [David Jones] and have afternoon tea with gloves and a hat

and the bag and everything. Used to meet people from the country mostly that I knew. Actually I met someone who’d lost her son, which was very sad. She was a lovely woman.

She was a friend of my husband’s, but that's in the war days. This is later on. That was the same outfit as my husband was.

The windows were something out of this world. Especially at Christmas time. Nothing like it is today. It’s very poor, cheap, awful, but there was white snow, everything was so beautiful and clean, really gorgeous. DJs was really something in those days. They had the most beautiful clothes. Women dressed expensively. No shortage of money it seemed. They had

all these Hermes coats and frocks that you wouldn’t see today. Every floor the woman walked around snobbish. The women who worked were snobbish, wouldn’t serve you, this attitude. “What would you like?” as though they were looking down their noses at you. It was beautiful, every part of it. Then there was another store called

Mark Foy’s. It was the most glamorous one of all I think. It was a beautiful floor. I don't know whether there’s remnants of it still around.

That was very fairytales for someone who had never seen anything like it when they first came down here. I don't know how many floors. Must have been 6 or 7 or 8. Huge. On the bottom floor you’d walk in

there’d be a table, they used to put all these cheap things out, we thought they were cheap. You know how you walk in now to Grace Brothers and DJs, first thing you se all these blooming perfume. This was like beads, jewellery. There’d be a table of jewellery here and there all over the place was jewellery,

beautiful beads and the most gorgeous looking stuff that you never see today and never will I don’t think. Really expensive looking stuff. That was on the ground floor. They had the usual lovely counters. I think they’ve still got those in DJs, have they? Haven’t been in there for a long time cause we’ve got one of our own up here. But it’s very second rate stuff

up here to what it was then.

It is. Gosh, at Christmas it was just wonderful, beautiful. Everything was new to me. I suppose I was young and I didn’t notice that things might have been a bit tacky. Everything seems tacky to me today. That’s happened with the years going by probably. It was a huge place.

We had lifts. You had escalators. Had everything. No one seemed to be in a hurry and there was always plenty of room in the lifts. A man dressed beautifully in his uniform, probably velvet, probably stinking hot on a hot day. The winter would be all right. Probably blue and had a bit of

gold around the cuff. Probably a bit hat like one of those bowler hats, but that’s not the thing. Sort of a square looking thing. Lovely lights everywhere. Lit up.

Mm.

We had the Trocadero. The Trocadero was the big thing for dancing. As I got used to the place and a friend of mine came down from the country, she also stayed with the Hudsons when they come into this new house. She came from Grafton. We used to go into the Trocadero. It was a long way from here too. That was an eye opener for you. A gorgeous place.

There was a band called George, some name, he was popular with all the girls. We had plenty of partners because the Yanks were there. Even though the soldiers were away there were still plenty home on leave. There was plenty of dances to go to.

Huge. You’ve never seen anything like it. You wouldn’t see it today. What do they have today to dance? Where do they dance? It was big as a, you know the skating rink? Be as big as that. It was huge. It’d be packed. It was where everybody went on

a Saturday night. You went to the Trocadero. That was the in thing to do. Gussy, someone Gussy was his name. Bert Gussy. This girl singer. She had a beautiful voice ad she was the rage of the town. It was great.

We didn’t wear evening frocks then. No, we just wore an ordinary frock.

Trousers hadn't come in then. You didn't do that sort of thing. It was all dresses, short ones. Not the real short ones like today. Not the mini skirts. Probably down to about there or something like that. The men, they had their ordinary clothes on. Shirt and trousers. No suits. Only at the balls or socials that they wore the balls. They had

tuxedos and things like that at the big occasions.

Probably three quarters of them would be in uniform. The rest would be local. The boys that were working in the munition factories or hadn't bee called up or

something like that.

I knew a few from the country that used to come down and see me. Don’t know how we heard they were coming, but we used to know they were coming. I suppose the telephone and someone had written to us to say so and so was coming down at a

certain time. We’d make a place to meet. Under the clock at the GPO [General Post Office] was a great place to meet. DJs corner was another one. That was handy for me coming in from Bondi on the tram. You went passed there. Used to go down, what’s the name of that street at St James’ station?

Elizabeth, yes. When I went to work

out there at Alexandria, that’s where I was called, I used to get out at St James’ station and walk over the road, go under ground at St James and catch a train to Alexandria. That’s where I went to work. I think we started at 8 and I think I left, I think I did it in an hour. I think I left Bondi at 7.

Mm.

Used to see them everywhere. I didn’t know any of them. Hadn't caught up to them at that stage. I still don’t know any, so I can’t tell you anything about them. But I did have a friend who’s cousin went

out with one and we got to know him. He was the only one that we knew. He was a nice fellow. He used to take her out. One married one and went overseas. One of his cousins. It wasn’t a cousin of mine, a cousin of this friend of mine. She went over there to live. Don’t know whether she ever came back either. Don’t think she did. We didn’t know

too much about them at all. We were a bit scared of them I think. Mostly the Negroes.

Oh yes.

Mostly at Bondi Beach. Later you saw them like little ones in the prams. A little child in the prams, see them come home on leave. That was real. It’s hard to imagine.

That one that I met was a nice fellow. Then Jock told me that they hated them because the uniform, you saw how beautiful their uniform was. Have you ever seen one?

I’ve still got an old one of my husband’s here. We leave it for posterity in case the grandchildren might want it. He was photographed in it one time. They were made of the very best material. Gabardine I think they were made of. Lovely soft gabardine. This was the best material you could buy. Our poor blokes had this horrible flannel. The most gruesome

thick, it was hardish. Even today one of my daughters-in-law felt it and she said “how on earth did Jock wear that?” I said “they had to. That’s what it was.” Yet the Yanks had these beautiful, no wonder they were a bit jealous. All they heard of when they were in camp wherever they were, hearing the Yanks were taking over, which they did. They took their girlfriends and wives I suppose.

Didn’t seem fair at the time. They were so beautifully groomed and they were the ones that had a dial on stockings. That attracted a lot of girls cause we didn’t have stockings.

Had to. It was cold too. I remember having a coat on and no stockings. My feet being cold. On a cold

day and the wind blowing it was awful. It was really shocking. The silk was used for making the parachutes. That’s what they wanted the silk for. That’s why the women had to give away their stockings, which was a bit tough I reckon, when you think about it. Surely they could have cut something else out

besides silk.

Gosh, that’s a good question. They were only getting 6 shillings a day. That’s not what it is today, dollars.

They didn’t give us presents when they came on leave cause they couldn’t afford it. Only when you became engaged you got the ring and got married. You’ve gotta remember that this gift giving thing wasn’t in you see. My father never even had a 21st birthday present. Yet his father and mother could afford it.

It wasn't the done thing. It wasn’t in. Not even, well, look at today’s parties, there’s houses taken over for parties. We even had one here for our son. They didn’t have that. They weren’t to be pities. They were really tough. The air force was a bit better. I don't know what their material was, but they

always looked better. My brother-in-law, Jock’s brother was in the air force. His uniform was lovely. It’s a beautiful uniform. You know what they used to call them? “Blue Orchids” they called the air force because of their blue uniform.

They were the glamour boys whereas the poor old soldiers,

the measly old soldier, on foot as most of them were in those days.

Never had anything to do with the navy either. Didn't know a navy person I don’t think. There weren’t many up here for a start. That was very unlike, to see a sailor in Hornsby or

Waitara. I can only remember ever seeing one sailor up here. Looking back on it, cause we get all the RSL, Jock gets them all for magazines and that, you never see anything about able seamen or anything like that being a member of the RSL [Returned and Services League]. It’s always soldiers of air force. They can’t have been too popular. Maybe it was hard or something.

Might have been that. I don't know why that was. I must remember to ask somebody.

Very quiet. I can show you photos. I went back there to live later. I’ve got the baby, the oldest one, the girl,

and she’s in the photo with me and there’s no one around us. Someone remarked on it “where’s the people?” There was no one around, that’s why. You could go down there to have morning or afternoon tea. You could take it with you in a basket and sit down and always be sure of getting a cubicle they called it in those days. You know the old pavilion at Bondi Beach?

Cubicles were

you sat and you could eat and do what you want to do. They were a seat this side, a seat this side and a table in the middle. There were three each side of the pavilion. The old people used to sit down there and play this game of, what’s it?

Yes, something like that. Chess. You’d see

a lot of men with chess boards so you can tell how many people were there. They had plenty of room to lie on their chest and sit up in their cubicle and play chess. So it was very quiet. You wouldn’t see a soul. That’s’ how it’s changed.

I was

at Waitara. We went all around and heard it on the radio, early morning, we heard about it. Probably 7 O’clock news or something like that. And read it in the paper the next day in the afternoon papers. Hudson would be home with the afternoon paper and we’d read about last night’s news. Mostly got it from radio. We got all our news from the radio. That was the big thing.

Weren’t prepared for that. It was a shock. First thing, you couldn’t believe it, that someone had been killed or drowned. I’ve forgotten how many they lost. 20 something was it? First occasion. I think there were 2 occasions. One I think was Sunday night. I think that’s

the first that went down. I think they were both seamen. They was an able seamen and they hit the boats or something like that. We were up here, a long way out of town. Had I been at Bondi then I think it would have been a different tale. We would have been scared stiff because at the same time, that’s how we came to live out there because we were able to get flats. People went to the country

to live. A lot of them went to the mountains. I know heaps of people that went to the mountains. They went to the country towns. They went everywhere and anywhere to get away out of the city. Those units all over Bondi became plentiful. Cheaper too. It was quite a cheap place when Jock and I got there. That was a few years down the track. Things did change, there’s

no doubt about that.

Maybe it was. I just thought it was him going up in his job like a manager. Not manager of the firm, but manager of one of the big things they had out there. You’ve never heard of this earth moving equipment have you? Wall and

Josephson?

They would be. He later, when he left Wall and Josephson, he had his own out at Balmain. It was under Frank Hudson at that time.

They were while I was down here. Lovely people. They had lived in New Guinea and

had left there because of the war. The oncoming war anyway. They weren’t married then, she’d gone up there. This was earlier. She’d been married before. No, Connie wasn’t married before, it was Frank. Frank had been married before. He was living there, it wasn’t Connie. She wasn’t there. It was him. He suffered from malaria all his

life. He died from it too. That’s where he picked malaria up. He was up there with his firm doing this earth moving stuff. What was it he was putting in up there? He did tell us. Maybe it was something to do with, not air conditioning. That wasn’t around those days was it? Maybe it had something to do with

pipes and things, but I wouldn’t know what it was. I know he spent 5 years there. Then they got married. She was a very good hairdresser. A lovely little thing. Her mother was Chinese, but Connie was a beautiful looking woman, only a tiny little thing. I’m tiny now too, but I wasn’t tiny then. I was quite tall. She was tinier

than me. She had red hair. Funny isn’t it, coming from a Chinese family with red hair. The most attractive woman you’ve ever seen. Lovely. She had two children. Actually, I minded the youngest. Lovely boy. He was my favourite of the two. The other was a girl. She was my eldest and Bob was my favourite. He was killed at this blooming earth moving place that his father owned in Balmain.

