Douglas Maclean
Archive number: 1942
Preferred name: Doug
Date interviewed: 28 April, 2004

Served with:

2/15th Battalion

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Douglas Maclean 1942

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Transcript

Tape 01

01:00:40:00

Doug, can you give me a summary of your life please?
Well I was born on the 14th October 1917 in St Margaret’s Hospital in Cairns and I lived all of my youth in a little place called Babinda, which is about forty miles south of Cairns. It’s a sugar growing area and

01:01:00:00

of course those were the Depression years when I was growing up and things were pretty tough. And everybody was on part-time work but I had a pretty happy childhood. My Mum and Dad were very good. I was one of five and the middle boy and I had quite an enjoyable life and we never sort of realised we were poor, which we undoubtedly were poor – there’s no doubt in the world we were poor. But when the war came,

01:01:30:00

it went along. I worked in the sugar industry around about on farms and in the mill and I picked tobacco up in the Meribah area and I picked cotton down in the Rockhampton area. All hard ways of working. And when the war came, I’d always been very quiet and been very interested in things that were happening throughout the world and I really thought I was going to save it

01:02:00:00

and I went away to a war. Joined on the 4th June 1940. Went to Brisbane. A country boy in a big city. I’d never been south of Rocky [Rockhampton] before. And we went to Darwin almost immediately. On the 1st July we went to Darwin and I don’t know who we were supposed to fight because I was in the army three weeks and had been through a rookie course and that’s all. But we spent four months in Darwin. Went up on a ship called the Zealandia, which was the first ship I

01:02:30:00

ever travelled, travelled in. Came back in the Zealandia in October. Then I had a very great birthday party in Darwin that’s the talk of the battalion. And then I finally went to the Middle East of all days to leave Brisbane Christmas Day 1940. Dehydrated stew for dinner, at least I think it was that – it was pretty crook I know that. And then

01:03:00:00

we caught the train in Brisbane and the women had put a meal on everybody’s seat and I thought it was remarkable and that they’d done it. And I had no-one to see me off because I’d come from Cairns. We joined up. I went overseas on the Queen Mary. We were in Palestine in Gaza Ridge right where all the blues and the arguments were. And we were there about a month. And we were up in the desert, almost completely

01:03:30:00

trained I’d say. And we had to meet the Germans. The 6th Division had gone through and hadn’t met the Germans and we went through and met them, and got the ears belted off us I might say. And then we made a very quick return to Tobruk wherein our colonel and our 2IC [second in command], our padre and one hundred and seventy others all got caught, all killed. We got back there and of course we got a new colonel and we

01:04:00:00

were fixed up with reinforcements. We held them back for some seven months. I was there for six and a half of them but for the last four or five weeks I left because I had jaundice, which was quite common within the place. We came back, camped at Palestine. Well I came to the hospital in Cairo, no in Alexandria rather, back into Palestine and then up to Syria. It was peacetime in

01:04:30:00

Syria. It had been won by the 7th Division and we stopped there for a little while and then we came back to El Alamein. We had a good time in Syria, I quite enjoyed it – very pretty place. And then we went to El Alamein which was very uncomfortable as was Tobruk of course. Our opposition were unfriendly but we did win it and it was so different at El Alamein because

01:05:00:00

in Tobruk we’d had no air force, we had nothing. In El Alamein we had everything. But we came back after El Alamein when we came back to Australia we had leave then back in the army went up to New Guinea. We went to Milne Bay which was a peace time place and then we went to, we took, we took Lae, then Finschhafen and

01:05:30:00

after that about five, five or six months a very, very uncomfortable time – the conditions were worse than the fighting I suppose. And then we came back to Australia and camped up at Ravenshoe. And to begin with we’d been camped at Kaira and then at Ravenshoe which made us all unhappy because we couldn’t get leave and I was only a hundred miles from home. And then we went up to Borneo. And I’ve always

01:06:00:00

made – I got chipped the other day for saying this, that I thought Borneo was a very easy campaign and that things went just as they’d planned and I was told that I ought to remember that two men, which wasn’t many out of nine hundred but still it was two and for them it was very important. And then I came home and I was discharged and from then on it was civilian

01:06:30:00

life.
And can you tell me about your children and marriages?
My children? Well I was married in 1949, forty-nine yes to Gwen Anderson, a lovely girl. This is the one place I will get emotional about. She was, and she was a lovely girl and we had three children, John he now works in Woolworths, quite high up,

01:07:00:00

he’s a Distribution Manager for Queensland and he drives up to see me with a car about fourteen feet long and then there was two girls. And John I might say was a terrible boy at school, he was that lazy and then he went to Woolworths and did everything right. Apparently he never, he’s never put a foot wrong. Then there was two girls, there was Alison and she now lives in Sydney,

01:07:30:00

she worked in the Wales Bank as it was known in those days and she did well and she went for a trip to Europe and a trip, oh she did tripping around all the time and she was a very happy young kid. And she went to Europe and met a fellow in Europe and he was an Australian luckily so they came home, they got married – dates and me are not the best but

01:08:00:00

it would been I don’t know about nineteen, in the early seventies. And she now lives in Sydney. Two photos of them up there, two children a boy of twenty-one and a girl who is nineteen. I forgot to tell you John he has two boys, he’s about twenty-seven or twenty-eight, the worry of his grandmother’s heart. He doesn’t look like

01:08:30:00

getting married. He’s an accountant at the TAB [Totalisator Agency Board]. And the other boy he started yesterday as a matter of fact, he’d been in Western Australia, he manages Crazy Clarks in Longreach of all places. And he has our first great grandchild that fellow, who’s about twelve months old. And then Jennifer was the baby. She married a mechanic in Cairns.

01:09:00:00

Okay, your youngest daughter?
Ah yeah the youngest girl, Jenny, she lives in Cairns and she’s married to John. She’s different from the others, she’s had a ball of life. She tells father off in great style and she and I are the greatest of friends and she’s rather younger. She was the surprise of the family I suppose and she

01:09:30:00

told me, after her mother had died which was in 1972, she and I are having breakfast one morning before I went to work and she went to school and she said, “You know Dad I must have been a little mistake you know,” she said. And I said, “What did you say?” And she said, “I must have been a little mistake.” And of course I denied it and she disbelieved me and she is now in Cairns and he has his own business and he’s doing quite well I think and they’ve got a beautiful

01:10:00:00

home and two lovely kids, a little girl – She’s not so little either, she’s about eleven I think and the boy who’s six. Who’s mad crazy, he rides a motorbike, a proper motorbike with a motor in it and goes around – they’ve got an acreage – he goes around and around and around and around the yard. And well that’s about all the children. And they’re all doing particularly well I think because we’ve got no worry about any of them financially they could buy

01:10:30:00

and sell us the lot of them because I must admit that we’re hardly what we could call rich.
And so you remarried?
Married? I married Gwen in 1972. We lived for a short time in Velandra, I worked in the post office and – but then I went and worked in the brewery and we built a house in Cairns, rather larger than this I might say and we lived there

01:11:00:00

for many, many years. And I worked in the local brewery. And while I was there I had a very bad accident and I smash one of my legs up. I was selement [?UNCLEAR] and from then on I went in the office and I was in charge of the dispatch office when I left and was doing quite, quite well and was quite happy in the job but I had the feeling, I still was the man who always felt he could do something

01:11:30:00

in this world which unfortunately is wrong, I never have I suppose. And I was district secretary of the RSL [Returned and Services League] which was a pretty big job, it took about twenty hours a week for my wife and I. I was sixty-three I think and I decided I’d give the last two, couple of years of my life to the RSL properly and I went through as I said to seventy-three. And – I’m sorry

01:12:00:00

until I was seventy-three, that’s right. And it was quite a happy occasion. We travelled a lot. The district branch of the RSL came from Thursday Island, the Cardwell, that’s if you know North Queensland?
I know bits of it yeah, yeah.
And then right out to Normanton and Bourke Town and those places, and I travelled all over it. And Marge and I were very, we were very happy. I mean I suppose we had our tiffs the same as everybody else did

01:12:30:00

but we were particularly happy and she was a lovely girl and we just thought the two boys, the boy was working at Woolworths. He was in all of the unfortunate places he was in Gove when his mother died. And the girl had just started, Alison had just started at the bank. And it’s a very sad period. One night I was talking on the telephone and she was a bad asthmatic my wife, and I was talking on the

01:13:00:00

telephone to the treasurer and she was in the bedroom. We’d washed up and the kids had gone out. John I don’t know where he was and Alison was at some church group and all of sudden she came out and she said, “I’m not well, you’ll have to get the ambulance.” And I got the ambulance and when she went to walk out she couldn’t walk out, we had to carry her. She never reached the hospital.

01:13:30:00

Oh that must have been very hard.
And that was in 1972. John came down from Gove of course. His uncle was manager for [UNCLEAR] in Cairns and I said fix it up for John. And a very big funeral in Cairns because she was particularly well known. Being district secretary she was, meant she was my typist and she did all the work and she knew as much about the RSL

01:14:00:00

as I did. She served in the air force herself. And they came from all, all over North Queensland for it. And then it was back to home and to work in the brewery and to a pretty rough time bringing up – and I kept on being district secretary. I must have been crazy I think but I kept on and I got other people – and they gave me a travelling allowance of twenty –

01:14:30:00

of five, five pounds a week it was to begin with and it rose to twenty-five dollars and I gave it all to a typist who did my typing and what not and I worked – I still made my trip to Brisbane and we were very, very busy. I worked every night I think and just Jenny and I were home because Alison she went to England and she married Darrell and went to live in Sydney. And I was with Jenny, Jenny and I for six,

01:15:00:00

six years we were by ourselves. And in my trips to Brisbane I used to meet Marge and she was in the office at headquarters in Anzac [Australian and New Zealand Army Corps] Square there. And we got married and we’ve done very, very well. We’re very happy and we get on well. She’s got two boys. Are you a Queenslander at all? Well do you follow sport? Do you know Bernie

01:15:30:00

Pramberg? He writes now. He used to write about football, he writes all about golf now. He used to be a football referee for The Courier Mail. He’s just back from America as a matter of fact. And six foot four of him. And I promised I’d look after his mother and which I’ve done pretty well I think. And Peter, who you’d never mistake, you’d never take for his brother. He always, if he has a drink or two, he always says it was a mixed up baby,

01:16:00:00

baby case because his brother’s six foot four and he’s five foot ten. But a very nice bloke. And he’s different from most men. He has a daughter who is thirty-three. He divorced many years ago before I knew him. He married and again and they’ve been married sixteen or seventeen years. No children, trying all the time. Went on IVF [in vitro fertilisation program], had the baby. The most beautiful little, she is, honestly she’s the most beautiful girl I think I’ve ever seen. She’s two and a

01:16:30:00

half. Always says when her big sister comes, comes to see her who has a business in the valley, “Here’s my sister,” she says and she’s two and a half and her sister’s thirty-three. And then she um, she – and she’s a lovely girl and calls me Pa and she and I get on well.
So I want to take you back to your childhood years. Can you tell me a little bit more about where you grew up?
Well Pawngilly was really,

01:17:00:00

which was south of Babinda about six miles. It was farming area. And really in a lot of ways it was an unfortunate time. The farmers were all quite well off, they were quite well off. And for the people who worked, it was a very wet area. I don’t know whether you know but in North Queensland it has been the boast of being the wettest place in Australia. And if it was wet, if you were working on a farm well you just couldn’t work. And it was broken work. And when the season came, sugar’s a

01:17:30:00

queer crop because after about – the crushing season goes from June, or used to go, to December and when the cane grew up they’d return it and when it grew up it was um, it was too high to work. You know you couldn’t get through it, it was about five feet high, and so there was nothing. And that’s when I went picking cotton and picking tobacco and ah

01:18:00:00

cotton, picking cotton’s the worse the job there is Queensland. I’m glad they’ve got a machine doing it now. I went through there some years ago and I think I saw more cotton sticking on the fence around Jambin than I ever picked because they do it all by machine now. We worked hard. And again I see no reason why we weren’t unhappy but none of us were, we were a pretty happy family. Mum was very

01:18:30:00

good. And Dad worked. He had nearly a full time job on a farm because they always gave him something because he was older. But there was little there. I went to a school, a little place called Miriwinni and which is quite fair. If you know, I don’t know if you’ve heard of him Brad Bevan at all. He’s ah, he was world champion at ah, at ah, his running, where they run and bike ride and do the lot. We used to walk and see him on TV. I knew

01:19:00:00

his father or his grandfather rather. And that’s the unfortunate part, every time they’d talk about something I knew their father or I knew their grandfather. And I never knew him but he’s ah, he was quite famous. But it was a good place. We didn’t do much. There were plenty of creeks around naturally and we could all swim like fish the lot of us. And that was our main enjoyment. We had tin canoes and we used to go wherever there was um,

01:19:30:00

well you know whenever there was rain. It used to flood very, very badly and we used to go all over the place in these tin canoes. And how my mother never had a fit I don’t know. I’d die if my kids had done what we did but she never seemed to worry. And she knew we could swim, I suppose, and that’s all the trouble was.
Was it difficult for the family in the Depression?
Oh – well we’ll say this, it was not easy,

01:20:00:00

no it must have been difficult but I never realised just how difficult it must have been for my mother and father and it must have been difficult. Because I don’t know if you’re – wages in those days were about five pounds a week, if you had full time and he probably with his broken time he might have earned four pounds a week. And you bring up five children on that sort of money – we had our own home and it was –

01:20:30:00

And I guess. Strangely I look back and say and wonder why we weren’t unhappy but we weren’t, we were a happy family and that’s all I can see and I think that stood me in pretty good stead. Although I was the troublesome boy of the family, I was the naughty boy and there’s no doubt about it. I read my history and what I did. I remember my mother would say it was teatime and there was a big mango tree in the backyard and I’d crawl up there and say I don’t want any tea.

01:21:00:00

And I’d be up that tree and I’d be starving to death actually but I would not come down and I’d go to bed without any tea because I wouldn’t go down because I knew it annoyed everybody and I was a bad boy and my mother said, I was just looking at that book that I’d written or started to write and I said that she said you weren’t, sometimes you weren’t a very nice little boy and she was a very gentle soul and that was her way of saying a real little bugger.

01:21:30:00

And did you have brothers and sisters?
Yeah I had brothers and sisters. Oh yes I had an older sister Nessie, a brother Jim, who was older too, he joined the air force. And two young sisters. And there’s only myself and the two young sisters alive now. But as I said we had a happy life. Nessie went away, she went working as a governess working out

01:22:00:00

in the station properties of the west. And Jim was lucky he got an apprenticeship and ended up as an electrician, no as a fitter and turner rather, and he did well and moved, he moved to Sydney eventually and married. I saw his wife only a few weeks ago. I was in Sydney and I saw her. She’s very frail now but she’s very nice and they have a home that’s worth a fortune and she defies the family and won’t go into

01:22:30:00

a hospice. She just says I’m right where I am. Well they’ll come in one day and find her gone, that’s what will happen to her. And Nessie, poor Nessie she died and left a son who’s named after me, he was born just after the war was over and I was the hero of the family because I’d been away and done everything. My brother was in the air force and stayed in Australia and had done nothing, as he always

01:23:00:00

says. And I was the only one. And Nessie’s husband had been away too but they’re all dead, the older ones. I’m the head of the family I suppose now, I’m the oldest and – but it was good. I hated school and I did badly at school there’s no good saying I did well, it wouldn’t be truthful if I said I did well.
What are your memories of school?
Of school? Well I had a lot of good friends and – it’s an unfortunate thing when

01:23:30:00

you reach the aged of eighty-six as I have, you find that nearly all your friends have gone. But I enjoyed school I suppose. I was quite a good sportsman. I wasn’t a bad footballer and I was quite good at cricket. Well I wasn’t real good in cricket but I enjoyed it. And the only unfortunate thing at school, I had a slight stammer as you’ve probably noticed –
I hadn’t noticed.
Well I have one and it will come out on the machine I’m sure.

01:24:00:00

And we had a school teacher, who I’ve always said to this day was a nasty piece of work. He taunted me with it, the fact that I stuttered and I never ever to this day I’ve never forgiven him for it. And I had him for the whole time I was at school. And they had a big send off to him – Most people liked him, I must admit, and I was probably a troublesome boy too that didn’t make him like me. But I never forgave him because they had this big send off for

01:24:30:00

him and every school kid there, except me, I just said I will not go, I said I don’t like the man and I’m not going to go and get up on my feet and say I liked him because I didn’t. And that’s the story and he of course is dead, Louis Beaton Sanctious Reed, I’ll always remember his name, but the women teachers we had were nice. There was Josie Hall my first teacher when I first went to school and she was there, she was lovely. And I loved her too, I really loved

01:25:00:00

her and she was good. And we had numerous other teachers but always standing over me was Louis Beaton and I didn’t like it. I left school at fourteen after scholarship and worked in the farms and roundabout and I went – Is this all right?
It’s great, yeah it’s really great Doug.
And I went out just working on the farms roundabout. It’s amazing when I look back

01:25:30:00

what I did do for twelve months. I sold vegetables around the place with a horse and cart. I mean you did any, anything to eat in those days. By this time it was, it would have been thirty-six I suppose and things were hard. Then I went out west on station properties. I went worked right out near Boulia of all places and it was –
What was Boulia like in those days?
Well look I was within fifty miles of Boulia and I never went into it and I don’t think I missed very much. It’s a terrible

01:26:00:00

place from what you can read. There’s great squabbles with these two native clans there and they fight like Kilkenny cats and anybody else that gets in the road gets hurt sort of business. But no I never went into Boulia but I went into Cloncurry a few times and Winton but never to Boulia. But station work was pretty miserable, it wasn’t good. I saw nobody, did nothing. I came home when I was about, oh I suppose

01:26:30:00

about nineteen or twenty then. Worked on the farms again. And then when the war started – I always followed the war and my mother knew, she knew in her heart that I would go, she knew that. And she was very worried about it because she had a brother who was killed in the First World War. And very sad for her because he was her favourite brother and they never found his body, a shell came and that was the end of it and I had

01:27:00:00

his photo out the other night. And ah, and I used to talk about the war and I could discuss it with anybody and I was a young man, I was only twenty, twenty-one but I discussed the war and – but I didn’t want to go, I thought oh they don’t – the 6th Division went to the Middle East and didn’t look like doing anything. And then when it blew up in June 1940, when it blew up. And on the 4th June I went to Cairns and joined the army.
When you said you

01:27:30:00

talked about it to people who did you talk to about it?
I beg your pardon?
You said you talked to lots of people about the war, who?
Oh yes I did. Oh well there was a big farming area. I talked to Dad. Dad was very interested in that sort of thing. He didn’t go to the war but he was very interested in it. And ah, oh well there were farmers, there was –
Why didn’t your father go to the war?
Well he had three children, including me and I think that’s probably what stopped him. He had two brothers that both went

01:28:00:00

and Mum had two brothers both went. And Dad was the only member of the family that stayed and I think that the – well I never asked him really but I think that’s probably the reason. Because I imagine if you went in the army on five shillings a day and trying to keep your, your wife at home with three kids it would have been a miserable existence for her. Of course it

01:28:30:00

was a safe one for him too because he wasn’t being killed. But no he never went but he was always interested in world affairs and there were a few farmers. Now this is my greatest trouble I forget names now. It was um, old Bob Battle, who lived to be a hundred and one I might say. I went to see him last time I was in Cairns. No not the last time the time before I was in Cairns

01:29:00:00

and he was still quite perky even then. Deaf as a post and talked at the top of his voice and, “I’m a hundred and one now you know” he’d say. And they even wrote him and let him off paying anymore tax. He was quite, he had a farm, he was quite a wealthy man. But he’d tell you this at the top of his voice and everybody else in the ward would know. He was bedridden. And apparently quite happy too. But I used to talk to Bob because he always followed the war. And ah, and there was –

01:29:30:00

old man – Oh. And now, and now I’ve forgotten him. Wakeham. I always talked about it with him. He was there and he hadn’t gone, he was too young. But he used to follow it. His brother who I knew quite well and – but anybody that came to the house Mum reckoned I’d always steer the conversation into how the war was going.

01:30:00:00

What about your uncles, did they talk to you about their experiences?
Well strangely enough none of them really lived in Cairns. Yeah there was one and he didn’t go, I forgot him. No but one lived in Eire and he wouldn’t talk about it, he just never spoke about the war. I remember him making one, when I was a little boy, making one remark about a flag flying at what must have been Armistice Day or at Anzac Day and was flying my grandmother’s yard and

01:30:30:00

I made some comment about the flag and he just said, “I don’t want to talk about that.” And I always remember that, he said, “I don’t want to talk about that, that’s all finished, it’s gone.” And he died a very old man some time ago in Eire. And he was a great old man. My mother always reckoned he was the most handsome man in Queensland. And she said if he hadn’t of been my brother I’d have married him, she used to always say. But he was a good old bloke.

01:31:00:00

And what did he do in the war?
Oh he went to the Middle East, no not to the Middle East, he went to France, he fought, he was a soldier. And Malcolm was his name, Malcolm Quirk but what he did or where he went you can’t ask me, he never told me and he wouldn’t tell me. And his only brother who went to the war, Gilbert, he was killed and I, I just saw something he wrote. There’s a card in there he’d written

01:31:30:00

to his aunt, and he was a beautiful writer. Which incidentally so, and so is my wife, she’s got the most perfect handwriting you’ve ever seen Marge.
What did he write? What did he write on the card?
Oh he wrote – Nothing, he just said – I think he’d written – by reading it it’s before he left Australia I think. He said just putting my ugly face so you can keep it, he said.

01:32:00:00

But I’ve got to keep it forever unfortunately. He went to Gallipoli and he fought in Gallipoli and then he went to France and he was killed in 1916. Well a man who went to Gallipoli and then went to France in an infantry battalion he had no chance in the world. I mean he was gone, really. But I never knew him of course. He was at the war. He was killed before I was born as a matter of fact.
What did you want to

01:32:30:00

do in the war when you were growing up?
When I was growing up? I don’t know. It’s a bit funny. When I was growing up I thought there was no other future other than in what I was doing. In that respect I was very naïve. I never really imagined there was anything else I could do. You see I went to the war in 1940 and I had never held a permanent job in my life. This might sound as though I was a failure but I

01:33:00:00

wasn’t, I worked hard and I even had money. And nearly everybody who went to the war, and we found that when we got in the army nearly everybody was broke, none of them had any money. And I did have at the back of my mind I would have loved a sugar farm and I still always would have loved one. I would have loved to have been a farmer. But when I came back after the war – when you get on the war I’ll tell you the procedure – they made great stories

01:33:30:00

of how they were going to look after you and do this and that and the other and go and see the agricultural bank. And I raked together a thousand dollars, pounds during the war and I thought I was quite rich and because most of them gambled and drank their money. I drank and I gambled but I was very careful too. I allotted some to my mother who banked it for me and – but that’s by the way. But as I said I really had no ambitions in the world to –
When you said you followed the

01:34:00:00

war did you imagine what you would have wanted to do in the war?
Yes, I somehow thought I was going to lead great charges and be the hero. I never thought of being killed. It never entered my head that I was going to be killed, not in those days. And I was very keen and I used to look at soldiers that came home on leave. I had a great friend Ernie Leigh who came home on leave and I thought gee he looks okay

01:34:30:00

in uniform you know and he was a bit of a hero. And I’m still working and I’m getting around like a ragbag that sort of business. But he went away and got badly wounded and came back to be the butcher and he died many, many years ago. But the main thing I did was play cricket, I was a very, very keen cricketer. Not particularly good when I grew

01:35:00:00

up. I was pretty fair at school but when I grew up I wasn’t so good. But we had a pretty good cricket team and I enjoyed it and I loved it. And I played tennis, which I was a little bit better at. But cricket was always my love and rugby league to a lesser extent. But I used to think to myself I was a bit of a thinker always. I used to think now what’s going to happen if I break my arm or my leg at playing football? I’ll be a burden on my mother and father immediately again. Because I never had any –

01:35:30:00

you know very little money but –
Do you remember exactly where you were when war broke out?
Yes exactly, and that’s the funny thing. I was at a twenty-first birthday party and there was a girl called Gladys Bromham. And I remember I had to go back and down to the rail motor which was about half a mile away or more, nearly a mile away, and I had to walk down and meet a school teacher, Murray

01:36:00:00

Eels who was coming to the party and she was frightened to walk on her own. I went down and got her and walked her back. And in the middle of the night Gilbert Kirk who worked on this farm – Glady Bromham, she was a cousin by a very involved marriage mix up and her mother and father owned the farm. And Gilbert Kirk, a cousin of mine who I was quite friendly, he, in the barracks, now he had a little wireless [radio]. And we went over and we

01:36:30:00

turned the wireless on and we learnt, we heard Bob Menzies [Prime Minister of Australia] speech which I’ve never forgotten, which was a very good speech. Not that I’m a great admirer of Bob Menzies, but still I don’t have to be, but it was it was an excellent speech.
What do you remember him saying?
I can remember him saying “It is my melancholy duty to inform you that we are at war with Germany.” No that “ – because of the actions of Germany, we are now at war.”

01:37:00:00

He was, he was an absolute, just as a speechmaker he was flawless, he was he was good. We could do with him now I think. Well as far his speeches were concerned I always said, I said to my father one day, “He’s very good at picking wars but he never went to one himself.” And that’s the strangest thing if you look at politicians around Australia today. You look at every premier and the prime minister and the leader of the opposition, there’s always wars they could have gone too

01:37:30:00

and not one of them ever went. But they all tell you that it’s good, a good idea, go mate, we’re proud of you. But they never went themselves.
What did you think when you heard that speech?
Well it didn’t really sink in because it was ten thousand miles away and we thought the British Navy would go and blow them to bits. We had the great idea of the British Navy. We all had the idea that the British Navy was the greatest thing in the world. And

01:38:00:00

the French were the greatest soldiers and the Germans what were they doing, they were crazy. But they weren’t so – well they were crazy. We went back to the party and I got pretty full that night, a thing I very seldom do but I did and it was probably why I did. And there was people going around and putting things under their lips and pretending to be Hitler and making speeches. I mean the whole party turned into a thing about the war.

01:38:30:00

I quite enjoyed the party and I still see Glady occasionally when I go to Babinda. She’s retired and living in Babinda now.
Did you kiss her that night?
I probably did but I don’t remember. It mattered little. She was my cousin really I suppose by a mixed up marriage. It’s too deep to explain. But oh yes, yes I probably did.

01:39:00:00

She was friendly. When I went down picking cotton in a place called Jambin – you see when I was in Jambin, I was picking cotton and as I said picking cotton’s a terrible job. You tie a bag around your waist and the cotton plants stand about that high, then you straddle them and pick it off and put them in this bag and you’re bent right over of course. And when you got back you’d lie down and straighten your back at the other end.

01:39:30:00

And I decided this is no good. I had a wireless, I used to listen to it often. So I went home to Goa. But while I was down there I did meet a girl, and this is just as well Marge is not handy, and ah, Audrey Haywood was her name and we became quite friendly. She was about seventeen I think and we became quite friendly and corresponded because when you went away to a war every man had to have a girl, that was just

01:40:00:00

part of the norm, you had to have a girl that you wrote to. And I used to write to her and she was lovely. I saw her when I came home from the Middle East two and a half years later but by this time I was a very different boy to the one that went away when I was twenty-one. And I could smell things were different – very, very quickly I did that and –
How did you meet her?
Well I was picking cotton and we were camping out, we had a tent and we were camped out and they were around there and I got to know

01:40:30:00

her first of all and I got to know her father who was an ex-soldier from the Indian Army, an Englishman. And I got to know him and used to discuss the war with him and he assured me that the British would do them just like, as though it was nothing – that we had no worries at all but – and I met her and we used to go around the house and play cards. We went to a couple of dances but there was very, very little to do and Jambin

01:41:00:00

was worse than Pawngilly really, it was a miserable place. Although it had a pub which I spent a bit of time in.
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 02

02:00:31:00

So can you tell me Doug how you came to be in the army?
Well as I said I’d always followed and had a keen interest in the army when I was home and I was picking cotton down in Jambin. And I was working like a slave and I was making, I was picking a hundred pounds a day. And there’s a friend of mine who’s here and we have an argument every time, I reckon we got tuppence a pound, he reckons we got tuppence haypenny.

02:01:00:00

But for a hundred wasn’t much, you know it wasn’t very much – you’re making, if you worked from daylight until dark you made a pound. And I used to go to Haywood a bit at night but it was the thing and I thought the army, nothing can be harder than this. I found out I was wrong but still in all I joined up and I decided to go home. And I stayed home a few weeks with Mum and she tried to talk me out of it, she didn’t me to

02:01:30:00

go and –
What did she say?
Oh no she just said you’ve given one member of the family up, and she always said he was the nicest member of the family and all this sort of thing and we can never replace him. But I said it’s my duty, I’ve got to do. The average man that joined the army he went in and he felt that it was a big adventure.

02:02:00:00

But I didn’t, I really felt I wanted to do something. That Hitler with all the terrible things he’d done he had to be stopped. And even though I knew that my event on it – I used to dream about doing brave things but I mean I knew my effort wouldn’t make much difference but I felt it was my duty and had been the duty of every other man of my age to go and do their best and turn your back. So anyway I decided to catch a train home

02:02:30:00

and join the army. And it was a rather –
What about your father Doug what did he say? What did your father say?
Well Dad. You know it’s a funny thing, I don’t remember Dad ever saying much about it. He was very proud of me when I went. I remember I was coming home on leave and he took me up the pub there and he had to be there with his son, “My son’s on final leave, he’s going overseas.” And Mum said that he never stopped boasting about you ever since ah

02:03:00:00

you know I really went into action because they knew where I was. No he, he didn’t say a great deal Dad but he suffered a bit I think. And Mum reckoned he used to be half awake half the night when we were in action worrying where I was and what was happening to me. But he was a good old bloke old Dad. It’s a long time ago now. Yeah –

02:03:30:00

So what happened then, you went to join up?
And I went to join up. And I went in and old Bob McLaughlin, Major McLaughlin, I remember he was a lousy old coot because I’ll always remember him. He joined about twenty-five of us up. They used to join them up in groups and send them down to Brisbane to train. And we joined up and when the last – you sit over there when you finish the last, he said, the first thing he said to me “So you want

02:04:00:00

a ringside seat at the big fight?” he said. He didn’t tell me that I was going to be one of the contestants. But ah, when he was finished I always remember this one, when we were finished we went up to the hotel to have a drink, he said, “Come up and I’ll buy you a drink.” And he very carefully didn’t buy us a drink and we bought him a drink and that’s all there was and he was a major. And then next morning he just lined us up and he said, “Well I won’t tell you to quick

02:04:30:00

march you won’t know what I’m talking about so let’s shove off.” And we marched up the street and there were people coming out of pubs trying to give us a bottle of beer and cigarettes and anything of that sort or the other and I didn’t drink much in those days – well I don’t drink much now. And then we got in the train and we went south. And they looked after us fairly well – they gave us meals and everything on the way down. But there wasn’t much to it, we joined up.

02:05:00:00

Now when I come to think of it I did I went through it and I had to come back the following day I think. I forget exactly and what happened now but –
Were there many men that joined with you that day?
Oh yes there was a few of them, there’s a few of them. We have a battalion association here, the 2/15th. And the secretary of it Johnny Morris he was in the same group as I was. But they’re nearly all gone but he’s still alive and I saw him

02:05:30:00

on Anzac Day and he looks anything but well too, he looks very ill. He couldn’t march but there was a few of them. And we went everywhere when we got here. A lot of them joined the 15th but they went to anti-tank and they went to aircraft and they went to various jobs. They asked them where they wanted to go and foolishly I said the infantry which was probably the worse place I could have gone and –
Why was that?
Well the infantry if you know the army

02:06:00:00

the infantry’s right out in front with – there’s nothing in front of the infantry except the enemy, was our great cry we used to say and it’s true, the infantry, the infantry and the engineers they were the two that had the heavy casualties in the war. They were, they were atrocious sometimes, on a few occasions. Best friends, people you knew and lived with and they were – you’d just look down and they were

02:06:30:00

a mangled bit of much and –
Why did you want to be in the infantry?
Because I didn’t know any better probably. No I don’t know I thought I wanted to get at them, that was my idea, I wanted to get at them. No I was a sig [signalman] which I probably didn’t do much firing or anything, I did a bit but I didn’t do too much firing because my idea was fix up telephone lines to run a wireless and those sort of things. But

02:07:00:00

as I said I wanted the infantry because I felt that that was the place where he was going to be beaten and it was too. And one of the things that always amuses me a little bit, I know a lot of people in the services here, in the RSL and what not and when you think there was only about one in three who saw any action during the war, the rest of them were in the lines of supply and all that. And yet I

02:07:30:00

suppose they collect all the accolades the same as we do now but that’s the way it worked out. I’m not complaining at all because I’m here.
What was that initial train ride like down south?
Down to Brisbane? Oh I’d been to Rocky picking cotton, I’d had them before but I’d never been to Brisbane and I tell you I looked at those buildings when I came down, I thought they were – and Brisbane wasn’t very big in those days but I did. It was a lovely train ride.

