Francis Stanton
Archive number: 822
Preferred name: Frank
Date interviewed: 29 September, 2003

Served with:

2/3rd Battalion

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Francis Stanton 0822

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Transcript

Tape 01

01:00:40:00

Frank, can you give us a very brief summary of your life to date?
My life to date. Well, how far do I go back?
Well as I said before, just the main highlights, don’t need any detail but just say when and where

01:01:00:00

you were born and then just give us the, you know, such main points as you were educated at, you went to war on a certain date and so forth, no details as I said at this stage, we go back into the details on (UNCLEAR).
Well going back to my birth I was born on the eighteenth of December 1914 and born in Concord, New South Wales. And I went to a

01:01:30:00

variety of public schools, at one stage we went to live in the mountains, a place called Warrimoo. I went to Parramatta High School and I was there, I did six years there because I missed out one year and I finished up Dux of the school at

01:02:00:00

Parramatta. The university exhibition took me to Sydney University, I think, oh goodness knows, in the thirties anyway. And I did science there but I had to drop out, the trouble was the Stantons

01:02:30:00

had lots of push and so on and so forth but they never had any money. And I was trying to do university on tuppence a day which was a tram fare from, oh two miles walk to Five Dock and catch the tram and get off at University Stairs and so on which became a bit grim. And course that was

01:03:00:00

heights of the Depression and I took a hell of a long while to get a job. But eventually I got a job with a stock and share broker, I was there for three or four years, Pitt Street. And I finally, I blew that one, he was talking monkeys and peanuts and so on and so forth,

01:03:30:00

you only got peanuts there for stock and share broker round and you were expected to do everything. Anyway he wanted me there with some menial job one day to take his shoes round to get them mended and I jacked up and I got the sack. I worked after that with a chap I’d known there, I did about a year in a building business.

01:04:00:00

Strangely the office was in Martin Place directly opposite the town hall, ah, the GPO [General Post Office] clock. And I gave that one up and I went to Canberra and I had a part time job in Canberra. I worked in the stores branch there for a while and ordering

01:04:30:00

goods which used to come up to the railway there in a special truck which was loaded up in Darling Harbour and it came along and there were. And this was the time when the Duke of Gloucester was Governor General and they were ordering special things for his wife, the Duchess. And I

01:05:00:00

remember one thing that this funny little clerk of works used to come in and order things. But he wanted for the Duchess a symphonic lavatory seat, and siphonic of course. And it was, but then the war came along and some

01:05:30:00

time in October ‘39 I put my name down for the book and went into camp I think it was towards the end of October. And that’s the sort of précis of my life up to the start of the war I should say. Although I might say that I was born

01:06:00:00

in the first few months of the First World War and I went right through the Second World War.
Now of course we’ll come to the detail of your Second World War activities in a moment but could you give us a brief précis of your life after the war?
Well after the war I served out my

01:06:30:00

full six years in the AIF [Australian Imperial Force] and I was a Captain at the end of the war and I could see it coming. I was at that stage on General Staff at Land Headquarters in Melbourne and a bit fed up, I was trying to get back to my unit. And incidentally I was 2/3rd Battalion all the

01:07:00:00

way through and I was seconded at various things. Anyway I knew that having had this little job in Canberra before the war I was entitled to be re-employed by ‘em. So I wrote ‘em a letter and said, “Well you know I’d like a job in Canberra and I don’t want any deadhead departments like the Department of Interior or anything like that, I prefer the Treasury.” That’s where I went,

01:07:30:00

and I had twenty years at the Treasury and I started off as a base-grade clerk and I finished up as a First Assistant Secretary, a show which was near the top. And with quite a lot of influence and so on, I

01:08:00:00

was the expert of aviation and various other transport things. And I spent some time as the Treasury Representative on the Stevedoring Industry Commission they called it in those days. And

01:08:30:00

with all the water under it, there were three men on it and we used to sort of run the waterfront part, that was very interesting too. And I did a lot of other interesting things, I was never on any sort of routine financial job in the Treasury, I was always on policy departments or

01:09:00:00

divisions they were. And I got tangled up in rail standardisation and beef cattle roads in Western Australia and Northern Territory. And I used to

01:09:30:00

do the Postmaster General’s thing. They’d refer to me any request for more money and all the rest of it in the business. And I, just by accident adopted close ties with the

01:10:00:00

Second Secretary to the Treasury, a man named Watt and I didn’t act as a First Assistant to him but I was more or less a personal friend that he would refer all these things to me and so on. And that way I got tangled up in the airline game and

01:10:30:00

I was there at the early struggles of the founding of Trans Australia Airlines. And I went through, I did all the groundwork in the purchase by the Commonwealth of the shares in Qantas [airlines]. And then when we got a new

01:11:00:00

Secretary of the Treasury, Sir Roland Wilson, and he came in and he knew nothing about aircraft and so on, he was a civil engineer sort of non professional. But he sent for me one day and I went in and he talked about

01:11:30:00

the airlines and what was doing. And he said, “Would you like a drink?” I said, “Yes I would.” And he had a nice little room behind his big office, so I went in and he came out with a new bottle of sherry and plonked it down. He said, “Can you drink sherry?” I said, “I can drink anything.” And

01:12:00:00

anyway we had a lovely time and we finished this bottle of sherry in one session between us and I think I sort of won that encounter, I was a bit smarter than he. And we finished up he was telling me about the time that when he was a Rhodes Scholar of course, at Oxford, they

01:12:30:00

had a sports day and he said he was pretty well tanked up, he said, “You know, one way and another,” he said, “but in the pole vault,” he said, “but they had me in the pole vault and there was one point in the point score between Oxford and Cambridge.” And they said, “Well you gotta go in the pole vault and just get us this one point.” So

01:13:00:00

he said, “I couldn’t quite see the sticks anywhere so I raced in.” And he said, “Well,” he said, “all I remember is they got a photo of me going head first over the crossbar in pole vault.” He said, “But we won.” See, that was the point. But he was a very interesting character, Wilson.
I believe so. Now Frank we might come back to these sorts of detail later but as I said we just need a

01:13:30:00

very brief précis at this stage. For how long did you remain with Treasury?
Twenty years, full twenty years and then I done a couple of overseas trips on telecommunication things and I knew that pretty well. And I knew Trevor Howsley who was running the

01:14:00:00

Overseas Telecommunications Commission in those days. And he’d propositioned me a couple of times (UNCLEAR), and so finally I wrote to him and he offered me the job of Assistant General Manager at OTC in Sydney and I took it up, that’s when I left the Treasury. So I remained seconded in the Commonwealth Public Service in that way,

01:14:30:00

and I did I think was ten and a half years with OTC in which I became the satellite expert.
You became the satellite expert?
Well I did umpteen special committee meetings in Washington

01:15:00:00

and when we were working out a world agreement between oh, eighty or ninety countries and I used to do, oh, I suppose I’d go for three weeks at a time in Washington and go back. And eventually it worked out; we formed the International Air Transport, no

01:15:30:00

Intelsat, International Telecommunication Satellite Corporation. And then I was a member of that and I had to go to regular meetings and every year we had a special away meeting, away from Washington. For instance I went to meetings in

01:16:00:00

Naples, Rio de Janeiro, Honolulu oh and a couple of others,
Now Frank...
about two weeks at a time you know.
Once again this is probably a little too much detail for us at this stage of the interview. So you stayed with OTC for what, about ten and a half years did you say?
Oh something like that, yes.
What happened after that?

01:16:30:00

Well I retired in I think it was 1976 there. And luckily my retirement coincided with a

01:17:00:00

new superannuation scheme that they started at that stage, and consequently I’m still in the same scheme and the same thing and I’m still drawing superannuation some twenty years after the event. But...
And of course you married and you had, what, several children?
Four children.
Four children altogether.

01:17:30:00

Two boys and two girls.
Sorry two boys and..?
Two girls.
Two girls yeah. Well Frank that’s a very good summary and it’s always a very good way to begin the interview because we can then ourselves identify the highlights and go back and focus on some of these things, so thanks for that. Now some of what follows in terms of the interview may be a little bit repetitive but I’ll just take you right back to the beginning and

01:18:00:00

you did mention earlier when and where you were born. So could you tell me a bit about your parents?
Well yes, my father was born in Sydney and he had a couple of brothers and a sister and so on.

01:18:30:00

They were sort of just one spot above working class, they always were I think good church people and doing this and that. Anyway I didn’t know very much about it, I was born

01:19:00:00

after, that’s right it was shortly,
Well of course...
What?
of course you said before you were born at the outbreak of the Great War [First World War]?
Well that’s right, it was about three months after the start of the war, something like that. So and then at some

01:19:30:00

stage, Dad went off to war in the 6th Light Horse Regiment, he served in Egypt and what was then Palestine and so on. He was a great horseman and so on, anyway one of their rogue horses caught him

01:20:00:00

and rode over backwards and injured him at some stage and he was invalided out of that war so. And from then on we had a succession of births and so on in the family and we finished up, I think there were nine of us in the finish, one that I never saw, one little boy that was went on,

01:20:30:00

You’ve mentioned your father’s involvement in the Light Horse, did your father ever talk much about his World War I experiences?
No, I was thinking not only of my father but my grandfather who was a fine old man and so on and so forth. And

01:21:00:00

I knew him, well I was fourteen when he died and he told me, I used to do his library books for him, you know, get books from the library and carry them and so on and so forth. And he’d talk on all sorts of things; he never mentioned his father or his mother or his family at all. But and then it came down to, my father, well

01:21:30:00

he had stories from everywhere one way another, he was, and he worked in the bush and he’d done this and he’d by accident become a very good horseman. And knew a lot about his family I suppose because then we lived near them

01:22:00:00

when we, his brothers and one brother had five boys and I knew them all very well, but so I was pretty up with them. And incidentally of those five boys there’s only one left now at the moment.
Now did anyone else that you knew talk about World War I at all?

01:22:30:00

No. I’ve often regretted that I didn’t sort of go out for information, that it was, I think it was about 1980 before I started in genealogy, and when I looked at all the wonderful stories I could have got if I’d been

01:23:00:00

out to get them you know, if you’d only been here last week sort of thing you’d do very well. But...
Yes I must admit I have the same frustrations with my own family history and aunts and uncles not interviewed and grandparents etcetera. Just moving back to your father, could you describe your father’s personality for us?

01:23:30:00

Well yes, he was a, I know I was dead scared of him one way and another, I was the eldest boy in the family and that had some good points and some bad points. But he expected

01:24:00:00

me to be able to do everything that he was, I was his number one right-hand man. And I remember at the age of about six, we were living in a place with a house and there was a separate block beside it. And he was dealing in horses of some sort then and I remember this day

01:24:30:00

with these big draft horses, they started to gallop down from the top. And I’m about six years old and I’m down to the bottom and he yells out, “Block ‘em, block ‘em.” And I get out like this and wave my hands and they stopped you know, that was the point. But he expected me to do things and

01:25:00:00

some of his multitudinous number of jobs he did, he’d break in horses. And we had a big gig [light, two-wheeled, one-horsed carriage] with a long sharp and he’d go out and with his rogue horse and away we’d go. And he’d get out to chase the horse or something and I’d have to set up in the gig and hold the

01:25:30:00

reins. This is, I remember about aged six or seven or something like that, and so I got a lot of training there one way and another. And then he had yes, lots of affinity with

01:26:00:00

people in Burragorang Valley, which of course is flooded now [Warragamba Reservoir]. And he’d got some old cars and he was running a car service between Sydney and Burragorang and knew people down there. And I used to get in on this and there’s people there would invite me

01:26:30:00

to come on my school holidays and I used to help them, these are farmers in the place. At quite a young age I broke a couple of horses and I remember one and from this school holidays

01:27:00:00

I went out droving out from Burragorang and up towards Kanangra Walls which is out towards Jenolan Caves there, that was absolutely virgin bush out that way. That was a very interesting time, I had my own horse and went with them and had a few adventures there. But...
I don't know that you’ve mentioned what your father’s profession was? It seemed like you had these rural affiliations

01:27:30:00

and yet...?
He wasn’t a professional, he was a battler, I suppose...
He was a battler but what was his actual profession?
Well he didn’t have a profession, see no one had professions in those days.
So how did he earn a living?
Mmm?
How did he keep body and soul together for himself and the family?
Well that’s a good question, a very good

01:28:00:00

question. He was, I don't know he just seemed to battle on.
But it seems to me that there was a very strong rural affiliation here. When you say he was a battler and he battled on, even though it might have been a bit spasmodic and a bit piecemeal,

01:28:30:00

how did he actually earn an income?
Well at one stage, and this was just after his marriage I think, he’d been off-siding a photographer, and he became pretty good at this photography racket with it.

01:29:00:00

And he set up his own business and he used to go round in a horse and sulky [light, two-wheeled, one-horse vehicle for one person], no cars in those days, or very few, taking photos and such. And one day he, all his cameras and his glass slides, because no roll of film in those days;

01:29:30:00

anyway the horse bolted and the sulky tipped over and smashed up everything see, so that was one thing that was (UNCLEAR). And then I think might have been then he went off to the bush and learned all about horses and so on. And then he did commercial travelling jobs. And I remember, he once won

01:30:00:00

a job with a car, and it was an engine under the seat and a chain drive to the back wheels. It was called a Mitsal [?], something like that, it was an old thing and with a dickey seat [back seat] you could sit up in the back of it. And one of these that, you know, you’ve seen ‘em in these

01:30:30:00

ancient car drives and so on. And that was from that he drifted into this car hire business, and he drifted out of that when the horrible New South Wales Government passed legislation which put him out of business see. And then he did a bit of farming and then

01:31:00:00

the worst of the Depression and he took the family onto a little farm down in Burragorang Valley. And I had a job in Sydney at that stage and I didn’t go and live with them in Burraga, I used to go there occasionally for holidays.
But in your formative years, as a child and early in your teens, whereabouts did you live?

01:31:30:00

Well this goes back to the point that after the First War he was repatriated and they put him on a poultry farm at Milperra, which is out of Bankstown.

01:32:00:00

And the two things in his life that he hated, one was cows and the other was chooks [chickens]. And I think I must have inherited something because my first childish memories must have been just before I was six years old. I’ve got no recollection whatsoever but I can

01:32:30:00

remember on this poultry farm getting chickens and wringing their necks. And, you know, in wintertime you’d have little containers for water for the chooks and they’d come along, and it’d get so cold that you’d get ice all over the top

01:33:00:00

of that and you’d go and have to break that so they could go and I had no love for chickens. And...
I can well imagine. Now can you tell us a bit about your mother’s personality?
Yes, she was born in the Mudgee area.

01:33:30:00

Her father was Swedish, he’d come on a ship and gone to the goldfields or something like that and married, and she was a local, born in Australia. Anyway they had a fair-sized family but my mother was oh about the second

01:34:00:00

youngest of the family. And she always suffered from deafness and I remember as kids we’d have to pipe up over voices so that she could hear. It wasn’t until later in life that she got some sort of a hearing aid and came on. But she was a lovely person

01:34:30:00

and she really kept the thing going and I think they had a marvellous relationship with the pair of them which we’ve really learned more about in later time.
Could you

01:35:00:00

tell us a bit about your schooling?
Well I started school I think the day after my seventh birthday and that was at Bankstown Public School and I didn’t have a very good attendance record there but I was at advanced age

01:35:30:00

and all the rest of it. And the first examination that came along I topped the examination without any trouble, I got fifty-six points out of sixty I think so you know, it was. Anyway we went from there, we went to Concord, lived in a place there

01:36:00:00

and I went to Concord Public School into third class and went through to sixth class. And for some reason I had one of my mother’s nephews was quite a famous violinist, Ernest Long.

01:36:30:00

And Dad got a violin and got me sent with him to learn the violin. And not long afterwards he went away overseas and I was sent to another character, the violin, and he made

01:37:00:00

his lesson times during school hours. And I remember I was in the sixth class at Bankstown, ah, at Concord Public School and I told the Headmaster that I wanted to go off to this woman and he said, “No” so I waited until he was out of the room

01:37:30:00

and I went. And I had all the sympathy of my parents and Dad took me away from Concord School and sent me to Burwood and this is in my sixth year, that’s three months at Concord, three months at Burwood. Then we got the bright idea to go up to the Blue Mountains for some holidays. And then we went up there and we stayed there for a while so I went for three months to Glenbrook

01:38:00:00

Public School. Then we lived at, that’s right we had this big house at Warrimoo and they started a public school at Blaxland. And I went to, it was closer and the young brother and I used to ride bikes down, up and down the highway, which was just rough metal at that stage. And what happened, well

01:38:30:00

that’s right, three months at Concord, three months at Burwood, three months at Glenbrook and three months at Blaxland. But anyway for what it was worth, I was Dux of the Blaxland School was about three or four others, it was a one teacher school. Strangely enough I met one of

01:39:00:00

the chaps fairly recently from out at...
Well that’s quite a feat considering the dislocation involved in all these schools; I mean that’s really getting over the odds.
Well I didn’t learn English, that’s passing and (UNCLEAR) and all the rest of it. I must have been

01:39:30:00

away or when one of these breaks that I didn’t have any lessons on that. And I remember at Glenbrook, I was sort of stood up and asked this and that and I didn’t know what a preposition was, I had not the slightest idea what a conjunction was or anything like that, I was completely clueless on the whole thing. And it wasn’t until I did Latin finally

01:40:00:00

at Parramatta High that the whole business of the English language sort of hit me. That was...
Frank, I’ll just, we’ll just have to change tapes.
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 02

02:00:33:00

Now Frank, at some stage you went to Parramatta High, now where did that fit into the picture?
Well, yes at the end, this sixth year class, I had the four three months lots, at

02:01:00:00

the end of it I did my qualified certificate and I got an exhibition, I got a bursary [scholarship], that’s right and I went to Parramatta High and I did six years altogether there because the fifth year was completely messed up. I had bad tooth

02:01:30:00

trouble and every time I had tooth trouble, someone extracted teeth from me and that just about killed me. And I had a leaving certificate target; I took honours in four subjects and passed in six, so that’s ten papers I had I think.

