Australians at War Film Archive

Oh yeah. Well I was born on the 11th of the 11th 1922 in a little town called Gilgandra

and we stayed at Gilgandra for a couple of years and then moved to, I think the first place we lived in was Glebe. My father was a rabbiter and he was out in the country area chasing rabbits and my mother was employed in cafes and thing along

Glebe Road and of course we found it very difficult. I was the eleventh of 12 – 3 girls, 3 boys, 3 girls and 3 boys. I was the second youngest and because mother had a hell of a battle to keep things going so she put us in

an orphanage at Narellan. St Joseph’s Orphanage at Narellan and I can’t remember how long we were there but it was some time. Then she took us out of there again and we moved from Glebe I think to Ultimo. Jones Street Ultimo. Then we moved to Forest Lodge and then we moved to Newtown

and we stayed at Newtown. I forget how old I was when we went there and there I suffered infantile paralysis. I’ll never forget she was going to take me to the Prince Alfred Hospital and she got a pram from somewhere

and dumped me in the pram and I was screaming my head off because I wanted an ambulance. I didn’t want to go to hospital in a pram because all the kids would tease me. On that particular day, I was lucky. I struck some doctor who was at the hospital and he made me stand up straight against the wall and walk towards him and

where I was taken to hospital crippled that day, I walked out of the hospital thanks to that doctor whoever he was. Then we moved to O’Connell Street, Newton. That was from Albert Street, the first one that we moved to O’Connell Street. Ernie McQuillan’s gymnasium was

a few doors up and St Joseph’s Church at Newtown had a gymnasium under their church and I started to go to the gymnasium at St Joseph’s and started boxing there. Then I was 10 years of age, Ernie McQuillan had boxing tournaments on most nights of the week and I

fought there when I was 10 years of age and then we moved to another street, Longdown Street and then we moved right down the other end of Newton to Albert Street. I think the landlord must have been chasing us all the time. I started work when I was 14. I worked at the Panels and Veneers

at Rosebery and I used to walk over there and back each day. Panel and Veneers. I must have been there 12 months, 18 months. I had various other positions then I finished up with Ernie McQuillan when I was 17, I was fighting at Sydney Stadium

and Parramatta Stadium. I was working at Herman Plastic Mouldings, HPM, at Darlinghurst at that time. Then I turned 18 in November and in the March – I had applied to the navy, to

join the Australian Navy and they sent me a letter to ask me to sit for an examination at Rushcutter’s Bay on 11 March 1941. I went down there and sat for the examination and they said, “You failed.” It was only Dictation and English and

Mathematics. I don’t know how I failed. So I walked from there to Victoria Barracks and down to Moore Park Barracks behind it and signed up there that day with the Darwin Infantry Battalion. That afternoon they put me on a bus and took me over to North Head and issued us with equipment and bedding and such.

The next day they gave us 4 hours leave to go home because we were leaving that night they told us. I went home to Newtown and saw my wife, who was my girlfriend then and my mother and I got back to North Head Barracks within the 4 hours anyhow. That night they marched us down to Central

Railway Station and put us on a train and we went off to Melbourne, Adelaide and a small town up from Adelaide, we were there 7 days. I can’t remember the name of the town name. I think it was Terowie or something. I don’t know if that was in Queensland. We were held up

in front because the Northern Territory was flooded so there was about 7 days at this little town in South Australia. Then we moved up to – got a run on and got to Alice Springs and I don’t know how, there only 1 or 2 days. We went on to Barrett Creek and

we were there a couple of weeks at Barrett Creek. All that was there was a hotel and a police station and we were camped about two miles away from there. We used to go down of an evening and have a meal there at the hotel. The river was that dry at that time we had a boxing night whilst we were at Barrett Creek and we fought in the

bottom of the riverbed. We set the ring up there. It was some warrant officer. I forget his name now but he was the one who organised the boxing. So we went on to Darwin Infantry Battalion at Parap. Silver City as they used to call it because it was all tin huts.

I was in Don Company at that time and a chappie came round from the signal platoon and was looking for people who wanted to train as signallers. I and one my friends Vicky Bennett volunteered to go over to the sig platoon. We became sigs and

sat for our signal examination. By that time we were only getting 5 bob a day which was £3.10 a fortnight in the infantry platoon but in the sig platoon we got £4.08 or 18 a day. Got an

increase in wage anyway. They put it up because it was the sig specialist. Then one of my friends was Darcy Armstrong. He was there. He was a motorcycle rider and I started riding a motorcycle and I became the dispatch rider which they called then motorcycle orderly.

From there we went down to 29 Mile after the bombing of Darwin. That’s right. When they bombed Darwin they put us out between the aerodrome and the water. I think it was to act as a buffer against any Japanese landings. To keep the aerodrome safe.

It was a bit of a hectic day the day they first bombed. It was quite a surprise. Then we went to the 29 Mile and finally they sent us home on leave and they had us camped out at Narellan and after

the leave we went to Narellan then they took us up to Gan Gan near Nelson’s Bay. We did the beach landings with an American unit there. They called it JOOTS. Joint Overseas Operational Training Station. That was the barges and then the boats without the drop front.

Used to land on the beach and as the American officers used to say, “Hold onto the bar and hang on momentarily when you jump over the side.” We also did the barges that had the drop front on them. So we did all those landings and training and then we went to Queensland and we were at

a little place called Gordonvale. It was 14 miles south of Cairns and the American paratroops were on one side of the town and we were on the other side of town so they must have a gutful of all the servicemen by that time in the town. It was there that I applied for leave to come home and be married.

It came up the Saturday before I was to be married and the leave hadn’t been granted so I happened to catch a train south. It was a troop train going to Brisbane. I went to Brisbane and marched in with all the other soldiers of the camp. Had a meal and bedding and

the next day we got up and I was lined up with the others to go on a train south to Sydney. Went south to Sydney and jumped off out near Hornsby and caught an electric train from there. Got home and got married the following Saturday and kept saying I would go back next

Sunday. When Sunday came, I’d leave it till Monday so that happened for about 3 weeks and I told my wife “I’d have to go.” I went to the showground and there was one of our ex-officers in charge out there. I went to him and told him I’d been AWOL [Absent Without Leave] and wanted to catch

up with the unit because they were in the islands. He told me I was supposed to go to the Military Police but then he put me under open arrest and told me nobody would know about it. So I went and got on a train. They put me on a train then up to Queensland and I went to some camp. I can’t remember it now.

I think it was out from Rockhampton. It was a staging camp anyhow and I took myself under my own steam all the way but that time I had my name and that on the roll. The only thing I wasn’t doing was getting paid. Then I got on a boat to

New Guinea and then they flew me over to somewhere near Nadzab way somewhere I think. Oh no that was Oro Bay. I went on a ship round to Gona and they got off at Gona and I caught up with the battalion at Cape Killerton and then it came up Christmas time and the court martial was held. I was sentenced to

60 days field punishment instead of a prison sentence. At the field punishment centre we wired ourselves in and fortunately we did go. The 36th Battalion was near us. We used to go to the pictures there at night at the 36th Battalion and then go back and lock ourselves up in the tent.

Then they got us on an old, old ship, Francis Parker, and they sent us over to New Britain. Jacquinot Bay and then from Jacquinot Bay we went up to Wide Bay somewhere. Then we got off there and we were there with the

14/32nd I think was a Victorian Battalion and the 2/14th Artillery and right on the other side of the island was Open Bay they call it over there. It was the poor darn 36th Battalion all by themselves. No support, no artillery or anything. They were just stuck on the beach over the other side of the island and we were

on the bottom side. Then we moved against the Japanese right up. I can’t remember the river’s name. We took different positions and then pushed the Japanese back quite a way. Then the 16th Battalion from Western Australia came and relieved us and

said, “We’re going home.” but we went to Headquarters which was at Jacquinot Bay they were at. They were short of operators in the signal platoon. I was nominated for that one and I got

left off the boat. When it went though it sailed off to Sydney to Australia and I remained with the Brigade Headquarters as a signaller. Mainly a switch operator and then finally I got away and got back on leave.

We went to Narellan, back to Narellan. After we all got together again we went up to Queensland. Some little town not far from Brisbane. We did our training again and then we

were on our way to go overseas again and peace came. That was the bit of service except when we were at Cape Killerton there was a boxing tournament

at Oro Bay and it was organised by a Joe E Brown, an American Comedian who was a wonderful fellow. He organised a big boxing tournament and he got a number of American film actors and actresses to donate medals for the championships

and I was fortunate enough to win the Middleweight championship which was a medal donated by Greer Garson. I wrote to Greer Garson and she answered me, wrote back. She congratulated me and then after that they used to have me appear. Make appearances down at the ring at

the Oro Bay Stadium. They had another singer there. Lennie Ross. He often used to pick me up in the jeep to take me down there to referee different fights. It was fortunate for me. I was very lucky that he used to be able to sing songs for me as we were going along. He’d sing a song for me.

Our own colonel when he wasn’t using his jeep on occasions when I was stuck for a ride down he’d supply me with his vehicle to go to the stadium. I was a very lucky fellow being so well looked after.

I joined the Police Force and that stopped the fighting

because the Americans wanted me to go to America and fight in America and I got discharged on 22 November and in January I think it was I joined the Police Force. I was stationed at Newtown and

I was fortunate. I was lucky with a couple of enquiries I did so they put me into plain clothes. I was working with the detectives at Newtown in plain clothes and then I went to Mosman with another detective Jack Whitfield and I was his offsider at Mosman for quite a long time.

Somehow or other I became a drunkard because I was drinking beer from when I was in – it started off when I was in Darwin and I was an out and out drunkard so they reverted me to uniform and I went to Redfern. Then a country

trip came up at a one man station in Bonalbo. I went out there. It was a one man station with my wife and eldest son. I was still grogging on all the time. I started a boxing and gymnastic club for the children of the

town and we used to have the vaulting horse out in the main street and we’d have the kids doing exercise there to show their parents what they were capable of doing. Then I resigned from the Police Force because I was such a drunkard and I went back and I thought I’d go into the army again. So I rejoined

the army and joined the Military Police. Once again at Moore Park. It was the same place I joined up before. I did a course in Melbourne and I was fortunate again. The officer in the charge of the school, I forget his name. He was the

Provost Marshal of Victoria. He had me transferred to Melbourne each year to an instructor on the schools. The Military Police Schools. I was promoted up to sergeant and then

they sent me on a long plane trip from here to Singapore to Tokyo and I finished up in Korea at Vietnam and I was in charge of the Commonwealth contingent of the Military Police in Inchon in Korea and

I stayed there for a while then I came back to Australia and I was still drinking, drinking, drinking. Late at night everybody else would leave the mess and I’d keep on drinking so I applied for a discharge from the army before I got thrown out. So I served another 10 years. I served

10 years. It was 5 years during the war days in the army and then I was 10 years later on in the peacetime. So I made this application because of my drunken state and they accepted it and discharged me after 10 years.

From then I went and became an Enquiry Agent, Private Enquiry Agent. I was working with a group of men over at Crows Nest then I branched out on my own and I was doing quite well with that. Still the grog got the better of me so I just

fizzled on and battled on my own for a long time. Then I finished up when I was about 59 or 60 working for St Vincent de Paul at their clothing store at Leichhardt. I think it was Leichhardt. It was over that way, Annandale or Leichhardt.

I stayed there until I went on the pension and I did nothing. Stopped altogether. It wasn’t until I had the ulcerated stomach and on one occasion I woke up through the night

with terrible pains in my stomach and they took me to the hospital and operated on me and then I kept on drinking after that. I was down in the hotel at Yagoona having some beers and I got this terrible pains in the stomach. I just collapsed and the ulcer started bleeding again. I was raced over there

in an ambulance and the doctor said he made such a mess of my stomach cutting it open because he had to get in very quickly to stop the bleeding. So that finished that.

From then on I became a gardener. I also had a cancer in the throat on another occasion and I was a very heavy smoker. I took up smoking when I was 18 in Darwin as well as the drinking. So with the ulcers then, when the second one burst that when I stopped drinking beer altogether. Stopped drinking any sort of liquor other than soft drink.

Then when I get the cancer in the throat I just threw the cigarettes in the top drawer and that was it. So I didn’t drink or smoke again. It was a bit too late by the time I did. Should have stopped many many years ago. So that’s about it I think.

Gilgandra which is the other side of Dubbo on the Castlereagh River and it was 11 November ’22 as I keep saying 11/11/22 because 11 came up so many times in my life. I was the 11th child and I was born on the 11th day of the 11th month 1922. I joined the army on

11th March. I was discharged on 22 November ’45. So 11 came up quite often.

I don’t think so.

I see.

Oh, it would have only been a couple of years although I was old enough, I must have been 3 or so because I was old enough to remember living at Glebe when we moved to, came down to the city.

Oh, yes. I don’t remember much. They tell me a horse had me by the hair up in

Gilgandra. The horse was leaning over the fence and I was sitting beside the fence and evidently I had snowy coloured hair and the horse evidently wanted a feed and picked me up by the hair and I think I got too close to a well once. The well in the backyard. I went down the well and they had to fish me out.

There’s another occasion. I have a scar on the nose. I fell down the riverbank. The Castlereagh River when all the family was out there swimming and struck my nose on something. But I don’t remember too much about the country until we got

down to Glebe. We were living at a little place on the side of Ferry Road, Glebe. At the end of the Ferry Road was the Monkey Hill. We were living in an old tin house that was perched on the top of Monkey Hill.

That’s all right.

Yes.

12.

Oh yes. That’s why I say, there were 3 girls, then 3 boys, then 3 girls then 3 boys.

It was all right. As long as the sisters didn’t bash you at all. When they did give you a hiding they’d clip your ears. Because mother used to get

upset. I suppose we’d antagonise her, keep her going. With the husband out in the bush and working to keep us going by working in the café and she’d lay it on although the older boy, one older than me was crippled and the one younger was the baby

so I used to cop the results. On one night when we were in Newtown we went to Clay’s Vaudeville. I don’t know how they let us in, we were so young. We got home very, very late that night. We lived in an old house at that time in Richard Street

and it had a long hallway from the front to the back. The rooms used to run off each side and of course Mervyn went in and he got a little clip on the ears, then Kevin went in and got a little clip and she finally takes me up for getting up there but I landed up the other end of the

hallway because she clipped me right behind the back of the head. I went straight along that hall. She used to take everything out on me instead of the other boys. As I say, one was crippled and one was younger. The baby. So I used to get – she broke a pot stick. A pot stick was what they used to use for getting the clothes out of the copper. She broke a pot stick on my back one time.