02:08:00:00

I quite enjoyed it but they just packed you in. You had a seat, one, two, three, four, you know and they were old type carriages and you were packed in. But it was a good trip. They fed us well, they looked after us well, they gave us an evening meal in Townsville and lunch and I don’t know –
How long would that have taken?
Oh it was just as fast as today practically, you know about thirty hours, yeah. But

02:08:30:00

it was, it’s not a pleasant trip. Well it is a pleasant trip, my wife and I make it yearly. And we’ve flown a few times but Marge doesn’t like flying so we go up by train and we have a first class sleeper and I often say I did this twenty-five or thirty times in the war sitting up and now look at the way I’m doing it now. It’s no cheaper for us to go up by train than it is flying because they drop such specials around now.

02:09:00:00

My daughter in Sydney was listening to the wireless the other day or in October and she said you can fly to Sydney for thirty-eight dollars why don’t you come down? And so it was thirty-eight dollars down and back for the pair of us and we went down there and it was really good. Except that Marge said, “No more, never again in an aeroplane.” So we’ll be going up this year to Cairns so I presume we’ll be travelling off in the train again.
And when you got to Brisbane what do you remember thinking about the city?
Well when I got to Brisbane

02:09:30:00

it was all new. They went out to Fraser’s Paddock which is a part of the Enoggera Army Base now. And they lined you up and asked you what you were and we were a bunch of civvies [civilians] and I was pretty skinny in those days and I found everything great trouble, everything seemed to be that far to around the tummy. And ah, and they just put us into various units. And ah, and there’s only one person I really

02:10:00:00

knew there, there was one person on the train I came down with but he went to a different unit, he went to the anti-tank. And I knew him Bruce and – oh Ken, Ken Simmons I knew him well and but he was the only one but then he left and I knew no-one. I was coming in amongst a thousand men they had in the 15th Battalion when we were there and I didn’t know a person. But you soon made friends because you

02:10:30:00

spoke to the fellow in the next bunk and what not. But it was, it was a completely new experience, it was something completely new and different and –
Do you remember how you were feeling about the experience?
Oh – Except that oh well I’ve got what I want now I’ve got to do the job now and whether I did it that’s another matter or not. But I did, no I had no terrible feelings, I

02:11:00:00

I was proud of myself, well I thought I’ve done what. And it took me about forty-eight hours to wake up that the infantry was the worst place to be. Well not the worse place but the place if you wanted action it was the place to be. I’d been told it before and um, old Con Lannighan in Cairns had told me that. He said he’d been captured in the First World War, he said “Keep out of that infantry.” But I was pleased I was there and we shifted over to Redbank

02:11:30:00

and went into camp. We were only there for three weeks and we went to Darwin. I joined up on the fourth of June and we left Darwin on the 1st of July.
What did you do for three weeks at Redbank?
Well we went completely to a rookie squad. And we were lucky, they were some of them had a rough time in the rookie squad but we had a permanent warrant officer from the First World War. And he took us and he was very good our chap. I can’t even remember his name – I was trying to think of it but I can’t. And he said um, “Now

02:12:00:00

you’re no soldier and I have been for twenty-five years,” he said “And I’ve got to make you the best.” But he said “They’ll be no sarcasm. They’ll be no picking on anybody,” he said, “That’s all I ask.” And some of them had some very rough times. The bloke said “You’re a bunch of galahs. You don’t know what you’re doing.” You know, “You’ll never make a soldier,” but he was particularly good and it’s a strange thing when we were coming

02:12:30:00

home from the Middle East I got off the train at Kalinga. And I got off the train and I walked up and the first thing that was in front of me was him. And I said to him, “Good lord do you remember me?” “No,” he said, “I can’t remember you. Were you in one of my rookie squads?” I said yes that I was in one. And he said, “I must have made a reasonable job, he said you’re about the fourth I’ve struck so far today that knew him. But he was very good and I quite enjoyed it. But we only had him for a fortnight and then I think we were back in, the platoon

02:13:00:00

went back to a single platoon then. The army, oh I don’t know if you know, is broken up into platoons. number one is the sigs, it’s the most important we used to tell everybody and then they go right through to the battalions. There was two, two was anti-craft and three was mortars and right through to the rifle companies and then they broke down into sections then.
Doug can you tell me a little bit more about that

02:13:30:00

two, that first two weeks of training? What sort of things did you do?
Well the first thing he taught us was to try and march in step, which wasn’t very difficult for me but some of them found it difficult. And it was just everything. He told us about the army. He told us how to salute which was most important in those days, most important. And we had no weapons or anything of that sort it was just purely march and how to march and

02:14:00:00

the way to form up and the various drill movements there were – we learnt all of those. And it was only about – it was, when I say a fortnight I believe it was a fortnight but I’m not certain of that but it was a quite enjoyable because we used to go, I’d never been in Brisbane before and there was a man, Andy Hogg, was in the next, he now lives in Wellington Point, and he ah, he said to me do you want to go to town? And I said yeah well I want to go to town,

02:14:30:00

but I won’t know my way. But he took me home, and to his home. And I always remember we went to the movies, he lined the girl up next door and we went to the movies. These are the sort of things I remember and I always remember I had my hat on, and I took her to this movies and you asked me did I kiss her, I tried to kiss her and the chin strap got in the road. I’ve never forgotten that, I’ve never forgotten that, it’s been one of the amusing stories of mine. It was most

02:15:00:00

embarrassing. It never happened again I can tell you.
You worked out how to move the strap?
I put it at the back of the head so my hat was on. And she lives down in Gosford now so Andy tells me. He’s still alive and he tells me that she lives down in Gosford. She’s got a pub. So I must go to Gosford or something. But there wasn’t a great deal in the – it was just roughly taking off the rough things and making

02:15:30:00

it so you jump when you were spoken to and you could, and you knew all the basic movements the army done, did. But if they showed you a rifle, they gave you rifle and, well I’d done a bit of fighting, I was in a, bit of rifle hooch, anyway I was in the country. But it was um, it was quite good I quite enjoyed it, it was the best part of it really. And he was good and the team was good. I always remember we had one,

02:16:00:00

one chap, he couldn’t march, he didn’t know how to march and he had a terrible lot of trouble old Merv. But he was very kind to him. He was he was very good really, he could have been very bad tempered and most of them were. They all reckon they were, they were a crotchety team but our fellow was very good. And I enjoyed that first fortnight in the army. And I went into town with Andy Hogg and then I knew

02:16:30:00

my way and in the end I used to go in myself and poke around and –
What was happening in Brisbane? Were there a lot of American soldiers around?
Oh no, no this is in 1940. Americans didn’t come into the war until 1942. They might tell you they won it, well they might, might have to, they played their part, but we were going for two years ahead of them and – Oh no there was no Americans and there as not so many servicemen. There was a few, quite a few. They used to,

02:17:00:00

en mass, used to come up by train from Redbank and you used to blossom out – never used to pay your fare incidentally. That was run by, on your behalf by the Queensland Government and they couldn’t stop two hundred and fifty people from – couldn’t sell them all a ticket. But no it was a very placid time really, I really enjoyed it and –
So what happened after those two weeks? You went to sigs – ?
Well after two weeks we went back to

02:17:30:00

the unit and that’s when we met our officers and our sergeants and they picked them and incidentally for a short period – well we did we went back and the first fellow we had was a Lieutenant McDonald, and not many people – I’ve been ordered around by Lieutenant McDonald finished up as full general. He was a permanent army man and he was just out of the college and

02:18:00:00

and he finished up being chief of the general staff and the chief army man in the whole of Australia. And he wasn’t the friendliest sort of man because they were real soldiers – well they weren’t soldiers, they knew every bit of drill, they’d been to Duntroon and then, but then our real officer came back a bloke called Morrison. He was very good because Geoff was, he was a wireless mechanic and he came from Mackay.

02:18:30:00

Unfortunately he was one of our first casualties but he was very good, very friendly. He used to write bits on – he used to – as you know they read all your letters before you write them, after you’ve written them and he used to read them and he used to write a foot note on some of mine to Mum. I read them after I came home which amused me slightly.
What sort of footnotes did he – ?
Oh that I was doing well and I was behaving myself and all that. I said to Mum he wasn’t talking to a ten month

02:19:00:00

old baby or something he was talking to a grown man. But he was good, he took a bit of interest in everybody. He was a good bloke. He was the one who always told the various story of when he was living in Mackay. He was on a crank wireless and there was a chap living on the island they have out, about four hundred miles out, I’ll think of this island,

02:19:30:00

and they’re on cyclone watches. And this fellow, the only way they could talk was on Morse [Morse Code], and he used to send Geoff Morse messages. And he’d say now this is a letter so Geoff would take it down and his wife would type it out. And to girlfriends he said all very affectionate and loving. Now he said send this to the following

02:20:00:00

addresses he said and he sent him four different addresses to send them to. And thought it was very, very amusing because he was newly married Geoff and he couldn’t see why any man could look and want more than one woman you see. And then he reckoned his wife complained bitterly because she was, she must have been a friendly sort of soul because she typed them. He said if she’d have done the nasty thing she would have sent carbon copies out. This is the days

02:20:30:00

before you had all your new implements, they were all done on the old telephone, on the old mechanical typewriters. And then we went to Darwin. Now we trained very hard in Darwin, it wasn’t an easy place. We went up to Darwin and –
How did you get up to Darwin?
We went in a boat called the Zealandier. As I said earlier it was the best troop ship I ever travelled in. Four of us had a cabin

02:21:00:00

to ourselves. Called in at Townsville on the way up and I saw an uncle of mine on the wharf I might say then too. And we went to Darwin. It took about a week and it was, it was really good in July –
Can you describe a bit about the Zealandier? What was the ship like?
Well she was about six thousand tons I suppose, yeah she was about six thousand tons. She was a passenger ship and where she was before the war I don’t know. But they used her as a troop ship between Brisbane and Darwin

02:21:30:00

for many times. And we were the first ones that travelled on her so she was, she was still a civilian ship. And the food was fair but they’d given us our needles the day before we left and we all got very, very sick on the way up. I know we called at Townsville, at Townsville on the way up and we were sick as dogs and we were just lying around. Nobody thought about leave, oh they didn’t want to get off that boat.

02:22:00:00

But she was a nice, a nice boat. The food was good and the crew were good and the cabins were comfortable and that’s about the best you ever got in a ship when you went. They were pretty, some of them were pretty terrible and she was excellent.
What did you do during the day?
Oh we’d train. Oh we had clatterers and we used to practise Morse. You see a soldier

02:22:30:00

if he got a certain grading in the sigs he got two shillings a day extra which was a fortune, and you had to do Morse at twenty words a minute. And I could do it and it took me a lot of work I might say but, and this was the greatest thing I ever got this twenty, twenty cents, it was – and the wages were six dollars a day, sixty cents a day, I’m sorry. Sixty cents a day and you got this

02:23:00:00

twenty cents extra for doing Morse. And we did PT [physical training] and got lectures on the war by a bunch of officers who knew as much about as we did because they’d never been there but they’d read a bit about it and we filled in the time. It wasn’t that bad. The food was good and we called in at Darwin which was an absolute frontier town in 1940. There was only about

02:23:30:00

four or five thousand people there in Darwin. And there were two-up schools in the main street and oh brothels. There was everything in Darwin, it was a real frontier town
And what did you think of it when you first got there?
Well we got there and we stayed in the boat for a day, and I read that in our battalion history as a matter of fact, and then we travelled out to Vestey’s Meatworks. Now Vestey’s Meatworks was a

02:24:00:00

meatworks that was built just, during the war, during the first years of the First World War, and it had run for its life and it cost millions. It was run for its life for a total of six weeks at the Woolenhavock [?UNCLEAR]. Why they built it I will never know, there was not enough cattle to run it and they couldn’t get the staff there to run it. And we were camped but it was a monstrous place, if you like later I’ve got a photo that I will show you.

02:24:30:00

We were camped in the packing shed and the packing shed put two hundred and fifty men in a camp and it had a boxing ring and two offices in it and it was a monstrous room this. But then we went out there, and that’s by the way, we went out there and well from then on we trained. Over every hillock and everything I know it Darwin. Down to the sea and over to the Parap Hotel, we knew our way across, out the back way across there of course.

02:25:00:00

But we ah, we had an enjoyable time in Darwin. But of course we were very bitter about it because we were the only troops in the whole of the Australian Army that didn’t do our service training near a capital city or near a big city. And we were absolutely unfortunate in this the 15th Battalion did all their training in Australia, even after we came home from the Middle East, up in the Atherton Tablelands where there were no cities and it was

02:25:30:00

absolutely terrible. And besides that women life it was absolutely non-existent in Darwin, it was full of men and a pretty rough and tough bunch. And the Darwin Mobile Force of course which they had a permanent army there about three hundred of them. And that’s where we held our first strife with because we just had a running war with them the whole time we were there. We were just fought them wherever,

02:26:00:00

and wherever you saw them you fought them and –
What happened in the fights?
Oh we won some, we lost some I suppose. But they were all big men because they were bigger than us really. But there were a lot more of us then there were of them so we made up for – I remember we had a Labour Day of all times fell in September I think it was up there, anyway it wasn’t May the first as here, it was later in the year. And they were there

02:26:30:00

in big numbers and we went out there in bigger numbers and they finished up with a brawl and it was all over – I wasn’t in it I was on guard duty luckily. Luckily we weren’t called out to try and quell it. And they fought all over the sports field the 15th Battalion and the Darwin Mobile Force. But they were good blokes and they thought we were a bunch of rookies but we saw action because they never really saw it at all

02:27:00:00

really – as a unit they didn’t see it. But that wasn’t their fault. But at Darwin there were lovely beaches, Mendel Beach, a lovely beach. Have you been there to Darwin? It’s got a lovely town park, gardens and what and they were beautiful, and we used to get down there. But the only thing was – and a couple of nice cafes,

02:27:30:00

The Tropic and what was it The Something and the Tropics, the café it was quite good. That’s where if you want an off colour story that’s where I met a chap who was there, and I won’t do it to you but he, she had Rendezvous in the Tropics, that’s the name of i,t and she had it, Rendezvous in the Tropics across here. And he looked over and he said, “And what’s that there? What’s that there?” And she said, “That means – ” Whack. And she,

02:28:00:00

and she gave him, whacked him right across the ear. He was wanting to know what rendezvous in the tropics. He knew well enough afterwards anyway that she objected to him doing, to making strokes on her body on that portion of her anyway.
So with that many men in Darwin were the brothels really full?
Pardon?
With that many men in Darwin were the brothels really full?
I don’t know and I can tell you quite truthfully I was a complete virgin and

02:28:30:00

no I never visited. They were there, I knew where they were. And the pubs were rough but the brothels were there. But no I don’t know, I don’t think there were so many there but they were there and as I said I never visited them. It’s a strange thing, when we went Darwin, there’s no-one here I can talk to about Darwin, I’ve got three or four from my own battalion, they went to the Middle East with us but none of them ever visited Darwin, they didn’t

02:29:00:00

go up to Darwin. I always tell them I was the only man, that there is around here, that went up to Darwin in the first place and was still with them in Borneo at the last, a lot of them got out and got into easier jobs when they came home from the Middle East or before we went up to Borneo. But I suppose a lot of them went. But no I suppose a lot of them went, I don’t know, I was never inclined. A lot them did in Brisbane I know that, that was a favourite place for them to go in Brisbane.

02:29:30:00

Did they give you warnings about – ? I mean we’ve heard about lectures and – ?
Oh yes, oh yes they had the blue light outfit at the place they went. Yes you had them and you gave yourself treatment before the event and you visited the blue light afterwards and you said you never got it, I don’t know I never got it and I never went to those places.

02:30:00:00

I suppose you’d say I was so keen on everything, I just wanted to fight a war and I wanted to win it. And I told you when I was in action I wasn’t so keen I can tell you that. But I was, I was, in those days I was –
Did you find the signals training difficult?
Yes I did because I had no education. But I found signal training very difficult as a matter of fact. And I probably worked harder on worse than

02:30:30:00

any of them and I finished up one of the best, best in the platoon because I – there was only one, one better and that was the bloke Andy Hogg I spoke about of being over in ah, in Wellington Point now, and he just lost his wife about three weeks ago. And he worked in the PMG [Postmaster Generals Department] and that was his job, a wireless operator. And he went on and did particularly well. He would have been a good man to interview incidentally. And

02:31:00:00

he went on and when telegrams went out he took a job because he could type very well, very quickly because used to all type, he went up to Darwin as a court recorder. And he finished up CPS [Clerk of Petty Sessions] of Canberra. Now that’s hard to believe. It’s one of the most remarkable rises I think he finished CPS in Alice Springs before he went to Canberra.

02:31:30:00

And he was well known. I went up to Darwin, my son was in Darwin later on and I went up to see him and he was – If you mentioned Andy Hogg half, half the town knew him and by this time there were twenty-five thousand people there. But he was a great bloke Andy. But he was the best operator by a street.
What sort of things did you have to do in signals?
Signals? Well you had to learn Morse. They taught us

02:32:00:00

Semaphore, which was useless because no-one’s going to get up and swing a couple of flags around. And we all learnt it but I mean it was a joke and even our officer Geoff used to say now this is a joke you won’t be doing this of course. And then they had a little weapon called – well we did heliographs and – and then we had one called a Fuller Phone. Now a Fuller Phone was a little square box like this and you could only Morse

02:32:30:00

on it but it was a direct current job and it came on a telephone line. It was impossible to be, for anything to be taken off except by a Fuller Phone that was calibrated to the same as yours. And we did a lot of work on the Fuller Phone, particularly in Tobruk we did a lot of work on the Fuller Phone – we did Morse all the time in Tobruk. I came out a real operator when we came out to Tobruk. But we learnt to do the Fuller Phone and we did manoeuvres

02:33:00:00

with the 31st, with the mobile force as the enemy and you know we made them up true sense of the word. But enjoyed Darwin. And the training was good but I never found that the training we did ever was anything like it was when we went into action, I’ll put it that way. I’ve always wondered how – Of course I don’t know, I was never, I rose to the dizzy rank of a corporal in the army, I

02:33:30:00

really don’t know how – it might be excellent for the army. I think tutes were better for them. That’s technical things without troops and they –
What did you like about the sigs?
The sigs?
Initially?
Well we did get it a little bit easier than the other chaps, I like that but that was only because it happened that way. And I knew by then, I always thought well by gee you might know,

02:34:00:00

know something when you can do Morse as well as I can do it. But of course when you came out Morse was a dying duck, in New Guinea we never used it. It was like everything else you didn’t care where you went. You joined the army, they put you in a platoon and I was in one platoon and I made some very great friends. Dave Porter and Lou McIntyre and these blokes and Hal

02:34:30:00

Mennery and those they were very, very close friends. And that was your home, that’s where you came home, you knew everybody, you came home and that was home. And that went on for five and a half years and you had no other home other than your platoon. And I suppose you no idea that a rifle company might have been better. I don’t think it would have been, I think it would have been worse, I was happier where I was. But they split us up later, put us out. There were always two or three with each company in the army

02:35:00:00

but in camp we were all in one place.
Were there any fights within the men?
Oh yes, yes, although not many but there were some, there were some fights. Because men used to have a fights. I remember the old sergeant had a fight with the paymaster I remember him doing that, and he won it too. Up in Darwin that was. But there wasn’t many, there were odds

02:35:30:00

but usually we got on well together. There was none in the platoon that I know of. There were blokes that didn’t like each other much you knew that. We had a very big sergeant called Alf Potter who was – He kept a pretty close eye on – He was a very big man and a man who later on had a very distinguished war record in this respect that he was captured and escaped and rejoined us in the Middle East and he was

02:36:00:00

a great fellow Alf who went very, very bad later. He went absolutely completely bad. It was a terrible thing. When you’re handsome, good-looking, good soldier, good everything. Except that the army’s where he should have stayed, he might have been better off, off if he had. The last time I saw him he came to Cairns and he rang me up from down in Brisbane and this Andy Hogg he rang me up, he was in the sigs

02:36:30:00

in those days, he rang me up and he said, “Potter’s come to the Cairns,” he said, “Don’t take him to the RSL.” I said all right I won’t take him to the RSL and I remember going and having a few drinks with him at the Palace Hotel. I can still remember, I wouldn’t have remembered if I’d have taken him to the RSL but I remember because I took him – and he behaved himself, he was quite good and I thought they – He was well dressed and everything. He had a sister in Cairns and she told me she had a terrible time with him while he was there. He played up and

02:37:00:00

gabbled on. But I was very sorry to hear it because I had a lot of affection for old Alf.
When you say bad what do you mean?
Well he –
He got into the drink or – ?
Drink and I think he got onto drugs, not drugs like they do today but drugs, they were prescribed drugs. He wasn’t with the world half the time. This is all hearsay to me, they tell me this, that you couldn’t get a logical conversation. He used to go around and bludge.

02:37:30:00

Andy Hogg said he came up to him and said can I come and stay with you for a couple of days and he said oh sure, sure. You would, you’d have said that to any chap you knew in the army. And he said I had him for three weeks and I couldn’t get rid of him, I didn’t know how to get rid of him.
And do you think his experiences as a POW [prisoner of war] affected him?
No I don’t think so, I don’t think so. It’s a strange thing, I read a book some time ago or some years ago now of the chap that escaped with him, they escaped from Benghazi and walked to Tobruk which was

02:38:00:00

a matter of a hundred and fifty kilometres – all through enemy held territory. And this other fellow who was with him wrote a book and I picked it up out of the library here one day just by chance. And I read it and he said a big Australian called Alf. So it could only have been the one chap at the same time and everything. But I don’t think it affected him. He was quite good in the army, he never did anything wrong in the army. That was in 1941, that that happened.

02:38:30:00

Well he might have left before me but it would have been only days before me that he was discharged and I never saw him again until that one day I saw him in Cairns, one afternoon, I went and had a few drinks with him. It was one of those terrible – He was the only – well no we had another one. It might have been being sergeants. We had another sergeant, he also went bad. He used to drink and his marriage

02:39:00:00

broke up and you know he finished up in Ipswich and being, you know just being, doing a labouring job and he had been purchasing officer for Peters Ice-cream at one stage, but he just went bad and couldn’t hold a good sized job. It didn’t happen to many but it did happen to a few. And they’re very sad, they’re very sad. I’ve been very lucky it never happened to me, that I kept –

02:39:30:00

Where did you think you were going to go from Darwin? What were they telling you?
Well we knew where we were going because everybody was doing the trip. We were going to come back to Brisbane and we knew it was just a staging camp from there to the Middle East. We came back to Brisbane and we got back here, oh I don’t know it was in November

02:40:00:00

when I was on leave anyway and then they gave us a week’s final leave. Final leave they called it and for many of us of course, for many of them it was final pure and simply. And then we came back and we were in camp and – well it was in November and on Christmas Day we went overseas. But we went back to, we went to Cairns and I had a good time but then it had struck me what was happening and I was very sad and I was looking at my mother and I’m thinking

02:40:30:00

well God I’ll never see her again. I always feel that, well I didn’t actually feel it, I thought there was always the chance. I was very lucky I went through until – the only time I really had any great fear of being killed was when I went to Borneo and it was the place I should have had the least fear of being killed because I never saw an angry Jap in Borneo.
So was it an unhappy goodbye to your parents?
Oh yes it was very unhappy. It was very, very sad.

02:41:00:00

Poor old Mum was broken up and she always felt that Jim ran bigger risks. I always felt that because he’d been a good boy that Jim was a bit of a favourite ahead of me. But Jim was, Jim never went overseas but she always felt that the two of us were gone, the only two that she had and she thought that, she never realised that he was ground staff in the air force and he chances of being killed were pretty slim.

02:41:30:00

But she was good she didn’t worry – well she worried I suppose but she never showed it too much. She came into the train station when it passed through Babinda, and I remember my sister was there and I hadn’t seen her, she’d been away out west somewhere and she came running up the station to see me and she was about seventeen and she said, “You know that new suit you’ve got, that new suit you’ve got?” I said, “Yes I remember that.” She said, “Can I have it?” I said, “What do you want it for?” She said, “I want to alter it because it’ll –
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 03

03:00:31:00

Okay, just going back to Darwin, can you tell us the story about being ill after eating some cupcakes? You got sick in Darwin after eating something?
Not me I don’t think.
Oh okay. Can we stop there for a second?
Yes well on the way back from Darwin we came back again on the Zealandia and the Zealandia was a coal driven

03:01:00:00

vessel. She had to get coal and we called in at Bowen and I that’s where all the Macleans originally came from. And I had an aunt that came down to see me and it was just about on my birthday and she made two great cream cakes and brought them down and gave them to us. On the wharf there was no secrecy about it, we were there and we were leaving. And she gave us this and we ate them before we came to Brisbane. Yes

03:01:30:00

and I was sick. That wasn’t in Darwin that was just outside Brisbane, I was quite ill. And somebody else was, I don’t know who it was because we all sat down there and drank beer and ate cream cakes, yes.
And that was before you left to – ?
And that’s before we, on the way back to Darwin from Brisbane before we had our final ABS [leave].

03:02:00:00

Just speaking about Darwin, you said that the training in Darwin was really tough. What was really tough about it?
Well I always feel if they didn’t know, if they woke up in the morning and they didn’t know what you were to do for the next twenty-four hours they’ll say look we’ll take a twenty mile route march. And away you’d go and you’d do the route march. You might do fifteen miles, camp out, come back and do the seven mile back the following morning. But that’s what they’d do. Well I suppose it was toughening up exercise.

03:02:30:00

And then we got, went overseas and we got weakened off all the way over on the boat you see so it didn’t make much difference at all.
How did you find the physical part of the training?
It was no, it was no trouble to me. As you can see I’m not a big man but I mean I’d been, worked on farms and lived an outdoor life and I had no problem at all. But a lot of them did, the city boys had a lot of trouble. Their feet played up and their condition gave out and all that.

03:03:00:00

But for me no, no I had no, no bother at all. I was very lucky in that respect.
How quickly did people make friends during training?
Oh almost immediately and you very seldom made a mistake, that’s what got me. You know all the friends I made in the first week they were – we moved, the originals we used to call ourselves, we moved in a little circle and we used to go together. Oh well the others were in it to a certain extent but we never, I never really

03:03:30:00

made a great friend who joined us later.
So it was all in those early stages?
Yeah it was all Dave, Dave Porter and Lou McIntyre and Sandy Mennery and those fellows and they were all, we were all very close early and –
And how did you become so close?
Well I don’t know. Well there was no other, there were no women in Darwin, certainly there was none, and not too many in Brisbane either – well there wasn’t for me anyway. And well you had these friends and they were in the

03:04:00:00

same boat. Like Dave Porter for instance he came from Mackay and he had a girlfriend in Mackay so he was behaving himself and I had a girlfriend in Rockhampton and I was not as serious about behaving myself as he was but I mean we did behave ourselves.
And what was it about one another that you, that you said you sort of, you didn’t make any mistakes of making friends. What was it about them?
Well you see to begin with you’d be lying in, and they were in long barracks

03:04:30:00

we were camped in and at night you’d be lying in these barracks and you’d be talking to the fellow in the next bed or three or four of you would be sitting on something. The beds were just bales of straw lying along the floor. And you’d talk to them and you’d say that blokes got the same ideas as I’ve got and you know you’d see fellows, oh I can see Doug and McDonald and those blokes they were, they talked rubbish and you’d say well he’s not my type of bloke and you just wouldn’t, you know you wouldn’t get him the circle and –

03:05:00:00

What sort of things would you talk about late at night?
Well, well the war. But mostly about women I suppose and they all had their conversation about women. Most of them, most of them had girlfriends and those that didn’t like myself had a, well I had a friend but you’d um, you’d persuade, you’d kid yourself that you had one that was really, really serious. But I mean it was mostly about girls, I mean they were a pretty high topic of conversation

03:05:30:00

amongst soldiers, girls. And sport and anything. Great talks on sport on football and cricket and those sort of things yes.
You said earlier you were really quite an innocent really when you went to Darwin so you didn’t visit brothels or anything.
I was.
But what did you know about sex?
Nothing, and that’s a pretty fair answer isn’t it? I knew nothing about it at all.
So nobody had ever told you anything about it?
No, and

03:06:00:00

that’s a fact, nobody had taught, told me anything about it at all. I knew all about it but well I knew most about it but no we were, I was a very innocent, I mean Mum and Dad were very good but they let you come up very innocently and yeah I knew nothing about it at all.
So when the blokes were talking about girls was sex the topic of conversation?
Oh quite often, not always of course but sex and sports they were the two main topics.

03:06:30:00

And how you hated the army – you always said that whether you did or not. But I mean they were the three topics of conversation.
And did you learn a little about sex in those early weeks of training?
Oh no I don’t think so. The talk about women wasn’t that way I suppose inclined. They’d tell you about it, and they’d tell you what lovely blonde hair she had and what a beautiful girl she was and that’s all. And that’s all. No they never

03:07:00:00

really got on – it’s something you had to learn from practise I suppose.
So you said that people would say they hated the army, what sort of things did you hate about it?
No they didn’t hate the army, they used to say so, yes it was the in thing to say you didn’t like it. “Oh I joined it. Why’d I join this bloody army for? Oh a man wants to get his head read, he’s in it and deserves it.” But they really weren’t speaking from their hearts at all. They joined it, nobody made them. You went up, there was no conscription, there was nothing

03:07:30:00

at all, you just went up and said I’d like, I’d like to join the army. And as I said the old fellow said, “You want to ringside seat at the big fight?” And well you were there and to me I’d done it and that was it until I got out. We used to, later on we used to get very dissatisfied and quite rightly I felt because the likes of us, the originals, we went through it again and again and again and again. And the blokes in the back they, they shovelled

03:08:00:00

the food up to you again and again and again and nobody was firing at them. And I’ve always felt that when you came up out of action they should have whipped twenty-five percent of you out and put another twenty-five percent of you in and ah, and you’d have still been a good fighting force because the number was there. And then the following time it happened then the next twenty-five percent would go but it didn’t happen that way.
You said the training was pretty gruelling in Darwin but how much did they actually prepare you

03:08:30:00

for the sort of things that you would be facing?
Well quite frankly I didn’t think it was very much. I mean as I said earlier it was a more, I think it was more a toughening up project and when all’s said and done I don’t, we had one officer in our battalion that had been to the war. And he was our quarter master sergeant and he’d been there. He was a DCM [Distinguished Conduct Medal] winner so he’d definitely been at the war. But they knew nothing about it.

03:09:00:00

But how could they teach us? They’d only read about it the same as we did and they tried and they probably read about it but I mean – I don’t think that our, our training in Darwin was really – it was better than in the Middle East I suppose because we did firing, we did use live ammo [ammunition] there but I mean in Darwin we didn’t. Of course everything was completely short in Australia. You see we were to go into action and when we went to the Middle East we’d never seen a Bren gun which was

03:09:30:00

the fighting implement of the infantry.
And you’d never seen one before that?
Well I’d seen one but we’d never had one on issue to the battalion. When we got to the Middle East they supplied us with them then and not sufficiently. When we went up the desert to face, to face the Germans we were about half armed I suppose. We had rifles and we had the ammo and we had that terrible gun they call the

03:10:00:00

anti-tank gun, the point five thing. It was a terrible useless thing.
So in Darwin what sort of equipment were you training with?
Well the equipment in Darwin was pretty fair. The equipment in Darwin was far better than it was in Brisbane because they did have the permanent army and I think our blokes used to borrow it off them, off the permanent forces, they were armed. There were only four hundred of them

03:10:30:00

but they were armed. And I think they used to get their equipment. I saw my first fuller phone in Darwin and I never saw another one until we were at Mersa Brega in the desert. And it seemed to us a bit silly, well it seemed to me, not too many of us thought about it but they had the implements there and we didn’t have them when we went up to the desert.
Did you see any people in training who broke down under the pressure of the training?
Yes well there was one, one fellow came broke down

03:11:00:00

for us, yes he did. But why he did it, he was definitely wasn’t the type, he was, you know he was not, he wasn’t very smart and he had no idea what he’d let himself in for. The rest of the boys all knew what they were all going to but he, he didn’t know. Well there were odd ones. We had odd ones all throughout the war who broke down and had to be taken out.