02:02:00:00

And with this tooth trouble I missed a couple, anyway I got a very swishy sort of a pass at the end. I got one honours and one A, one B and one lower hand or something like that. Family said, “You do another”, I was young for my sort of year.
So you qualified sufficiently to get into university?
Oh that’s

02:02:30:00

right. Yes, in the final year at Parramatta, I was Dux of the school, the best leaving certificate pass, university exhibition and I went off into science at Sydney University. And this was at a very low ebb in the

02:03:00:00

Stanton affairs before I made the decision that it was getting difficult, more difficult to carry on there. And I thought I, this can’t go on for four years, this can’t go there and I’ve got to do something and get a job so I tossed it.
Are we talking about a low financial ebb?
Yeah. See the Stantons had great ideas and all the rest of it,

02:03:30:00

they never had any money, that was the point.
Had the Depression affected your family quite a lot?
Well it did actually because, with my leaving certificate pass and my time at university, it took me I think it was

02:04:00:00

two years to get any sort of a job. And there was no sort of out-of-work pay [welfare system] or anything like that at that stage, so it was a very stultifying period.
Sounds like a big struggle actually?
And of course, I had the advantage of I had at least made it to university, but the rest of my family they didn’t

02:04:30:00

have a chance and they retired to this little farm down in Burragorang and grew up there, most of them. And then the ...
So how was it that you were able to get this job with the stocks and shares company?
Oh I applied for it; I’d applied for umpteen [many] jobs. See

02:05:00:00

with all of this, we had a typewriter Dad had got from somewhere, cause he was writing a novel in the meantime and I was doing the typing for it and so on and so forth, I’ve got it over there somewhere. And I had about oh I think two dozen where I was in the last six applicants for positions. There’d be two thousand applicants

02:05:30:00

for a position that sort of suited me and I finally got down to the point where this one clicked, and I got this job with the stock and share broker. And I’d studied up on accountancy from an old book that we had there and I was able to do all the accounting stuff for

02:06:00:00

this stock and share broker; just fortuitous actually.
And to what extent were you involved in actual stock and share work? You mentioned before have to go out and have shoes repaired and odd things like that but how much actual stock and share work were you doing?
Well, it was clerical work in recording, see there’s business in those days that the boss

02:06:30:00

had a nice office. And he’d go to the stock exchange and he was the operator on the stock exchange and he’d have his little note book and he’d write down such and such, he’s bought such and such from this broker and so on and so forth. And he had a number of clients and he’d bought a thousand BHP [Broken Hill Proprietary Limited, a large mining company] shares for Mr Smith and

02:07:00:00

those that come from the broker, and that’d come back into the office and we’d record it. And in the meanwhile the actual transfer between brokers of share certificates had to be done before one o'clock each day. And of course

02:07:30:00

I forget how many brokers there were; there must have been about oh thirty or forty in Sydney then. And they’d be rushing madly around with a great, I remember running up and down Pitt Street with thirty thousand bonds under my one arm and hoping my (UNCLEAR) somewhere or other, you know, and do it. Well then having done that then you’d get all the

02:08:00:00

stuff that’d come in and write cheques for those that you had to pay. And then it was two o'clock or something I think you’d go down to the Stock Exchange and you’d put an alphabetical line of people all the way round. And you’d start off with your cheques and hand them round and finally you’d finish up with a...

02:08:30:00

And you’d race back and prepare all those shares for the bank and go over to the, what was then the Union Bank on the corner of Pitt and O’Connell Street, no, Pitt and Hunter Street, and we always had to go in the back door because it was after three o'clock when the banks closed, and

02:09:00:00

put in enough money to keep the overdraft down see and that was the way we went. And I kept ledgers, clients and the other stock brokers and things like that. It was a busy time and with these

02:09:30:00

rush periods when the broker himself was worrying about the extent of his overdraft, they were all working on overdrafts at that time. And it’s changed round completely now of course, they’ve got well, during my time they brought in the tele-printers, they had a tele-printer in the office and this thing ’d go clicking away all day.

02:10:00:00

Now it sounds to me as if this was a job that had a future and yet you were saying before in the summary that it seemed a bit of a dead end for you? Why was that?
Well, there were several in the office there. There was a William Lawrence Langdon, he was a Grammar boy, and

02:10:30:00

reputedly he’d paid into the stockbrokers so much to get the job there. That was one, another one came from the Catholic school somewhere or other and he was in a similar situation. And so you paid your way in and you got a reputation

02:11:00:00

and then you raised the money or you had the money or the family or something or other to buy yourself into a business and be one of the tops. And the operator that went down to the Stock Exchange every day and did the actual buying and selling and that was like mad auctions all the time that was something, and that’s where you got. And

02:11:30:00

of course my bloke after I left him, he eventually went ‘bung’ [bankrupt] during the wartime when Italy came into the war and stopped the air mail service going through the Middle East and he’d sold shares short or something like that. And anyway he had to use all his

02:12:00:00

funds to get out of trouble and he got a lowly job in the stockbroker’s office you know somewhere.
But why was this kind of job for you a bit of a dead end from what you were saying before, why did it not present you with a bright future?
Well I suppose I was doing then was principally what you might call an accountant’s job, but

02:12:30:00

I should’ve been qualifying as an accountant which was too expensive for me in the such and such, you know, it was dog eat dog. And when I see some of the kids these days what they can do and, see I hadn’t,

02:13:00:00

I’d seldom been outside Sydney and I was running an athletics career at the same time as all this. And once you know, an athletic team went up to the central coast somewhere or other for a weekend, well you had to pay your own way and you had to provide all your own gear. And all I

02:13:30:00

got really out of athletics was I was a junior Long Jump Champion in New South Wales one year see, lost the title the next year but.
It must have very frustrating for you, I mean you’re describing all this energy and ambition that was obviously bottled up inside you and yet lack of money was holding you back?
That’s right, that’s right. And ...
When did the tide turn for you in terms of being able to

02:14:00:00

meet your ambitions with a bit of money?
When I volunteered for the Second World War I think, that was not the first time but I’d had a job in Canberra with the, a temporary job which paid

02:14:30:00

you know, above chicken feed.
What was that temporary job?
Well this was in the Stores Branch and all the requests for things to be bought, to be used in Canberra

02:15:00:00

from their various departments was channelled through that Stores Branch. And we had contracts with, principally in Sydney, the sort of firms that would provide the sort of things that you needed. And they had the most obsolete form of recording all this.

02:15:30:00

For instance, when I started on, I had a great sheet of aluminium or something like that, about that size, which you put under a great form that had to be done in six copies or something or other. And you had six copies and this to make it a hard

02:16:00:00

surface for it underneath and you (UNCLEAR), do this and that was stupid, the whole thing.
Sounds very tedious actually.
What?
Sounds very tedious.
Well it sounds very tedious and so stupid and I was only a young man and I spent half my life, well like I did later in the Treasury, I found all sorts of stupid

02:16:30:00

statistics they were producing. That was the time when the exchange rate between the Sterling [English pound] and the Australian was changing. Used to be on par you know, you’d get a pound Australian was worth a pound English then of course that went on the go. And they kept on recording this and then, oh that’s right then

02:17:00:00

dollars came into it somewhere or other. But...
Well that was much later of course.
Oh that was much later.
Now I believe it was before you enlisted and before the war that you met the woman who was to become your wife?
Yeah.
How did that happen?
Well we stayed at the same boarding house. Now I had this job and I’d had it for a

02:17:30:00

while but then the family went off to Burragorang and that left me, I had to get myself somewhere to live. And if you were working in Sydney, you’d go down to Kirribilli and there were boarding houses all the way around the place. And you’d pay

02:18:00:00

oh well I started off on thirty shillings a week, for another two shillings you got an all, I forget what they called it, anyway a ticket on the ferry which you could use lunchtime, as many times a day that you wanted.

02:18:30:00

And you’d race down to the quay, get the ferry, have lunch, back to the ferry, back home in time to start, half past one I think or thereabouts. And then you had to have you know, enough in your pocket to have a glass of beer after work. And

02:19:00:00

then you had a community of people who lived in these boarding houses and you got to know them and after all, you all had tickets on the ferry so you could have a night out without too much expense if you get me, so that went on and on and so.
So how was it that you first met your wife, I mean, she was a fellow resident in the boarding

02:19:30:00

house?
Yes.
And do you remember how you first met?
Oh, no, I don’t, there was a group of people and you did things together and I suppose ultimately you paired off, that was the point.

02:20:00:00

So how long before you began to feel fairly close to her?
God knows. I don't know, that’s the sort of a thing that you don’t analyse and look back on.
What was it about her that attracted you to her?

02:20:30:00

She probably listened to me, no, I wouldn’t know.
Do you remember any aspects of your courtship, are there any particular moments that stand out from your going out with her before you were married?
No, but I can tell you about some interesting moments with others.

02:21:00:00

I was seeing only fairly recently an obituary in the Sydney Morning Herald [newspaper], there’s a woman I worked with on the Stock Exchange and I was very keen there but...
You were very keen about this woman were you?
Oh yes, very keen about her and I,

02:21:30:00

anyway...
What was her name?
Her name was Joyce McGregor. But we sort of drifted when I left there and I didn’t see much of her after that and she went away, but this ad [advertisement] you know, practically a half-page in the

02:22:00:00

Herald. But apparently she eventually married someone and went to varied places and finished up she was given the keys of Newcastle and keys of the city and so on and apparently made quite a name for herself in there; then had moved back to Sydney and unfortunately I didn’t know this, and she was there and next thing she’s dead so.

02:22:30:00

Just....
I certainly grieved for her.
You did grieve when you’d learned that she’d died did you?
Yes I did, because she was a, but, there were different kinds of things...
Sounds like she made quite an impact on your early life?
Yeah, and we were good mates, we were, yeah.
What was it

02:23:00:00

about the woman that, sorry, what was your wife’s name?
Jean.
Jean. What was it about Jean that you thought was special enough for you to eventually marry her?
Well I suppose I could analyse that back, but I don't know, I think that she was

02:23:30:00

there, it was that.
Could you describe her personality for us?
Well it was purely personality and I look at her parentage, her father was a Wallace, of a family that came,

02:24:00:00

his father was born in Australia but only just you know, they came from Scotland and he was like the baby in arms, born in Australia, one, two. And they had a sort of a Scots background and

02:24:30:00

general approach to life. And then her mother was a Foreman and they were from East Anglia.
But what was it about Jean that appealed to you? You said, you said...
Well I’m just saying, she was a mix of, she was a Scots lassie one day and a

02:25:00:00

penny-pinching, ex-Jew, Foreman from East Anglia side of Britain the next and they conflicted. And oh no she wasn’t easy to get on with, but.
This is Jean herself?
Yeah.
So when were you married?

02:25:30:00

In December 1939.
Just a couple of months after the outbreak of war?
Yeah well, I was in the army, I had joined the army and we sort of made it, and I was in Canberra and she was in Canberra and that was a point and we said, “We’ll get married” and we did.

02:26:00:00

And that was it.
So you had met her in Kirribilli or in Canberra?
Yeah, in Kirribilli.
In Kirribilli; so she had also moved to Canberra as well had she?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And this is of course an early wartime wedding; can you describe the wedding for us?
Well yes, my brother Charles was my best man, we were both in uniform.

02:26:30:00

Her uncle conducted the service at the Methodist Church in Burwood beside the railway line there. We had a reception at some place in Strathfield.

02:27:00:00

My relatives generally were strict teetotallers and they were drinking the punch that was non-alcoholic except that someone had tipped a bottle of gin in it, in

02:27:30:00

the punch and they got a bit tiddly [drunk]. And...
Sounds like a riot actually.
And Jean had a little Morris Seven sedan, a little thing built of wood and a few other things that, you know, about this long, and we went all round, had a honeymoon in that and that’s another tale,

02:28:00:00

absolutely, and...
I’m just trying to understand something here, you spoke before of this woman whose obituary you read recently and you grieved for her.
Yeah.
And yet you seem to find it a little bit difficult to talk about Jean, why was this?
Oh no, well I suppose...
Actually...
Actually I knew more about,

02:28:30:00

after all I was married to her for fifty-odd years you know, that’s sort of thing we are. And you know all about the bad points, all the good points and you don’t sort of...
You said she could be difficult, but what were the good points about Jean?
Oh well there must have been some, there must have been, she was alright.
You mentioned

02:29:00:00

the ‘Scottish lassie’ aspect, what, I mean that sounds like a bit of fun for a start, I mean was there any aspect of the Scots side in her that...?
No I think there’s, I don't know I get mixed up. The children,

02:29:30:00

some have attributes from her and some from me and I can see sometimes they tended to clash. For instance this is after, well after the war, in Canberra, I had a second car and young John, my eldest boy,

02:30:00:00

he was driving. And oh he crashed it; he ran off the road and did a bit of damage to it. Now I’d spent time as transport officer of my battalion and with fifty-odd vehicles under my eye. And our thing was if anyone had a prang you took ‘em off

02:30:30:00

driving for a week maybe, something. So I applied the same thing to young John, and next thing there’s hell to pay in the family. He’d gone to Mum and said, “I can’t drive the car because Dad said I can’t drive the car.” And ‘muggins’ [I] backed down and, you know, I did a lot of backing down. And after all marriage is a funny thing you know, you,

02:31:00:00

you can’t get away from the fact it’s there and even, there’s give and take, all the way through, the lot of it.
I think a friend of mine summed it up by saying that marriage is a constant succession of falling in and out of love.
Well yes, yes. And

02:31:30:00

see we did so many things together, we got housing. We finished up we had a rented house in Canberra that we bought one of the houses that we were in, then I bought a brand new one, bought it

02:32:00:00

from the builder in Deakin which was a good show. Eventually sold that, we went to Sydney then rented one for a while, then we bought a house in Wollstonecraft. Then the developers came along and we sold that at a good thing and I bought one in Clara

02:32:30:00

for oh, about sixty thousand or something like that which was about the money I got from the one in Wollstonecraft. Then ultimately sold the one in Deakin, well the children had all gone and so on, we got three hundred thousand for it, the one that was sixty.
Now Frank, I think we’re

02:33:00:00

moving slightly off the point here cause I’m trying to keep us within the chronology of that early pre-war period. Could you tell me where you were when you first heard that World War II had broken out?
Well yes. I was living in Canberra; I was staying at a place called Glebe House which was in the suburb

02:33:30:00

of Reid, and I was sharing a room with a chap called Harold Peterson who worked in a bank. And we were listening to the radio and we heard Menzies [Robert Menzies, Prime Minister of Australia] outlining the business and saying, “And

02:34:00:00

consequently we were at war with Germany”. I had the words actually somewhere but I forget them now. But was clear and that was that, we knew it was coming along, but this was the first that we knew of it.
How had you known that it was coming along?
By reading the paper

02:34:30:00

and listening to, we did have radio in those days, we didn’t...
Yes I knew that. But I mean, if we’re looking at the major milestones particularly in Europe, what were the sorts of things that had impressed you sufficiently to be aware that war was inevitable? What were some of those milestones?

02:35:00:00

Well I think, the British declaration of war was in the September I think and nothing much happened.

02:35:30:00

You know, they sort of sparred up to each other and so on and but it was inevitable that the clash was going to come, and it came. I don't know whether any, you know whether there were,

02:36:00:00

there hadn’t been enough warfare to have the horror stories or anything like that in, and Dunkirk [Battle of, May 25th -3rd June 1940] hadn’t happened I don't think at that stage, it might have.
So when was it that you actually enlisted?
Mmm?
Why did you yourself decide to enlist?
Well, if you read that little thing I’ve got there,

02:36:30:00

I’ve got in detail. I said was...
But if I could have you talk about it for the sake of this recording, because although we’ll get a copy of that but if you can tell us for the sake of this recording why you decided to enlist?
Well I’ll say it. And there was a family business; my father had been to the First War and my uncle,

02:37:00:00

his brother, was also in the First War and I’d done a couple of years in the Sydney University Regiment, I was partially, I was well trained as a matter of fact, at that stage. And Jean’s father had

02:37:30:00

had half his arm shot away in Passchendaele or something in the First War and he had a couple of brothers in the war. It was more or less a family all the way through; and I suppose if I hadn’t been prepared to go along, and I was the right age, I was everything right, and

02:38:00:00

that was it.
How much was the prospect of adventure and travel an incentive for you?
Oh, not much but it was a fairly humdrum existence anyway and…
You mean what you’d been doing was humdrum?
Yeah, yeah.
So I imagine that the prospect of going to war at least

02:38:30:00

quickened the pulses a little bit?
Oh yes and see in a group that volunteered in Canberra, I think there were only two of us that lived in Canberra, they came from all the outlying ones. I’m the longest and there are about twenty-six of us so far and I’ve watched ‘em die off all the way, all the way

02:39:00:00

through. There’s the only two I know are left in that crowd.
So can you recall for us the process of your enlistment? Actually we might pick that up on the next tape, because we’ve just come to the end of this one, so...
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 03

03:00:32:00

Okay Frank, so what can you recall of your actual enlistment?
Enlistment. Right. Well it goes back to an announcement that there was going to be a group of twenty thousand called up into your calls, put your name down.

03:01:00:00

And then we got a notice which said, “Report at the Canberra Drill Hall at such and such a time.” And we turned up there, I’d say there were probably twenty or thirty blokes turned up to enlist.

03:01:30:00

We had to sign something and I remember particularly that I noticed I read along the end line that it was 2/3rd Battalion, 16th Australian Infantry Brigade, 6th Australian Division, wrote across the top see and that’s what I joined with. And right up to the finish I could say I’m

03:02:00:00

2/3rd Battalion so that made it a very easy thing. And there wasn’t much talking, you were given a number, mine was NX4613. And a particular mate that I had there afterwards

03:02:30:00

was called Dennis Williams, he’d been a music teacher at Canberra High School. He was 4608 and he had an argument with some other fellow there who also had that number and they had arguments about it. But where we see, we’re only in (UNCLEAR)

03:03:00:00

numerical sequence from, I think it was NX something 9 7. Anyway got to a certain point where the drunks had gone off to the pub and had a couple of, and they came back and they were absolutely out of sequence in the numbers, but that didn’t matter. Well then

03:03:30:00

we had to, I think it probably was the same day that we had to go on the train from Canberra Station down to Liverpool. The other memory I’ve got of that, at the time I was a mandolin player,

03:04:00:00

I had a mandolin and I took my mandolin along and we had some singing on the station. And this man was a beautiful tenor voice. And I was singing in the Canberra Male Voice Choir at that stage and we knew the same songs and we had a good time.
Where had you gotten hold of a mandolin?
What?
Where had you gotten hold of a

03:04:30:00

mandolin?
From my grandmother. She had it and I’ve still got it, it was sitting up over there.
Oh, you right? Do you want to have a stretch?
No, it’s alright. This morning I couldn’t get out of bed without, they were both cramped up, I got red hot.
Well let us know if you want to have a stop and a stretch,

03:05:00:00

we can stop at any time.
I’ll be right. So, where were we, we were...
You were talking about playing the mandolin at the station.
Oh yes. Anyway we got in a big hut in the old Liverpool camp and mixed up with a group that’d come down from the northern

03:05:30:00

tablelands and there was one chap there which we called ‘the Ploughman’ straight off. We teaching him to march and this character swung both his arms together [square gaiting], it was too, and he couldn’t alternate between the two and he was a funny fellow. So, that was alright and

03:06:00:00

that’s where we did recruit training. Well I’d done all this, I could slope my arms and do anything and I could pull a Lewis gun [light machine gun, First World War vintage] to bits and put it round so I didn’t worry too much about that.
So where was the training camp?
Well this was in the old Liverpool camp, just across the original bridge there at Liverpool.

03:06:30:00

And it was a First World War camp and a militia one thereafter, but they were building the new camp for the AIF at oh, down the line a bit, some of these place names are just...

03:07:00:00

Tell me, you mentioned that you, part of the training was putting together the Lewis gun and things like that, what else was involved with your training?
Oh marching and bit of, this is the preliminary training and I suppose there was only a couple of weeks of that. It was really knocking the rough edges off people

03:07:30:00

and I didn’t have any rough edges to knock off me. But my mate Williams did, you know, we were probably the only two intellectuals, you might say, in the group that ever seen a university or been anywhere near it. And that you had to play down pretty well,

03:08:00:00

because some of my later troops that were there in, at that time, one was a bulldozer driver and two of ‘em were professional bagmen [commercial travellers, but probably here vagrants] and knew just how to drive, get on the train and underneath a train and travel from place to place and not

03:08:30:00

pay any fares and so on and so forth. And then there were drovers who were miscellaneous collection of people from all over the place. And yes, I had a complete list of ‘em once, but I’ve still got it somewhere but I’ve also been picking up here and I can’t find it anywhere.
Well look, what happened after your

03:09:00:00

recruitment training, where did you go next?
Well we marched down to the new camp at, oh it must come back to me, ah, oh dear...
Was it nearby Liverpool?
Mmm?
Near Liverpool?
Oh yes, yes,

03:09:30:00

it was...
Hols, was it Holsworthy?
No.
No, wasn’t Holsworthy.
No. It was on the main road to Campbelltown anyway, oh dear... [actually Ingleburn]
Well that’s okay, we’ve got a sense of the area so it’ll probably come to you in about thirty seconds, yeah.
Yes, it was, and this was in new huts and so on. And

03:10:00:00

brigade areas and I think brigade headquarters were there up on the road, Ingleburn that’s right. And that was, we went there October, November, we couldn’t have had too much training there because

03:10:30:00

we marched through Sydney early in January and we had leave over the Christmas period so there wasn’t too much time spent in Ingleburn Camp, maybe a month. But and there

03:11:00:00

we formed into battalions under our new battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel England, and a gaggle of officers including quite a few still wearing kilts from the New South Wales 30th Battalion.