Oh yes.

Glebe? All I can remember is that there were a lot of shops along Glebe Road. Oh yes. One time I went swimming down at Glebe Point and

you know yourself if you’ve been swimming in the salt water your hair and that reflects that you’ve been in swimming. So we were running late again coming back from school and used to go to St James’ School originally at Glebe and later went to the public school. Got home late and

crash! I got belted around the head and she said “Have you been swimming down the bay?” She says “I’ll give you swimming!” So she grabbed me by the ankle and put the plug in the bathtub, turned the taps on and as the water was coming up she dunked me in the water as it was filling up in the bath. She said “I’ll give you swimming”. So I got that

and got a belting. But that was normal. It was always me that used to get the savage bits because as I say didn’t get much of it.

Oh yes, she did.

Well, she was a very good mother. She must have been. She put up with what we were doing. Somehow I

can remember back in the country area I climbed up on the roof and jumped off on a bed. It was a big double bed. It was at the side of the house. I got a bit of a hiding for that too. I suppose she had so much to put up with. Just do her block all of a sudden,

crash, bang. That’s why we went in the orphanage. I think she must have relented about the orphanage later on. That’s why she got us out because I can’t remember how long we were in there.

Well, she’d had so many operations. Her stomach was a total mess. She used have a corset and she couldn’t get around without the corset on. She was only

small in height but she was fairly solid and stout build and she had to put the stays on and of course, stays as she called the corset. She was always putting the stays on. She was very ill. She wasn’t really a healthy woman. She was a

good fighter. She used to give her husband when he was around. He came down once from the country and I can remember in the country we had a kitchen out in the back yard. It was like a shed and he came running out of there one time with cups and saucers flying after him and hitting him on the back.

She must have given him a punch up every now and then.

I saw him a couple of times in the country and once when we were in the city somewhere. I think it might have been Ultimo. He came down for about a week and he went off again. Then during the Depression days

two of my brothers went out with him rabbit trapping all over the State. That’s how they got their living too. Trapping rabbits with him.

I don’t think so. I don’t think he earned enough. No I think she got it all because of the working in the cafes, restaurants.

She used to work in them all along. I think she used to do general labouring but she was so used to washing up I think that’s why she worked in the cafes I think.

The Depression?

I used to sell bottles to

get money and used to find bottles somewhere and run up to Cordukes - was the bottle yard at Newtown. On King Street, Newtown. I think we used to get a penny for a soft drink bottle and a ha’penny for a beer bottle I think. Something like that we used to get.

It would be enough money to get us to the pictures every now and again. Had to hole it up until we got sixpence to get into the movie at Hoyts Newtown or the Hub or the Majestic. We used to go to the Majestic a lot. There was a lot of Vaudeville on in those days. I still don’t know how we used to get in because we were only kids.

On the corner of Erskineville Road and Wilson Street, Newtown. Just down from the Newtown Bridge. Later on they had the Police Boys Club further down Erskineville Road which was near the

railway line and I think that later became the Hub No.2. The Hub was on the corner of Lennox Street and the Newtown Bridge. The Majestic was at the corner of Wilson Street and Erskineville Road and then the Police Boys Club was down Erskineville Road near the railway station

and that become Hub No.2 theatre and then there was Manchester Unity Hall in Enmore Road, George’s Hall in King Street. Manchester was on the way to Enmore on Enmore Road. George’s

Hall was on King Street going towards St Peter’s from Newtown Bridge.

You want me to tell you? Well, Cordukes had a back gate in Longdown Street and

his front gate was up on King Street. His office was up near King Street. Often times we would wander into the back section and find a couple of bottles and then go out again and then run right around the block, come in the front door and sell them to Mr.

Corduke and he’d give us money. We needed money so that was one way of getting the money.

Yes.

It was terrible, wasn’t it?

Yes, that’s right.

No, just that, stealing cakes. Each day I used to go from North Newtown School. Come out at lunchtime and run all the way down to Missenden Road

and Salisbury Road. Salisbury Road, Camperdown and down at the bottom of Salisbury Road in the hollow somewhere just going towards Camperdown Park there used to be a soup kitchen. We used to get a run down there each day for dinner to the soup kitchen. The women used to do a marvellous job there. Serve us kids from all different schools would go

there and have the soup and the women used to volunteer and go in there and deal it all out to us.

Probably, maybe in excess of 100. They came from various schools. North Newtown

of course was the furthest away because it was down in, bottom of Queen Street and street runs, an avenue. It’s the old timer’s disease catching up, see.

Oh yes. Oh no, Mother would make sure we had porridge and that of a morning. She was really a good mother like that. Catering. She cooked very big meals. She always used to cook. She was a real good

supplier.

I started school at Ultimo and that was Jones Street Ultimo, that school. Oh no, before that I was at

St James and then at Glebe. I don’t remember much about there. I don’t remember much about Ultimo. I know I used to try and get out of any school work and then we went to North Newtown, no Forest Lodge then to North Newtown.

Went to the Primary school and I must have been one of their fair pupils. I did fairly good there because one teacher in 6th class used to take us on outings. Whoever got near the top of the class he’d take us on outings. Places to the zoo and such things.

Then I went to the North Newtown Intermediate High School. After the primary school they had the intermediate high school there as well and I got to 2nd year. I was 14, that’s when I left. Got the job at Panel and Veneers.

Spreading veneer at the frame works at the kiln and pushing the tracks in so the veneer would dry out because they’d steam logs and then they’d put it in a

slicer machine and they’d slice it off and cut the veneer off. It would be very wet so I used to put it in the kiln to dry it out. I must have been there about 18 months.

It was sold out to all types of business. Some used it for walls. Some used it for tables or furniture.

It was the only job I could get. . It was a long way to walk from Newtown to Rosebery.

About ½ an hour, ¾ hour. Used to walk down Erskineville Road and across next to Australian Window Glass there. There was a

big pipe run beside all the Chinese Gardens near the sewerage near the Alexandra Canal. The Chinese Gardens were there and this big pipe. I could walk on the ground mostly but I used to walk on this big pipe that went right across. I don’t know what was inside it. Water I suppose.

To go to work because mother needed money.

Oh yes.

We needed help because the girls were working. They used to get some money. They were at Sydney Cab Company. My older brother was working somewhere but he was crippled and generally she was taking him to the hospital.

I used to contribute. I forget how much I used to get. 10 shillings a week I think. I used to give it all to the mother and she used to just give me a couple of bob to go to the movies now and again. When I was fighting, this was later on I’d

get my own money to go to the shows. I used to get 30 bob I think it was for the Sydney Stadium. That was big money. Ernie would take 10%. Parramatta Stadium, I’d get £1. Ernie would take his 10%. But mother

needed the money to pay the rent because often times she didn’t have enough money to pay the rent so I had to get a job. Couldn’t not be without it.

10 when I was with Ernie McQuillan. He used to run tournaments.

Well I used to train at the gymnasium. It was at St Joseph’s at Newtown. At the bottom of Lennox Street, Newtown. They had a gymnasium underneath the church and that’s where I used to do all my training. I used to fight at Ernie’s on the boxing nights when he had the nights. Although he’d

let me go up and punch the bag around when I was fighting but he used to chase me out when I’d go up and try to punch a bag every now and then. You’d sneak into his gymnasium and he’d chase you out. All the kids wanted to go and punch a punching bag. He’d have to chase you out to get rid of you. I had a few fights there for Ernie

but I never got anything out of it. Sore ear and such things but it was something to do and that’s what I used to do. All I used to do was mainly fighting.

He was an old time fighter. He used to live in Horton Street, Newton

when he was younger. That’s where his family all lived his parents and brothers. He was quite a nice fella. Not much I can tell about Ernie. He was a good trainer. Used to look after all his

boxers and he was well up in the boxing world. He and Harry Miller from the Sydney Stadium were great friends. Ernie could get his boxers on the fights at Sydney Stadium. Monday nights, I think were the nights at Sydney Stadium.

He’d have quite a card full of fighters to look after. Get all his fighters. That was good too because it was 30 bob instead of quid.

With Ernie when I was 17.

Yes. I forget. I used to know the record and

I got knocked out the first fight. Then I won all the others and then I went to Darwin and I had 3 fights in the Darwin Stadium. I won the 3 of them by knockout and then we were down 29 Mile in a ring down there and I used to fight there and

also train a lot of other fellows. I used to put boxing exhibitions for the rest of the troops. The crowds down the 29 Mile. Then when we were at Gan Gan I fought at Newcastle Stadium and I had 3 fights there and I won them all

by knockout. At that Stadium had a 10 rounder there was the last fight I had before I went overseas. I won that. Used to get plenty of applause from the press in Newcastle.

Yes.

Yes.

Well I joined the Scouts at Newtown. St Joseph’s Church at Newtown. It was the 4th Newtown as they called it. 64th

Catholic Troop and Anne at that time was Lady Cubmaster at Redfern. Redfern Catholic Church and she left there and came over to start one at Newtown, 4th Newtown and she started the Cubs there and I was in the Scouts and of course we got together and

I think she was 15 or 16 at the time. She was much too young to be Lady Cubmaster but she was the Lady Cubmaster of the pack, the Cub pack. She worked as a secretary at HC Bowdens. He was the contractor for the IXL Jam Factory. The carter then had all the trucks

and her father was the right hand man of Harry Bowden’s on the trucks. I started going out with her. We used to go to the Hub Theatre every Saturday night and I’d buy a chocolate and then,

I don’t know when it was but I used to have her doing the banking for me. She used to bank money for me because the day I joined the army, my mother had rang her to see if she knew where I was and none of them knew where I was because I’d gone

down the previous day to join the navy. Sit for the naval examination. She had the bankbook there to draw the money out. I think we got £2 out. I think that shook the balance around a bit. Then when I was in Darwin every payday, the £3.10 I used to get to start with and I used to go to the Post Office and send £2

down. I’d wire £2 to the Newtown Post Office and she’d put that in the bank. She did that all the time I was in Darwin and so we had a little bit of money when I came back. I used to bank that £2 out of the £3.10 every fortnight.

Yes .

That’s when we were going. Then we finally got married on 29 May 1943. 60 years in another 2 weeks.

Yes.

I don’t know. It was a long way away. I didn’t know how she found it was up there because it was at Narellan. She just took us up and deposited us there and walked away and got the train back I think it was train or bus or whatever it is. I think it was a train.

I don’t know. I would have been about 5, 4, 5 or 6.

No, only the younger ones. 3 girls and 3 boys. The youngest half. The others were all working somewhere. The girls were married. They were all married

at that time. The older girls. One was dead. She was deceased. She died before we left Gilgandra as a matter of fact. The other 2 older girls were both married and the 3 boys, they were all working somewhere. So there was the 3 girls

and 3 boys. There were 6 of us went up to the orphanage.

That was pretty crook because I was running after her crying. So didn’t want to be left there, you know. But she just had to keep going and that was it.

It was pretty reasonable. They were

all nuns running the show. We were treated pretty well. Yes it was quite all right. There was a lot of religious stuff at that time because it was a Catholic orphanage and the nuns were running the show so quite a bit of religion

came into it.

I don’t know. I don’t know how long we were there.

Oh yes. She took us back out. She must have got some money from work again and thought she could take

care of us again. So she came and got us out again.

Oh yes. Renew the old acquaintances and the pot sticks.

The pot sticks. .

What she used to belt me with. She used to use it to lift the clothes out of the copper and put them in the

water, oh what do you call it?

Yeah, she’d stir the clothes in the copper boiler and then lift them up and put them in the tub. Tub, that’s it. The washing tub and soak them in that until they cleaned up. That was what the pot stick was for.

Other than for belting me.

Yep, yeah.

No. Oh no. Because I was the cheekiest one I suppose. I was too cheeky for her.

No, I don’t think so. I don’t think I ever worried, once I got over it. I don’t think it ever worried me. Probably made me a drunkard. That may have been why I started drinking so much beer.

Yes. Colourful .

Yes.

Because the chappie next door, Bert. He joined the navy and was quite happy about it.

I thought, “I might as well be in the navy too” because Bert was enjoying life in the navy and I was trying to get in the navy. Didn’t eventuate though. Didn’t take long to join the army though.

Oh, it was only mathematics and

dictation and yet I could do all the maths and spell quite well. I’d gone to high school and they just said “I failed”. I don’t know how come I failed.

Downhearted. Not going to get in the navy. That’s why I walked from

there to the Army Depot and went into the Victoria Barracks and they said “Go down and join.” So I went to Moore Park Depot and that’s where it all started with the army.

Yes. .

Just that I was sitting there waiting and they asked me to sign the papers and I signed them. My mother did try and endeavour to get me out a bit later when I was at Darwin because I didn’t have her permission to go in the army but they knocked her back so I had to stay in the army

up in Darwin.

Just turned 18.

I was 18 in November and this was in March, 11th March.

Anne.

I don’t think she liked it very much because she still goes crook now. She says “I spent all my time alone without him”. 60 years and when it comes up she says well I was away for all that time to start with and away, only home a couple of days and then when I

rejoined again at 10 years, then I was down in Melbourne quite a few times a year instructing down there. Then I went in to Korea. She says I was away again. I don’t think she liked it. Although she didn’t mind. She used to come to the Sergeant’s Mess at Moore Park and join in. That’s when we got around a little bit.

Nothing just that I wanted to join the Darwin Battalion because the fella next door. This is the nephew of the one who joined the navy.

He’d gone and joined the Darwin Infantry Battalion so that was the only Battalion I knew so when I went down to Moore Park I told them I wanted to join the Darwin Infantry Battalion. They’d just gone to Darwin. They went up on the Izlandia[?] though. The first lot. A big crew and so I was the first lot of reinforcements for them and I was the first one to go

overland down via Melbourne, Adelaide and so on. Alice Springs.