He was up on the scaffold and fell down. He was inspecting something. Terrible thing.

Later on. This was after the war.

Yeah, he was older than Connie probably by about 10 years. He was well established in his job. He started as a salesman selling tractors and things to my father and

his father and people like that around Gunnedah. He did well for himself and ended up with a mansion at East Lindfield. A beautiful place.

Lots. Only thing he couldn’t do was get me out of going to this blooming place. We always kept in touch.

They bought me lots of clothes,

things like that, took me out to places I’d never been to in all my life. We used to go to Brooklyn just about every Sunday for a drive. I’d never been by car anywhere in the city. Only when I first came down with Frank O’Keefe. They used to take me up there and we’d have chips and oysters on a Sunday afternoon in Brooklyn. It was quite something in those days. There’s not too many people had cars, they had a beautiful car.

It was all very thrilling for me. Quite a novelty really. It was something new in my life, to have all that luxury around me. A lovely home and a room of my own. It was great. They treated me as their own.

First of all they wouldn’t take him. I’ve forgotten why. He got a job in the munitions factory. That was long before I

did. I don’t remember where that was. I think it was Newtown. I’m trying to remember why they wouldn’t take him. Maybe they got less choosy as the years went by and then he was able to go away. He might have only spent 6 months or something. I know he joined the air force and he went to New Guinea

and all those places most of them went to.

That was after. No, I’m mixed up there. I must have started it when I was at Bondi. I completed it after I left the munitions factory because

I wasn’t qualified at that time to get an office job. I had no training beforehand.

I suppose to be self reliant and stand up for myself. I think people said how much I changed when I come to the city. I grew up. Different person. I suppose I’d left that scene behind, the one that made me so

self conscious and all that. That was behind us then and we all made new lives for ourselves. We started to live, I’d say, once we got going. When Jock came on the scene. That was the start of everything. We used to go to the dances over at the Catholic Church at Waitara.

They used to have a dance every Saturday night. The same thing happened there, there were hardly any locals, but the boys came home on leave and that’s where I met Jock. He came home on leave one weekend and he told me later that he used to go to all these dances before the war and I had never met him. He knew most the girls that I turned out to be friends with, because

he’d met them at these dances over there when he used to come home on leave.

Very different. Quiet, lovely place. I liked it as much as I liked Bondi because they were two different things, but they

still had the city. You knew you weren’t too far from the city. You could go in at any time, I was in a great position. Being home with Ben, just minding the kids and I’d go out at night or something like that. Used to help with the house work. She did a bit and I did a bit. It was happy days. Then I’d go up to Hornsby and do a bit of shopping or something in the afternoon, come back on the train, walk from the station. She’d

go into town one day and tell me all the news about what she did. She went to lunch with certain folk and then she was getting up against the big nobs then. What they did, what they said, what she had on and all that sort of thing. I used to go once a week. Mostly Friday.

That’s mostly what I did. Met people from Gunnedah or people from other places that I’d met. That was all we did. It was all nice. They had a piano at David Jones too. The piano played. That was beautiful, this lovely music. You don’t get that today. Sitting down to lovely

scones and cream and jam.

Oh, didn’t I? This was later on I met this lovely lady, Bob Brown’s mother. She’d lost her son before I knew Bob. That was a lovely time for me to meet this

woman. She came from the country too, so we had a bit in common.

Very established. They had a good school at Waitara. Little kids that I was with, Bob and Jill, they went to the little school up here. At the same time we came up there was a

soldiers’ camp. They called them soldiers’ camps in those days. Do you know Waitara at all?

It was behind the school. There was a lot of land there where those houses are now. The entire place was taken over by a camp. It was called the Hordern Estate. You know

the Hordern place? Beautiful home. Still there today. It’s behind the school. The camp was between the Horderns’ big home and the public school. It didn’t make any difference to the school as far as the kids were concerned. They didn’t see anybody. Soldiers just went out every day somewhere on bivouacs or something I suppose. Didn't see much of them at all. You saw them around the town. The

kids, my little ones, Bob and Jill, they didn’t seem to take too much notice of the soldiers. They were used to seeing them coming down the lane. We lived on the corner of a lane. They used to pass every day, these soldiers that lived there.

This is when Jock was on leave. Must have been the early days. He hadn't gone to Western Australia then.

No. Early days of the war. Say 2 years down the track. Maybe 3.

Yes, that was at Waitara.

Then I had to go in. First of all he tried hard to get me out by writing letters to different people.

It didn’t do any good. Then I had to go into this big building, I think it was called the War Office or something, and stand before this fellow that wasn’t very nice. He told me straight that I had to do something and I couldn’t lounge around like this for the rest of my life. Not that I intended to. I’d have to do something and pretty quick. So then we put our

heads together what I was going to do. I wasn’t trained for office. The only other thing was a munitions factory. “We want you to go into something that’s all right. We don’t want you going into the guns and things like that. So we’ll start off with this Stromberg Carlson” ever heard that name?

They made radios, so that was all right. That part of it was OK, the making of the things. We used to put little radios for the soldiers to work on and take around with them. Jock was a radio, what was he? Navigator in the war. He knows a lot about the stars and all this

sort of thing. He’d never get lost. He’d know where north was cause he learned all that. They got great training in the army. Never forgotten it either. He remembers to this day all this sort of stuff he was taught in the army. Getting back to Stromberg.

It was terrible. It was awful.

I felt terrible. I was annoyed. I was so unhappy about it all. There was nothing you could do, it was like the men being conscripted. There were plenty like me. There were hundreds, thousands of them. I’ve met people even these last few years that I didn’t even know. They were working in Alexandria the same time I was. I play bowls with them. “For heaven’s sake, you were out there too when

you were a girl and I was there.”

I don’t think I had much after that. I didn’t like them. I didn’t have much at all. I wasn’t patriotic in those days. I am now, but I wasn’t then. I suppose because of what happened. Didn't go down well with me at all.

I was annoyed with Jock getting into the army so quickly. He just turned 19 or something. So I must have been against it from the tart I should imagine. I guess we all were against war, so we weren’t really patriotic, but we got into it as the war, as years went by.

Yes. That was really a social thing in a way

because I didn’t know many people, until I went to the church of course, and straight away I got in with most the girls my age. They told me that they were making these camouflage nets and would I like to come along. So I did. That’s what we used to do one night a week, Wednesday night for about two hours. Go at 7 o'clock and come home at 9, something like that.

It was quite good. Had a lot of talk going on. It was really a social thing.

I think it was at the bowling club in Waitara. That’s where it was.

There were only the women. There might have been one or two older men.

Then we’d knock off and have supper and talk and all that sort of thing. That’s really all we did. Had a lot of laughs and talk about different things we’d been doing all week. It was quite good.

It was, you know those fishnets?

That type of thing. We had a needle like this. I’ve forgotten how we used it now. We had to join this string I think, very thick string, join it all together. You had to know what to do. It took a while to learn actually. Because you had to go into a little corner and then you’d turn and go onto the next one and all that.

Some of the women would come around and watch us closely to see that we were doing the right thing. Probably we made a terrible mess of it. I think there were lots of knots and things that shouldn’t have been in there. I don't know what they did with them. Probably threw them away. I don't know. It seems a long time ago.

No, not at first. Once I joined the younger sisters at the church, that’s when it all started. When I say lonely it was only for a few weeks. About 3 or 4 week. I used to walk down to the shops here in the village. Then I met a girl down there who loved dancing. I became friends with her and

she took me under her guard. She used to say, “Come down. We’ll leave at half past 7.” And we used to walk down to Hornsby. It was quite a step from here to Hornsby too. That’s the way we went. No one else, there were no buses I don’t think. There was a train we could have got to go from Waitara to go to Hornsby, but we didn’t do that. We met down there and then we met a couple more girls on

the way up to the Cammeray. That was the meeting place for the week. Mostly on a Monday night. Before the dances started we used to play table tennis. We called it ping-pong in those days, which we all became good at. We sued to want to get there a bit early so that we could get something. It became quite a competition as to who would win. Next week we’d go back and

“we’re going to clean this one up” or whatever. We tried to. There was one girl, I remember she was quite a champion. Some of us would get up to her stage we thought we were pretty good then. No, that was good too.

It was a lovely dance floor. They had an orchestra down one end. We had

a piano, drums, girl on the violin I think. Might have been somebody on the saxophone. Quite a good little orchestra. Then there were two professional dancers that you could go to to learn. They were really good. Something out of the box. I never went to them cause they cost money.

I think they used to teach in the afternoons or mornings. Really exhibition dancers. They later used to go into the Trocadero and go in the big competitions, which was the big thing. Have you seen photos of ballroom dancing? The beautiful gowns and the men. It was something to look at. Dancing was quite a big thing in my life.

I was mad about it.

Joe’s Walk and Jazz, the Foxtrot. There were some of these other ones called the Old Time. They were just starting about that time. Didn't last long that Old Time. It was a mixture of the old and the new that was

just coming at that time. That was a nice dance. The other one was called the Orlando, and Maxine, I think they still do it today, the one that you keep meeting people. I can’t think what they called it.

It has, yes. Not like that now. That was

the place where people met their boyfriends and their husbands. Like me for instance.

They were doing that at the Troc all the time. Yes, we did that when we went to the Troc. We loved that. It was great because all these big American bands,

the “Chatanooga Choo-Choo” and all those old songs. “In the Mood”. That was a sensation. I think it was on hit programs for about 56 weeks or something. One of the longest running hits of all time I think. Do you remember that song?

I loved that. One of my favourites.

I think they were worried about it, but then everyone was doing it. All the girls went to dancing. It was the big thing, dancing and going to pictures. There was nothing else to do. Most the time, when the men were away, we used to dance amongst ourselves. There was always somebody on leave. The air force, they were down at

Lindfield, Bradfield Park it was called, their camp in those days. They used to come up. That was quite glamorous. These air force fellows. We liked them to come and ask us for a dance. And the soldiers coming home. There’s still a few civilians around working in the munitions factory. I had a couple that I used to dance with that I liked. Very nice fellows.

No one serious at that stage.

I think that was the time that girls didn’t go to hotels, pubs, then they started to all get out and

go into the hotels and all that sort of stuff. We hadn't started at that stage, but it was, especially amongst the girls that went out to dance, that was the big event. Night clubs were in town, but not out this way. They were the big affair as far as that type of person was concerned. Getting home at all hours in the morning. There were lots of big names.

Carl Thomas was one, I know we went there one time. I’d never been to a night club before and thought that was something out of the box. Really fascinated me because there were a couple of band leaders. They were always in the papers. Something about the band leader. Really big time like the stars are today. These fellows were always in the news. Not that they did anything, but

it was a certain amount of glamour about them.