03:11:30:00

And I think I had a picture there of our first march through Sydney where I was picked as the left marker of one group, we marched down the street and everyone clapped and everything and it was happy.
What was that like?
Oh it was alright,

03:12:00:00

I’ve got the photo of myself there and I’m looking very serious, and trouble is I got a bloke about six foot six beside me and made me quite a, my six feet didn’t sorta work out very much. Anyway...
So after you got back from your leave, how long after that was, did you hear that you were going to go abroad?

03:12:30:00

Well I think my leave probably finished; it was only a few days. We weren’t sort of, I think leave over Christmas was more or less pre-embarkation leave and there might have been six or seven days in between but there wouldn’t be much, because we actually embarked on the ninth of January and sailed on the

03:13:00:00

tenth and so that was that.
What was it like, what do you recall of your farewell from Australia?
Well I think all my farewells had been said, I don't think there was anyone lined up. But

03:13:30:00

we embarked on the ship was round the corner Darling Harbour where there. And we anchored overnight in the harbour and there were people in boats around the place and sorta waving, but it was very hard to pick people in the long line of people with hats on or something or other,

03:14:00:00

to what it was. But I think all our necessary farewells had been said beforehand, that was the general show.
What was it like saying goodbye to Jean?
Oh, “So long”. We weren’t very emotional, no.

03:14:30:00

And it takes quite a lot for me to make me break down and cry and I think I wasn’t worried about it at all. And I’m a bit of an optimist also, and

03:15:00:00

I’ve got a lot of time for my own ability to keep out of trouble. So you know, I’m pushing eighty-nine, I’m just down the track and that means I’m about

03:15:30:00

thirteen years ahead of the eldest survivor of the Stantons and they all have passed off by seventy-six, here I’m eighty-eight, eighty-nine, so.
Well you’re doing pretty good Frank.
What?
You’re doing pretty good. Look getting back to your farewell from Australia, what

03:16:00:00

what ship did you embark on?
Oh well, we were all fitted into the Orcades and the Orcades was a fairly new P&O [Pacific and Orient shipping line] I think, or something. Anyway there was no great changes had been made and I know, I was a

03:16:30:00

corporal, I’d been promoted corporal in Ingleburn Camp, as had my friend Williams. And I shared a four berth cabin, at probably down about water level, I think we had a porthole that looked out almost in the water. And quite pleasant, it was, we didn’t have cups of tea in the morning

03:17:00:00

or so on but it was quite a good show. And we had all the battalion on board and also a group of nurses and so on and it was quite a happy ship.
How often would you play your mandarin, not your mandarin, sorry, I meant mandolin,

03:17:30:00

yes.
No I didn’t take it with me but I found another one somewhere, in a kit store overseas and tuned it up and played it for a while. But then I got some busted fingers and didn’t help very much.
So what route did the ship take?
Ah, can’t tell.

03:18:00:00

No, we picked up more ships at Melbourne and we went across the gulf of course and we had leave in Fremantle. And that was, I get that tangled up with the Kiwi [New Zealand] leave we had there on the way back, in another three year’s time or something like that but

03:18:30:00

we had quite a pleasant time. I went round with a group and we had a few New Zealanders there too, they were on another ship, and they tell me years after the event that I was very good at picking fights with the New Zealanders then standing back and letting the other fellas do the fighting.

03:19:00:00

But that was, I can’t recollect any of that.
Well can you recall what the general attitude between the Australians and New Zealanders was?
I don't think there was any at that stage, really. They had funny hats you know; they had the peaks in their caps or something like that.

03:19:30:00

There was not much, and strangely enough we didn’t seem to get to know them at all overseas, where they were I don't know, we were fighting in the Western Desert and anyway. I think by and large the Australian New Zealand

03:20:00:00

relationship was something you could write a book about, and no one would agree as to anything that was in it. So it’s a...
So I believe that you travelled to, sailed to Palestine, what happened once you arrived in Palestine?
Well just to pick up from Fremantle,

03:20:30:00

we had a day’s leave in Colombo and we went on the Red Sea and up to the Suez [Canal]. Anyway we disembarked in Egypt actually and we got into cattle trucks and went up into Palestine,

03:21:00:00

it wasn’t so very far. And we were headed for a camp at a place called Julis, I suppose that was a mile or so away from whatever station we got off at, I can’t recollect completely what it was. But we went into this tented camp, which had been put up

03:21:30:00

for us with a lot of help from the British troops that were there in Palestine already. It was an armed camp, the whole lot were Scottish and British and God knows what others. And this was quite a pleasant camp and we had these things called an EPIP [English Pattern, Indian Product] tent, which I suppose, was about

03:22:00:00

oh the size of these two rooms and together, quite a big thing and we could. I had a section of ten men and myself, there was eleven of us, we were fitted into this tent really well. And we had bed boards to sleep on and

03:22:30:00

nice soft mattresses made up hessian bags and filled with straw, that was right, but it wasn’t bad. And was close to where, and of course we got into the business of reveille quite early in the morning and early morning parades. And then

03:23:00:00

we had good showers, hot and cold water and lots of oranges which the little Arab kids ’d pinch from the Jewish, quite large orchards around the place. And great oranges that size that you could get, you didn’t know whether they’d been stolen or not or just picked up

03:23:30:00

somewhere, that was alright.
What were you doing in Palestine in terms of training?
Oh well that was digging trenches, digging a few more trenches, digging a few more trenches and there was route marching.

03:24:00:00

And it was all sort of arable land, there was no desert in Palestine where we were but there were a few hills and we’d march out into the hills and we’d mostly march back to camp at night, that was the point. We didn’t, it was quite exceptional for us to stay out

03:24:30:00

overnight in, and bivouac [camp], but we were there for oh months. We arrived there in February and May, June, July, I think in about September we went down to,

03:25:00:00

moved camp down to Egypt, a place called Helwan and we had a couple of months there. And then we moved out to a place near Alexandria called Amariya and left there on a train which went up alongside the

03:25:30:00

Mediterranean. Well, in time to have our first fight in early January outside Bardia which we took part in a pitch battle in, to capture Bardia which had been

03:26:00:00

really heavily fortified by the Italians.
Before we do get to Bardia, could you tell me how long it was between your arrival in Palestine and the battle of Bardia?
Less than twelve months, it was, we arrived in Palestine in February and we

03:26:30:00

fought the battle of Bardia from the third of January and we’d been, well Christmas Day we were outside Bardia and so on and so forth so I suppose it was about, oh about ten months training we had

03:27:00:00

in the region before we actually fought the battle of Bardia.
What was that like having such an extended length of time for training and not seeing battle for such a long time?
Well I suppose one thing you’re training and they keep you occupied every minute of the day you might say. And

03:27:30:00

also tried to keep you happy with other things and you know, but after all you know, you’ve joined another business, you’re in business as army people and you do what army people do.
How did they try to keep you happy with other things, what were those activities?
Well some bright boy got the

03:28:00:00

idea of importing Australian beer so that was available in the canteen, but officialdom said you can’t take these bottles away to your own tent so you got to have the top lifted off the bottle when you buy it

03:28:30:00

at the canteen. And of course having done that, you take the bottle of beer which hasn’t seen a cool room long before it left Australia and ‘shoosh’ you’ve got I suppose a third of the bottle of beer unless you directed the ‘shooshing’ into your mouth.

03:29:00:00

Anyway that was one thing. But we had films at night, some nights we had concert parties, they’d come around. There was a British concert party with beautiful girls and singers and so on that came along. And

03:29:30:00

plenty of two-up games [traditional gambling game using two pennies], not officially but not frowned on and course you could also go for a hike if you wanted to. Oh yes, it wasn’t bad, it was good holiday time actually.
And what about communication back home, at

03:30:00:00

this point?
Oh, well, you could write letters and you received letters and there was in the early stages a plane service from Britain to Australia, which was flying boats from

03:30:30:00

Singapore on. And Palestine, the flying boats used to land on the next lake up the Jordan River; I forget what it was called now. But when Italy joined the

03:31:00:00

war and I can’t remember the date, of course they’d cut off the flying boats, any flying routes through that Middle East area and there was no more airmail and no more mail and then the mail became very sporadic after that. It was dependent on what ships they could get it on and bring it through. And sometimes you’d get a bunch of letters of half a dozen or six or eight or something like that

03:31:30:00

and then couple of months with nothing and it wasn’t very good. But oh I think you regarded it as sort of thing that’d happen if you were away.
So

03:32:00:00

what else did you do in Palestine during this training, was there any specific specialised training that you did at this point?
Well we had new weapons that we had to get accustomed to; we had the Bren gun [Bren light machine gun], which replaced the Lewis gun as an automatic weapon.

03:32:30:00

And oh a few other bits and pieces but they were just incidental to it, it was mainly the tactical and sort of self-preservation training that we did. But there was a fair amount of leave as well and I suppose everyone at some stage

03:33:00:00

clocked up some leave in Jerusalem, which was to the historic parts and so on. There was also leave to Tel Aviv which is a more modern city and ...
What about, I believe that you also attended a military school with the

03:33:30:00

Scots Guards, was that while you were in Palestine?
Yes, not long after we got to Julis, a lot of NCOs [Non-commissioned Officers] were picked

03:34:00:00

for a school at Sarafan [Barracks] which had essentially Scots Guards instructors and you were done more or less in section lots and this was essentially in drill. We were taught the way to

03:34:30:00

turn and stamp your heel down rather than just drag your foot of course, if you get me and it was very funny to look at if you weren’t doing it. Because when we got back to camp everyone who’d been to that school was supposed to do it the right way to stamp your foot down and teach all the blokes, and the blokes didn’t

03:35:00:00

think much of it, but eventually they assimilated it, that was right.
Why were you selected for that course?
Oh well number one, you had to be a corporal or above. And there were

03:35:30:00

a certain number that you could take to do it, didn’t take all the corporals but took most of them, all the good looking ones.
And so you mentioned that once you went back to the camp and you were in, back in with the other blokes, how did the fact that you’d done this course affect your status

03:36:00:00

amongst the men?
Well in addition to learning a different way of marching and halting and so on and so forth you learned a bit more of the necessary

03:36:30:00

disciplinary matters. And I suppose people smartened up a bit, that was the point and that was the object of the exercise was to really show them or show us

03:37:00:00

how professional soldiers carried themselves in these conditions.
How was your physical health at this time?
Mmm?
How was your physical health during this period of training?
Oh it was good, and...
Cause I believe you caught malaria while you were in the Middle East?
Yes. Well, this was one of the ones we were away for,

03:37:30:00

away from Julis and we did a couple of day’s camp at a place called Latrun, L-A-T-R-U-N I think, which was sort of between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. And it was a malaria area and we were all warned that after sundown you had to wear slacks, gaiters, roll down your sleeves and do up your

03:38:00:00

collars and so on. I did the lot, I was a corporal, I had a section of ten men. I did the lot and I got malaria and the other rogues didn’t, they wore shorts and didn’t roll up their sleeves, they didn’t do this and that, and they did and they got nothing. So that was

03:38:30:00

where it was.
Sounds like you had a bit of bad luck?
What? Oh well it was bad luck, that was it. But that bad luck carried me through quite a lot from then on. The fact that I had got malaria affected my promotion show and as we went

03:39:00:00

along, except that the stage was reached where when the battalion didn’t have enough officers and we apparently couldn’t get spaces in the officer’s training course. And the course was run by the British Army and

03:39:30:00

in my unit we had about ten to a dozen sergeants and warrant officers hauled in said, “You apply for commission and we’ll get you through.” And among these warrant officers and sergeants there was one poor corporal, that was me, that was it,

03:40:00:00

I’d been picked. Well the procedure was that you saw your commanding officer and he gave you a pep talk on it, then you had to be interviewed by the brigade commander and then you had to be interviewed by the divisional commander.
Frank, we’ll pick this up on the next tape because we’ve just come to the end of this one.
Mmm?
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 04

04:00:33:00

Okay, you were in the middle of telling us the story of how you were the corporal in amongst these sergeants.
Well alright, I’d come down with malaria and arriving simultaneously was my time to see the brigadier so

04:01:00:00

this is where I’ll tell you, I had a section of ten men, they more or less took it in relays to look after me and bring me cups of tea from the NAAFI [Navy, Army, Air Force Institute] canteen crowd, you know what NAAFI is? Well it was the British canteen service and

04:01:30:00

they’d give you, anyway, they’d bring me cups of coffee and I’m running a high temperature and so on and finally I get up to go up hill to the brigadier’s tent. And I go in and he says, “Hello” and he looks at my name and,

04:02:00:00

“Didn’t I have your brother here yesterday?” And I said, “From the 2/1st Battalion?” So he’d also got a request to application for a commission and he’s about three or four years younger than me. And, “Mmm,” he said, “he’s much brighter than you isn’t he?” And I said, “Yes sir.”

04:02:30:00

And I couldn’t open my eyes at that stage; I was so much out to it. Anyway I completed the interview with him and I got through and I was carted off to hospital there forthwith. I think I did three weeks in the hospital with malaria and knocked it off. And we had some drugs at that stage, we had and

04:03:00:00

so on. And that was a tented hospital there, thinking at Gaza and so on.
Was the brigadier aware that you had malaria?
Mmm?
Was the brigadier aware during that interview that you had malaria?
I didn’t tell him, he would’ve known, some of them must have known. Anyway he’s a good bloke, ‘Tubby’ Allen [Brigadier later Major General A.S. (‘Tubby’) Allen], he’s

04:03:30:00

really tubby and he’s got a son in Sydney I’ve met him and he’s about this high. But well then, oh that’s right, and they brought out a new posting of officers for the 2/3rd Battalion. It was to the Eighth Platoon, Ninth, Tenth, so all the way through.

04:04:00:00

And right at the bottom of the list was Eighteen; I was there as Corporal Stanton, that was alright. But I transferred from A Company to Don Company at that stage so I’m a central platoon commander of Don Company so they couldn’t let me go

04:04:30:00

and sleep with ordinary corporals and privates and so forth. They got me a little bell tent all to myself, the company lines. That didn’t last for long but in the meantime orders would come through Egypt so we moved to Egypt and were on the verge of desert, which is

04:05:00:00

out of Cairo and in the same sort of area as the pyramids and so on. And we did route marching and digging and so on out there and stinking hot sun and someone had got the idea to see how long we could go without water. Well that’s been frowned on since

04:05:30:00

as you know, you drink as much as you can, never mind, we did it. But this day we’d been out in the morning and we came back for lunch and we lined up for our afternoon parade. And my company commander

04:06:00:00

starts off, he says, “Corporal Stanton fall out.” And I fell out, marched up to the front and salute. And he said, “Have you got any pips?” I said, “Yes sir.” He said, “Well go and put ‘em on, I’ll hold the parade.” So I off to my tent, which was about fifty yards away, look for them in the corner,

04:06:30:00

got out my beautiful tailor-made shirt and shorts which I was saving up and got ‘em on, got back on parade, lined up with the officers. Take post and salute and off we go. I go back to my platoon which is about six or eight privates, or a lot of ‘em were all and so forth.

04:07:00:00

And my senior man, Montefiori [?], he’d come out in front and he says, and he gave him my first, very smartly and retired to the back of the thing. And off we went, we went out for the afternoon’s

04:07:30:00

training which was trench digging and marching and so on. And those blokes just supported me absolutely completely, this is good, there was no chiacking [teasing], there was no, you know, congratulations and so on and so forth, Course they knew it was coming, so did I but. And I think

04:08:00:00

that was probably a… I know of being commissioned in the field which carries a cascade with a something oh.
That must have been a very proud moment for you?
It was, yeah, and of course at about the same time I had a cable of my daughter’s birth,

04:08:30:00

you know, in Canberra. And Margaret Elizabeth, we called her Elizabeth all the way, that’s right.
What was it like receiving the news that your daughter had been born?
Mmm?
What was it like receiving the news that your daughter had been born?
Oh well I knew it was coming you know, I got tangled up with this other

04:09:00:00

I see, oh the cable I sent announcing had, oh, one had been held up anyway, expecting some reference to Elizabeth and it was just about my commission.

04:09:30:00

Damn him. No it was a bit funny but you take these things in your stride, September and then of course we, I had to equip myself then and go into Cairo and buy things and I bought mats and things

04:10:00:00

and you know, you gotta lot of side to put on once you’re commissioned.
So what happened once you arrived at Bardia?
Well we moved up in stages

04:10:30:00

in the desert from, we’d gone to a new camp at Amariya which was out near Alexandria and then we moved by their to train to Mersa Matruh there somewhere else. Then we had to march or we went past a place called ‘Hellfire’ Pass [Halafaya Pass]

04:11:00:00

and we had to march a certain distance towards the front line and we were in the dark and various people dropping out for various reasons, people were starting to get the fidgets at that stage. And

04:11:30:00

I think my company second-in-command showed more fear than anything else on that trip and probably was got rid of I think. And this is moving up; anyway we were a fair way out of Bardia, a couple of miles from their front line,

04:12:00:00

no wire. And we did a period of patrolling and mostly a platoon commander, which I then was of course, picked with his platoon or half of it to move out as far as the Italian

04:12:30:00

wire and got a sample of the wire, call down the enemy’s fire and , and then come back. And I went out and I said, “I’m gonna hand this business to the enemy’s fire on you and the feeling where it falls”.

04:13:00:00

But and I didn’t have any wire cutters to get rid of the wire, so I reported, I did a couple of those patrols out and took back information. It was on one of these, it was bright moonlight most of the time and the hill,

04:13:30:00

just was a big hill. But was a big help that I was down as we got fairly close in and in front of me I see a wire or a cord stretching. I hold everything they were well behind me and I look down one end that way and there’s a spike in the ground here

04:14:00:00

to there hanging to it is a canister and these are booby traps and if you touch that wire, that cord, I’d have exploded both of em and I wouldn’t be here. So that was alright, I warned the platoon, I said, “You stay here, I’ll go forward myself.” So then I

04:14:30:00

stepped over the cord somehow or other and went back and I reported these booby traps. The report went through and of course a couple of nights later a more high-powered patrol went out with our adjutant and the Brigade Major and went straight through

04:15:00:00

the wires and at all, “I told you.”
Now what was it like going out on a night patrol?
Scary. You didn’t know, well you knew what you, if you’d been in defence, you’d say, “I’d have a machine gun trained

04:15:30:00

this way you know, there’s a wire there and you’d have it coming this way and that way”. And you knew they’d be well sighted. And you knew that if you got in that sight of their defensive post, you wouldn’t make a noise or you’d get a couple of machine gun bullets, you know, that was the point. And so

04:16:00:00

you didn’t make a noise. But they wanted all sorts of advice on, you know, how wide is the anti-tank ditch and how deep is it at that side and of course you had a tape measure with you to take all these things. But anyway we got through alright and I went out one night

04:16:30:00

as passenger with another, with one of the warrant officers leading the platoon and he went and got himself lost somewhere, he left the platoon and I waited for about an hour and I gathered round, I said, “Look I don't know where he’s gone to but we gotta be home for breakfast, we better”. So we went, I took them back in and he turned up some other way, he got himself

04:17:00:00

completely lost. But fortunately I didn’t put him in either.
Why’s that?
Mmm?
Why’s that?
Well I didn’t want to, I thought it probably wasn’t his fault at any rate, he was a bit unlucky.