No, that came later because see when I joined I was just going to join the Battalion so when I went to Darwin they put me in D Company, which is an infantry company

and it wasn’t until the signaller corporal come round looking for recruits in the signal platoon that I decided I’d become a signaller. Up till then it was just wherever they sent me and that’s when I joined the signal platoon and of course that included the dispatch riders

as we called them but Motorbike Orderlies. That’s when I took a likening to the motorbikes so I started riding a motorbike and then they accepted me as a dispatch rider.

They just said “Sit around” and then a bus came and they said “All for North Head on the bus”. They took me over to North Head Barracks. It was the, what do you call it when people go into, it used to be our – quarantine. The quarantine section, that’s where we were. They were using that

as the army Barracks and they issued us with the uniforms and full rig out. They had what we used to call the Mandrake Capes. Capes with cross over straps here (indicates under arms). They called it the Mandrake Cape. We were well known. Our Battalion was the only one

that had this Mandrake Cape. It was a rain cape.

It was just a cape that come on the back of your shoulders down the back and it had cross straps that did up around the waist. There was a strap there and a strap there (indicates crossing over on chest) and they did up on each side.

Looked quite well it did. The Mandrake Cape.

We were the only Battalion to have that.

I had to go to bed and go to sleep. . I woke up the next morning and they allowed us 4 hours

to get from the Quarantine Depot to Sydney and back again and so we had to make our own way from the Quarantine Depot down to Manly. Get the ferry across and the tram out to Newtown and that’s when Anne and my mother were in the house still trying to

find out. Well, Anne had, I think she rang the army and they’d said that “I’d enlisted”.

All they knew was that I was going down to sit for a navy examination. I finished up the same day in the army. Didn’t even know myself until I got in the army .

But I was so disappointed I think with the failing and not making any impression on the navy that that’s when I decided to walk from there all the way to Moore Park and signed up.

Yes, a chap, Keithie Beasley. Keith Beasley was the chap next door.

No, he’d just gone up but his Uncle, Bert Pollard. I couldn’t think of Bert’s name earlier.

Navy. He was the one that went in the navy and ‘cos I thought I’d like to join the navy. Then Keith Beasley had been in the CMF [Civilian Military Forces] at Addison Road but he went and joined the Darwin Infantry Battalion and ‘cos they’d gone on the Izlandia to go to Darwin and of course when I was – I suppose I was so disappointed not getting in the navy and

the only thing I knew was the Darwin Infantry Battalion.

Wanted to join it, which they accepted me that same day.

Only my uncles.

Not very often. They were nearly all from the

west of NSW and the only time like the Pictons, they’d come down. They’d stay with us at Newtown and that was the only thing I knew about the army actually. They’d been members of the army during the war, the ’14 to ’18 war.

Walking along King Street, Newtown I think. In the shopping centre. Yes. We used to go quite a lot Friday nights. Every Friday night we’d go for a walk up the shopping centre and stop at a milk bar and have a milkshake.

We’d always go right along the Newtown shopping centre, 4 of us.

Someone happened to mention it and I remember Harry Powell was my friend at the time. He was the one who used to walk with us. We used to go every Friday night and he almost broke down. He says “Oh no”

someone yelled out “The war’s started”.

Because I think he didn’t like to see the world at war I think. Harry finished up, he joined the air force, went to Canada and trained as a pilot and then went on to England. He came back from the war still in one piece.

I don’t think I worried much about it because there wasn’t much interest in it as far as I was concerned. But I didn’t react like Harry did. Harry was really upset that war had started.

I think it was just for something to do and of course Bert had joined the navy and I thought oh well the navy might be – I suppose I thought the navy might be quite a good show so that’s why I decided to join the navy and I applied to the navy. Put an application in and they sent me a notification

telling me to go down to Rushcutter’s Bay. To report to Rushcutter’s Bay on a particular day in the morning.

I thought I’d get more money that I was getting at the works, Herman Plastic Moulding at that time.

No, I don’t think Australia did. I don’t know whether I was thinking “Oh well, get away with the mob”, you know because most of them were starting to go in the army, join the army by that time and

getting way. So I suppose that’s why I went in to be one of the mob.

Probably that would have been included in it yes.

No, I was only here the one day. Like I joined the 11th and the 12th I was on

the train. The only time was a little town. See we went down to Melbourne, on to Adelaide and then up to this. Fancy forgetting that town, little town. Terowie, I think it was. I think that’s the name of it unless Terowie’s in Queensland. I think Terowie was this little town and they camped us there on

one side of the town, the road and the town was on the other side and they decided to take us for a swim. That was the first bit of training I ever had. That’s where they taught us to form 4’s and line up and so on.

Then they said we’d go out for a swim in the salt lakes. They didn’t tell us it was so far out and we marched and marched and marched. When we got out there – oh, that’s right. When I was at school too, 13 at the Domain Baths. I used to go down to the Domain Baths.

I was at High School yes, I was 13. I got the Bronze Medallion for Life Saving. But I had turn 14 before they could give it to me and so I was 14, when I turned 14 they presented me with the Bronze Medallion for Life Saving.

No.

That was just the life saving and going to the Domain Baths. But when we got to this Terowie or whatever it was and they’d taken us out for a swim in the salt lakes. When we got out there they enquired “Any lifesavers here?” So we had to sit on the side while all the others swam

and they let us go in for 10 minutes at the end. I only got 10 minutes and the others got a couple of hours. We had to sit there in case we had to dive in and pick them out. The lifesavers had to sit on the side.

No not again because that was a really hot old ground out there. We walked for quite a few hours, we marched

and then we had to sit there while the others all enjoyed the swim in the salt lake.

Oh it was quite, very very good.

Just that, I think we were there for 2 weeks at that little town and then they,

I forget all the names of the places now but they put us on the train to Alice Springs. ‘Cos riding on that train was a highlight because I’d never seen a carriage like it.

Yes. It had seats right down the side, each side. Not in the middle. Not crossways or anything. Just long seats along

under the windows. Didn’t seem to be a very big engine. Went along all right. (Phone rings) That’s my wife, I think.

Yes. We had some camp. All I can remember of Alice Springs is that it was such a pretty place.

It was green and white. All the places seemed to have lots of lawns, green lawns and the buildings seemed to be white. It was such a clean looking place.

Maybe 2 days or 3 days. They also had a boxing ring in the bottom of the

river in the bed of the river in Alice Springs. Same as they did at the next place up.

No. It was – oh dear.

Yes. Where the Englishmen are supposed to have got killed from. Barrett Creek.

Yes.

There was one fella. He was a Warrant Officer. He was a Newcastle fighter and his brother was a Newcastle fighter. He was a Warrant Officer. He’d just joined – couldn’t have just joined because he was a Warrant Officer. He had something to do with the ring and because he used to come into McQuillan’s gymnasium

and he knew me from there. Of course he was advising everyone to put their money on me in boxing.

Oh yes. Yes. I always volunteered. Same as the old Darwin Stadium. It was just a round tin fence with no roof on it

and logs for seats.

I don’t know. Only just the soldiers. Whatever number was there. Just something for the troops. For the battalions to break the monotony. Give them something to do.

No.

I don’t know.

I think I must have. .

Barrett Creek, yes.

Yes.

Other people. Some with experience. Some with no experience. They just got in and had a go. Just something to do. It’s like show night.

Just for something more or less to happen.

Oh, there would have been, I think it would have been a couple of hundred troops because there were quite a lot of trucks and

I’ve got photographs out there when next place up we stopped at was Newcastle Waters. That was when the flood was on because there was a flood and we used to have to put 40 sandbags on each truck and drop them off as we went across this water where there was evidently a bit of road washed away.

To drop them off

as they went across where the water was washing the road away.

No, as the trucks went across, they’d drop the sandbags off and put them under the water.

Yes. To make the road more stronger. The passageway more stronger.

It was quite all right. It was a bit tiring I think. Just sitting in the back of those trucks all day didn’t do you much good for moving around.

Oh yes. Except for the scenery. Like even on the trains there were lots of camels and donkeys.

In all parts of the things as we went there. So there’s wonderful scenery out there. Like at where that Aboriginal rock is. There’s some rock out there somewhere that every person, people go out on holidays to look at this rock. Well at Barrett Creek there were 3 of those hills.

That was quite nice to see and climb up them. We used to climb up the hills but there were 3 shaped the same as that one in the…

Ayer’s Rock. Yes. That’s the one. Same as that.

Yes, the Ghan was

what we went on from Peterborough to Alice Springs. Like we went from this little town Terowie or whatever it was to Peterborough on one train and then we changed onto the Ghan, I think it was from there from Peterborough which is also where the railway line comes from Broken Hill

to South Australia. Meets at Peterborough. That’s when we got on the other train and went to Alice Springs from there.

Not much there. There was three streets. Our army camp was only a couple of miles out from

Darwin itself. At Parap. That was the army camp we were at.

Yeah it was all tin huts. Silver City it was well known as because there was all silver tin huts. Down behind it was the Chinese Cemetery and

got some photographs of the toilets and that out there in the army in the photograph. Old hessian covered showers and toilets. The hessian round the walls.

1000.

Yes this is where the training started because I was in D Company and we really got into training up there.

Well ordinary drill training at Don Company because it was a Rifle Company.

It was just Form 4’s. Ordinary parade ground stuff. I think it was every week we would have a battalion parade. I’m sure that was every week. The battalion parade and the whole battalion which was a 1000 strong men. Would be out on parade every week because we had quite a big parade ground

and it was dirt. It wasn’t cement or anything, cemented in it was just gravel parade ground. Very big one. Right in the middle of the camp.

They were the NCO’s [Non Commissioned Officers] in the battalion and they were quite good because most of them were from the Darwin Mobile

Force. Originally the Darwin Mobile Force they went to Darwin. They were the regular army. They went up there as the Darwin Mobile Force. Well then in I think it was 1940 they decided to form the Darwin Infantry Battalion to take over from the Darwin Mobile Force. The Darwin Mobile Force

men came down and became the officers, NCO’s and so they were fully trained, well trained.

Darwin Mobile Force, which was the permanent army.

Wonderful fellas. Jimmy Ore was a wonderful man on drill

and he was Captain. So many of them they were really wonderful soldiers. Len Hutton, a Stawell Gift runner, he later became my trainer, boxing trainer and Len Hutton, Harry Fall, another Australian Rules Player from

Adelaide although Harry came later on, that’s right. Len Hutton was a regular army fellow and he was a Stawell Gift runner. We had some wonderful fellas there.

Oh yes. We would have won the rugby league competition that year except the 2/3rd Pioneers beat us for

the final.

When I was fighting in Darwin Stadium but that was only, as I say, a round tin fence. No roof and the seats were just logs driven in the ground with forks on them then a log across from each

fork and sit on the logs and that was the seating. I think the ring was built up on (phone rings)

Beer crates were put down first, then the boxing ring, the base of the ring

was on top of the beer crates so it was a real old bushy boxing ring. Quite a good ring though.

A couple of hundred, only a couple of hundred because not many people up there at that time. There’d only be 2000 white people in the whole town.

Oh, whole time maybe a dozen, 2 dozen because there was so many at the 29 Mile as well.

At that time I was a Welter Weight. I was 10 stone something and later on that was in the early days.

Later on I became a Middle Weight and I was 11s 2p.

Orthodox.

Len didn’t take on with me until we got to Newcastle.

At Darwin it was just my compatriots. Darcy Armstrong used to fight at Queanbeyan, Canberra. He was in the sigs. We used to just put the gloves on together and do some training with each other.

It was just a get together, no real trainer there.

No. Oh no. Just whenever you felt like getting it done.

I think so. Where was it? It was in the Yank at Oro Bay used to run around with a hundred dollars

in either hand “I’ll have a hundred dollars on the Aussie!” There was someone in Darwin who always used to have a bet. Used to always bet on me.

When this Corporal came around, “Harry, someone looking for people to learn

the signalling, go in the signalling, signal platoon.” That’s when I decided I’d give it a try, the signal platoon. My little mate, Vic Bennett he went with me and the two of us learnt the Morse Code. Learn to operate the switchboard, put up lines, signal lines, wires and so on.

Yes. Parap. All at Parap.

I don’t know. Harry ran a school. I suppose the school would have went for about a month and then they’d give you the test for the Morse to see if you read Morse. We had to read the Morse

at such a speed to become a Group 2 Specialist as we were and so we that’s what we got the extra money for. Being a Group 2 Specialist.

I don’t know. It was probably 20 words a minute. We had a Stan Bellis, an old Postmaster fellow

and he used to take the news everyday over the thing that would be at 30 words a minute and Stan could just read that like he was reading a book. No problem to him. But he was a really marvel with the Morse. But I suppose 20 words a minute would have been the most I ever got up to.

Semaphore. With the flag. Semaphore Flags. That’s 2 flags and the Morse was one flag.

Oh yes. 2 flags for Semaphore and one big flag for Morse Code.

Dit Dit Dit (showing with hands moving flag a small way to the side) Da was right over (showing with hands moving flag right down). Dit was a little one.

Dot yeah. Then Dit Dit Dit Da. Big one would come right down to the side and the other ones would only come a little way over.

Arms.

It was A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I J and so on (Showing different movements with arms for each letter of the alphabet).

Yes.

News everyday. Stan Bellis

used to take the news over the radio with the Morse. It’d come over in Morse all the time. So there was a Morse. There were messages every day on the war.

No. It was the news of what was happening all over the world with the war. Not official stuff. No.

What was happening, yes. Throughout the world.

Oh yes.

I don’t know. I just became brash. I was able to beat everyone and I started smoking as well. I started drinking as well. I don’t know how I got to the drink.

I think it was because I went up to the canteen one night and I just started to drink and then went on and on.

Not lose consciousness but I was pretty dopey.

Only amongst some. Some yes like poor old Stan Bellis. He could still take Morse even though he was rotten. He was just phenomenal.

No. Stan only drank by himself. He always turned up for his news though. Take his news and his Morse then he’d go out and get on the grog again. I just started to drink

because I was the big smasher, I could beat anyone and just grew that way.

Pretty easy to get on with but I suppose I wanted to be a blowhard and that’s what made me

start to drink.