A lot of smoking. Women smoked. I took it up for a while. I couldn’t draw back, so I gave it away. I was lucky. A lot of that went on. Young

women smoking. That’s when that all started. It was fashionable to have a cigarette in your hand. All this standing around with cigarettes. That was another thing. I don't know. Everything seemed to change. People getting around and doing things they’d never done before. The big thing was going into town

from here, because it was very quiet up around these places. Except for going to the dance once a week and playing tennis on a Saturday or Sunday. That was all that was happening. And going to this little social night with the making of the camouflage nets. I hadn't thought about that till you mentioned it.

Your grandma probably did it.

Nothing much here. Everything very quiet this way. There was more happening around

Bondi and places like that where they were more crowded. In the city it was all happening all the time. Every time you went in there you saw things that opened your eyes a bit. I can't remember offhand exactly what it was. There was an atmosphere in the town. Buzzing. The shops were busy and all these Yanks around

with girls on their arms. They were always going down to the boats down at the Quay. That was the big place. The Quay was the big thing too. People were meeting down there. For some reason a great meeting place was under a clock down near Central, and there was a big jeweller store there. That’s where a lot of people met. I suppose it

was because Central Station, a lot of people went by train and they walked down the big ramp and over the road was this big clock at a jeweller store. I can't remember the name of it.

Yes, the Glacierium. That was another thing. When I first came down I knew some people, how

did I know them? My sister told me about these people that lived in Coonabarabran and she got to know them well. They came down to the city and one of the wives lived in Sydney. I didn’t know them very well at the time. She was a great skater. She asked me would I come and learn. I went with her once

I think. I fell over most of the night. I wasn’t much good at it. That was very glamorous to see all these women in their short dresses and their skates. That was another eye opener. It was really lovely. Bright.

It was a big

barn. Huge. With this ice laid down. Always seemed to be full. The couple of times I went there were a lot of people there. Young people mostly. Probably even younger than we were. The younger teenagers because they weren’t allowed to go to dances and things. They were allowed to go skating.

That was something. That’s where this place with the clock.

Yes, you just knew. You couldn’t go there. You wouldn’t dare go down just out of

Taylor Square there. Some of those streets.

Yes. That was a very wicked place. That’s where, you’ve probably heard of that old Kate somebody and somebody Tilly Divine? They were notorious people with their boyfriends or husbands. You wouldn’t dare go down near that area. Even down

the Quay too. Not right at the Quay itself, but at the Rocks. That was quite a rough joint. That’s where a lot of, a few murders took place and the police were always charging someone down there. We never ventured down that area either. Even if you had to go, I went to Balmain once and I had to go down that way. I was feeling a bit scared even travelling through the place. The Rocks was nothing like it is today.

There were quite a few.

Lots.

The black market of course. Gambling. The police were always in the news raiding this joint or that joint. This is the word they used to use in those days. Arresting this fellow and that fellow. There was a notorious, can’t think of his name either. He

went to jail. Reagan? No, that’s not it. Darcy Dugan. He was always in the news because he escaped from the police a couple of times and did something. Got put away for a long time. I can't remember too much about him, but there was always something about Darcy Dugan in the Sunday papers. We had a paper called the Truth, which you weren’t

allowed to read it. My father used to get it and he’d hide it. We couldn't read the Truth because there was always something about adultery. In those days the divorce thing was all different too, because you had to be accused of adultery before you could get a divorce. They used to set it up a lot of times so the woman could get the divorce and the man could get the divorce

and find them in bed together or something like that. All that sort of thing went on. That’s different today.

I didn’t know anything. Do you know, we didn’t even know what “gay” meant? Would you believe that? We had never heard the word. I suppose living in the country, I don’t think even the girls that I knew down here at Waitara knew much about

that either. The homosexuals wasn’t mentioned. The word, never heard it. I got quite a shock when I was told about it. I used to say “I don’t believe it” and all this sort of thing. It was true and was always there, but we didn't know about it. A lot of them perhaps wouldn’t have talked about it. Even they, I don’t think they knew too much about it either. My father later

on in life used to ask me certain things about these gays. I’d have to tell him. Sounds ridiculous when you thing about it today.

Didn't know much at all. In our family my father told my eldest sister and she told the rest of us. So that’s how we learned that. On the other hand we sort of knew

because we had the cattle, we had the sheep and you couldn’t help but notice there was something going on there. The girls weren’t allowed in the paddocks when they were doing the castration of the lambs or the cattle and what have you. So there was a sense of knowing what was going on, but not knowing the full truth. So I guess that was the same with the

promiscuity.

Yes, I did.

I just think we picked it up ourselves. Just from other girls talking, cause you know women. We talk. Amongst my lot anyway. I had two older sisters who told me a good bit. They didn’t know much either.

They didn’t know about gays or anything like that. They were 4 years older than me, so it wasn’t spread around very well. It could have been in the Truth paper perhaps. I don't know. I can't remember what was in it cause we weren’t allowed. Only when we got to see it sometimes under the lap you might say. Would have been left there and they didn’t know and we got to it.

It was all picking it up from other people I’d say, most of that.

No. Not a bit of it. It would have been the last thing. It went on though, as we found out, as time went by. It was going on all the

time. How long it had been going on I don't know. Then, when I lived at Bondi I met a couple of people who, this girl knew a bit more about things because her mother used to tell her a lot. Her auntie was divorced and that was one of those cases I was telling you about when the adultery, so she was able to inform us

a lot. So that’s how you got your information.

That was out of Bondi when we saw little black ones in the prams. Hadn't even occurred to us, you know. Quite a shock. I can remember this day walking with a friend

down at the beach and we saw a couple of prams with little black babies in it. That’s’ when we started to wake up that things were going on. Yes, there was quite a lot of that. But not out here strange to say. We were isolated. Very quiet place up this way.

Yes, my sisters. They had children. They had one each when their husbands were away. It was hard for them. Very hard. At that time the big thing were the pictures. They used to go to the pictures a couple of nights a week. Then my youngest sister used to mind their children for them when they went. That was their little break.

The price of the tickets to go in was 2 [shillings] and six [pence]. That would be today, 40 something. 2 and 6 to go and see the pictures. Sometimes they’d go twice a week. Friday and Saturday night were the big nights to do those things.

No, but we used to know about it. Beer though, used to buy it on the black market. Come Christmas time and the men wanted beer they all knew of somebody they could go to where they could get some beer. I don't remember my father doing it, but I know it went on. That was mostly round about Bondi. I don't know

whether it went on around here. I think they started brewing their own at that stage. The brewing business came in about the wartime. I don't know of anyone that really did it.

Couldn’t get chocolates, I do know that. Clothing

of course. Then the coupons came in. Whether you could get those little luxuries, I don’t think you could. I think they were still under the lap as they say. If people knew somebody who knew somebody then they could get that type of thing. I didn't know much about that, but I know it went on.

There was meat, sugar, butter, tea, then in the cosmetics probably soap, powder, all that type of thing. Lots and

lots of stuff. Any luxuries, what I conceive it, were hard to get. But we got by. I suppose someone gave us some. Some of our friends perhaps knew somebody who’d give them something. You’d do it like that. And your family.

I think we had to go to the post office. Maybe you go it

at the start of the year, they posted you. I can’t think. I should have looked that up. I’m not sure how long we had them for. Maybe 6 months and then they gave us another lot. Not too sure about that.

Have you ever seen the green coupons that we used to have years ago?

Coupons, if you bought tea you would get a label on the end of this tea. You’d save all your labels and then you’d go to a certain place in town and they would have all the coupons there. I’m not sure how you got the coupons in the first place. We had the labels. There must have been coupons on them in the

tea or something. You might have to have 24 or something and you might get a tea towel or a cup and saucer. If you had 48 you’d get something better the more coupons you had. That was a big thing, the coupons. Bushells Tea I think was one of the main people who did that. They had a big shop down by the shop we were talking about the other day, Mark Foy’s, Anthony Hordern’s I mean, another big place down near

Central. Used to have to go down there. It was a bit thing around Christmas. The women used to take their coupons in and get something nice for Christmas. Might have been a tea towel or a table cloth or a towel even. But we all appreciated little things like that.

I think we had them in a book.

Then when we went to buy something you had to rake off so many coupons for that. We were always trying to hold onto as many as we could because some little luxury. We didn’t like spending them. Spending the coupons was like spending money. In my day we were all pretty frugal as regards money. Probably

stood us in good stead, because we had to. Not like it is today.

Yes, they were called parcels. We used to make cakes in a tin. I think they handed them out to us, I’m not too sure,

or we bought them in a shop. We made a fruitcake and then we put them in this tin and wrapped it up in only brown paper I think. Maybe someone else did something after we took them to the post office. They were sent away. Yes, hundreds and hundreds of women did that. They used to go to the Red Cross and CWA and people like that. You would probably go there and talk to them about where they were to go.

Jock’s mother was into that sort of thing. They used to meet once a week or something like that, the Red Cross, and they used to go and cook and do all that sort of thing to get parcels ready for the boys. Lots of parcels. Jock said they were really well looked-after. That was good. That was the only thing I ever sent were cakes. Other people would have had other things to send.

Perhaps papers and magazines and all that type of thing would have been sent to them too. I didn’t do that. I’m not too sure what they did with all that. They would have received soap. The soap on the army was pretty awful. And little luxuries like that. No, deodorant wasn’t in I don’t think. I can't remember. All these things change after.

I can't remember deodorant being around.

Yes, talcum powder was. That was around when we were kids. Johnson’s Baby Powder, that was around. Vaseline, that type of thing. Whether Lux soap and Palmolive soap was rationed, it probably was. Probably had to have coupons for that.

Yes, they used to be in, especially weekends you’d see them around. Probably on leave like the men were. They wore, you probably know what they wore. They wore khaki. The girls in the army were called the AAMWS [Australian Army Medical Women's Service] were they? Yes, AAMWS. They

wore sort of a khaki type of dress, uniform you’d call it. It was a bit better quality than the men wore thank goodness. It wasn’t nearly as thick and coarse as theirs were. They weren’t too bad. The air force girls had navy. That was quite nice. The land army had something else. I’m not too sure what that was. I think it was something brown maybe.

They had a good time too, the girls that went away in the land army they loved it a lot of them. They had to work hard, but they used to pick fruit and all this sort of stuff and went down Luton way. They helped out in the farm and probably met their husbands. I don't know. They went to various towns you see. They seemed to

love their life, most of them.

Oh no. I got away from that. I’d had my share of that sort of thing.

No. Wasn’t interested. I wanted something in the city, something more brighter. I wasn’t interested in that at all.

Yes. They did suggest things like that. It was left to you to make up your mind what you were going to do in the finish. That never came into it. As far as I was concerned I wasn’t interested in those things at all. I did have friends, one was in the army and one was in the air force and they loved it. They mostly did clerical work, which they quite enjoyed. They met

a lot of men too, that way. They met the officers that were staying in the officers’ mess at the time. That’s how they met them.