04:17:30:00

You don’t rock the boat necessarily, I had a word with him myself and he was most contrite about it.
What did you say to him?
Oh I can’t put it in the exact words.
What was the gist of what you said to him?
No, I’d pointed out what I’d had to do, I said I had to take you

04:18:00:00

back. You know, he said, “Thanks very much.” That was how it went. But
You mentioned that on the way to Bardia that, I’m not sure if it was part of these battles, that some of the men were having to drop out because of fear. How would the men display this fear?

04:18:30:00

Well, I suppose it’s a, well mainly through the bladder I think, you know, that was how they’re affected, they drop out and

04:19:00:00

not having any worries in that way, I didn’t, I wasn’t scared anyway I was on edge. We found later that we weren’t within miles of any trouble, but the situation there was that well no-one told you it’s safe,

04:19:30:00

you know, you knock it over.
I mean it must have been quite a challenge for you to be a leader of this platoon but also having your own fears about the activities that you were doing. How did you overcome them?

04:20:00:00

Well I more or less made a vow to myself that when I had any command that was a section or a platoon, section would be ten men, a platoon would be…men, that I wouldn’t unnecessarily get any of these chaps

04:20:30:00

killed or even hurt and that I would do my best, using my knoll [head] and my training to take all my objectives without losing any men. Now I kept that in front of me all the way through as an objective and consequently

04:21:00:00

I didn’t lose any men. In the attack on Tobruk, I had two men wounded but they had come up the previous night and came in, they hadn’t fronted up to me. And I was advancing in extended order, which means I had one man here, and the next one is over that

04:21:30:00

way and over this way, and we spread over a very wide area and these two chaps were somewhere along that line and to make a nice target for someone who shot ‘em, but didn’t hurt ‘em very much, they weren’t badly done. And I don’t still don’t, they just were on and off and gone and that was it. But none of my old crowd were hurt at all.

04:22:00:00

But and one of these approaches it was at the next place, my company commander, another Scotsman, we’re advancing along, and my platoon sergeant he

04:22:30:00

was out on my left flank about oh, close on a hundred yards away I think. And he yells out, “Hey Frank, and such and such, such and such.” I said, “Okay.” The next thing company commander come up, “Mr Stanton.” he said, “Is your platoon sergeant usually using your Christian name?”

04:23:00:00

And I just shut my eyes and looked at him, I didn’t answer it, such a futile question. I’d been privates with this bloke, together, we’d been mates, we’d been this and that and this was the best sort of camouflage that he could do, was not to yell out, indicate that I

04:23:30:00

was an officer you know. That’s the point, never did it again, only said once. But he was the bulldozer driver. That was that.
You mentioned back when you were talking about your role as a commissioned officer that you were suddenly putting on a front, saying that this new role that you had was an act. What did you

04:24:00:00

mean by that?
Putting on a front?
I mean did you feel comfortable in your skin as this, doing this new role, as an officer?
Yeah. Well, you were in a different league.

04:24:30:00

See I’d been a company commander where I got three or four officers under me and necessarily we’ve got to have the same sort of ideals and so on and we got to have

04:25:00:00

maturity to keep ‘em together. And you’ve gotta watch what they’re doing, and actually I don't know, it’s just part of the rules of the game, they’re not written down somewhere, but it is. You keep it and if they don’t, I’ve had this situation where I’ve had to report

04:25:30:00

officers who didn’t do their duty, who showed fright or did stupid things at the wrong time, and got rid of ‘em. And you could have no compunction at all with that sort of thing. I’ve had a lot of others that I should’ve done with but that’s down to it cause it wasn’t

04:26:00:00

you know, it was too fine a point or something like that, but you tried to train your officers as well as your men.
What did it, what do you see as being the main qualities to be a good leader?
Well

04:26:30:00

I don't think you can learn it, I’ve seen a lot of good ones and I’ve seen a lot of bad ones. But

04:27:00:00

I don't know it’s something like that, you’re either a good spin bowler or you’re not a good spin bowler. You think you are, you go through all the actions but same twist that Warney’s [Shane Warne, Australian spin bowler] got on it. Yeah.
Okay so it’s something that you can’t learn but what are those things that you can’t, what are those qualities that the leaders

04:27:30:00

that you know or have these qualities, what were they?
Well leadership is a wide embracing thing. There’s leadership in training for instance, there’s leadership in if you’re leading a march or something like that.

04:28:00:00

There is leadership where it is a tactical situation where someone in a group has got to do something special as, there’s only one man can do it, show this and that.

04:28:30:00

The leader really becomes the leader as well, he’s the one that can do it and he can go forward and using my dictum that you shouldn’t get anyone killed, that can mean yourself as well, especially. So but then it could be a

04:29:00:00

having done this hypothetical thing, you said, “Right come on, men, come with a group, not group too much”, you know, keeping their distances. But, no, it’s a product of training and some of the leadership, but there is something in you

04:29:30:00

that tells you what I’ve used in lots of areas. Even as a high-powered Treasury officer at one stage, I really had to line up a group of blokes and tell ‘em just what to do and you’ve gotta do it this way, and my way. It always helps

04:30:00:00

if you’ve got sufficient punch as well. I don’t mean this sort of punch but .
Well thank you, that’s a very interesting look at leadership.
Yeah.
I always find that an interesting question to ask, cause everyone has a different outlook on leadership and the qualities. Getting back to Bardia,

04:30:30:00

were there any other significant moments that happened while you were in Bardia?
Well let me be clear on Bardia. I was platoon commander in Don Company, the orders came out that such and such, and so but start line which was taped right across a thousand yards or something like that, wire,

04:31:00:00

that had to be laid down beforehand. Say, when we’re going to do a dawn attack and maybe about midnight, a group that were to put it and where to do such and such. We actually didn’t have any tape so we used what you call four by two flannel, which is you cut off bits

04:31:30:00

to clean your rifle with and so on, we had long strips of this right across. My company was given the job of going out, sitting on this start line and make sure the enemy don’t see it beforehand, the thing was. Okay, we did that, we went

04:32:00:00

out there. And then we had to wait there until all our advance had passed through and then go in and do a subsidiary job after it. So everything came down to us. Once we done this thing, these subsidiary jobs don’t matter very much because they had been half done already by someone else.

04:32:30:00

So Don Company 2/3rd Battalion didn’t have a very big job to do in Bardia, maybe on the second day we did have objectives which were alright. We were helped by infantry tanks, British tanks which were specially made for these

04:33:00:00

infantry attacks, and in theory, anything fired at them is after hitting their soft metal in front and stick there. The only trouble for the infantry was if they soft missed the tank, the bits of it behind, as you were coming along. But

04:33:30:00

oh yes there were not and I can’t tell you a lot. I can tell you a lot more about Tobruk where I was in the battalion.
Okay look well let’s go to Tobruk, if you could like just make the link to Tobruk, what, how did you come to be in Tobruk?
Right. Well Bardia was on the third of January and I think we went into Tobruk

04:34:00:00

on the twentieth, something like that and in between, we were in Bardia. And we had the same sort of overall orders on Tobruk as we did on Bardia, the same group, except that the 2/3rd Battalion was one of the leading battalions.
What exactly were your orders?

04:34:30:00

Well the battalion had orders to go through certain openings in the wire and it got down to the platoons, he’s got three platoons and he had two platoons up in reserve, coming on board. Now I was one of the platoons

04:35:00:00

and his orders to me would been, “Go through there and proceed through there to take Post Fifty-six, which is a hundred yards further on towards the coast”. We

04:35:30:00

had an opening which was gonna be barred, what they called a Bangalore, which was a length of iron pipe, maybe ten, twelve feet long, which was crammed with explosives, a detonator in the end. The engineers did this, pushed this right under the wire fence,

04:36:00:00

ignite the detonator and it’d go off and it sort of explode up in the air, it was all the wire so a lovely area that you could walk straight through. Now, I waited for the explosion of course and when I was there

04:36:30:00

mine was the engineer sergeant, had a pair of wire clippers and he clipped the wire about that long and he . And I said, “Thanks.” And as I said then I was in command, I had an objective, move to this post and learned from the map that we had post which had, showed the location on it, posts.

04:37:00:00

And...
Where had you gotten those maps from?
I don't know.
They’d obviously been from the enemy but...?
They’d been captured from the enemy, there’d been certain other further back and it’d gone and they had the plan printing

04:37:30:00

facilities, anyway I’ve got a good map of Bardia somewhere, I can dig it out for you. And but that was the point. You said what were my orders, move to the posts. So I found the posts and

04:38:00:00

I found it because it was very difficult. They’d done these reinforced concrete sort of wiring under the ground, flush with the general ground area. And then they got metal boards and put them over, just wide enough for something to get into, something. And then go down

04:38:30:00

underneath, rooms underneath and so on. But they got bits of board about this long and then scattered the local sand and all over the board so that you couldn’t see anything. And from the ground, what, without anyone sticking his, you had to be a bit lucky to see it. I was lucky and because I’d taken the right

04:39:00:00

bearing, I’d a fluid compass and I’d worked out onto this and I kicked away a few of these boards and said, “Here it is.” And I dropped a couple of grenades in and that sort of stirred up things a bit, except at that stage a company commander turned up. “John McDonald’s been hurt on

04:39:30:00

Post such and such, the one at the wire and you better take your platoon back.” And of course I said, “What about this?” “Don’t worry about that.” So I was left in an objective. And I’d arrived on the evening of the objective; I’d started to soften it up,

04:40:00:00

had a couple of grenades down there, which killed a few people by the sound of it. And I’m pulled off to go back in the dark without a bearing from a compass or anything like that, to help a platoon which had apparently been held up because he’d been shot in the abdomen or somewhere or other, not killed.
Frank we’ll have to pick that up on the next tape,

04:40:30:00

because we’re actually at the end, but we’ll...
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 05

05:00:33:00

Now at the end of the last tape we were dealing with the fact that although you just discovered this Italian fort, you’d been sent back to cover a situation where a man had had quite a severe abdominal wound.
Oh yes.
Yes. Now just picking the story up from there, what happened once you got back there, I mean

05:01:00:00

as you...?
Oh well, what happened was, it was a stupid thing anyway. I’m a hundred yards out there and by then it’s a black night and he’s taking, he’s followed on me, my compass from me and he’s heard that his other platoon is in trouble, because it mean that he was shot in the,

05:01:30:00

the abdomen, went in and out again, didn’t stay in. And he sends me back. Now in effect I was on the objective, I started to soften it up and I pulled off it. And all for nothing because by the time I got back to the other place, well, where I went, I hit the wire and I thought this is the wire around their post.

05:02:00:00

And I broke three pairs of wire snippers cutting the wire, got out into the anti-tank ditch, I was outside the fences altogether. Came back in and of course the thing is cleared up then, the other way.
So the Italians had basically repaired what damage you’d created by throwing the grenades in I presume?
No, no.
Others had moved in and had...
No,

05:02:30:00

followed it through on your action?
No one had moved in.
Nobody had moved in.
No-one had moved in.
What was the situation when you got back there?
Well I didn’t get back to the other platoon, ‘cause I had to cut myself out of the wire, I thought the wire in the thing. And apparently they’d collected their prisoners and gone, you know, and that was a thing you shouldn’t do is to pull someone off an objective that they’re already

05:03:00:00

onto. You know, don’t, oh, I’ve (UNCLEAR) in that thing as well but I...
Yes, it just defies analysis as to why they would do that, completely?
Panic. Remember the old bloke in Dad’s Army, “Don’t panic, don’t panic, don’t panic.” [British television program about the Home Guard; Corporal Jones]
So what happened, what happened for you next, what happened after that occasion?
Oh well

05:03:30:00

I went for the next objective wherever that was, I think we had to turn, swing left and go the other way. And then someone else found this, the Post that I’d left with the couple of grenades in it and a bit of will off the top of it, they’d thirty-five prisoners they took out, or something. They didn’t stick their heads up to have the fight, they waited for someone to come and pick ‘em up, but it could have been nasty, they coulda come

05:04:00:00

out and been warlike and belted the rear of our attack.
Now of course when you’d discovered this Italian fort, you said you threw a few grenades in there, obviously this was part of war, it was part of warfare, what happened was that obviously people were killed or injured when that was concerned. Now I believe you have a particular view

05:04:30:00

of what was more foremost in your mind, the taking of land or the killing of people in that process. I mean how often were you preoccupied by the fact that people were dying in the taking of land?
No, no.
You were not preoccupied?
I didn’t see my grenade blow anyone up, you know, I dropped ‘em in, just when I happened to be and there were, I take it, quite a few passengers underneath the place

05:05:00:00

and might have just reverberated around. But the crowd that eventually took the prisoners, they said there were a couple of dead men in there, but so what.
In the course of the warfare that you were involved in, did you ever dwell on the fact that you were involved in actions where lives were lost on both sides?
No.
You didn’t.
No. There were occasions

05:05:30:00

as we’ll get onto in Syria but where I took part in, well I was waiting in ambush while the French Foreign Legion, whoever they were, came down the hill and we waited until we saw the whites of their eyes, as the saying goes, and blew hell out of them. And then I’m second-in-command of the battalion with my job to, in the middle of the night, pitch black

05:06:00:00

darkness, to take a bunch of prisoners right down from the top of the hill, down to where they could be put into custody with the British battalion. Now I was a bit upset with that, I knew there were a couple of characters there that were pretty well off but I got about as fast as I could.
What do you mean a couple of characters that were pretty well off, what do you mean by that?
Mmm?
What do you mean, you say

05:06:30:00

you got upset by the fact there were a couple of characters that were pretty well off, can you explain what you mean by that?
Did I say that? I probably meant pretty far gone [badly wounded], you know, but they were just walking and that was all. And they’d been hit with, we’d Tommy guns at that stage, and you get

05:07:00:00

hit at short range with one of those Tommy guns with the ammunition that they were in was just a horrible thing. Now how many dead we left there, I don't know.
Once again these were French Foreign Legion men were they?
Yeah.
So you did, obviously you did dwell on that situation where you were obviously affected, I mean it seems to me that you were fairly affected by the sight of the wounded on that occasion?
No. Well,

05:07:30:00

I didn’t collect them after bringing them down and I was given a body of men to take down below and I said, “Follow me.” You know that was the point, and I knew that some had wounds that they were only just struggling along, that was all.
From there at

05:08:00:00

that occasion there at Tobruk, I just want to move in from the process of warfare to find out what was your opinion of the Italians as an enemy?
Well it goes back a century or so and on what the Italians did against the Austrians and what they didn’t do. But if we knew anything about that you didn’t expect

05:08:30:00

‘em to do much. But then again, what we discovered that in each of these posts was say, thirty to fifty men in each post and there was at least one Black Shirt [fascist cadre], Mussolini’s man, to keep ‘em honest, make them brave. And once he was out of the way, well, talk about killing, we couldn’t possibly

05:09:00:00

have killed a quarter of them, we didn’t have enough ammunition you know, that was the point. And they were a pushover except for a couple of places where they had artillery with guns which we didn’t have, you know, that was the point.
You used the expression, ‘to keep them honest’ in relation to Mussolini’s Black Shirts. How were Mussolini’s Black Shirts keeping them honest?
Well presumably

05:09:30:00

they’d put the word round, that, “If you fellas don’t fight properly we’ll knock you off”, you know, “We’ll do it”. And they were ruthless enough there and but then again I saw, that was later at Tobruk, I’d gone up the line of prisoners that were winding down the hill and I look round for my blokes and I was at least half a mile away from

05:10:00:00

them, I was just there. And I had a big Webley pistol which had a striking pin about that long. And I’m doing more or less this on it, and saying, “Put your guns down there, put your guns down there, put your guns down,” and I’d a pile of pistols about this high. And they were all happy, and of course the occasional one who spoke English, they could have a joke

05:10:30:00

with you at that stage, the war was over for them, that was it.
Can I get you to talk a little bit more about the taking of prisoners at, presumably at Bardia and Tobruk? To start with, what were the first Italian prisoners that you’d actually encountered?

05:11:00:00

I can’t say I had many encounters with them. If we were at Bardia we were given various objectives, “Take that post over there.” And you’d have a bit of a firefight and then they’d start putting their heads up and crawling out and becoming prisoners as they went back. And you’d very promptly go on to the next one

05:11:30:00

to do it over. I think that we let the rules of war down to a certain extent; we left too many able-bodied people behind us, assuming that they were non-combatants and we didn’t suffer by it, because it wasn’t good warfare.

05:12:00:00

And but see when you get prisoners in their thousands, this was like a long crocodile about six abreast coming down a hill like that, you could see onto it. And I say I was flat out just to collect their pistols and no-one attempted to do anything to me and I did have a loaded pistol in my hand but, you know, that would have been one shot and that was finished.

05:12:30:00

And it was a good exercise for us but it wasn’t really good warfare.
I believe at a certain point you had to find out where the Italian supplies were hidden so that you could feed and water the prisoners?
Oh someone else did that.
So how difficult was it to feed and water the prisoners?
Well it was in the number of them. The day that

05:13:00:00

I had the compound, let me think back, we’d had the people running round with trucks and so on finding where their dumps were and getting their spaghetti and water in their water carts and that, that was some other unit, that was probably ASC [Army Service Corps] or something behind us doing that. But, we didn’t have anything to do with it but the stuff that was there, landed on

05:13:30:00

the spot and then we had to distribute that. Well I think this compound we reckoned had ten thousand prisoners and I think I had twenty feeding points, that’s about all the men I had. And if they had a, well they’d have to have a container but they had a tin or something, they’d get a

05:14:00:00

tin full of say spaghetti or some sort of pasta and a can of water and off they’d go. If they said, “I want more,” you’d say, “There’s no more,” you know, that it going. Now that took I think three hours for them to all go through those twenty points and then it’s time for the next meal you know.
So how did you react to this routine of

05:14:30:00

having to look after prisoners, after all you’d been through up until this point?
I wasn’t really concerned, I...
But surely you wanted to get back into the thick of the action?
What do you mean?
Were you keen to get back into some sort of battle action after being involved in all of this?

05:15:00:00

Well no, this is after the battle had finished more or less and this is a, the prisoners had been collected into this great compound and there was an effort to feed them, and we were there really to look after them. Not so they didn’t run away but we could have stopped that anyway, the gates were wide open and that was, that

05:15:30:00

was easy. And we took it just as something like a weekend exercise, you know, just no worries.
Okay, I was asking you from the viewpoint of the research which mentioned that you found this work a little tedious after a while and so I thought I’d sound you out about it but apparently you enjoyed it, so I won’t ask you that one.
No I can’t think but

05:16:00:00

it was also outside Tobruk I think, might have been outside Bardia, I had a water point for a day to provide water for the Army of the Nile actually, they had a great line of vehicles out over the hill and that was just tedious and hot and, well I wasn’t doing it, I was directing it you know. There

05:16:30:00

was a difference but I had a couple of blokes who were very good at organising things and they, we got it through. And I got a...
So after this point, what happened for you next? I think there was a point in which your malaria re-flared didn’t it?
Well at one stage I went, I had to take my platoon further on up to Derna, that was about as far

05:17:00:00

west as I went in that one and I’m not sure whether there’s an aerodrome there or what. Anyway we went, then back into Tobruk and then we had orders to move and that was alright. And ultimately we loaded into trucks

05:17:30:00

to go back down this dusty road and was half way along there that my malaria jumped up again. And I was in the back of a big loaded truck, loaded with people and having shivers and goodness knows what. Eventually they said, “No, we’ll have to get you out of this.” I was ‘non compos’, you know,

05:18:00:00

‘mentis’ type of thing [non compos mentis, Latin; ‘not master of his mind’, mad]. I couldn’t have cared less if someone just shot me at that point; I was really down with it, but worse than I’d had it earlier.
So where did they send you at this point?
Well I was taken off at Mersa Matruh I think and I finished up in a British hospital in Cairo and at that stage I was just about right.