Oh, I think so because I was just “I could beat this bloke and I could beat that bloke”. There’s no one I couldn’t beat in the battalion. Then I become just a big blowhard with the grog

and see what I can do. I can drink all day and it just got out of hand. Really I become a drunkard. On occasions I wouldn’t drink. More than less if I got the opportunity I was into it. They used to have to throw me out of the canteen at night to close it up. They’d close up the canteen and evict me, get rid of me. That’s how long

I’d be there. I wouldn’t know when to give off.

I don’t think it took me very long. Then I tied up with different people at different hotels in the town. The Victoria Hotel.

If I remember correctly there was some fella there who used to fight down in Adelaide or somewhere and I think I mixed up with him and of course I’d be drinking beer all the time I was talking to him. Yeah, it just got out of hand all over the years. But later in the years it got worse and worse.

No.

Oh Stan, poor old Stan. He’d drink and drink. He’d go all day. I think that’s why he left the post office. He was such a brilliant Morse man. But Stan just drank and drank. That’s all he did. Drank and got his news.

Oh yes.

He’d sit there and drink while he was writing it away and could still never miss a jot.

Oh yes. Mainly when I was finished when the canteen opened after tea, after dinner. Go over and have a drink and drink till the canteen closed at night.

Yes, oh yes. That’s all they had to do of a night time.

Oh yes, there was a movie house there. Quite a good movie. The Star I think it was called. It had no roof on it but it

was quite a good one. Deck chairs. You used to sit in deck chairs. I used to even go there. Now and again. But the movie house was all right but the pub seemed to be the main place to go to. We went everywhere else. We’d go swimming as well.

As well as going out each day signalling. We’d go to point A and someone would cross the harbour or something to point B and you’d signal to each other with the flags.

Yes. To train. To keep in training you know.

Oh I don’t know .

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L. (Demonstrates flag positions with hands) I think that’s L, M, N, O, then a P

comes out, Q, R, S. From there on I’ve gone. The Morse of course is Dit Da, that’s A B is Da Dit Dit Dit. C is Da Dit Da Dit. (Demonstrates flag movements with hands)

D is Da Dit Dit. E is Dit. F is Dit Dit Da Dit Da. G is Da Da Dit. H is Dit Dit Dit Dit. I is Dit Dit. J is Dit Da Da Da. K is Da Dit Da. L is Dit Da Dit Dit. M is Da Da.

N is Da Dit. O is Da Da Da. P is Da Da Dit. Q is Da Dit Da Da. R is Did Da Dit. S is Dit Dit Dit. T is Da. U is Dit Dit Da. V is Dit Dit Dit Da.

W, X is Da Dit Dit Da. Y is Da Dit Da Da. Z is Da Da Dit Dit. I think.

Yes, oh yes. That’s why I got caught at Tagano Bay when the battalion went on and I was taken off and had to stop at Brigade Headquarters as an operator because they were short of operators.

Oh, I joined in March, April. It might have been the end of May. I don’t think it was June. It was towards the end of May.

1941 yes. That’s how long it took us to get there because

when we got to Newcastle Waters as I say, it was the wet season in the Northern Territory, the water it come down and it washed all over the roadway and that’s why we had to put the 40 sandbags on each truck. Drop them off at different places where they were needed across the water and ‘cos most of the boys went in swimming

and in the photo they’ve got no costumes on, just their back bits poking up and they’re all having a swim in the flooded water.

The wet season.

So it would have to be just before the end of May because the wet season would stop around that time.

Beautiful in the dry season. Really wonderful. But in the wet season, perspire from go to woe. But the dry season is really lovely in the daytime. Beautiful days and nights.

That’s right. That’s what I say in the wet season it was wonderful when a storm came ‘cos you could run out and just strip off and get out in the cold water and have a shower. Have a good shower. That’s how heavy the rain was because you could shower under the rain. Instead of having to stand under a roof or something.

Oh, they’re liable to come anytime

in the wet season. They just rolled in.

Training. Yes.

Yes.

No, no.

Training

period. Yes.

I don’t think there was much talk about it. There was possibly a lot of conversation, you know when Japan came into the war.

I don’t think they ever worried about Darwin itself. I can’t recall any conversations.

No, I think 7th December 1941.

I wouldn’t, I don’t think I was over anxious but I probably was upset about it because it being so close to this side of the world as well as from America.

Yes.

Stan would take the news. He always took the news every day. He wouldn’t miss that news. Would come over what was going on throughout the world.

Yes. Singapore. I think that’s when we started worrying because we were wondering what was going to happen from there on because when Singapore fell.

Yes. I think we were always scanning the skies from there on expecting something to sneak in. They certainly came in the day it happened though.

Well, I think I was out

putting up sig wires. We were out near Fannie Bay and there was an ack-ack placements [anti aircraft guns] there. Right beside us. There were three of us putting this sig wire through somewhere past the – going past the ack-ack guns. It

just happened. These fellas ran to their guns and the sirens started going because we had nowhere to go. The trees were very sparse and far apart and that’s we knew it was happening when the gunners all ran to their guns and we could hear terrific explosions all over. As it turned out

they made a big hole all around the Post Office in Darwin and the ships they sank was amazing. So we just lay on the ground and there was one tree that was way out. We had no hole to get in. We were just lying under these couple of trees

and honestly when they come around strafing after they’ve dropped their bombs and that. They came round strafing the ack-ack gunners. Honestly if I’d had a big stick I think I could have pushed the gunner out of the plane as he went past because they were so low, you know. That was the first we knew of it but the consequence was bad. For weeks after we’d walk around the sea

front and you’d go round the beaches and that and you’d find bodies in the water. It finished up having to have to get bags to pull the bodies in otherwise they’d fall to pieces and just put them up on the beaches.

Yes, later on. That was a week or 2 after the bombing. Still pulling bodies in. Every now and again. There

was no drive on them it was just as you – like we’d be walking around the beach or something putting a line near a beach and just see a bit of a body. You’d get a bag and all that was the thing to pull the bodies out in.

Just did it. Just pulled the bodies up ‘cos if you grabbed it by the hands, if you used your hands,

they’d probably fall to pieces and just leave them on the beach and report them that they were there. They’d bury them on the beach.

Bags. Yes.

Any bags that was in. Especially if there was sugar bags around, you know. You’d scoop the body out and carry it up onto the beach.

Then report it. Yes. Where the body was.

All I could see was smoke and hear explosions. Especially with the Ack-Ack gunners. Sometimes they were blasting right over our heads. If they were

aiming this way or up but it was a terrific amount of noise because the gunners being in close proximity to the Ack-Ack guns. The planes dropping their bombs on all the ships in the harbour.

I don’t think I was afraid. I wasn’t too happy. I wasn’t too brave.

I wasn’t going to move off that ground .

No, no, no. We were just putting up wires for that area. I don’t know why we were putting the wires but it was running past near the Ack-Ack gunners. So we were just going along and there was no slit trench there.

Three of us.

Oh yes, we all lay under the tree. .

I don’t know. For as long as the raid lasted. They came over as I say, strafing the gunners.

Yeah or yeah. We used to go getting fish, catching fish and that sort of thing.

As a matter of fact I got one fish one night. I think it was Barramundi as they call it and ran in and I was able to grab it by the tail and pull it up on the beach and I sold it to the publican at the Parap Hotel.

Got three beers for that. .

Yes, it was splashing around in the water and I just run in and grabbed it by the tail

so that really – it was big, one about this big (indicates size with hands about 2 foot apart). Quite a big fish.

Well it was too far away from the shore from where we were. We were on this side and the wharf front. I believe the joint in the wharf went

out I believe first bomb. The wharf went out and sideways along.

The middle of it they got. First hit. So they join as it went out, got knocked out first up.

I think there was.

Oh no. No.

I don’t know. I suppose you could’ve seen them because there wasn’t very much distance between the Post Office and the wharf. The main wharf.

I don’t think – I went in, we went in and had a look at the Post Office, probably I had a look at the wharf too but I can’t remember much about it.

It wasn’t so much the Post Office. It was all around it. It was these big holes where the bombs had. They must have dropped quite a few on there because there were quite a number of holes around there. I don’t know how many.

They were really blown out.

I don’t know. I don’t remember them. But I don’t think there was any more buildings. There wasn’t many there anyhow. The Post Office was more or less on its own going towards the water because it was only a very small village at that time. With three streets

and not much. The hotels I think were the biggest buildings.

No. But was so many ships that were sunk though. The only thing we heard was them saying about I think about 15 or something. I think that about all

or 7 or something from the Post Office but they didn’t give much from the ships until later on and then they only I don’t think they every gave out the right number from the people on the ships. There were so many ships and now it’s coming out that that was a worse bombing than the American one in Hawaii.

Yeah and more planes bombing it.

I don’t think so. I think there were some but they weren’t panicking I don’t think. They were just getting out of Darwin because the week before the bombing anyhow some went out. A trainload

of them went out so they had a lot of people out. There wasn’t many left there.

Yes.

No. None of ours went anyhow.

Oh yes. There was. I think everyone did it. One of ours, Norm Parker, he’d go and burn the place down too.

Chinatown he reckoned that was full of disease.

Yes.

He’d set fire to it.

Set fire to a building yes. When we were camped out by the aerodrome. He was a DR (Dispatch Rider) too. Norm. Another Newtown boy.

He’d do his bike run, motorbike run and he’d come back and say “You watch over town in a few minutes”. He’d get candles about that long and pack cellophane and all that because there was lots of photographic stuff in nearly every house and every shop. Where he could he’d put all this cellophane and films around the candle and set

fire to it. That would give him a chance to get back to where we were and he’d say “Watch over town shortly” and sure enough it would go up. Everyone was around saying that the spies were signalling to the Japanese Air Force. But Norm would set fire to it because he’d say “That Chinatown spreads disease”.

Yes.

I don’t know but Norm

he set fire to them whenever he went in there. He was a terror.

Maybe about 6 or 7 times, Norm would set fire to something.

Oh yeah all gone. Everyone was gone.

Yeah this is what the rumour got around.

That’s what was getting around. Whoever was lighting these fires was sending signals to the Japanese. But that was Norm setting fire to them because he reckoned it was full of disease. The rumours went around that it was spies using the fires as a signal.

I don’t think so.

I think only Chinatown. He reckoned Chinatown was bad.

I don’t think there was too much of it. I never saw any of it anyhow. Never saw any of that.

Oh no because he’d be back in camp when the fire

started. . Oh no.

And that would be about 10 miles away from town when we were out near the aerodrome. 7 miles. We was between the aerodrome and the water and so he’d get back 7 miles and still waiting for it to go up. Then you’d see the smoke come up from there.

Oh yes. They couldn’t fight them. They had nothing. They had fire brigades, army ones but not much.

Not much. They didn’t like it. I think like everyone,

like me. They were a bit shaken up. I don’t know if we were scared but pretty well shaken around.

Oh yes. Even the night time raids. Now we were on a manoeuvre once, coming from the 29 Mile up into Darwin itself to do a manoeuvre,

a battalion manoeuvre. That’s how you got used to it. Night time the raid come over. The searchlights are up picking the aeroplanes out. The planes were dropping bombs. All we did, I did anyhow was just roll over in the bed and had a look at it. We couldn’t have cared less then.

No.

I don’t know. It was just night time and they were probably going for the aerodrome. That was all that was left for them to get.

Not then no. I just rolled over in the bed, search lights on the planes and the planes dropped their bombs. The ack-ack guns going up trying to hit the aeroplanes. Got so used to it. I suppose

that’s the term we used.

The first one I think probably everyone.

No, just myself. I was, don’t know if I was scared or – but

I suppose I was a bit frightened that they were going to drop bombs on the ack-ack gunners but they didn’t anyhow. I suppose I was just – nerves.

Oh no, it was later. I was well into the drink then. In those days.

Yes. Not long after I got to Darwin that was it.

I guess I suppose we had conversations about what we were going to get. What assistance we were going to get and

the American ships coming into port and what troops could come up to assist us and so on. But I guess there would have been a terrific amount of conversation about it because it would have been the main topic every day.

Oh yes, yes.

Just about every day I’d write. I found letters in there that I wrote on the train between Melbourne and Adelaide.

No. That was one I wrote to her.

Yes, what I was doing. I was lying on the train floor. That was between – no I think it was between Sydney and Melbourne. I had a pencil.

That’s all I had was the pencil and I’ve run across that letter. She’s got it in a box in there.

Yeah, I read it. I remember lying on the floor of the train writing that letter. Yes.

Oh, she knew about it. I reckon I

would have mentioned different things that had happened to me whatever they were. I would have mentioned that quite often.

Well, an Officer had to read every letter so you couldn’t put much in there otherwise he’d delete it. But every letter wrote an Officer had to read

it and okay it.

Oh I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I may have. I don’t know.

“I loves ya!!” .

She’d just write up and see how I was. I suppose ask how I was getting on. Yes. How I was faring.

Oh yes, yes.

Oh yeah. But as she reckons now, “You’re always leaving me behind”. . “You’re leaving me”.

Oh yeah. She knew that before I left because we used to go to the other side of Liverpool, Casula. That was where the Scout – there was a Jamboree there one year back

before I went away in the war. We were up at the Jamboree, Scouts and the Cubs and that. Oh yes, we got on quite well. I was down at her place every other night and as I say, every Saturday night we’d go to the movies. The old Hub Theatre.

Weekends we’d – see how much the grog had me, when we went to Cronulla for the honeymoon. The day we were married. The next night I was up the pub ‘til all hours.

That’s the next day. So that’s how the grog hit me.

She didn’t like but she put up with it and that was it.

Yes. Straight away. Drinking grog the next day. Been at the pub all day. So that’s how bad it was with the grog.

Oh yes.

Well I don’t know. They probably said they didn’t have time – yeah they did! The Saturday I left and the authority came through on the Monday. That’s what they told me

after I got back at the Court Martial. That the authority came back on the Monday but I was already gone.

Oh they wouldn’t give me permission to go. I asked to be able to go down and get married because the arrangements were being made for that date.

Seeing it was the Saturday before, the permission hadn’t come back, I went and got on a train and that was it. Took off.

Oh, I guess so. Well that’s how we arranged the date for the wedding.

No.

By mail. Yes.