03:11:30:00

Often to jail too because they wouldn’t go.
And how was that, initially in training anyway, how was that young man treated by the other troops?
Well I don’t remember. He wasn’t in our platoon. We had no-one it had happened to. But I think they were all right, I think everybody was, was pretty wise. If he was going to get out he was going to get out. The first thing you’d have them, they’d tell me, the man would be there and the next day he’d be gone. But we had one bloke

03:12:00:00

he got out and I think we treated him all right. He went to the fire brigade and then was doing training and fell off a ladder and killed himself too incidentally.
Were there any accidents in training while you were still in Australia?
I saw none. We saw none at all. None with us. There were odd ones that happened about but there was none with us at all, no.
So moving on to that final leave that

03:12:30:00

you had when you farewelled your family. You said that your parents were pretty upset about it.
Yeah.
How upset were you at that time?
Oh I was upset because as you might have seen when I talked back to my first wife I got a little bit upset, well I was upset like that. But really when I got on, it was what I wanted to do. I was doing what I wanted to do although I hated leaving Mum and hated leaving Dad and the kids and the family. But I was going and that was it and was all right when I hit the train and I met

03:13:00:00

three or four blokes I knew. And somebody said “Have a rum,” and I had a rum and then that’s, you’d be right from then on.
Were the other young blokes all feeling the same way do you think?
I think so, most of them. I saw no-one that really took it terribly badly. They took it badly when they were with them but when they got away they sort of said well we’ve got to go and it’s our decision and we’re men, we’re not boys now. We were boys when we joined but after the six months in

03:13:30:00

Darwin that really kicked it out of us.
You said that during training you used to talk about the war as well and what sort of things did you say about the war to one another?
Well you see we had the very wrong conception about the war. We felt the war was very much like the first war. And it’s crazy when you think what they did. What our officers did was absolutely crazy, like holding front lines with men instead

03:14:00:00

of with firepower when the firepower they had, to me it seems absolutely inconceivable that they did it. And we used to talk about this and you know when we’re in, particularly when we were on our way to the Middle East we knew that it wasn’t so far away and we used to think our chances of getting out of it you know weren’t good. Because you know they’d come up on a mile front and they’d march seven or eight thousand men go over the front like that. Well they didn’t do that in the Second World War.

03:14:30:00

Well we did at El Alamein but we did it at night. We were lucky it was an open area of the desert too.
Did you discuss with one another the possibility of being killed or wounded?
No, no very seldom. We may have once or twice when some chap got morbid and somebody would tell him, “Don’t be so bloody morbid.” They’d say and that would be the extent of our discussion. No, oh no you couldn’t start that, you’d run yourself down, you’d be useless as soldiers if you did that.

03:15:00:00

So you met up with those blokes on the train to Sydney and you said you had a rum and everything. What was the mood like then among you?
Oh they were all excited at going because we knew we were going to go on the Queen Mary and that was a great secret but it had leaked out, we were going on the Queen Mary. And when we got there, I got out of the train right at the wharf and I looked and I saw this great –

03:15:30:00

She couldn’t come up to the wharf the Queen Mary. You had to go out in a barge to get on her, she was too big. This great enormous boat, eighty odd thousand tons of her sitting up in the – not sitting up but standing up there and she was a beautiful sight, she was a beautiful looking ship but we didn’t have very good accommodation on her. We had our accommodation was a breakfast room annexe that they had and they put bunks up quite high,

03:16:00:00

about three up I think.
So when you first saw the Queen Mary it was quite impressive?
Oh most impressive. She was a most impressive looking boat, the Queen Mary. It’s the only time I saw her getting on her and getting off her naturally.
And what was the scene like in Sydney when you were departing?
Oh the scene. People. Around and around and around in barges all day. We were there about a day and a half, two days maybe.

03:16:30:00

They’d made signs, QX4381, so and so, John Smith they’d have up there. John Smith. And somebody would come up and everybody would start to whistle when John Smith would get up and he’d start waving but of course I had no-one there that I knew, no-one at all Sydney. The barges used to come out. You’d see them go along and they’d tip over when they went beside the boat. You’d see them all tipping over like that. Oh they gave us a great send off as good as could possibly

03:17:00:00

be had really.
How many people would have been there when you finally were sent off?
Oh well on these barges. Well there was no-one. We left on a weekday. That was a weekend. I think it was Monday we left, we left about seven o’clock in the morning or eight in the morning, it was early in the morning, but there was very little around then, there was a bit then. But the day previous, in the two days previous were weekends and everybody, even if they had nobody, they knew nobody on, they had to go down and

03:17:30:00

see the Queen Mary and get a special trip on a boat and get around her. Having been on the Queen Mary had great disappointments really. When we got to Fremantle there was the Aquitania and the Isle de France and Awatier, the Mauritania, they were all in our corner, they were all the biggest ships in the world and they could all go up to the quays in Fremantle, and they all had leave.

03:18:00:00

The poor mullets on the Queen Mary sat off three mile out to sea it never went.
You didn’t have leave?
No, no we couldn’t get leave, we couldn’t get leave at all, no. Oh and we were very bitter. The 15th Battalion we said look here’s we’ve – all through the war we’ve been up in Darwin, we’ve been away from the city lights and here was a chance to show us the city lights and we didn’t get there. Bugger the army sort of business we used to say.

03:18:30:00

During that send off in Sydney, during that amazing send off were there emotional scenes?
No I don’t think, not many, not on board ship but there could have been mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters down on the, or wives, down on the boats that might have seen somebody they know that might have got emotional but no, there was no – our blokes I never saw anybody emotional. There was no-one in our platoon that had anybody there, they were all Queensland. You see we were a Queensland unit,

03:19:00:00

we were all from Queensland. We only had one man in the whole battalion had an NX number the rest were all QX – In the end of the war we were all amalgamated everywhere but that’s how it was to begin with.
And what were your thoughts when you finally got onto that Queen Mary and finally departed?
Well I always had the fear that they might find something wrong with me and wouldn’t take me. And when I got on that foot I said here I am I’m on, I’m on my way

03:19:30:00

and they can’t get me off now. I’ll be very good, I won’t go sick, I won’t do anything, if I die before I leave. No and nobody, nobody wanted to get off. I think everybody – because I remember our battalion, before we left Brisbane the colonel, he got up and he said if anybody feels this is beyond them and does not want to go he said they’ll be no nasty things said, they’ll be nothing done

03:20:00:00

but come up to the orderly room after it’s over and put your name down and we’ll see you get your discharge. And if anybody went I don’t know but we didn’t, no-one that I knew went.
So you were pretty happy that you were finally there and on your way?
Well happy might be an extravagant word really but we wanted to go.
Well how would you describe your mood?
Well I don’t know how to describe it except you weren’t bundles of happiness. You wanted to go I suppose. I’m here where I said I

03:20:30:00

would go. I know my chance of getting back mightn’t be good but I’m here where I wanted to go. You’ve only got to read books – Like I read a book a few weeks ago by Patsy Adam-Smith, The Anzacs they call it, describing the First World War. If anybody read that book that was only written after the Second World War, if anybody read that book and wanted to go to war they’re crazy.
You said for you it wasn’t about an adventure but because you felt a duty.

03:21:00:00

Why do you think you felt that duty?
I don’t know. I said in that book that I wrote I said, “I wonder why I felt it a duty.” And I don’t know. I said in that book I felt, that I’d written that I felt it was a duty to go. And why I felt it was a duty because when you looking back now I owed my country very, very little really. I’d never had a full time job in my life and I was willing to work and everything but they weren’t available.

03:21:30:00

When I went to war there was still about twenty-two or twenty-three percent were unemployed. In the middle of the Depression it was nearly forty percent and I mean they were terrible times, they were. As I said I never knew they were terrible times but they were.
Did you have any sense of the empire and sort of fighting – ?
Not, not a great deal, no, no. But I was, we were all, I suppose we were all empire men in those days because the thought of Australia being an independent

03:22:00:00

country in those days was just something that was never even thought of. Yes the King was the head and that was it and we went and –
So you said that the accommodation on the Queen Mary wasn’t that great. Can you describe the conditions on board the ship?
Oh on the Queen Mary it wasn’t that bad. I was on far, far worse I might say but I mean in this breakfast room annexe that we went there was um, against the wall they just built tiers up and they’d have a bunk and another bunk

03:22:30:00

and another bunk. I think there was four of them up there and you just crawled in those and of course we were new, we’d been used to sleeping within sheets and that sort of thing but we didn’t get them.
And what was the scene like on board the ship? How many troops were aboard the Queen Mary?
About eight thousand were on board on her, there was eight thousand. I think we were the only full battalion that was on. There was all, a lot of reinforcements on, there might have been artillery units and those on but we were the only infantry battalion on. Our old colonel he was the

03:23:00:00

boat commander.
And how did eight thousand troops get on during that trip over to the Middle East?
Well you see eight thousand wasn’t a big load. You know before the war was over she was crossing the Atlantic with fifteen thousand on every trip. Fed them two meals a day, feeding them in sessions and virtually sleeping in sessions and you see it was only an overnight, virtually an overnight trip of about forty to fifty hours. And they were getting home or coming –

03:23:30:00

If they were coming from America to the war well they were doing as they were told on their way home. All they wanted to do was get home.
When you were on board with eight thousand troops what was the situation like with meals and so forth?
Oh the meals. The meals weren’t good on the Queen Mary. They weren’t bad, they were a long way better than we suffered on the ship we got on after her. She only took us to Trincomalee in Ceylon, or Sri Lanka as it is now.

03:24:00:00

No they weren’t bad. I tasted rabbit for the first time. I remember on my ship I tasted rabbit and didn’t like it. But the food it wasn’t bad really. We complained. Any complaints the officer would come in and everybody would get up and fifty would yell their complaints. The spuds [potatoes] weren’t cooked or the tea was cold. They always had complaints. Not me I never bothered, it was just a waste of time really.
How did you spend your time on the

03:24:30:00

Queen Mary?
Oh we, we did a lot of Morse practice. And we’d have areas you had to do an hour and a half or an hour’s drill, I don’t know how long it was really, an hour’s drill and physical jerks in the morning. Because we were pretty tough and pretty fit before we went. And I think they even had the idea that we might be going, you know be going straight into action and they were trying to keep us physically fit which wasn’t very good because we weren’t fit. We were three weeks on the boat or a month

03:25:00:00

going over on the boat didn’t do us, it didn’t do us any good. We were pretty soft when we came off.
And how did you all spend your spare time when you weren’t actually doing drills and things?
Well in the army you’ve got no spare time really. If they didn’t have a job they’d make one, they’d invent one. If they saw you playing a game of cards they’re libel to shift you. But we used to play cards. I learnt to play bridge and became quite a good player. We and we used to play bridge a lot and cards – but gambling, there was always twelve games

03:25:30:00

or heads and tails. And into a little corner, somebody would keep an eye on there and then they’re yelling out if somebody came, one of the officers came down. And they never tried to hard to stop it either I don’t think.
You said earlier, you mentioned that the Queen Mary joined those other ships in a convoy. Can you describe that whole convoy for us?
Well they were the biggest ships in the world. It was the Queen Mary and the

03:26:00:00

Aquitania and the Mauritania. They were very big. The Dominion Monarch was there. They all had been first class liners in their day. The Awatea, she was the smallest, she used to run between Sydney and New Zealand. And they’d all been first class. Of course they’d all been gutted and a lot of them had been taken out, you know anything down that was of any great value had been gone. And they were

03:26:30:00

just for troops by then but they only carried about four thousand, three thousand passengers in the Queen Mary and here they’d put eight thousand on and later put fifteen thousand on her.
So from where did you travel and to where did you travel in convoy?
All the way. We travelled from Sydney. We went down to the, in, I remember it was very cold, we must have gone well south because at the time there was a German fleet, a small German

03:27:00:00

fleet was cruising around the Pacific and we had a cruiser with us. I think it was the Canberra. I really forget which one it was – it was an Australian cruiser. And we called at, we went to Fremantle and from Fremantle we went to Trincomalee and we had a convoy all the way. These ships all travelled – you can see them all. They might be a mile and a half away but you could see them all. And we went up to Trincomalee, well we went to Trincomalee and got on smaller ships and a boat

03:27:30:00

called the Indrapura we got on and on the trip from there onto the Middle East.
So what was that like for you that experience of being part of this enormous convoy?
Oh it was, it was great, it was great. Especially when we got to Indrapura, not on, we got on the Indrapura and into Ceylon. We had a day’s leave in Ceylon incidentally. And the bud boys were down there and you’re throwing coins over to see them dive and they’re trying to sell you, it always amused us, they’d be trying to sell you an ivory elephant

03:28:00:00

or something and they’d say how much and they’d say two dollars. And somebody would be silly enough to buy it, but say no not two dollars one dollar and he’d get it for one dollar and the second, as soon as he got his sale how much? Two dollars, straight away the price went up again. But no it was just always part of the game to beat them down.
So that was in, was that in Colombo or – ?
That was only in Colombo we saw that yes. The only time I was ever on a ship – we must have been on the Indrapura for a couple of days in Colombo.

03:28:30:00

And then can you tell us about arriving in the Middle East?
Well yes it was quite an adventure us arriving. We were on the Indrapura which was the filthiest Dutch ship that was ever sailed out of Holland. She was filthy, the food was absolutely atrocious. And she was overloaded and I’ve never heard a person say a good word about the Indrapura. We were camped up in the, in the top deck

03:29:00:00

with you know just – it didn’t rain luckily, luckily but – anyway when we got, that’s by the way, she was a nasty ship to travel in.
No that’s quite interesting. Where did you take the Indrapura from?
From Trincomalee we got on. We went from there to Ceylon and from there to Kantara.
So when you moved, changed from the Queen Mary to this boat what was your reaction?
We thought, we thought this is absolute muck. You know it was, it was a terrible ship. She was a terrible ship. It’s mentioned in our history there,

03:29:30:00

they go on about her. I’d nearly forgotten but it brought back memories. She was a nasty ship.
What kind of a ship was she?
Well she wasn’t small, she was fourteen or fifteen thousand tons which was a big ship for those days and I don’t know she must have been on the eastern shows but she was – I suppose we – No we never travelled on worse where the food was worse. We could put up with the conditions of camping but the food was – and she was dirty, that’s what got us she was dirty. Because we

03:30:00:00

Australians I’m convinced are a very clean race. Wherever they went, if we took a place over from the Italians, the Italians were dirty. The Germans weren’t dirty but the Italians were. If we took one of their positions the first thing you’d have to do is clean it up but not with the Germans. The Japs you had to do exactly the same, they were filthier still.
So on board this ship was a bit of a shock to you was it?
Oh yes the Indrapura was a shock, it was definitely a shock. Yes she was a shock

03:30:30:00

but we knew it was only a fortnight. I don’t know how long it was exactly. But when we got there in the Indrapura a German aeroplane had come over and had bombed and had time bombs in the canal and they had to sweep them out and we were two days or three days in the Bitter Lakes which are a part of the canal, a place where they all go out into lakes. And we were in there for a couple of days until they swept the canal. And then went up to Kantara

03:31:00:00

which is about in the middle of the, in the middle of the canal and we got off there onto the railway lines where the railway line crossing crosses there. And we got on a train there.
What were those couple of days like when you were waiting for them to sweep the – ?
Oh I don’t know we were just for a couple of days we were on the ship and we hated the thing and we were on and we had to stay. They got off and I didn’t get on. They got, they dropped all the lifeboats over and the boys had a row and because it was still, it was right in the middle of the canal, yeah.

03:31:30:00

So you weren’t nervous about possibly running into mines?
It was not the in thing to speak about your nerves of going into action – I might be killed or I might not, I might be lucky or I might be unlucky, no-one ever did that. Well I never heard it because if they did well they’d sort of break down, you know the whole thing would collapse.
Did you think about that though?
Oh used

03:32:00:00

to think about it, I used to think of it. As I said I was a pretty thinker. It was strange the way I grew up from being a naughty boy to a thinking man, but I did think. And there were odd people who used to think the same as I but they weren’t in the majority. For the majority it was a big adventure to them until they got to action they were willing to forget it until they got into action.
Can you tell us about your first impression of seeing the Suez Canal?
The Suez Canal. Well I was

03:32:30:00

amazed, yes it was the Suez Canal and on it, if you go on history that would have been what at Christmas, that would have been the middle of January, and they’d kept a lot of Italian troops and they had them all in big camps along the side of the canal and we could see them. And they’d say, oh this war must be – and look at those blokes over there, they copped them, they’ve got thousands of them and we did too after El Alamein we got them by the thousand. But they were all there

03:33:00:00

and there was odd – Um, I remember I saw my first Hurricane there. It buzzed over, the aeroplane and I said, “What marks were on that?” It was an Egyptian plane and of course the Gyppos [Egyptians] they were – as their ability as soldiers hasn’t been terribly high but they never fought in the war. But it was just another ship. Until we got off and got onto the train going up to where our camp was. And see

03:33:30:00

you move in brigades in the army. There were three battalions, there was the 13th, 15th and 17th with an artillery brigade, battalion behind us. And we’d never met the 13th and 15th. We didn’t know, they were just the 13th and the 17th they were just names to us. And we met the 1st when we got to Palestine, right at Gaza Ridge where all the fighting is – we know Gaza, we knew Gaza and Ramallah and all those places I knew them. We were only there

03:34:00:00

a month I suppose but I knew them all, we’d been there.
So when you arrived there did you have any concept of how long the war might last?
No. But by that time my, my biggest concept is can we win it? I used to think that good heavens how are we going to do that? By the time we got to the Middle East they’d overrun France, they’d overrun all

03:34:30:00

of Europe, you know and they were right down there and they were fighting Germany – no they weren’t fighting Germany, but we were on our own and Britain had forty million people and Germany had eight million and I used to think to myself how could they beat them? And they couldn’t have beaten them. Had we stayed on our own we couldn’t have beaten them. I think that’s quite obvious. I mean in the war the command the Germans had because they took on millions and millions of

03:35:00:00

Russians and very nearly did beat them but and we couldn’t have done it on our own but they never got me but I used to think how can we win this? And then somebody go on and talk about the football match or what’s for tea and you’d forget about it then and you’d live in the future, live in the present not in the future.
So when you took that train up to the camp what were your first impressions of the desert and – ?
Well we left

03:35:30:00

in the afternoon, it was mostly night. Yes it was desert, you crossed the Sinai, where old, if you read your bible, where old Moses went across. And you thought, you never had much thought except – you see you didn’t carry in carriages over there you travelled in trucks. And you were jammed in these closed wagons as many as they could get inside them and all you’d do, all you wanted to do was get out of them, you couldn’t even see properly. You had to fight to get to the door

03:36:00:00

and other than that you just waited until you got out and you got out at Gaza. Where you were met by members from the 13th Battalion who had erected our tents and were ready for our arrival.
So can you describe the camp at Gaza for us?
Well if you can imagine wherever you look you see tents. You look there’s tents miles – you imagine there was eight hundred and fifty of us I think there

03:36:30:00

was. Tents, putting up for eight hundred and fifty men with mess tents and everything. There were tents for miles and miles. And there were 13th, 15th and 17th. The whole 9th Division or 7th Division we were then. And they were, there were tents everywhere and men everywhere and it was definitely a man’s world. The only place that wasn’t a man’s world. The only hospital they had near was the, I suppose I can tell you this, the 8th Army Special which is where

03:37:00:00

all men with venereal disease were sent, it was there.
Did you ever see that?
Oh yes, yes.
So what was that like?
Oh well you never – it was a cross between a hospital and a prison camp. They had a big wire fence around it, all around and we used to march past it quite often. And the boys used to sing the song “The 8th Special will get it if you don’t watch out. If they ever catch you you’ll sing out and shout.” They used to have this rough old song they used to

03:37:30:00

sing about the 8th Army Special.
Do you remember how the actual song went? Do you remember how the song actually went?
Oh I know the first few lines that’s about all I know.
Can you give those to us?
Oh dear I can’t sing. The 8th Army Special if you don’t watch out, if they ever get you then you’ll sing and shout – because apparently in those days the work they did on anybody with venereal disease

03:38:00:00

was pretty rough and ready and very painful, and people who have been through it have told me this, and it’s not anything you’d want to go through twice. But thousands got through it. In our book they give the numbers, there would have been thousands who went through. The Australian troops – you see a lot of people think they were heroes and all that, they were ordinary men and they did some pretty terrible things in their time.
So what were your thoughts when you saw this hospital cross prison camp type place?

03:38:30:00

My thought, it’s not for me. And it wasn’t for me either I’m proud to say. No I won’t say I was a complete virgin in the Middle East but by jove, I was the nearest approach there was. Once I can always remember, I can tell this on the army, I went with a friend of mine Lou McIntyre who was later killed, and his mother showed me – and

03:39:00:00

as we were coming away, we were going back to camp and he said never again Doug, he said never again and I said me too, never again, never ever again. And we were going in the bus and when we got home to Australia I went and saw his mother, he was killed in New Guinea and I had some of his gear and I took it. One of the saddest days I had in my life really but I went up to see her. And she got out all his letters and things and she said, “What do you think – Now what was he talking about when he said I went on leave I decided there were things I, things I saw then that I never wanted to see

03:39:30:00

and do again.” And I said I had no idea in the world what he was talking about but I knew of course but poor old Mrs Mac I couldn’t tell her. No it’s – No, those sort of things I was – I don’t mean I – I wasn’t a prude or anything of that sort, very far from it but I mean I was determined I was going to – after that I was determined I was going to get home, and that was after Tobruk that happened.

03:40:00:00

Where was that experience?
In Tel Aviv.
In Tel Aviv. And what was it about it that made you both say you would never – ?
Well I suppose it was, it was just like buying a shirt business sort of business and there’s no love, no affection, there was no nothing in it, it was just – I nearly spit when I think of it today even. And never again and I didn’t do it again.

03:40:30:00

And I went to Beirut, I went to all, Alexandria and all those places and I never indulged again. And I nearly, I might tell you, for a fortnight or for a week the pair of us, we’d done all the right things but we were scared stiff we might have got something. And I don’t suppose it was anything to be very proud of that we did go but we were in the minority I can tell you.
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 04

04:00:32:00

Okay what were you saying?
I was just saying the Arabs they were filthy, they were, they were a filthy people. When we were doing marches from Gaza, we were only there for about a month I suppose before we went up the, oh up the desert, and you’d go past their tents and on the bottom floor there’d be the pigs and the cows and the goats and upstairs Mum and Dad and fourteen kids would live. You know hear them killing kids in Gaza and they wouldn’t

04:01:00:00

touch them there’s that many of them. I never saw so many kids in all my life. And not that I’ve got any higher opinion really of the Jew either. The Jew in the city to me he was always a hungry money grabbing person. The ones in the countries on the farms in the kibbutzes they were nice people, I got on well with them but the Arabs, the one that always stood in mind, and I’ve always been sorry for them because they came and took their country off them, but they were

04:01:30:00

filthy. Especially around Gaza the place I saw the most was in Gaza.
So you arrived in Gaza and you saw this amazing scene of the tents, what was sort of going through your mind about the experience and what you were going to face?
Oh well as I said I’d always thought of that, I always knew what I was going to face but they were already, we knew they were –

04:02:00:00

for the first time we got our weapons, not all of them, we were about half armed but we got – I saw a Bren gun properly and fired one, I think I fired one if I remember rightly but I saw them anyway. And um, and we knew it was on because they’d gone as far as they could and they’d just run out of steam the 16th. They’d taken Bardia, Tobruk and Benghazi and up to a place called Elajelia and

04:02:30:00

Mersa Brega and they were just stumped. And I’ve often thought they sent them, they sent them across to Greece and Crete and they were stumped before they left – they were tired and – anyway that’s, that wasn’t me, I wasn’t there I don’t know exactly what happened, except it was a disaster. No I never really thought of being afraid of what was going to happen to me. I knew what it was like. Until we got the first little whisper

04:03:00:00

that there were Germans. When it was Eyties [Italians] it was just a joke and I remember writing to my mother and saying oh well they won’t stop us we’ll be in, we’ll be in Tripoli shortly, there’s nothing that the Eyties can do to stop us. But when we got there there was plenty to stop us.
So what sort of briefing did you receive when you arrived there?
We never got briefing of the battalion.

04:03:30:00

We were going up, I was at the pictures with a bloke called John Dolgner, and I always remember this because um, you’ve probably never seen it. It was one of the pictures of the year, 1940, forty-one rather. And I remember him saying that’s a great picture. They called us all members of the 2/15th. In every theatre, I should explain this, but in every camp, brigade camp there was a theatre and a good theatre, a

04:04:00:00

properly built theatre. And we were at this and they called all members of the 2/15th battalion to return and he turned and said I’m going to see that picture out. Whatever happens that’s one thing, I’m going to see the picture. It was about the war and Nelson Eddie was in it who you’ve probably never heard of. And, and I always remember him something he was giving – it wasn’t a good war picture really because it was on the Russian front and a chap came up to him and

04:04:30:00

it was Christmas and he offered him a drink, Nelson Eddie was an officer, offered this bloke a drink and the bloke took it in his hand and when the officer turned his back he smashed against the butt of his rifle because they were just on the point of revolution. But he said I’m going to see that picture. And poor Jack was the first casualty in our battalion, he was killed first time up. First time up the line Jack was killed.

04:05:00:00

So he never went back and saw the – ?
Oh no. No, no, only twenty years of age.
And when did you first meet him?
He went on the train. He wasn’t a close friend of mine but he was a friend. A platoon has got about thirty in it, twenty-eight to thirty in it and he was one of the twenty-eight and we were friends. He was quiet bloke and a good bloke but he wasn’t in the little cluster that I got around with. But he was a good

04:05:30:00

bloke. And you see what makes it very painful, not for me, oh well we’re not there if you want to know before you got there is the fact that two days before I was in B Company and he wanted to get up there and I said I’ll swap you if you want to get – I’m not – I’ve had this place they shoot at you day and night here. And he said, “Yes I want to go up there.” And we swapped and two days later he was killed. It should have been me. Well it would have been me, because he was out preparing a line.

04:06:00:00

Which had the line been repaired it would have been me out repairing it. A nice bloke Jack.
So getting back to when you first arrived when did training start and what did it involve?
Well we did train but we had live training with ammo, we went and shot in the drome. It was really

04:06:30:00

more getting used to our weapons I suppose more than anything else. But there was no this is what you do in certain circumstances, I don’t remember that, but we went out on the drome and out on the range and fired and marched and toughened up because we’d got pretty soft on the way over. And I think there was three weeks to a month, we went up on the first of February I think. And um

04:07:00:00

we worked hard, we trained hard. The sigs did a lot of work. I went to a sig school and –
Can you tell us about that?
The sig school yes there’s an amazing story to that sig school. It happened fifty years later. I was at this sig school and – it was a sig school, the same as – we did Morse and how to pull a telephone to pieces and all those sort of things that we had to learn. And I saw my first 108 wireless set which was the most useless

04:07:30:00

thing that the Australian Government ever made. And anyway I was at this sig school, and that’s it, I was there for about a week I think and I went back, and I went – the first day I went to, I went to a Rat Tobruk meeting here and I met a fellow called Anson, a very nice man who now lives in New South Wales, and he said to me he said, “You know I know you.” I said, “Know me?” I said “I don’t know, where do you live?” He said, “Oh I lived in the west.”

04:08:00:00

He lived in the west and he lived here. And he said, “I tell you where I know you. Did you do a sig school at Gaza?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “I did the same sig school.” And I thought well I must have been ugly then because I’m ugly now. But he recognised me and it was the most amazing – He said, “You haven’t changed much.” And I thought, I thought I must have been crook but still in all – yes he was, it was just amazing that anybody should recognise

04:08:30:00

you in fifty years when you spent a week together doing a sig school. Amazing. He was up here, he’s lost his wife, he was up here a few weeks ago. I never saw him. A couple of them saw him. He was only passing through. He said he was coming back to visit us. He used to live around the place. I used to see him. He was the secretary before me, of the Rats of Tobruk
So in this signals what was the importance of the signals?
Well signals is one of the most important –

04:09:00:00

Now I can really blow my bag a bit. But it’s probably one of the most important things in the army because the only way they – Now in Tobruk from battalion backwards. A battalion’s a thousand, they’re the front line, the 2/15th. From back to there they were all wireless sets. They had divisional sigs men there and they did all the work going back. Any message from the colonel to the brigade it went through there or if we just – we had telephone lines

04:09:30:00

but they were often broken, he’d speak to him on the telephone. But if there were orders for an attack they all came through this, up over the Fuller Phone, but usually that’s because the Fuller Phone could be busted. But forward of that, it was in Tobruk I’m referring to now, it was all telephones. And that’s what made being a sigs a very dangerous job. You spent all you time – because from

04:10:00:00

battalion to company headquarters – a battalion’s about eight hundred men, a company’s about two hundred, a hundred and fifty and two hundred. And they both had quarters and from then on joined out into three sections and they all had telephone lines. And they each – at company headquarters they always had three sigs and your job was to keep those lines in order. And very seldom did it go, did a day go that you weren’t out two or three time fixing lines.

04:10:30:00

And they had to be done. Often you had to crawl on your tummy and get along and fix them. You see they were all lined. Telephones lines were not like you’ve got here up in the air with two lines, they were one line along the ground and earth return, which was an old bayonet stuck in the ground and that made the circuit, the ground made the circuit and it was connected onto the ground. And they were very uncomfortable periods crawling on your tummy there, having

04:11:00:00

somebody using you as target practise and – and how we got out of it alive – well I suppose that’s just a guess. We lost a few but most of us got out.
Doug, can I just pause there for a second? Okay so how much time did you spend training before you went into action?
Well we had three weeks in, or a month in Palestine, at Gaza. And we trained there, we trained pretty hard there and

04:11:30:00

we didn’t miss too much. I was at sigs school and had missed a lot of it. But that’s all we’d done and then we were straight in the train. We went on the train through, across Kantara, the way we’d come to Alexandria on through – to Alexandria through Mersa Matruh and Tobruk where I remember the coldest night I’ve ever spent in my life – our blankets never got up. And then we went up to Mersa Briga and

04:12:00:00

and El Agheila, and we were in the front line. We took over from a 6th division battalion. They took them back and sent them to Greece and Crete. We said, “Have you struck any Germans?” He said, “We hear they’re there but we haven’t struck them.” And “There’s not many,” they said and we believed them, there wasn’t many and ah, and they went and we stayed. But we hadn’t

04:12:30:00

done much training. Really we had not been, we were not a well trained battalion and were not a well armed battalion. Because they had a lot of arms, the 6th Division Battalion – I think it was the 7th but I’m not certain of that. And they left and they took all there captured arms with them, their Fiats and Brigas and those things, machine guns, and they took them all with them of course. And we had these few Brens. But we’d been there for –

04:13:00:00

We’d – I don’t know who was – they’d split the divisions up. We were in the 7th Division really and then because they were making them different they put us in the 9th. And oh we objected very strongly to being the 9th because that was a later division, and we were earlier, we’d joined up earlier and this being in the 9th Battalion – it’s our greatest honour now I might say. But we took it very bitterly being in the 9th but you could do nothing, you could whinge that’s all you

04:13:30:00

could do and whinge we did. And then we finished up in the 9th. Then we got our commander who was more, his picture’s up on the right hand side of that picture, and he was Ali Baba as we called him and his twenty thousand thieves and he was good, he was a very good general. I think if ever a man should have been commander of the Australian forces in the war it was him. But then he wasn’t.
Why do you say that?
Because he was a good soldier.

04:14:00:00

He never had a defeat. He was the only man. He might have been lucky. He undoubtedly was lucky in that respect but all the others – well Blamey [General Blamey] was not, Blamey was at the back, he never had defeats. But all the others at some place or an other, over Kokoda Trail they’d driven them right back and you know they’d had – and in Greece and Crete. And Syria hadn’t been too good either. They’d all had a very rough time and they’d finished on the wrong end of the stick

04:14:30:00

and um, and their generals, I don’t say our bloke was any good, but he was, he was a school teacher and very dry and I remember him coming up to see us one day in Tobruk and Pat [Patrick] Grace a friend of mine, only died a few weeks ago, he said, he was down beside his wireless set, we had a wireless set there, I don’t know what it was doing, and he said, “What’s the 108 like?” And he said, “It’s absolutely – ” so and so, “useless,” he said.