05:18:30:00

And they had quinine I think came in and some doses of quinine, which of course that’s the first place and this knocked the wogs [germs, virus] in my blood for the next time. Next time someone examined me they couldn’t find ‘em, you know, that’s the point. They put me on convalescence then on a houseboat on the Nile.

05:19:00:00

That sounds very nice?
It was very nice too, an honorary membership of the Gezirah Club, which ’d knock any other club around the place and it would top that.
What was the Gezirah Club?
Pardon?
What was this club?
Oh well this was on Gezirah Island [now called Zamalek] on the Nile and this was the real high tone club of Cairo.

05:19:30:00

I don't know whether they had any Egyptians in it or not but there were French and British and all the rest of it. And they had good meals and their own golf course. So we, it didn’t last long enough.
How long did it last?
Oh I couldn’t say, it was a matter of maybe a couple of weeks but then I was back to Palestine to training

05:20:00:00

battalion for a while.
I just need to check something here. So what had happened to the rest of the division at this time?
Well, these battles had been carried out essentially by the 16th Brigade,

05:20:30:00

that’s the 2/1st, 2/2nd and 2/3rd [Battalions], no, there were some Victorians too from the 17th Brigade, they were on another front for. Colonel Savage was the first to have made a demonstration. Anyway, he sort of turned it into a battle instead of just a

05:21:00:00

demonstration and there were high words flew between generals and so on and so forth and quite a while about it apparently. It’s all set out in Gavin Long’s [Official War Historian, World War II] book.
Oh his official war history?
What?
His official history?
Yeah, the official history.
Now, while you’re in Tobruk, I believe you met up with your father didn’t you?
Oh yes well now let’s

05:21:30:00

see. Because of my malaria, my brother was commissioned before me see, we went in at the same time and he came out first. But and of course he was unmarried, he’s decked himself out and my Dad came up on, oh that’s right, his unit had come through,

05:22:00:00

they went past us, past Tobruk, and he picked up my brother, and that’s right he was driving a truck.
Now we hadn’t established before now that your father had enlisted for World War II, although he’d certainly served in World War I. Could you tell us what division, what unit your father was

05:22:30:00

part of?
Well, he got into the reinforcements of the 6th Division Cavalry Regiment and I’m not sure, I got one of my mother’s letters there would, with the chit chat in ‘em telling just when about, but he was about a year behind us I think or thereabouts, he must have been.

05:23:00:00

And he happened to be in the same division and he got a lot of cheek and he was able to get leave when he wanted to come and see his dear boys and he did. But this day I was out doing something, I must have been on the flat feet I think. And I see a truck coming along and here’s my father and my brother, and my brother is decked out with his cap and all the rest of it, a greatcoat. And he just looked

05:23:30:00

like a, and someone said he looked like an advertisement for Army Club cigarettes, and he had a good time. And oh, he turned out a very fine soldier; he was good and I never really came to grips with the fact that he was killed unduly.
Now one thing we didn’t cover earlier in the interview was that you’d been very close to your brother when you were growing up, weren’t you?

05:24:00:00

Oh yes we were, well there was three of us, there was my eldest sister and me and then ‘Chig’ we called him, was my brother. And he was big enough to sort of help me in exploits because I know my second brother, the one who lives in Bega

05:24:30:00

at the moment, he was a baby, we were living in Bankstown then. We’d had one of these old prams with wheels about that size and just came in. And we’d seen my father and my uncle, my mother’s brother, playing round and with a

05:25:00:00

a light sulky and laying underneath it and lifting it and with the wheels going over, you know. I said, “We can do that with the pram.” So I lay down and these wheels were half-way over me like that and one third brother laying over here bawling his head off [crying loudly] see, that was the funny bit. I could see

05:25:30:00

I was a restraining influence, but this next brother of mine, he was a devil all the time and he had a cheeky look about him all the time you see.
This was Chig?
Yeah, yeah. Yes, he’s a...
He had a cheeky look about him, was he a cheeky person?
Well by cheeky look I suppose, well I’ve

05:26:00:00

got a small photo of him somewhere but...
What sort of a person, could you describe him as a personality?
Oh yes he’s a personality and actually his men absolutely loved him, the platoon he had various places. And they, when he was killed, he was killed

05:26:30:00

from a bloke who run out from behind a white flag, so it was murder, straight. And he was commanding the attacking troops and stood up and he had a walking stick too at that stage, he put on all the act, this is what I mean cheeky, he was a typical officer, and a bloke shot him. Anyway they were gonna kill the rest of these Germans and

05:27:00:00

someone stopped them.
In other words his men, when they saw what had happened, were going to massacre the Germans?
Yeah, yeah.
Who stopped them doing that?
Oh the second-in-command of the battalion I think, Major someone or other. The perpetrator, they got him, and I was speaking only fairly recently to a chap who said, “I saw him”. “What they did to that fellow?” He said, “They knocked him over

05:27:30:00

with a Tommy gun, this bloke started at his feet and went right through him like that with a Tommy gun, a full magazine with a Tommy gun right through up to his head.” He said, “I never seen anything like it in my life.” It would have been a brutal thing you know, as it was.
These are the Australians that did this?
Mmm?
These were the Australians that did this?
Yeah.
The chaps in your brother’s unit

05:28:00:00

did this in retaliation?
Yes it was retaliation. But I only got this second hand, I didn’t see the bloke that did it, that was probably his sergeant I think that did it. And but...
What impact did receiving that news have on you, the fact that your brother had died and he’d died under those sort of circumstances?
Well we’d heard so many things.

05:28:30:00

I went, when they came back from Greece, the remnants of them, I was in our Recruit Training Battalion at Gaza. And I went down to the train to welcome him and he wasn’t there and then we started to find out. See what happened,

05:29:00:00

course we’ve jumped into Crete now, but never mind... What happened was that towards the end in Crete, their CO [Commanding Officer], Colonel, it’ll come to me soon, he decided that there was no point in fighting, they’d only be all

05:29:30:00

killed if they kept fighting. They’d really massacred the Germans there but you know, there were more German reinforcements coming in, and he surrendered the balance of his battalion. And that was how many hundred men I don't know that went, so things were completely disorganised.
But what response, what reaction did you have when you heard that your brother had been killed?

05:30:00:00

Well I didn’t know for maybe a year or so because of another Stanton in the battalion and who’s gone as a prisoner, and Red Cross sort of got onto him and said, “That’s him. Oh no it isn’t, oh well where is he?” And it wasn’t until some of the 2/1st blokes who had escaped from Greece and come back

05:30:30:00

through Turkey in civilian clothes and got down into Palestine that we heard from one of his officers that he’d been killed. And at that stage we’d exhausted every other thing round the place. Now I’ve never come to terms with the fact that he was killed, I think he shouldn’t have been killed, that was the point. And he was too fine an officer to be done that to, and that was the general opinion round the

05:31:00:00

place. There it was and that was, 1942 I think, ‘41.
Now I understand that you, because of your illness you didn’t go to Greece?
No.
But what happened to the men in your division that went to Greece, what happened there?
Well, the 2/1st Battalion was my battalion

05:31:30:00

most of them came out, there were a few killed and a few taken prisoner. And I’ve still got blokes, I’ve got an association, I’ve got a meeting on Friday actually where they, that’s right, one of them, two of the prisoners will be at this meeting

05:32:00:00

on Friday, so it’s...
So I understand that once you became well, once you’d recovered from the malaria, you were moved to Palestine?
Yeah.
That was what happened next for you wasn’t it? Now this is just moving us back to when you had the flare up of malaria and you were given a...?
Well that was, I went to the convalescence and I went back to the, what do they call it, training battalion or something like that.

05:32:30:00

And it was the obvious first step to going back to your unit and then I went back to the unit, we had Syria then.
Now I believe that in Syria you had to fight the Vichy French? Can you talk us a bit through what you did in Syria, I’ll just leave it to you to tell us the story?

05:33:00:00

What we did, we had lost a fair proportion of the battalion in Greece, in killed and wounded and so on. And then we handed over a hundred men and officers to the 2/1st Battalion and the 2/2nd did the same to make up those that’d gone off to

05:33:30:00

custody in Germany. And we got the word we were; I remember getting on the train at Ashqelon, which is near our Julis camp, we’re back in the Julis camp. And that took us through Haifa

05:34:00:00

and then across to, what’s the big lake, anyway...
Sea of Galilee?
Mmm?
The Sea of Galilee?
The Sea of Galilee, underneath that, south of it and to a place called Deraa, D-E-R-A
There we arrived in the evening, oh, we’d had some trouble in the trains,

05:34:30:00

I forget now but some carriage broke loose or something, anyway that was, no one was hurt there. And we got over, must have been evening, and we got onto a weird collection of buses heading up towards Damascus. And Deraa was directly south of Damascus I must say. And then we went along, some of the buses overturned, and

05:35:00:00

they were bad drivers and bad roads and all the rest of it. But we got within spitting distance practically of Damascus and we were hauled out and deployed out on the side and then we went up against some, I think they were black troops from the French,

05:35:30:00

Sanoussie from Africa, that’s right. And the point was that around Damascus there were a number of hills on this side, and there were a number of French-built forts, reinforced concrete and all the rest of it, of the thing. And we had to climb the hills and

05:36:00:00

we were given two forts I think, my company were given two forts to take. And the first one, we took at the, they ran out on us. The second one I think they put up a bit of a fight but we had one platoon there that had a go at them. And then

05:36:30:00

another company went across to the road from Damascus to the coast at, near Beirut, no, it’s south of the Litani River. And then

05:37:00:00

we captured a lot of vehicles from a road block, they cut down some telephone ...
Oh telegraph poles basically?
telegraph poles and put ‘em across the road and that was that. Then we decided to do a flying column [mobile advance group] on the main road to Deraa, no,

05:37:30:00

no, anyway south of the Litani River.
What do you mean by the term ‘flying column’?
Oh well I’m just, I don't know, no, it was we had some guns, some hard

05:38:00:00

artillery going along with us, we had ambulances and so on and so forth, we had more or less a self-contained unit that could go through. Except it didn’t go through because they had guns up on top of a mountain there or a hill called Jebel Mazar, and they stopped us. And that was a

05:38:30:00

nasty afternoon because I was, we had to deploy on each side, well one side of the main road. And it was flattened there as that you know, it was get down and scratch yourself so hold, put your hands in it practically. And of course the point was before we started the

05:39:00:00

morning on this show, our Officers Mess had been trying to function round the place. Anyway they came up with, they said, “You’ve got to take a bottle of whisky,” and okay. So I got a bottle of whisky and I said, “How am I gonna carry this?” And my smart sergeant, Bill Ponting, said, “Put it into water bottle I’ll get you

05:39:30:00

another water bottle” and he didn’t. So I’m there, I go into this very hot day and so on, and there’s nasty business of laying flat on our faces with shells bursting all around us. Course they had the dead lot on us, and that was a nasty thing. And I had one chap, an ex First World War man come to me he said, “Look, I can’t stand this, this is worse than anything that I suffered in the First World War.”

05:40:00:00

I said, “Well go then.” And he went, I never saw him again. But...
Now can we, this is going really well but can we resume this on the next tape, because we’re...?
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 06

06:00:34:00

You were just talking us through a particular action and you mentioned the man from the 1914-18 war who got a bit worried?
Oh yes, well he said, you know, he was just dead scared, no doubt about it and...
So what did you do with him?
Well I evacuated him, I said, “On your way,” and someone else did it.

06:01:00:00

Now what...?
In the First War I’d have shot him, you know, that’s the point.
If it had been the First World War you’d have shot him?
Maybe. Yeah.
Maybe. Were they the standard instructions at the time were they?
From what you, I don't know...
For someone who was scared, he’d be shot? Sounds a bit radical.
Well anyone who disobeyed an order could be, see, that was the point.
Oh and this is what had happened here, he’d actually disobeyed an order had he?
Oh I don't know, I don't know any

06:01:30:00

cases of anyone ever being shot, but you know, but you kidded yourself and you, it was going to happen.
Now you were just talking us through a particular action and things sounded fairly tense at this time, could you continue that story for us?
Now, what was...
I suppose I’m wanting an overall view of what action you were involved in, in Syria,

06:02:00:00

because from reading the research I don’t have a clear view of what happened in what order and what you were mostly doing there. I mean I think it was in Syria that you got your MID [Mentioned in Dispatches] didn’t you?
Oh probably.
For action in Syria?
Yeah.
So could you give us, and we could probably go back for further detail, but could you give us an overall summary of what you did in Syria?
Yeah.
What you first did there and then what proceeded after that?

06:02:30:00

Well it’d be much easier if I knew what the rest of the battalion were doing and that was the, that’s the point. Because it was so disjointed, now I was on this flying column we were talking about weren’t we, that we went and we had to get down on as flat as that, as clear as that. And

06:03:00:00

they’re sitting up on top of a mountain there, directing gunfire down. And I had my platoon, oh and I had the whole company and part of another company that I’m looking after while the OC [Officer Commanding] went forward to find out what to do. And they went hundreds of yards or half a mile further. And I’m there waiting and

06:03:30:00

the shells are coming in, and...
Can I just have an idea of what your objective was here, what were you actually trying to do?
Trying to stay alive.
Apart from that, were you trying to re-capture territory from the Vichy French?
We were trying to get through to the coast, that’s from Damascus; we’d captured Damascus,

06:04:00:00

And we’d gone through and here we’re waiting for the next move. Now I got inspired and these blokes were flat on their faces, I’ve never seen anyone as flat on their face. There was one of my officers I think he was burying in with his nose practically getting deeper and deeper in.

06:04:30:00

And something ’d say to me, ‘The next salvo of shells is going to land just about here’ so I’d say, grab these blokes, “Go over there twenty yards.” And they’d get up and go for hell and flat down again like that and the next lot of shells ’d come down just where I said, and that happened three or four times. Anyway there’s people getting a bit jumpy, and I was very lucky about this bottle of whisky, because I could say to a bloke, “How are you

06:05:00:00

feeling?” “Oh...” I said, “Have a swig of this.” He’d have a swig of this, “Oh, that was good,” see, and it went very well. And I had a bit myself now and again, but not much.
Where did you get the whisky from?
From my own mess. They’d brought it up just as we started off and without any containers other than the, you know and I wasn’t gonna carry a bottle around so I put it in my water bottle. And he promised

06:05:30:00

to get me another water bottle, he didn’t though, I never got him for that.
So you had access to absolute hundred percent whisky did you?
Yes, yeah.
And what would the men have done without that whisky?
Well I don't know, they didn’t all have some, that was you know, the worst cases that I could see was where a bloke a bit shaky. And I’d have, oh, it is a great healer whisky,

06:06:00:00

if you have it in sufficient quantities.
When you say there was a bloke a bit shaky, what was his problem?
Oh you could tell straight away that he’s… number one he’s shaking with fear that the next salvo of shells is gonna land on his head. There was one man killed there, he wasn’t under my command there, but it’s just landed down and a great

06:06:30:00

shell splinter about this long, came whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, like that and went straight through him, killed him stone dead. And that’d happened, and they all knew it had happened and might happen to the next man.
So this chap that you’ve mentioned who was particularly shaky,
Oh well he’d gone by this time.
did you give him some of the whisky?
No, no, that’d be waste, wouldn’t it. Need it.
Were you sharing, you know, I mean how much

06:07:00:00

of this whisky were you sharing about to the other men?
Oh I don't know, I know that at the end of the day things had calmed down and we moved backwards from this position to a place where there was a water cart. I was able then to put some real water into my water bottle, which was stone empty at that stage. And

06:07:30:00

oh I hadn’t had the lot but, no I hadn’t had much at all, cause I had to keep a clear head and...
So what happened after that day in terms of what you were doing there in Syria?
Well we then about faced and we went round. We’d headed for the coast which was over there and

06:08:00:00

we’d been stopped, we then turned round went round and then went round the back of this mountain where the guns were, where the observation post was anyway and we were supposed to go up and capture that. In the meantime before we’d gone to Syria at all one of our companies had been detached to go with the 7th Division which had gone up the centre of Syria.

06:08:30:00

And at this stage it came back to us with orders, the same orders we had, to go up this hill and capture the top. Well they got to the top and really talked to the French there and there were a few men killed and we lost a couple of officers captured or something like that, but the French still held out there. Now

06:09:00:00

I was then second-in-command of combined Don and B Company and I had to do all the administrative work and so on of getting supplies and doing it and mostly carrying the damn stuff all myself, including a case of beer and bottles at one stage

06:09:30:00

that had come up one of our back points. And...
So how were you conveying all this material, how were you actually carrying it?
On my back.
The lot?
Not a full case of beer, no, no, I might have had a dozen bottles. But then at one stage there I had another man, I had a man with me. But

06:10:00:00

then I had other things to do, but I had to spend one night by myself on top of a big rock I got onto. Cause I walked round one side and there’s a French black troop from Sanoussie or somewhere like that with a blooming bayonet about this long you know and a sharpened bayonet like a needle,

06:10:30:00

it’d go straight through anything. And he’s wandering round so I chased him away and I thought I’d get up on top of the rock and I’ll be right here for the night but I never had a bit of sleep. But then I got back to the battalion and we hadn’t done very, oh, that’s right and I’d had to take an artillery observer to get up on top of this

06:11:00:00

mountain and establish an observation post there. I had a couple of mules and this English observer, and looked at it as far as I could and then we came against an absolutely sheer

06:11:30:00

wall all the way along, there was no way we were going to get the mules up that. And in looking out this way, there’s a line of Frenchmen advancing round the thing and I said, “Well I can’t do any better for you here.” Well he said, “I’ll try myself like this way” and I think he took his radio and so on with him and tried. Anyway he got himself lost in the thing, I got away with the

06:12:00:00

mules and I don't know what I did with ‘em then but I had to get back with the battalion.
So I’m just trying to, you were second-in-command of the battalion I think weren’t you, at this point?
No, I was second in-command of a company.
Of a company, and you’re also in charge of supplies?
Well that’s what the second-in-command is supposed to do in the show, he looked after all the administrative work which is involved

06:12:30:00

and particularly when a company is detached from the rest of the battalion, as it’s known. And I always seemed to have fall for the job, I did it in New Guinea as well. I...
So you said you were carrying the supplies and you said you were not carrying a crate of beer, but what sort of supplies were you carrying?
Oh I’m not sure now, there were

06:13:00:00

and couldn’t have been very heavy stuff really.
Were you, in what were you carrying the supplies, what were you using to carry the supplies?
Well I didn’t have any vehicle, I didn’t have a pushbike, I didn’t have the, only, I had men who could do some carrying but only now and again. And it’s the haziest part of my experiences I think there.
But I mean what sort of supplies

06:13:30:00

were they, are we talking about food?
Well it could be.
Or are we talking about ammunition and arms?
Might be ammunition but it depends, we had a supply point which used to send up things, you know, it might be mail even that came up. And those still

06:14:00:00

on the hill were certainly getting no water and little food, the supply idea had broken down. And maybe a part of my time was to go and see whether I could scrounge and find out what was going on back in the battalion, because we were, leaders lead in at that stage you might say.
It sounds incredibly chaotic?