I don’t think I was worried about it because it was all troops going to different schools and things. As a matter of fact when we got to Brisbane, they were all lining up to get the train to Sydney and the

names were being called. I went out the first one and got on the end of the line and I was the first one on the train. So they turned us left and I marched them all to the train.

We came,

we left down as far as – oh the well known ….

Yeah we got off the train at – oh Old Timer’s Disease it catches up with, on you, doesn’t it?

There’s a place about 90 to 120 miles down from Darwin. Katherine! I think it was Katherine we went to by train. Then we got trucks from there, went out through Mt Isa and from Mt Isa right through, I think to Townsville and down to Brisbane

that way. But that was how we come home.

I don’t know. It would have been about a week I think because there was so many. Mt Isa. We stayed at Mt Isa. We stayed there a couple of days.

I think so because I’d written her and said is it all right if I come down?

There was no leave granted yet but is it okay if I come down?

Yes.

It was at St Joseph’s Church in Newtown. Wedding reception. I think it

was in the Manchester Unity Hall in Newtown, I think.

Yes.

Yes. Relatives. All relatives. That night when we got the train out to the Cronulla and then we had to walk from the station right along the street to where this house was. She’d rented

a house there and I had to carry the cases. Every 10 yards in the end I had to put them down because they were so heavy. But at least we got there.

Oh yes. About two mile.

Oh yes.

Yes. Still

in uniform. I wore the uniform all the time.

Yes. She was there.

I think it must have been about a week I think. No, it must have been 2 weeks because I said I’d got back on the

Monday, then I said that’s too close to the Sunday so I’ll leave it till the end of the week. So it must have been two weeks or three weeks. That’s when I finally made up my mind and went out to the Showground and saw old Mick and told him. I said “I’ve been AWOL Mick and I want to catch up with the unit.”

and he says “Well, you’re supposed to go to the Military Police but I’ll put you under open arrest.” So that’s what he did and I took myself from there on.

All the way.

Open arrest. He said “No-one will know but you, yourself”.

Just that I was on my honour to be under arrest. That I knew I was arrested,

under arrest and I’ve got to go back. Can’t deviate anywhere. That’s what I’ve got to do. Catch the unit up. It’s the same as being close arrest. You’re taken there but open arrest, you know you’ve got to get back and that’s it.

Yes.

I don’t know but I found out they were in the islands in New Guinea. They’d already gone. That’s when I went out and saw Mick. He said “You know they’re in New Guinea now?” I said “Yes, that’s why I want to catch up with them.”

Mick Masters. He was the ex-Officer. Our 2IC in Darwin and

he took over. They sent him down to Sydney and he took over the showground. He was Officer in Charge out there.

Yes.

I think he might have arranged – he arranged for

someone there to raise the papers for me because when I was down at the place he sent me to. I think he looked out his office window and saw I was still sitting there. Some length of time because the phone rang and this chap behind the counter answered it and he was saying “Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir”. Mick had evidently found out I was still waiting and they raised the paper

for me to catch up to my unit. So I went to all these - Selli – that was the staging camp in Queensland and I was out in that staging camp. Near Charters Towers and I used to do picket duties in the town at Charters Towers and do other duties round the camp

and so I took myself all the way from there until I caught up with the unit in Killerton, Cape Killerton in New Guinea and then that was in about June or something.

Yes.

With the troops.

Yes. With

each – every time. That’s what I say, Mick must have raised the paperwork for me because I used to be put on the movements as well. That’s how I caught up with the battalion.

Yes, I don’t know where that was. I don’t know if it was Townsville or somewhere

like that.

No I don’t remember that ship. The only one I can remember is when I went from New Guinea to New Britain.

Not from there. I think I flew from Moresby. Yeah. Moresby to Lae. No not Lae.

Because they were at Cape Killerton and that was down at Gona.

No. I knew the court martial would come up and to tell you how long that was. That was nearly Christmas time before they court martialled me. So that’s how long it took. To get the court martial going. Then they charged me with being

AWOL for 110 days and I said “Oh no.” But that’s how long it took from the time I left Cairns until I caught the unit up. That was 110 days and that’s why they charged me with that 110 days. When I pleaded not guilty they adjourned the court martial for a while. They didn’t say whether they took it into consideration but I said “I surrendered on such and such a date

to Major Masters at Sydney Showground” so that’s when they handed me the envelope. You open that and get a surprise. . So it was only 60 days field punishment which was nothing. Wasn’t imprisonment. They should have imprisoned me for that, you see.

Yes well we landed at Gona and our battalion was camped at Cape Killerton and so I made my way out. Soputa I think was Divisional Headquarters and that’s where I went for the court martial or no, they come

out to the battalion. At the end of the – they had charged me for being AWOL for 110 days but I told them that I surrendered after 30 days and had been open arrest all the way through. They adjourned it until they checked on that.

Then they come back in and at the end of the court martial they handed me the little envelope with the surprise packet inside it. I opened it and read it and it was 60 days field punishment, so then we had to wire ourselves in at Soputa.

Putting barbed wire around the area they allocated for the field

punishment centre. We had tents in the centre and the staff, I think they were in tents too. We just had to put the barbed wire around the allotted area for the centre.

I don’t know, there must have been about 20 I think.

Various offences yes.

Yes. No that was at Cape Killerton. They hadn’t been there too long. The 36th Battalion was one that I think did the action down along Cape Killerton and Cape Killerton

was very quiet. There were no Japanese there when we were there. So we just had – we had one company across. I think they used to call the villages Gona 1, Gona 2, Gona 3. There were a number of native villages on our side of the

inlet and there was other on the other side of the inlet and I think one of the companies was over there and so we were spread out quite a bit there.

I don’t know. .

Preparing the centre.

Just to be established. We was putting up tents, wiring, putting barbed wire in and clearing the land and so on.

Yes. This was for the Field Punishment Centre as they called it. Yes.

Yes that’s mainly what we did. Night times we used to sneak down to the 36th Battalion and watch their movies.

Oh yes. As a matter of fact the officer wasn’t very pleased with it. Instead of having the barbed wire very saggy

we had it really straight and taut and you could more or less walk through it. He was cranky. He didn’t like the infantrymen putting up barbed wire. Should have been real hanging and loose.

Oh yes, you’d get snagged on the barbed wire. We had it nice and neat

so it was easy to get through.

Oh, I think most nights. Down to see the movies. Come back and get back into bed.

No. I don’t think they knew we were gone.

Different members of each battalion

were on the staff. Staff came from the Division as well.

Just members detached out. No I think they probably had a mess somewhere or canteen that they went to at night time and just thought we were okay because we were locked inside the wire.

In the tents, supposed to be asleep.

Oh no, any movie that came up because most units had the movie nights. They would show films different nights.

Did they?

We were at Killerton and as I say I walked putting up signal wires and keeping check on them from there right around to the other company that was right over the other side of the inlet, past the Gona –

I forget the numbers but I think there was 1, 2 and 3 were on our side and across the harbour was Gona 4 and Gona 5.

No, it was just a muddy track . I don’t know how the poor old 36th and other units went and got caught there. Evidently there was quite heavy fighting amongst the

Australian Troops and the Japanese.

Yes. We found bits of bodies along there on different occasions. Mainly Japanese that had put themselves in holes in the ground and acted as snipers.

Just overlooked. Killed in there and left there.

No, we had the War Graves Units getting around and they would fix it all up later on.

Yes, there was Oro Bay, there was boxing. We also had a boxing ring out at our battalion. One at

Brigade, I think it was Brigade Headquarters. They had one. We used to do quite a bit of boxing there and then of course to fight the allied forces we’d go down to Oro Bay Stadium and get a fight. If you could get a fight, you were right.

Oh yes.

Big event all round. That was a real relaxation for all the troops. Used to get very big crowds at all the boxing matches. Just to relieve the – ease the situation I guess. They were very keen on following the boxing and the rugby league. The Grand Final between Newtown and

North Sydney that year I think was played on the Sydney Cricket Ground on the Saturday. I think we were watching films of it on the Monday or Tuesday. It was very good. It was very keen.

Yes, but not as much as the – it depended

on where you were. Later on at Lae we had a field in front of the big unit. There was not much at Gona. When we were up near Lae we played a lot of football. Butibum Road, I remember.

That was the road. The main road through.

Yes.

It was a little town evidently on the seaside up there somewhere. There was Buna and Gona. They were the 2 main towns I think. Gona and Buna. Then Cape Killerton

and Soputa. Soputa was inland a bit. They were just the little townships that were there probably from the plantation owners probably just called them that. They had a lot of plantations.

Yes, until we went up to Lae we remained at Cape Killerton.

We just carried out ordinary signal duties with the signal wires and radio communication until we moved on from there. I don’t know how long we were there.

Yes.

No not involved. There was whilst I was in the Field Punishment Centre, 2 Japanese soldiers came in and surrendered themselves.

They’d been in the bush ever since they’d finished fighting. They just came and decided they’d had enough and came to the Field Punishment Centre and surrendered.

Well all the inmates, the prisoners. All the ones doing the Field Punishment Centre tried to get all the souvenirs

off them. But they had to be kept there for intelligence to see what they had and what they knew. But I know some of the inmates were trying to get some souvenirs off the Japanese.

Oh anything, money, watches. Bits of clothing.

They weren’t really good. I don’t know how

they had eaten all along but they must have been – found out that they couldn’t get any, get out of there so they’d just been living in the jungle in the bushes. So they must have finally decided. I think that was months after the termination of the fighting.

Not

really. They were in fair condition. Especially for the length of time they’d been on the run. Hiding out in the bush.

No, I don’t think so. We didn’t see much of them just that they were there because they were kept by the officers

until they could get the Intelligence up there to interview them so we were more or less ushered away from them actually.

When they originally came in we were all around them. Surrounded them. More or less to see them. Then we were later moved back into

the Centre again until they got the Intelligence troops up.

Yes. They didn’t want souvenirs taken out. So the Intelligence might get some information.

Tournament yes.

Well they had this tournament and they had the American Special Services were organising it. They just put it out that there were fights on and I’d go along and nominate my name and fight anyone that they could find to fight me. That’s how

I used to keep going down there. I had no objection from my senior officers. My colonel was very interested and I suppose it was keeping the morale of the troops as well because we had the whole battalion behind me and my actions. There were a number of other boys fighting too.

Not with the same success.

Oh yes.

Yes. As a matter of fact, there was one American female officer who was talking there one time when I was in with some American officers in their room and she happened to be walking in and was talking about “That Aussie that

hits so hard.” and then she looked at me and said “Oh, that’s you.” I says “Yes.” .

Yes. American troops.

No, there was not enough Australian fighters of my weight to be in the tournaments.

Oh yes,

black. As a matter of fact that was why I was going to send the medal back to America because of the way they were treating the boys in the south of America.

Yes, after the war. I thought I’d send the medal back to the New York Times and see if that could do any good

but I never got around to sending it.

Yes.

I don’t know. Various things I’ve done all my life. I’ve said, “I’ll be doing this.” and never get around to doing it.

Yes

Well evidently Joey Brown organised, must be an Actor’s Guild over in America. For each weight in the boxing one of the actors donated the

medal with their name on it. I was fortunate, I had Greer Garson’s name on the Middleweight one and that it was the one that I won. Although it says 1943 but it wasn’t until 1944 that we fought the tournaments. I got mixed up. I had become very popular with a lot of the

American troops as well as our own troops. We had a big following. There was up to 10,000 people sitting around that ring of a night you know. Each night the fights were on. One American used to always have £100 in one hand and a £100 in the other and he would be going around saying “I’ll have a 100 on the Aussie,” so he was one of my supporters.

It was quite a good thing for the troops to get down there of a night and see the fights and yell their heads off as they won.

I don’t know. The Americans, a professional fighter was a good fighter. But they used to differentiate between an amateur and a professional but we Australians didn’t

have anything other than someone to fight. You know, have a fight.

Oh yes.

Well, like Lenny Ross, the Officer in Charge. He would make arrangements to come on occasions to pick me up somewhere and drive

me down to the stadium to referee different fights on different nights. Of course I always got a big hand from all the Americans onlookers when I walked in the ring. They used to pay the publicity. They’d build it up with me being the only Australian

that won a title. I was unfortunate too. I lost the photograph, it’s a very large photograph it was. General George H Donaldson, the American General and me with the medal on the night after I won the fight.

I think maybe 10 or 11. Different nights I’d fight someone.

’44 yes.

Yes.

That was the only occasion, the medal has on it, for the South West Pacific Area.

That was where the – there was only the one tournament for those medals.

Singer, yes, and he used to sing. I’d have him sing because with a mouth organ I could only play, really get through the Donkey Serenade. Alan Jones I used to like because he was in the movie with the Donkey Serenade.

Lenny Ross used to sing that song or I’d have him singing different songs as we went along, going towards the stadium. Yes, it was quite good to listen to. He was a very good singer.

In charge of the American Specialist Services that was running the boxing tournament there.

Oh yes. I have photographs there in the album. I have one photograph of one of my friends was Kenny Jarvis. He’s holding the medal and there’s another photo of a group of the boys with me with the medal on my chest

and all gathered around after the medal was won.

Len Hutton was earlier before we went overseas but I didn’t have any particular trainer then. I used to just go in a fight.

I guess I was skipping and boxing, shadow boxing.

That’s about all I was doing. Other than that, I’d just go down and have a fight.

That’s when I became a drunkard, drinking beers.

Yeah but I couldn’t get hold of any beer in New Guinea.

There wasn’t any there. Although when we come out of action I used to get bottle beer and I used to cadge some off other fellows and make myself a bit tipsy.

No, no, there was none there.

Yes. That’s right.

No. No.

Yes. That’s right.

Oh, it was so great because the roar of the crowd, especially about 10,000 odd soldiers. The roar and the acclamation and the clapping and cheering was very, very good.

Mainly only about 4 rounds I think

that’s all they would allow in the army.

Yes. Yes.

Mainly. The only one that finished on points was the Grand Final. A chap named Michael Kurtz came from Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania. He’s the one I fought for the final and Michael was a very good and

very nice chap. I only beat him on points because he was a good boxer.

No. I was so pleased when they said I won it. I didn’t know that I’d won it because Michael had given me a bit of a pasting I think. .