Good question. I don’t think they would have jailed you. I can't remember what it

was. Maybe they would have fined you, but I don’t think so. There must have been something, cause the men, if they didn’t go to the war, they were thrown into jail. You know conscripts. Maybe they did put them in. I can't remember that either.

No, I hadn't heard of that.

[…]

It was a great bit of talk and pondering going on about what I was going to do. Then we come up with perhaps the factory job would be all right. Then what was the other? Then I had to think where would it be. I guess we

looked in the paper to find situations I’d say. I can't remember, but I guess that’s what we did. We saw this ad for a couple of things “girls wanted for clothing factory to make parachutes.” This one was for putting

radios and things together. This was called Stromberg Carlson. It was the firm that I went to work for. That was the big name, Stromberg Carlson, in radios and all those things. That was what was decided. That’s where I went. I think I told Brett on the phone that day that I was there for 18 months, but I think I was there for about 3 years now I think about it.

Sometimes when you’re talking to people on the phone you just can’t think about little things like that. Jock and I were talking one day and he said, “You were there longer than that”. So I must have been.

I’d say it would

have been about that time. Maybe it was before. Not too sure on that either. I’d say around about that time because the Yanks were into the war and they didn’t come into it till Pearl Harbor did they? Yeah, they were well and truly established in Sydney, these girls, dropping the girls off

when we were going to work, or picking them up after work. So maybe it was a year or two down the track. What year was Pearl Harbor?

Yes, I’d say so.

Alexandria. 21 Reardon Street, Alexandria. I went from

Bondi first and then I used to catch the train at St James’ station and then we’d go out to Alexandria. Then we’d catch a bus from there to this factory, which was probably a couple of miles away, I don't know. Something like that. Fair distance, you couldn’t walk it. At that time of the morning you wouldn’t want to walk because you might be late. I think I used to leave Bondi, I think we either started at quarter to

8 or 8 o'clock. I wouldn’t be too sure. I think my sister told me last night that she thought I told her I used to leave Bondi round about 7 on the tram, so it must have been round about 8-ish we started. I have a feeling it might have been at quarter to 8. I think we knocked off at a quarter to 5. Something about that time.

I think I did it all in an hour, which was pretty good I suppose going from Bondi to Alexandria, which was I don't know how many stops from the city. Probably 4 or 5, something like that. You had to go through Newtown.

Yes, because it was hard

to get to know what you had to do, where you had to sit and remember all these things. What went on first. The next day you went back “what did I do yesterday?” You’ve gotta remember what she told me. They kept a very weary eye on you. That was a bit hard for a couple of days until I got into the thing. After that it got quite easy.

Some of them were pretty tough on us. The inspectors sent things back if they weren’t just right. They had to be, because they were going to the army and the air force so they had to be careful, and navy. So they had to have everything just right. First week or two was a little bit hard going. After that we settled down. I never really

got to like it. Until I met a girl, strange to say, that came from Gunnedah. I didn’t know that she’d come down. She lived in another part of the country, another road than I used to live in. The roads went out for miles and miles, different roads going here, there and everywhere. We only used to meet up on a

Saturday or a Friday when we went to town. I didn’t know that she was there. So that was good meeting her, because that was somebody I knew. There were a couple of other girls who were friendly. Some of them weren't. So it was a bit hard for a while. These others I was telling you about that were tough, rough, you didn’t look sideways at them because you were

too scared. We kept our distance. We sensed it, we knew we had to keep away from them or we might be in trouble. ‘Cause I think we both associated them with the likes of the Tilley Divines and those tough women up around the Cross, Darlinghurst way. We never did get to know that. I don’t think they wanted to

know us either, so it was rather strange. They always seemed to be in trouble with the woman that was the supervisor. They were always going out to some room or other and getting into a bit of trouble. I think it was for going out to the loo to smoke half the time. It seemed to me that was the big thing. They were always out there gossiping about the night before and going out with the gangs and what they did and what time they got home in the early hours of the morning.

They looked like it too the next morning I can tell you. They looked dreadful. They had mascara still running down their faces. It was ghastly. That was only that part of it. At weekends and when you got home you put all that aside and didn’t think any more about it until you went back the next day. That’s how I attacked it anyway. I guess it

wasn’t too bad. There was one good thing about it. We used to go to this shop to have our lunch and buy or sandwiches. They made beautiful salad sandwiches with corned beef and lettuce and tomato. That was a little break, a good part of the day. In the wintertime we used to sit up there. I think there was a log outside the shop and we used to sit on that in the sun to get a bit of sun on us.

Going down so early in the morning and getting home late at night we didn’t see much sun. So that was good, going to the sandwich shop. Used to make our day, so it was all right going back to work in the afternoon. We could stand it a bit better. It wasn’t very interesting.

I don't know.

Probably because I was a bushy. Probably the city girls felt like that. I know this friend of mine Joan, she did, and I did. I guess I thought they all did. Maybe they didn't. Maybe I was scared somewhere along the line when I’d say the wrong thing to them. So we were very meekly always getting in and out of the toilet

as quick as we could.

Probably pulled our hair or got into a fight. Something like that I’d say. That was the sort of thing that went on. Lots of fights amongst themselves. I guess that’s what we had in our heads too; keep your head down, don’t look at them too harshly and get out as quick as you could.

May be our imagination. I don't know. Probably a bit of that too.

Yes. Pulling each other’s hair and kicking. Probably about what happened the night before. You never did hear what it was all about. I went on

about every day. Maybe they were tired and cranky from late nights. Got the better of them. I remember they had what they call a shop walker. He used to come around and see that they were working and doing their job and not going out to the toilet. He spent a lot of time talking to them and giving them a good

dressing down when they came out. I suppose that went on most the time I can remember. They were the only things I can remember about those girls. The others that we met were very nice girls. They’d send cards when I eventually left and got married. It was quite exciting to have these

telegrams sent from some of these girls that I got to like there. That part was OK. We never seen the big boss or anything like that. Only saw people that worked on the floor. The bosses were probably in the office somewhere, unless you had reasons to go up there you didn’t really se any of those. I had reason to go later because I wanted to get a bit of leave.

It was a bit hard to get leave too. Even to have a day off. I think that was what these girls were getting into trouble for, they were, what did they call it? Can’t think of the word now. Always having a day off, not turning up to work. They had a bad name.

Five days. We didn’t work Saturday and Sunday. Used to work Monday to Friday. It was good having the weekends off. That was great. Wasn’t too bad when you look back on it now. Probably made too much of it really. The circumstances, the way I went into it probably I was determined I wasn’t going to like it perhaps.

I know I never did like it. Didn't really settle down for it even though I went every day. I wished I was somewhere else but there.

I don't know. Just didn’t fancy they job at all. I

never did settle down to it. I can't remember why. Must have been something about it. I don’t think I liked the travelling. Too far and all that. Probably wished I’d gone into something else and was a bit uneasy about it all because a lot of the girls that I’d know kept leaving and going to other factories to work. I never saw them again

or heard. But whether they did something better than where we was I don't know. That’s how it was with me.

We had benches in front of us. Must have been probably 10 girls along this end down to the other end.

All with a space of their own about this wide, with all your stuff in front of you. You had a little solving iron that you solved these things together, wires and things. Then we screwed things on and put nuts and all that sort of thing on them. There were big lights I can remember

over all. I suppose because you had to see what you were doing. Very big lights everywhere. And a plant of some description going all the time. This was the menfolk. There were also men working there too. They were in another section. That plant they were using seemed to make this very boring noise. I always seemed to have a headache after the

day was over from this plant that was going. Why they call it plants I don't know, it’s just a machine really. That was another part of the factory. It was huge really where we were. The inspectors used to walk behind us and see what we were doing and if it wasn’t being done properly they’d tap you on the shoulder and

bring back something. They must have known who did this and who did that. I can't remember, we probably had a box that we had to put our own things in. That’s how they knew if you hadn't done something right. I know I often got into trouble for not doing something right. That probably had a bit to do with not liking the place

too. I might have been determined I wasn’t going to enjoy it. It was probably my own fault that I didn’t settle into business. I stayed there for a couple of years I think. So Jock tells me.

Boring.

That’s right. Nothing I could have done for a living, dreadful I think. When I say “for a living”, we were getting paid. I think the money wasn’t too bad. I think it was 3 pounds 12 and 6, something like that. No, that wasn’t right. That’s when I did office work. No it would have been 2 pounds something. I can’t quite

remember how much passed 2 pounds. I guess it wasn’t too bad. Wages weren’t good in those days. Men weren’t paid terribly well either. They had to keep a family on that wage. They would have had more money than us I can imagine in their job, whatever they were doing. I’m not sure what they were making. Maybe they

were making the cabinets for the radios or something to do with it. Or putting the bigger thing together perhaps.

No, everyone got the same on the assembly line. The office workers would have got more and the men would have got more. On the assembly line I think it was all the same as far as we could tell. I guess that’s right.

No. Nothing like that.

That would occur today probably. But before that I don’t think so. I can't recall.

When we first went there we had to bundy on. You’ve seen

bundies? Are they still around? You had to bundy on. That was the first thing you did. Then we went and sat down. Then they set all the lights up and everybody started to get their things together and they’d bring these boxes around for us. Put them down in front of us and that was our quota that we had to do for the morning or something like that. If we were a bit slow we

got into a bit of trouble. Sometimes things could go wrong and things wouldn’t work properly and then you couldn’t keep up with your work because you were too busy fixing this one thing that wouldn’t come together. That was a bit frustrating. Then we knocked off for morning tea, which wasn’t bad.

I can’t think whether we had it sitting down on the line. I think we did. I don’t think we had cups of tea or anything like that. Might go out and get a drink of something. Maybe just have a biscuit or something. No tea or anything like that. Other times you had to go out. I don’t think there was a cafeteria there. Maybe there was and we didn’t go to it. Probably we were told it

was no good so we never bothered. I remember going up to the shop for lunch. I can't recall that. All I remember is that we had a break for morning tea about 10 o'clock I think it was. We started early, 7 o'clock. No, quarter to 8. Only a couple of hours. So I can’t really remember too much about it. Only it was noisy.

It was coming from the men’s part where they worked. I don’t think it was noisy on our assembly line because we weren’t doing anything that was making noise. When I look back I suppose we had to have all these lights for all this solving that we did. We had to be head down. I know I had a bit of a stiff neck for quite a while, a few weeks when I first started, cause you had to have your head down like this looking at

the work you were doing. It was pretty hard on the eyes too. Some of those little tiny nuts and things were very tiny in those radios. That’s something I can remember.

[…]

When things went wrong you had to get yourself

out of it. Maybe some of your tools were blunt and that slowed you up. Probably it was me, I didn't feel I could say “this si too blunt, I can’t do the job” or something like that I think come into it. Maybe I was a slow worker too, I’m not sure about that. I know

I wasn’t too interested. That was a part of it too. I know they used to get cranky with me. I think they realised that my heart probably wasn’t in the job and I must have showed it. I don't know. Maybe I did. The other girls told me the same thing. They just hated it.