06:14:30:00

Well it was chaotic, it’s been made it partly by us and partly by the French. They’d...
How so, I mean how had both parties contributed to this sense of chaos? I mean the Australians for a start, you say ‘partly by us and partly by the French,’ you defined earlier your objective to get through to the coast?
Yeah.
And so in what way were the Australians responsible for the chaos?

06:15:00:00

Well because we were split up to such an extent. I say this C Company had been detached from us beforehand and came back unexpectedly. And did a darn good job actually and then ultimately had to retire from it which they did in dead of night and down the steepest part of the cliffs. But...

06:15:30:00

So in what way were the French responsible for the chaos?
Because they were there, that’s the point.
I mean, can you describe the French as an enemy, how did you find the French?
Oh well you could, we were running up against the Frenchmen, you’d talk to them and he’d say, “Why are you fighting, there are no Germans here?” And why we were fighting ‘em was that we had,

06:16:00:00

well I used to say good intelligence, it seemed to be about as good as recent intelligence that we’ve found in world affairs.
Sorry, can you just clarify that for me again, what are you saying about intelligence?
No, I think that there was sufficient

06:16:30:00

in it for higher command to say, “We’ll have to stop the Germans coming into Syria because they’ll get behind us that way,” because this was the way to do it. Now of course Syria was a French stronghold and there we sort of broke up into the Vichy French and the Free French. And the Free French were on our side and the Vichy French were on the other,

06:17:00:00

and they wore the same uniforms and so on, spoke the same language and did the same nasty things. And we, I suppose assisted in that.
In what way?
By not having any proper command. Now our CO at the time had been captured by the French at one stage and escaped later on and there were some nasty stories about him.

06:17:30:00

He disappeared, he was never heard of again when, and...
And how would you tell the Free French and the Vichy French apart?
Well they had a little badge, little Free French badge and double crosses or something, it was about this size and they wore it on the thing. That’s how you tell them.
If you were some way away from them, it must have been fairly difficult?

06:18:00:00

If you close up to them you wouldn’t cause they had another one which was, but...
I just need to clarify; you said that the French would say to you, “Why are you fighting us?”
Oh that’s the Vichy French.
The Vichy French would say that?
Yeah.
What sort of answer could you give to that kind of statement or that kind of question?
Well they didn’t ask me but they asked my friend, Colin

06:18:30:00

Murchison when he was commanding C Company. They’d say, “There are no Germans here, why are you fighting?” And his reply was, “Because we were told to.”
Now I believe at one stage you had to go round the back of the enemy for some skirmishes before you were able to break through to help the 7th Division? Where, can you talk us through that particular experience?

06:19:00:00

Well after this, after we stopped skirmishing on this Jebel Mazar, and that is after I’d taken this group of prisoners down to hand them over to one of the British battalions to take as prisoners. We then decided we wouldn’t try going round the front of this Jebel Mazar and we’d go down further down

06:19:30:00

another way across Syria which ultimately we did without opposition, because the 7th Division had pushed up far enough to keep going. But...
And you were saying your CO got caught by the French, what did happen there do you know?
I don't know, I’ve

06:20:00:00

heard several accounts. One account was that he was crawling under the table and saying, “Don’t let them shoot me,” see. And that was strongly denied by another chap who was there and then someone else said the old man put up a good show and someone else says, “The old fella was never

06:20:30:00

any good,” see so that was the point, I wasn’t there, I was miles away.
What was the name of the CO?
Lamb. And he had been given command after our good CO, Colonel England, was taken off to other jobs after the desert, the Bardia, Tobruk thing.

06:21:00:00

Now I believe you used a raiding style at one stage, a fairly complex raiding style on the French. I think that was around Damascus was it?
Raiding?
Yes, the style of battle that was used to push the Vichy French out of Damascus I believe was a series of raids, did you have any knowledge of that?
No.

06:21:30:00

There were other troops involved in this Damascus thing. I doubt if we got close enough, I think we were out in the hills trying to clear up the rest of it.
Now you of course were Mentioned in Despatches for your action in this section of the Syria campaign, can you say for what

06:22:00:00

particular action or series of actions you were Mentioned in Despatches?
No.
You have no idea why you...?
No one tells you.
Have you hypothesised or have you put any thought into why you may have been Mentioned in Despatches?
No. There’s just no way of finding out. I’ve got a certificate there with a you know, “His Majesty is greatly pleased” and so on and so

06:22:30:00

forth. But my own feeling is, I’m sure that at least twice I was probably recommended for a Military Cross, that’s the officer’s proper decoration. And that in each time I was number, you know, odd man out on the list and they said, “We’ll give you an MID, that’s the best we could do”.

06:23:00:00

So what do you think those actions were for which you felt you warranted the Military Cross?
Now, this is later on towards the eventual cease-fire and we were heading on towards

06:23:30:00

Beirut up in the hills and I did a couple of things there. I took five mules and the remains of my platoon and umpteen boxes of ammunition and took ‘em down gorges and up gorges and hills to get them to

06:24:00:00

a company of ours that were running out of ammunition were down in a forward position. And being a 2IC [second-in-command] or a version of a 2IC at that stage, I was sort of grabbed to do something about it, and I did. You know, that’s one thing but otherwise I was mostly to be seen when something was going wrong somewhere

06:24:30:00

but you know, ‘also ran’.
An ‘also ran’, why do you consider yourself on that, in that light?
Well ‘also ran’ on that occasion, that you’re not top priority man on it. And I could write a treatise on the award of decorations in wartime because

06:25:00:00

that occasion in Tobruk I was telling you about where I carried out my orders and others didn’t, and one got shot in the belly and they both got Military Crosses. I had to give (UNCLEAR) for a Military Cross.
Must be fairly frustrating actually.
Yeah. I never let it be though, I never let it worry

06:25:30:00

me.
Now for you, how did the Syrian campaign end as far as your own involvement was concerned?
The which place, which one?
As far as your own involvement in Syrian was concerned, how did things end for you in Syria, what was your last activity in Syria before you..?
Well we headed out into these hills and ravines

06:26:00:00

well in from the coast in Syria and we were heading towards Beirut, which was then their capital. And on the night of the cease-fire, on the day preceding that night of the cease-fire, my

06:26:30:00

platoon consisted of myself and eight men instead of thirty. And there was no other officer, I was, no I didn’t have another officer and I think I might have had a sergeant but I didn’t have, maybe a corporal. Anyway we’d come; we were on

06:27:00:00

a forward slope, they’re over there looking at us and firing a seventy-five gun [75mm gun] it was. And I remember I divided my men up into three sections, I had one section with two men and there were three men in the other one and three men in the other one.

06:27:30:00

And I was underneath a tree of some sort and there was a great big boulder just down by it. And I said to one of my blokes, “Well put your head down behind this and we’ll be alright.” See, they could practically see where we were and they weren’t firing. Anyway next thing there’s a mighty bang and one of these seventy-five shells landed dead in the front of the rock

06:28:00:00

that we were behind. Well thank God it was a big rock but it certainly made your head ring for a while, and so that was... Anyway shortly after that I found the, my company commander, Ian Hutchison. And I said, “Hutch, what are we gonna do to get out of

06:28:30:00

this?” He said, “We will attack at dawn,” see. I said, “Like hell we will.” We, we countered later, anyway just in time our intelligence came across with a, they had an Aldis lamp [signal lamp, named after the inventor] about two miles behind us, then they went flash, flash, the Aldis, there’s to be a cease fire at, I think it was one a.m.,

06:29:00:00

or something like that. But no one told the French and they kept firing away. And then we heard a motorbike start up, somewhere in the, was going round the posts. As they got round to each post and the firing stopped, so that was about I think two hours after our official cease-fire that we were still being shelled. Anyway at that stage I think that

06:29:30:00

my platoon, they want me and these ragged six blokes or whatever it is, were the closest to Beirut which was our battalion objective for the whole thing. And I remember then we got a few blokes back and then coming down out of the hills on the coastal road, and I had six

06:30:00:00

French Foreign Legion prisoners with me and they’d carried the ammunition up the hill for me, which was not exactly Articles of War type of thing, anyway they did. Came out on the coast and my Dad was down there then, said, “G’day (UNCLEAR).” There we,

06:30:30:00

there we got it. But this was, and then we did Army of Occupation in Syria for a long time, we were in a little village called Fah Hazier [?] and we had to, we had part of the village for ourselves, and we had to

06:31:00:00

cook house.
So what did your occupation duties consist of?
Well just being there I think, being there, we moved into Beirut and at once, I copped the job of OC Brothels, which means I had to go round and

06:31:30:00

see there were no fights and so on going on, and that was only one day.
So were the Australians in charge of the brothels?
No.
In terms of administration? So how did you or anyone come to be OC Brothels?
Well they were our blokes; they were the main customers. And they’d get drunk and obstreperous

06:32:00:00

and want to do over the staff of the brothel and so on. And we were, I had a couple of strongarm blokes, we could go round and...
Could you describe these brothels for me?
No.
What, as far as you could see, I mean how close did you get to the brothels?
Oh to their waiting rooms. But the French had

06:32:30:00

had brothels before there, we saw them there, where they had a queue about two hundred yards long of men right down the road, waiting to come in.
These were the Free French?
No, the Vichy.
Oh the Vichy French?
I think, I don't know.
So this is while you were there in occupation?
Yeah.
And the Vichy French were still there and they were making use of their own brothels presumably.

06:33:00:00

I imagine...?
I don't know whether they had any division in the thing, it might have been I think the French, once they packed it in, that was the finish of them. And all they did was and there was some nasty people in Syria who liked to string wires across roads and cut off the heads of Don Rs [Despatch Rider on a motorcycle] and so on and so forth, bit of that went on.

06:33:30:00

And...
So you were involved in policing those sorts of activities as well I presume?
No, only to the extent if there was any special duties to do on it, we didn’t have an overall role of being. But...
So why have you just mentioned that incident, is that something that you were generally

06:34:00:00

aware of at the time or did you have any involvement in helping to sort that sort of situation out?
What, with the cutting off heads?
Yeah. You’ve mentioned it so I just wondered if that’d, that came within your jurisdiction?
Well I heard of it, and there were a lot of things that well, if there’s anyone who’d been around and seen everything that happened everywhere,

06:34:30:00

he’d be raving mad. So it was, and a lot of the stories were a bit expanded you might say, but it was hard to tell.
So what was the attitude of the Syrians towards the occupying forces?
It depends where you were. I took,

06:35:00:00

that’s why we were there, I took a bus load of blokes on a holiday tour up through the, out to Baalbek and up through the centre of Syria and up as far as Aleppo which was on the Turkish border just about, and brought

06:35:30:00

them down the coast afterwards, and we got good receptions all the way along the place. And you get a particular village, and the old ‘moctar’ [leading figure] of the village would invite you in to have coffee. You’d eat the coffee; it’d be just about solid you know, when it went.
I’ve heard comments from other Veterans that we’ve interviewed,

06:36:00:00

that some of the Syrian men were rather protective of their women when it came to, you know, potential relations between the women and occupying forces?
Well I didn’t see any of that, no.
So for how long did you continue this occupation activity in Syria?
Now let me think.

06:36:30:00

Our last camp there was a place we called ‘Hungry Hollow’, which was outside Damascus. We went through snow there at Christmas time, a bit after that and I think

06:37:00:00

we moved closer to Palestine but I’d become a battalion spare parts thing like that, so I served my time as Transport Officer and time as Assistant Quartermaster. And the new CO, Colonel Stevenson, he was

06:37:30:00

intent on getting me knowledgeable in every aspect of the battalion and I finished up as Transport Officer.
I think you were in...?
Oh that’s right we were still at Hungry Hollow, a place called Fah Hazier.
So how many vehicles were you in charge of as a Transport Officer?
Oh about fifty or sixty, in big ones, little ones and so

06:38:00:00

forth.
What sort of vehicles are we talking about?
Well three-tonners [trucks], Fords and Chevs [Chevrolets] largely. The Fords came through, that’s right, when I took over as Transport Officer, you couldn’t see a vehicle anywhere, they were all under snow, even the big three-tonners was covered right over the top of ‘em. And by the time we got all that snow off them

06:38:30:00

all the Chevs had cracked blocks and all the Fords were alright, so that was okay. And we moved from there and I think that’s where we sort of assembled anyway, this was in Syria, that’s down out of Damascus, and moved down to Suez and took sail.
Now I understand that there was a certain point at which you had to bring the trucks for

06:39:00:00

embarkation to Singapore, is that correct?
Well yes.
Because Singapore figures as part of the story. What was the first that you knew that you might be going to Singapore?
Well...
Oh we’ll pick this up on the next tape, because we’ve run out of tape again...
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 07

07:00:30:00

So Frank if you’d like to pick up from where we left off?
Well I think it was in the context that we’d moved from a place I called Hungry Hollow in Syria and getting ready to, and I was Transport Officer. And I think the next move; point on

07:01:00:00

that was that I took as Transport Officer, I took the old battalion transport down to the Suez Canal. And one highlight of that, I remember we ran through Beersheba and we had a motorcycle platoon I think

07:01:30:00

of twenty-four, twenty-five motorbikes. And I said, “Well we’ll give the folk of Beersheba a show “. So I took the CO’s car for myself and I sat up in the back seat of the CO’s car, which was a big yellow station wagon, a Ford. And lined up the twenty-five

07:02:00:00

motorcycles in front and we went through Beersheba to the plaudits of the inhabitants, which consisted of one Arab, one donkey and one goat at that stage.
Real celebrity stuff, yeah?
Yeah. But anyway we got, but the trouble was that I had this great lot of

07:02:30:00

vehicles and there were others there getting into things and my ship turned out to be the Elphington Court as a good old tramp. And the trouble was I was made OC Troops [commander of embarked troops] of the Elphington Court, which included one of my vehicles, and I think two cooks

07:03:00:00

and oh, one other from my battalion. So I was put in charge of the whole thing. I had to get a scratch crew from, for administration purposes from the rest of them, which were a mixed bunch of Service Corps, about twenty or thirty of them and a few engineers and a few this and that.

07:03:30:00

And a major from field hospital, the Brigade Transport Officer who was a captain at that stage, I was still only a Lieutenant and someone else. So I had a gaggle of officers, none of whom wanted to do any work and

07:04:00:00

some were a bit slighted by putting, they were put under a lieutenant. And I had supreme powers on the ship and of course then I find that my ship was travelling by itself all the way from Suez to Colombo. Now we mentioned Singapore before but I think that was a

07:04:30:00

bit of a rumour before, because by this time, Singapore had fallen so we were going to Colombo to train in jungle warfare in the jungle of, what later became Sri Lanka [Ceylon].
How did the news that Singapore had fallen affect you and your mates?

07:05:00:00

I don’t recall, I think we expected it, you know, it was something that couldn’t go on. And there was a period when we thought we were going to go to Singapore and we wanted to clean up everything. And course we were

07:05:30:00

rather confident people and instead of that we did about, oh it might have been six months in Sri Lanka and then I got rid of the transport portfolio and got my third pip in Ceylon.
Just getting

07:06:00:00

back to the journey from the Middle East to Ceylon, what can you tell me about that journey?
From where to?
From the Middle East to Ceylon?
Well it was a bit scary, the captain of this ship, the

07:06:30:00

Elphington Court he was an oldie, he’d been retired and come back I think, a lovely old bloke, and he had good quarters. Anyway he made me welcome to his quarters and meant I could use his loo and so on and so forth. And he didn’t feed me but when I had a

07:07:00:00

oh, bunk down below somewhere. But I was given, right at the start, they said, “You’re OC Troops on this ship” and then another day a bloke came along and gave me a great bundle of English pound notes and said, “Here’s

07:07:30:00

your money for the trip, you gotta pay the troops.” And I said, “Oh right.” And someone else came along, he got a great bundle of stuff, “This is the canteen sot of thing., You gotta sell it at such and such and such.” I said, “Alright.” And I said, “What do I use for change?” “Oh you don’t need change.” I said, “Well that’s very well, you know, good old boys.” And so off we went and

07:08:00:00

I had a pay parade up on deck because there were nowhere else to get them altogether. Course with the wind blowing around and, anyway I lost I think twenty pound on the deal, and applied for it and they said, “No, it’s your own silly fault,” so that wasn’t very encouraging. But the canteen, I scratched my head on this and there was a pay sergeant

07:08:30:00

on board and he had sheets of paper from ledger things, of course it was quite heavy paper. So we reckoned if we cut this up into strips about two, three inches, four inches long and about an inch wide. And he had his company stamp, so we did that and cut these as, and made ‘em worth

07:09:00:00

oh, maybe sixpence each. So I got Sterling pound notes and sixpenny change and I didn’t lose any money on the canteen, so it went really well that way. But otherwise, but when we got in to Colombo and almost immediately, oh that’s right, we started to unload

07:09:30:00

trucks. Because there was a rumour going around that the Japanese having bombed the other side of the island round Trincomalee, were going to do Colombo over. So all the dock workers left and were headed for the hills so the only way we could unload our transport was onto lighters, out in the middle, lower ‘em down in the,

07:10:00:00

and no-one to work the crane and so on. So I found out I had a few blokes on board, our new docker unions [stevedores] and they were able to do a good job, hiring these, picking up these big three-tonners, big yellow ones, from down in the innards

07:10:30:00

and landing ‘em on this, well, open sided raft thing. And I don't think I lost many but there’s a few on there, it’d start to rock and then it’d trip and the three-tonner would roll forward and do a nose dive and into the water. But there’d been some pilfering of Australian

07:11:00:00

beer and at one stage every ship in the harbour had a great row of empty bottles you know, sort of floating this way, this way. And someone said, “It’s all the Elphington Court.” And anyway I found out it was every ship and not only Elphington Court and a delegation came on board and commissioned to see about it and

07:11:30:00

they accepted my story. But the trouble is that someone ’d been pinching the beer somewhere and throwing the bottles overboard, that was the point at the finish. But this was all of course after we’d come back from very soon after arriving in Colombo, we were sent off out to sea again to go ninety miles out to sea because of the Japanese raid coming. But the Japanese raid came

07:12:00:00

and sunk a British Navy ship in the harbour and did quite an amount of damage in the harbour. There were dead bodies floating round there for days and then it was trying to get finished up so, and get the off the ship.
How many dead bodies were there?
Mmm?
How many dead bodies

07:12:30:00

were there?
Well I only saw two but I don't know how many there were but they’d floated up one way and another. And oh that’s right and then there was trouble on board. And the corporal in charge of the Army Service Corps people on board, there were about twenty of them, and he was a corporal and

07:13:00:00

he had a pistol, that was his personal arms. And these characters apparently, they broke down into the hold where we carried a general hospital as well as everything else in this old ship. And they found the rum supply in the

07:13:30:00

general hospital, and got on the rum. And then there was a great thing, this corporal then went more or less berserk and raced round and threatened everyone with his pistol and got down into the crew’s quarters in the foc’s’l’e [forecastle], and someone came and got me so I buckled on my forty-five [0.45mm pistol] and went out.

07:14:00:00

The ship’s crew are calling out, “Mr Stanton, Mr Stanton, come and save us, come and save us,” and on like that. Then another one of this corporal’s own men was getting round with a rifle and his bayonet all set in it, and I got him on side and we ultimately cornered this corporal with the revolver.