Just

my right arm.

Yes.

I guess I was a bit nimble on the feet. I could move around really well.

The right hand. Yes. The score originally I think I had 10 fights and won 9 by

knockouts I think. That was in Sydney before I went away. I think that was how it was going at one stage. Various other places like in Newcastle I think I had three fights there and won two on knockouts. They nearly all finished on knockouts.

Yeah,

it was just a – they had big huts for the dining room for the officers that were organising the things, the Americans. Just an open soft ring. There was no roof over the ring. But there was some big buildings there. They had their Officers’ Mess and dining quarters and

so on.

Yeah, well it was American Headquarters for the Special Services. It was their Headquarters.

I don’t know. Lenny Ross was in charge. They went around getting amenities for the troops all over the world. They had the American Special Services

to get the amenities for the troops. Look after, benefit for the troops.

Joey was just travelling around. He was going all around wherever there were American troops throughout the world I think Joey was just going around as a morale booster for the troops because he was a very well liked chap. Yes. He was a great comedian too

on the movies.

Right up till I got discharged and I was going to start training again at McQuillans but then I joined the Police Force in January ’46 and they

frowned on boxing. Wouldn’t allow the boxing so I let it lapse.

Oh yes. Well I regret not taking the trip to America.

In the mood they wanted me to go to America being the only Australian that had won an Allied Forces tournament. They

thought that in America I would be really popular with all the crowds. But I never got around to following it up.

At Oro Bay. I forget who it was but it was someone concerned with boxing. Mainly back in America and who was in the army there at the time organising what was going on there.

No, after the war.

Yes.

Oh, they were treated quite well, I think. They were always quite happy. As a matter of fact there was always loud laughs wherever

there was black Americans. They were really a happy lot of fellows.

Oh yes, I had lots but I couldn’t recall any names other than Michael Kurtz and he was a white fellow. I think Michael and I were the only 2 white men in the Middleweight Division.

Yes.

Were they?

Oh no, they were all combined up there.

Oh yes.

Oh yes, when Lenny couldn’t pick me up

and if they wanted me to go, if I wanted to go to the stadium, for a fight or referee or for anything. Colonel Foster, Ted Foster would loan me his jeep and driver to be driven down to the stadium. So that was very good of our own Colonel.

Yes.

No, because I was back on the grog again and so I was more or less, I wouldn’t have got fit enough to fight. Now I look back, I’m very pleased I didn’t start fighting because I

would have gone down the drain very quickly I think.

Probably with being so drunk and that all the time I probably would have got a beating, a few beatings. I would have. That’s how it would have happened because I wouldn’t have been training properly. I got on the grog again so that’s why.

No, never worried about it.

Oh, some of them. In Ernie McQuillans’ gymnasium there was always one or 2 that weren’t very good but they would do for 4 rounders and 6 rounders and that. They’d only

be in there for punching material.

Yeah, they were all a little bit on the punchy side.

Nearly punch drunk, you know.

Yes. They couldn’t improve other than a 4 rounder or 6 rounder but they’d keep going in there because they liked their fighting. I suppose they

always thought they’d get up and be a top class one day but they’d only get to 4 and 6 rounds and get themselves knocked about.

No, no.

Yes. Yes. Just finished it.

Oh no. In Darwin.

Yes. That was when we first arrived there. I was in Don Company and then Corporal Harry someone.

Harry wanted recruits to the signal company, the Signal Platoon and that’s when Vicky Bennett and I went across from Don Company to Sigs. That was in Darwin in 1941.

No. No.

In Darwin.

As soon as I passed the examination for signalling, I became a Group 2 Specialist. That was in Darwin. Yes. 1941.

We were

always in radio contact. All our equipment was signal wires and radio. Oh, little square box. I think they were called 28’s or something. Something to do with 28. I think that’s what they called them.

Batteries.

Yes it was from the time I went into the signals there was the radio, the line wire, the line switchboard, switchboard operating and also when I started riding the motorcycles as a Cycle Orderly but that was all in Darwin.

We got all that and the Group 2 Specialist rate of pay.

No, we went to Lae and Nadzab and Bulolo. Up in the gold mines.

Well we went to

Lae out on the Butibum Road and then they took us on a boat across the water. They took us right up into the mountains to Bulolo and we were up on top of the mountains there for a long time. Then we came back down and we got on the Francis Parker later on

and that’s when we went to New Britain on the Francis Parker.

I don’t know.

Training.

Oh yes.

Usual infantry work, you know. Mainly marching. .

Infantry. That’s what – you get out

and you foot soccer.

I don’t know. Keep us in condition and up to scratch with the weapons and that.

Yes.

Oh, I don’t know. It would have been months. Wherever we went we were in training all the time. As sigs as well as do infantry work we had to the wiring, run wires out to the companies and

erect the wireless I mean the phone lines and keep in touch so the companies could keep in touch with the headquarters. We were forever on the go with our signal platoon.

Not up till then. No. We didn’t get any action until New Britain.

I don’t know. They took us down and stuck us on this old ship that was there. A dilapidated old liberty ship. One that they brought out many, many made in a year and made for threepence each they were made for. The old liberty ships. It was the Francis Parker and we

just got on it and just went over to Jacquinot Bay in New Britain. Landed at Jacquinot Bay and then they took us up further along the island I think, it was a Toll Plantation I think. It was just a plantation they stuck us in there and it was overgrown with grass and weed and we had to set up camp along there until we moved closer to the river up north

and that’s when we ran into the Japanese Forces.

Oh yes. It was, someone did Brigade or Div [Division] Headquarters or Brigade Headquarters were there and one of the other battalions because they wouldn’t have landed without support.

Just coconut trees

and grass.

Wide Bay. That was the one where we did the action. I can’t remember the name of the river that ran there.

Yes. We were all standing beside on this riverbank and the Department of Information

Officer, I can’t remember his name. He was well known chap with his camera and the first company was going across the river to cross over and as the forward scouts got over the opposite side and the rest of them were in the middle of the water, walking across, plus the cameraman and just about all hell broke out.

They were firing at us from all angles. Some of the troops got back out of the water. A couple of them were caught on the other bank and were left there. Just set down as best they could. The poor old cameraman lost his camera and it was floating down the river and he went after it and he got his camera. I forget his name. He was a well known cameraman from the war days.

I don’t know, it might have been. It was one of the well known people.

No it wasn’t George Silk.

No.

Might have been him I think. He was a well known fellow.

No.

Oh yes.

Everyone just dropped down where they were and then gradually moved around into better positions and our company finally got across the river and then

pushed the Japanese off the hill on the other side. Then the 2/14th Artillery was called in to hammer them a bit. We were fortunate to have the artillery with us.

Yes. I was on the bank fortunately. Still on the bank and I was watching them. So I just hit the ground that’s all. That’s all I could do. Gradually when it got dark they straightened things out a little bit. But the Japanese were spread out on the hill on the other side. One Tree Hill or something, I think it was.

I don’t remember. I suppose I just carried on getting the gear and equipment ready to keep in contact with the company that was going across the river. Various lots, another river I was standing on the bank, all hell broke loose with the machine gun

fire over our heads. But all you could do was hit the ground and hope you didn’t get hit.

Just get down on the ground.

I guess you must be scared. I don’t know. I don’t remember being scared but I reckon I would have been.

Just thanking my lucky stars that I hadn’t got hit too. Because that was more on my mind than anything else. Yes.

No we used the radios then. Whoever the signals were going with them would have the radio on the back of one chap and

we’d keep in contact with that radio.

Yes.

No. It was a square radio something 28 and a metal one. Metal covered case. You’d carry it on your back. Operate it with the earphones on your head and your gear under your

arms to tune the radio there.

Yes. We had switches on the wire like unless your friend, the other fella was at the back of you and working the back of it.

Yes, oh yes.

One would carry it and the other would operate it if it was necessary.

Either one.

The speaker with the earphones and these things that, with the, they were, adjusting wires I guess you’d call them. They used to hook into the radio.

Just a microphone. Small microphone.

If I can recall it, it just fit on your head like on your jaw or whatever it was, your head and you could speak into it.

Whenever it was established mainly.

Yes.

No, that was the only radio you would have because until they got a signal line through. They’d have to use a radio. That was the only means of communication.

Phone.

Phone as well.

Well.

That’s very strange. I understand it was 20 miles from Wide Bay to Open Bay across the mountains and I understand they had hauled up the cannons from the navy ships that we sunk in Rabaul Harbour up to the mountains and right across the islands. They used to fire

some sort of weapon at us and it would whistle all through the air and they’d be aiming at things where we were heading for. They’d have a practice one day with these things. Sometimes they landed them on us. One of our chaps was killed. He dropped

right at his tent as he was coming out. Killed with the explosion. The word went out that we wanted to capture one of these guns to see what it was because it was an unorthodox thing. When we got one it proved to be a large base of steel and in the middle was a round

type of mortar thing with a cup on the top that was evidently filled with explosive and that. It had a pin in the middle and the pin was on a handle that slid down this barrel and a hook was put on it. On the hook was a length of rope about 40 feet long. So it must have made a hell of a mess when it went off because they had to get out of the way of it. This

is what they were using to fire naval shells. They’d riveted fins onto the bottom of the naval shells and they would sit this over the top of this charge on the barrel and stand back and when they pulled the pin it would set the charge off. It would fire the navy shell down wherever they’d been aiming for the day before. They’d practice to tune

it in. Because otherwise they had no direction finder on it. It wasn’t able to find any direction. Fire it directly straight so they had to try out and practice with it before they could find out what target they were going to hit. What area they were going to hit actually. So that was a real scary noise that

it used to make as the shell was coming over through the air. Goodness knows how many of them they had but they were quite fearsome. They were the big shells. They were bigger than mortar bombs that they were firing at us.

Oh yeah. Well where they were firing them at practice, it was positions we had to go through next time.

Oh yes, and they would be aiming at a certain bit of land and the next day we might have to go through that bit of land. That’s what they would do. But this other day one of our chaps, I said, come out of his tent and ran straight into one as it exploded.

No it would be one of the company boys.

No.

One of the companies. Yes and there was quite a lot of gunfire round the riverbanks. Another occasion we were at another bank. I don’t know if it was near the bay inlet or something but the Japanese on the other sides really let fire with all the small arms fire and the only thing you could do was hit the ground

and stay there ‘til it slowed down a bit.

Yes. I forget whether – when I was on the bike I had a 45 revolver but I think up there I don’t know. A rifle or an Owen machine gun.

Not me . No. I

was a stickler for keeping out of the way of bullets .

Oh yes. Bullets would crack over your head and people get wounded all around you. Our own artillery, Nev Kath was the captain from Queensland. He was with D Company. When one lot of

troops were advancing through a plantation, his company and he was with the artillery officer from the 2/14th Battalion and he asked him to get - the artillery were firing where they wanted them to fire but evidently they were going to far and

not collecting what Nev Kath wanted to. The story went round that Nev asked the Artillery Officer to get his gunners to drop down 100. Evidently they had a little bit of an argument that they might be too close. Anyhow the first shells when they brought it down 100 and hit the top of the trees it come down and Nev Kath and the Officer both went.

The shells hit the top of the treetops and came down amongst them.

Yes. Nev and the Artillery Officer was killed.

Only knew Nev. I didn’t know the Gunnery Officer.

Oh nothing. It was just all in a day’s work. Pushing through, advancing.

I don’t think so.

I don’t know. I think I kept ducking my head lower than the others. That’s probably why I didn’t get hit. But there were quite a few of us

not hit. Quite a few were killed and wounded.

I don’t know. I can’t remember any signallers but being with the rifle companies they were just as liable to get hit.

See you had the two sigs with each rifle company so they were just open to the same sort of danger as the riflemen although the riflemen were out in front.

I don’t think so. No not up there because they kept pulling back. We moved up the island

as the Japanese kept retreating, going back in front of us and we were able to push them right back to outside of Wide Bay. Then the 36th Battalion came over from Open Bay but they only came over. I don’t know how they got across because they were right across the island and they got there in time for the ship to take us

all out.

Oh, it would have been maybe half a year.

Yes. We were up at Wide Bay all that time. That Tol Plantation. Then we moved up to

Wide Bay. I think it was Tol Plantation. As we moved along, yeah it would have taken all that time I reckon.

We were advancing or behind the front line, the front troops. We were on this hill. Well the hill was almost bare of trees by that time. They had all been knocked off and we arranged with the Artillery and the Air

Force. Called the air force in for an air strike and the artillery was to fire the shells to show them where to drop their bombs. That was about 2,000 years ahead of us. Then they were to send a smoke bomb to show the aeroplanes where to

bomb and then strafe. We happened to be going up the hill and of course when Nev Kath and his mate got hit. Set fire to the undergrowth and we were on this hill that was almost denuded of trees not trying to hide from the aeroplanes and still advancing and they came around and strafed us. In the open.

No. Our own air force.

I don’t know if it was the RAAF or the Yanks.

Yes because they mistook the smoke from Nev Kath’s fire as smoke from the Artillery sending a smoke bomb to signal where to strafe. They dropped their bombs 2,000 yards up and then

strafed where the smoke signal came from.

I don’t know.

I just dived down on the ground because we were all in the open and there was no way we were trying to hide from the aeroplanes. Evidently the pilots mistook the smoke from Nev Kath’s bomb that killed Nev Kath as the smoke bomb from the artillery

where they wanted them to strafe.

Not long.

The planes took off and we kept going.

I don’t know how long it would have been.

Oh days.

Yes. Took us a while. Then they got us out and put us on barges and took us out the ship.

No and the 16th Battalion from Western Australia they came and relieved us. They took over from where we were. We got out on the ship

and that’s when we were going down and they were short at Brigade Headquarters at Jacquinot Bay. Short of operators so they unloaded me off. Attached me to the Brigade Headquarters as an operator. Both the switch and radio.

I suppose it would have turned out about 2 or three months we were having a knuckle on with them. Yeah from Wide Bay.

No.

Oh they were generally pretty go-happy. Different ones would yell out. I think that was like to make a bit of bravado and cheer themselves up a bit.

Oh

just chiack [tease] each other and yell at each other so I guess that was just one way of relieving the tension that they had.