You just got a dressing down by the woman who was

the supervisor. You’d get a good tongue bashing, show you up in front of everybody. All at you. Wasn’t very nice. That’s probably I don't remember much about it because I don’t want to remember too much about it. I hated it. Probably under the circumstances.

No I hadn't. I had never ever done, in fact I would have liked to have done that sort of thing on the farm perhaps. Dad always did those jobs himself. I would have liked to be able to do those things. You had to learn so quickly. They expected you to go in there and be able to do these things

in a couple of days. I was a bit slow at it.

None. Nothing. I didn’t have to go out before the day I started and size the situation up or get any training at all. You just went there and sat down and they came along and showed us what to do sort of fashion and you were

expected to remember everything that they told you. She probably was a quick talker and didn’t really all sink in at that time he same time. Perhaps if I’d had a little time leading up to it, it would have been easier. I did get the hang of it after a while. This was the first part of it. Even so, when I could do it properly I didn't like it.

Nothing. I can remember a terribly cold place. This big barn. Cold on the feet in the morning, especially in the wintertime. Really cold. This is why these girls were always out in the toilet because there

was a fire out there. If you were sweet with the woman who cleaned the toilets you could stand over there. We weren't in that crowd so we used to get out as quick as, but there was a heater in there. Not a heater, an open fire. There was nothing, I can’t recollect seeing an electric heater or any of those. We did have those things

back in those days. Even though they were the old fashioned things with a couple of bars or something like that. No, it was really cold in the winter and hellishly hot in the summer. These lights were so high and many of them. There was nothing to cool you down. It was really miserable. That’s didn’t

make me happy.

We didn’t have a uniform. We wore a different dress every day. Well, as far as you could. Not every day. We didn’t have a uniform. That was strange too, hadn't thought about that. They didn’t give us uniforms. We wore our own things. Maybe they gave us an apron. I can’t even remember that. Apron to go over our things perhaps.

There were so many people working there I suppose they couldn’t give everyone a uniform even if they did have them. I can't remember a uniform. I think there were factories that had uniforms, maybe they were smaller places than ours was. No uniform.

Sort of in a way we felt that, yes. No one looked after us. You were on your own. I can’t ever remember anyone taking me under their wing and being nice to me or anything like that. Maybe I was too quiet or something.

Some people take dislike to people if they’re quiet. I’ve made up for it since. No one like that. Only the girls that I was friendly with. They were nice.

There was Joan, Mae, Jenny, about 7 or

8 in our little group that we used to sit around with our lunches and all that sort of thing. 2 girls came from Gunnedah, I met up with another one who came there later on. So it was good when she came there too. We had another one to our group.

I don’t think it ever got passed about 6 or 7 girls, something like that. Cause it was huge factory, lots of people there. I suppose you don’t mix with too many people under those circumstances. You only really mixed with people that were on your line close to you. We didn’t know a lot of others that worked there. You’d see them, but we didn’t know that. See them in the bus of a

morning and that type of thing. Might see them in the train, but weren’t close to them. So we did have our little cliques I suppose. Everyone had a clique. That was good that part. We used to go out at night time together. Again, the dances at the weekend. Paddington Town Hall was another place we went to dance. That’d be our

talking point through the week, what we were going to do at the weekend. We were going to go to Paddington Town Hall. A couple of us would meet up there and might go to the pictures with some of them. Going into town was always the big things. Big from Bondi, which was very bright at the time. Going into town was it.

Yeah, looked forward to the weekends. That was good. Then when I came up here later, it was even better because, well it was in one sense, but it wasn’t in another because it took longer to come from Hornsby into town. So I had to get up extra early when I lived here. I think I was getting up around 5 o'clock

because to get in there and get out to Alexandria was a fair hike. So eventually I gave that away and what happened after that? Yes, I had to leave because it got too much for me. I think my nerves started to overtake then and I began to get a bit run down. Then about that time

my sisters, whose husbands had gone overseas, they came down to live at Bondi. I was telling you that people had gone away and left their flats at Bondi so you could get one easily and quite cheap. So they came down and they were living there. Then I left up here and went to live with them. So that was a bit easier again because it wasn’t so far to travel. Things looked up

a bit, even though I enjoyed it up here. It was a lovely life, but it was on the quiet side and Bondi was more a show place. Once we got into the swing of things out there again it was really great. I think I settled down and liked the job a bit better then. That’s probably why I stayed there a bit longer. Jock said I must have stayed there at least 3 years.

Until I met him and then we got married so that’s how I came to be at Bondi twice in my lifetime. First of all when I first came down and then later on this time. Things started to look up then. I really got into it.

No, weren’t allowed. Couldn’t talk to anybody. You weren’t supposed to even talk to the girl next to you. Very strict. Had to have your head down and all that sort of thing. They were very strict. If they saw you talking too much to one opposite you or next to you, that was very frowned on. The only time we saw those men was when we all went

out the door at lunchtime or when we came in. You knew they were there because you could hear them in the distance. You knew they were around. Some of them eventually married some of those fellows. So they must have got to meet them somewhere. I don't know. I never got around. I think there were two fellows that we used to say hello to and have a yarn just coming in the door. Apart form that we

didn’t know them at all.

No. Nothing like that. I don’t ever remember anything happening in that regard. Once or twice I saw a union man

came around and there was a lot of talk going on. We were probably the last to know anything about it. I think it was amongst the men. Didn’t have anything to do with us I don’t think. You just saw them and someone said later they were union men and they’d come about something that had been going on that the men weren’t happy about. Something to do with

probably their workplace things. I’m not too sure about that. Never on strike that I know of in that time. But of course that was three years. Perhaps they daren’t go on strike in those times. Would have been frowned on I’d say. No, everything was quiet there as far as I know.

Don’t think we did. Well, amongst our little group I suppose we did. Yes, there was one girl in our group that, she probably was getting more money than us. She was head of the girls on the assembly line. She was the head girl and if you had something wrong you could go to her

about it. That was her job. None of us ever did, that I can remember anyway, going, but I’m sure there were people that had to go to her a fair bit about things. I can't remember. I know I didn’t and I don’t thin Joan or Mae or any of those did either. Unbeknown

they could have, but I don’t think they did. They must have been pretty happy or we just kept it to ourselves. I’d say that’s what happened. We didn’t complain. We probably thought if we complained we might be in trouble. I think we had that attitude. I’d say that was the answer to that one.

So much for the factory.

No. Don’t remember them coming along to us at all. Could have come to the head girl though, which I don’t remember anyway, her doing that. No, can’t help you there.

She was the supervisor. She was in charge of all of us. She’d come around and pick you up about this, that or the other. Didn't suit her, she’d make you do it all

over again. Bring back the ones that weren’t right and you’d have to put your head down and fix everything up again. There were two other people. They were in the inspectors’ room, which was quite a big place. There were two women and I think there were two men in there. Probably they were in charge of the men and the bad things went there and they

had to come up in front of them. I know it was a big glassed in place. You only saw them moving around, you couldn’t really see too much. It was a fair distance from where we were on the assembly line. Really we didn’t know anything. We just sat there and did our job as best we could.

All together? I’d say a couple of hundred. I think we had about 4 buses probably, used to take us to and fro the station up to Stromberg Carlson. That’s with the men and women. I’d say a couple of hundred. Might have been less, might have been more. Not too sure about that. It was quite a big place. I think we were probably the biggest

factory out there in that road we were in. It was full of factories. I think we were one of the biggest.

We didn’t even know that. I guess it went to, the next place would have been a

place where they stored them. There could have been other parts of the factory that we never went there. It might have been down the other end where they put all that stuff. I didn’t get to see it, so I don't know what they did with it. Maybe in the inspectors’ room, things would go from there when they were perfect to some sorting place. It might have been the mail room

or something there. Yes, I think there was now I come to think of it. There were lots of big places for different things. It was huge. I guess that’s where they went until they were sent overseas to wherever.

Quite a lot. Most these girls I’m telling you about

that came from Gunnedah, they were. A lot of them were married too. They wouldn’t have been called up I don’t think. I think if you were married and had children I don’t think that would have happened to them, but there were quite a few married women there I know that. That was one way of getting away from it. That was

the only way I got away from there, by getting married. You had to have had a pretty good excuse to get out of it. If you were sick or your husband was on leave they gave you leave, I think. I’m not too sure. I guess they would have. They’d have had to I think. When the husbands came home on leave I think the girls would get leave.

The women, the older ones than us. There were about half a dozen of those on our particular line.

Couldn’t tell now. I don’t recall anything about Alexandria. It wasn’t much of a place at all. Pretty awful I think. One of those rough places. Didn't have a good name.

It wouldn’t have been dangerous, but it wasn’t a good area in those days.

Not like it is today. All those places are OK now. There were a lot of rough places in those days. Newtown was a very rough place in the war years.

No, in the train.

No, only just soldiers sitting around waiting for trains to go somewhere with bags and everything on their backs.

I don’t remember much about Alexandria at all.

Yes. They did.

I didn’t really know too many. Only just those in our group. Joan’s father had a shop and that’s why she was called up. I think it was a reasonable shop and they sold groceries as well. She had assistance and she did office work in the shop. Joan was called up like I was. I’m not

sure about how she got there, what her circumstances were. The other one, which I can’t think of the name now, her husband was away in the army and she wanted to do something to get a bit of money, because she hadn’t started a family. She was saving up. So that’s why she went to work there. I think she lived not far

away down the line somewhere. Apart from them I didn’t really get to know many. It was only our little group of 6 or 7 or something. The others I didn’t know.

We’d all rush down to the shop as quick as we could. We only had half an hour I think. We had to stand around and wait for our sandwiches and that’s where we did quite a lot of talking.

One would be waiting for the sandwiches while some of us sat down out the front waiting. We talked then. Then again it was just amongst us, it wasn’t, we used to smile at the other ones and they’d smile back at us, but none of us became friendly with the girls that were away from our bench. I really don’t know much about any of

them.

No, kept on coming through, a lot leaving. A lot leaving to get married, husbands coming home on leave and all that sort of thing. So gradually we started to get to the point that we didn’t know anybody,

but these two girls that were close to me, Joan and Mae, they stayed. They were there when I left I think there were about three left of our old group that were still there when I left the place.

Yes, we did. That’s another one, I’d forgotten about her. She was a little aboriginal girl.

Part aboriginal. I became friendly with her. She was much younger than me. She was only about 17 or 18 or something. I know she got very ill and she got this, what was it, diphtheria was it? She had to go out to this bay, La Perouse. I used to go out there to see her on weekends.

We became very close. She was a nice girl. Her father and mother were very strict with her. Even more strict than our Mum and Dad were. She had a lot of brothers and sisters too. It was quite a big, I think they were called half-casts in those days because they were not the full blooded aboriginal. She was a lovely kid, very interesting. She was in hospital probably

for about a month. She eventually came back to work and I more or less befriended her. She came into our group then too. She was still there when I left. It was much happier later on as everyone got to know each other a bit closer. We got to know the job and we were seniors then, so that was all

more helpful as we got more experience in the job.