07:14:30:00

So I took his revolver from him, put him under close arrest and next day took him ashore and charged him with attempted murder. And of course went back on board and I had to wait there until everything else was off the ship before I could go back to my battalion. And ultimately the powers

07:15:00:00

that be changed my charge from attempted murder to, ‘Conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline’ and he lost his stripes which was one good thing but he was a useless animal. And he had one of his friends was a bloke, another horrible type called Parramatta Jim. And they reckoned that Parramatta Jim would be out gunning for me for years

07:15:30:00

and years thereafter but I never had a run-in [encounter], but that was funny. Anyway that took us into Ceylon and then I fell for also, oh that’s right, I had to go through this court proceeding against this corporal. And it was becoming a little

07:16:00:00

difficult because all my pals are the ones that’d been put in to be the prisoner’s friend [Defending Officer] and so on. And then they give me a grilling, they knew a little bit about the legal side of things and they’d query every evidence that I gave, all the evidence I got they queried it. It’s not true evidence,

07:16:30:00

it’s not this and that, anyway it was quite a doing. But then another thing, I got fitted up with the job of President of more or less a commission to enquire into all the road accidents that’d taken place in Colombo and Ceylon generally while the troops were there. And this was very enlightening because

07:17:00:00

the Colombo population consisted of the Singhalese themselves, a proportion of Indians that had migrated there and these other characters had been creating all the fuss and bother for the last few that were rebels [Tamils]. And then there were what they called the burghers, the

07:17:30:00

sort of half-caste, that had come from the time the Portuguese controlled the place. So they were in effect Europeans, looking like European but speaking Tamil and with the local dialects and they had their jobs in the police and so on. But it wasn’t a

07:18:00:00

bad spot but we got home very, yes I can’t think of anything else that happened there that was really, though the Japanese didn’t come back again and we were right.
So...
I think we had to load onto the Western Land and first call Fremantle and unloaded in Melbourne.

07:18:30:00

And...
So what did you do when you were back in Australia?
Well we went to a camp, I had got some leave early in the piece and went straight through from Melbourne to Canberra and had about a week’s leave, then everyone was recalled urgently. This was after, I say, I had a week’s leave anyway but

07:19:00:00

some had no leave at all. And we had to proceed to Brisbane and join a ship going to New Guinea.
Now during your week’s leave, were you able to meet your daughter for the first time?
Oh yes, yes, yes.
Was that the first time that you’d met your daughter?
Yeah.
Can you talk us through was that experience was like, that must have been quite interesting?

07:19:30:00

Well I arrived on the train first thing in the morning and Jean was living with her parents and they’d changed their house from the last time I was there, they’d moved but I found out where it was. And I went in, I rang the door bell at some un-Godly hour and I got carted in and

07:20:00:00

say well, “Here’s your daughter,” sitting up in the chair eating her breakfast or whatever it was and smearing stuff all over her face. And it was quite a thing and she didn’t think that I was anyone of any importance whatsoever; you see it was, yes.
Must have been lovely and heartbreaking all in the one moment?
Yes, it’s a very

07:20:30:00

funny thing, ultimately we became good mates and so on and so forth, it was only in later years that we haven’t done too well, but I’ve got some others there. Well then of course racing to New Guinea we were poured onto one of those American

07:21:00:00

ships that they made with only welded joints and so on, what they called the Liberty Ships and landed in Port Moresby and up into the hills, boiled up great vats of green dye and dyed all our khaki things green.
This was in Port Moresby?
Yeah, well this is up in the hills above Port

07:21:30:00

Moresby, just before the start of the Kokoda Track.
So can you describe, cause I haven’t actually heard of this dyeing process, can you talk about the process of dyeing the clothes, what was involved?
Dyeing them?
Mmm.
Well as far as I can see you, firstly you’ve gotta have water and you’ve gotta have dye and you make it, you tested it’s green enough and you dump everything in it, that’s the point. It wasn’t very classy,

07:22:00:00

there were no comebacks as far as I could see.
How big was the pot or the bowl where it was...?
Oh it was like one of these big copper kettle things you know, we used to have in all the old laundries. And oh no, it was sort of the Army Catering Corps and things, so these

07:22:30:00

big receptacles, that was alright. But then we had to, and we had no transport of course for anything on the famed Kokoda Track, it was just a track. And most of the journey, people on foot could only go in single file on it, you would have no chance whatsoever of taking a vehicle or a horse or a,

07:23:00:00

you could probably take a cat along but otherwise we might... So we cut down on weight, except that it was decreed that we’d wear our tin hats [steel helmets] and not other hats all the way through.
Can you describe the landscape of the Kokoda Track?
Not in polite language but...
Well you don’t need to be polite.

07:23:30:00

I’ve heard it all before Frank so don’t worry about censoring yourself with me.
Well it was, you know, through the heaviest mountains, that’s right, but the natives had made this track, it’s the way they went. And their idea

07:24:00:00

was they wouldn’t go around a hill when they could go over the top of it. And the steepest ones they put logs, timber across and made steps I suppose for they were not wide enough for two people to walk abreast. And that’s alright and then you could, you’d get to the top of that, then the same thing going down the other side. Well that’s when you

07:24:30:00

got what we call ‘laughing knees’, going down, they were step, step, step, and carrying eighty pounds on your back. And this included half a blanket, and half a blanket is no blanket. You know, they cut it that way and say, “Well you can’t wrap yourself in it,” you can’t do anything. And it wasn’t a very pleasant journey, and then...

07:25:00:00

What was your role during this time?
My what?
Your role at this time?
I was second-in-command of C Company, that’s right which I’d been put into in Ceylon. And

07:25:30:00

traditionally, the second-in-command sort of comes at the end of the troops; he’s there in the background to see that everything is right and you don’t lose anything and so on and so forth. And he’s also in the position that if the OC of the company gets shot at the front, the 2IC’s then gotta take command.

07:26:00:00

Well when you take a company of say a hundred and twenty men and spread em out at six or eight feet long and one line route, that means that the second-in-command is about two miles back from the lead. And he’s got no idea what’s going on, he doesn’t get, there was no communication, we didn’t have

07:26:30:00

wireless in those days see, we had nothing except a piece of sig wire[signal cable] which you ran along and had to earth return and carried a great metal box, it wasn’t very successful at all
So how would you communicate with the commanding officer?
How much?
How would you communicate with the commanding officer of the company?

07:27:00:00

Well you’d wait until the day’s march was over and everyone had sort of concentrated past a point and you had to be there for a meal or something, and you’d tap him on the shoulder and say, “What do you think, what went on today?” That was the show. And of course it wasn’t like that all the time, then you got into country, which is a bit more amenable to sticking

07:27:30:00

together. When you got out of the mountain range onto the area after Kokoda towards the sea at Buna you sort of go across then you more or less turn right at the corner of, before going into Kokoda and go way. But Kokoda was just a native village, and nothing

07:28:00:00

much there, we didn’t go into it.
What was your understanding of the reason for C Company being on the Kokoda Trail, why were you there?
What of my understanding of what, the...?
What was your understanding at the time of the reason why

07:28:30:00

C Company was on the Kokoda Trail?
Oh C Company was,
Track sorry?
C Company yes. Well we always called it the track anyway because it wasn’t a trail. But...
Yeah, I slipped up because some people call it ‘trail’ and some people call it ‘track’. Yeah, and I know the Americans call it ‘trail’ yeah.
No well we’ve really explored all this and apparently the

07:29:00:00

reason came out of Melbourne rather than out of America. But anyway...
So why were you there?
Well the simple answer to that was because we were told to be there. You know, you don’t, we didn’t vote on it and...
Well what, I guess a better way to ask that question is what was the purpose of C

07:29:30:00

Company during that period?
To keep chasing the Japs, we’d chased them out of the mountains and along the relatively flat country after that. And they had holed up in a swampy area and they chopped down coconut trees and so on and made great

07:30:00:00

dugout businesses across the track. And we were rapidly running out of men with malaria and all sorts of other troubles. And we were there for weeks and weeks waiting to be relieved by someone and just hanging on and becoming weaker and weaker as we went. And

07:30:30:00

it wasn’t a very pleasant place. I eventually, I don't know how, became adjutant of the battalion, which meant a job on battalion headquarters. But by

07:31:00:00

the time these things had settled down we found that battalion headquarters consisted of me and the Medical Officer. And we sort of shared our meals and did this and that while the others were out up to their necks in water and mud and slush, out in the... And finally we got out of it,

07:31:30:00

we didn’t do much more fighting but I booked five Dakota aircraft [DC3 Douglas Dakota bomber] to carry out the remnants of the battalion. We’d gone in with eight hundred, nine hundred men and there were seventy-five at the finish. And there was quite heavy casualties and also bad sickness, malaria and scrub

07:32:00:00

typhus, the whole lot. And I saw, oh, that’s right we made a landing, take off strip for the Dakota aircraft, which was old DC-3 [troop transport aircraft]
Well before to the evacuation of the remaining troops on the Dakotas, I’d like to go back

07:32:30:00

to the track and talk a bit more about what went on there. Can you talk us through step-by-step what happened to you, as you remember it, on the Kokoda Track, including engagement with the Japanese?
No, well the way we were moving

07:33:00:00

I was down the back, I explained before, I didn’t get tangled up with the Japanese at all in that situation and I was fighting the track more than fighting Japs at that point. And once you got

07:33:30:00

in the hills it rained most of the time, you got no sleep, you got very little food, no food at all. And their experience, they’d drop hard biscuits in tins which just burst open when they hit the

07:34:00:00

ground and all you got is brick dust, ah, biscuit dust from that lot. And they dropped little cases of bully beef and of course they’d spread open and every tin ’d get probably cracks in it and the meat ’d rapidly go bad,

07:34:30:00

or the whole lot that was dropped would land there into a deep gully which couldn’t be found. So provided that you were prepared to go without eating anything, you got on very well on that track. And the fact that you couldn’t take your boots off for months on end, you couldn’t

07:35:00:00

you were never in a safe enough position to strip and...
What would that, I mean these conditions sound...?
Mmm?
These conditions sound horrific, what you’re describing to me in terms of what you went through. And I mean you just mentioned your not being able to take your boots off for two months, I mean...?
Mmm?
What happened to you feet?
Came out like pieces of tripe.

07:35:30:00

You know, and of course that happens quite often in active service that once you’ve got your boots off you’re easy picking for anyone who wants to, you know, you can’t move around, you can’t do this and that. And I determined that I wouldn’t

07:36:00:00

walk back over that track under any circumstances, and a lot had to walk halfway back and they were evacuated and away they’d go and I said, “No.” And finally I had this evacuation idea that I got the five aircraft and I loaded each of them with

07:36:30:00

about fifteen men in it, say, and a great stack of weapons along the middle of the treadway [centre passage in the aircraft]. And I think that we finished up with every Bren gun and every Tommy gun that we’d started out with even though we’re just, we didn’t lose any weapons except old rifles that was all. And as the Adjutant, I kept the paper work

07:37:00:00

right up to date. I had built a little table with a bit of a roof over it out in the jungle there and went into the... See we had to submit cas [casualty] returns any time anyone went and know exactly who was still with us and who wasn’t. And apparently I got a hundred percent marks on that one.
Just getting back to the trail before you

07:37:30:00

evacuated the men on the Dakotas, I mean this sounds like it was an incredibly trying experience for all the men involved, especially considering the losses and the casualties on the Kokoda Trail.
It was.
Can you tell me a bit more about what the mood was like amongst the men at this time?
Well

07:38:00:00

I don't think it mattered so much what their mood was, they were there, see the ones that were out facing the enemy, some were in mud and slush up to their knees and so on and others were going ga-ga [mad], and I think

07:38:30:00

the mood largely was, this is a lovely place to be out of, and that was my feeling. But I wasn’t gonna walk back and ultimately I was last man onto the last aircraft that took off, that came out and so got back to Moresby. Except that we were almost lost, we couldn’t get through the Owen Stanleys [mountain range], because the clouds had come

07:39:00:00

down, we had to circle, go right down to Milne Bay then come up the coast to Port Moresby but that’s where it went. And my Medical Officer made a stinging report about it not being a situation where human beings should be made to stay and work in. Anyway they rapped his wrists

07:39:30:00

rather sharply and told him to mind his own business.
We’ll continue that on the next tape, we’ve just finished one.
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 08

08:00:32:00

So Frank you were telling us in the tape change...?
Yes. Well this particular incident, I’m marching along and it was getting evening and everyone seemed to have disappeared ahead of me and I’m planning along, and then I remember I must have gone to sleep practically standing

08:01:00:00

up. And I remember saying to myself, “No, that’s right, I could sit down on the side of the track” and I’d take my haversack off, my eighty pound weight and put it down and sit there. And then I’d say, “Now when I put this pack on again I’m going to stand up, I’m going to grit my teeth and I’m going to take at least …

08:01:30:00

paces before I sit down again”, which I did, I’d take nine or ten and then I’d sit down again. And I’d do that over and over and over again, I thought, “Now this is silly, where am I getting to”. And by that time I was a long way behind any troops whatsoever, I saw no one at all. Any Jap could have come in and knocked me over without any trouble, if they’d left anyone along the way see. And I

08:02:00:00

reckon that I was darn near death, that I was just about had it, if someone had pushed me, I’d have fallen over and I’d have been done. And then I got another spurt, a spirit from somewhere and apparently then it started to get dark and I was trudging along in this place. Then finally

08:02:30:00

I saw some sort of a light ahead and damn me it was the battalion had arrived there and they had a cup of tea going. And I got into, they say, “Where you been?” “Oh I was held up along the way there.” And, “Cup of tea?” “Yes, I’ll have a cup of tea.” A cup of tea and then another cup of tea. Next morning I was fine and fit again see. But that was a point

08:03:00:00

I was just absolutely done and at the end of my strength, and I’ve never felt closer to death before, but my recovery was so good that, cups of tea will do it.
That’s a remarkable story, thank you, yeah. It’s a real story of survival, yeah. Now you mentioned before that some of

08:03:30:00

the men were going gaga?
In which?
Some of the men were going gaga?
Oh yes.
Like going, I guess, mentally unstable?
Yeah.
What examples can you tell us of that?
I’m getting this second-hand because I wasn’t out among them. I’d necessarily see anyone that was evacuated and came out carrying all his gear and so on.

08:04:00:00

Several officers that came out, they’d been told to walk back as far as they could go and this and that. But I wasn’t out there in the front, quite frankly I didn’t want to go out there, I could see no reason why I should. And as Adjutant I was the tactical brain of the battalion you might say,

08:04:30:00

getting that area. The best tactic I could think was to look after the Medical Officer and then he could look after the men. So that’s that, I...
Were there times when you felt, I mean you just described to us an incredible story of where you basically had to fight yourself to keep going.
Yes, that’s right.
Was there ever a

08:05:00:00

point when you felt mentally unstable during this time?
No, I seemed to know all the time there was a big task ahead of me and I was tackling it as best I was able under the circumstances, that was the

08:05:30:00

best interpretation I could put on that.
What kept you going?
Well it wasn’t food because I hadn’t had any food for a long while. There was no divine intervention that I could see because I don’t believe in divine interventions anyway. And

08:06:00:00

here we are, no.
What about mateship?
Well mateship; you’ve gotta have a mate, you know, this was by myself. And I think

08:06:30:00

somewhere in the back of my mind a little word saying if you’re found laying here on the ground, whether you’re dead or not, you’re going to look a horrible bloody fool and I’m not gonna look a fool under those circumstances. You see, pride, dirty pride.

08:07:00:00

Well it certainly came in handy for you. It can’t be a completely terrible thing if it helped to get you through, yeah.
So there we are.
Now what about, what roles did the natives, the native population play in helping you through Kokoda?

08:07:30:00

Now earlier in the piece we didn’t see any villages that were occupied because they’d been fought over and so on and so forth. I remember once it was before we really got into the climbing,

08:08:00:00

we came on a group of natives and women with grass skirts and so on and we had orders to take off your pips because such and such. And I said, “I’m damned if I’m gonna take off my pips.”

08:08:30:00

I’m here to be someone, you know. And if having pips is going to get a sniper having a go, well let ‘em have a go, I’m not lowering my colours under any circumstances; and that of course, more dirty pride as you go along, but, of mine.

08:09:00:00

But I ...
How much did the natives help the Australian soldiers get across the Kokoda Track?
How much help?
How much help did they give you, the natives?
Well me they didn’t carry me at all, they presumably brought some of the small amount of

08:09:30:00

food that I ate from time to time and then it got a bit different later on. But I saw the teams of Fuzzy Wuzzies [Papuan natives], say half a dozen of ‘em, carrying people on stretchers

08:10:00:00

only in the mountains I think and going up in these steep hills and so on, but a few of those. But there was no-one standing on the side line at drink stations and giving me another drink like this. No, I

08:10:30:00

don’t think anyone was helping me, anywhere.
It sounds like you had a very isolated time on the Kokoda Trail?
Well yes and no, I mean it was isolated on occasions. Other times

08:11:00:00

I had lots to do and I did it. But, I don't...
What were, sorry I interrupted you, were you gonna say something?
It was just to say there was no heroics in it, oh no. I never patted myself on the back and said what a good bloke you are for being here. And

08:11:30:00

consequently, and this where I ruined the rest of my career, this is while we still had a CO, and he said, “There’s a signal in; they want nominations for a school in Brisbane, six week school, at the LHQ [Land Headquarters] School of Military Intelligence.”

08:12:00:00

And he said, “You oughta be in that.” And I said, “My God I’d like to be in it too, I’d get out of the place.” So I put myself down for it and got it. And that way I had to leave the battalion a couple of days before they were due to move out. And they were gonna move

08:12:30:00

out by ship but I was in a hurry to get to Brisbane, I had to be there by the fifth of January or something, to start a course.
Okay well look we might get to that cause I’ve got a few more things I want to ask about Kokoda still, I hope you don’t mind because I’ve found it really interesting what you’ve had to say and your experiences, really interesting to me.

08:13:00:00

I mean you’ve talked a lot about certain experiences that you had on Kokoda, I’m wondering how the whole experience of Kokoda affected you as a person?
Well I can answer it this way. The men in my family,

08:13:30:00

that’s my father and his brothers and his uncles and so on and so forth, the greatest age that any of them was struck was seventy-six. And I’m eighty-eight and a bit now, can I complain that my health was ruined or anything like that?