On any occasion. When you were going past them. If someone was being overtaken, they’d been chiacking. Telling you to do a

good job up there and keep them away from us. Anything just tension relieving.

Oh yes.

Oh no. Just general chiacking. You know. Always having a joke about something.

I suppose I was concerned. What I was going to do next. I was fortunate. Different times I got the gunfire went over the head, hear it cracking

but I was never hit sort of thing. I don’t recall any of my friends being close beside me getting hit either but quite a few of the boys were hit by gunfire.

I didn’t see it no. Not myself.

Oh, all the sig platoon. The whole lot.

Oh yes the whole unit. Yes. Oh yes. Yell out at each other jokingly. Having a chiack as they call it all the time and joking with each other.

1,000. When we were up in the islands we were only about 700 and something. Originally we were 1,000 strong but I think later we were only about a 700 strong.

About 30.

No. I don’t think there was any difference because we relied on them and they relied on us so there was a sort of sense of dependency on everyone. I’d reckon. Especially when you were going past them, they’d

yell out these jokes and funny sayings.

Anyone.

Oh there was Darcy Armstrong, Vic Bennett. I think Vic’s dead now.

We were all sort of pooled in a pool. We had no specific friends. When I first joined I had Eric Richardson and Vic Bennett. We were always together, sort of thing.

No. We all

joined the same day so I guess that’s why we stuck together. Eric and I were both in Don Company and then Vic and I were both in the signals and Eric stopped at D Company. So they were distributed around. You’d have a lot of friendships with a whole, with the whole lot.

Yes.

Oh yes, you were attached to the company.

Yes, you see

because each company had the sigs attached to them. That was when we were up in action. So they were with that company all along. And the same with Headquarters. You’d probably have 8 or 9 signallers still attached to Headquarters. But each company had a couple of sigs to go with –

where the company went, the sigs went.

I think it was 2.

No because I was with the Headquarter Company and so get a mixture of duties.

I’d have one lot of duties and the other signallers still with Headquarter Company would have other duties.

Just radio and going out when the company was stabled. Running in a wire, phone wire, getting a SIT REP report each night on the radio.

What had happened during the day. You’d record the report each night.

Yes.

Yes.

Pretty crook because I was watching the ship go off again. Going south

without me.

Oh yes. I was lonesome. I think that would be the term so but then it soon settled down and I was attached to the Brigade Headquarters and just hoped it didn’t take too long. I don’t think it took too long. I don’t know how long I was there with them but then I finally got

out and caught up with the unit again in Australia that time.

Radio operator and signaller. Taking the radio and switchboard but mainly radio because they were short of operators.

Had to receive the SIT REPs [situation reports] from each

company at night time. Take down what had happened and what they were reporting.

Yes.

No.

No.

Yes it was the Div Headquarters or the Brigade Headquarters. So I

suppose that was Div Headquarters too.

I think it was an old plantation. I think pre- war it was a solid plantation because there were plantations all along the coastline there. Most of the

plantations were where we camped. In amongst all the coconut trees and all that.

Not in New Britain.

In New Guinea at Cape Killerton and that. All the Gona villages we had quite a time with all the

kids there. Moses was one of the kids. I remember Moses and his brother and they used to come round and we’d give them bits of food. We got on well with the natives in New Guinea. There were none up in New Britain.

They used to like to swear because they thought that’s what all Australians did. We’d go walking around on the way to doing some job and they’d follow you along all the way. They’d have a wonderful time just following the troops along.

Oh, just for company

I think. They used to like it because they were with the soldiers. Yes, they were quite good the natives there at all those Gona villages. They were quite friendly.

No.

Children yes. We’d have all the signal wires going past their thing

and as we were going along checking them and that, the kids would all line up and follow you because that was good to be with the soldiers.

Oh yes. We used to give them sweets. I don’t think we gave them smokes but everything for the kids. They were all good kids. The natives.

I don’t even know where I landed at. After I left Jacquinot Bay. I don’t know if I came on a ship of whether I was flown back. I think it must have been a ship.

Not long after the battalion came down.

Oh, it would be weeks I’d

reckon because the operators until things straightened out with the operators.

Oh, they were short of operators and that’s why they pulled me off the ship to act as an operator for the radio and switch.

Yeah, it must have been because we had leave. Yes. Sometime in ’45. We had leave and we were on our way. Yeah we were moving up again. We were outside of Brisbane someplace

when the war finished because we happened to be in Brisbane the day that war was declared and I think. But anyhow we on our way again to head overseas again.

When the war finished. Mmm.

Well I think we were camped at Narellan I think. Because I used to get the train out from Newtown out to Campbelltown then get the bus from there to Narellan.

Yes, it was quite good. Yes used to get on really well together. They used to enjoy coming and watching our rugby league. They used to laugh and say “Gee, you could get killed out there” but they used to enjoy the Australian Rules and the rugby league

as well as just being friendly. It was quite a good combination of friendship.

It probably did back here I

think when the troops were on leave and that. I think they had quite a few bits of tiffs as you call them. We didn’t have that. Never ran into it myself personally but I have heard where different Australians and Americans probably had a fight somewhere.

Didn’t get on too well because the girlfriends. Stealing the girls. But I never struck any animosity with them at all.

Oh yes, yes.

Oh it was just the newspaper reports that the Negroes in the south of America were being thumped and kicked and brutalised

because they were black and there was a lot of Ku Klux Klan business going on with them. They were trying to get rid of them, the black Americans. I had friends white and black and I thought well, might shake them up a bit if I was to send the medal back. The only one outside of America and

I thought I was going to send it back but I never got around to it. Like most things, I never get around to doing things.

Yes. Because I had met so many friendly good types of fellows with the American black fellow.

During the war days yes. I was just upset with the way they were being treated in the South but I think they’ve overcome all that now. Most of it anyhow.

Not once. No. My gun was never fired. Too busy ducking away from the others . No. I never fired a shot.

Oh, quite a few times. Especially when they started shooting when we were crossing the river.

I thought we might have to use the weapon but I never got around to it. I used the radio and the telephones all the time so my time was taken up mainly with signalling and receiving signals.

Yes. So I didn’t have

any reason to fire the rifle or the machine gun whichever I had.

Oh yes, yes.

I don’t know. The main thing that stuck in our minds was all the

tales that had come back from Malaya so we didn’t like them at all. But I didn’t think of them as fighters or any such things. No. I didn’t consider that, dear.

I guess I must have just thought they were like us. Being told what to do and they were doing it. I don’t think I ever consciously anyhow. No.

Oh yes, yes. Especially the ex-prisoners of war. They were so badly treated. I was fortunate because I had a cousin, Andrew Burns. He was in the 8th Division and in the days in Darwin I

was going to apply to get a transfer to the same unit as him but I never got around to it. Which I was fortunate I never got around to it and he was taken prisoner of war and they sent him to Japan. He served his time in Japan so he was more fortunate than some of those that remained on the island, up around

Malaya and so on and Borneo. So it was just as well I didn’t apply to join the 8th Division.

Yes. That’s another time I didn’t get around to it. I was going to. I intended to do it.

Yes. Andrew survived

it. He was treated fairly well in Japan but he was lucky to go.

I don’t know. I don’t see Andrew. Haven’t seen him for many, many years.

Oh, pretty rugged on occasion. To start with we had to make a camp in an old plantation that was just overrun with grass and we had to clean it all up and pitch our tents. Make a camp inside that.

Yes, it wasn’t too bad. As long as you were kept busy. That was the main thing to do. Kept you going all the time.

No. Not as badly as Darwin was the worst place in the wet season.

I think the main thing about New Britain was that you couldn’t take a shower or a bath. Couldn’t get cleaned up every day because there was – you weren’t near the water at all. On occasions you were near the water and be able to swim in the river or the thing but you were forever dirty because you couldn’t get clean every day.

One time anyone who wanted to be dirty, boy you could be dirty all the time. Instead of cleaning yourself up. I don’t recall the heat being as bad in the islands as Darwin either. I guess it was pretty hot but not as bad as Darwin weather in the wet season.

Oh yes, I had malaria and the other Dengue Fever. I had Dengue Fever and I had malaria.

I don’t know. I think it would have been in New Guinea I think. Dengue I think was in Darwin. I think I had Dengue Fever in Darwin.

I think I had Dengue Fever in Darwin.

In Holland Park in Brisbane I finished up with malaria too. We were camping there and the 8th Division was coming back on the ship and I was working on the wharves at Brisbane and I finished up in Holland Park, the hospital with malaria too. That was when I was back here.

After the war. Because we were welcoming back the 8th Division fellows on the wharves at Brisbane.

It was very pleasing.

Everyone seemed to be out in the streets and cheering anything anyone did or said. Didn’t matter what anyone did or said, everyone cheered. It was such a release of tension. Much feeling of contentment. It was quite good to know that the war was finished and we

would be stuck, getting out of the army again.

Oh yes. I was with my wife all through the leave. We had leave and then we went up to,

I think we went to Queensland and were outside Brisbane getting ready to take off again when the war finished I think.

It was just like the usual one because we were always getting back together again. After being apart for so long.

Oh yes. Yes.

No.

We were out in the street somewhere and someone said the war had finished. Then there was great gatherings in the street. Everyone cheering and having an enjoyable time. Jumping up and down, clapping

and cheering. So, it didn’t last long. We soon passed over that.

As I said, we were outside of Brisbane there somewhere and I think it was because the 8th Division was coming back. We had to go down

and assist with unloading of the ship with the troops and that.

Just like any other unit. Just greet them. If you spoke to anyone only greet them. Say “Good on ya Digger”.

I don’t remember,

dear. No.

Yes. Prisoners of war. Some of them were pretty thin I guess but I don’t remember too much about what I was doing then or where I was. I don’t even know – I can’t even put my finger on which camp I was in at that time.

I know it was pleasing, very pleasing for the war to finish. Yes.

22nd November 1945. .

Oh yes. . It was at the Showground I think. The Sydney Showground.

Well we moved into Mother’s place up at Albert Street, Newtown and then I went and joined the Police Force in January. Yes. Joined the Police Form in January.

Oh, it was quite good. I forget where my

younger brother was. He was in the army too. I don’t know where he was stationed. He was in Borneo and I don’t know when he came back. It was good to see my sisters and all the family. My wife’s people. Yes it was quite pleasant to be back and getting out of the army all the time. We were waiting for it.

Get that bit of paper, discharge.

Oh yes. She was up around late ‘70s at the time. She was getting a bit on then. Settled down a bit. She had no occasion to give me a clip under

the ear or with the pot stick at that time. .

I don’t know. It had been something I’d thought of all my life and being a policeman. Even when I was kid I was talking about being a policeman. So I just

went and joined up and that was it. But I still kept drinking, that was the problem. That’s why I finished up having to resign after 5 years. After 5 years I resigned from the Police Force because of the grog.

I

guess I’d be wobbly on my feet and the hours, spending the long hours drinking. I wouldn’t only go for an hour or 2. I’d go all day and well into the night.

Yes. Often times I’d go over of an afternoon at the bridge at Newtown there and grog on and instead of going home

for tea I’d grog on a bit longer and then get home for tea late. So it was, just got me down. Then when they put me in plain clothes in the Police Force and I worked with the detectives at Newtown. Operated with the detectives at Newtown then I went to the Detective Jack Whitfield over at Mosman. He and I were the 2 plain clothes Police there.

The Buena Vista. That’s the hotel over at Mosman. I’d drink over there even when I was supposed to be on duty and just grog on and on and on. Almost became never ending, you know.

No. I never

got aggressive.

I think with some of them. Some of them were quite all right but I just couldn’t take it. Just grogged on and on and on. I had no willpower I think at the time.

I reckon she would have had a terrible time. Wherever I went I just drank on. Grog shop. Forget time and say “Oh I’ll go in a minute”. A minute would come and another beer and then “I’ll go in a minute”.

That’s how it would go on. So it became a real problem. Wish it had never happened. Because I gave it up too late. Everything was ruined by the time I gave it up. There was no money and nothing. But it was a bit late by that time. Where I should have been saving all the years I wasn’t

doing it.

Well, I was fortunate that when I was on the beat at Newtown for something to do. I remember one night I was walking down by St Peters so I just decided to check number

plates of the vehicles against the registration slips on the front. I got down near the St Peters Theatre and I came across a panel van type of vehicle that plates didn’t coincide with the registration

label. It was outside an engineering works. So I rang through about the papers and the plates had been reported lost for 12 months. So the detectives got onto that and it happened to be the chap from the engineering works over

the side. He’d been defrauding the State for quite a long time and they caught up with him. So I suppose they thought I did such a good job they had me transferred into the Detective branch out there just because of that. Later I went across to

Mosman with Jack Whitfield in the Detectives and then I think it was in December, Harry Boswell decided to start a group they called 21 Division and I think it was because I had been fighting previously, they

put me into the 21 Division and a little old fat ex-detective, Jock Boyd from over North Sydney way and Jock and I used to work on the motorbikes together. So I worked on 21 Division for quite a long time.

Just to travel all over Sydney and

keep the crowds of hoodlums moving and arresting anyone who was in fights and cleaning Sydney up actually. So we did a pretty fair job. As you’d go along on the bike and if there was a group on the corner, they’d take off. It’s a pity they still didn’t have something like that nowadays

in different areas. So then I got transferred to Redfern for some reason or other. I don’t know how I got over there. Back in uniform. Then I applied for a country posting and I went to a little town called Bonalbo, that’s out from Casino on the one man station up there.

Once again I still kept drinking.

We had one boy in 1946. He was born. 29th October 1946, John was born and then when we were at Casino, Laurie that was in 1950 then,

couldn’t have been ’50, he’s 60. I don’t know anyhow he was born when we were at Casino. Laurie. Then Vicki was born 10 years later after that.

21? No, I can’t recall.

No, they were all in Surry Hills and that. No I didn’t come across

them. We did break up quite lots of fellas but we used to work a different area every night. You might be allocated out to Parramatta, Newtown, Redfern so we went from area to area. But I didn’t do anything outstanding I don’t think. The most outstanding thing was finding that truck with the false plates on it

that were supposed to have been reported lost for 12 months. Biggest job I did as a Detective.

Yes. Oh yes. The Detectives thought it was a great find.