No, that’s where this hospital was. It’s the place you go, it’s still there.

If you had something like that, which was catching, you had to be,

Quarantined. So she was in quarantine for a while. I couldn’t see her then, but then they put you out. Maybe I spoke to her behind a glass or something. I can’t remember. It didn’t register

with me how I used to talk to her. Maybe they did let her out, that she was quite as bad or she was over the worst or something like that when I was allowed to go out to see her. Then sometimes one of the other girls would come with us. Might be two of us going.

No. There was no one there

when I went. She was always pleased to see us and hear news from the factory and some of our friends that we were friendly with. I think she used to look forward to our visits. She was a nice little thing. It’s awful I cant’ think of her name.

Much like it is today. Outcast. People didn’t, I don’t think they were friendly towards them. They weren’t friendly towards them in Gunnedah and those places. They had a terrible life. I think they’ve always had a terrible life. I don’t think things have improved as far as I can see. Maybe somehow.

Some that get to be lawyers and actors and actresses and all that sort of thing. I still think they’re being treated pretty harshly. That’s my view anyway.

No, no prejudice. No, I never had that way of feeling about me. Maybe because of my upbringing. Didn't think anyone was,

thought they were above me. That type of feeling perhaps had something to do with it, I don't know. Maybe it did.

La Perouse. That was the main place. I think it still is today. I don't know, I can’t think of any other suburb at all. Actually,

you didn’t see many aboriginals down in Sydney in those days. I can't remember seeing many at all. Maybe in town or somewhere like that, but there were not many.

No, none of them were there. No. That would have been before they came out.

That all happened after the war.

Yes, Greeks. There were a couple of Greek women there, but they kept to themselves. Very quiet people. They were mostly older women than us. They probably had their friends amongst the older women that were working there. No, I didn’t meet any other people like that at all. All Aussies.

Nothing really, only that I got better at my work. I probably settled in a lot better than I did at first. That’s about the only thing that I’d say happened there.

No. There were

better types of things used to come along to us later as we got more proficient at our job. We had, I can't remember what they were, but I do remember that we had to be very careful when we were handling them. Some of those tings were so tiny. Then we were chosen because we were experience at doing it.

To be in charge of that lot. Then I remember this little girl I’m talking about, she had to do the dirty work that we started with. We were moving up the line, but still in the same places. Sometimes they shifted them around for some reason or other. Can’t remember why now. Most the time we usually sat at the same places. I think we did get further up or something like that. That’s just a

blur too. I can't remember much about that.

It wasn’t in its entire thing. It was only pieces to put in radios. All these little wires and things that had to be joined together. That was only a part of the actual radio itself.

No I come to think of it, later on we got to have these bigger types of things that we had to assemble, but I can't remember too much about that either.

No. Never saw one. Although I think I can remember somebody having a Stromberg Carlson and I went to their

house one day “oh, Stromberg Carlson.” It was a big radio. I never ever saw one finished. We were only at the bottom of it all. I don’t think we were thought much of I’d say.

Not much I don’t think. Didn't think it was a proper job probably. To me, I think I always felt it was something temporary. Never getting right to the nitty gritty of it all. I’m not the right person to talk about this factory job.

It was.

We had to keep going. It was so boring. It was so hot in the summer and so cold in the winter. You feet, I remember, I can still feel that cold feet. I think we used to wear double socks or something.

In the wintertime we used to wear a couple of pairs of socks to keep our feet warm. I can't remember having any heating apparatus. Maybe there was where the supervisor was, I’m pretty sure she had something. And they would have had something in the inspectors’ office, but we didn’t have anything.

Yes. I didn’t have anything, but yes, we had a sister there. There was a sister on duty all day. The men seemed to be always going up there to have something fixed up. So I suppose whatever they were doing, I think they had those cross cut saws. Probably cutting timber or something like that. They probably burnt themselves on these big solving things.

They used to pass us and you’d see them going up o the sister. She was in another little room, not very big either. A small room. I might have gone there once. I might have had a burn or something to get bandaged up or put something on it. She always seemed to be busy. She kept on her toes with so many people there.

Probably the first thing we did when we got in was to throw my clothes off and have a shower. Get rid of the factory smell and everything. Then my sisters would have tea ready for me. That was good. I looked forward to that. Then just relaxing for the night

and getting ready for tomorrow. Probably pressing a dress or ironing something for tomorrow and all that sort of stuff. Sitting around playing cards for a while, an hour or two, listening to the radio at the same time. I didn’t go out through the week cause I felt too tired and had to get up so early. Then my sisters used to go

to the pictures as I told you, a couple of times a week. Then I used to mind the kids for them. I used to write letters to different people. That’s all we did. Bondi was such a lovely place in the summertime you could go out and walk around the beach and that was lovely. Just walking around. The only thing was the mosquitoes. That's the only thing I can think that was bad about the place. It was just nice to

go down and walk around and put our feet in the water down there for a while on a hot night. In the wintertime we didn’t do too much of that. As you know, Bondi can be very windy. It was always windy in the wintertime out there. I didn’t like wind so I didn’t go out much at night in the wintertime. Only at that time he weekend to dancing.

We were down in Roscoe Street. You know that one at all?

Oh, that Big Brother, is that where it was?

The first one? My sister thought that’s where it was. I didn’t bother watching it.

Our flats, they weren’t much, Quite cheap. Actually they were in a very handy position though, because if you know Roscoe Street on the beach I believe there’s a garage there now. Is that on the corner? That wasn’t there before. I think a block of flats when to that. We were in the next, number 5 I think we were. But there were

rats and things. I’d never seen one before. Even coming from the bush I hadn't seen a rat. We had this rat on the third floor. I looked out one afternoon and I could see rats running out the back. Turned my up, it was awful. Never ever saw them in the bush. Probably they were what they call bush rats or something. I didn't come across them. They were there.

I took a dislike to those flats after a while, I can tell you. Because of that reason. Apart from that they weren’t too bad. They were nice and airy. We had the windows, we haven’t got one left have we? Yes, there’s one in the lounge room that you open out. You put the window spoke and leans out towards outside.

They were fairly big rooms. We had a first of all we came in the hallway, the first things was the bathroom on the right hand side. You walk down the hall and the lounge room, dining room was all in together. It was just one big open room that was called a lounge/dining room. Then there was a double room that my sisters shared that, had a

double bed. Then there was one little room where this window was that I was in. We didn't have much room, I can tell you. Back in those days people slept two or three in the bed. I didn’t have to cause I had my own. I was a bit lucky there. They slept together. I think they each had a child so they were in there with them. There wouldn’t

have been too much room.

Going down to the beach, taking their little child down to have a swim, this was in the summer. Went around down there, got them tired and brought them home and they had lunch and put them to sleep I suppose and they had a sleep in the afternoon. Then one of my sisters got a job. Where was it?

It wouldn’t have been a milk factory, there’s no such thing as milk factories is there?

Must have been a dairy there somewhere up towards Dover Heights. I guess there was, there was a lot of land there, maybe it was a dairy. I’m pretty sure she said they bottled milk. She went to work there while the other sister then minded

her child. Then sometimes the other one got a job of cleaning out these flats that were going to be let to people. There were a lot of flats there. She used to clean those. That left the older sister to look after the children. There were no day

nurseries or anything like that I don’t think. If there were, they were too expensive for a soldier’s wife. That’s all there was regarding that, cause they couldn’t have a fulltime job. They had no one to mind each others’ children, only just themselves. Mum and Dad weren’t around. They were still in the bush.

Mm. 6 bob a day I think, something like that. Wasn’t much, was it, at the end of the week.

They were very good at writing. I think they got a letter every week. Probably didn’t when things were going tough, but mostly every week or two they'd get a letter.

They were always censored. They couldn’t tell their husbands too much and the husbands couldn’t tell them too much. They used to show me the letters, or part of them, where there was a bulk cut out or a red line was gone through so as no one could see what the information was that was coming out.

One was in New Guinea and the other one was only in Western Australia, which wasn’t fair because after the war it wasn’t his fault. He wasn’t sent away from Australia. He couldn’t get any of these, like the cards, you know about these gold cards and things most the old diggers have today. He couldn’t get one of those.

He’s since passed on and got nothing at all, which I thought was just not right. The other one, he was in New Guinea. Jock met up with him one time. He might have been in Borneo or somewhere like that. What was the question again?

It was pretty awful when they were over in the islands because the Japs were there. That was about the time I met Jock. I think Jock met up with Bernie, who was one of my brothers-in-law, they were in the islands somewhere. I’d written to Bernie and told

him and I wrote to Jock and they made it that they saw each other in New Guinea I think it was. No, it wasn’t New Guinea, cause Jock didn’t go to New Guinea. He was in Borneo, or was it Papua? No, Pap something or other. Papua. That’s where he was stationed most of the time.

Yes, I’d met him.

I’d met him when I was still at Waitara. I’d gone to a dance this Saturday night and he was home on leave. I hadn't met him before because I didn't know many of that ilk. I think I told you he used to go to these catholic dances pre war that I now was involved with.

I met him this night and I had a couple of dances with him and he walked me home. It was on from then. I started writing to him and he was just home on leave from Western Australia. He had been over there in the armoured division. Then they were looking for a place to send them and the armoured division became a part of the 9th division

when the 9th division came back. Then we wrote to each other and he went to Tamworth and through Gunnedah and all those places. Started off I think at Singleton and in camp at Singleton. Then followed that line up the Hunter Valley and up through the north and northwest and then came back again. And after about

6 or 8 months we decided to get married. So we got married and he was at Bathurst at that time. He’d come back down west to Bathurst. So I went to Bathurst. My sister came with me and Jock’s mother. They were the witnesses at the marriage. We were married in the, we couldn’t

get married in front of the alter, they had the beautiful church there, the cathedral, because Jock wasn’t a catholic. They were so strict in those days about that sort of thing. So I couldn’t get married in front of the altar so we had to be married in the presbytery which was where the Bishop lived. That was a come down I can tell you, for me, because always in the church. Mum and Dad weren’t too happy about

that when I wrote and told them. I wanted to marry him and he wanted to marry me. So that was that. He did have lessons. When I say “lessons”, he went to see this old, what do they call them in the army? The padre? Padre I think. He was catholic and Jock didn’t like him. He hated him,

so Jock didn’t do the right thing. To marry me he had to promise that he’d bring the children up in the Catholic Church. Otherwise we couldn’t get married. So Jock promised he’d do all these things and got away from this padre that he hated. He said

he wasn’t going back for any more lessons. That was it. We had his mother as a witness and my sister was the other witness. No bridesmaids, no anybody. That’s all it was

because my friends, one of them were in the air force, the other one was in the army and the rest of my girlfriends then were at Stromberg Carlson.

Not much at all. Was mostly all through letters. So I used to probably write 4 or 5 letters a week. He wrote a lot back to me too, especially when he was in Western Australia, he had more time over there

when he was in the tanks. I don't know what they did through the day, but evidently they had a lot of time on their hands. When he went up around Bathurst and they used to go out on bivouacs and things, that’s what they call it in those days when they go traipsing around the countryside. They were kept pretty busy up that way, so I didn't hear too much then.