04:15:00:00

And I always remember Moreshead’s reply, he said, “I wouldn’t be as emphatic as that son,” he said, which amused us all, yeah.
Just asking about that wireless set, why was it useless in your opinion?
Because they were no good. They broke down, their range was poor, their tuning was poor, they’re everything was poor. By the time we got to El Alamein – at the end of Tobruk we got eighteen sets which were far better. They were uncomfortable to carry, they were like a square box

04:15:30:00

and they didn’t fit on your back and they were terrible things and we hated them. You ask anybody in the sigs what he thought of the 108 sets and they – the 18 set yeah it was far, far better. It wasn’t by any means perfect but it was far, far better.
I just wanted to ask you about that journey from Gaza up to um, past Tobruk and so forth. What were the most significant parts of that journey?
Well

04:16:00:00

we went by train and we went from Gaza, we went from there to Mersa Matruh. If you know where Gaza and Mersa Matruh are I don’t how far it is from Alexandria – a hundred and fifty, about a hundred miles perhaps. And Mersa Matruh, in biblical stories it’s quite famous and that’s where Cleopatra had her harem or whatever she had. And ah, but it was dirty, the Arabs had been there before and every place was dirty. We only put in the night. It was just a journey

04:16:30:00

by train. And it was – we starved nearly because we only had – If we wanted to something to eat we’d open a tin of bully beef, and bully beef’s about three dollars forty in the shops now, and there were great pot plaques of it and jumps of it wherever you looked then. But ah, then we got off, then we got onto trucks and we went on there by truck, from there to El Agheila or Mersa Brega. And it was rough. We went from there to Tobruk and in

04:17:00:00

Tobruk our blankets never got up, they were on trucks, and cold – I remember Dave Porter and Lou McIntyre, not it wasn’t Lou McIntyre, Stan Woods I think, we camped in this bit of a hole just wide enough we found. It was a peace time town. The Italians and Germans were miles away, a hundred miles away. And the man in the middle was warm but the two men on the outside they were shivering like leaves you know. And one of them would get out and, “What do you want to get out for?” you’d say if you were in the middle. We were taking turns to sleep in the middle.

04:17:30:00

But cold – and you’d run up and down the road to try and get warm. Oh cold. It’s funny how I remember that probably more than a lot of the action we were in, but I do remember that one. And from there we went up to Benghazi. We camped just outside Benghazi. And Benghazi’s – Strangely a lot of, I think they’re she-oaks, a lot of Australian trees along, an avenue just beside – we never went in but we went past it. Went up to, to El Agheila

04:18:00:00

and that’s where our troubles started then.
On that journey what signs of any action did you see?
Oh yes everywhere, everywhere. See they’d taken a hundred and twenty-five thousand Italian prisoners. Yes there was stuff, rubbish and muck everywhere. And they’d taken a lot of big – we were never ever in one but they had taken a lot of big ten ton diesel trucks that the Arabs had and they all had WOP on them and that, and that’s why we always call the – but that stood for

04:18:30:00

War Office Property, that’s what it stood for. But there was scattered rubbish wherever you looked.
What sort of rubbish? What do you mean?
Oh papers and bits of paper. No weapons really because I think the 16th would have been short of weapons too and every time they saw a weapon they grabbed it. And when they got weapons they were collecting them and putting them in Bardia. I saw pictures later, streets of them in Bardia, you know where they kept them, they sent them to Greece,

04:19:00:00

and they were using them there. But we never had them unless we captured them. The rubbish, I don’t know it was just bits of old coats and an odd body still around, nobody had time to bury them and it was – although we generally made a pretty fair chance of burying them if it was possible at all because of hygiene of course.
So they were Italian bodies

04:19:30:00

that were – ?
Italians, they were all Italians and – Oh you’d occasionally see – well there were Australians killed certainly but I mean they were nearly all – and they’d done the first campaign of the Australian Army and had been very, very successful. There was they and an Indian division and they’d done, they’d just – they’d taken forty thousand prisoners in Bardia and thirty thousand in Tobruk. They’d got prisoners everywhere and they couldn’t handle them, they didn’t know how to handle them, they’d never

04:20:00:00

expected it. It was meant to be a skirmish but it was so successful they just kept it going.
Do you remember how seeing, the first time you saw dead bodies affected you?
Oh, bloody Eyties again. That’s all. If it wasn’t Australian, I didn’t see them there, if it was Australian you’d always go and see if his meat ticket was – we used to call the information thing dead meat tickets and if you saw his

04:20:30:00

dead meat ticket was gone you’d know that somebody had given him a map reference on a map to say where he was so they’d come back and bury them afterwards. You see they had groups coming behind and picking them up and taking them back and putting them in proper cemeteries. No they never – In that way I’ve been very tough. Unless things hit me very, very close to myself it’s never sort of worried me. I didn’t like seeing them but I never got upset or anything, badly

04:21:00:00

upset. Two or three of my friends were killed in the war, or not, more than that five or six I suppose and they did upset me but that was only because they were close to me. Others got killed and I, I just took – if I wasn’t there particularly I just took it as a matter of course.
In those early days though when you were travelling along and you said there were some bodies around and people did bury them if they could. Were you involved in burying any bodies?

04:21:30:00

No, never. No. Some of them wanted to because they were – they’d want to because after, particularly El Alamein, they’d want to go where they’d made an attack and they had failed or something and they’d know they’d find some of their friends, and they wouldn’t go and – and I wouldn’t go, I had no wish to go because it was a terrible job. I saw one particular fellow who was a friend of mine, an officer, Basil Bannister, he was dead, he’d been dead about a month when I saw him and oh –

04:22:00:00

The thing I always remember his hair had grown and you know, you know his hair was quite long and it was blowing in the breeze. I’ll never forget it, his hair just blowing in the breeze. Yeah, a good bloke Basil too. Oh well. Some had to go, some had to stop. You see I was one of the very few in our battalion that went the

04:22:30:00

full distance. There’s only fifty or sixty of us who did it I think and I was one of them. I was always sick a couple of times but that’s all.
So as you were travelling through the Middle East there we’ve spoken about your thoughts about the possibility of being killed but did you think about having to kill other people?
Oh. Well that’s the one that I always tried to steer clear of. Yes I did

04:23:00:00

and we did and I used to think but it never affected me. If I saw a German coming towards me and I shot him well I shot him then he couldn’t shoot me. It was live and let live. Live and stay alive I should say. I was very sorry. We liked the Germans. You’ll find very, very few in our division that didn’t think that the Germans were good blokes, they were. They were fighting for their country the same as we were.

04:23:30:00

If he was dead he was dead and he was one less that’s all, that’s all there was to it. No I had no sympathy for them. I’d have sympathy for own chap. I’d see a chap I knew well and I’d see him there, “Poor old Tom.” You know and –
So before you actually got into the action was it something that you’d thought about before that?
Oh well yes it crossed your mind. If you thought about that and things crossed your mind and you thought

04:24:00:00

now I might be killed, it might happen, I might be wounded, I might, this might happen, and you’d go crazy. And that’s what happened to the man who failed. The man who did that, the man who worried about what might happen to him. You had to put it behind you and say well if it comes it comes, if it doesn’t come well it’s alright. No I never worried about that and that sort of thing, not early in the piece. Later in the piece I will tell you a place where it did, it did worry

04:24:30:00

and unfortunately I let other people worry too with it. But I mean that was quite late – I was shattered towards the end of the war, I was, I was shattered.
Oh we’ll talk about that later yeah.
Yes I know.
So by the time you got there the 6th Div [division] had actually left for Greece?
Well they were there, we took over from them.
Oh okay so they were still there?
I remember it was in a bit of a sand dune and they had this big hole and couple of machine guns out of it and they were right in the front line. And the enemy he was

04:25:00:00

really nowhere in sight, he was gone. Mersa Brega was between the sea and a bit of a monument thing in the road. It was only a few miles across. And we were just holding this bottleneck, we thought, until we got strength to go on to Tripoli.
So you met with the 6th Div guys?
Mm. well –
And what was their condition?
Well it would have been rough and tough, they’d been through two months of action – it would have been rough and

04:25:30:00

tough and nasty.
And how did they look when you saw them?
Oh they looked all right. They were very tired, they were tired. I got the impression, I said they looked tired. Because they’d been fighting – they’d taken Bardia and they’d taken Tobruk and they’d fought all the way along. It hadn’t been hard fighting, they’d been fairly lucky, but they had lost – it’s all very well saying it wasn’t hard but they lost a hundred odd killed. And you know they were always somebody’s friend and somebody’s

04:26:00:00

mother or father and –
Did those 6th Div blokes did they talk to you about their experience?
Oh yes.
And what did they tell you?
Oh they said you’ll have no trouble with the Eyties but they said we do hear a whisper. And well we did on the way up there, we weren’t, but the 13th Battalion was machine gunned by a couple of Stukas and they lost, they lost three of four men on the way up by aircraft and that’s how we knew the Germans were there because their planes were there.

04:26:30:00

So you weren’t really too worried about the Italians?
No well nobody was. Well they went in there the 6th Div, what I mean there would have been twelve or fifteen thousand of them, they got seventy or eight thousand prisoners. Well I mean you don’t do that if your opposition’s as good, you don’t do it. Because they’ll stand and fight you and they’ll have as good a chance of taking you.

04:27:00:00

They say they didn’t want to fight. I don’t know if they would have been any good. None of us really wanted to fight. I think they just weren’t much good.
So when you heard that the Germans were getting involved what did you think about that?
Ah then we knew it was a very different story. But what happened is we had General Moreshead and he took over command of the 9th. He was in command of the 18th Brigade and he came to take up 9th commander.

04:27:30:00

And he had one look, he went around the front and had a look and he went back and kicked up an awful noise. He said if you want to lose this division leave them where they are and you will lose them. Because if the Germans attack they’ll take them and he said it’ll be just like picking plums. And they pulled us back to just outside Benghazi there’s a big escarpment behind Benghazi. We could see down on Benghazi, we could see

04:28:00:00

down there. And they pulled us back there and trained us. They armed us a bit better but still not well. We had a good time there. We were there for about a week, I don’t know how long, we were there for quite a few days. But they all had sheep those people, sheep and chooks and all this sort of thing. We used to swap eggs for tea. They wanted tea. And we had the old idea, we’d get tea, we’d use, put it on a piece of paper

04:28:30:00

and it would all dry and crinkle up and swap it for eggs. But they gave us bad eggs so I don’t know who won the argument, you know they won it as much as we did. I can laugh about it but some of the boys said they were a bunch of rogues, I said “and weren’t we?” We were just as big a rogues as they were – except they could use the tea again if they used enough of it. And we were camped there and there was natives and everything sweeping all around in the middle of us. And while we were there the Germans attacked. They moved in an English brigade

04:29:00:00

to take over from us and the Germans attacked and they went straight through this English brigade, [UNCLEAR] rifle and a few more of them. And the next thing they were done, we could see them down in Benghazi. And then they started to work up the mountain and they took the 13th and 15th Battalion away, no 15th and 17th, they left the 13th behind. And the 13th got into quite a stink on this hill – they lost quite a lot of men. And we fell back to

04:29:30:00

Derna. And it was a mad race from then on. They were dropping us off and we were walking and then they’d get a truck, and they were short of trucks, and then they’d take a truck along fifty miles and then come back and pick us up and this sort of thing. And we had another dust up in Derna. We lost our first men in Derna. And from then we went to Gazala – running all the way, we were running, there’s no good saying anything else. I mean I know blokes talk about our fighting retreat.

04:30:00:00

I said we never fought, I never fired a shot. And we got back to Gazala and in Gazala we were um, we just, they sorted us out. When they came up it was a bit of an escarpment, then they sorted out, 15th, 13th, 17th, 48th Battalion they just sent you where you had to go. Because everybody was mixed up, just absolutely mixed up to glory. And we went into all these various places and we

04:30:30:00

connected up and then we slowly fell back in to Tobruk. And it was in Gazala that there was a bit of roadhouse there that had Griffith Tea Is Good written on the side of it. A lot of Australians have got pictures of it, Griffith Tea Is Good. And anyway I walked in this and I nearly fainted. When I walked in this place I was just seeing if there was anything to be found and Colonel Moreshead was there and a few of them were having a conference. I got out as soon as quickly as I could but I never heard anything or see anything

04:31:00:00

and I think they were just as worried as we were too. We fell back into Tobruk. And then we went up and took the lines. If you see in that map, you see where all the forts are marked on the outside of that map there.
So Doug can we just go back to the beginning of when the Germans first invaded or that first battle when you were up on the escarpment.
Yeah.
What did you personally observe of that?
Very, very little

04:31:30:00

because we had gone. You see they were taking them. They tell us some of our battalion was left behind for a little and they saw some of it. They came up and they did the Germans well because they had every advantage. They were dug in on an escarpment, they call them there, it was quite steep and they’d picked their position too and by this, they took, they kept all the machine guns they could get and when the Germans came up they got quite a lot of them.
When you say ‘they’ are you talking

04:32:00:00

about the 13th?
Yeah I’m talking about the 13th Battalion, I think it was the 13th. And they got quite a lot. And the tell the story of the brigadier, he came along and they were, company headquarters or battalion headquarters were waiting to go and they reckon the officers often put on a big play that they’re calm, and I’ll be they’re not. And he went over to the widdle phone and did himself what he had to do and he came back and just sauntered over, he

04:32:30:00

was a big man Murray. And he said, “They tell me that there’s a scrap on around here. We’d better see what we can do about it.” He said “We’ll start marching back here and a truck will meet us.” He didn’t march, he had a car of course. And they were knackered and they staggered off. But they said it was obvious that one of the blokes that was there, one of the sigs that was there, not of our section, a J Section sig he said, “He was as calm as a badger.” You know he said, “Oh they tell me there’s a war on here.” With no

04:33:00:00

concern at all but he was concerned there’s no doubt in the world about that.
So what were you told before you actually left about – ?
We were told nothing because nobody knew anything I don’t think. I rode in the back with a Bruce Strange, a captain I think he was then, he was killed later, I rode with Bruce Strange and our idea was to get back as far as we could as quick as we could until we could reform and that’s what we did. They stopped at Derna

04:33:30:00

to try and stop them – the same as they did at the escarpment, they tried to stop them. And they did they held them up and they bombed – every time they got to the escarpment they used to put bombs on it, you know mines and that sort of thing.
So at what point were you personally involved in any of the actual – ?
No none at all until we got back into Tobruk. I never saw an enemy until I got back into Tobruk.
When you say you were retreating, what did you think about that?
We used to shake our

04:34:00:00

head and I thought – that’s one time I did think that I might finish up in the POW camp. You see in that retreat our battalion they got caught. Headquarter company, my company got caught. But I was attached to B Company at that time and they had a hundred and seventy-five killed, wounded and captured. They were stopped and having breakfast and we were always – the others used to chiack [tease] us as they battalion who stopped for breakfast. They stopped for breakfast and then the Germans came up with a string of cars and took them, a hundred and seventy-five of them.

04:34:30:00

Where did that happen?
Just outside Derna. See there were two roads, you could come up the coast or there was an inline road like that. And somebody, there was a great talk, nobody’s ever known if was true that somebody said, “Put the 15th Battalion to go that way,” well this part of the 15th Battalion to go inland. And when they went inland they ran into these German armoured cars and they took them prisoner. Including the colonel,

04:35:00:00

the 2IC and the padre – I hope and prayed for him. Oh and Major Rosier. Oh they took a lot, they took a lot, took a lot.
And do you know what happened to those men afterwards?
Oh yes we saw a lot them. We see them at a battalion reunion occasionally. I saw one only a few weeks – not this year, the year before I saw one. Yeah they got back and we just accept them as – they were stupid, they were unlucky.

04:35:30:00

They don’t accept it, they think the colonel was a good bloke, I think he led you badly he should never have stopped. Because a friend of mine from Cairns he was with the 2IC, who was, the man who was after Sir Charles Barton. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, you’ve heard of him. You’ve heard of him, well he was our 2IC. And when he said, he said to Vic, Vic Lidden, he said, “Come with me Vic,” he said. And Vic said, “What are we stopping here for sir?” He said, “I don’t bloody well know but

04:36:00:00

I do know this much ” he said, “We bloody well shouldn’t be.” And that’s what the 2IC said, he knew we shouldn’t have been stopping. But I reckon our – you won’t hear of this. You’ll be going to see Gordon on Friday, he’ll tell you that Mullen was a good bloke. I reckon he was an old woman and we were lucky to lose him. He was captured he wasn’t killed, he was captured.
He was the colonel?
He was the colonel, Colonel Mullen.
So you had actually –

04:36:30:00

Um I just want to sort of clarify that. It was part of the 15th Battalion that was captured?
Yeah.
But it was – ?
It was all BHQ [battalion headquarters] and headquarter company yeah.
Right, and you were in which company?
I was attached to B Company when that happened, yeah
And where were you when that happened?
We were fifty miles along the track and going for our lives. They – I’ll give Strange – he had enough sense to know he had to keep going, he never stopped and –
So you said that you weren’t really told about

04:37:00:00

what was happening but you knew you had to retreat.
You see there was never a chance of telling anybody. We were split up all over the place. And we were only a platoon, were a section and we knew well of course a captain’s a very low thing in an army and they didn’t know a great deal that was happening but they knew that we were to reform further back. And they didn’t know where until I don’t think they ever told us they knew where until we got to

04:37:30:00

Gazala. We got to Gazala and then they just sorted us out there and they had plenty of arms there too.
But when you were retreating you must have known that you were doing that.
Oh yes and we weren’t retreating we were fleeing I think I’d say was a better one. And yes it was – as I said I never fired a shot, we never had any action, we never had anything at all, we just went for our lives so we could reform. And a couple of hundred miles

04:38:00:00

it was, it was a long, long way.
So having done all the training and arrived in the Middle East for war how did you, what did you think about suddenly being in a fleeing situation?
Well I was a bit staggered. You know I always thought an army was – you learnt it when you were in a company or in a battalion, an army is run by a certain set of rules and stories and everything like that, that’s how the army’s run. And everything is planned and organised and

04:38:30:00

where we were nothing was planned or organised. You see not only did they take the colonel, they took the general officer commanding, the lot of it, they took him too. And they took the chap who’d up commanded the army, the 6th Div and the Indian who commanded the whole shebang. When they’d gone up they’d captured him too in the same place near where they captured the 15th Battalion.

04:39:00:00

When you hear generals are getting captured you know things are getting pretty dangerous then.
Do you remember which general that was?
No but if you give me time I’ll think, but I can’t think of their names now.
That’s alright, that’s alright. No that’s okay we can talk about that later.
O’Connor was. No it wasn’t O’Connor, no.
So when did you hear about those people being captured?
Oh we didn’t know for a week at least. We got to Gazala and then we fell back into Tobruk. Tobruk was a place that had all these forts,

04:39:30:00

little forts they were all around it and we occupied them and they were good, they had little aircraft – a little bomb proof shelter and a fire power on each end, a little manual place on each end.
During training what sort of preparation were you given for the possibility of being a POW?
None. It never entered my head I’d be a POW. That honestly

04:40:00:00

never entered my head.
There was never any discussion about it during training?
Oh no, no we’d never discuss it. Well I’d never discuss anyway.
So nobody ever suggested how to deal with that situation if it happened?
No, no. Except they did used to, they did give you lectures often, this is how you are to behave if you are, if you are captured, not how to escape or anything, but if you are captured you say my number’s QX7689, Maclean

04:40:30:00

D, private, corporal, whatever I may be and that’s all and don’t even tell them your unit. But they knew it’s all very well saying they didn’t know, they did know, they knew who we were because somebody had talked and they knew who you were.
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 05

05:00:32:00

So what happened after that whole incident of fleeing?
Well we came in there and Rommel, who was leading the Germans, he apparently was a very good bloke and he was a very smart man too. And we’d been in Tobruk about, oh, it was Easter 1941it was. I don’t know the exact date but it was Easter forty-one and the Easter Monday Battle we always referred to it as. And he

05:01:00:00

reckoned we were a rabble, which we had been all the way back and he reckoned he could take Tobruk and he threw a bunch into Tobruk. Well that’s the first time I’d – I was so interested in this that I, that I never had time to be frightened. They um, he attacked the 17th Battalion in front and they were ordered, the first time these sort of orders had been given to let the tanks go, stop the men who are following the tanks but never worry

05:01:30:00

about the tanks, the people at the back would get them. And they came through with about thirty tanks and they were right in the middle of us. But right in the middle of us there was a troop of RHA, Royal Horse Artillery. And they were firing over point blank range with not armour piercing shells with ordinary explosive shells. An armour piercing shell will go through a tank and it will always explode, but it didn’t matter because they were hitting them. And they knocked out nineteen, seventeen or nineteen. There were tanks blazing all over

05:02:00:00

the place. Aircraft fighting overhead. It was just exactly the sort of thing you see of a war in a picture. Only time it ever happened to me. And we were back and we captured about eighty prisoners that had got through on the backs of tanks – they rode in on the backs of tanks. We captured about eighty of them. And that’s if you don’t, anybody in the 17th will tell you, that’s when the 9th won their first VC [Victoria Cross] at Edmonton and it’s on that plaque

05:02:30:00

up there. And um, it was terrible we lost just a few but it was the artillery against the tanks and we were watching and cheering and we were too excited to be frightened I think. And I’ve got a picture there of a Hurricane that came down and nearly crashed on top of me. This Hurricane came down right in the middle of it and I’ve got an awful feeling we might have helped shoot him

05:03:00:00

down too. Because we were shooting at everything in the air. And it was a fantastic couple of hours that. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Just leading up to that, did you have any idea that that was coming?
Well that’s what I thought war was like. I really thought I thought now this you know what war’s like now and I was too excited to be frightened.
What were you doing? What was your job at that time?
Well my job, nothing because they had no troops come through except that

05:03:30:00

company of ours went in and picked this seventy or eighty up. They got the shock of their lives. They thought there was three or four of them there and they got up there and they threw a company out and they fired three or four machine guns over the top of them and yelled out to them through a loud speaker to stand up or a tank did and they reckon these blokes all stood up seventy or eighty of them and they got a hell of a fright when they saw them. But they brought them in and they were, they were very arrogant. They thought it was only a matter of hours until Rommel would come and get them out but he never did of course. But ah

05:04:00:00

but we did nothing because I can’t remember doing anything except watching it. And just watching it. I’d never seen anything like it.
So where were you standing?
I was underneath a hole in the ground. I was looking out over the top but I was just near it all. There were tanks, German tanks a hundred yards away that they were knocking off. And he was right, almost amidst us because if he’d have got in it – they had a habit, when tanks got in, they just run over your, your

05:04:30:00

dugout, you know your little hole in the ground. But they got them before they got there. And the place was littered with tanks. I’m sure seventeen or nineteen, seventeen I think it was tanks there. About half of what he sent in. Because we were lucky that he didn’t have his up. He was chasing us but he was having the same trouble bringing his stuff forward as we had of assembling ours. But from then on we were pretty right then because we

05:05:00:00

were pretty safe. He fell back and left out and we took all the front lines. And the 13th Battalion, or the 17th or the 13th they mauled him on the way out and he’d had enough of – forty-eight hours anyway.
Were you shooting at all at that time? Were you shooting or anything?
Well we weren’t, I wasn’t myself. And I don’t think very few in our battalion were because there was nothing to shoot at, there were only tanks and the artillery was shooting at them. Oh they might have

05:05:30:00

shot a few at tanks but it was just a waste of – they might have shot a few or the boys at anti tank. We had a fellow called, there that carried with us, he had the boy’s anti tank rifle, he said it’s bloody heavy, he said, and I carried it a long way and it’s no bloody good, he said.
What could you hear?
Oh hear? You’d hear nothing except shell because it was just terrific. Machines going up and the planes up in the air

05:06:00:00

flying. There were twenty aeroplanes up on top just having a – Flying all low too, right over the top of us and – and there was tanks and they were firing their guns at our guns and – Oh there was an awful lot of noise but as far as I was concerned it was nothing but noise for that one. I thought well if I never see anything worse than this it’d be easy. Of course that was a joke. But there was nothing, for me except

05:06:30:00

lots and lots of noise.
Could you hear humans shouting or screaming?
No they were all inside the tanks. And these others, the seventy or eighty, they were well over on our right, yeah it would have been our right and they were behind a bit of a fold in the ground where they’d got off and they captured them. But I never heard anything. I saw some of them come in. They were a pretty cheeky lot. I never saw them but they reckon they were pretty cheeky when they came in because they reckoned that

05:07:00:00

Rommel would come and get them you see and they reckoned we were easy I think.
So that was Tobruk?
That was in Tobruk. That was the first hour, that was on Easter Monday in Tobruk.
And that was the first conflict in Tobruk that you were involved in?
Yeah that’s the first conflict I saw. That’s the first conflict I really saw. I saw a few, oh odd little skirmishes but nothing much, shooting at aeroplanes and that sort but I mean other than that I’d seen nothing until then.

05:07:30:00

But it was all to alter from then on.
So what happened after that?
Well what happened in Tobruk from then on that happened – it was a terrible time in the war really. We were in skirmishes all the time, you know patrols. Twelve, fifteen men would go out on patrol and take a sig with them and they’d lay a line and take with us one of those useless 108s or something and ah. And then some of them were

05:08:00:00

recce [reconnaissance] patrols. They’d go out to find everything they could see. Somebody would find out there’s a little place here with about fifteen or twenty men in it, then they’d send out about fifteen or twenty men in – the idea of fighting patrols and do that and take over. And that’s happening all around the front that was happening, every battalion was doing that. It was ah, it was miserable stuff. I was on one of those early in the peace and I went in a few later. And

05:08:30:00

then we thought this is not bad things had got back to a bit normal, he was outside and we were inside. And then he made a big attack then on the salient.
Before we get to the big attack what was some of your early memories of those guards that were sent out?
Well they were, they were a case on going out. If you were on a recce patrol you went out and you find, you try and find Italians, there were a lot of Italians there, and you’d find Italians

05:09:00:00

that were patrols and you’d see what they were digging. They were digging, you knew where they were digging holes so you’d say well that’s where it’s going to be headquarters. And the bloke would mark it in his memory so he’d mark it on a map when he came back so they could shell it. And he’d know where there was Germans. If they got seen the Germans would fire and they’d work out where. Because of this, the way we did it, we were able to draw a line and know exactly where the Germans were all on the outside. And the German was very good,

05:09:30:00

he didn’t, I suppose he reckoned he didn’t need to have to do this to us because he knew where we were, he knew we were in the posts and – but they were, they were small little fights but they were going on all the time, all around the place. And we were having casualties again and again and again. Every night there was three or four killed and to me you know it seemed to everybody so useless but now we

05:10:00:00

know it was very useful really
What would happen in a group with you if you got a casualty?
Well in B Company, I was in B Company, we finished up in nine – I remember my worst experience at nine was – it might have been ten, it was the post, I had to run over to the next post. They had the uneven post were front and the other posts were lying and then the other was there

05:10:30:00

and a dog, a dog let all around the place, and the line went over to go out until this went out. And Bruce Strange said to me, you’ll have to, somebody will have to run it Doug, he said, we can’t leave it out. So Doug said oh well it looks like Doug runs it. And I ran it and I ran all the way over, ran in heavy military boots which is not the easiest way to run. And some bloke, a German, he would have been five hundred thousand, perhaps a thousand yards away, he fired at me

05:11:00:00

all the way. They were skipping up in all directions around me and I ran all the way with the line in my hand. This was, the funny part of this story comes at the other end. And when I get to the other end I said, “What’s wrong with this bloody phone?” Somebody said, “No. Why?” And nobody was on it, nobody was looking at it they were all looking at the enemy. And I stayed there until dark and came back after it was dark. But that’s the sort of thing sigs did more than actual fighting

05:11:30:00

and that was a bad one because he fired at me all the way across.
How long would that have been?
Oh about five hundred yards. I’m guessing now, purely guessing, but it wasn’t far, five or six hundred yards. You couldn’t yell out, you couldn’t hear or anything.
And what could you hear when you were doing that, just the sound of the – ?
I don’t know I was that frightened I couldn’t hear anything except ran as fast as you can. And I could see them spitting up around you.

05:12:00:00

Yes oh yes you were frightened and what made me most annoyed was when I came back there was nothing wrong with the line. I had thought, I said to Strange before I don’t think the line’s out. He said it’s got to be out because there’s nobody at the other end. And well a private didn’t argue with a captain so I ran off and did it and that happened to me a couple of times that, to find people – at El Alamein I saw

05:12:30:00

a fellow reading a book one day and the light was on the switch and he hadn’t answered but it was quieter.
What was the importance of the sigs on patrols?
I beg your pardon?
What was the importance of sigs on patrols?
Well it’s how they keep contact and they – you see everybody – If you were going on patrol – Oh they were really worked out. If you were going on patrol to, say go to the RSL for instance in here, and they work out a defence of fire to fall on

05:13:00:00

the RSL you see. And if you got into trouble you were found out and they and you were in trouble and you’re supposed to be on recce patrol and you ran into a hundred Germans or something, you could tell them exactly where you were and they’d drop an artillery barrage on and let you get out.
So what sort of things were you communicating back to headquarters?
Oh well you’d say to headquarters, you could talk to headquarters. They didn’t always have a sig. A lot of the recce patrols

05:13:30:00

didn’t bother, it’s only the bigger patrols that took them. They were generally looking for a brawl when they took them which made them quite uncomfortable things to be on. The only good thing about it was if there were twenty men in it there’d be one in front and a couple of more and then they’d spread out a bit and wing it and the last man would be ten yards or twenty yards behind would be the sig with his roll of signal wire or wireless or whatever he had, yeah.
And what was your first experience

05:14:00:00

of firing at the enemy? Was that in Tobruk?
Oh yes, yes. I suppose yes I suppose one of those when we were first in there where there was a couple – you see we used to do these, some of these patrols and run when you used to run into them, and especially in salient a little bit later quite often because they were only fifty yards away. They were closer – well it might have been a hundred but certainly no further away, with a great minefield between you.

05:14:30:00

Yes if you saw something you had a shot at it, you always had a shot at something. Well you did quite a bit then. Not a lot in Tobruk but you did at El Alamein you did a lot but at Tobruk you didn’t do too much.
Did you understand the significance of what was happening there?
Well we didn’t. But we have heard since that had he taken Tobruk he would have taken Alexandria and those places. You know he would have kept on going.

05:15:00:00

Well the first time Tobruk held him up. You see he couldn’t take Tobruk. When he was up on the frontier they had their, they moved in the 7th Division and the remnants of the 6th that had come back from Greece and Crete they had them on the front. And they had, oh they had every odd and sod in the world up in the line. And every time we’d have a niggle at them we’d have a niggle at him in Tobruk and every time he had a niggle at us in Tobruk they’d have a niggle at him

05:15:30:00

up there. It wasn’t heavy fighting in Tobruk, there was no – Except when the A, where the 26th Brigade when they attacked, tried to get into Tobruk it was very heavy.
So how long were you in Tobruk then?
Ah we went there in whatever Easter Monday it was, or just before Easter in forty. Until I came out, I was

05:16:00:00

out in Egypt sick. I was sick and was out in Egypt for my birthday in October, fourteenth of October and they were out a fortnight later or three weeks later perhaps.
So you were there for about six months?
Yeah five months, five months I was there.
What are some of the most significant memories of your time in Tobruk?
Well the food was terrible, that’s the first thing. We whinged about that from the day we got there until the day we left, and the food was terrible.

05:16:30:00

Ah your clothes, you had a water bottle a day and that’s all you had. They brought your meals up at night, such as they were, in hot boxes and they brought your meals up but the food was terrible.
What was the food?
A bully beef stew and lunch was always biscuits and bully beef but they tried to bring something up hot. The best you could say is it was hot, it was bully beef stew. And the cooks were doing a rough

05:17:00:00

old job. You know and there were no vegetables and there was no nothing it was just what was there. And goldfish and I’ve never eaten it from that day to this, I refuse to eat it. But they’ll have it here sometimes and they’ll give me something else, I won’t it. Goldfish, that’s herrings and tomato sauce. Oh, herrings and tomato sauce. I was never very fond of it and I learnt to hate it there.
What about the weather?