Oh it was quite good. I started a gymnasium, gymnastic thing in the Memorial Hall for children of the District and I taught them how to leap vaulting horses and skipping. Doing lots of physical work. In the main street of the town then we used to put on exhibitions with the children.

It was quite accepted in that township that the children were given entertainment and something to do. They liked doing it. So it went over quite well with the town that I started the gymnasium. Taught the children a lot of gymnastics. We even went into Casino and gave an exhibition

in there one time doing the gymnastics. So it went over quite well with the township. The kids were quite good and pleased to have something to do. They’d only heard of it I suppose. Doing exercises and that on the vaulting horse. Some of them turned out very good.

Oh yes. I enjoyed it while I was there. As I say, I got out of hand with the grog. I’d go down to the pub and drink on and on. Yes, it was pretty crook. We had the RSL [Returned and Services League] there as well

and the Rugby League Football Team. I was a member, played Rugby League. So I took part in a lot of functions in the township.

Yes. I joined Newtown RSL. Then I transferred to Bankstown RSL after that.

Well, at that time the RSL was as I say, the RSL but now the RSL Clubs, there’s not too many left now. So they’ve all become like you can’t. If I wanted to go and see the

Pensions Officer in Bankstown, I’d have a job to catch him I guess because they have so many other – you don’t have to be an ex-servicemen now to join the clubs but we still have the RSL meetings but I don’t get around to them nowadays.

I also belong to Earlwood Ex-Servicemen’s Club and the only reason I keep going there annually – I renew it because when I die they have a mortality fund and so it might save my wife a bit of money on the funeral.

But I don’t attend meetings now. Our own Battalion Association, I used to be the President of the Committee. I had to give that away. I don’t follow up with that now. I only go and see them on Anzac Day, pay my $30.00 dues and don’t see them ‘til next Anzac Day.

I’ve given all sorts of club life and that away now. I pay my dues each year and that’s it.

I don’t know.

Oh, that was important to keep in touch with the old

battalion and as a matter of fact at that time we used to get quite a good roll-up each time we had a meeting. But it gradually died off. Old Harry Pascoe is now the President so we only see each other on Anzac Day.

Oh, it’s a day to see the old faces and have a bit of a laugh and a bit of a get together. The thing is with a reunion like that, you always remember all the funny things. You don’t remember any of the bitter things so you only remember the comical things and you all have a big laugh. Everyone seems to be laughing all the time.

I think that’s quite noticeable even the groups in the street. They’re all happy and laughing because they only remember the good times. Bad times they don’t remember.

Oh yes. They all shape up and want to have a go and say “Here’s the champ”. “How ya fighting?”

Oh yes, that’s on every year they bring it up which is quite nice that they still remember all that.

I don’t think so. You don’t see it. They don’t worry about any of the

bad things that happened. As I say, you recall all the happy events of the meetings, whatever you did throughout your war life. It happens, it seems to be with every unit. All the same. Big groups stand outside a hotel near

in Sydney just down from – we meet at the Sports Club. There’s a hotel nearby and there is quite a number of groups that attend there each year. Gather at the hotel and each and every bunch of them are all laughing and joking. It’s pretty common throughout the returned services.

You only remember all the good times that happened and they have a really enjoyable day.

The history. You’ve got to have the memory of the ex-servicemen.

One year there was – my young grandson was coming down so I pinned my miniature medals on his coat and he came with me. That particular year there was no ex Officer turned up at the march so they asked me would I lead the parade and Daniel was out in front with me of the

Battalion Group and it was a wonderful thing to see all the people along the street come running out and taking his photograph because he was marching with me with all these miniatures. Yet the RSL said not to have any children in the marches. They waived that this year. They waived it. They can allow small children into the march now. All the children, grandchildren and that.

But that was quite nice for Daniel to be photographed by so many people as he went along the street too.

Yes. The crowds are growing. Getting more support especially I noticed this year there were a lot of young groups and young fellows who’d generally you’d be saying they were hoodlums.

They were in the crowds and yelling out and cheering as well. All the young groups. Probably football teams and so on. But it was very nice to see them there.

No. We cleaned up Sydney. That was in ’46. ’47. I think it was in ’47 or ’48, I don’t

remember now when it commenced but Harry Boswell was the Officer in charge. They’d allocate us a district. One night there might be 2 or three motorbikes. We had a motorbike and sidecar.

Maybe three or 4 bikes would be allocated to different suburbs. I think there was 110 of us in the 21 Division and we were just sent around. Any breaking of the law, the people were thrown in the sidecars and taken in and arrested and of course going around districts at night. If there was anyone on the corner they’d all run

away and clear out before you’d even get off your bike to speak with them. They would clear the streets. So it was very well organised and Harry was a very good boss. Harry Boswell. We had some tough old fellas in that. Mickey Bulla and Jack

Davidson from Parramatta. Mickey kept gangs really off the streets. No doubt about that. He was very good. But they did a marvellous job the 21 Division at that stage. Keeping Sydney clean.

Yeah, well 21 Division was formed purposely to clean Sydney streets. Keep them clean and people could walk along them, use the streets without any fear.

In ’54 or ’55 I think. ’54 I rejoined the army, the permanent army and I joined the Military Police then. I attended a class

that was being run by Major Seaton in Melbourne. The Military Police down there had a Military Police School and after the school finished he asked me to transfer down there to his unit but I told him I didn’t want to transfer down there again. I wanted to stay in Sydney

so he said he would get me down there, so next thing I was nominated to attend and serve as an instructor on the Military Police Schools that were held at his camp, his base camp. Three or 4 times a year I used to go down and lecture at the Military Police Schools in Melbourne.

That went on for a couple of years.

No. No I went on a dairy farm at Old Bonalbo. I went broke on that because I’d leave the thing of a day and walk to Bonalbo, 7 miles and get on the grog

and then walk back again. It was after my wife had finished milking and all that.

Because of the grog. To go share farming on the dairy actually. We thought it would work out. Getting me out of town where there was no beer. Didn’t

work. I still, every other day, I’d walk all the way, as I said, 7 miles to Bonalbo, still drink then get back again when the cows had been milked and that. So I was doing nothing. I left the farm and went back and that’s when I rejoined the army.

I think it made my wife unhappy quite a few times but she must have done a marvellous job with the kids because they’re all pretty well off and they were all brilliant at school.

Oh I guess so.

I’d very rarely be home so I guess they must have known.

No. No. It wasn’t until I got a cancer in the throat and

no, no the ulcerated stomach. The cancer in the throat stopped me smoking. I was awake one night at Yagoona and they had to get the ambulance for me and they took me off to Bankstown Hospital and operated on the ulcers which had been bleeding and

I got out of the hospital and then I kept going. A couple of years later I was drinking down at the Hume Hotel, once more the ulcers burst in my stomach and I collapsed on the floor. They had an ambulance called, picked me up and took me to Bankstown Hospital and I operated on the same day.

When I came out that was the end of the drinking. I only drank lemonade and water from then on. That was many years ago now.

Oh no problem because this ulcerated stomach made the difference. It really rang the bells to

stop drinking.

No and the same with the cigarettes. I just threw the cigarettes in the drawer when I had the cancer in the throat and just stopped that straight away.

Yes.

I wish. But it had to take the two serious things

to make me, the ulcers first with the beer and cancer with the cigarettes so they were really good punishments for me to cop and that woke me up to stop drinking.

Well, I just called in one day at the Eastern Command and the Major told me I was going to Korea as the NCO [non-Commissioned Officer] in charge of the contingent there because I’d been promoted to Sergeant for a couple of years then. I went to Inchon and took over the Commonwealth

Contingent in Korea which consisted of mainly English soldiers, one Kiwi, and one Australian who went up with me. A young Crampton boy. He went up with me in the plane so that was the composition.

Not much.

No.

Only that it was North and South. Yes.

No. Only when they told me I’d take over,

be in charge of the Commonwealth Contingent in Korea. I got up there. There was a British Warrant Officer but he was in the SIB which was the position I had here in Sydney, Special Investigation Branch of the Military Police here in Sydney. I was in charge of that.

This English Warrant Officer, he was also from the Military Police but he was Investigation Branch up in Korea. So I was the – had a British Officer and myself. The rest of the Corporals were from as I say, from England, one New Zealander and one Australian Corporal.

I was the NCO in charge of, as I say, the Commonwealth Contingent. We were stationed at Inchon and just patrolled all the Inchon area because that’s where the camp

was at that time. There was the Headquarters of the British Forces down about 7 or 8 miles from Inchon on the waterfront so it was only a matter of patrolling between this district and Inchon. Not much in Seoul and the only other

thing I had to do was do all escorts for the different officers, the Brigadiers and visitors all coming to the – like Lord Selkirk from England. He came out on a visit and I had to escort him all around different camps and meetings and parades and so on. My main thing as well as running the Commonwealth

Contingent was to move around with all the visiting guests that would arrive. Syngman Ree was the President then of Korea and I’d have to escort these people up to Syngman Ree.

Dignitaries around and to visit Syngman Ree. I’d take them up and he was way out in the open. Isolated. There was a gate here but his house was three or four miles further in. That’s how protected he was.

He was isolated from everyone. Escort the dignitaries around to the parades wherever they were to go in Korea.

No. It was ’56 when I went up there and I came back in ’57,

so it was 1956 and the war had been completed then.

I don’t know. 9 months or 12 months, something like that. Yes.

Just terrible. .

Oh it was all farms like Asian farms with the water everywhere and the mud and then Inchon was quite a, wasn’t a clean town but

according to Korean things it was a pretty big place. Not much going on. We had a big parade there one day. There was Korean Police. There were 4 lines. The Commonwealth Contingent in Korea but it must have been

all the others were Korean. Oh, Americans. American Patrols, Police as well. That was a big parade through Inchon but it wasn’t much to do there.

Drank beer in the Mess.

They’d close the Mess up of a night. All the other Sergeants would go to bed and I’d stay on and grog, grog and grog.

Yes. It was terrible stuff. Took me a lot of years to wake up to it, didn’t it. Yes.

A bit late. All my life has gone.

I came back and I was at Sydney again at South Head. I was still in control of the Investigation Section Branch. Whatever you would like to call it.

I worked in with the Police in NSW on quite a number of cases and went on. Finally I got sick and tired of drinking all the time and I thought if I keep this up they’re going to throw me out. I put an application in that I

was drinking too much and that I’d get behind in debts and then there would be a discharge from the army so I requested I be discharged then. I was discharged 2 years before I was supposed to be. After 10 years I applied for a discharge and the discharge was granted. So I got out.

That was because of the grog.

I started off as a Private Inquiry Agent with Websters and going around and doing divorce raids and such and I transferred to

another lot at Crows Nest and that was all insurance investigation and so on.

Well Websters would raid a house or a flat and get in and take photographs of the people in bed and

so on.

Yes.

Yes.

Oh yes. It would be terrible for the majority of them I think. They got a terrific shock. Someone breaking in and flashing lights. Lights flashing around them.

I think it would have been awful for them.

Every day. Yes. Mainly it would be a lot of surveillance because you had to follow them and see what was going on for quite a number of days until you could see the routine they were getting in. Then it would result

in a raid. Then I was over at Crows Nest. Then I branched out on my own with the Eagle Star Insurance Company and a couple of other companies I was able to get work from. It was all right. I was doing really well. Putting a lot of money in the

bank. Doing a lot of travelling. Mainly a lot of country work. The investigations.

Yes.

Mainly it was - might be

a fire, might be a loss, might be a theft, might be a burglary. Might be someone claiming workers compensation for a crook back. I did a lot of country work. Did a lot of country trips. I was doing quite well but I just kept up on the grog again and

slowed things down. I was getting big money when I was working but the grog gradually got hold of me again and I slowed down and I finished up working then with St Vincent de Paul at their rag factory over at Leichhardt and then I got the aged pension.

I was doing the office work there. The payroll for the staff and then that was for a while and then I was 59 years old and I applied for the pension and got that and retired then.

So it was ruined – the life. I hate grog.

I think it was my nature when I was fighting. I could beat this bloke and that bloke and that bloke and that bloke. I could beat anyone so I become a big swelled head thing. Thought I was the best in the world. I can drink beer all the time

and keep going. I think that was the ego got behind and made me think that I could beat the world by drinking grog. I think that’s how developed but it got so bad.

No, I don’t think so, dear. I was still the same. As I say, if I go to a reunion now they say “Hey Champ!” and all shape up as I walk past. They shape up to spar with me so it’s still there.

So it couldn’t have been that I don’t think. The friendship and that they all gave me because of the boxing I think, it’s still there and it’s a point of topic – something to talk about when you get together with the mob.

I think army life is really quite good.

Everyone should be in it.

I don’t know because you have a lot of friendship and it’s a good hard life. Keeps you fit. Even though I was a drunkard I was still very fit.

Yes. I think it’s a wonderful thing that everyone should go through some sort of service career.

John was born in 1946. That’s the older one. When we were at Casino, Laurie was born. He was the other son. Then in 1960 Vicki was born. The daughter. So there’s just the three of them.

They all went to school at Yagoona Public School and then onto the Bass High School. As a matter of fact John was one of the original pupils the year that Bass High School opened. So they spent their life here. He was a great baseball player when he was a young kid.

Vicki is a very good horsewoman. She’s trains horses now and agists them on the land she’s got down Mornington way. Laurie has his own trucks.

Doing all right.

Yes. Lots and lots of grandchildren. Laurie married a girl that had four children before he married and he has a son of his own now.

That’s the basketball player. Greg that’s his son. John has two children. One is a solicitor and the other is a flying instructor for pilots and a Vicki of course teaches riding,

horse riding and agists the horses on the bit of land and she has a saddlery in the little township. Sells horse harness and so on and equipment for the horses. She might be all right. But she’s now also got a job while her partner runs

the shop she works somewhere else now. She’s a very good office girl. That’s all the children. She has Daniel and Lochie. She has two boys. Two little boys. John has the girl and the boy and Laurie has the

four stepsons and his own son. That’s the full family now.

Yes. .

No, no I can’t think of anything, dear. Can’t think of anything else to add on.

Yes.

Oh, I’d like to thank you for being here.

Thanks very much to you and to Graham, dear. Thank you.