Before we got married he was at Bathurst. I don’t think he could get leave. I’m not too sure of the story. I must ask him after. His mates got him into Bathurst. He was out at a place called, what’s the name?

It’s about 4 or 5 miles out of Bathurst, this side of Bathurst. They used to smuggle his kitbag into the hotel where we were going to spend the first night of our honeymoon there. I think he had two days leave. I think that was about the longest they got in those days.

It was through his good mates that he was able to get himself in there that night for the wedding, which was great. I don't know what would have happened had they not been able to smuggle things in and got Jock on the way. That’s how good they are in the army, the mates. They stick to each other.

His clothes that he was going to wear that night. I suppose his toiletries and things for

the hotel. Should have mentioned it to him when I was out there. Just didn’t come to me at that time.

Yeah, it’s probably different.

It all started when I was still living

with the Hudsons in Balmoral Street. We used to go Saturdays when he came down we went to the football. He loved the football in those days. And he took me to the cricket. I’d never been to a cricket test match before. Not test, some game of cricket. Tests didn’t start till after the war was over. I know a lot of football because I’d never really

known anything about football. He thought I was going to enjoy it so much. I had to make out I did. I didn’t know the first thing about it. I thought it was pretty boring. He thought it was great taking me to the football, so that was one thing we did. Went to the pictures, into town, up to Hornsby to the pictures, then to the dances again.

That’s the main thing we did. When he did have a couple of days we used to go on a picnic with his mother and father and his sister and her husband. He was in the air force and was based down at Bradfield Park in Lindfield. So he didn’t have far to come. Someone had a car, don’t ask me who it was. We must have gone round in the car then.

I didn't see him much at all. Mostly it was letter writing our courtship went.

I think I proposed to him actually.

I can’t think. I’ll have to get him out here and ask him. He might be the best person to ask.

No.

It was person to person. He was home on leave. He was a very quiet man, still is. Didn’t have much to say. How he courted me I don't know. How we even got together, how he had enough courage to come and ask me to dance and then bring me home that night, it was extraordinary really. It’s there somewhere.

it doesn’t always appear to come out. But if the tapes goes on a bit longer we’ll go out and ask him. I’m pretty sure that’s what happened. I think it was always intended we would get married. I probably hurried it up and could see in the distance more so than Jock could that it would happen, what we were going to do and all the rest of it.

I think women have this intuition and want to plan a little more than he was going to perhaps. I don't know. I think that’s it.

Yeah, seeing him had a lot to do with it I guess too that made me uneasy in the finish. I think so.

That was one reason for getting away, the marriage. I had a certificate you see, to say that I was getting married. I think they gave me, I don't know how much leave. Maybe a month. Something like that. Three weeks, maybe. Cause he was going away. We always knew that he was, as soon as we got married, that it

probably wouldn’t be long after that they’d go overseas. So that’s one of the reasons for getting married then too. It wasn’t that we had to or anything like that, cause we didn’t have a baby till three or four years later. I guess that had something to do with it. He didn’t like the sound of the factory any more than I liked it. What I used to tell him about it.

It was no loss leaving that place. Once I got away from there it was good. It was clear sailing after that. I was all happy.

Yes. I went up by train. Jocks mother and my sister came.

Then we went along and looked at the hotel where we were going to stay the night and went to the photographer to have our photos taken and all that arranged for later on. I think it was about 6 o'clock that the Bishop was going to marry us. Or 6:30. Must have been a Friday night because the shops were open in Bathurst and I think it was Friday nights. He had two days

leave, that’s all they gave him. Do you want me to tell this business that Jock’s just told you? Is that what you mean?

We didn't go anywhere, only back to the hotel. This was the two nights we went there. The next morning we came down for breakfast and we met this lovely old couple. He had been a retired navy

man and they had a car and they asked us would we like to go out for a drive. Sweet of them. They took us out for a drive the next day. When we came back from the drive that night, at tea, they told everybody that we’d been married and talk about being embarrassed when they toasted us and had

nice things to say. We’d never seen them in our life before. So that was a bit embarrassing. That night we had a honeymoon that night again and the next day I think we might have gone out with them again I think for another drive somewhere. That was good. Then he had to go back that night. So as

he was telling Chris out there a while ago, they said to him when he got back to camp, might have gone passed the hotel or something and they said “why don’t you go and see your wife?” He was really on AWL. He won’t get into trouble now. I think it’s quite safe to talk about. So some of them put his

gear on his back, his knapsack or something, and one got something else. They all rallied around and he got into town without being seen. They’d been on a bivouac this day and he could have been picked up by the police, MP [Military Police] or whatever they call them. When he came in he was filthy dirty and the first thing he had to do was have a shower. So that’s how I saw him

the third night on our honeymoon. That’s all we had. He went away again, off on these bivouacs. I was just left at the hotel for the next week. The old couple were so nice to me. They looked after me and made it more comfortable, which was good, because it was terribly hot. No air condition in those days either

even though it was at the hotel. It was very hot. Then I came back to Sydney and Jock stayed at Bathurst for a little bit longer, not very long. Then he wrote and told me that he couldn’t tell me the exact words, but I knew what he said in the letter that this was it.

They were going. But he couldn’t tell me what time, whereabouts or anything else. Just said, “I’ll see you back at Bondi on such and such a day.” So that’s all. There were no phones in those days. They had those old rattle traps on the wall, but everyone didn’t have a phone on. We didn’t. You could get a message through

flats if you really wanted to. I think probably he rang and left a message there for them to give to me and told me exactly where to go and what time he’d be leaving and all the rest of it. Then he goes off to the islands and I didn’t see him for over a year, maybe close to two years. Something like that. He was

away a long time. It was all done mostly by correspondence our romance. So I didn’t really know much about him in a way. Only through letters. I did meet his Mum and Dad a lot. Lovely family. They brought me up to scratch with what happened in his young life cause they were very good talkers. So that was good, knowing all that.

I learned more from them than I did from Jock I think. Then I used to, what happened then? I got away from the factory then. I had to find something else to do too. Then I finished off this business course that I’d started. It was in town somewhere, George Street, one of those places. They used to teach typing

and shorthand. I wasn’t too bad at the typing, but I was no good at the shorthand. I couldn’t pick that up at all. That was a dead loss. So I finished and then I got to meet Jock’s uncle who was, no it wasn’t his uncle, I think it was his cousin, first cousin of his father, so let’s say he was a second cousin. His name was Southam

too. I think Jock said to Chris yesterday that he used to make fishing rods. He had records for marlin fishing and all that. I went down and worked in his office until Jock came out of the army.

I didn’t go back. That was my way out. That was the best thing that ever happened to me. So I never went back there again.

Yes. I had to have something from the army I suppose. Probably in writing from Jock’s superiors or something like that.

Or maybe it was a JP [Justice of the Peace]. I’m not too sure. I’ve gotta ask him. From then on it was just writing letters for all this time after we were married. There were plenty of us. There were plenty of women without husbands. The girls still there and their boys were still away and so there were three of us then with

husbands away. Keith was in Western Australia.

I was still with them. When Jock came back we got a flat out there adjoining by sisters’. We were all in the one block, very big block of flats.

That’s where I first saw the rat. That was all part of the army as far as I know. It was just that little bit back in Bathurst was quite a thing. They all laugh today about it. They always say to me when I meet them, not many of them left. They say “remember the time we got jock back into Bathurst

to see you that night?” That was the start of it all.

To go straight away. It happened quite a bit. A lot of them never saw their husbands again. Terrible. I was one

of the lucky ones. He came back safe and sound. I’ll never forget the day they came home. I’m not sure whether he could tell me too much in the letter or not, I don’t think he could. I know his Mum and I went out to Camperdown I think. In those days there was plenty of land. It was either

Camperdown, it wasn’t Campbelltown, too far, it must have been near Camperdown. No, it’s not that. It was Marrickville showground. I know there was a lot of land and that’s where all the buses came. I know his mother and I were out there waiting and saw all these buses come by and we were looking for

his patch that he had on his arm up here on the pocket. It’s on the tunic, the army coat, they were called tunic. There was a patch there and that’s what we looked for, the colour. Because it would have been up on a flag and we finally found that bus and couldn’t get there quick enough

to greet him, his Mum and I, both in tears, crying and laughing. It was a very happy day for everybody. Really big scene out there. So many buses from all the different battalions and. They must have been all on this big ship when they came home. Jock has told me the name of it, but I can’t think of it. I’d say there would have been a lot of men got

picked up from different islands and they brought them all back on that particular day. That’s how it was done anyway. We all met at the big showground. I can’t think of what else it might have been, it was a big place. Lots and lots of buses all over the place. Whether they took us back into town. I think we were able to, or whether mother and I

went back in. Maybe we did. No, I have an idea they let the husbands all come and I think we must have got a bus. There were probably special buses there lined up to take us back into the nearest station, into the city or something like that. Can’t remember much. It’s a bit of a blur really. Great day though.

That would have been in, when did the war end? ’44? ’42 I think.

Yeah, that’s right, because we were married in ’44. He must have been away for a year. Something like that. The old mind can’t think back all those little incidentals. Dates and things.

The boys I don’t think were there. They hadn't come back. I’d either come out to the Hudsons

or I’d come to Jock’s mother and father. I don't know. I’d stayed the night somewhere and was coming home through the city and it must have been broadcast. They must have had amplifiers. As I’m walking down passed Wynyard and getting close to Martin Place there were amplifiers and people shouting out. You could hear all this commotion, they’re all singing out

“the war’s over, the war’s finished” and all this. So I couldn’t get back out to Bondi quick enough. My sisters had heard it on the radio anyway and I was still coming home then. They were going mad and at Martin Place they were dancing. Really going crazy. Everyone was talking and shouting. It was a day you never forget. It was a wonderful day. I don't know what we did that night.

We probably did something when we all joined up together. I don’t think the boys were home, but maybe they had been and were camped somewhere. I’m not too sure about that. A big occasion. It was the start of our life together when he came home.

It wasn’t all clear sailing then. He still had to go back for something. He was probably home for a couple of days and he had to go back somewhere else, I can’t think where. He had to go back to the hospital out at Hearne Bay or somewhere out south. I’ve

never heard of it since I don’t think. It was a suburb and they probably made another name. I don't know where it is. Down south somewhere. He had to see the doctor and he had a hernia. I think he thought this was the time to have that done. So he went out to Hearne Bay and his mother and I used to go down to see him. I know his mates used to come down

at night time. I only ever went once and that must have been one of his mates come and took me or something. I can't remember too much about that. He was in hospital for about 2 or 3 weeks back in those days. That was another separation before we settled down to married life. Then we got this flat out there with the girls then. Then we started off. Jock went back to working at

the Carlton Mill.

Lots.