05:17:30:00

It got very cold towards the finish, it was very, very cold and dusty, dusty. That’s what saved our bacon when we first went into Tobruk. After this attack there were about three or four days when it blew up a terrible dust storm and that allowed us to get organised I think, and we were organised ready for when he came I think. But when he made this attack on, which I wasn’t there of course in the, in the salient which was on our right, where he took about twenty posts and it was very,

05:18:00:00

very vicious the fighting there. Very, very vicious indeed. And we were all spread out behind for the counter attack but he pulled out. Well he didn’t pull out, he stayed there, he held what he held. But most of the fighting in Tobruk as I said as far as I ran into was skirmishing on patrol all the time. But it was thick and every night, every night it went on.
When you said you got organised in that two day

05:18:30:00

dust storm period, what was involved in getting organised?
Well you see even company commanders we had, or battalion commanders, he didn’t know what he had, he didn’t know where his battalions were, they had to sort them out and as he sorted them out he filled them into posts. And he had to organise his defensive shoots to safety in front of their things. He had to defend and we had a very good colonel there, he was wounded later, but he was a very good colonel and ah,

05:19:00:00

Ogle [Robert], and he got on well with us. And he was hard and tough and rough but he was good. And we forgave him for a lot of his faults and I suppose he had a lot to but he was a good colonel and then he had to organise our defensive position, because we were holding a defensive position. Because had he held Tobruk and taken all the troops that he had from Tobruk and could put them up onto the front here heaven only knows where he would

05:19:30:00

finish. The same thing even worse happened at El Alamein where he was so close there and they brought the New Zealanders and the 9th Division down from Syria and we held it there. But Tobruk was – the conditions were – there’s everything and that. And fleas, you never saw anything in your life like the fleas you had. And there’s nothing you could do to stop them. You’d pop stuff on and them and if it was daylight

05:20:00:00

you’d burn an old, you’d burn an old blanket in there and you’d think well they won’t be in here and half an hour later they’d be back and you’d be scratching and itching. Fleas, everybody could say about fleas, flies, rats, mosquitoes, you had them. I don’t know about mosquitoes, I don’t know I’m getting a bit carried away about that, I don’t think there were mosquitoes, I don’t remember them anyway.
But rats?
Oh rats yes. Oh yes plenty of rats.
Well the six months is quite a long time, did you you have any fun times over that – ?

05:20:30:00

No, none at all. You were there and that’s what made it so bad. At El Alamein and those other places they could pull you out and give you a proper rest but there wasn’t an area of Tobruk that wasn’t under, within artillery range of him to fight in. You could fight in – big guns called Bardia Bill. It’s the one time the base lodger, he was the same as we were, he got shot at the same as we did. Because the harbour where all our

05:21:00:00

gears came in it was all under fire. So Bardia Bill it was a big gun, two hundred millimetres it used to drop shells into Bardia all the time. Yes of course he was having trouble, he couldn’t let loose as much as wanted because he was having trouble getting his stuff over from Italy.
So can you describe for me in that six month period, if you can, it might be tricky but can you describe an average day and what would happen from the start to finish?
Well the

05:21:30:00

days were generally – you see when I took about them doing these patrols, they were all done at night. Days you’d get up in the morning, you couldn’t show your head up or you’d get it blown off particularly when you were in the salient. Some of the others weren’t too bad. A lot of the others weren’t too bad. But oh you’d just have breakfast and you’d always keep an eye on – you always had what your listening post out about four or five hundreds in front with the telephone, which you’d have to run out the line for them. And if they could see

05:22:00:00

anything they’d see them coming and they’d let them know and then you were ready for them. But he never made many great attacks. That big attack he made in, I think it was July, it was really savage and then from then on when he had the sail, he built it, he took a lot of the places and he held this half circle in there and it was a terrible place to be because he was only a hundred yards away and

05:22:30:00

the only time you’d poke your head up was at night and we had a bit of an unofficial truce on there, they brought food up for their mob at night and we brought food up for us at night and for an hour or so it was pretty quiet. But from then on it was on just the same.
So from breakfast, after breakfast what would happen in the daytime?
Well there was not much you could do except that you just had to keep watch all the time and there wasn’t much you could do. The sigs were always busy. There were always messages on the telephone.

05:23:00:00

And there was always artillery fire, artillery fire all the time. But we were in, I in particular, I was, and I suppose most of them were too, were in these big cement posts that the Italians had built. And they had a fire step on each end and an underground shelter between them, and you were down there and your were safe. I mean you did get hit if one hit right on it, I don’t know that it would do it any good but we were all right. And the only time we got into real trouble was doing patrols and things like that.

05:23:30:00

And also going down at night and unloading boats and things like that. Because they boats couldn’t come in in daylight they had to leave, they had to leave Alexandria full of stuff. And they’d get, just, they got in lieu of the German aeroplanes about dusk and then they’d ship in at night and you’ve never seen anybody work like those navy blokes did throwing the stuff over into

05:24:00:00

barges – just throwing the bags of potatoes – the only vegetable we got. Chucking them over and “Get out of the road you so and so’s below there!” Because they wanted to get out and get back. And they lost quite a few ships too – they lost the Parramatta and quite a few. There was no actual blood and guts really as in an attack except there and then later on one of the other brigades did an attack

05:24:30:00

to try and take it back and they failed not miserably but they failed. And they had a lot of casualties and that’s where that, that Catholic priest he ran out with a flag and brought in all the wounded and spoke to some of the Germans. And it was very vicious too. But we missed out on that, we never made any real big attacks there but we were in little attacks all the time.

05:25:00:00

So how did you come to get sick? How did you get sick?
We were all getting sick, it was food. It was jaundice. I don’t know whether you know what happens when you get jaundice. No? You go yellow, your eyes go yellow and you have trouble with all your natural functions and you are sick. You get a fluey illness. I remember going to the doctor and

05:25:30:00

we were in a peaceful area, and I went back and he said, “What’s the matter with you?” And I said, “I don’t know.” He said “Well I’ll tell you what’s the matter with you,” he said, “You’ve got jaundice.” And I knew what it was because quite a few had gone. A lot had gone. They reckon if they’d have stayed there another month they’d have lost nearly the lot of them – it was just sweeping the place. And I went down and got on a destroyer and came out.
And what happened then?
I went to a hospital in

05:26:00:00

Alexandria – a very, very flash place. The Greek hospital, step down baths and all that sort of thing. And the difference between it and Tobruk was absolutely amazing. You never got to have a bath. You’d go down for a swim very occasionally and it was, it was, I don’t know what they called it, it was artillery anyway, there was artillery always, they always dropped a few on the beach for practise and –
How did you feel being away from Tobruk?
I couldn’t have been happier.

05:26:30:00

No I wasn’t, I suppose that’s wrong. I was pleased. We knew they were being relieved because the 18th Brigade they had a division in there, the 9th Division, and the 18th Brigade. And the 18th Brigade had been relieved by the Poles and had gone out. And then half another brigade had gone out by destroyer. They brought the destroyer and put them on destroyers and put them on board and brought an English regiment in. And we knew it was happening.

05:27:00:00

Well nobody told us but you know you knew well this is over we’re going now. And if you read history they, the Australian Government had a terrible fight with the English Government, they never wanted to take us out. But the Australian Government said every man had lost two stone in weight and he’d have been useless – another month he’d have been useless in there.
Did morale go down?
No I don’t think morale went down. You see Tobruk was the only – If

05:27:30:00

you – well you couldn’t think back to 1941, everywhere else in the world the British were getting – while we were in there – I always remember the morning the Russians came into the war because we had wirelesses and we could hear them. We had one, we didn’t have, but the divisional sigs had them and they could turn on, they’d flip over quickly when they knew was on and get it. And we knew the Russians came in and we knew, well we thought we’ve got a chance now

05:28:00:00

and that. But how we kept on when you come to think we should have been known we were defeated, we should have known that, but we didn’t apparently.
So with the rats and the fleas and sickness how does morale stay up?
It stayed up because they reckon the division was as good as ever it was when it was in Tobruk. They got in, they learnt. We were definitely raw on patrols when we went in. Some of patrol commanders –

05:28:30:00

And they all got killed unfortunately, all our good leaders, like Lance Bode and Captain Malus [?UNCLEAR], he was the mightiest soldier in the army. He came from Winton and Cobb, another fellow who came out in the same direction – one had a military medal and the other had two of them and they were terrific soldiers. Because I remember one day we were whinging, just whinging for the sake of whinging in a quiet area one day and Bode came in and said, “What are you bastards whinging

05:29:00:00

about for?” And somebody said, “Oh just saying what an awful waste to spend the war in this joint” He said, “Let me tell you if anybody had told me I’d be in action for three months and was still alive,” he said “I’d have called him a liar.” And that’s the sort of war he fought. And he was killed at El Alamein and so was the other bloke Cobb too he was killed at El Alamein too.
Did you lose any friends at Tobruk?
Oh yes. Jackie Dolgner and

05:29:30:00

Geoff Turner our, not Geoff Turner, Geoff Morrison our officer. Gee look I’ve got them all written down you know but I find it difficult to remember them. There’s half a dozen we lost. We were lucky, we got out of it fairly well. We lost a few more at El Alamein but –
Did you go through any ceremony when you lost friends like that?
It was impossible because you were all dispersed, dispersed, dispersed. They got a message through and they said

05:30:00:00

it’s recommended that all troops have been advised that a dispersal is the safest way of staying alive. If they could see us they when they took the salient they took the only high piece of land in Tobruk, and it was just outside Tobruk, and they could see all over Tobruk. And if they say a group of ten men, and they were only ten mile away from, with glass they’d fire a shell

05:30:30:00

at them. So you had to disperse. And if you were by yourself it wasn’t worth him firing a shell at you.
So do you think the term the ‘Rats of Tobruk’ is appropriate?
Well we like to think so. And I think, now a lot of people disagree with me here, I think it was very tough, it was, very tough, very hard and very nasty. But since Tobruk

05:31:00:00

we came out – the only thing that was, we were winning at the time was Tobruk. And we sold ourselves. And I know Gordon for one will disagree with this one because I’ve argued with him before on it, but we sold ourselves and said now we’re something special, we held Tobruk. And we were special too because Rommel he tried twice to take it with full scale attacks and

05:31:30:00

he couldn’t do it. And the more he tried – you know after the second try we were always very confident we could hold him from then on. We were very confident from then on because behind the front line we had the blue, what they called the blue line, that was a red line and the blue line behind. If he had taken the front one he had to come back and go through the same effort again and as I’ve said we’ve sold ourselves because we’re probably the only group that still meet to this day.

05:32:00:00

We had a meeting last Saturday, not last Saturday the Saturday before and we had eight or nine there and three or four widows. And I don’t think there’s another organization does it.
What was special about those soldiers?
Well I don’t know if there was nothing special about us we were just Australian soldiers. And I say any other division would have done exactly the same, except they wouldn’t have had old Ali Baba. You’ve heard the

05:32:30:00

joke about him being called Ali Baba undoubtedly have you? Well, he was Ali Baba Moreshead. Well there was a chap used to broadcast from Germany and he referred to them, us as being twenty thousand prisoners, because there were fifteen thousand Australians and four or five thousand others. Because we were holding, and he said just in prisoner and then they said well Ali – and then he said and they left him there and the

05:33:00:00

only thing they were pleased we were there because we were a bunch of thieves anyway, which Australians had the reputation of being. And so it started on Ali Baba and his twenty thousand thieves. And then he came out and he never lost it really, Ali Baba and twenty thousand thieves. Because everybody, I think everybody has a high regard for, we might disagree on many things but not on him.
Did you have any occasion to work with him directly?
No, no.

05:33:30:00

The only time I ever saw him was the time he told the bloke, and he came and he said, he told him to, about that it was no bloody good, but he used much stronger language than that. And he said there’s no need to be as emphatic as that. Oh he was, he was a good bloke, old Moreshead. A terrible pity him. He must have, he apparently got dementia or a disease where he lost his mind and because I used to see Colonel Ogle

05:34:00:00

years later in Sydney and he said it was the saddest thing in the world. He’d ring up and try and have a conversation with you and he couldn’t. And he was so agile and young and alert and bright
Did he ever address the troops in a big group?
Not then, not then but he did when we came back. Not really then. The only time he really addressed us was when we got up in the Atherton Tableland. We had a couple –

05:34:30:00

not the first time the second time we came back he addressed us up in the Mount Garnett Racecourse which is a beautiful place. But he never addressed us because it was dangerous to get us into groups and when we came out of Tobruk, we were broken up, sent straight up to Syria and we spread all over Syria, you know here and there and everywhere. And he never had a chance to get us in a group really.
So what happened to you after you left Tobruk? How long were you in that hospital?

05:35:00:00

I was in hospital for quite a while, I was quite sick and then I went into a convalescent home. And by this time they’re all out and they put on their great do they put on our battalion. I missed a funny one. This one was the funny one where they ah, they were having a Christmas party and the colonel, I don’t know what Bob Ogle was thinking, he said they could have a bottle of beer each you see and they thought a bottle of beer and they knew there was plenty around, the next door battalion were having

05:35:30:00

as much as they could drink so they thought – So they went up to the officers mess the whole battalion and said “We want beer, we want beer.” And Ogle came out who was running a party in there for the sisters. Well you see the officers always had first connection with the sisters, there was no women there. And they had all the sisters and AAMWS [Australian Army Medical Women’s Service] over from the hospital. And he gave us the beer and then he gave instructions that revelry was to be rung at half past five the next morning

05:36:00:00

and after that he took us for a twenty mile route march – Not me, I wasn’t there. He took them for a twenty-four – and he marched with them. But Tobruk was a nasty place and we fought, we fought. I don’t mean to say that I had a cook’s tour in Tobruk because I didn’t. I went out on a several of patrols and a couple of times he had his skirmish patrols that he attacked us and you were under artillery fire

05:36:30:00

all the time. There was artillery fire all the time. Wherever you were he could reach you with artillery. But I was pleased to be out of it. Again a lot of people disagree, I reckon the ruck was no worse than El Alamein and we lost a lot more at El Alamein too than we did in Tobruk. We lost about seven hundred in Tobruk and lost well over a thousand at El Alamein.

05:37:00:00

How long did it take you to get well and who nursed you back – ?
Oh yes well I came out and I went to a convalescent, in the hospital. They gave us leave and of course they gave you a fat free diet. I remember writing to one of the boys in Tobruk and he said they laughed when they got the letter. I said, “I’m sick to death, I wish I could get a tin of bully beef.” And they thought that was funny. But anyway they gave you a fat free diet and then they sent me to a convalescent

05:37:30:00

camp. I was there for about three weeks. And then always in the army they had a re-echelon that they call where you went back to this re-echelon then the first time they get a group of you they sent you back to your battalion. And I was in this re-echelon and I was in there for a month and they wanted me to stay there but I wanted to get home. It was a funny thing a place like your platoon. I knew nobody. I was in the re-echelon and I didn’t know a person there. Well I did, they left

05:38:00:00

half a dozen but I didn’t know them well. And then I went back there. I got back in January I think I got back again. It was about October and I didn’t get back until January. Just before it was time to get up to Syria.
What did you miss about the guys?
You miss your friends. And you loved them really. You did.

05:38:30:00

Plenty of them I loved. Not plenty of them, a few of them I loved.
Well I guess you go through quite a big experience and you’re together –
It learnt you that there was an experience of life without women, completely and absolutely without women, from the time we went up to that desert or from the time we left Australia until we finished up back at Palestine, there was no women. As far as I was concerned there was still no women. But I mean – but that’s what it was. The only thing was a man was the only communication you had so –

05:39:00:00

and there’s some, some you did learn to love. You learned to know all about them. They knew all about you and you knew all about them – where you came from, what you did and what you thought
It’s like brothers.
We were like brothers. I think I was closer to Lou McIntyre my friend that was killed, that I was closer to him than my own brother because my own brother we fought like Kilkenny cats. No we used to fight but yet I became

05:39:30:00

very, very good friends with him after the war. And the funny thing about it, I forgot to tell you, when I was up in Darwin I did strike him up there, he was in the air force in Darwin. And we were in camp and they had good, good areas there. He was a sergeant and he used to pin three stripes to my arm and over I used to go over there to get into the sergeant’s mess all the time. It was good in Darwin that part.
How long did you hang out with him in Darwin?
Oh he was there for about

05:40:00:00

two months. He was still there when I left. He got out of Darwin, he was very lucky, he got out of Darwin about three or four days before the Japs bombed it. He was very, very lucky. And he was one of these blokes he was always – He didn’t like the RSL much because they wouldn’t let him join it in the old days because he hadn’t been overseas. But he had been. He told me that he went Ambon, because we were all good swimmers. He was a good swimmer and there was a plane that had shot down, come down

05:40:30:00

in Ambon Harbour and they wanted someone from the air force to go over and see if there were any bodies in it and he went out and he swam out to this. That only should have put him in. He was in a war service zone again when he’d gone to Ambon. That’s before Darwin had been bombed. But he went to his death poor Jim – although he was very proud of the part I put in it. I was district secretary and I was a Queensland vice president for two years. A country

05:41:00:00

vice president for – when I came to live here it was impossible to carry on I had to leave it.
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 06

06:00:32:00

Now Doug you were in hospital in Alexandria when we left, how did you end up in El Alamein?
Well after hospital I went through the convalescent depot and the reinforcement for our battalion and I finished up, we finished up Syria. We went to Syria which was a very interesting a place. If you want I’ll tell you a little about it.
Sure.
It was a beautiful place.

06:01:00:00

The Syria mountains up there are beautiful. The people on the coast are entirely different to the ones up in the hills and I quite enjoyed every day we were in Syria. We had all the wogs [southern Europeans/Syrians] in the world to do our work, to do our washing. We never did our own washing or anything there’s was always something being done. Quite a few of them spoke English too and there was nothing of any great importance that we did there. We were supposed to be digging defensive places in case the Germans came down through Turkey.

06:01:30:00

But we felt by this time that his chances of doing that were pretty slim. But we had a good time in Syria.
Did you catch up with the company from your battalion that you’d been with?
Oh yes I went back to my unit but I didn’t go back to the company I went back to my battalion, back to battalion headquarters, the company headquarters. And we were in Syria mostly as a platoon, the full thirty of us. And we trained, or retrained I should say which bored most of us to tears. And we had a new

06:02:00:00

officer and we used to tell him – He’d tell us a great story and we’d always wait until he’d finished and say that’s not the way we used to do when we were in action. We were letting him know, we were awfully cheeky letting him no that he hadn’t been in action.
Apart from jaundice were there other illnesses that people were suffering from after Tobruk?
No I don’t think so. The only thing I know about was jaundice – a lot of them got jaundice.
Were there any signs of anyone having shell shock?
Oh yes, yes. Not many but odd ones yes,

06:02:30:00

there were odd ones – and they were very sad too.
What sort of – ?
You know to see a man, a good strong man, go into a jibbering wreck. It was it was a very sad performance. Most of them used to take it as a matter of course but I was always very, very sorry for them because I used to think perhaps some day it could be me, perhaps some day it could be me. But it never was luckily but there was quite a few. Not many really but there was some, yes.
Anyone you knew or – ?

06:03:00:00

No I don’t think so. Apart from shell shock there as one chap – I was just reading while you were away – there was one chap I knew and he was a man with a beautiful body and everything and they used to get him every time they had flash parade around the place they used to pick him on the go. And anyway I remember he was down in this too when the Governor General came to see in the Atherton Tableland. He was picked and there was name there and somebody put an arrow mark

06:03:30:00

beside the man with the beautiful body and a craven heart. I always remember that. Yes it was very sad though.
How did most of the troops react to those blokes who got shell shock?
No they never liked them, never like them. I used to take them as a matter of course but there weren’t many of them, they were pretty few. But odd ones and I can think of three or four that had to be sent home, sent

06:04:00:00

away. They were useless because it’s an awful thing, fear is something that can grow in a group. With one man showing it they’ll all start to show it and they used to get rid of them and send them back to base but there wasn’t very many of them.
When you were under artillery fire you were under constant artillery fire. Did people have injuries in regard to their hearing or – ?

06:04:30:00

Yes me, that’s why I’m a little deaf, they reckon it was from the artillery fire and that was one of the great things if you were in the artillery unit in a brigade you can always beat them for a pension by telling them that you’re deaf and what not. I’m partially deaf, I’m hard of hearing and they pay me a small pension for it.
Immediately after Tobruk when you were in hospital in Alexandria

06:05:00:00

did you have any sort of obvious effects then?
No. No I seemed to get completely better from that. Yes I wasn’t sick at all. There was a dose of measles ran through the place when we were up in Syria. Because I remember one time, I always got myself an easy job in the orderly room when we were in camp and I was sleeping in the orderly room and it was bitterly cold and I went up there was all these men who’d got away with

06:05:30:00

with measles and there was this string of blankets up on top and I thought well anything would be better than the trip down – than this so I went and got a couple of blankets down. But I never got measles and my mother tells me I’d had it when I was a child so –
So after Syria where did you go from there?
Syria. Well we were marking time and we all thought we were coming home, we were quite sure we were coming home. We were just filling in time until the boats came and everything. Like well,

06:06:00:00

you wouldn’t know the history but they drove the enemy back almost to Tel el Eisa again and when he got there and our lines got too long and his got very short he attacked and drove them right back. And on the way back he took Tobruk, he took everything in front of him and he got to Tel el Eisa and ah, which is fifty miles outside Alexandria. They were that scared in Alexandria everybody was

06:06:30:00

fleeing that weren’t friends with Germans – a lot of them were. And the New Zealanders were in um, a whole division were in Syria and so were we. And they ran us down and everybody’s was still saying we’re going home, this is the opportunity, everybody and the – and I thought that’s balarkey [nonsense], but it wasn’t and we finished up in Tel el Eisa or El Alamein, whichever you like to call it, and this time it was real, like First World War

06:07:00:00

war. A front sixty miles long, here’s the Germans and here was us, about a mile between us. It was a very savage position.
Can you tell us exactly what happened there from the time you arrived?
Where at El Alamein? Well we carried on, we were, we were in reserve and one of our battalions got into great trouble, the 28th, and they moved us in, to take us in to try and get them out of their trouble but they lost over half,

06:07:30:00

half the battalion. And it was um, it was too late we couldn’t got in. Our colonel said you’ll lose another battalion if you go in so we didn’t go in and it was a very sad thing because the battalion, the 28th, one of our, well one of our sister battalions from Western Australia. And they were depleted. They had to pull them out of the line and reform them and everything. It was a ghastly thing. They had about four hundred and fifty casualties.

06:08:00:00

And from then on took a place in the line. And the German was probing and looking for a place all the time to come through and it was pretty constant fighting all the time at El Alamein. It was very bitter and very nasty and it was two clear open spaces between us and artillery fire was very, very heavy and it was rather a terrible

06:08:30:00

performance I thought.
What do you mean a terrible performance?
Well it was nerve wracking I suppose is the way I mean. Oh no I don’t say I nearly broke, I didn’t but I mean I was, I was very much afraid that the future looked pretty, pretty grim. And just then you’d looked at things still going on around, and that was the beginning of, no the end of 1942. The Philippines had fallen

06:09:00:00

and Singapore had fallen so the Japs seemed to be in the lead everywhere and the Germans were all on the, just on the lift up to Moscow and the whole world looked shocking. And yet in three or four months it turned completely around.
So you got to El Alamein when exactly?
About June, July, middle of the year.
In 1942?
Forty-three it would have been. Would it have been forty-three or forty-

06:09:30:00

one? No it would have been forty-two.
1942?
Yeah.
So what did you personally do when you arrived in El Alamein?
It was stationary warfare, we were almost in front of each other. And we built very, very – Our main thing was to build up and build up – If you read history you see where America sends us three hundred tanks and we were just building up and waiting there and there was an armoured division coming from England and we built up and

06:10:00:00

held the fort as well as we could. We made one big attack ourselves, our battalion, a rather nasty affair and –
Can you tell us about that big attack?
Well we went, and it’s known as Bulimba, because it came from Queensland, we were all Queenslanders and there was about four hundred of us took part. And it’s a sad story to go back to. We had a hundred and seventy, a hundred and eighty casualties in two hours and I’ve never seen such

06:10:30:00

carnage anywhere. It was all in the front of a few hundred yards. But we hit Italians first before they brought Germans up and we had a lot of enemy dead. But the plan was to break through the German lines which was absolutely impossible, we could never have done it.
Can you tell us what you did during those two hours?
Well those few hours we were there, we went in at five o’clock in the morning and we got out at about ten o’clock. Well there was Germans –

06:11:00:00

There was plenty of fighting and plenty of shooting. If you see I’ve got a book over there. There was one man who won the DCM, he should have got the VC. There’s a picture painted by Ivor Hele of what he did. It’s rather a ghastly looking picture. But we just fought until they said – and they nearly broke our major, our colonel got very badly wounded and they sent a major up to take charge and he said, “We’ve got to get out of here or we’ll lose the lot.” And he got us out

06:11:30:00

and they held him back for promotion for two years after that and –
I know it’s obviously quite painful to remember some of those things but what was your own personal role during that battle?
Well I carried a wireless. By this time we had eighteen sets which were far better than the 108, and I was with a major, Major Suthers, he came from, there’s a great family of Suthers from around the Townsville area. He was manager of Proserpine

06:12:00:00

Mill afterwards this fellow. And I was his wireless man and I was following him around. And he got the order to came out and he said, “Now out you go in twos and threes.” And we just went out in twos and threes and got out a mile back to where we were reasonably safe. And the main story when he gets out an officer comes up from one of the other battalions and said, “Rod what’s going on up there?” He said, “I’m afraid we may have left somebody up there on the barrel feature.”

06:12:30:00

And he said, “Come on Rod we’ll go and have a look.” And Suthers turned to me and he said, “And you’d better come, Mac.” And I got on that and we went up and it was a scary ride up to the top and we got up to the top of this bit of a mound and we looked over the hill, and I can always remember it, and I thought there was fifty but they tell me there’s was fix or six German tanks coming up there and they had guns about this – ninety and fifty yards away. And we get out in a hurry and they peppered us all the way back. But it was the most frightful couple of moments that’s I’ve had seeing

06:13:00:00

these tanks – all of a sudden going over and seeing all these great big tanks lumbering up. There’d been an attack on the flank and they were trying to persuade him that we could attack too and splitting his forces. Whether or not it worked I don’t know. It was a terrible night.
How many troops on both sides were involved in that particular battle?
Well there was about four, four hundred, between four and five hundred of ours and I don’t know how many – they didn’t try

06:13:30:00

and, supplement us with more troops but the Germans did, they brought in more straight away on theirs and if you were attacking in one place here, there’s all the artillery from over here and over here all firing on you. The artillery fire was absolutely horrendous. That’s my opinion, I never did any of the actual fighting that day, I was with Rod Suthers and he was wandering around and he didn’t seem to have a fear in his body and I had to follow him and ah, with

06:14:00:00

the wireless on my back and it was not a happy moment I can assure you.
What was the importance of carrying that wireless that day?
Well he had to have communication with battalion headquarters. Where first of all Ogle was there and then he was wounded and the major came up, I’ll think of his name shortly too, but anyway he came up and he to get things. And he, the major had advice to the rear right back to where

06:14:30:00

to where Moreshead was watching it but he, he gave the order to get out. Which was good because heaven only knows what would have happened if we hadn’t.
When you look back now on that day, that particular battle what is it about that day that you remember most?
The carnage. It was carnage. Friends captured you’d known for whole – you see nearly a half – well we were over a third

06:15:00:00

casualties in a few hours, just a few hours. It was absolutely shocking. And you’ll never interview a man from the 15th that doesn’t remember if he was there. It was probably our worst effort of the whole war. It was just shocking. I think we were all very much afraid and we were pleased to be out and I had the misfortune to have a double issue of it because I went back again with Suthers and this other officer in a carrier

06:15:30:00

from the 17th or the 13th – I don’t know which one it was from.
Why was that particular battle so bad? Why was that?
Well it appears that right over in the flank – at El Alamein you ran from the sea at El Alamein on one side to the marshes right on the other side like a desert where it was impossible for anybody to cross – it was soft and thing, they couldn’t take tanks. It was sixty miles. And Rommel had made an attack right on the flank of this, right over

06:16:00:00

where this soft stuff was, this quagmire stuff was. And the idea was to stop him. Our going through – the idea was for us to go through and get into the reserves he had at the back and do them over but it was absolutely impossible. It took three divisional attacks through the Battle of El Alamein to do it and how a single battalion was going to do it heaven only knows. Well it

06:16:30:00

possibly worked because the German attack on the flank was a failure. And ours, well I don’t suppose ours was exactly a failure, we killed a lot more Italians and Germans than we had killed but still in all it didn’t do too much towards winning the war. But the one thing I think that most men of the 15th are proudest of is Bulimba.
So why, why are they proudest of that?
Well because the battalion did so well I suppose. They did so well, they took

06:17:00:00

the place. We were going up for the barrel feature, we took it and then we had to get out and leave it because we had no chance in the world of holding it. They were sending a dozen tanks through with us. But they ran over a land mine, a few land mines and they got blown up, and it was just impossible for us to hold the place. And he would have come around on either flank and we’d have been cut off so – they got out which was just as well.
So at the end of the day what happened,

06:17:30:00

where were you at the end of the day?
Well we went back and see we only had to go back to where our lines and then we got nothing but the artillery shells, they weren’t bad there. They pulled us out of the lines for a couple of days rest. We went down to the beach and had a swim – we were right on the sea. Then they just shot us back in the line, that’s the way they did. But they said it was better doing that than leaving you out and you’d think about it and we’d be nervous wrecks.
What about when you had those couple of days

06:18:00:00

having a swim and stuff, did you think about what had happened?
Oh no, I can’t remember really but we just went back and did the job and held our positions. It went on – we took on patrolling. There was heavy patrolling in that mile distance them, the patrols, and we patrolled much more than the Germans did.
What happened to all those men that were killed on the battlefield that day? What happened to their bodies?
Well that’s a funny thing. We attacked at the El Alamein Battle over the same country

06:18:30:00

and after the war, after the El Alamein Battle was over which took about ten days, we had burial parties that went and picked them all up. They were all lying everywhere. The Germans had buried that were nearest their line but they couldn’t bury them because we’d have attacked them and they’d have attacked us had we’d gone in and to bury them – so they left lying. Now a man and I, we went out looking for a fellow. He said he wanted to find him, a friend of his, and we found him alright. He was the fellow I said his hair had grown, it was quite long, it was blowing in the –

06:19:00:00

I can still remember it blowing in the breeze. Oh it was a terrible day that one.
You’d been in Tobruk and Tobruk is famous really in Australia and all over the world for what you did there.
Yeah.
But how did this battle compare with your experience in Tobruk?
Well again you’ll find different, different views and I always reckon El Alamein was worse

06:19:30:00

but many men, and you’re interviewing one I know of and he’ll tell you the other way around. But that’s just a natural opinion but I, they were, they were both pretty terrible. The country was so horrendous. It’s a pitiful, horrible country that desert, it’s got to be seen to be believed. It’s out of this world and even to go there is difficult enough, although they reckon Tobruk’s very different now. I’ve spoken to men who’ve been there and

06:20:00:00

there’s, it’s a big oil centre now. And now we’re friends of Qaddafi [Libyan head of state]. If I was a bit younger well I might have got back there again but I probably never will now.
You said earlier that you sort of nearly broke that day. What, why was that? What do you mean by that?
What that I personally nearly broke? Oh I don’t know if I nearly broke but it really, it really affected me. Because every time I looked around there was another chap gone, another one gone. And I knew them,

06:20:30:00

And I knew them, I’d been with them all the time. I was attached to A Company at the time and it was just – they were just everywhere. You imagine a little space between here and a bit further than the bitumen road with a hundred and seventy dead and killed and wounded lying around. And you knew the Japs, not Japs, Germans and Italians lying there. It was just carnage that’s what it was.

06:21:00:00

But it did it’s job I suppose. They tell us it did its job so I suppose I’m not to argue, but it did it and – but we lost a lot of friends. I had a great friend that came from Cairns, Nelson Favell he was killed that day, yeah.
And other friends, were there other friends that you watched die that day?
Oh yes Paddy McGill and I don’t know I’d have to look. I’ve got a list. There was a hundred and

06:21:30:00

fifteen through our platoon. Another chap and I worked them out one day and we got to a hundred and fifteen. There was half a dozen were killed. It was a terrible day.
How did that affect the morale of the battalion?
I’d say it affected them no way at all. The Australians were very good, they came back, they gave us all the reinforcements they had to bring our units up to something like strength.

06:22:00:00

No I think we were just as good because El Alamein followed that and that was the first of September. The 23rd of October was El Alamein Day and by that time we’d been in the line again, out for a rest and been in the line again and we made our attack and we took all our points and –
So it didn’t seem to affect the morale of the boys?
No I don’t think so, I don’t think it seemed to affect their morale. They just came back. Everyone told us how well we’d done and all. Well I suppose we had but just looking at it

06:22:30:00

sideways you wonder how well we’d done but it was a –
What do you think gave you the strength that day to get through that?
I’ve thought of that one a thousand times and I couldn’t answer it because I could no more do it than fly to the moon now, I couldn’t, I’d say I’d be almost afraid of the dark now. No I don’t say I wasn’t afraid, but I did what had to be done. And the fact that I was, I had on that particular day

06:23:00:00

which was probably the worst day of the war for me, I was following Rod Suthers around and he said, “Come on Mac we’ll go and see how Seven Platoon’s doing.” And we’d go and see how Seven Platoon’s doing. And we’d walk over and there were shells flying in all directions but he never seemed to worry so I padded along behind him.
So the people who were killed that day were they killed mainly by artillery fire or – ?
On no there was everything, artillery fire. There were a couple, a few machine guns around. Oh no there was everything going.