08:14:00:00

I don't know I might be a throw back to something or other, you see, but I can’t say it ruined my life. I know that when I went into hospital, which was just after this school, that we were put on one side, I must have been down to about seven stone or something like that, I was just skin and bones. And

08:14:30:00

they were giving me injections of liver and goodness knows what else and having a lot of fun in working patterns on my bottom with needles, things like that. But I was pretty low and

08:15:00:00

I don't think it affected me mentally. I can give you accounts of it which make it look as if, but I got over it, and lots of others haven’t got over it, that’s the point. Now whether it’s strong willed or, I don't know,

08:15:30:00

or Kellogg’s Corn Flakes or something, you never know do you, where it goes. But at the moment I think I’m kept going alright by Veteran Affairs and audiologists and no, I haven’t been near my

08:16:00:00

spec [spectacles] woman for a long while but I’m pretty well there. And I’m still getting driving licenses and I can still do cryptic crosswords and a few other things.
Well it sounds like you’re

08:16:30:00

doing alright, yeah. Get, just a few more questions on Kokoda. Now I know that Blamey [General Sir Thomas Blamey, Australian Commander-in-Chief] had an opinion of what went on at Kokoda, can you tell me what your opinion of Blamey’s speech was?
Blamey’s speech?
Yeah, I mean, I’m referring to the speech that Blamey made...
At the end of the...
at the end of Kokoda. Could you

08:17:00:00

talk us through what your opinion is of what he said. What, first of all what you heard and what your opinion of that was?
Well I’ve always been an advocate of Blamey and I remember a speech he made to us, to my battalion personally at the finish of it, and it made your heart glow,

08:17:30:00

so I thought it was good. I know he’s an old villain but I know a lot of old villains who are very nice people to know. You know, there he was but I was very glad when they made him a Field Marshal at the finish. Thought that, well it’s something he deserved because he put up with a hell of a lot

08:18:00:00

and I know a lot of Generals and he’s one of the few that really makes the grade with me.
What did he say that day?
What?
What did he say that day?
What, when he spoke?
Yeah.
I didn’t get a say, I wasn’t asked.
No, what did he, what did his speech

08:18:30:00

entail that day?
Well as far as I can recall and that was in 1942, this is only sixty, seventy years ago; I should be able to remember that. But I think, I had a transcript of it somewhere, I seem to

08:19:00:00

have lost it but I think his main theme was, what good fellas we were and thanks very much for doing a good job boys, and that was that.
Because I had heard that there was one speech that

08:19:30:00

he made where he accused the men who had been on Kokoda of being scared rabbits? Oh is this like the wrong, running like rabbits, was this the same speech or was this a different speech?
It was different people.
Oh okay, right.
I’ve heard so many tales about the

08:20:00:00

militia [Citizens Military Force] boys who were sent over there to stem this thing first. And that some of them did a marvellous job and others apparently scooted [ran] and threw their rifles away, some (UNCLEAR) seen rifles laying beside the track and so on, where things happened. And

08:20:30:00

I don't know enough about it to pass judgement on it. I know there’s plenty of time that I’d have loved to run away but didn’t, you know, that’s your dirty pride again comes into it that you don’t do it. And I think someone said over and over again,

08:21:00:00

“The greatest fear you can have is the fear of being afraid,” or admitting it, I’m not sure the way it is, yes.
Yeah oh thank you for clarifying that, because there was actually of course the speech that Blamey made to another group of men that did involve him being a bit

08:21:30:00

less kind so thank you for clarifying that for us.
Well I saw Americans running away of course but I don't know I regard them as men in this context, whether an American regiment came in to relieve us and just lost their men and lost their way and were pulled out again and weren’t really

08:22:00:00

soldiers. And I saw their commander sitting down sobbing his heart out at the show they’d done. But that’s not my...
Now were you ever at Sanananda?
Sanananda?
Yeah.
I almost got to Sanananda , I’m not sure where Sanananda,

08:22:30:00

I think it might have been the next one along the road, I’m not sure, unless I look at the map. But it was, I think I was within a mile or so of the sea that we were last seen, there was a certain amount going on ahead of me then.
Just

08:23:00:00

before we do leave New Guinea altogether, when in your war time experience was mateship the most evident to you?

08:23:30:00

I think the thing, I was reading somewhere the other day, and I’m sure an account of jungle warfare, advancing in jungle warfare, you’ve always got to have a couple of scouts out in front. And this thing was saying that their actual

08:24:00:00

experience was that they’d call for volunteers to be scouts and there’d always be volunteers. And mostly it was two mates who would volunteer together to be in this,

08:24:30:00

in this thing. And that if one was knocked, the other one would move into that position straight away, and that was one definition of mateship.
What about for you personally? What about for you personally, what...?
Well I never worried about words.

08:25:00:00

I think a lot’s been made of different interpretations of mateship of course and I suppose it really gets down to, are you prepared to lay down your life to

08:25:30:00

assist a mate or maybe take his place where something’s gonna be completely dangerous to him. Somewhere, the most precious thing any of us has got to lose is our life, and if you could put that on the line for someone else, well you’d be a good mate.

08:26:00:00

Right? Don’t quote me.
I just got tingles, I hadn’t actually ever heard mateship described like that before.
Yes, I think it must involve the giving of life I think,

08:26:30:00

and there are various lower degrees of it, but in the ultimate, if you were to say what is the ultimate. Yeah.
Thanks for that, yeah. So, now we can go to the Dakotas, which we’ve been trying to get on for quite a while. But you mentioned that you were enrolled, you decided to

08:27:00:00

do the intelligence school in Brisbane, what, if you could just do a quick summary of how you got from New Guinea to the intelligence school?
How I was when I...?
How you got, the journey there, just an overview because we are actually running out of time and...?
Well the journey there; let me say I started at Jackson airport in

08:27:30:00

Port Moresby, I waited around, I remember I was there on Christmas Day, (UNCLEAR). And Christmas dinner was, I somehow or other got a comfort fund with Christmas pudding and I sat down and ate it myself in the dust and dirt of the place. Then I was given a tip to see

08:28:00:00

a certain bloke at headquarters there, something about my plane trip or something like that, I’m not sure what it was. But anyway I had to trudge through the dirt for a mile or so to the headquarters and dirty, filthy place, dusty and dirty and hot. And ultimately I got the plane seat,

08:28:30:00

and I took off from there, flew to, whether it was to Cairns or Townsville, I’ve never been sure what it was, but one of those places. And that was supposed to be the end of my journey. But I had another officer with me from somewhere else who was going for some reason and mated up with him. This was a partial

08:29:00:00

mateship, yes. And he said, “Look at the brigadier there, he’s got the plane all to himself.” I said, “Oh, where you going?” He said, “Brisbane.” I said, “Well so am I.” So I said, “Just a second.” So I bowl over to put on my most hangdog Kokoda Track look, staggered

08:29:30:00

along and said, “Sir, you got a spare seat for a couple of old diggers,” more or less. And, “Oh,” he said, I forget who it was now but he was Chief Engineer I think, he said, “Yes.” “Okay,” I said, “come on.” So we got on board and we landed in Brisbane earlier than we’d thought, otherwise we’d had to do the train trip for about three days or something

08:30:00:00

down to Brisbane. Well that was easy, but I don't know.
So what was involved in the course, the intelligence course?
Well the chief instructor was

08:30:30:00

a brother-in-law I think of one of the officers with me in the desert, John McDonald, that’s right they were brothers-in-law. And he had a pretty fair idea of the whole show and they made it tough. And of course I was

08:31:00:00

labelled that I’d just come out of the Kokoda Track and they didn’t know that I was sort of half dead at that stage. But he was very (UNCLEAR), we had one business of a sea landing where we, they brought in landing craft. And we

08:31:30:00

dropped into the sea, or you know, in water up to the chest or something and staggered ashore carrying loads and goodness knows what. This was just to illustrate some of the difficulties that troops ’d be in.
Frank, I’ll just get you to stop squeaking your shoes, sorry, please continue.
Yeah. Yes. And oh there was a lot more

08:32:00:00

and it was, it gave me a pretty fair idea of what Military Intelligence meant. And I presume, I think I was top of the class, there at the finish. I didn’t get my photo taken with the whole thing because my wife had come up to Brisbane and

08:32:30:00

we were staying in a place and I thought this was a day off and I took the day off. And they said, “You didn’t get your photo taken.” I said, “Oh well that’s too bad and so on, I got a photo of everyone else there and I, which they were, what it was. But I was deflated a bit because I went into hospital for quite a while after that

08:33:00:00

because I was so low, that was, and I went from Brisbane to Sydney on the hospital ship and out to Concord [Repatriation Hospital], there for a while. Then I had leave after that and we took a flat over in Manly for a while right opposite the beach there after things.
When you say low, what do you mean by

08:33:30:00

being low?
Well low in health, low in spirit I suppose as you go. But although I wasn’t too bad, I had improved a little and then somehow or other, I got back to the battalion which was gone up to the tableland

08:34:00:00

above Cairns [Atherton Tableland] and they stayed there for about a year or so I think. Anyway I got there and straight away I walked into the job of company commander in C Company and I threw my weight around a little bit. And then of course I was there about a week or so, another signal comes in that I’m appointed as an instructor

08:34:30:00

at a staff school, First Australian Army Staff School, Junior Staff School in Brisbane. I thought well, what’s this got to do with military intelligence, you know, I thought. Anyway I did that and then my brigadier friend, Brigadier Stevenson who used to be my CO,

08:35:00:00

and then he was over at Merauke, he got me a job as Brigade Major there. But then they discovered that I had malaria and that was no good. Then someone got me a job in Darwin, which they wouldn’t let me go to because of malaria. And I’m getting a bit fed up with people helping me at this stage. And then the next thing, oh no, this was after they got me a job in Thursday Island. I went to Thursday Island,

08:35:30:00

nearly killed me, the boredom and the trouble there I was Staff Captain A [Personnel Staff Officer]. And I thought, “What’s Staff Captain A got to do with intelligence.” And then ultimately someone got the ear of the General in charge of intelligence, and he got me shipped off to Land Headquarters in Melbourne.

08:36:00:00

Then I became a general officer [staff officer], what, oh goodness knows, Intelligence Officer Grade something or other [Two or Three], and under a stupid old lieutenant colonel from the First War who didn’t know anything about intelligence, and reckoned that anyone with an Africa Star [campaign medal] on his chest was no good at all.

08:36:30:00

They gave me a few funny jobs and finally I got myself transferred to operations so I became a General Staff Officer Grade Three, Operations. And in the battle room at Land Headquarters, great maps and we did the maps of Europe and so on. We did the battle

08:37:00:00

in Europe and was very interesting. I used to occasionally do the briefing of General Blamey and his off-shoot General Northcott I think [Major-General Sir John Northcott], each week as to what was going on in the battle fronts and so on and so forth, I did that alright. Then someone got the bright idea of dropping an atom bomb on what’s-a-name. I said, “I have

08:37:30:00

had it.”
What was that you said?
“I’m a soldier no more.”
Sorry, what was that you said?
“I’ve had it.” And, so, I had plenty of points to get out with and I got it accelerated and before long I was on the train back to Sydney to be officially

08:38:00:00

put off into the Reserve of Officers. And I got back to Canberra and found that I had a job waiting in Treasury for me and I went into Treasury and I stayed there for twenty years.
Just getting back to the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, when that happened, what went through your mind?

08:38:30:00

Well number one, I had not the slightest idea what an atom bomb was at that stage, a lot of engineering work and so on and so forth but I hadn’t got round to that one. And but I knew and from the earth proportion photos that I

08:39:00:00

saw, well it did a lot of damage, it’s going to end this war and they wont need me anymore so let me get out. I wasn’t scared of atom bombs, put it that way. I thought this is my chance to end this episode in my life and I did.
We’ll stop there.
Interviewee: Francis Stanton Archive ID 0822 Tape 09

09:00:33:00

Okay, Frank could you tell us what happened to you when the war ended, I mean the day that the war ended?
What date was that?
That was 1945,

09:01:00:00

September ‘45.
This?
September ‘45.
September ‘45. Oh that’s when the war ended, yes.
What do you recall of that event?
Well I’d have been in Melbourne,

09:01:30:00

Now, this is war in Europe you’re talking about.
The whole war, the Japanese War yeah.
Yeah. But the war in Europe was gone earlier hadn’t it?
Yes.
That’s right yes. Yes. Well it wasn’t

09:02:00:00

very long after the atom bomb was it?
No. Was there, what celebrations took place?
No, I didn’t see any celebrations that I remember. I’d seen pictures of what happened in Sydney, and dancing people and all the rest of it. But whether Melbourne was too staid for that I’m not sure.

09:02:30:00

But I can’t sort of put a thought on what might have happened. I think my automatic thought was that the atom bomb had stopped the war, you know and

09:03:00:00

which it really did, that’s what brought it. There weren’t many people killed in action after that or anything and that I’d have thought it was just another event or, related to the bomb.

09:03:30:00

Oh no very (UNCLEAR), I haven’t got any flags to wave around and I no, I don't know.
Well not everyone did, you know, a lot of people didn’t feel like celebrating.
Yeah.
It was a mixture of feelings for a lot of people. But you, when you, when we first started the interview, you gave a marvellous

09:04:00:00

description of your post-war life and what you did there. But because we are coming to the end of the interview I particularly wanted to ask you about your experience where you were a guest at the landing not on the moon but you were a guest when man first walked, can you talk us through that experience and how you came to be there?
Yes.

09:04:30:00

With a little bit of luck I could show you a piece of metal from the moon, I got it, oh it’s somewhere around, it’s in a little doover [thing]. But I was Assistant General Manager Operations at OTC, which I had all the

09:05:00:00

qualified engineers under me and most of the work, a big percentage of the whole crowd. And I’d had quite a lot to do with the American NASA, National Aeronautic Space Administration. And I knew them well and I’d met them in Washington, seen them. They’d be in touch with

09:05:30:00

me if they wanted anything done. And of course we had a big role to play in that landing on the moon through our little earth station out in Geraldton and the oh the big one was up at Moree later on. And anyway I had an official invitation to go to the

09:06:00:00

launch, that’s right, and I went. But what happened of course, we lined up at the

09:06:30:00

base and we were kept about three and a half miles away from the actual conglomeration of vehicles and so on which went up in the air. And oh there were, I got some film of it somewhere but there

09:07:00:00

was mobs of French girls came over in planes from Paris and all sort of people there, and the old Vice President, who was the Vice President then? Oh, I can’t think, America, not Johnson was it, no, a funny fellow. Anyway

09:07:30:00

we had a certain amount of the propaganda beforehand and then you say, “Watch out boys,” and so the noise starts. And you get the noise like a thousand motorbike engines starting off and then suddenly with all the exhaust

09:08:00:00

coming out underneath the actual rocket. And then of course this was before the space shuttle wasn’t it, yes, that’s right, before the space shuttle. We were in, just in this little doover at the top of the rocket.

09:08:30:00

And then they said, “We’ve got lift off, lift off.” And you see the thing gradually go up and gradually go up. I’ve got a little eight mil [8 millimetre lens] camera on it, I was taking that, I was alright. Anyway it went further and further up, and of course I’m getting over this way, and it seemed to me at that stage I’m looking at it and looking at it and going back and further back. I said, “God it’s still directly overhead.” I thought it was straight overhead and going to drop on me. See, it

09:09:00:00

was some aberration. Anyway off it went into the thing and we then all turned around and went home. And I went home via oh, various southern states, I did a rather chequered thing across to Los Angeles. And

09:09:30:00

caught I think a Qantas plane home from there. And got home and I think that was the time that I got home in pouring rain; I lived at Killara then and there was about two feet of water coming down my driveway so I stayed in the car and the wife came out to open the gates. Anyway

09:10:00:00

that might have been another occasion but I’m not sure of that now.
Well thanks for telling us that story, that’s a wonderful thing to have been part of, it’s really interesting to hear that.
Yes and of course subsequently they made this bits of metal into twenty cent piece size and sent it

09:10:30:00

to me and I’ve got it. I cleaned it up every now and then and produced a little booklet. And it, what happens, I keep it, try and keep it separate from some things, I don't know whether I’ve packed it up or not. It might be, might be in my drawer inside, I’ll show it to you.
Now since World War II how important has it been for

09:11:00:00

you to stay in contact with your mates from the war?
Right. Well until, what was the end of ‘65, that I left Canberra. Before that I’d occasionally them and I’d joined up their

09:11:30:00

association and I got a copy of their periodical thing. Then I came to Sydney and I started attending their meetings and I remember ex-CO Ian Hutchison, he was living

09:12:00:00

on the North Shore too. And he rang me one day and said, “Well why don’t you join up with an association better and just keep an eye and see these boys don’t do stupid things.” And I said, “Alright, I’ll do that.” So for ever since I’ve sort of been a Vice President and play around and I don’t open my mouth very wide and I see they’re getting along.

09:12:30:00

And I don't think I’ve blotted my copy book at all, I’ve retained a modicum of acceptability in the place. It used to be, “What are the bloody officers going to do in here?” you know, that sort of thing. I’ve got over that one

09:13:00:00

ultimately. And...
And sorry, I missed the, what was the name of the group?
Oh this is the 2/3rd Australian Infantry Battalion Association and, against my better judgement and words, some time ago they formed it into an association of all Australian

09:13:30:00

Third Infantry Battalions, which brought in the 3 RAR [Royal Australian Regiment] the permanent blokes. And we’ve got about, oh, twenty thousand dollars or something in kitty and obviously these others have got their eyes on getting all that money, and I’ve got a group of people who are determined they’re not going to have it. And the main ones in the group

09:14:00:00

are January 10th 1940 sailors on the Orcades, about three or four blokes. And we’re keeping the show running at the moment as far as I can see. I seem to be the sort of senior

09:14:30:00

officer in the whole show, cause I’ve got a lieutenant colonel from post war and I’ve got a lot of influence. And the President, who’s been president for about thirty years, I’ve got him in one of those photos there, he joined me as a lad of about sixteen outside Tobruk. So I’ve known him for a long

09:15:00:00

time and he’s cracking up a bit now but he’s not, and there’s a few others. And we’ve got a few ninety-year olds and so on. And we have a meeting on the first Friday each month, except January I think.
How important is Anzac Day to you?

09:15:30:00

Well I’ve attended every one since I came to Sydney except once it was in London. I was in London and did the one there at the Cenotaph at Westminster Abbey. And I’ve marched every year here, including this last one, I did it on my ear, it was no trouble whatsoever

09:16:00:00

And I got photos there of the full march on tape but I’m looking more ancient each time.
How important is it for you to march on Anzac Day?

09:16:30:00

Well, mateship, I think. No it’s the other blokes and there’s some there I only see them on Anzac Day, I never see them during the year. But they know I’m alive and I know they’re alive. And see

09:17:00:00

I was in every company except B Company in the 2/3rd. I started in A Company, I went to Don Company, I went to C Company, I went to Headquarter Company and Battalion Headquarters you know, so I’m known pretty well by most of the men. I’ve produced an intelligible nominal roll of the three thousand

09:17:30:00

two hundred something people who’ve been through this battalion. And it gets ‘em in a little every now and then but we know pretty well who’s in it. And they get a newsletter three, four times a year and everyone loves it. And there’s been moves

09:18:00:00

to you know, stop it and let some of the other battalion association have it, we’ve stopped that and that keeps going. I’ve got another scheme (UNCLEAR) of sticking the whole thing under the care of trustees ultimately and which I’m quite prepared to be one and so on. And this is when ninety’s still just coming along. It’s like the

09:18:30:00

moon’s started to rise but I can’t be bothered.
Well Frank...
But it’s a good thing, I’m not, some of ‘em, I mean this Bill Jenkins, he’s become a professional ex-serviceman see, and he’s been in everything. He ran the Dawn Service at the Cenotaph here for years and years, and he’s done other things, he’s a member of

09:19:00:00

various associations and he’s just worn himself out in the process, so.
Well Frank we’re probably coming to the end of the interview but before we do finish I’m wondering if there’s anything else that you want to say that you haven’t said yet?
Oh.

09:19:30:00

Well, I could, put it this way, I’ve got you know, two fists and so on and so forth

09:20:00:00

and once in my life have I put my hands up to fight someone. And that was in about fifth or sixth class at primary school. And I was a new kid and I was taken down the park to fight the best fighter in the school, and he made my nose bloody and I said, “This is no good to me.” I gave

09:20:30:00

it up. I’ve never in violence or otherwise hit anyone and I don't think anyone in violence has hit me in the time. So to that extent, I’m not warlike. I’m not in favour of war and I never was,

09:21:00:00

but at the same time I can see that man being what he is, there’s always gonna be some sort of war. There’s gotta be people in it, and that’s about it. Now I hope it won’t be me that’s all. I think I’ve just about escaped most of it. That enough?
That’s a really wonderful place to finish I think.
Yeah, alright.

09:21:30:00

So Frank, on behalf of Graham [interviewer] and myself and the war archive we’d like to thank you very much for a really wonderful interview today.
Well thank you very much for being along, I was a bit, I wasn’t reluctant on this, I was, didn’t quite know how you would proceed but I couldn’t think of a better way. Right.
Well thank you, it’s been a real pleasure, thank you.

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