It’s happening now more so than then. When he was in Western Australia he had what they call today, it was called Jaundice. That’s

the old thing they get now some of them with AIDS [Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome]. They start off with that disease. It’s another name now. I can’t think of it.

No. What does this AIDS thing start with? Dear.

Hepatitis. That was the start of all his troubles with his, I think,

diabetes too. Then he could never trace it back to being in the army. He used to go before the tribunals and all this. The doctors would always come up with something “no, it didn’t happen in the army. Had nothing to do with it. Yellow jaundice and diabetes” yet they find now later on

that it did have something to do with it. He’s just been granted a pension now after 60 odd years. He suffered, he’s had heart trouble for many years. Had a triply bypass and since he’s had different things done to the heart, what they call,

they put little things in now.

He did, yes. Very withdrawn. A lot of them did, to this day I suppose.

You heard him say yesterday “soldiers don’t talk about war” or something, but I know some do. I think most his mates keep it bottled up inside them. They don’t discuss it with their wives or anything. I’m still learning things daily about different things that happened that he’s never told me before. So it’s taken a long time for it. And it hasn’t all come out yet.

I’ve probably heard more from the mates when they ring up. We’ll be talking about something and they’ll get on “I don’t know if Jock’s told you this that and the other” and I say “no. Didn't know a thing about it.” So I guess that’s just Jock. They’re not all like that.

Yeah it was. Probably you’re so excited

and romanced, getting married and starting a family and all this sort of thing. You probably didn’t think too much about it. I don’t think I did, really. So we were left putting the head in the sands and just going. Fortunately I’m not a worrier, I let things sail over my head. I’m probably lucky that way that I’ve been like that. No, we didn’t hear too much about it. The kids,

I think the boys now today, especially Michael that lives so close, is probably learning more about the war in the last few years than he’s ever learned all his life. They didn’t hear anything when they were young. He does tell them certain things now. “Didn't you know that? Haven’t I told you this?” I suppose with age he’s wanting to,

I think he’s trying to tell them things now. Age is catching up and time is catching up with it. So we want to get it all down on pad if we can before it’s too late. It’s been pretty good on the whole. We haven’t had much money, but we’ve been very happy so that’s the main thing I think. He’s been a very good husband.

Didn't have much money to begin with, but it’s always been the family first. So I guess that’s all a part of his upbringing. His father was the same I guess, so that’s where that comes in.

No, I don’t think so. It wasn’t to do with Jock, it was me actually.

We were married. I could have fallen pregnant straight away. But we didn’t have Jill until 1946. We were married in 44. I think it was with me. I didn’t do too badly. I couldn’t fall straight away, I ended up with 4 of them. No, there was nothing like that. He was quite good until he

got the diabetes. Then things started to go downhill. Pretty horrid time I can tell you. A great shock when he went to the doctor and was told. We knew, his mother was very close to an old lady who lived in her street at Waitara that had diabetes and she used to see what happened to her. But even Jock and I, we’ve never

really come in contact with anybody before and didn’t know anything about it. It was a real shock and it was hard to cope with for me especially. Jock took the news before he would even admit that he had diabetes. Some of the doctors have told me that a lot of people don’t admit they’ve got it and try to rock their way out of it

I suppose. Unfortunately it doesn’t go like that. It’s really a very nasty thing. He was 40 and we’d already had Jill, Bob and Michael. But we did have our youngest one and I was 39, I was 40 when I had Rick. He’s the one who lives in Coffs Harbour. So we were lucky to have him I think. Things

got pretty desperate at that stage. I always think we’re lucky to have the last one.

When it first happened everything was very gay and jolly. But then

everyone had to settle back down and go back to work and then it was a different scene altogether. Then there were the very ill men. That was dreadful. You’ve heard of Uralla and all those places where they had to go to when they had these very bad injuries. That’s very sad for those women and families that had their husbands come home. Especially the prisoners of war. That was really

devastating for a lot of families. Quite a few around Kingsford that had sons prisoners of war. Quite a few, actually there was one on Jock’s street. The mother was very friendly with this boy’s mother. That was very, seemed to be years and years that he was away, but he finally got home and wasn’t too bad. He was probably one of the lucky ones.

Everyone seemed to know someone that lost someone and that was a sad time. An awful time. There was also the excitement of them coming home. That was another thing. For us it was wonderful. We were one of the lucky ones. Jock’s brother came home safe and sound. He was in the air force.

That was good for his mother. It must have been a very worrying time for her when they were away. I think I told you we ended up marrying brothers, me and my younger sister. She married Jock’s brother who was in the air force. By the way, while Jock was away overseas, Morris was very good to me. He was stationed mostly around South Australia.

I’ve forgotten the name of the place now. He used to take me to dances. That was good. As well as having other people to go with. That was a good time. Although it was a worry having Jock away, it was nice to have someone else come along on leave and tell us a little more about what was going on. He used to fly planes to New Guinea and back.

He was a navigator. That part was nice. After the war things slowly settled down. People got back to work and I think people managed as best they could. We were lucky.

They both came home. They were right.

The one that was in Western Australia, he was OK. I think I was telling Chris that they didn’t recognise those guys that didn’t leave Australia. It was terrible I think. You’ve probably heard many a tale from the veterans have you? They’ll all tell a story about that. Lots of things weren’t fair in the war and that certainly

wasn’t.

Just the everyday things like the family. Things that occurred in and around the house and all that. Nothing much about the war. Is that what you mean? No. Not too much. He might just mention what Bob used to say, one of his mates, or Tony

used to say or something like that. Not too much of it. Very little.

Didn't happen straight away. It probably

went on for another 6 months or something like that. Then it slowly all disappeared. I can't remember too much about it. I think that’s probably what happened. It more or less drifted away. The coupons ended and it just went out. It’s funny how you don’t think about it, isn’t it? About how it happened and all that.

Should have sat down very seriously and contemplated all that.

Changed after. Yeah. Then it was just back to drib drab work. Everyone’s back to work and you got babies and all the work really started then.

Didn't know what hit you when you had your first child. I didn’t anyway. A big jump in your household. Certainly was. It was on for every young and old as they say. She was a little monkey. She took up a lot of our time. Jock used to walk around with her out at Bondi and push her around in the pram try

and get her tired out to come home and sleep. He was wonderful with her. Just adored pushing the pram around. That’s when things happened like that to the men, when they came home, the older men like Jock’s father and my father, probably would never have pushed a pram around in their lives. Yet these young fellows came home from the war and they got straight into it, pushing the prams around Bondi.

Everything changed like that too. It was funny. I guess that’s when, what do they call the new man these days? It all started to happen a bit like that then. The husbands back in those days were all the breadwinners and the mothers did everything else, didn’t they? Mostly anyway.

Except my father who used to do little extraordinary things, as I’ve told you. Getting up at night and all this. There were 5 of us so he was kept busy at night, I can tell you. There was always someone sick or something like that. Had to get up early the next morning. Jock was very good with Jill. We used to take it in turns actually with her waking. He’d get up and bring the baby to me and I’d feed her and

put her back. Then if she woke the next time Jock would get up. That’s how we did it, night after night.

Yeah. He was very good. Marvellous like that with the children. Always has been very good with the children. The boys can tell you tales of what they did together and all that. Very good to Jill too. Marvellous. He just adored that baby.

I think that was a change for him too, to have his own child, I think was, he was a boy when he went away and then just grew up overnight when the war ended and then came back and he was a family man then. When you look back on it, like at my age, it all seems such a long time ago. Even the memory of all that happened.

You do remember those little things that happened in our early life together. Really great. We didn’t have much money, but we were very happy. So we managed to scrape through ever since, so it couldn’t have been that bad.

He was able to get, that’s where he worked with his cousin down at

Lane Cove, that’s where I went to work. Then he went straight back there as soon as he got these other things off his chest like going into hospital and other things that he had to get settled before he went. He was probably home about 2 or 3 months. Maybe it was even shorter than that. Something along those lines. He had to go to hospital so I think it would have been close to

three months. Then he went back to work and we were all living in Bondi then. So he did the trek then, down the line to St James’ station to get the, I think he might have got a tram to, no I think he would have gone down to the Quay. Chris was asking me before, “what were the wicked spots

around Sydney?” The Rocks was one of them. Actually I used to go down that way too, when I went out to Bill to work when I was still at Bondi. I used to get the tram down there somewhere to go to Lane Cove, which I quite enjoyed. I always liked the trams, they were great fun. I hope they’ll bring them back again.

Too late now. Only cars, I think.

Don’t think so. Made me

grow up I suppose. No, I don’t think so. I would have had to I guess, in a way. I saw a lot of things that I’d never come across before, especially with this other type of women. These girls that were always out with the Yanks until early hours of the morning. I never come across that in all my life. So we didn’t know how to talk to them because,

I don't know whether it was us half a dozen girls, we hadn't come across them any of us before either. We all felt the same. Whether it was the trouble with us, maybe with them. I don't know. Maybe a bit on both sides. Maybe, I don't know. That's how it was.

We’d probably say “didn’t like that. I hated that idea” we hated going to the factory and all this sort of talk.

“Yes, weren't they terrible days? Oh dear.” None of them liked it, they all hated the place. People would ask us “where do you work?” and we’d say “munitions factory.” Others would sometimes say “don’t talk about that place, Mary.” So that’s how we talked

about it I suppose. Didn't want to know too much about it and didn’t want anyone else to know too much about it either. So we were all in the same boat I think. None of us like it. None of us could honestly say that we enjoyed the experience or anything like that. Maybe we were snobs in a funny way. Maybe it had a bit to do with us and our upbringing. Could have been.

I don't know. Maybe there was a little bit of that. The old Catholic. I don’t think I told you, but my grandma, is that of any interest at all? Irish lady, this grandma of mine. She wouldn’t let us even talk to, there was one boy in particular. He was killed in the war. His mother, she was a lovely

woman and we knew these kids in a sort of a fashion. They lived a little bit further from us in the bush. We weren’t allowed to talk to them or do anything with them because they were non-Catholics. So when you think about that, things certainly changed after the war, all those things. We weren’t the only ones. There would have been lots of people like us and vice versa in the other religions

I guess. That’s where a big change happened, I think. She was such a nice woman. Later on, when her son was still away, I think I was very lucky that she came to see us at the flats when Jill was only a baby. She came there and she’d already lost one son. She was the loveliest woman. She used to give me hints on how to bring the baby up and

all this sort of thing. I used to think “how could my grandma have done that to us?” Maybe that all had a bearing on the way we thought of other people later on in life, I don't know. That’s just I had a funny feeling it could have been. She wouldn’t let us do anything, we couldn’t even sow or knit or anything like that on a Sunday. No laborious

work. What laborious there was about knitting or sowing something up. But in her eyes that was laborious work. We couldn’t do that on a Sunday. That’s how tough she was. Very narrow minded.

You mean about the war or overall? What I’ve told you about. It certainly brought a lot of memories back that I suppose I had stored back in my mind somewhere. It’s been good to bring that out and think about it again. I mightn’t have

so many sleepless…