06:23:30:00

It was the nearest approach to that battle that I talked earlier about in Tobruk, it was nearly like that except there was no aircraft. Well we did have aircraft overhead but the Germans had none.
And what was the sound like that day?
Oh horrendous, out of this world. You know there was everything firing. Crashing of shells and yeah bad.
And what about from the wounded afterwards?
Well we picked everybody up. Well I don’t do it because I was carrying thirty-five pound of wireless.

06:24:00:00

And ah, but they picked everyone up, they got nearly all of them back but not all of them. A couple of them got captured and wounded and – but the Germans were very good. If they captured you wounded you were looked after, you knew that, you knew that they had a chance, but we never got them. They had carriers with us and they were the Brendan Carriage, you know what they are, you’ve seen them? And they’re like, well I suppose a tank without the hood on, they’re just like a about that high and all

06:24:30:00

all armour plated. They’ll only stop rifle fire going, hitting you. And they’re very fast. They do forty-five mile an hour and they were going around picking up all the wounded. And that’s, several of them, a couple of them died I believe on the way back because all they could do was jump out and throw them in the carrier, because they couldn’t spend any time out looking after them, but they were a bad show.
So after that battle

06:25:00:00

you had a couple of days rest and then you were back in the line again.
Back in the line again yes.
And can you tell us what happened for you?
It was a sector where we went back, back in the line. We had patrols. I don’t think I went in any, I can’t remember, I don’t think I went in any but we had plenty of patrols. One of the members of our sig platoon, Bill Knight, he went out on one and he got killed. And ah, but it was a pretty stationary, quiet thing. And then they pulled us out again

06:25:30:00

and when we were out they did big night manoeuvres and the only time they ever really planned a battle was the Battle of El Alamein. They, Montgomery was our general and he planned it to the last inch. Well I don’t think it worked but still it was all planned, you knew exactly what to do. And Moreshead was very good he said, “I want the – ” he said, “I not only want the officers to know what’s going to happen I want the men to know. So if anything goes wrong to an officer the men can say that’s the place we’ve got to

06:26:00:00

go for, it’s there and if the officer’s gone well I’ll take it out.” Which Australians thought was pretty good at I think. It’s one of the things that made them better, better soldiers than most.
So what were you told about what was going to happen?
Oh we knew. The idea if his troops would go just at the same time they’d attack right over the other side of Africa from, they’d brought the troops from England and from America. And the idea was to come from one side of Africa and we from this side, the Africans.

06:26:30:00

It took four months but we did it. It was about three thousand kilometres but we did it. And they told us to do our thing, we were to fight them, we were to defeat them and they were to go and we were never to let them stop running, which we didn’t. It was a very bad night. We had a new colonel after the other one was killed, was wounded, he was killed and, and he was a good bloke too, Magno M – A – G – N – O. Funny how they called it Magno.

06:27:00:00

And – I never met knew him. I met him. The only time I met him we were in a hole somewhere and I was in this little sig office where I had the telephone and the wireless and, and he came bowling in and I said, “Watch that bloody light.” I had a candle inside and I looked up and it was the colonel. He said, “It’s alright corporal,” he said, “I’ll watch it.”
What did you think about going back into battle after that Bulimba conflict?
I didn’t, I didn’t mind going back in the Middle East –

06:27:30:00

no I didn’t mind going back in the Middle East because we were all because everybody, nearly everybody over there was a combatant soldier. No I didn’t mind going back. I disliked a lot more in Australia because I felt that, well there was no equality in sacrifice, that’s all. They should have brought, taken twenty-five percent of us out and put twenty-five percent new troops in but they never ever did it, they – and the man in the back – I was reading that little article I wrote there – I said

06:28:00:00

the chap in the back he could sell all the petrol and, as they were doing too and make no mistake about it, petrol and food and stuff. But we were in the front, we were at the last end of the line and that was us always that was missed out. But no I had no qualms about going back in the Middle East but back in Australia I did.
So despite that dreadful carnage you had seen and despite losing all those friends and so forth you were still okay about going back into

06:28:30:00

another battle?
Yeah well the position was still bad and it had to be done. It was often said the 9th Division was never the same fighting unit back in Australia as it had been then and it’s probably true. But then we were – we fought very well, we did remarkably well, all the generals gave us the highest marks for our work at El Alamein. We made about five or six attacks. Nearly every night someone from the 9th Division was attacking and –

06:29:00:00

So can you tell me about your own personal involvement in the battle in El Alamein?
Well as I said I was mostly carrying a rifle, carrying a wireless but I always carried a rifle which we had to use on occasions. But nearly everything was at night and we, we got into his lines. The idea first of all was to go straight through his lines and let the tanks go through and the tanks could get amongst his trucks and everything at the back and blow them up. Well that failed because he had

06:29:30:00

his divisions there had about a ten mile, oh I don’t know how far it was but it was a long way, a wall heavily defended. And then we started to get attack after attack at night. And you used to run into small groups of Germans – well we ran into on lots on occasions. One night there was a hundred wounded in one place, wounded and dead Italians we ran into. But

06:30:00:00

mine was mostly carrying, carrying a wireless. But we got into a couple of places when we were attacked very heavily and you were just an infantryman then, you just fired, if you saw something move, even if you saw something, if it was only wind or something, if you saw you fired at it. And I tried to think, never tried to think that I certainly hit men but I almost undoubtedly did but –
But there were no instances

06:30:30:00

when you could be sure that you had?
Oh in Tobruk there was one night there was, but no – and in El Alamein I suppose I’d have to admit that yes I did.
And you could see that you had hit somebody?
Yes but you see it had to be done. Wars are terrible things you know. You people have no idea what they’re like at all and it’s remarkable how well I’ve come through it really but – but yeah

06:31:00:00

I could never do it again. Even at twenty-one I couldn’t do it, even the thought of it would frighten me if I knew what was ahead of me.
What was the hardest part of that experience in the Middle East?
Oh well undoubtedly losing friends. There was one fellow, a DCM, when I told you about that fellow that I said his hair blowing around, he and I were together and then they dropped a few shells around us and we lay down, and he was a big, heavily built man,

06:31:30:00

he said, “I’ve been hit.” And I said, “There’s nothing been near here.” He said, “It must have gone right over you.” He said “Because it’s on your side.” I was lying down and he wasn’t a little fellow he was a big bloke and it just hit him on the side. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t bad, he never went out and he was killed two days later and a shell just lobbed and his thing went. Well it was a dud, it lobbed between my hole that was here and his hole that was there and lobbed and it went straight in down like that and it just went straight through him. Christensen, he was a good bloke but

06:32:00:00

they were all good blokes I’ve said and they were too, they all were good blokes. But I did, when things were tough and you fired you were an infantryman but usually you were, your job was to keep communications open and worse still to make sure the lines were open, no matter how heavy it was you had to go out and fix telephone lines. They were just – well like, oh not as thick as that thing there but all you had to do,

06:32:30:00

we had to knot, we used to scrape them off and join them together and it was a pretty miserable job when somebody was firing at you I can tell you. And you had no, no chance of firing back you just had to the job.
What were your thoughts about the Germans?
I had nothing – No the German he was doing his job. I was not so keen on the Italians and I shouldn’t say that because my daughter’s married to one but –
Did you have any sympathy or

06:33:00:00

empathy for them at the time?
The Germans? No more than he had for us I don’t think. I don’t think – He was a good soldier the German, make no mistake. He fought the world in the finish and he very nearly beat them too. But the Italians, he’d get up and run or run towards you waving his hands and they were hopeless – well wherever I saw them. I believe they fought once or twice but they were pretty hopeless.
You said that you, that there were times in Tobruk

06:33:30:00

and El Alamein when you clearly had hit somebody. Did that have any sort of affect on you?
No absolutely none. It was hit or be hit and that’s all there was to it.
Had any of your training in the Middle East or before that in Australia really prepared you in any way for what you faced in the Middle East?
Most of them will tell you yes but I’d say I don’t think it trained me. Well the training did as a sig. I could do Morse and I

06:34:00:00

could do all that sort of thing and I knew how to work a wireless set and do very minor repairs, they’d want to be minor, but that’s all. And I carried our dearest – I was almost hit, I carried a wireless at El Alamein and all of a sudden it wouldn’t work and the piece, a bullet had gone through the set on my back but it was a good excuse to dump it until we got a new one. You have no idea the waste. They were worth

06:34:30:00

about two hundred pounds then which was a lot of money in those days. I just dropped it and said, “This is useless.” Because it had a bullet through it and they gave me another one.
Did you stop to think about what that meant?
Oh yes you used to – you’d think what had happened, you knew what was happening but no you had the job, it had to be done. And nearly every attack was done, we did them pretty automatically at ten o’clock at night and I think the German used to set his clock by them. But I mean no –

06:35:00:00

But if you hadn’t had that wireless on your back –
Well I was telling when that bullet went through it I had wireless and I knew it and I had big ear puffs on my ears so I could hear and I then I had another set here hanging in my front and another plug for the officer to use, and I heard this thing go through and it was dead. And I took them off and I listened to the noise that was going on that night and I put them back on again because it was too much – I thought they were better off without the noise.
Did you realise

06:35:30:00

that the wireless had been hit?
I thought it must have been, I couldn’t think of anything else. Either it had been hit or – well it was dead, my set was completely dead yeah.
And did you wonder whether they bullet had – ?
Oh no well it hadn’t hurt me, I knew that, I wasn’t hurt. I think it was a piece of shrapnel, a piece off a shell, you know that a bit of the steel or the stone or something had flown up and gone through it because I dropped the set and I never ever saw it again,

06:36:00:00

yeah.
The 9th Div is really quite renowned for what you did in Tobruk and then El Alamein and so forth. What are you most proud of?
Oh Tobruk – well as I said I think we’ve sold Tobruk you see and we couldn’t sell El Alamein. You tell, you speak to people, ordinary people and say I was in Tobruk and they say you were in Tobruk? Say I was in El Alamein and “Where was El Alamein?” they’ll say.

06:36:30:00

And we had an awful lot killed at El Alamein but they know nothing about it. But the same with the 60th if you talk about Greece and Crete. And they say Greece and Crete, were there Australian troops in Greece and Crete? Amazing the number of public who will say that to you now.
And how does it affect that people don’t know much about El Alamein?
Oh no I laugh, I’m beyond getting sour now, no I laugh. No it’s no difference to me now because

06:37:00:00

it’s past now, it’s gone and what difference does it make? All they’re doing is wanting to fight other wars now, new ones.
But when you look back at that time in the Middle East what is the thing about that period that you remember most or feel most proud of?
Oh well I suppose Tobruk but that’s only because it’s got the most publicity I feel proud. It’s prouder to say you went to Tobruk than El Alamein. But El Alamein was, well I’d say

06:37:30:00

it was tougher but I’ll admit it was every bit as tough as Tobruk.
So after El Alamein where did you go from there?
Well we were camped back, and I’ll always remember the night we finished we came back there was a spare shell fell just down the track from us and hit one of the brigadiers and killed him, yeah. And but anyway it rained like thunder the night after El Alamein finished and it’s what probably saved the German. Because he did get out, he could get out because there was only one bitumen road and

06:38:00:00

all he had to do was hold that road because nobody could get off it. It must have rained an inch. Because I was in a hole and it flooded down there and I got into the front of a truck because everything was quiet. But that’s all we – it rained and we didn’t do any training we just got down there and we fired off all our ammunition and nobody seemed to worry about it and we knew we’d go home then. And it was, well it was over and we followed – they got a section together to go in

06:38:30:00

there to be present at the retaking of Tobruk, they asked me if I wanted to go and I said no thank you very much I don’t want to go. But in never came off anyway.
Were you keen to go home?
Yes.
Why?
No reason. I had the girlfriend and I knew that I was on slippery ground, I knew that. By this time when we got home the Americans were all in the place and I knew

06:39:00:00

that you know things were – She was a nice girl, I’ve got nothing against her at all, I’d often – I came through Bilolea or Jambin where she was a few years ago and I asked at the general store are there any Haywoods around? And he said oh there’s quite a few Haywoods here. But I had Marge with me so we never bothered we just kept on coming.
So what was your condition by the time you left the Middle East?
I was not well, I was worn out, I was and I think nearly everybody and we were

06:39:30:00

very, very tired. Everybody was tired and worn. The same as Tobruk. If you’d been in action for months you were not – I was not near as bad as when I came back from New Guinea – I was absolutely completely worn out when I came back from New Guinea. But I was tired and we had a good trip home. We were on the Aquitania a ship of forty odd thousands tons. And we had a cabin and we were down right in the bottom. If we had had a torpedo it would have been

06:40:00:00

an air burst and would have gone above all our heads. But where the big air force vents – an air vent went over us, about this wide, it went over and we got in behind it with a bayonet and we banged it with a boot and we backed a hole in this. And then we stuck a boot or something in there and then we got the hole so the air would go past and jammed in there. And I’ve often wondered what they thought when they found it but there was about eight of us in the cabin and we got

06:40:30:00

plenty, plenty of air. Other than that it was absolutely stifling. We were on D Deck which is the lowest deck there was – it was stifling really.
So no special treatment despite all your hard work?
Oh no and they would have half killed us if they’d have known but we got in behind the wall on it. It took us about an hour to get through it.
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 07

07:00:31:00

Can you tell us Doug what you did when you came back to Australia?
Yeah well we came back on the Aquitania and it was a lovely trip, I enjoyed it because it was so peaceful, so quiet. And they let us alone, they let us alone pretty well on the way back. And we did a bit of training and he’d say you’d better get on the little buzzer and do a bit of practise and I said, “Well what’s the use of doing that? I’ve been doing it for twelve months, I can do it in my sleep.” And I can’t even read the

07:01:00:00

Morse code now. But anyway we got back and we got off the train in Sydney. They had us well organised. We got off the boat in Sydney. Marched off the boat onto a train and straight through to Brisbane. Got off the train in Brisbane and spent a few hours there and then another train and then I went to Cairns. It was as quick as that. They had us organised, I’m sure it was the 9th,

07:01:30:00

that had organised it, it wouldn’t have been anybody else couldn’t have done it but it was very well done. And I got home to Babinda and my grandmother who’d lived with us had died while I was gone and everybody else was there.
And what was it like to see your family again?
Oh marvellous, marvellous, marvellous. Yeah Mum cried and cried of course. I had a bit of weep myself I think because I don’t think there’s any great sadness in that,

07:02:00:00

any great weakness in that weeping a little bit. So I was home, I saw the leave pass – I was looking at our leave pass I saw the other day and I think we had about twenty-eight days I think they gave us when we came home.
How did you fill that time, what did you do?
Um, well I tell you what I did do and I nearly broke Mother’s heart I think, I drank too much, that’s what I did. Because the nearest hotel was five mile away on the bus

07:02:30:00

and used to go in on the morning and I’d drink and come staggering onto the bus after the pictures and come wallop and into my bed. No, I troubled my mother a lot because I drank a lot and I knew nobody. The place was crawling with Americans. The 501 or 503 Parachute Battalion was in Gordonvale twenty miles away and they were in there and my family had taken them to heart of course and I couldn’t take them to heart at the time. Now I laugh about it but I couldn’t then.

07:03:00:00

And I drank too much. Oh a few friends we used to go out but I had no – Oh yes I did, in the middle of this I took a trip down to Rockhampton to see the lady down there and I realised again that the duck had flown and so I just said that was it and –
Had she found someone else or you didn’t connect?
Oh yes, she had I think, but she never actually told me so, but she was very nice really, she was very friendly.

07:03:30:00

She did everything she could with me, but it was always that far apart. And a very pretty girl too. But I went down there and I came back and –
Did you miss the guys?
Oh yes but there was a few of them in Cairns and we were talking about El Alamein, when we were talking about El Alamein I was just thinking there was one bloke there Rusty Martin I carried him in after he was wounded. Another chap, although it was a funny story, he had the wireless and I didn’t,

07:04:00:00

we had a stretcher. When we got back I said, “Have you still got the wireless on Pat? What have you got that for? He said, “I forgot, I forgot I was even bloody well wearing it.” He said.
He’d become so used to wearing it I suppose.
Yeah oh well he was so frightened, we coming – it was night time and they were firing shots in the air to give us a line back and there was Germans all floating all over the wood, but that’s just by the way that one.
So what happened after that month?
After – ?
After that month of leave?

07:04:30:00

Leave? Well we went back, we went back to camp at the Atherton Tableland. I don’t know if you know the Tableland at all do you? A little place called Kaira, I was up there a few months ago. And Kaira is a, there’s nothing there. Wherever we went, wherever the 15th Battalion went there’s only one thing you could be sure of there’d be nothing there. And a little shop. I got quite – not friendly with the girl, with I did get friendly with her in this respect that she used to give me sugar – sugar was impossible to get. And I’m telling her one day

07:05:00:00

and she said, “You come from Bindi, do you know the Mays?” And I said, “Know them well.” “Oh.” From then on she used to give me a little packet of sugar and the blokes used to always say to me you’d better go and see your sugar girl because we used to boil – if we were I camp we’d boil up every night. But we camped in Raven – not in Ravenshoe, in Kaira. And right on there is a big ridge behind it, it’s where the Tinaroo Dam is the biggest dam in Queensland is. And it wasn’t there and the dam,

07:05:30:00

where the dam is now three hundred feet of water or however deep, I don’t know how much, it was only a trickle and we could walk across. We went down one day and cut a few trees and put them across so we could walk across and keep your feet dry. And we trained very, very hard because we’d heard reports that the Jap was a very good soldier. And we trained very hard for about three months there and up over those hills and gorges and down, it was really hard.

07:06:00:00

As I said I saw it only a few weeks ago and the dam was nearly, nearly dry or two-thirds dry but it’s full again now, my daughter tells me.
What was it like training with men who hadn’t been to war?
Oh well they were good because it was a case of they knew that you knew so they wanted to know everything that you knew, what’s this like and what’s that like? And of course we could tell them it’s a bit different here we don’t know what it’s going to be like really because jungle training is

07:06:30:00

entirely different from desert training. But they were good we’d had very little trouble. Some of the battalions had big troubles when they got reinforcements. We got three hundred in one swoop once and we accepted them. We put the old soldier act on them the whole time – we were the old soldiers and they were the young ones but still in all they took it and they were – no we never – but some of them did, some of them had a lot of troubles, right down from their majors,

07:07:00:00

from their officers down they, they were sarcastic about them.
Did you have officers that hadn’t been to war?
Oh yes and we got them all the time, oh yes we had them, they used to come all the time. I remember coming – we had a bloke call his Dad now Alan Hardy. I remember saying something about going now and he said, “You’re going to get married when you get back.” I said, “Me get married? No, no.” He said, “Why?” He said, “Oh I thought I’d come up and be your best man.” And I thought you’d be the last bloke

07:07:30:00

I’d have to have as my best man, getting around in your flash officer’s uniform and me in the old one that the Australians make. No but ah, no and they were pretty good officers but again we always, we always made a point of putting the old soldier act on the new officer. He’d give us a lecture and he’d have Vol five which is the signal training manual and he’d say this that and he’d read it all out and we’d say yes but we don’t do that

07:08:00:00

sir because – and then we’d tell him. And he’d finish up having the lecture.
How did the signals job change from that point?
It changed, it changed quite a lot. When we came back there were telephone lines but lines were very difficult to carry and scrub – we carried them certainly. We captured a lot of German equipment. The German had, all his equipment was good. We carried a home a couple of, a couple of reels of very fine

07:08:30:00

wire. It was, oh it was thicker than cotton, to say it was thinner than cotton but it wasn’t very thick and we could carry this and we could lay it and you could hardly see it and it was black and it was on the land. But we had little handset wirelesses, American jobs, they were quite good, for about a mile and we used them a lot. We didn’t use the wireless much because the forests were too heavy – if you were in scrub the wireless wouldn’t work. And we used these little handsets and a telephone

07:09:00:00

but it was – but the conditions, physically the conditions were terrible. And I always reckon – we landed when we went to New Guinea we left from Cairns, we were up in Kaira, we did training with the Americans on Trinity Beach and then we went up and landed in Milne Bay and then we went to, we were going up and then we were going up to

07:09:30:00

Mount Litaklin [?UNCLEAR] on Lae. And it’s always a bit amusing to all the old blokes they told us we were going to have very serious fighting in Lae, he had twenty thousand troops in there and we’d have to fight to the last thing and we walked into the place virtually. He’d got out. He saw us coming. Because they’d land another division up the Markham Valley and they were coming down the valley and we came in from the sea and so they were – and then they sent us to Finschhafen and this used to, this used to be our standing joke

07:10:00:00

on the intelligence, they said they sent us to Lae and said it was full of Japs. They said you go to Finsch and there’s no Japs and when we got to Finsch there was about ten thousand of them there and four thousand of us they put in the middle of them. But I was never in the city at Lae, or city or the place, it was all swamp I got to within a mile of it when they pulled us back because the 7th Division had got in first. And they

07:10:30:00

pulled us back to the beach and sent us to Finschhafen which there was nothing there really but –
When you first got to Finschhafen what could you see?
Well what they were doing, what they were trying to do was drive the Japs, they wanted to, at Finch they wanted to put an aerodrome in and the Americans, native and those black Americans and their white officers they did a marvellous job. There was scrub like you see

07:11:00:00

in North Queensland and trees you couldn’t put your arms around and they cleaned the lot and had planes flying off that in a month. They worked night and day and the Japs were up in the hills behind and I often wondered what they thought. They must have known then we can’t beat these blokes the way they’re going. But the Americans did, they were marvellous at engineering. We sometimes wondered about their soldiering but at engineering they were marvellous they were.
Why do you say that, what about

07:11:30:00

their soldiering was – ?
Well we never really met any soldiers in there. We met the boat battalions that landed us there and we met the air force but they didn’t never met any of their combatant fellows. They were funny they used to have fantastic ideas about the war and what it was and we used to laugh at them. I remember going to a picture show one night at Finschhafen just before we came home when it was quiet and saw with them,

07:12:00:00

saw them in something in Guadalcanal and they threw a hand grenade in a place as big as this and it all blew up, the whole place was up, and everybody was – and all our blokes they were silent because they knew it wouldn’t happen but the Yanks would always “Oh hey look at that! That’s the way!” And they’d clap. But this whole place went up and it wouldn’t have killed everybody who was inside because they weren’t big enough, they were only big enough like this to throw in.

07:12:30:00

They’d make it very uncomfortable inside, probably kill most people but they were, they were very good at their job. They had their job, they were a boat battalion and if we told them where we wanted to go they put us there. They weren’t keen on it I know but they did it.
And what happened, what did you do when you got there? Did you know what was going to – ?
Well we were landing on a foreign shore I mean the Japs were there. There was nothing in Lae. We landed in Lae and there was just nothing, we landed. But in

07:13:00:00

Finch we had fighting from the second we landed, I mean he was there. We fought our way off the beach. Not heavily, it wasn’t heavy fighting, there was only a few of them there but it was just getting off the beach, you had to get off the beach because a few minutes later he bombed it. And if you were on the beach it was a pretty nasty place to be. Well we got off it and got inside. And we

07:13:30:00

went along and took Finschhafen, where it was, and there wasn’t much there, we took that. That was heavy fighting, we had some heavy casualties, some very, very heavy casualties as a matter of fact. Captain Christie and Lieutenant Harpham and Wes De Sailey, Lou McIntyre, my friend. They’re innumerable the ones we had there on the way and it was just one by one and one by one they were dribbling off. It was –

07:14:00:00

And what happened to Lou?
To me?
To Lou Harp?
To Lou McIntyre? Well we were – it came to this and it was when Harpham and Christy went forward to look out, we came to the Busu River looking at a way to get across it, it was a pretty big river, and they went forward to have a look. And we were on a track and he started to mortar this track and we got off it, I was carrying the wireless and Lou said to me, “Come around to this side of this tree.”

07:14:30:00

And I said, “I can’t get around there because the area won’t let me get around.” I must have had a 108, 118 rather, and I was trying to get around to the other side of the tree. And all of a sudden the mortar hit the top of the tree. Well Lou was very badly wounded, he died next day and oh about ten of them were wounded. I was about the only one, the very few who wasn’t wounded. Billy Woods and I, I think he wasn’t wounded either. And anyway they took Lou back

07:15:00:00

and he was good, he was right as rain, he was happy, he was talking to me, he wanted to know if I wanted his camera. He was allowed to carry one. I said I’ve got enough to carry now. And a little folding primus he gave me – I’ve still got it, it’s out in the garage there, a little folding primus which was very useful, I took that. But he got back and the next day they rang me and told me he was gone. And I see that book I wrote, I just read it, I read it, it’s ten years since I read it that they took

07:15:30:00

his leg off. I’d forgotten that, they had taken his leg off when it happened. The trouble is he was a very tall boy, very think and not very fit and because of too much walking, too much marching, too much war and he just didn’t seem to have the strength to get over it. Had he been well I’m sure he would have got over things but he wasn’t well.
How long had you been with him?
Oh since the beginning of the war. We’d been together since the beginning. He

07:16:00:00

didn’t go to Darwin, we picked up when we came back, Christmas Day when we went to join the boat for the Middle East, yeah. I keep loose contact with his sister, she lives up at, up oh where they have the troops, Canungra. I don’t know why she lived up – she used to live down the coast and he was a solicitor her husband and he died and she wanted to

07:16:30:00

go, well when they buried him she went up there. I’ve never known why. I haven’t seen her for years.
How did that the surprise of coming into that conflict, how did everybody regroup and when did you realise that there were going to be ten thousand troops to deal with?
How do you mean? Realise what?
You said that there was ten thousand Japs.
Oh when we landed there?
Yeah.
No when we got in he didn’t have ten thousand there immediately but he got them there in a hurry

07:17:00:00

and if you read the war histories you read where Moreshead was crying, or the brigadier who was there, Windeyer, who was a Judge of the High Court later he was calling for more troops, he said we want another brigade, we want another brigade and, and the commander in chief not so much Blamey but who was the commander of the Americans?
Macarthur.

07:17:30:00

Macarthur, yeah Macarthur said, he kept saying they, there was none no Japs there and the blokes are telling him no and they sent again, Melbourne’s telling us there’s no Japs there. And they’re in Melbourne and we’re there with them. Anyway they beat them in the finish. I think Moreshead sent them, sent them a brigade up and then they sent another brigade up and then we had the division there and from then on – that’s where a chap won the VC there going up to – taking Sattelberg and

07:18:00:00

died with Eric and he got the VC. He was a DC [Distinguished Conduct] winner in the Middle East and – it was very tough fighting, very nasty fighting. Little niggles, little niggles all the time, all the time, all the time. And all the time you turned around somebody was being killed and –
When you say nasty in what way was it more nasty than what you’d experienced with the Germans?
Well ah, well I suppose principally you couldn’t see. See you’d be in a patrol and

07:18:30:00

you couldn’t see any further than that curtain and the front yard. The only thing you’d see, you’d see a rustle or a whistle or anything. It was mad and you were being killed by people you couldn’t see. In the desert you could see him, you knew where he was. But I don’t suppose it was any worse really. Well it wasn’t any worse, I think it was easier there but the physical conditions were definitely worse. The food was bad, the lines were

07:19:00:00

bad, they had the dark boys [indigenous Papua New Guinean] bringing it up to us and if there were few shells they’d fly through and leave it and you’d have to go back and help yourselves and – No the food, the whole conditions and that were terrible in New Guinea as far as food. I spent a bit of time away from the battalion. I poisoned my foot and I was in hospital for a little while and then I was in a convalescent camp again and then I went back and I got malaria. But I was

07:19:30:00

with them a lot of the time. But when I was back, one of my favourite stories, when I was back in the convalescent camp there was a fellow called Bob Pewit there – he was the RSM [Regimental Sergeant Major]. And he was a warrant officer class one and I’d learnt by this time, I was an old soldier I’d learnt a bit of what you could do and what you couldn’t do, and one day they were up at Koitake which is a convalescent camp right where the foot of the

07:20:00:00

Owen Stanley started. And it was a lovely place, I’d been up there and I’d been there and these fellow they were, all the members of the convalescent camp were going around in starched clothes, they all had a native servant, and you know they’re dressed up to kill and we had dirty, filthy uniforms we’d come back from the desert, scrub in. And one day he wanted, and he never did any duty, as they said they’d get, the men who were supposed to be recuperating did the duties, they said you come and pick up a big pile of rubbish there. I said,

07:20:30:00

“Okay staff,” I said “Where’s the shovel?” He said, “You don’t want a shovel. You an old soldier ought to learn to manipulate and do things.” He said, “Use your hands man, use your hands.” I said, “Listen staff,” I said “I’ve been shovelling shit up in Finschhafen for months.” I said, “I don’t want to do it anymore.” “Oh,” he said, “a smart guy are you?” And I said, “Yeah. A smart guy. I want a shovel.” And then he started into me and I knew just how far I could go, I answered him back a little

07:21:00:00

bit and by this time I’d got an audience of twenty-five and he said, “I think I’ll send you back up the island.” And I said, “Well that’ll be alright at least I’ll be amongst men.” And then he said, then he said, “Well after that I think I might keep you here.” And I said, “That mightn’t be a bad idea, I don’t see anybody getting shot around here.” But I was gone the following the day. My tongue got me into trouble. I was always in trouble with my tongue. I was rather a naughty boy in the army. Not that I ever did jail or

07:21:30:00

anything, but I wasn’t as good as I should have been.
What were some of the things that you said that got you in trouble apart from that?
Well that was the biggest trouble. I probably over went it, I could have got into trouble but he was, I think he was a bit nervy, he didn’t like pulling me on because he would have had to get officers from there and most of them would have been soldiers who’d been in the line and he didn’t get in the line.

07:22:00:00

I remember the bat man to our officer telling me once in the Middle East, we were talking about writing letters and getting the read and a lot of the time the officer wouldn’t read them, and he just, we talked about getting them read and he looked at me and he said, “He always reads yours.” He said to me.
Did you talk to the younger soldiers about what had happened in the Middle East?
Oh yes, yes we always tried to tell them about – and they had a great

07:22:30:00

habit of trying – the younger soldier had the great habit of trying to get up close to you and you’d say, “Get away, get away, get away, get away.” You didn’t want two of them – a better shot if there was two of them. No they were good they never – and a young soldier soon became an old soldier when he was with you – he soon learnt. He saw what the other blokes did, they were pretty wide awake they saw what everybody else did and they did it too. Yes it was – Kaira and that New Guinea campaign a nasty campaign. Well they all were,

07:23:00:00

but physically it was nasty I found. But it wasn’t as – we never had the casualties we had in the Middle East and we never, you know but we all got malaria, I think every man got malaria.
How did malaria affect you as opposed to what you had in the Middle East?
Oh malaria – well malaria was a –
Like how was it different to jaundice?
You got a fever. It was like you got a very, very, very bad dose of flu. You were really, really

07:23:30:00

sick and you were, you didn’t care whether you lived or you died. Then they put you in hospital and gave you three days quinine I think or four days and so many days of plasma quin and so many days of quinine and said back to the front and that was it you were out in about nine or ten days. But you always came back, you were the best part of a stone lighter than when you went and oh no it’s a nasty illness and you had it, I had it for years after the war, I had it for three

07:24:00:00

or four years after the war. And I had a brother-in-law who went to the war and he had it for about seven years afterwards. But malaria it was a nasty complaint and you didn’t like it but it was always good because they used to, when you got – we were over on Finschhafen and Lae, we were over the other side of the Owen Stanley from Port Moresby and every time you got sick they used to fly you back. And they were fourteen thousand feet high the mountains and um

07:24:30:00

you always knew when you were going back at least you were going to be safe for a few weeks. And when I came back – a couple of times I hurt my foot, it wasn’t good and then while I was away it was quite bad and when I was back it was bad and then when I got malaria and when I came back it had just about finished, we were going up to a place called Sio up the coast and that was pretty easy. I remember going to a church service on

07:25:00:00

Christmas Day with Algie Ash whose father was the bishop of Rockhampton. I saw him only the other day. I hadn’t seen him for years and years and years, I saw him at the Anzac march, he’s a doctor, Algernon Ash.
What sort of things did you do for fun when you were in New Guinea? Was there fun times?
Do for?
For fun?
Fun? There was no fun. Because I reckon we were in, in Finschhafen in particular, I reckon we went

07:25:30:00

a month and we were never dry, never ever dry. You carried two half tents between you, between you and somebody else and when you stopped you put them up and your feet went out the end and you were never actually ever dry in Finschhafen. No there wasn’t much fun. When we came back, we had a little niche when we were waiting to come home for about a fortnight, behind the sea we used to go for a swim – it wasn’t bad. But it used to rain every day because we had a little cave we used to go and play bridge in all day.

07:26:00:00

But it’s a very bad country. You take Milne Bay, a perfect day in the morning, three o’clock it would be raining every day. And Finsch wasn’t quite as bad but it was nearly as bad.
You were talking about rats and fleas in the Middle East what were the creatures in Finsch?
There was nothing I can remember seeing. I don’t ever remember seeing anything. No human, no

07:26:30:00

well meaning animal would live in the place I’d say. It never a place where people wanted to go back. They all said they wanted to go back because you know there was good financial money to be made but I never had the ambition to go back to New Guinea. It was a place that I saw and when I left I came back on a boat called the Klip Fontein, beautiful boat but she was that loaded we only had

07:27:00:00

two meals a day and we had to have them in shifts.
How do you think the Jap compared to the German soldier?
Well, here again you feel some people disagree, I reckon he wasn’t in the same class as the German soldier. He’d die, he’d die in his place, he’d been in a place there and they’d bring up blokes and call on three or four of them to surrender. There’s no way they’d die. All you had to do was throw a mortar amongst them and kill them because they would not surrender. Well the German would,

07:27:30:00

he would if it was impossible, if he saw his situation was impossible. I always reckon the German was a really good soldier, a really good soldier, a better soldier than the Jap. We might not have seen the Jap at his best because he’d lost the Kokoda Trail battle and he’d lost Lae, not Lae, he’d lost Buna and Gona and Sanananda. And we came on him when I think his victory days were finished and if he had any brains he knew he was beaten but he fought, he fought to the end,

07:28:00:00

he’d, you know he’d be still going as long as he had ammunition he’d fight.
And how did the death of your friend affect over that time?
Oh it affected me. I was, especially Lou, especially Lou. Dave Porter another friend of mine was very badly wounded in the Middle East, he came home, he was all right and he died a little while ago. But Lou, oh I was, I was absolutely shattered when Lou died. I couldn’t believe it, I wouldn’t believe it.

07:28:30:00

But it was true. I met his mother. I took all his gear. One thing that I was just reading while I was waiting for you and I read, I went saw his mother and I spoke about going and seeing his mother and I took his stuff. When he got wounded I said have you got any money? And he said no and he said we’d been playing poker on the beach at Lae before we left we were, and he said you won it all and I had to, I’d won about thirty or forty

07:29:00:00

pounds. And I said well you’d better take – and I gave him seven pounds, I remember seven single pound notes I put them in his pocket. I said you might need this more than me and he said, “Oh I might I suppose.” And away he went. He said, “Do you want the camera?” You know everything he had, “Watch?” No I said I’ve got a watch – I don’t want your watch and I don’t want your camera. When I went to see his mother she said, “Poor Louie,” she said, “A handful of silver,”

07:29:30:00

she still had it a handful of silver – no watch, no camera. And I opened my mouth and I was going to say something and then I thought no because if I’d have said I gave him seven pounds she’d have given me the seven pounds and I said no. But then I couldn’t help thinking that it was the base man that had gone through his gear when he was killed and that was it, yes.
So the camera and the watch

07:30:00:00

never got home?
No camera. He had a beautiful camera, it was very expensive. Well it’s old fashioned now of course, one of these foldy ones up and came out like this. And he took some good snaps but no she never got his camera because I kept in contact with her for years afterwards. She came up to Cairns. I even got on the boat and went to Green Island and I got sick on every boat I was ever on I think and I took her to Green Island one day which is about

07:30:30:00

twenty miles. But we came back from there and went to Brisbane. Yeah we went to Brisbane that’s right and I met my brother in Brisbane. He happened to be stationed at Brisbane and I was a corporal so he went and got a set of stripes and he took me out to the sergeant’s mess at Amberley and oh we had a great old time. I shouldn’t have been there of course. And all the blokes were buying my beer

07:31:00:00

which was just as well because I never had a brass farthing [quarter of a penny], I never left to get any money. And I had a great time, it was a marvellous night there and they treated me like the hero I thought I was and I quite enjoyed that night in there.
And did they want to know about your experiences?
Oh yes all and I didn’t want to talk about it then, it was too soon, too fresh and too new, Lou had been killed and I didn’t want to talk. But I did I suppose I talked a bit.

07:31:30:00

If I remember rightly in the morning I was still drunk when I came back to camp, I was still drunk. Then they sent us home for a few day leave but I was, gee I was a mess. I don’t do it now, I’ve got that awful disease diabetes.
Did it help being able to do that?
Well I don’t know, it was the in thing, it’s all you did. You see

07:32:00:00

when you came – we went to Maryborough well I should have known my first wife Gwen she would have been there but I never got near her, there was a paratroop crowd there, there was everybody. And there were seventy thousand troops on the Atherton Tableland and I mean your chances of getting yourself a lady were very, very slim I can tell you. And I used to go home which as I said didn’t do the pay book much good, I got into trouble once or twice for it but I went home.

07:32:30:00

But I, well I liked the tableland although it was – we worked very hard in Kaira, we didn’t work so hard at Ravenshoe. We all reckon the war was won at Ravenshoe and that’s where we got the three hundred reinforcements from the battalion they broke up.
So what happened after that, where did you go from there?
Well we stayed at Ravenshoe. We were in Ravenshoe for about ten months. Oh terrible it was really doing nothing, doing

07:33:00:00

nothing. Because we were going to go about three times. We got half ready, cancelled. Half ready, cancelled. Because by that time if you follow history the Americans were just rolling them back like this all the way towards Japan. And we would have gone to the Philippines only apparently, not Moreshead, Blamey and the American had had a big row. The American wanted to split 6th, 7th and 9th, they were

07:33:30:00

the three infantry divisions. The 8th had been taken in Singapore. And he wanted to take us and put us each with an American division to make us into – that’s what they call a corps, three divisions. And Blamey wouldn’t have it, he said I want to send the 6th, 7th and 9th as a corps with their own artillery, with their own aeroplanes, with their own everything. And the Yanks wouldn’t have it so they sent us to Borneo. We camped in Ravenshoe.

07:34:00:00

We played up in Ravenshoe, the drink in those days – I wish I could do it now but –
What were some of the things that you got up to?
Well I remember one night I’d won some money in the two-up game so I went and bought a carton, not a carton, they used to put lager in cases. And a chap and I bought a case of lager, four dozen, warm. Now where are we going to drink this? There was about ten of us there. Come on we’ll take it over to the

07:34:30:00

railway yard. So there’s an empty wagon and we got in the railway into one of these empty wagons. And we finished that. I don’t know how many was there, but people used to come and go and we drank the lot of it. And then we staggered home. One chap I know he went to sleep in the bottom and I said, “Look he’s being sick.” And I grabbed him by the feet and pulled him out of the way and next morning he had all splinters in his shoulders from being dragged along the railway line. It was terrible to think that – Five years of wasted

07:35:00:00

life. All I did was kill and try and kill people and I did nothing really, it didn’t work because we came back we gave them the country and what did they do with it? They messed it up but anyway who am I to complain? I’ve done reasonably well and –
So in that ten months – ?
Oh we trained. We went up to Mount Garnet and –
What would you have wanted to do? Would you have rather got out of the whole thing then?
I would have

07:35:30:00

then. My parents tried to get me out but they couldn’t. A lot them did, a lot of them – if they knew the right politician they got out. And they would take them out for farm work and the farmers were there, we had farmer friends that said, “Oh we’ll get it him out. We’ll try and get him out.” But they couldn’t, especially in sigs. It was very difficult to get men who knew Morse and that sort of thing so I was there and there I stayed. And then we were there we came down and did invasion training and I went home

07:36:00:00

two or three times and then we came down and they said you’re going to Borneo. Well they didn’t say we were going to Borneo but we knew we were going somewhere up there. We knew we were going to Morotai. And my sister who worked in Cairns she came out to see me. We were camped just out of some of the suburbs. And I’ll always remember her, her boss gave her two bottles of beer to bring out and she rode a pushbike out – a bottle of beer in each hand riding a pushbike. No cars, no petrol. And Dave Porter and I sat down beside the roadside

07:36:30:00

and we drank the two bottles of beer. And then we went up to a friend that she had and stayed the night and she said she had the most miserable night she ever had in her life because I told her I was going to be killed. I said I’ve been in three times and I can’t do it a fourth time. It’s got to end, it’s just got to finish, that’s it. She said she went home and cried all night. But I went and I never saw a Jap, never saw an angry Jap anyway, saw a few prisoners but I never saw angry Jap when I went to Borneo.

07:37:00:00

How did you get to Borneo?
We went from here to Morotai on a terrible trip on a boat called The Both. About three thousand ton and they put seven hundred men on it, three thousand tons. Just she was one long deck underneath and we were camped there – some there and some on the deck on top. And went to Morotai and then we went over there in an LST [landing ship tank]. And by this time we had equipment everywhere, everything we could possibly ask

07:37:30:00

for. In Finschhafen, not Finschhafen I mean in Tobruk ever second weapon we had was an enemy weapon that we’d captured, we had them, you know that chap would have Bren, when we were supposed to have a Bren. We were armed like nothing on earth in Tobruk. Instead of having a Bren we’d have a Bren and a Breeder and Fiat or something of that sort, we’d have about four machine guns there. And plenty of ammo too because the Japs, the Italians had been captured and they’d left all their

07:38:00:00

ammunition behind. And their guns which they sent to Greece. And we landed on Muar Island. They bombed it and they shelled it with a cruiser and about four or five destroyers and we went on and there hadn’t been a Jap on it for months, hadn’t been a Jap – it must have cost a million dollars to do it. Then we went over the island and then we went up to Limbang and no Jap I never saw them. We had two men killed there, two men killed.

07:38:30:00

Somebody roused at me the other day they, I made a joke I said, “Oh Borneo that was nothing.” “It was nothing to you.” He said, and this fellow he’s a good friend of mine, he said, “How about the two men that were killed? How about their parents and their wives and whatever?” He said, “I didn’t know them they were newcomers to the battalion, probably why they were killed.” I said yes I had to admit they were right I should never have cracked a joke about Borneo being easy but –
I guess you’d seen masses of people die so it was different.
Yes we were used to seeing plenty. We saw

07:39:00:00

plenty in Finch and masses in Tobruk and El Alamein, there were masses of enemy there. No Borneo’s a very pretty place. I enjoyed Borneo when I got there. But when I came home, especially from New Guinea, she was shocked with the condition I was in when I came home from New Guinea. I was like a walking rake and we knew the butcher and I couldn’t eat, I didn’t want to eat and we knew the butcher and he

07:39:30:00

used to give us all the fillet steak we could use. You know rationing was on and we got beautiful meat, we got everything we wanted but it was no good I was a bad case. It took me months to get over that. But when I came home from Borneo, I was no good when I came home from Borneo because I got sick every day on that little LST I came home from Borneo on.
So what happened when you got to Borneo?
Well we landed, we landed in Borneo, we landed in Muar Island and then they took us over to the main,

07:40:00:00

mainland. And there’s no roads in Borneo, there’s hardly a road in the place – well there is just a little bit. And they took us up in a boat to a place called Limbang, which has been in the news a few times of late. And we went to this Limbang and when we got up there, went there and an old Chinaman came up and he said, “We are very pleased – the proud British soldiers – ” And they said, “ Where’s the nips [Japanese]? Where the nips?” And he had his speech he had to finish his speech, he said “They went yesterday.”

07:40:30:00

And but we saw them, a few rallied to them and we had the Dayaks [indigenous people of Borneo] in there, they were greatest thing. They weren’t frightened of any Jap. He never quietened them, they’d always, if a Jap was seen, they’d always kill them and they were little and they were always doing it and they were little and the most handsome men I think I’ve ever seen. About five foot two, beautifully built, copper coloured, and walk, they just glided

07:41:00:00

when they walked. The women were beautiful too until they were about twenty and then they got like, oh everything wrong. But they were beautiful women and beautiful men and nice people too. They gave us parties – we had a good time in Borneo. Rice wine and coconut wine and everything. We had a whale of a time in Borneo. I did I enjoyed Borneo but I nearly killed myself on the way home though.
Interviewee: Douglas Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 08

08:00:35:00

Doug you spoke about New Guinea being more difficult in some ways, how did it affect you and your state of mind?
Well I don’t know if it affected my state of mind but physically it affected me a lot because as I said I was a complete rake when I came home and I was, I was, to use an old army term, I was stuffed and that’s it, there’s no doubt about it, but I think nearly all of us

08:01:00:00

were. It was hard been hard up hill, down, physically it had been very, very hard. Not so bad – it would have been with the Japs, I don’t mean we didn’t have plenty of fighting we did have but physically it was far harder than the Middle East and I was, and I’d had it when I got home. I remember I lay for the first twenty-four hours I never got off the bed I don’t think. And poor old Mum was worried about me too, “You shouldn’t have to go back.” And all this sort of business but of course that was

08:01:30:00

just a dream.
What about your state of mind though, did it deteriorate while you were in New Guinea?
Yes well after Lou was killed yes I was very bad. Lou was killed this day and we had to walk up a – they decided they couldn’t cross a river there so they made a flanking mid, and there was a big hill, I reckon it was up like this but it must have been a bit there. And we got up there and I remember crawling up this hill pulling a wireless and a roll of cable and everything up there and somebody came along and said,

08:02:00:00

saw me and said, “You can’t stop here Doug.” He said, “The Japs.” I remember saying, “They can have me if they want me, I’ve had it.” And I remember he, he was an officer, I don’t even remember who it was, he took the line of cable off me. Anyway I crawled up. But I was physically and then the foot was sore and they were doing service to the foot and then that night the chap on the cabinet up there he was killed. I was in the hole here, he was in the hole there and the mortar fell right into his hole

08:02:30:00

and killed him and the next day the doctor said, “You’ve got out.” Well it was undoubtedly my foot because I couldn’t put a shoe on, a boot on. But I was physically very close to cracking, I was I was the nearest approach I ever was to cracking was there before we crossed the Buso River. But I’d have made it I’m sure, I’m sure my pride, I’m a very proud man in a lot of ways and I’m sure my pride would have made,

08:03:00:00

made me go because you read the description, it’s they trekked up a great steep hill like this and when they got up there the brigadier came along and he said, “I don’t know how they did it.” And you know it was a marvellous job. It goes down as one of the classic things in New Guinea this attack, but I wasn’t there and thank heavens.
In the Middle East you had seen such an incredible amount of devastation and killing

08:03:30:00

and death and you spoke earlier about losing many friends there, what was it about the situation in New Guinea with your friend Lou that – ?
Lou? Well I was closer with Lou. I was friends with others but he was like a blood brother, he was, completely, he wrote a history himself. It’s what gave me the idea really but his mother showed it to me when I came down. When he was home on leave he wrote it before he went to New Guinea and he just said, “And this

08:04:00:00

Doug Maclean I’ve mentioned him once or twice you’ll hear a lot more about him from now on.” You know it was just the fact, we just seemed to have something and he was probably the bravest man I knew, he never had a fear in his body, I had plenty but he never had fear. I remember one day he was making toast, making toast in the camp up in the Atherton Tableland and they had a little soya bean stove and he made the toast and the thing exploded. And he’s

08:04:30:00

still sitting there with his piece of toast trying to make his piece of toast and me I was over about that fence over there and so was everybody else. And he just looked up and said, “That was disconcerting wasn’t it?” I always remember he said, “That was disconcerting.” Well that’s what he was and I thought he was indestructible, I did. I never thought they could ever, ever, ever hurt him but they did. And I still,

08:05:00:00

well I don’t say there’s not a day I don’t remember him every day that would be silly but I mean quite often Lou said or something he did will just track across my mind and I’ll think Lou said that or Lou did that, Louis John. Yeah. I used to go and see them when his sister, she was, she was alive and she married a solicitor and he was a POW

08:05:30:00

of the Germans and he was taken in Crete and I used to go and see them. And then they sent their kids up and they stayed with Gwen and I in Cairns. But somehow it seemed to fizzle out, I don’t know how. I liked her, she was a nice girl and he was a nice bloke too.
And the day that Lou was injured, the day that he was wounded you saw him and you thought he was fine?
I thought, I thought he was all right, I helped

08:06:00:00

dress him, he was hurt up here, all around the hip and more down here and it was all torn to ribbons the leg but I helped bandage him up and we put him on and sent him. Because it was only a mortar bomb that had hit him, it wasn’t under rifle fire you can get out and look after – and he went off quite happily. He said to me, “You write those sisters.” I had two younger sisters and he knew them, he’d met them, he said, “You tell those young sisters I’m in Rocky,” quick because they were taking him to Lae

08:06:30:00

and flying all wounded direct to Australia. “You tell those young sisters of yours to come and see me.” And of course I said, “Oh of course I’ll do that.” And away he went and we just never saw him again and next day they rang up and said he was gone. I think and two days later I was gone too, I was taken out. But it did, it affected me very, very badly. And still does affect me. He’s the one thing that I think about sometimes and

08:07:00:00

I can think about the others Dave Porter and Holloway and these blokes but I liked them, I got on well with them, never had an argument, was friends with them, but never was as close as with Lou. I couldn’t beat him at poker, he used take the money. The only time I did it when I put this seven pounds in his pocket that I wasted but –
So just getting back to the battles in New Guinea. When you first arrived

08:07:30:00

in Lae did you arrive on LSTs?
No – LCIs [landing craft infantry].
LCIs, sorry, LCIs. What was the situation when you arrived on the LCIs?
Well in Lae they just, they ran the LCI, they ran them up on the beach and had the laneway down each side, not on the beach near the beach and we just walked down it. It was different in Finch –
Sorry Finschhafen. When you landed in Finschhafen what was the – ?
Well the second landing, we were, we were a reserve company

08:08:00:00

we knew they were brawling on the beach, we knew that, we could hear it and see it. A few got killed. A mortar bomb landed on one of the LCIs. But we went down, some of them in deep water up to here in water and you got ashore. And then for about a few hours we got inland and we, we didn’t go too far but we dug ourselves in and he was not exactly thick on

08:08:30:00

the ground, his troops were twenty miles away and it took him a while to get them there. And by the time we got them there, and we were ready for him and we were very heavily armed by this time, we had everything we wanted and we captured a few Japanese guns, we had everything and we were well armed and we could stand nearly anything but it was very close on Finch once or twice. They attacked the beach and came in barges and attacked the beach. We were up the front.

08:09:00:00

And the troops came in and it was very dicky for a while but –
You said that one of the difficulties that was very different from the Middle East was that you couldn’t see who was firing at you and you couldn’t see them.
That’s true.
How did you fire at the enemy if you couldn’t see them?
You knew they were in that position, a bunch of scrub, and you fired in that scrub, you tore it, and ammunition was nothing. Because if you

08:09:30:00

go I suppose it’s all fixed now if you go to Buna and Lae you see they were big coconut plantations there, everyone had the top blown of them because they fired them off, they reckon that was the favourite trick of the Jap. That’s one of the things the 6th and 7th Divisions told us, never leave a coconut tree standing because they’ll be in the top of it. And that was the same in Lae, the same in Finsch. But we were just on the ground, we just fired into it and the waste of ammunition was absolutely horrific but we used to

08:10:00:00

fire and get it and –
And what sort of impact did you actually witness in terms of the success of your firing? Did you – ?
Oh yes they’d be odd dead ones and you’d fly in half a ton of material and there might be three or four dead but no there wasn’t any great impact. But you used to get them on trails and they used to get you on trails too that you were on. We had a couple of, some men were very good scouts in front, they could almost smell a Jap. And the

08:10:30:00

Papuans could, they reckon they could smell Japs, they reckon they could smell us too. They used to say, “Smell him. Japan man he stink. Japan man he stink.” And they’d go along and you’d have a Japanese and they’d say, “Japan man he stop over there somewhere, Japan man.” And then they’d leave because we were instructed we weren’t to use them in action at all, the ordinary natives, they used the infantry battalion but the ordinary natives we never used, we’d shoot them

08:11:00:00

back. If he said there was a Jap there you could be sure there was and we’d send them back then.
How did you get on with those indigenous people?
We got on well, to the disappointment of all the old New Guinea people that reckoned we treated them too much as equals, which we did we treated them as equals. They carried our food and they carried our clothes anything we wanted and they were good too. But the New Guineans said you’ll ruin this country and we probably did too, they said, “You’ll ruin this country, they’ll be

08:11:30:00

wild when it’s over.” And they haven’t handled it particularly well ever since but –
How important were they in assisting you in what you were doing?
As carters they were indispensable I’d say, completely indispensable. Because if you were behind the line twenty miles back when they landed stuff on the boat they had to take it up twenty mile and they’d take it up. But they weren’t particularly brave and I don’t blame them for it. Their officers

08:12:00:00

never wanted them to get anywhere near firing. I remember one saying to, one of our chaps wanted to send them up closer and he said, “Cut that out, it’s not their war,” he said “It’s not their war it’s our and you don’t send them any further than here.”
What did you think about that?
Oh well I thought he was right. I was always sorry for them, I’ve always had a feeling for the underdog which is maybe why people think I am one but still in all –

08:12:30:00

Did you visit a hospital while you were in New Guinea?
Oh yes I was in hospital with a poisoned foot and I was in hospital –
Can you tell us about that experience?
Oh the hospitals they were very good. They had big hospitals in Port Moresby and all the casualties used to come over, not the, the easy ones, the slighter ones like my poisoned foot and asthma, not asthma malaria they used to go over. And they were particularly good the

08:13:00:00

nurses and the, and the AAMWS or AWAS, AWAS they were or AAMWS I forget which was which, Australian Medical AAMWS they were, they were particularly good. But there again you were there for a fortnight what chance did the average Australian he was bedraggled, he’d had it, he was dirty, he was everything that he shouldn’t be and his clothes were an awful mess and they gave him a new set that didn’t fit him

08:13:30:00

and he was there for a fortnight and these other blokes were living there. They all had girls. It never worried me a great deal I might say but I was prepared to give my love life a complete rest for the war.
Why was that?
Well because it was next to impossible. I wasn’t very handsome so I thought well I’ve got no chance of getting myself a woman so why bother trying.

08:14:00:00

I thought it must have been because you were so exhausted.
Well often when we were in New Guinea – when I was in Moresby I was exhausted. You know I was sick with malaria and with the poisoned foot. No I was sick there, I was really sick. And we came home soon after that and I was, as my mother said I was a walking rake when I came home.
So when you had that conversation with your sister about going back

08:14:30:00

into war did you really think that you didn’t have – ?
I really thought that I was going to be killed. I just said look it’s happened, I went to Tobruk, I went El Alamein, I went to Finschhafen. I came through them all. Went up to Sio, came through them all but you can’t keep going back. Because nearly all the lot of them who’d done it had all been wounded, killed or wounded and were gone and I was one of the few who was still left. Because as I said she said she went home and cried all night.

08:15:00:00

She was only about seventeen and she thought that she’d lost a big brother. And I was I was quite convinced that this is the end it can’t go on. And I went willing enough, I didn’t think I was going to blow through or anything of that sort, I’d go but this awful feeling that I had. Margaret talked about it about four or five years ago one day, she said that was a terrible day, “You did a terrible thing

08:15:30:00

to me” she said.
And you went quite willingly?
Oh I went willingly. Oh yes I got on the boat and went willingly. There was no thought of disappearing. Some of them did and I must admit that quite a few, not a lot, but some did they deserted and – but it never entered my head. I knew I’d go, but I felt sure I wouldn’t come back. As I said

08:16:00:00

I never saw anything to really harm me the whole time I was away.
So when you got to Borneo what was the situation there in terms of the – ?
Well it was quiet. They said there were Japs around but there would only have been seven or eight thousand there. What they ever sent us for – but it’s the terrible thing that has come to mind that we weren’t far away from that Sandakan March. And they didn’t,

08:16:30:00

we didn’t know and the 7th Division was on the other side and they were even nearer and we didn’t know and those blokes were – there were fifteen hundred Australians. They just got marched to their death and that’s why I can never forgive the Japs, I can never ever, ever forgive the Japs for what they did. I know when we were there it was not a, it was not a fighting, like a war where you took prisoners, it was a death march, a death – everybody was killed. If you saw a Jap you killed him and if he was wounded

08:17:00:00

you killed him and that’s all there was to it. Because they’d lie there and four or five of them, we tell stories, that one would be alive, and they’d say oh they’re all dead and they’d walk past and then this fellow would sit up and go bang shoot him in the back. And the idea was then if you saw them there stick another bullet into them to make certain. We were nearly as bad as they were but they started it, we never did it with the Germans or the Italians.
So there were no prisoners

08:17:30:00

being taken?
Very, very few. There were odds ones, there were odd ones too that got captured but they were pretty scarce. And they wanted them too they were always going oh please take a prisoner, take a prisoner if you can but we –
Did you have any occasion to shoot a Japanese in that way?
What? No. What shoot them when they were lying down on the ground? No definitely not, I couldn’t have done it, I could not have done it. If they were dead they were dead and if they were alive

08:18:00:00

I might have rolled them over with my boot, I think I did once or twice and that gave you, you knew then if they were alive or dead. But to just shoot them to – no.
Okay Doug can you tell us about the hospital you saw in Lae?
Oh the one I saw in Lae it was a Japanese one. I think all the 15th saw this one. We were marching along, we were coming along and the Japs had gone

08:18:30:00

and we came across the Jap’s, probably a clearing station or something, and there was a string of Japs there. They’d all been shot, they been, all been shot, they were all dead and there was only person who could have done it and there was no-one ahead of us except Japs. And the Japs must have done it and these men were too sick to walk or to move so they just killed them. It was just the outlook that the Jap had on war. But I don’t know what we’d have done under like circumstance because you read what the Japs had done to our prisoners they were absolutely

08:19:00:00

shocking so but it was it was a very tragic sight really all these young men. They were in a bad state really but I mean they were, and they were all very, very dead – just on the outskirts of Lae it was.
What did you think about the Japanese soldier when you saw that sort of thing?
I hated the Jap always. I never hated the German but I hated the Jap, and I still dislike the Jap. And I’ll be quite honest, I don’t have to tell fibs about them. I

08:19:30:00

think they’re a decayed, not a decayed, they can’t be decayed because they’ve done very, very well but they had their ideas of war were so completely different to everybody else. You read the story of how they killed Newton, the VC winner. He was shot down in front of Lae just before we landed. He swam ashore and they picked him up and just beheaded him, just like that. Terrible.

08:20:00:00

And when you arrived in Brunei what did you know at this stage about the prisoners of war, the Australian prisoners of war and how they had been treated?
I personally didn’t know there were any in Borneo. I think they knew they were there. Well they did know they were there because Ivan Blow had escaped from there, a chap called Ivan Blow, a great footballer he had been, played for Queensland and Australia. And they knew they were there but

08:20:30:00

no-one had told us and whether ever could have got there I don’t know. Well then the last one, there was six men escaped from fifteen hundred, the last man died the other died. He died, he came from Beachmere just out the northern beach here. But those were the sort of things that were – but then again I said we did it, we learned it and that’s what we did.

08:21:00:00

So the Australians did things that you didn’t – ?
Oh yes, yes I always remember if you can go back to El Alamein, one night at El Alamein we made the first attack at Alamein and ah, not the first attack but one of the attacks at El Alamein, I think it was the last one, and we had an Italian who’d been shot in the leg who said he was a warrant officer and he was lying on a stretcher at headquarters. And it was quiet another battalion had gone through

08:21:30:00

it, the firing was a mile in front of us and wasn’t affecting us. And a chap came up whom I knew and I’ll let him be nameless this bloke and he said, “Why’s this bloke carrying on?” Because Italians all cried for their mother, Mamma mia, Mamma mia, “Mamma mia, Mamma mia!” And he said “Where’s this so and so who’s crying for his mother.” I said “Oh he’s over there Mac, he’ll be all right.” He said “Lou’s been talking on the wireless and there’ll be a carrier up and they’ll take him back. He’s a warrant officer, he might

08:22:00:00

have some information.” And he said, “Oh no information, the – ” ‘b’ he said. He walked over and he had a Bren gun around his shoulder and he went, and I walked up to him and I pushed the Bren gun apart and I said, “Don’t kill him Mac, there’s been enough killing tonight.” There was dead everywhere. “There’s been enough killing tonight we don’t want anymore.” He poked at me and said, “Get out of the way bastard head or I’ll shoot you too.” And I thought he meant me so I got out of the way and he just turned around and gave this fellow a full round of Bren and

08:22:30:00

this fellow held up his hand and he was crying to me because he knew I’d try to save him. Well that’s one thing I saw. That’s the worse thing I ever saw in the war that one as far as our troops doing. Just cut him to ribbons and he was finished, he was out of the war, he should have been taken back and he might have had information we wanted but he just shot him and told me if I didn’t get out of the road he said “I’ll shoot you too.” And he knew me this bloke, he knew me, not well

08:23:00:00

but he did know me. But they were terrible days. The days now are much more peaceful but I’m too old to enjoy them now.
Did you say anything to him after he did that?
No, no I wouldn’t dare, I wouldn’t dare because if I’d have said anything to him he could have probably even turned the gun on me even then. He was mad. It turned out later his friend had been killed beside him. And

08:23:30:00

he was very – it was over towards Thompson’s Post and he was very upset. And I never said anything because there was an officer who saw it, same as I did, saw the lot of it and he said nothing so that was it.
Was there any moments during your war experience when you felt that kind of anger towards at the enemy because you’d seen your friends die?
No I never – I suppose it did maybe – I never had anger.

08:24:00:00

I had hate for the Japs that I’ve spoken of before but never for the German and the Italian. Contempt for the Italian I suppose really. But for the German we always had him – you know and when the French behind us at one stage at Mersa Brega somebody said, “They should be twisted around.” He said to me, “The Germans should be beside us and the French should be who we’re fighting.” No I had no hate for the German

08:24:30:00

they were, the Germans were very, very friendly really when you captured they took it well. They were bombastic I know but they were, but they were quite good I think.
So back in Borneo you were talking about Dayaks, the –
Oh yes, oh yes the Dayaks. Everybody that’s been there – they took us up to Ukong, Ukong that’s right Ukong. I went up there with a patrol one day and they were they and oh they put on, and the Japs were only half a mile away too,

08:25:00:00

and they put on a great party there for us and oh we had plenty of scouts out watching them, but they sang and they, and they could dance. As I said beautiful until they were twenty and then like the back end of a bus from then on and –
What did you observe of the Japanese occupation in Borneo in terms of what happened there before you arrived?
Well I don’t know. The Dayaks hated them, they made no secret of it. The German, the um

08:25:30:00

the Chinaman he was, he was always very friendly with us but there’s one thing I always notice about the Chinaman he was always in pretty fair nick, he was in pretty fair condition. And I couldn’t help but feel that he, he was on the side of the man who had the biggest stick or the most rifles, and that’s whose side he was on.
What did you see of the way the Dayaks had treated the Japanese when they were – ?
Oh they’d have treated them anyway that they could – they’d have killed them or they’d have done anything. They were probably much,

08:26:00:00

much more careful before we go there but once they, once we got there it was open season. I remember going along one day and finding Dayaks who had a couple of Jap heads in a wire basket and were smoking them. And he got a stick and he turned to me, he spun them around and he had a big grizzly face and he got this stick and he rubbed all their teeth to brighten their teeth up. But you see now that would make me sick now but I laughed then,

08:26:30:00

Dave Porter and I then we both laughed. And neither of us were hard hearted men. I was a soft hearted man really, I still am.
Why do you think you laughed?
Well they were Japs and I didn’t care what they did to them. But he’d done it and what’s the use of – the fellow’s head was off and scrawny hair and you know he got this stick and brushed it across his teeth.
And

08:27:00:00

he was smoking these heads?
No, no, oh no the Dayak wasn’t smoking, he was smoking the head.
That’s what I was asking.
And that’s what they used to – they used to shrink them to about that size and that’s how they used to shrink them, you know down to the skull and – Oh no I couldn’t do it now. If I went to Limbang now I’d, I’d be admiring the pretty girls who were twenty and that’s all I’d be doing, I’d only be admiring them.
Why did they shrink them? What was the purpose of what they were doing?

08:27:30:00

Because they were trophies, they kept them as trophies. They were trophies with them. They were head hunters and they were trophies and they had them everywhere.
Did you see other evidence of trophies around?
No I didn’t see other evidence. I was only up in Ukong once and I wasn’t too keen on going and that except I as told, because the word was the Japs were in Limbang where they’d all gone so I was quite happy to stop in Limbang. But then the colonel took me

08:28:00:00

and so I had to go as his wireless man. At the finish we ran a telephone line from Limbang back to Brunei, the city of Brunei and every politician in Australian was sending messages of congratulations. And they couldn’t come up by talking, it was too bad you couldn’t hear it so it all had to be taken by Morse. And there was only Dave Porter and I, I think were the only two who could still do it well.

08:28:30:00

And we were hours on this thing listening to these blokes, setting this stuff up, hours. And they were good operators so further back we had to tell them to keep slowing, go slow we hadn’t done it for a couple of years and we were never up to their quality anyway. And I remember I was doing it one day and this fellow I told him to go slow twice and he didn’t do it so I just put my headpiece down and when he finished

08:29:00:00

I said, “Inka morink [IMI].” Which is ‘send it again’. And he somehow, he got on and he screamed in the telephone and you could just hear him, “What are you doing up there!” And he said, “Haven’t you got an operator there?” And I said, “No we’ve only got soldiers up here.” But just then Andy Hogg walked in who was an operator and he knew back – so I said, “Give this fellow a run, Andy.” So Andy did and, he was in the rifle company by then and

08:29:30:00

he asked this fellow to send him a bit faster until he broke him – which we all thought was funny.
So when were these messages of congratulations coming?
Well they were coming from the member for so and so, he’d send a message of congratulations to the men of the 15th Battalion – the local member would do it. He sent us one, I remember taking it. And the archbishop of some place would send you a message of congratulations telling you

08:30:00:00

how proud they all were of you. But they’re not really, people are not really proud of us they just think they are I think.
Why do you say that?
Well I’ve got a book up there because I think the only time they remember it is on Anzac Day – they remember it very well on Anzac Day. Where were you on Anzac Day? Were you at the march in Brisbane?
No I wasn’t.
Okay.
I wasn’t. But we interview from the war every day.
Yes, yes

08:30:30:00

well I mean if you take – it’s amazing if you speak to the ordinary person and you say you were at El Alamein and they’ll say, “And where was that?” There was over a thousand Australians got killed there and three thousand wounded – four thousand out of fifteen. And they don’t even know it happened, they don’t even know where the place is. That’s why I say in the book The Anzacs, it’s supposed

08:31:00:00

to be a classic written by Patsy Adam [Smith]. You ought to read it sometime. She says a woman writes a letter, she was a matron in a hospital and she said, she was a real pacifist, why she ever went I don’t know but she said people are saying we’ll never forget these people and they absolutely mean it, in their own mind they’re mean it, they’re quite sure now that that’s what they mean. But she said ask them in twenty years time and see what sort of a story you get. And that’s just exactly what’s happened I think. It’s that

08:31:30:00

far ago now that they think it’s past.
And how does that affect you?
It doesn’t affect me, oh no I’m not bitter. I don’t want you to get the idea that I’m a bitter man, I’m not, I’m quite a happy man really. I get on quite well with my neighbours and my wife and all that. But I’m sure if you asked them about the war they’d know nothing about it. I remember Joc next door, I made some mention about some place in the Middle East, I don’t know Beirut or some place where it was and she didn’t know where I was

08:32:00:00

talking about.
Do you think we should remember the war?
Well I don’t know if you should remember it but I do believe that they should remember that it was a group of men that are very old now that made this country safe. Because if the group of men hadn’t gone the war could have been lost, I’m talking about a group of men from here, from England and from America and from everywhere, and if we’d have lost we’d have been with a big straw hat chipping

08:32:30:00

beans or something now for a Jap. And I think they should remember in that respect. And they do, they turn out on Anzac Day in great crowds. They reckon there was about a hundred thousand in Brisbane and there would have been too because they were marched, you know they were very, very close. I marched to the end of the march and then I crossed over and walked back to where Marge was with her two sons and their little girl of two and a half who loves her Pa.

08:33:00:00

So Doug where were you when the war finally came to an end?
In Limbang.
Can you tell us about that?
Oh well we knew it was coming, you could smell it, you knew it was coming, but I thought it could have gone on for three months, six months. And ah, and they were still talking about going to Japan. Moreshead, not Moreshead, MacArthur was in the Philippines and we were listed apparently, they tell us now

08:33:30:00

that we were listed to go with him – they were going to pull us out of there and send us with him. And it would have been a blood bath had we gone too because they had, they’d fight until the end. And it wasn’t until we thought it was finishing but there was always a chance, it seemed after five years it seemed too much, too good to be true that it could be over. It was very nearly over we knew that – they were defeated completely. Japan was fighting the world which was absolutely impossible – fighting Britain and France and when

08:34:00:00

they talk about the battleships they’d have twenty battleships and ten aircraft carriers bombing the hiaties out of them at ten miles off the coast so they couldn’t do anything about it, the Japs. They were completed defeated but only when Hirohito [Emperor of Japan] got up and said we are defeated that they knew. But yet people that have been there, friends of mine that went up in the occupation force say they’d never admit they were defeated, they’d never admit it.

08:34:30:00

So when that news came through what was the mood like?
Oh it was great cheering and happiness. Oh yes completely, absolutely completely happy. Yet strangely enough it didn’t matter to me, I was to come home a couple of days later. I was coming in any case, they were pulling us out, anybody. If you had five years service and two of them overseas you were being discharged, and I was coming. The first one got to Australia, John Douglas

08:35:00:00

another friend of mine, he got to Australia the day peace was declared. And he wrote us a letter back and he talked about the Queen Street Commandos that you saw was full of servicemen he said and wonder how many of them have ever seen a shot fired, he said, and they’re bright and bigger, he said, and they were the real heroes. And by the time we got home it was, that was all over you see. But I’m not crooked on it. I came back I was quite happy, happy to come back and –

08:35:30:00

So when you left for Borneo you sort of had that feeling that you weren’t going to come back?
A feeling, that terrible feeling, it was a terrible feeling. And I had it through the early days of Borneo I had it all the time – it’s going to come, it’s going to come, it’s going to come. I’ve been very careful. But it didn’t come obviously and I was never touched. The only thing I’ve got, when a bit of shrapnel hit me at El Alamein on the knee and they put a couple of stitches in it and they said do you want to go down as a wounded? And I said no I do not because my mother will throw a fit if she sees

08:36:00:00

it.
So how badly did that affect you at the time?
Oh nothing at all. I just knew it was only a nick, it was a cut about that long – well it wasn’t it was that long.
And while you were in Borneo with that sort of feeling that you weren’t going to make how did that affect you on a daily basis?
It didn’t make me a good soldier I don’t think, I was being far too careful in Borneo. Not that it was necessary for me to be good, I don’t think so, I don’t think it was, but I was a very careful soldier in Borneo

08:36:30:00

I can tell you.
In what sense were you careful?
Well if they’d say there’s got to be a chap go on patrol, there’s got to be a sig go, well you just said I’ll go, I’ll go. Somebody else would say I’ll go. Not in Borneo, not me, I was the old soldier in Borneo I wasn’t going unless they’d say Mac you’re going and Mac would go then.
So how did you spend most of your time in Borneo?
Oh we were busy we were

08:37:00:00

moving all the time. There was orders coming through the telephone and through the wireless, all the time there was messages coming and you had to handle them and oh yes you were busy. The rifleman wasn’t so busy when he wasn’t out chasing Jap he was doing nothing, he was just lying on his back spine bashing.
So what were the sort of hairiest moments if you like of your time in, in that sort of second part of the war for you, the New Guinea and Borneo campaigns,

08:37:30:00

what were the hairiest moments for you?
Oh Berlimba, without doubt Berlimba. Over a third were casualties. Oh yes it was a horrific morning that, horrific. Yes I always remember that one, first of September.
So once you were in Borneo you didn’t really face that kind of danger?
No I don’t what had happened, I just felt

08:38:00:00

that I’ve gone far enough and I, well I was burnt out probably as a soldier I was burnt out.
Do you think you should have been sent there? Do you think they should have sent you to Borneo?
No I don’t think they should have sent any of us to Borneo, I think it was a wasted campaign, completely. It did nothing towards winning the war. And we got out of it very lightly and so did all of us on our side of Borneo but the ones who landed on Tarakan and Balikpapan

08:38:30:00

they had heavy casualties, 7th Div, and it was so useless, so unnecessary that they fought them. And why I don’t know. I think it was just politicians and generals who wanted to keep their name in front of the public.
So when you heard that peace had been declared what was your own personal reaction?
Oh just completely happy. I knew I was coming

08:39:00:00

home but I was very, very happy just the same. Yes we came home on an LST which was a big floating box. I remember that, I was sick every day but I was happy every day. I remember we came past Green Island on a Sunday afternoon, I remember that. And I said to the chap who was with me, he came from Innisfail this fellow, and I just said just think homes only forty mile away. He said, “Yes doesn’t Green Island look lovely?” And I

08:39:30:00

looked and I said, “I’ve never been to Green Island.” And I said, “This is the closest I’m ever going to get to it.” And I didn’t for twenty years. I lived in Cairns and had never been to Green Island. And people would say have you been to Green Island? No I haven’t been to Green Island. Until Mrs McIntyre came up and she wanted to go to Green Island and somebody had to take her, she was about eighty so I said I’ll take her.
What was it like to see Australia again?
Marvellous. When you came home it was peace, peace, peace. The worse thing

08:40:00:00

when you came home to Australia there was a man called Ernie Lee, he joined up from Cairns, he left all his clothes with my mother, we used to play cricket with him, and he had left all this clothes and of course they were in Australia when the war finished, Ernie got wounded in the Middle East, they were all in Australia and when I got home there was nothing left – every bit of underclothes, every singlet, every shirt, we were all about the same size, they were all gone. And me I had to buy new ones. But I was very lucky in that it was a little

08:40:30:00

town but the draper there was a friend of the family and he said come in and buy what you want. And that’s it there was no talk of coupons or anything.
Interviewee: Doug Maclean Archive ID 1942 Tape 09

09:00:32:00

Doug how difficult was it for you to adjust to civilian life?
It was very difficult indeed, it was very, very difficult. I just saw where I said I’m no longer QX7689 Corporal Maclean, DL, I’m not Mr Maclean. And I found it very, very difficult. I longed for my friends in the army. In a little place like Babinda there was one or two in there but none of them that I was close friends with ever served in the same unit, except one

09:01:00:00

who was secretary of the RSL incidentally. But I mean I was lost. I didn’t want to go to work, I didn’t know what I wanted to do, I just stayed at home. And Mum used to worry of course, she worried herself sick, she was a great worrier my Mum and Dad. But I got over it in the end. I used to go to the pub a lot and it was just a lost three

09:01:30:00

months I think.
Were there a lot of other soldiers like that?
I don’t know. I’ve never really asked them how they readjusted. Most of them had a job. You see if you had a permanent job say in the post office and you came back and you went to work in the job, or in the brewery or wherever you went to work you went back to work and you met, it was different. I came back, I hadn’t had a permanent job. There was work around on the farms but I wouldn’t take it. Oh no I don’t know why

09:02:00:00

I want to go in the pub this afternoon sort of business. If I’d had a job it would have been better. But anyway I got over it and got just a small position and I really drank far too much. I did all through my life. Up until twenty-five years ago I was quite a drinker and foolishly drinking. But at least I’ve had that much

09:02:30:00

strength. When they told me I had to give up smoking that was the finish I never smoked again. You’ve got to give up drinking. If I have a beer now I’ll have a beer, I’ve got it there all the time or if I want a beer I’ll have it but I’ll go three weeks without having one. But I drink wine, I’m allowed to drink wine and I’ll have a glass of wine before tea but I don’t drink much now. In that respect I must have been stronger than I thought because I had no trouble – I worked in the brewery and didn’t drink for, didn’t have a drink,

09:03:00:00

well I used to get a drink and talk with the boys and I’d drink about that much off the top and then throw the rest in the gutter.
You said before you went into the war you weren’t much of a drinker.
No it was the army that taught me, taught me to drink, yes the army taught me.
Yeah a few people have said that to us. What do you think that experience does that – How do you get taught?
You see the average one hasn’t been able to give it up, that’s what gets me. I see it again and again and again. I mean they’ve been told they’ve got to give it

09:03:30:00

up – oh I’d rather – buried a man only the other day and his, and his daughter said in his speech, because he was an old man, he lived to be eighty, she said they told Dad he had to give up smoking and he had to give up drinking. He said I’ll give up smoking but he said I will not give up drink, that’s all, he said I can’t give up drinking and he never did. But he lived to be eighty so he didn’t do too badly. But I just said they said I was only, oh I suppose I was fifty, forty-five, fifty when they told me to give up

09:04:00:00

drinking and I said oh – and I haven’t given it up in that respect. They told me I can drink wine and I can drink spirits but I’m not keen on spirits. And my son he’s got himself a high position and he reckons in a great way he gives me a bottle of whisky. He doesn’t drink much himself. He gave me a bottle of whisky the other day, Glenfiddich, the other day which if you know whisky is about the best you can get. And it’s two-thirds – I’ve never had a drink of it.

09:04:30:00

My wife will have a drink occasionally. And he makes a big time – I’ll give you a bottle of scotch. He gave me another day when I was over there a bottle of Johnny Walker.
Well what do you think those few months after, directly the war had finished how did it help you being able to go to the pub and – ?
Well I don’t know if it did help me at all, it just got – except I think I thought to myself well you’re just being ridiculous, this is silly, you’ve got to go to work, you’ve got,

09:05:00:00

you’ve got to get a living and I went nowhere, I went nowhere. I mean by this time all the female attractions were around and of course I wasn’t as young as I was, I was nearly twenty-nine by this time, or nearly twenty-eight I would have been. But I ah, I just said, so I went back and I said I don’t know what I want to do but I tell you what I’ll go and work on the farms like I used to do. And of course they grabbed me with open arms, we’ll

09:05:30:00

pay you wet or dry sort of business. And ah, but I never stayed. I stayed for six months with one chap and then I joined the PMG. And I didn’t like that so I joined the brewery and that where I saw the war out.
How often did you catch up with men from your battalion?
Oh well there was always a few of them. There was another very great friend I had again, strangely he wasn’t a great friend in the army, we enlisted the same

09:06:00:00

day and we went down and he was um, and he went to Korea later. But I struck him oh since I married Marge again I ran into him. I used to strike him once a year on Anzac Day. And then his wife was a china painter and she took Marge china painting and then he and I became very close friends. It’s strange isn’t it? He died a couple of years ago but we were the closest of friends, and he didn’t drink so it was quite easy for me to be friends with him.

09:06:30:00

Why do you think – what connection did you have?
With him?
Mm?
Nothing, except our wives both liked china painting and then we could talk the war and we talked the war over and we fought the war and won it – a long way quicker than the generals did.
And what else happened in those years after – you met your wife?
Yes I met my wife. There’s one part, I’ll glance over this very, very quickly. I was working in a place for a very short period and I was driving a truck and a man was killed and

09:07:00:00

I was the driver of the vehicle and I just want that forgotten, he was a friend of mine too and it’s like everything else but what was the question you asked? I thought I’d –
So that must have been a difficult experience?
It was a terribly difficult. I’ve had these difficult things that have lived with me ever since and that is one that’s lived with me even every bit as much as with Lou McIntyre.
And then you met your wife?

09:07:30:00

Oh yes and met my wife. Well when I decided I was going to give up playing silly buggers I decided I’d play tennis again so I joined a tennis club. And a great, a great friend of mine, Stan Prior, that I’d known pre-war, we joined this tennis club and she was a tennis club girl and I got to know her and we got to go out. She was secretary to the manager of the Bimbinda Mill. And ah,

09:08:00:00

and we’d go out. She’d been in the forces and, and we had a lot in common and we went out. And that was in forty-seven and forty-nine or was it fifty we got married and, yeah February fifty.
What did you like about her?
About her?
Mm?
She was female I suppose. But no, no she was a lovely girl.
Of course.
No she was she was a lovely girl. Quite good – not

09:08:30:00

spectacularly good looking but quite good looking and she’d been in the army, not in the army, in the air force she knew what it was and she knew what I talked about when I talked about the war and I probably talked too much about it. But we went together for about eighteen months and then he great friend got married and at the end of that I thought well this is it it’s about time I did something about this too and we got married in a

09:09:00:00

few months time then. She lived in Meribah and she was a lovely girl.
Was it easier to settle down when you had – ?
When I was married it was no bother at all, really it was no bother at all. When I settled down I got a job in a little place called Malanda, I don’t know – if you don’t know the Atherton Table you don’t know these places. And I used to go and see her, she lived in Babinda still. And anyway we got married and she moved to Malanda. And then

09:09:30:00

I went to work for the brewery because I preferred it. And we moved to Cairns and we rented for about twelve months and then we built a house and – and from then on we – In about eighteen months, two years time we had a little boy who was a little vulture – he was a naughty little boy, he was his father’s image. My mother told me she said “He’s your image that’s what he is.”

09:10:00:00

So I put up with him, I had too. And then I had the two girls and they were perfect little girls, still are. So he’s grown into the quietest man although he must be, at work he must be a bit savage to be in the job he’s in, he couldn’t do it if he wasn’t.
How did being a father change you?
Oh it did and I loved it, I loved being a father, loved being a father.
What did you like about it?
Oh you know for the first time

09:10:30:00

in my life I had my roots down. I felt, I had my wife, I’ve got a son and I’ve got two daughters and it’s just it, I’m right I’m completely comfortable now. We had a nice little house in Cairns – it wasn’t that little, it was three bedrooms etc but it was a good place. And we were good. She never worked. You didn’t in those days, it was never thought the wife would work.
How often did you dream about the war?

09:11:00:00

No that’s one thing I’m happy to say – I have dreamt about it, it’s no good saying I haven’t, but it’s been very, very, very, very rarely. I don’t dream much at all. I sleep very badly but I don’t dream. And my own fault in it, I should have advised the Department of Veterans’ Affairs I didn’t sleep and I might have been on a bigger pension now, but that’s by the way.
You said that you know you’ve fought across two quite big conflicts,

09:11:30:00

did you come back thinking it was worth it?
I did for a long time. Sometimes I wonder now, I wonder was it all a complete waste, was it a waste. Not for me because I lived but I think of Lou and I think of Jackie Dolgner and Hal Mennery and Phil Knight, and I think of, Nelson Favell, I think of all these blokes. They were all young men in early twenties and what did they see of life? They saw nothing of life, nothing of life at all. And how much

09:12:00:00

one of them could have been the Premier of Queensland for all I know. And whether it was worth it I don’t know but as I said I’m, I look on the bright side, I don’t stop to worry about whether it was true or not, whether it was good or not. And I joined home and I joined the RSL and I decided to give all the work I could to helping the men that couldn’t help themselves, and there were quite a few that couldn’t. Some of them

09:12:30:00

were pretty useless and didn’t deserve the help I don’t think. Because I’ve always – a man who said that didn’t see much action – it’s the nerves that did it to me, it’s the nerves, it was the war that was, is my trouble. Where’d you serve? Oh I went to New Guinea. And I went to Babinda which is a very small place. If ever you get there all you’ll see is the one pub. But it used to be the most famous pub

09:13:00:00

up in Queensland once because it had the biggest bar in Queensland. They took it out and put a smaller one in. And when they had sugar cane that used to be cut by hand labour they had six hundred cutters there during the season and this monstrous bar and those six twenty-sevens around the counter, it was a great old spot. But last time I was in Cairns it was just one bar along the side now, very quiet because there’s no cutters, it’s all done by a dozen machines now.

09:13:30:00

What was the RSL like back then?
The RSL, it was good. I think in the RSL you had to be an imperial soldier, you had to have served overseas to join it. It was quite strong – we had a good sub branch. Rusty Martin the man that, remember I said I carried a man in and I asked the man why he carried the wireless? Well it was Rusty Martin we carried in that night. And Rusty who had a, who didn’t very long, but Rusty was the secretary and

09:14:00:00

we used to along to the RSL and that was the monthly night out that one, it was a big one. We always had a leave pass for that one and you’d drink more than you should then. And I remember one time the publican said he didn’t have any beer, beer was a bit short so he sent us half a dozen bottles of rum down there and we drank the rum and cursed him all night and you know he stayed at home, he never went to the war, he stayed at home and what he made himself a millionaire and look at him now and look at

09:14:30:00

him now the big pot gutted bludger – you can just imagine the discussion with about twenty-five or thirty men sitting around with a rum in their hand. And that was really when I really probably as much as anything stopped drinking because I drank half a bottle of rum that day and when I rode my pushbike home I fell off it and I was batching, because it was a farm, and I was sick for three days and I said no more of this, never again. That was the

09:15:00:00

fullest I’ve ever been in my life that night.
What would the guys talk about when you got together at the RSL?
Well they don’t talk war now. As a matter of fact the RSL to me, I go occasionally, I go and have a drink and I go to an occasional meeting but they, all they seem to worry about now is having this RSL bigger than the one up the road which they’re succeeding in doing – if you’ve seen our RSL it’s a monstrous place. They,

09:15:30:00

it cost them nine million dollars to put there, which they’re paying off too. And they’re good blokes who are running it, I’ve got nothing against them. But the war and them they’re all Vietnam, most of them are Vietnam, and some of them never saw service at all or saw any distance service overseas. But I’ve got no complaints about the RSL. I was very disappointed when they just changed the eligibility of it to let others in. I just felt that they – it would have

09:16:00:00

better to have let die, to fade out completely and make that a servicemen’s club but the majority didn’t think so, so I had no argument with them.
Why did you feel that?
Well if you worked very hard as I did in Cairns to build an RSL there, it was burnt out, and we worked very hard Dick Penny and I, and you think to yourself well all these blokes that never went away they’re going to use this. And I feel

09:16:30:00

they could have spent a lot of their money that they’ve spent on some of the older men that needed it. And there are older men that need it. You see you take men in our situation. When I left work I was getting fifty dollars a week more than anybody else in the office but I was getting a hundred and seventy dollars a week. Imagine a hundred and seventy dollars a week and now I suddenly find myself, I’ve got to live my life where everybody’s getting six and seven hundred dollars a week but I’m expected to

09:17:00:00

financially be able to live in this life. I can to a certain extent, if I’m careful we can but ah, but there’s plenty of people who can’t. There was no superannuation. My wife worked for the RSL for twenty-three years – she never got a penny of superannuation. I did, I got it at the brewery but it wasn’t much.
How did the Vietnam vets [veterans] and the World War II vets get on in the RSL?
Well the Vietnam boys have done pretty well. Well I do believe that they Department of Veterans’ Affairs

09:17:30:00

have been very kind to them in a lot of ways. I think they’ve been handled a lot more gently than we were. There were so many of us it was impossible for them to give them – but a number of them, the Vietnam boys are high graded pensions, TPI [Totally and Permanently Incapacitated Pension] and all that. They amaze me, I’m not, but it amazes me that they are. But they’re good, they work hard, they’ve got the RSL but I don’t think they’ve really got the idea of

09:18:00:00

building this RSL up, which they’re doing well too I may say, and I enjoy going their myself.
What have you enjoyed about the kind of retirement years? What has been enjoyable for you?
Well the greatest interest I have is my family. You see now it was a very tragic thing I’ve had a few, I’ve been unfortunate in life. My sister said to me when we left Cairns she said “No wonder you left Cairns, Doug,

09:18:30:00

you haven’t got very happy memories of it.” My first wife Gwen who was a fine lady and she was a fine girl and everything that I would have wanted and she, and I’m not being detrimental to Marge in any way this because she also is very good, but she was an asthmatic. And one night I was talking on the phone, I was district secretary of the RSL, I was talking to another, the treasurer, and she was in the bedroom, we’d

09:19:00:00

washed up, all the kids, the two older kids were working, they’d gone out and she came out and said, “You’ll have to ring the – you’ll have to take me to the hospital, I’m sick.” I said, “Will I get the car out?” She said, “Get the ambulance, I want to get there quick.” Well she got to the car, she couldn’t walk out we had to carry her out, and from being quite well she never reached the hospital. Well that was a complete and absolute tragedy in my life.
How old were you at that point?
Well me, she was, she was

09:19:30:00

forty-three, forty-four and I would have been fifty, fifty-one perhaps. Because when the phone rang, she and I were home, we took, we left to go because I said we knew she’d been in – if you are an asthmatic you often go to hospital and get a needle and you come back and you’re better. And I just said to Jenny this will be, this will be Mummy ringing for us to go and get her, go and

09:20:00:00

put your shoes on and we’ll go and pick her up. And the telephone rang and a man said, “Mr Maclean?” I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “Your wife is dead.” And he hung up and that’s all he said, as bitter as that and anyway then for seven years I was on my own. Brought up Jenny from a girl of twelve, eleven, eleven until she went to work and then I decided it was time, I’d looked after her, and then Marge and I had known each other for twenty years

09:20:30:00

and we decided to get together. She was a very attractive woman Marge when she was younger, well she was even then, well she still is quite not that bad now. She’s not here I can’t run her down anymore but she is she’s been very good and very – I don’t think I’m hard to live with, I’m not but I do get a little bit moody sometimes when my mind goes back to past times but I’m well and I’ve got no

09:21:00:00

complaints. We did a terrible lot of work in the RSL, she and I and did my first wife too. And I was district secretary and that even meant being district secretary meant keeping a home where we had forty odd old diggers. And it’s still there, I go and look at it when I go up. There’s none of the old diggers there that were there in my time. But the day I left was the day they put a full time man on,

09:21:30:00

the day I left. And they were paying me a car allowance of fifty dollars a week because I used to go, I wasn’t at work, I used to come from home every day. And then I worked it out, when I said I wanted to leave worked it out they could afford to pay a new man full time and they did and it’s been so ever since. They then built him a house on the place and he lives on the property now – well it’s not him it’s another man now but –
How important is Anzac Day to you?
Very important.

09:22:00:00

At least I said you wonder sometimes if the public remember, well you know that day they do remember. And I love it when we march and we come back and sit where Marge is sitting with her two sons and my own son was further up the road, I saw him and his wife, and sat there and watched the people and just listen to them talking. You feel quite proud of yourself.
Who do you march with?
The 2nd Infantry Battalion.
Yes but

09:22:30:00

but this year you marched with one of your family members.
I take my grandson with me, the little fellow with tie on in the middle over there, he’s twelve. And he’s nearly, he’s up to here on me. His father’s six foot four and he’s going to be a monster.
Does he understand the war experience do you think?
Yes he does, he does, he understands it more than any of them I think. He’s the only one of my children that has really followed – the girls I think they got sick to death of it because their mother and I and Marge and I were doing twenty hours

09:23:00:00

a week, other than work working on the RSL and I think they got quite sickened of it. Because after – when Jenny went to work, I remember the last couple of years I said, “Would you like to do my typing?” I said, “I’ll give you the fifty dollars if you like, if you’ll do it for me?” “Oh no, no, no,” she said, “I don’t want to do – ” She wanted to work at the bank and get out when she was finished. But it’s ah, it was very, very enlightening working

09:23:30:00

at the RSL. I had some good trips I made right up. I’ve been to nearly every RSL in Queensland I think in my time, certainly along the coastal area. And I’ve been to twenty-three state congresses. But yet it’s the funniest thing, this is what happens when you get old, every year they have a thing where they start off, and all the old people that were in there they call them in and they have a dinner and it was very good. And then about four years ago

09:24:00:00

I just said to Marge one day, we never got invited to the RSL and I asked two or three people and they dropped all the blokes, we’re all gone, we’re all off the list. She worked in the place for twenty-three years, she’s not invited either.
Oh that must have felt awful.
But she doesn’t know anybody there now, she wouldn’t know a person if went there now, because we’ve been married twenty-four years. She wouldn’t know a single person. But that’s what happened that’s the, you’ll find this some day, that’s the penalty of age, that’s what happens.

09:24:30:00

At your age they think you’re old time, I say I can remember the day when I used to earn a hundred and twenty dollars a week. I finished at a hundred and seventy but I remember when it was a hundred and twenty and they say oh what’s this silly old goat talking about, it was never like that? But it was.
When you look back now at your war experience what are you most proud of?
Well I suppose I’m most proud of that I was there, well in the

09:25:00:00

2/15th which is probably the best known Queensland battalion. We’ve still got our organization going. As a matter of fact I think you might be going to see the secretary of it, John – Johnny – oh he comes from Herbiton too. He enlisted the same day as me, that’s how good my memory is. Anyway John is there although he’s very sick poor old John. But that’s the most famous unit from Queensland I think. The only one that

09:25:30:00

keeps going, that’s kept itself alive really. And we’re really proud of that and well I don’t know other than that really what I’m proud of, but I’m proud I went to the war and I can look the whole world in the face because I owe not any man.
You were saying at the beginning you don’t think you were very extraordinary but we see some of your experiences as extremely brave. You don’t look back and think that?
I don’t think I was very brave because I was too frightened.

09:26:00:00

Because I don’t think the man that was brave was brave. He doesn’t know what it was like to be frightened, to do something when you are, when you are frightened –
That’s brave.
Like those attacks in El Alamein, every night you’d go and there’d be fixed lines of machine gun fire and you’d say they’re only five or six yards in front of me, if I get in front of them I’ll be right but I’ve got to get those six yards and you’d go and they’d still be firing at every six yards in front of you. You could see the

09:26:30:00

light go past as they went, they were firing them at what oh I forget at about, but they were firing these at every fifth ball that had a light, they knew where they were going, it glowed as it went past. People here they talk, they see pictures where bullets go bang, they don’t, they go – as they go, if they’re going close within a couple of feet of you they give an awful click

09:27:00:00

as they go past.
Well most, most people haven’t experienced that kind of situation, you know it’s quite an extraordinary –
Well, no, no, no and that’s when I was scared. Nearly every night we made an attack at El Alamein and you know you were going and then you’d get amongst them and if they were Italians they’d surrendered and if they were Germans they fought it out, and every night you had this. El Alamein was, really I believe that El Alamein was than Tobruk but nobody, everybody’s forgotten El Alamein now. And it was probably the

09:27:30:00

beginning of the end, for the Germans it was, the British never lost, lost another battle really after El Alamein.
You helped win the war, do you think we won the peace?
No I don’t think, you know the strongest country? Look at Germany, a very wealthy country and very strong country. And look at Italy also very wealthy, quite wealthy and quite strong but I don’t think we won the peace I think the

09:28:00:00

peace just gabbled along after the war. Others might think we won it but I can’t see how it can be possibly said that we did. No. My happiest memories probably after the war is being in the RSL too. I was very happy in the RSL because I was I was very busy and doing a great point and my two wives, Gwen knew nothing about the RSL

09:28:30:00

when she got married and she would never join – well she couldn’t join it. They wanted to make her an honorary member and she wouldn’t she said I did nothing, I served in Australia and that’s all and had she been alive when they opened the thing up she wouldn’t have joined it, she was quite emphatic about it. But she was proud of what I’d done and she knew that I was doing what I thought was right and I believe it was right too what I was doing. But no-one else would do it.

09:29:00:00

There’s another been another district secretary in Queensland that’s went for twenty-three years. I think about three years has been the maximum for anyone. But I, I enjoyed it really. A man called Dick Penny used to live in Cairns, he was the – he was from the 2nd Machine Gunners, he was, he was a good bloke, he worked very hard for the RSL but he was fully retired. And they offered me the job of full time Secretary of the Cairns RSL but I wouldn’t take it. It was more money than I was getting at the brewery but it was

09:29:30:00

still, you were at everybody’s beck and call and my wife, oh granny, she just said you’ll never be your own master if you do. Here you can tell them to go jump in the lake if you like and if you’re working there you never will be able to, and that suited me and I stopped where I was at the brewery.
Well maybe we can kind of wrap that up, I mean do you have finally thing that you’d

09:30:00:00

want to say about your experiences in the war or after?
I don’t think so. The only thing I can say I’m very proud that I served in the 2/15th Battalion. We covered a wide scope and whether we did a great deal towards winning the war I’m never too sure but we certainly played our part, we did our best and that’s the way it is and there’s life going on now and I’m very happy that I can look

09:30:30:00

back. And I have some great friends. I’ve got two of them down in Ballycara [Retirement Village] here, who both I served with and they’re good blokes and I’ve got some good friends. A good wife, Marge, she went here and brought all the brains to the place because she worked in state headquarters. And Gwenny was good and Marge was extra good as the secretary. And we’ve had a happy, in a lot of ways we’ve had a happy life. But as I’ve said before they’ve been a couple of terrible disasters that

09:31:00:00

hit in my life and they sit on my shoulder a bit that’s the only problem that I’ve got. But that’s the lot. Thank you very much.
Thank you Doug, I appreciate it.
INTERVIEW ENDS

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